What is MMA'S Impact on Kung-Fu Should MMA be its' on Art Now?

[jstreet]

How has MMA changed or impacted Kung-Fu? There is no denying the impact UFC has had on the Martial Arts World. More and more schools offer multiple styles. I know you will have traditionalists and revisionists argue these points, but MMA has its place in the Martial Arts world, for now anyway. Does it have staying power? Should it now be it's own Art? Your thoughts?

[Ray Pina]

MMA has pushed me to get better .... it should push every MA to get better. Now there is a venue to test all ranges of combat. Before I had an interest in fighting MMAists, I was content to have what I thought was good striking, thought I couldn't be taken down.

Now I know better.

I don't think you need to train MMA, but I think you need to train whatever you train as realistically as possible against all ranges of fighting.


MMA as it's own style? I think it has already become that. The only down side is when you don't specialize, you can be pretty good at ground, pretty good and striking, pretty good at kicking. I think MMA is best when someone already has a strong background in either wrestling, BJJ or a striking art. But to start fresh, I would think it would take more time then many want to put it or expect. 3 year MMA are well rounded, but no one weapon is razor sharp. But that can go for any style I guess.

[MasterKiller]

MMA is training format...a set of rules; not a style.

Kung Fu can (and should) be trained like MMA. My kung fu has progressed tremendously over the last 18 months since I started training MMA fulltime.

[MasterKiller]

The only down side is when you don't specialize, you can be pretty good at ground, pretty good and striking, pretty good at kicking.

I would argue that CMA has always been about this...a little bit of striking, a little bit of throwing, a little bit of wrestling. I think it tries to produce a more well-rounded fighter when compared to other traditional arts.

[Ray Pina]

I would argue that CMA has always been about this...a little bit of striking, a little bit of throwing, a little bit of wrestling. I think it tries to produce a more well-rounded fighter when compared to other traditional arts.

Then where are all the kung fu fighters?

[David Jamieson]

Then where are all the kung fu fighters?

You're saying that some mma guys haven't trained in kungfu? or karate? or any number of other things.

mma is getting to a point where because of the venue, training methods are aligning to work towards competition in the venue.

where's all the mma guys at kungfu tourneys is basically the other side of that coin.

besides ray, don't you call yourself a kungfu fighter?Aren't you looking for some mma action on a regular basis?

mma is not what you train, it's how you train, it's "mixed martial arts" and there's a few guys on the circuit who have trained in traditinal martial arts.

so "where's teh kungfu fighters" is moot.

[Ray Pina]

I think all good fighters focus more on the HOW than the WHAT.

Everyone can shoot, but serious fighters focus on how they shoot, the precision. Everyone can punch. I don't train punching the bag or the air nearlrly as much as I train coordinating my movement so my punched come from driving off the foot.

I agree that MMA is a set of rules on one hand, but I think we're fooling ourselves if we deny MMA for the most part means some form of grappling (grecco, BJJ, etc.) + Thai kicking + boxing.

I also think we'd be fooling ourselves if we really don't know why MMA's don't come to Kung Fu tournaments.... if you don't know, I'll be the bearer of bad news: they think we're a joke... and our rules won't allow them to fight the way they train to fight.

Now I know you can argue the same, that they won't let you poke their eye, etc. etc. But inside you don't need me to explain the difference... that Kung Fu won't even let them punch their nose, take them down. Forget about dirty tactics. Even my niece knows kicking me in the balls hurt.

I don't mean to come down hard on Kung Fu. I love Kung Fu. But if it's to become something we need to stop the self denial. We have to look at ourselves in the mirror and say, "we're fat." .... it's not the mirror and we don't have a glandular problem.

[David Jamieson]

my point is ray, were i to enter a competitive match, then it would be "me" fighting and no the style i train in.

i would change every thing i am doing to fit the venue, but i wouldn't abandon the principles of engaging in combat. I would look at what I have and can use and that would fit with the rule set and teh rest I would leave behind, I am not interesting in poking someones eye, or any of that.

I personally think the whole mma v kungfu is an empty argument that is not perpetuated amongst for real mma types anyway. Just keyboard warriors play that story out over and over again for whatever reason.

[jstreet]

Good responses. How has it affected schools in your area? Has MMA changed Kung Fu's philosophy on sparring for instance? Instead of punching air, do schools now use more bags and one on one sparring to better develop punching power and motor skills?

[lkfmdc]

Originally, TCMA was MMA.... everyone needs to go back to the four character concept

KICK
STRIKE
TROW (wrestle)
SUBMIT (chin na)

But Chinese martial arts people need to also drop the attitude about how it has to be CMA or they won't use it.... that isn't "traditional" at all. Old timers cross trained, lots of western boxing and Japanese judo influence in the old timers. Maybe even more than they want to let on ;)

Think of fighting a war, you are on a battlefield and you are out of ammunition or your weapon misfires, there is an AK 47 sitting in front of you. Do you not use it because it's the weapon made by the enemy or do you pick it up and fire?

You can learn a lot from non TCMA, Muay THai, boxing, western wrestling, Judo, BJJ etc and still keep your frame and your unique concepts

[Knifefighter]

MMA has definitely become its own style. It is a unique combination of standup, clinch, takedown, and ground.

MMA's biggest influence on TMA's is probably opening their practioners' eyes to the importance of grappling and groundfighting.

MMA has also had a huge impact on modern methods of CQC weapons training and self-defense training.

[gabe]

So called reality based martial artists distinguish MMA from themselves. Some train exactly the same arts, but not for competition or rule-based situations. I've been lectured to before that you are not a MMAst if you do not enter competitions. Just semantics I guess. But intentions and motivations do differ, which both impact strategy and training methods.

[Green Cloud]

For Christ sake, MMA is not a style it is what it is MMA. As far as any style goes the idea of becoming well rounded is all part of advancement in any art.

As far as CMA is concerned it already utilizes grapling, a vast array of boxing tech, throwing and ground fighting tech.

Is it important to adapt CMA tech. to win at MMA ??? Yes it is if you want to become a champion in that sport.

For most of us that have half a brain and careers and family and what not MMA is not what you want to do. Lets face it most guys that want to compete in the UFC don't have much going for them.

The only guys that make any money are the smart ones that aren't fighting but promoting.

[shaolinboxer]

MMA is also more about creating professional athletes than most CMA. It's like boxing...there are hobbiests and professionals tied to huge pro league. Although some CMAists are certainly professional martial artists, it's a different type of vocation.

That makes it different from CMA in a big way in terms of training and personalities.

[MasterKiller]

For most of us that have half a brain and careers and family and what not MMA is not what you want to do.. I have a huge, massively rotund brain, a career (well, a job that pays me a lot), and family and I train MMA. Training and fighting for a living aren't the same things. You'd think Kung Fu guys would know that by now. :rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

Regardless of whether or not some TMA's have "always" had some locks, clinch, sweep, throw, and ground within them - in addition to striking and kicking...it's undeniable by this point that MMA's and the VENUES through which they proceed have had an enormous impact on TMA's...

if for no other reason than the intense competition (and real, no BS contact) has made it crystal clear that the emphasis on striking/kicking - to the neglect of the other phases of fighting (clinch and ground)...

doesn't cut it anymore.

[Green Cloud]

MK I think you are taking what I said out of context. I wasn't talking about training in MA but fighting for a living, there just isn't any money in it.

I'm sure you are very successful, but realy are you training to become the next ultimate fighter???

The fact is if becoming the UFC champion is not your plan Kung Fu makes sense for staying in shape learning how to have the edge on someone in the street.

Yea yea yea I know MMA works to in the street what ever Just wanted to ad that.

[Mr. Horse]

Wasn't JKD the first MMA? WAS Bruce Lee the first MMAist?:confused:

[PangQuan]

its full circle. this is how things often work.

so-called MMA, is just a format of how fighting REALLY is. there just happens to be popular styles people box themselves into to fit this format.

bjj+MT+boxing is most popular, but not required.

its just a twist of modern cultural meshing. thats all. now days we can actually get a guy to train japanes, thai, and western arts all at one time. 500 years ago, this just was not possible.

there is no such thing as mixed martial arts. there are martial arts. some people box themselves in and use only from a selected platter they have put on a pedistle, then there are people who use combat effective material.

ie: the gladiator. use what works, when it works, how it works, IF it works.

there is no seperation but the seperation that is placed by the ego of man. i train in a CMA school, but show me an applicable and effective african wrestling technique. ill keep it.

:rolleyes:

[Green Cloud]

Just because MMA is televised doesn't mean that it has any influence on CM. Seriously think about how many styles of kung fu there is, do you think all these styles were created just because MMA would one day become a sport???

Kung Fu is a highly developede art and has survived all these years due to the fact that it's effective.

I'm not saying that all kung fu people train effectively for fighting. One thing for sure advanced practitioners of Kung Fu understand its effectiveness when it come to the street.

Will sport MMA ever influence something that's been evolving for over two thousand years???

Every now and than a student will aproche me and say Sifu look what I made up, and I always respond, " It's already been done".

[Knifefighter]

Will sport MMA ever influence something that's been evolving for over two thousand years???

Yes, the smart practitioners and instructors will pick up a variety of useful things from MMA.

The dumb ones will continue to think they already have all the answers.

[MyDrills]

MMA's Impact on KungFu, In my view, it has made a lot of close minded CMAist realize that forms is not what makes them a good fighter.


MMA can be an art now but unlike traditional styles where you have lineage, etc etc. This is non classical hybreed or freestyle fighting as the more appropriate term.

Advantages of TCMA/CMA
-Wide variations of striikes
-Speed Accuracy
-Better stances, distance, balance
-Training emptyhand vs bladed weapons
-More techniques vs multiple opponents
-Breathing, relaxation, econimical
-simplest of all, defense against groin kicks!!!


Advantage of MMA
-can win without hurting opponent (by submission)
-a good martial arts and a sport at the same time.
-less brutal than TCMA, more friendly to opponent
-better training format


I became more open to change after watching a lot of MMA fights. We must admit that some TCMA moves are already outdated or no longer applicable. We can throw away those but keep what is still useful. We can pickup new moves or technique from other style.


chill :) :) :)

[MasterKiller]

I'm sure you are very successful, but realy are you training to become the next ultimate fighter???

The fact is if becoming the UFC champion is not your plan Kung Fu makes sense for staying in shape learning how to have the edge on someone in the street.

I'm not training to fight. I'm training to train.

When I was practicing kung fu full time, I wasn't training to fight, either.

If all you want is a good workout, I would argue MMA is better. It's extremely cardio oriented. Kung Fu keeps me flexible, but MMA keeps me in bikini shape.;)

Seriously, I dropped 10 lbs the first 3 weeks of MMA, and I was already in pretty good shape from my years of Northern Shaolin workouts.

Plus, all the grappling and grip fighting toned my arms up nicely.

I like Kung Fu, I practice Kung Fu, I still consider myself a Kung Fu Fighter, and I even run my own Kung Fu program now, but it makes more sense to train Kung Fu the MMA way that it does to train Kung Fu the Kuing Fu way.

MMA is like this mean biologist who keeps pointing at the fossil record of fighting as proof of evolution, and traditionalist are the Christian Scientists plugging their ears and screaming "Chinese invented fighting 2,000 years ago and it's never ever changed."

[MyDrills]

Wasn't JKD the first MMA? WAS Bruce Lee the first MMAist?:confused:


NO!! I think GM Wan Lai Shen was the first GM of MMA!!!

[ShaolinTiger00]

MMA is like this mean biologist who keeps pointing at the fossil record of fighting as proof of evolution, and traditionalist are the Christian Scientists plugging their ears and screaming "Chinese invented fighting 2,000 years ago and it's never ever changed."

That is beautiful.

[jstreet]

Interesting obsevations. I hope MMA continues to grow myself and it makes sense to use anything that works, regardless of its origin. Bruce Lee combined many different styles, if it works, it works.

[Fu-Pow]

I think somebody said it best that MMA is a venue, not a style.

A combination of training that has worked in this venue is boxing +Muy Thai+BJJ/wrestling.

Those styles were naturals for MMA because they were already geared towards and had training methods that had proven effective in their own venues.

That doesn't mean that there won't be a better training combo that comes along for MMA.

Who knows, maybe it will be Wing Chun + Shui Chao + BJJ?

I think that as fighters look for methods that others don't have they will eventually "rediscover" the Chinese styles.

I guess people that consider themselves "kung fu" won't compete in MMA because they don't consider "ground fighting" to be authentically Chinese. So you will probably see those people more in San Da/San Shou types of venues where you can throw but not grapple.

Plus the Chinese version of grappling is all stand up and particularily nasty. I recently saw that standing armbar footage posted on here and it reminded me of the kinds of Chin Na that you see in Chinese martial arts. Good for self-defense but not particularily well suited to a competition where you expect the fighters to have a "career."

[Knifefighter]

I think somebody said it best that MMA is a venue, not a style.

MMA used to be only a venue. Now it is both a venue and a style. The components of MMA (standing striking, clinch, takedown and ground are all done differently when incorporated into the MMA format than when done individuaully as boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, or BJJ).



Plus the Chinese version of grappling is all stand up and particularily nasty. I recently saw that standing armbar footage posted on here and it reminded me of the kinds of Chin Na that you see in Chinese martial arts. Good for self-defense but not particularily well suited to a competition where you expect the fighters to have a "career."

Complete BS.

Those standing techniques are not seen often, not because they are so brutal, but because they are very low percentage. When they do occur, they are almost accidental. That arm drag to the arm bar was a fluke. That is a technique that is done all the time and usually results in nothing more than getting an angle.

Believe me, if those "brutal" standing Chi Na techniques were so effective, MMA fighters would be using them all the time. MMA fighters are not concerned with shortening their opponents' careers. They are concerned with winning.

There is a reason most submissions happen on the ground and it has nothing to do with "brutality", or lack thereof.

[Green Cloud]

Yes, the smart practitioners and instructors will pick up a variety of useful things from MMA.

The dumb ones will continue to think they already have all the answers.


That's a good statement but it's backwards. I think a smart MMa should take Kung Fu to improve his game.

The dumb MMA with an abtuse mind set will continue to think that the MMA way is the only way to fight.

[ShaolinTiger00]

it's not the ONLY way to fight, but it is beyond question that it is the BEST way to fight.

[Fu-Pow]

Complete BS.

Those standing techniques are not seen often, not because they are so brutal, but because they are very low percentage.


What determines the "percentage" is the competitors ability to execute the technique on a consistent basis. Just because MMA competitors haven't figured out a way to do this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Harder to pull off, yes, but if falling on the ground in battle=death then you find a way. ;)

[BlueTravesty]

don't most MMA organizations prohibit excessive small-joint manipulation? That would effectively take a LOT of Chin Na out of the picture. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea to take that out. I've been on the recieving end of quite a few of those locks, and even after putting ALL my resistance against them they're pretty vicious. I can only imagine what would happen if the person applying them decided to forego slow, even pressure and just *SNAP!*

Ouch.:eek:

[Merryprankster]

That's a good statement but it's backwards. I think a smart MMa should take Kung Fu to improve his game.

When somebody with a solid, mostly TCMA background, who doesn't have a bunch of wrestling/boxing/muay thai titles prior to their TCMA experience manages to succeed in the ring, they will.


The dumb MMA with an abtuse mind set will continue to think that the MMA way is the only way to fight.

The MMA way is to train hard, drill hard and occasionally go full contact with appropriate safety gear.

How is that a bad way to train to fight?

Now, since I happen to think these distinctions are meaningless, except as a convenient shorthand, the conversation seems a bit moot to me...but these sorts of things are always fun.

[Knifefighter]

That's a good statement but it's backwards. I think a smart MMa should take Kung Fu to improve his game.

The dumb MMA with an abtuse mind set will continue to think that the MMA way is the only way to fight.

Almost all MMA guys will take whatever works effectively from whatever source and use it.

"Works effectively" being the operant words.

[Knifefighter]

Just because MMA competitors haven't figured out a way to do this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.


Well, Fu-Pow, since you seem to be an expert on these things, you must know how to do them, right?

How about entering a few MMA competitions to pull off some of these "brutal" standing techniques against other fighters for the world to see? It wouldn't take you too long of "brutally" beating other fighters with these "brutal" standing Chi Na techniques to make quite a rep for yourself. I guarantee you would have MMA fighters lining up at your door to pay you some pretty big bucks for seminars.

Funny how all the people who know these "brutal" techniques never venture out into a venue where the rest of the world can see them performed live against other skilled, resisting opponents. The truth of the matter is, more than likely, the people espousing these "brutal" standing grappling and locking techniques have never actually performed them against other skilled, resisting opponents.

[BlueTravesty]

KnifeFighter does have a very good point. We have to learn how to apply such techniques in actual "stress testing." (To clarify, the resistance I spoke of earlier was more muscular resistance than "combat resistance" i.e. the necessary contact to APPLY the lock was already made, and I would resist the lock, rather than "resisting" via free-sparring.)

The book "Chin Na in Groundfighting" by Al Arsenault and Joe Faulise looks like a pretty good attempt at breaching the subject. I only flipped through it when I saw it at Barnes and Noble, but it looked like a HUGE book, and I don't really have the time or money to spend on MA books as a rule. However, I'm thinking of showing it to one of the senior students at the My Jhong class I'm taking. He used to train at the Serra Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu academy (I can't remember what belt he said he had) when he lived in New York, so I'm sure he'd have an enlightening perspective on it.

[Fu-Pow]

Well, Fu-Pow, since you seem to be an expert on these things, you must know how to do them, right?

How about entering a few MMA competitions to pull off some of these "brutal" standing techniques against other fighters for the world to see? It wouldn't take you too long of "brutally" beating other fighters with these "brutal" standing Chi Na techniques to make quite a rep for yourself. I guarantee you would have MMA fighters lining up at your door to pay you some pretty big bucks for seminars.

Funny how all the people who know these "brutal" techniques never venture out into a venue where the rest of the world can see them performed live against other skilled, resisting opponents. The truth of the matter is, more than likely, the people espousing these "brutal" standing grappling and locking techniques have never actually performed them against other skilled, resisting opponents.

You are lame. Goodbye. :p

[Knifefighter]

You are lame. Goodbye. :p

I'm lame because I've been grappling for 20 years and I get irritated when people who have next to no grappling experience pontificate about these "brutal" standing grappling and locking techniques that no one seems to be able to demonstrate publicly?

I'm lame because when someone says they can do something that I have never seen done consistently that is in an endeavor that I have two decades of experience in, I want them to back it up with some kind of verifiable and repeatable demonstration?

I'm lame because I want some kind of proof when someone states that the professionals in the field are somehow missing the boat on how to apply these special techniques?

I'm lame because a person claims there are special techniques, techniques that could revolutionalize the practice of MMA, and I want to see some kind of demonstrable verification of this?

Hmmm...
OK...

[yenhoi]

Your lame because your on Fu-pows ignore list.

lamer

techniques are more deadly when performed in secret

:eek:

[SiuHung]

How has MMA changed or impacted Kung-Fu? There is no denying the impact UFC has had on the Martial Arts World. More and more schools offer multiple styles. I know you will have traditionalists and revisionists argue these points, but MMA has its place in the Martial Arts world, for now anyway. Does it have staying power? Should it now be it's own Art? Your thoughts?

How has mma impacted kung fu? Haha, well, it's revealed a lot of baloney. It's going to keep getting harder and harder to find students willing to believe how deadly and dangerous thier non-fighting teacher's kung fu is.
Seriously, now that UFC is on Spike TV, like it or not, mma is going to be brought to a much wider audience. The next few generations of martial arts wannabes is going to look to mma, and unless kung fu gets in the mix on a much larger scale than a few individuals, it's going to continue to die its slow death.

Mma certainly does have staying power as well. Boxing is rapidly losing its audience. Kickboxing has a small following in the US, and there seems to be more crossover of fighters from sports such as muay thai and wrestling into mma...because they know that's where the future is.

I'm saying all this as a "traditional CMA guy". The kung fu community in general just doesn't have the relevant experience to prepare a fighter for professional level mma. There may be a few exceptions of course, but these are few and far between.
On a positive note, I've heard more rumblings as of late, and noticed more interest in competitive CMA based fighting such as lei tai, sanshou, sanda, etc...Hopefully, this will snowball into bigger and better things. Otherwise, the naysayers who staunchly declare that kung fu can't be used in a ring will drive the final nails into the kung fu coffin.

[Fu-Pow]

The next few generations of martial arts wannabes is going to look to mma, and unless kung fu gets in the mix on a much larger scale than a few individuals, it's going to continue to die its slow death.

I don't really see kung fu dying a "slow death", I'd venture to guess there are more kung fu practitioners worldwide than "mixed martial artists."



Mma certainly does have staying power as well. Boxing is rapidly losing its audience. Kickboxing has a small following in the US, and there seems to be more crossover of fighters from sports such as muay thai and wrestling into mma...because they know that's where the future is.

As a venue or as an art?



I'm saying all this as a "traditional CMA guy". The kung fu community in general just doesn't have the relevant experience to prepare a fighter for professional level mma. There may be a few exceptions of course, but these are few and far between.

I think that you have a point there as far as experience in that venue. I think we need to carefully make the distinction between MMA as a venue and MMA as a style. I don't see any reason that kung fu practitioners can't compete in a MMA venue if they are good enough. Is the MMA "style" the best (ie boxing, muy thai and bjj)....I don't think so...I think it depends as much on the practitioner as the "style." Kung fu is going to be at a big disadvantage in the MMA venue because most don't train to fight on the ground.

If kung fu players are able to use their full arsenal of joint manipulation then it might not need to go there. Alternatively, a kung fu guy could cross-train in ground fighting.




On a positive note, I've heard more rumblings as of late, and noticed more interest in competitive CMA based fighting such as lei tai, sanshou, sanda, etc...Hopefully, this will snowball into bigger and better things. Otherwise, the naysayers who staunchly declare that kung fu can't be used in a ring will drive the final nails into the kung fu coffin.

I think that the preferred combat sport of kung fu will be san da/san shou where ground fighting is not allowed and joint manipulation is not allowed. This allows the fullest range of techniques from kung fu to be utilized and insures that the practioners will be able to actually function in real life after fighting.

IMO, some of the most effective self-defense techniques in kung fu involve joint manipulation. Some styles are built almost entirely around it. However, because of the permanent damage that this type of fighting can cause it cannot and should not be part of a combat sport.

Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were "battlefield" types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

However, I don't see any reason that somebody couldn't cross train there stand up kung fu game and groundfighting and do well in a MMA event.

[Fu-Pow]

don't most MMA organizations prohibit excessive small-joint manipulation? That would effectively take a LOT of Chin Na out of the picture. Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea to take that out. I've been on the recieving end of quite a few of those locks, and even after putting ALL my resistance against them they're pretty vicious. I can only imagine what would happen if the person applying them decided to forego slow, even pressure and just *SNAP!*

Ouch.:eek:

They are effective because they don't require you to be strong. However, they do require more skill to execute correctly.

And before everybody jumps down my throat....yes, if you can't execute more simple techniques in real time then you probably can't execute complicated joint locking...so learning how to execute under pressure is still important....you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

I just saw it yesterday when my Taiji teacher demonstrated a joint lock and added a little too much force to it and just about damaged the tendon in my classmates hand.

[BlueTravesty]

Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were "battlefield" types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

However, I don't see any reason that somebody couldn't cross train there stand up kung fu game and groundfighting and do well in a MMA event.

Good point! Let's not forget the assumption of "buddies." I.E. the guy you're fighting has a couple friends looking out for him.

Now, before everyone pulls out their flamethrowers, bear with me. I'm not suggesting that Kung Fu practitioners have superhuman abilities allowing them to beat a whole group of equally skilled assailants at the same time. However, as (I hope) all MA students are taught, you may need to hit someone to create an opening enough for you to break off and a) get away or b) at least get to a more advantageous position (i.e. finding improvised weaponry, finding an area where they are less able to surround you.) all with the end result of getting out alive and well, even if you don't "win the fight." If you are on the ground, entangled with someone, you stand a chance of having your head kicked in, even if you are under the main assailant, choking him from behind.

Again, cool your flamethrowers. I believe groundfighting is a great tool for one-on-one confrontations, i.e. if some jackanape tackles you to the ground, it is good to know how to escape and resume fighting in stand up (or reverse and reciprocate on the ground if that's your preference and no one else jumps in.) I fully wish to learn some form of groundfighting someday for that reason.

Another possibility for the omission of BJJ/Pancrase/Sambo style groundfighting in CMA is that it simply didn't come up. Some people have discussed cultural reasons that pertain to this as well. I don't know, I'm not proficient on matters of culture.
All I know is that in the handful of schoolyard fights I was in, I was punched, got put into a full-nelson, and even got suplexed :eek: but was never tackled and taken to the ground.

Thus it was when I first saw people discussing "groundfighting" I had no idea what it entailed until I did some research. i would never have thought of taking an opponent down and then gettting on top of them. But then, before I took Karate (quite a long time ago) I would have never thought of using a head butt (that's how I got out of the full nelson.) and before I took up My Jhong I would have never thought of using a sidekick or heel-thrusting kick at close range (ouch.)

Long story short, I always imagined that if I got someone on the ground I would A) give them a chance to like, leave me alone or B) if I felt I was in real danger, I would stomp their head, while still standing up. Needless to say I was surprised by the effectiveness of BJJ/MMA groundfighting when I first was exposed to it., as it's something I would probably never have thought of beforehand.

[Knifefighter]

It's going to keep getting harder and harder to find students willing to believe how deadly and dangerous thier non-fighting teacher's kung fu is.

Not really. There will always be students who don't want to train full out against resisting opponents. These students are easily impressed by their instructors "root" and "power" when he demonstrates techniques on them while they are compliant in the the perfect position for him to perform his "brutal" techniques. They will probably never know that said instructor can't actually pull those techniques off against someone who has a clue.

[Knifefighter]

you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.
And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.


I just saw it yesterday when my Taiji teacher demonstrated a joint lock and added a little too much force to it and just about damaged the tendon in my classmates hand.

That is the sign of a crappy teacher. A teacher with good technique will never come close to injuring a compliant student who is letting him perform the technique in a compromised position.

Too many students are impressed by these kind of techiques. They don't understand that the whole reason it feels so powerful is that they are being compliant. It is a trick, plain and simple. But it is such a good trick, that often the instructors are just as clueless as thier students as to how ineffective these techniques really are.

[Royal Dragon]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

[fiercest tiger]

Kung Fu is MMA, its how you learn and training your kung fu....most people just do friggin forms and then believe they can beat people up!!

lol

[Fu-Pow]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

I don't think that you could get in enough fights to make that a practice regimen.

Well maybe some people could. :D

[SiuHung]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

Chin Na is always best as a response in a self defense situation where you are attacked, especially when the attack is a grab or immobilization technique or as a disarming move. In a fight...i.e. when two or more people choose to square off and attack eachother, such as in a ring, it's extremely difficult to use. The exception is the clinch, which in essence is a "sieze and hold" or chin na. Most systems, IMO address the clinch. Notice, I say most systems, not most teachers! Also, many teachers will spout off b.s. such as kung fu being for self defense. It was designed for fighting, self defense is a by product.

As for ground fighting...why wouldn't you want to know at least some basic survival ground fighting? A good number if mma fights are won on the feet, by fighters who've learned to avoid the takedown, or how to get back up fast. On the other hand, if you can take someone down, expect at some point to go down with them...better know how to finish it there.

[BlueTravesty]

Yeah, I think we as CMAists should start resolving to learn basic groundfighting. We're making "MMA-as-a-style" types waste so much time pointing out this valid oversight in kung fu training that they don't have as much time to criticize the other aspects of Kung Fu that tick them off, but aren't relevant to anything, such as:

Many Chinese Style Techniques Have Flowery Names (not relevant to their use in fighting, but for some reason MMA guys/gals tend to think they're onto something important when they point this out.)

The History of Many Styles is Highly Suspect If Not An Outright Lie (true for the most part, perhaps, but not relevant to their validity in fighting or lack thereof.)

CMAists May Say That They Use Low Kicks But They Practice Both High And Low (ignores the fact that the ability to balance properly when delivering high kicks is very helpful in just about every aspect of fighting, including low kicks.)

CMA Uses Bodyweight Training For The Legs Instead Of Using Weights Exclusively (ignoring the fact that One-Legged squats and stance transitions are VERY efficient for developing strength, balance, flexibility, and stability.)

Horse Stance: Is It Really Necessary? ("surrre, I COULD hold a horse stance, like forever, but, uhmmmm... I don't want to. yeah, it's silly! Or something...")

CMA Likes to do their techniques without an opponent (a.k.a- "In the air" a.k.a "Shadowboxing." a.k.a "Memorization Drills.") AND do them against resisting opponents instead of just doing them against resisting opponents
(OK look, if you take two people and give them a technique they have no idea how to do or use and tell them to use it on each other, all you get is bad technique and bloody noses- not rocket science.)

All TCMA and TMA in General Suffers From Massive Amounts of Ego and Arrogance
(Hello there, Pot! I'd like to introduce you to my good friend Kettle...)

All kidding aside, one other valid point most MMA-As-Style people have is the total lack of weight training in most CMA. It's important to develop a good core first, of course, but weight training (whether Olympic, Power Lifts, or Strongman [I really hope to get into this someday]) is unmatched for developing raw strength. Bodyweight excercises, calisthenics, etc. are still better for endurance however.

[FatherDog]

Kung fu is going to be at a big disadvantage in the MMA venue because most don't train to fight on the ground.

In a country where 20% or so of adult males wrestled at least in high school, and over half played football, not training at all what to do if someone tackles you puts you at a big disadvantage in more than just MMA venues.


If kung fu players are able to use their full arsenal of joint manipulation then it might not need to go there.


I think that the preferred combat sport of kung fu will be san da/san shou where ground fighting is not allowed and joint manipulation is not allowed. This allows the fullest range of techniques from kung fu to be utilized

What?


Why is groundfighting not part of kung fu? I think that there is a historical basis for this. Many traditional styles of kung fu were "battlefield" types of art, if you went down on the ground you were pretty much done for. If you tried to fight your opponent on the ground you would get a spear in your back or a horse trampling on your head.

Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a "battlefield" art.

[Fu-Pow]

In a country where 20% or so of adult males wrestled at least in high school, and over half played football, not training at all what to do if someone tackles you puts you at a big disadvantage in more than just MMA venues.

Not really.




Funny how Judo groundfighting techniques came from jujitsu, which is historically verifiable as a "battlefield" art.

I'm not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is? :o

[Royal Dragon]

is the total lack of weight training in most CMA.

Reply]
All Chinese arts have some sort of sport specific weight training, be it the stone locks, or the Taiji ball. That should be revived inour practice. No need to add modern weight lifting, we already have what we need.

[FatherDog]

Not really.


Yes, really.


I'm not talking about Japanese arts. Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is? :o

I don't know, but since Jujitsu and Sambo, two of the major groundfighting arts are historically proveable to be "battlefield arts", I doubt very much that it's because kung fu is "for the battlefield".

[neilhytholt]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
you just can't practice chin na under pressure without somebody getting hurt.

And there's the key as to why it doesn't work.

Reply]
I think in ancient times, these things were pressure tested in real fights where people got miamed. So those who were good at them, got really good at them, and those who weren't became crippled, or died of comlications to thier injuries. We just don't have those conditions here in this day and age, so we really can't get skilled at them. We can't take the final step to reality.

Yeah if you read the surgeons manuals for example of the Romans, they learned an awful lot from the fights with gladiators. People got extremely messed up.

In wars, for example, Vietnam and Iraq, they learned an awful lot about battlefield medicine. The mortality rate is extremely reduced now because of what they learned in Iraq.

Of course, they haven't learned to how really heal people and make them grow new limbs and stuff, so it's not all good.

Anyways, why complain about the lack of practicing Chin-Na or stuff like that? In MMA they fight to tap-out, a tap-out is a potential maiming situation, so they got to practice their stuff.

I used to complain about MMA not using realistic techniques, but let's face it, if you can't make MMA techniques work it's doubtful you'd be able to get your other techniques to work under pressure either.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Royal dragon,

My YKM system of internal shaolin is based off the metal, stone and wooden spheres. Too bad not many other arts utilise this great training tool look at boxers and fitness they also now use the medicine ball for workouts but its been in ykm for over 1000yrs and at shaolin.

Ultimate strength training tool!;)

GARRY

[Fu-Pow]

Yes, really.

No, not really.




I don't know, but since Jujitsu and Sambo, two of the major groundfighting arts are historically proveable to be "battlefield arts", I doubt very much that it's because kung fu is "for the battlefield".

Then what was it created for? :rolleyes:

[neilhytholt]

No, not really.




Then what was it created for? :rolleyes:

The reason CMA doesn't focus on groundfighting is because while you're sitting on the ground with somebody, the other person is kicking you in the head.

They realized long ago that you rarely have the luxury of fighting just one opponent.

[sir-elrik]

MMA is a trend, people sees fighters with briliant stamina that are able to get a enormous amount of hits and to counter-attack. unfortunatelly we are not all so naturally gifted neither we have the time to invest in so many styles.

I would luv to see a disent kung fu fighters gets in MMA. But to get in MMA u hv to train to get there and that training is quite different from what we general do. san shou-sanda its the more applicable for such an event but with addition of how to escape from grapling techniques.

It will b clever the chinese super duber san shou national team to send someone in MMA.

[Fu-Pow]

I like your name sir-elrick.

[FightingGorilla]

How has MMA changed or impacted Kung-Fu? There is no denying the impact UFC has had on the Martial Arts World. More and more schools offer multiple styles. I know you will have traditionalists and revisionists argue these points, but MMA has its place in the Martial Arts world, for now anyway. Does it have staying power? Should it now be its own Art? Your thoughts?

Well, before I read any of the other folk's posts, I would like to enter my own observations about the UFC and the new MMA that seems to be a result of the UFC.

I think they have certain concepts that can be learned from, but for me, I wouldn't forsake traditional teachings to join the brand new MMA camp. Part of the reason I am interested in Kung Fu isn't about fighting at all, but includes studies of the Chinese culture, history, religion, I find all of these aspects interesting. I also take note at the fact that someone somewhere has got to remember the traditions and the history. UFC/MMA fighters do not seem to want anything much to do with the (what I have heard pro-MMA folks call) "baggage" of the traditional arts.

There is another aspect to the words "martial arts" and that aspect is contained in the the second half of the expression, that aspect is "the arts." Also known as humanities if any of you went to college, etc... The study of the civilization, culture, history, religion, even the architecture, and many other intricate things that can be found by studying traditional martial arts.

If it was just about fighting and creating a nice blood and guts brawl in an Octagon for ticket money, well then I guess I don't find very much depth in the UFC/MMA. It's sort of a "quick fix" that (to me) is rather boring intellectually. It would be good for a "jock" type, who only wants to grunt and fight, but I am interested in martial arts for more than just those things, Kung Fu is and can be a very deep and philosophical thing, and it seems like the UFC/MMA folks don't really want much to do with philosophy, religion, culture, or Asian civilization. They acknowledge a few of those aspects, but overall, are found bragging that they do what they do by shunning most of the traditional values. I think this propaganda gets them a certain amount of media attention as well. It's a sensational boast, and the media is always there to pick up on a sensational story. Whether it is real or not, it's sensational, and that's what makes headlines and publicity. And publicity draws the final result, ... ticket sales...

I think any athlete that trains to the point these folks do should be respected, but I am not one to jump on their late-1900 - early-2000's bandwagon. I am not about to forsake traditional ancient Kung Fu for this new and modern cage grappling art. To me, it has no intellectual depth, so it doesn't interest me very much at all. In fact, I believe the fights themselves (IMHO) are only a novelty that will one day soon fall out of the limelight of sensational media attention; the after-math will be a return to history, philosophy, religion, and deeper things. Men’s emotions can be stirred by watching a blood and guts fight, but the mind is more powerful than the emotions, and it will want to be fed after the emotional glimmer and glitz wears off. When the fad and trend ceases to entertain and exist, people will find themselves returning to the study of traditions and cultures and religions. That’s just what people do…

I don’t think the concept of MMA has really reinvented the wheel or anything. The Chinese art of joint locking and “seizing and control” called Chin Na was around for hundreds of years before there were submission contests in the Octagon. Grappling is nothing new, the Greeks did it, the Romans did it, and so did the Chinese. Unarmed combat is nothing new, in 1700B.C. the Greeks were doing it in sports festivals held in Crete and the Aegean islands.

What is new is that the battle can be seen live and in your living room for a few dollars on your VISA card or added to your next cable bill. The media has changed, but the fights are still the same. One man pitted against another man, in a test of wills and abilities. It’s actually been part of man’s approach to life I suppose as long as there has been a man on Earth.

What gets me, I guess, is that a certain crowd of folks will view this stuff and claim “hey looky what I found, this new and improved way of fighting.” Wrong…. It’s not new at all, in fact it’s as old as life it’s self.

Which is one more reason to study traditional history, philosophy, religion and culture….

[FightingGorilla]

Ok, now I've read everybody's posts, and I can add a bit more.

I do wonder about one thing... like, it just seems like there is probably a really bad-ass Shaolin Monk who trains extremely hard every day, has rarely ever been very far away from the temple, and if he were to go in the Octagon, would most likely wipe the floor with any of the American martial artists. I have been wondering that for a while, and probably there is some issue of humility or some thing that would prevent one of the Shaolin pristes from entering into a professional competition.

As far as ground fighting, we definitely work on ground fighting in our school, and we did it long before the first Octagon fight in the UFC. At the moment, I don't remember what all the fancy Chinese words were for the mount and the gaurd, but I knew about those applications from going to my Kung Fu school, not by watching Shamrock and Gracie tie up...

As far as what Kung Fu was invented for... someone said it is made for the battlefiled... well.... hold on a second here...

I'll have to paraphrase, because I am no expert in the history, but I thought it went something like this... there was this Buddhist teacher who came from India to teach Buddhism to the Chinese... seems like his name was Da Mo (forgive me if I can't spell)... and some how he was responsible for enlightening the monks that they needed to do execises... those exercises became combat techniques, and those combat techniques became known as Kung Fu...

No battlefield there, dude...

Now... as the story goes (and I am telling it real crappy, so please forgive me...) one time the Chinese were getting their butts kicked in (I think) Taiwan... by (I think) the Japanese... and the Chinese government called upon the Shaolin fighting monks to go to war for the government... they did, and it turned the tide of the battle on the battle field...

The monastery came before the battlefield....

The battlefield is where the Shaolin monks earned their reputation at having highly skilled fighting abilities.

It was not a game, or a sport, it was fighting... real fighting where people got hurt and got killed.

********

One major comment on sport fighting as a whole.... ALL sport fighting is a fantasy fight. It is NOT a real-world, your-life-depends-on-it fight. It is a "sport" and our "code of ethics" in the (so-called) "civilized world" does not allow for maiming or killing the opponent. It doesn't matter if you are practicing MMA fighting, or Kung Fu... if you maim somebody, or kill them, you probably aren't going to be very popular in your school any more.

On the street, in a REAL fight... one where somebody is weilding a club or a knife, or worse yet, a gun, you are going to have to either back down and run away, or be ready to pull out the cork and get down to business mano a mano.

I have one observation that most likely applies to most folks who have stepped foot into a martial arts school. Most criminals aren't going to know that you have studied martial arts. In fact, they are most likely dumb enough to think that you are weak and in no way are going to put up a fight. If they are going to rob you, chances are, they are not going to be alone (they will have buddie shelping them ron you), which gives them an advantage, or they are going to have a weapon of some kind, which they think gives them an advantage. And most folks who have stepped into a martial arts school SHOULD have the guts enough to want to defend themselves. That is one thing the criminal is probably going to take for granted. They aren;t going to know that you have any skills whatsoever, so to them, you appear as merely the next victim in there life-long menace to society.

It may seem like a very bad day-dream to some, but I actually wish some idiot WOULD try to mug me someday. Because I am really curious to see what would happen when I do open this box of martial arts tricks, in a no-holds barred match on the street. I'm not talking about sport fighting, where you have to abide by rules. I'm talking about unleashing every bit of anger and emotion that I can muster into a life struggle with a really stupid criminal who is about to be taught a very hard lesson.

The collar bone is a nice target, it only takes 30lbs of pressure to break (or so they say, I've never broken one...) ... I kind of like the idea of pushing my thumbs into somebody's eyes just to see them pop out of their sockets right in front of me... now we can't exactly train for that one either, can we... and if I were to actually get my "tiger claw" hand on some guys gonads in a real-world life-or-death scrap... AFTER THAT he's probably never going to have any children, and he will be talking in a very high voice for many years to come... and that isn't something we can practice much either... and let's not forget a nice bite to the neck, arm, chest, ear, nose, leg, or anywhere else I might be able to bite some stupid criminal who is threatening my life... I'm, sure, that in a life and death struggle, if my adrenalin is flowing, I'll be trying to get them back molars involved in some sort of clamping down technique... and I've always wondered... what gives out first... do muscles and skin bust loose, or do your teeth pop out first? darn... can't train for that, either...

LOL...

You think I'm gonna stand there and give this fellow a crane's beak to the chest? Hardly... more like I'm probably going to be trying to pull his arm out of joint, mash his head into the concrete, or pound his larnyx until he's stopped breathing (oops, not traditional martial arts... oops...)

I am sort of making a joke, but then again, if any of us were in a life-and-death match in the real world, how many would fight... and how many would probably do better to run like hell? Actually, in my very first martial arts class years ago, that was the first technique out instructor told us about... the "run form"... >>> look for an exit and get the hell out of there... haha

********

I think there are two things brought out in the previous posts 1) somefolks practice the martial arts becsue it is a good work out and they could care less if they ever do any full-contact sparring. There's nothing wrong with this... the world is made up of millions of individuals... and to each their own... 2) Some folks want to compete in sporting events where they use martial training (in one form or another) to face an opponent in a controlled setting, with rules, and with etiquette, and with a certain amount of civilization. I wrote the above silly bit of collar-bone breaking, gouging, biting, ball-grabbing to show you that sport fighting is just that. Sport. MMA fighting isn't even a REAL fight... it is full contact (in the sporting sense), and has many things that in some scenarios could be used in a real fight, but it is still taking place in a controlled environment, with rules. It is a SPORT...

There is a third...

Some folks have the calling to be TRUE WARRIORS. Not sport fighters, I mean modern-day warriors. For those people who are up for the challenge, and want to see true war, there is the military. In the June issue of Blackbelt Magazine, there is an article where Frank Shamrock of UFC/MMA fame is demonstrating fighting techniques to the United States Marine Corps. Now I thought that was just cool as heck. If you want a thrill, join the Marines. They'll use your martial ability, and they'll teach you some more tricks, too, like how to shoot an M-16 round into a person's chest at several hundred yards. Might not seem to like much of a martial art to some, but it takes skill to fire those weapons, and to know how to use them.

So... there is a battlefield today... and if you want the "Ultimate Fighting Challenge" go enlist in the Corps... and then you can really find out, no holds barred, what technique works, and what technique doesn't. And they even have the "run form" in the Corps, too... it's called "RETREAT"...

I guess it's all about just how far you want to take your body, and what you want to see your body do to people. The UFC fights are defintely NOT the Ultimate. I'd say taking point in the US Marine Corps recon platoon blows away anything they can cook up in the Octagon. Especially if there's a couple ten dozen bad guys waiting for you on the other side of some hill.

Any time there is a ring, or an octagon, or rules, it's just a game, but if you really want the Ultimate Fighting Challenge...

Join the Marines.....


FG

[Knifefighter]

It may seem like a very bad day-dream to some, but I actually wish some idiot WOULD try to mug me someday. Because I am really curious to see what would happen when I do open this box of martial arts tricks, in a no-holds barred match on the street. I'm not talking about sport fighting, where you have to abide by rules. I'm talking about unleashing every bit of anger and emotion that I can muster into a life struggle with a really stupid criminal who is about to be taught a very hard lesson.

Ah, yes… another fantasy foo geek who has never used his techniques against other resisting opponents, but fantasizes about what he will do against evil bad guys.

And you talk about sport fighters living in fantasy land.


Now... as the story goes (and I am telling it real crappy, so please forgive me...) one time the Chinese were getting their butts kicked in (I think) Taiwan... by (I think) the Japanese... and the Chinese government called upon the Shaolin fighting monks to go to war for the government... they did, and it turned the tide of the battle on the battle field...
Since you are interested in Chinese history, maybe instead of getting your “history” from martial arts myths, you should take some Asian studies courses to learn real history.

[Knifefighter]

Funny how there are like 300 styles of kung fu and very few of them have ANY groundfighting. Now why do you suppose that is? :o

Because they are striking styles. Striking styles usually don't have groundfighting. Only grappling styles have groundfighting.

For whatever reason, combative sytems have traditionally gravitated towards either striking or grappling. Striking styles generally don't have grappling and groundfighting, and grappling styles don't generally have striking.

MMA is the only system that contains all the elements of striking, grappling and groundfighting.

[Knifefighter]

As far as "battlefield" arts, most cultures in the pre-firearms era recognized that grappling and groundfighting played roles in combat and needed to be trained.

The Mongols developed Mongolian wrestling.
The Europeans had catch-as-catch-can and a variety of other wrestling sytems.
The Greeks and Romans recognized the importance of grappling in included them in a variety of athletic games.
Styles of grappling were developed in India, Japan, Turkey, Iran, Sweden, and Moldova.
The Vikings developed a grappling style that they used as part of their combative training.

[unkokusai]

Ah, yes… another fantasy foo geek who has never used his techniques against other resisting opponents, but fantasizes about what he will do against evil bad guys.

And you talk about sport fighters living in fantasy land.


Since you are interested in Chinese history, maybe instead of getting your “history” from martial arts myths, you should take some Asian studies courses to learn real history.


Very well put! Just what that kid needed to hear! :cool:

[ShaolinTiger00]

I love this part...



I do wonder about one thing... like, it just seems like there is probably a really bad-ass Shaolin Monk who trains extremely hard every day, has rarely ever been very far away from the temple, and if he were to go in the Octagon, would most likely wipe the floor with any of the American martial artists. I have been wondering that for a while, and probably there is some issue of humility or some thing that would prevent one of the Shaolin pristes from entering into a professional competition.

[unkokusai]

as for the whole silly argument of sport versus street - well if you train TCMA for "the street" but you never actually use your stuff "for real", and you come up against an MMA guy who is in great shape, has a varied toolbag of techniques at all ranges, and is used to trying his hardest against people who are trying their hardest, what magic wand are you whiping out here? ...


The magic 'poke in the eye'! No need for strength, experience, or real training, the magic poke in the eye rules all! :p

[mantis108]

You can teach MMA as an art and you can teach TMA as sport if you understand the contexts of them. MMA or rather UFC/NHB as a sport venue is relatively new in North America. Most TMA schools haven't even have a good look at this rather new kid on the block. So, it's not surprising that they would reject it. But this doesn't mean that people are not taking notes and starting to investigate and even seriously studying it in order to incorporate it. You don't have to draw a line between the two if you so choose.

The problem is that it is very hard to be a self taught TMAist due to the enormous information database besides the supposedly practical delivery system but it's relatively easy to be a self taught MMAist because it's been streamlined into primarily a sport venue - the octagon or the ring is the canvas of the MMA artist, the blood and sweat are his paint. One of the reasons for the difficulty of conversion is the "bagage" of TMA. pride and prejudice are the hurdles to overcome for the "traditionalist" to mend the almost dysfunctional delivery system that they pride themselves on.

Anyway when it comes down to a real self defense situation, neither MMA or TMA can guarantee victory nor can either gives you an edge. The best they can do is to give you the confidence and courage that you will be able to defense yourself intelligently and hopefully make it out in one piece. Knowing when to fight or flight and never froze on the critical fractions of a second, is enough to determine whether you live to fight another day.

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

[Knifefighter]

which seems to contradict the "generally" qualifier above;

so which is it?

Traditionally, styles (at least the ones that train live against resisiting opponents) have tended to emphasize either striking or grappling. I am not counting the styles that train the infamous "too deadly" pretend techniques. These styles claim they have it all, but really don't have anything.

I'm not sure why this has tended to be the case, considering one of the oldest systems of unarmed combat is Greek Pankration, which included striking, grappling and groundfighting.

MMA has brought back the original philosophy of incorporating all elements into unarmed combat.

[unkokusai]

I'm sorry - what is up with that? has anyone ever tried to poke someone in the eye who doesn't want to be poked in the eye? it's a small target that is highly mobile - how do they train this? and do they realilze that the nervous system is hardwired to jerk the head away when something is about to hit the eye? I mean, if your training was like trying to catch a fly while someone was hitting your arms with a brromstick, ok, maybe you could transfer that skill - but contemporary motor learning reasearch shows unequivocally that the nvironmental context within which you trrain has a great influcence on your ability to replicate that skill and also to transfer it to a fdifferent one - in other words, if you never train trying to really dig your fingers into someone's eyes, you won't just spontaneously manifest it: the only way you could train that is in 2 parts: 1) trying to lightly tap someone on the eye with your finger who is trying to not let you do that; 2) trying to hit something "eye-like" as hard as you can that is moving really fast - then you have to combine those two skill sets into one in a high pressure novel situation with an extraordinaryilly high level of contextual interference (someone trying to take you out)...

Um...yeah...that was kinda my point....

[Knifefighter]

but it's relatively easy to be a self taught MMAist because it's been streamlined into primarily a sport venue -

LOL!!!
No it's not.
It's much easier to be a self-taught CMA practioner if you are not going to be competing, sparring, or fighting against others.

A self-taught MMA fighter will quickly have his a$$ handed to him. That's why all accomplished MMA fighters train under good coaches with tough teams and skilled training partners..

[mantis108]

MMA like any martial sport is teamwork. It is a team sport. What I mean by self taught is that you can get martials (ie books, video, equipments, etc...) and get a reasonably good idea of how MMA's delivery system works. You can go to seminars to get first hands experience as well. Not all TMA style would accomodate that.

Now, being a TMA fundamental hot head is just as bad as being a MMA elitist snob, my friend. I understand you wish to drive home the point that professional MMA is hardwork and hard investment and I agreed wholeheartedly. So does professional TMA. Everybody works towards perfection from their perspective. If MMA professional is the thing for you, by all means be passionate about it. But please don't treat everyone else like idiots when it comes to the subject of MMA. Most in TMA may be less informed than you but once they are informed about MMA, well you tell me what's going to happen. :cool:

I happened to like MMA and come to a limited understanding thus developed a respect of it by way of my background in the style of Praying Mantis Kung Fu which is drills and applications oriented. I have attended BJJ/Sambo seminars and exchange views with boxing coaches, Ju Jitsu stylists, etc. Again I like it but it doesn't take away what I have done in Kung Fu. In fact, it gets me further down a path where I can see harmony between MMA and TMA. So...

Mantis108

[lkfmdc]

Because they are striking styles. Striking styles usually don't have groundfighting. Only grappling styles have groundfighting.

For whatever reason, combative sytems have traditionally gravitated towards either striking or grappling. Striking styles generally don't have grappling and groundfighting, and grappling styles don't generally have striking.

MMA is the only system that contains all the elements of striking, grappling and groundfighting.

I will, with respect, tend to disagree. Most martial arts systems ORIGINALLY had a mixture of striking and grappling, if by "grappling" we mean stand up to throw and trip. Most original systems, based upon "battlefield" prejudice omitted ground grappling from their program

Classical Japanese Ju Jitsu had striking and trips/throws/takedowns but little ground work. Ground work came later, after the introduction of firearms in Japan made jujitsu less a practice of an active army and more the activity of local "toughs" and used for local brawls, challenges, and "self defense"

IE, ground grappling is more an aspect of PERSONAL combat, not large unit combat on a battlefield. It is in some respects sort of pathetic that TCMA has held onto this bias, as clearly it is no longer for large unit battlefield combat

[lkfmdc]

As far as "battlefield" arts, most cultures in the pre-firearms era recognized that grappling and groundfighting played roles in combat and needed to be trained.

The Mongols developed Mongolian wrestling.



Neither "Boke" (Mongolian "sport wrestling" used in festivals) nor "Cilnem" (ie combat wrestling used in combat, such as against Yue Fei's army in the north) have much if any ground grappling. Cilnem is more precisely designed to put the opponent on the ground in a vulmerable position for "finish" with the finish certainly NOT limited to empty hand techniqe. IE, throw them then STAB THEM





The Greeks and Romans recognized the importance of grappling in included them in a variety of athletic games.



If you read Poliakoff's Combat Sports in the Ancient World you will see that there was a certain debate about the combat/battlefield utility of wrestling, specifically the ground aspect....

But again, wse aren't talking abotu large unit tactics here, ie battle fields. we are talking about personal combat

[lkfmdc]

Traditionally, styles (at least the ones that train live against resisiting opponents) have tended to emphasize either striking or grappling. I am not counting the styles that train the infamous "too deadly" pretend techniques. These styles claim they have it all, but really don't have anything.

I'm not sure why this has tended to be the case, considering one of the oldest systems of unarmed combat is Greek Pankration, which included striking, grappling and groundfighting.

MMA has brought back the original philosophy of incorporating all elements into unarmed combat.

In recent history you had bare knuckle boxing which of course had striking but also had standing grappling (ie throws). Certainly they fought against resisting opponents.

Savate as the art, as opposed to the sport, has a good degree of grappling and the sparring, various "challenges" plus the sport (especially pre WW I) put them in teh "train live against resisting opponents" category

Judo focused indeed more on grappling as far as it's alive training. Probably for the simple reason that training striking live in the past, with the lack of proper equipment, was harder to do

[lkfmdc]

As a former history teacher, I adhere to the idea that those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it...

Classical Jujitsu was originally the very alive art of Samurai warrior class. Until social changes and technology made it almost obsolete and pointless....

Along came Kano and the "randori" idea and worthless Jujitsu became functional Judo, the base of, sorry, BJJ... no Kano, no randori, no BJJ... (new argument can start here I guess).

As many know and accept, Kano didn't pull a system out of his rear end. He took existing JJ technique and made it work with Randori and Shiai

Kung Fu is to classical Jujitsu what San Da is to Judo and BJJ...

And speaking of connecting to reality and dropping all the myth and BS, everyone here on KFO, yes, even you! shoudl go out and buy "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals" by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo... cuts to the point, cuts out the bs

[FatherDog]

No, not really.

Okay, you're right. Not training how to prevent tackles or what to do when your tackled will never put you at a disadvantage outside of an MMA venue. Despite the large number of people who've wrestled in high school and played football, no one will ever try to tackle you outside of a cage.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Then what was it created for? :rolleyes:

Work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say it wasn't created "for the battlefield" (although frankly I have my doubts about that), I said that being created "for the battlefield" is unlikely to be why it doesn't have groundfighting, since most of the major groundfighting arts WERE created "for the battlefield".

[BlueTravesty]

And speaking of connecting to reality and dropping all the myth and BS, everyone here on KFO, yes, even you! shoudl go out and buy "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals" by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo... cuts to the point, cuts out the bs

An excellent book! I got that one about a month ago. I don't read or own many books on MA, but this one should not be passed up. Very great wealth of info, despite the author's obvious bias toward Xingyi and Bagua.

[BlueTravesty]

I mean, what's left? if the only things you can't do in MMA is eye gouges, throat pokes, groin kicks, headbutts and biting, are those what form the core preferred techs of TCMA?

Not to take away from your post, but don't most MMA venues prohibit strikes to the back of the head and small-joint manipulation as well as strikes with the "point" of the elbow? (as opposed to the "flat" of the elbow.)

[Fu-Pow]

Okay, you're right. Not training how to prevent tackles or what to do when your tackled will never put you at a disadvantage outside of an MMA venue. Despite the large number of people who've wrestled in high school and played football, no one will ever try to tackle you outside of a cage.

They can certainly TRY. ;)




Work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say it wasn't created "for the battlefield" (although frankly I have my doubts about that), I said that being created "for the battlefield" is unlikely to be why it doesn't have groundfighting, since most of the major groundfighting arts WERE created "for the battlefield".

Then what's YOUR theory as to why Chinese martial arts don't have much in the way of groundfighting? Can you sythesize or can you only analyze?

[BlueTravesty]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Then what's YOUR theory as to why Chinese martial arts don't have much in the way of groundfighting? Can you sythesize or can you only analyze?

THere's a couple theories one COULD put forward, but they tend to work against basic critical thinking skills. Except for the last one. Have fun!

1) Chinese arts were never used for battlefield combat. The Chinese never even had an army. They just hired Mongolians to do all the fighting for them. Afraid the people would discover this, the Chinese eventually just let the Mongolians control the country for them, thus starting the Yuan dynasty. The people of China tried to devise martial arts for themselves, but lacking a military, they didn't know how to REALLY fight, so their martial arts lacked ground grappling. :rolleyes:

2) Chinese Martial Arts WERE used in the battlefield, but when firearms were introduced to China, the Westerners pretty much crapped all over Chinese society. The martial artists lost faith in their hard-earned Kung Fu (that part is actually true,) and wanted revenge on the Westerners. So all of them, ALL OF THEM, met and decided to stop teaching ground-grappling. That way, if a Chinese person ever taught a Westerner MA, their MA would be deficient because it lacked ground-fighting. Oh... and then they killed all the students they had ALREADY taught ground-grappling to. And then they took ground-grappling out of ALL MA training manuals.

3) CMA/Kung Fu/Classical Wushu WAS a battlefield art. Fighting on a battlefield has MANY perils. If you took an enemy down and rolled around in a relatively small area, your chances of being trampled, shot by an arrow, or stabbed increased signifigantly. Take this example-

A soldier in the Imperial Army finds one of his fellow soldiers rolling around on the ground with one of the Rebels. Now, he'll bring honor to himself if he kills an enemy, and the enemy is RIGHT THERE, and vulnerable. So is his fellow soldier. But his army outnumbers the rebels greatly! Therefore, your arithmetic will look like this-
1 Spear + 1 Rebel Scum + 1 Fellow Soldier = 1 dead Rebel Scum.

Conversely, if you happen to be said Rebel, and your Rebellion numbers 500, you'll likely crap your pants at the sight of thousands upon THOUSANDS of Imperial Soldiers. Then your idiot commander says something stupid like "DO NOT RETREAT! MEET THE IMPERIALS HEAD-ON." Well, there goes your day. And your life. Then you see one of your idiot fellow rebels rolling on the ground. You have a spear. Your arithmetic will look like this.
1 spear + 1 Imperialist Pig-Dog Scum + 1 Fellow Rebel = 1 dead Imperial Soldier
After all, in the face of overwhelming and better-equipped odds, your fellow Rebel will die anyway. Why not take as many of the Imperials down as possible before you die yourself?

[FatherDog]

They can certainly TRY. ;)

And if you've never trained to prevent tackles, the odds of them succeeding are far greater than the odds of them failing. And if you've never trained any ground fighting, once they succeed, you're pretty much boned.


Then what's YOUR theory as to why Chinese martial arts don't have much in the way of groundfighting? Can you sythesize or can you only analyze?

I don't know much about the history of Chinese martial arts or culture, so any theory I have would only be guesswork.

Whether or not I present a synthesis, however, has no bearing on the accuracy of my analysis.

[BlueTravesty]

And if you've never trained to prevent tackles, the odds of them succeeding are far greater than the odds of them failing. And if you've never trained any ground fighting, once they succeed, you're pretty much boned.


lol too easy :D

[Knifefighter]

I happened to like MMA and come to a limited understanding thus developed a respect of it by way of my background in the style of Praying Mantis Kung Fu which is drills and applications oriented. I have attended BJJ/Sambo seminars and exchange views with boxing coaches, Ju Jitsu stylists, etc. Again I like it but it doesn't take away what I have done in Kung Fu.

Yes, you have a very limited understanding if you think you can somehow be an effective self-taught MMA fighter. Going to a few seminars will definitely give you a very limited understanding.

[Knifefighter]

A soldier in the Imperial Army finds one of his fellow soldiers rolling around on the ground with one of the Rebels. Now, he'll bring honor to himself if he kills an enemy, and the enemy is RIGHT THERE, and vulnerable. So is his fellow soldier. But his army outnumbers the rebels greatly! Therefore, your arithmetic will look like this-
1 Spear + 1 Rebel Scum + 1 Fellow Soldier = 1 dead Rebel Scum.

LOL @ all of the people here who have never fought full contact with weapons (nor probably ever even seen actual full-on weapons fighting) and pontificate about not going to the ground in battle without realizing how often these things end up on the ground, even when no one wants them to.

[Fu-Pow]

And if you've never trained to prevent tackles, the odds of them succeeding are far greater than the odds of them failing. And if you've never trained any ground fighting, once they succeed, you're pretty much boned.

The part about the tackles is speculation on your part.

Are tackles something special or new? Not really. They've probably been a part of "fighting" as long as the "haymaker" has.

For example, Taiji teaches you how do deal with any forward energy and the strategy is usually to direct the force downward.

As for the groundfighting bit. Your asking that we assume that once one of these "highschool wrestlers" or "football players" is going to know what do once they have you on the ground.

Not likely unless they've specifcally trained for groundfighting or they happen to a be a particularly good highschool wrestler (knocking your 20% figure down to something much much lower.)



I don't know much about the history of Chinese martial arts or culture, so any theory I have would only be guesswork.

Whether or not I present a synthesis, however, has no bearing on the accuracy of my analysis.


True, it doesn't take away from the "validity" of your analysis.
However, if you are going to criticize someone else's hypothesis (by analysis) then I say you should be prepared to offer an alternative one of your own. That's just good manners. ;)

[MasterKiller]

As for the groundfighting bit. Your asking that we assume that once one of these "highschool wrestlers" or "football players" is going to know what do once they have you on the ground.

Not likely unless they've specifcally trained for groundfighting or they happen to a be a particularly good highschool wrestler (knocking your 20% figure down to something much much lower.)
I take it Fu-Pow never played football.

Most football players know how to hold people down and prevent them from moving. It's trained all the time in loose-ball drills and many blocking drills. Watch any game closely and you'll see that players are constantly holding each other down, most of the time without using their hands because that would be a penalty. Blocking and tackling is very much about positioning and body control, which is all wrestling is anyway.

If you push down on a football player who is applying forward momentum on you, he'll just roll into your knees and clip you, which can not only take you down but also blows out your knees as well. Football blocks usually involve lifting up the opponent (usually by gettig under his shoulder pads with your forearms) to off-balance him, which dissipates forward momentum and makes it easier to toss them aside and/or make them fall.

So, pretty much anyone who played any kind of organized football in the U.S. has had some takedown training.

Football players don't train punching, either, but a forearm "shiver" can make you see stars.

[Knifefighter]

Not to mention the fact that a 250 lb football player usually has pretty decent G&P, especially against someone who has no ground training.

[FatherDog]

The part about the tackles is speculation on your part.

No, "if you don't train to deal with tackles you won't have much chance of stopping one in real life" isn't speculation.



As for the groundfighting bit. Your asking that we assume that once one of these "highschool wrestlers" or "football players" is going to know what do once they have you on the ground.

Not likely unless they've specifcally trained for groundfighting or they happen to a be a particularly good highschool wrestler (knocking your 20% figure down to something much much lower.)


No, it doesn't take much training to hold down someone with no ground training and hit them in the face. If you've never trained groundfighting, you're pretty much boned at that point.



True, it doesn't take away from the "validity" of your analysis.
However, if you are going to criticize someone else's hypothesis (by analysis) then I say you should be prepared to offer an alternative one of your own. That's just good manners. ;)

Well, really, I don't particularly care what you consider good manners. If you present a hypothesis that's obviously flawed, I'm going to point it out, whether I have an alternative or not.

[Fu-Pow]

I take it Fu-Pow never played football.

Actually I did.



Most football players know how to hold people down and prevent them from moving. It's trained all the time in loose-ball drills and many blocking drills. Watch any game closely and you'll see that players are constantly holding each other down, most of the time without using their hands because that would be a penalty. Blocking and tackling is very much about positioning and body control, which is all wrestling is anyway.

So they can hold you on the ground. My point was that they're not going to know what to do once they have you there as a BJJ player or wrestler would.

Better not to go there at all which is the strategy of most CMA.




If you push down on a football player who is applying forward momentum on you, he'll just roll into your knees and clip you, which can not only take you down but also blows out your knees as well. Football blocks usually involve lifting up the opponent (usually by gettig under his shoulder pads with your forearms) to off-balance him, which dissipates forward momentum and makes it easier to toss them aside and/or make them fall.

You don't have your facts straight. Clipping is used by the offensive line to trip the incoming defensive line. The defensive line is applying the forward pressure, not the offense. So in order for someone to clip you it is you that must be applying the forward pressure.

The reason that you can't really push a defensive lineman down as an offensive lineman is that they are not trying to tackle you, they are just trying to get around you. When a defensive lineman does get through and goes after a back, for example, you do see the backs push the defensive linemans' head down.

Furthermore, "pushing" your opponent's force down is only one viable option in terms of Taiji and is the "typical" one. Any direction that does not directly oppose the incoming force is in accord with Taiji principles ie Peng (up), Lu (back) and An (down). Could also deflect to the side. So when you see an offensive lineman pushing the defensive lineman up he is actually doing a crude version of Peng....:D



So, pretty much anyone who played any kind of organized football in the U.S. has had some takedown training.

Football players don't train punching, either, but a forearm "shiver" can make you see stars.

Its funny to me that you guys are trying to equate football skills with fighting skills. I've heard so many stories about macho football players getting pizowned by street fighters. Its a weak connection...I guess less weak than something like curling but I digress....:rolleyes:

[ronro]

Better not to go there at all which is the strategy of most CMA.

This is not the strategy of CMA at all. Nobody sat down and said "hey what are we going to do about all these grapplers? I know, lets not go to the ground at all".

The reason CMA have no ground strategy is due to the culture they come from. At that time, in that place, fighting was done standing up. There was no developed ground strategy available. If you want a clinch and ground grappling strategy then the smart and fast way is to cross train wrestling or judo with bjj alongside your kung fu.

Trying to find it all "hidden" in the 'fu is retarded. People who talk this way don't train properly.

[MasterKiller]

So they can hold you on the ground. My point was that they're not going to know what to do once they have you there as a BJJ player or wrestler would. How much training does it take to beat someone senseless if you can sucessfully hold them down just using body-weight?


Better not to go there at all which is the strategy of most CMA. Maybe. Depends on the situation. I certianly prefer to stay on my feet, but it's not always my choice.


You don't have your facts straight. Clipping is used by the offensive line to trip the incoming defensive line. The defensive line is applying the forward pressure, not the offense. So in order for someone to clip you it is you that must be applying the forward pressure.
Clipping is specifically a block from behind, at or below knee level. Doesn't matter if it's offensive or defensive.

You push on the guy's head, and he'll spin around and hit the back of your legs, much like a wrestler does when he misses a shoot and redirects the angle.

In fact, proper tackling is very similar to a proper shoot.


Its funny to me that you guys are trying to equate football skills with fighting skills. I've heard so many stories about macho football players getting pizowned by street fighters.
I'll take a football player in a fight over a Taiji player anyday of the week.;)

[Fu-Pow]

No, "if you don't train to deal with tackles you won't have much chance of stopping one in real life" isn't speculation.

A tackle is pretty much the stupidest thing you can do in a fight (unless maybe you are a groundfighter in a one-on-one situation) so I think most martial artists don't take them seriously....nor should they.




No, it doesn't take much training to hold down someone with no ground training and hit them in the face. If you've never trained groundfighting, you're pretty much boned at that point.

If I'm fighting a groundfighter I would agree. But you're trying to equate ALL highschool wrestling and football players to the skills of a trained groundfighter. Weak connection.




Well, really, I don't particularly care what you consider good manners.

That was a joke. It's called "sense of humour."


If you present a hypothesis that's obviously flawed, I'm going to point it out, whether I have an alternative or not.

That's fine, there are that are more effective ways to get your point across to me.

But maybe that's not you're aim.

Maybe you're just trying to look "right" and make me look "wrong." Which is called posturing.

In which case, what's the point? To impress these other guys on the forum?.....That's pretty pu$$y if you ask me.

FP

[ronro]

But you're trying to equate ALL highschool wrestling and football players to the skills of a trained groundfighter.

Football players and ESPECIALLY highschool wrestlers are great at taking people down and ending up on top. From there it doesn't take a genius to punch or knee or elbow for the win.

At the very least if you are taken down your standup will be negated and the fight will be a level playing field which the bigger guy will likely win due to weight and strength advantage.

This problem is simply corrected by training in wrestling and bjj.

[lkfmdc]

I don't want to go anywhere near any arguments about Football and its relationship to fighting but there is a saying, actually a TCMA saying, that more TCMA people should take to heart

"The technique (strategy) you neglect (ignore) will be your defeat"

TCMA has a lot of great material, but the refusal by many to look outside their school or tradition has stagnated a lot of it

[David Jamieson]

I agree with a couple of assessments.

1) Groundfighting, It's not all hidden or within Chin Na.

This is true. CMA doesn't for the most part address gground fighting in any manner whatsoever. It doesn't train fr it, it doesn't deal with it at all and often will just use some idea that Chin Na will help you when you are in the guard.

Absolute nonsense. Rule is, if you do not train for it, you are unprepared for most of it period. Wrestling and some form of groundfighting training will round out any traditionalist and to deny it is to ostrich on the issue.

2)there is such a thing as crossover skills, but only once again if they are properly trained in the correct environment for doing so. a football player cannot be assumed to know squat about fighting. They don't train to fight. They can adapt there strength to function in a combat environment but it would involve a whole lotta different body mechanics.

I would take a big guy over a little guy based on size and strength alone.
I would take a skilled guy over and unskilled guy based on "knows what to do".

I would also add, knowing throws does not equate to groundwork. That is a different skill set and is used to take something to the ground. Throwing skills have little to do with once you are there. Grappling skills are what you need once you are down there. CMA for the most part has zero grappling training and most cma purists have zero grappling skills. Grappling skills are found outside of cma. Throwing skills are there already, but again, you have to train that. It is not enough to say "we have that in our style in moves 37 through 49 of such and such a form". This approach will get you choke the fug out and quickly.


If you want to learn grappling, then you must practice it plain and simple.
Not wanting to get takien down and GNP'd is not enough. You have to train for that. and you have to train for what happens when you get there. How do you keep a strong guard? how do you pass a guard? how do you get side dominance. how do you reverse? how do you mount and retain? all this is simply NOT available in traditional cma.

trad cma does indeed have a lot of stuff that is very useful for combat training in rbsd type stuff or competition type stuff, but it falls drastically short when it comes to out and out wrestling skills.

it is my experience that trad players don't know what to do mechanically when they are held to the ground and locked.

[Fu-Pow]

How much training does it take to beat someone senseless if you can sucessfully hold them down just using body-weight?

Maybe. Depends on the situation. I certianly prefer to stay on my feet, but it's not always my choice.

The issue is balance. If your balance is good then you can stay on your feet.



Clipping is specifically a block from behind, at or below knee level. Doesn't matter if it's offensive or defensive.


My bad, you are right about the definition of clipping. However, what you described before:



If you push down on a football player who is applying forward momentum on you, he'll just roll into your knees and clip you, which can not only take you down but also blows out your knees as well.

This is a technique I learned on the offensive line. Basically, a defensive lineman rushes in and you drop towards his knees and turn your body sideways. You are basically cutting him off at the knees. I can't remember if its legal or not.



You push on the guy's head, and he'll spin around and hit the back of your legs, much like a wrestler does when he misses a shoot and redirects the angle.
In fact, proper tackling is very similar to a proper shoot.

Hint: You don't push on guys head and then just stand there. You direct his forward energy downward but you stay in front of him.



I'll take a football player in a fight over a Taiji player anyday of the week.;)

Skilled Taiji vs football....I'd take Taiji anyday of the week. :cool:

[Fu-Pow]

I don't want to go anywhere near any arguments about Football and its relationship to fighting but there is a saying, actually a TCMA saying, that more TCMA people should take to heart

"The technique (strategy) you neglect (ignore) will be your defeat"

TCMA has a lot of great material, but the refusal by many to look outside their school or tradition has stagnated a lot of it

Good point. However, there is also a tendency to spread oneself to thin by trying to learn too many things at once...the "jack of all trades" argument.

Personally, I would like to learn some basic groundfighting if only so I can get back to my feet. I see the value but unless I was going to enter a UFC type event I wouldn't make groundfighting my main focus.

Should TCMA get over it's bias against "going to the ground"? That's a topic for another discussion.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with a couple of assessments.

1) Groundfighting, It's not all hidden or within Chin Na.

This is true. CMA doesn't for the most part address gground fighting in any manner whatsoever. It doesn't train fr it, it doesn't deal with it at all and often will just use some idea that Chin Na will help you when you are in the guard.

Absolute nonsense. Rule is, if you do not train for it, you are unprepared for most of it period. Wrestling and some form of groundfighting training will round out any traditionalist and to deny it is to ostrich on the issue.

2)there is such a thing as crossover skills, but only once again if they are properly trained in the correct environment for doing so. a football player cannot be assumed to know squat about fighting. They don't train to fight. They can adapt there strength to function in a combat environment but it would involve a whole lotta different body mechanics.

I would take a big guy over a little guy based on size and strength alone.
I would take a skilled guy over and unskilled guy based on "knows what to do".

I would also add, knowing throws does not equate to groundwork. That is a different skill set and is used to take something to the ground. Throwing skills have little to do with once you are there. Grappling skills are what you need once you are down there. CMA for the most part has zero grappling training and most cma purists have zero grappling skills. Grappling skills are found outside of cma. Throwing skills are there already, but again, you have to train that. It is not enough to say "we have that in our style in moves 37 through 49 of such and such a form". This approach will get you choke the fug out and quickly.

If you want to learn grappling, then you must practice it plain and simple.
Not wanting to get takien down and GNP'd is not enough. You have to train for that. and you have to train for what happens when you get there. How do you keep a strong guard? how do you pass a guard? how do you get side dominance. how do you reverse? how do you mount and retain? all this is simply NOT available in traditional cma.

trad cma does indeed have a lot of stuff that is very useful for combat training in rbsd type stuff or competition type stuff, but it falls drastically short when it comes to out and out wrestling skills.

it is my experience that trad players don't know what to do mechanically when they are held to the ground and locked.

Brilliant post. Agree with all of it.

[FatherDog]

A tackle is pretty much the stupidest thing you can do in a fight (unless maybe you are a groundfighter in a one-on-one situation) so I think most martial artists don't take them seriously....nor should they.

This statement is competely ridiculous on every level.

A) If you are in a one on one situation, and tackle someone, unless they have groundfighting training, you are basically going to beat them down from that point on - even if you don't know much, you are on top, where you can effectively strike them and they cannot effectively strike you.

B) Tackling someone involves going down with them, but it doesn't require you to /stay/ down with them. It's not difficult, nor does it require a lot of skill, to tackle someone, then stand up and put the boots to them. I've seen this happen in barfights on numerous occasions. Also, tackling someone, standing up, and running gives you a much better chance to get away than turning your back on someone trying to punch you.

C) If you're /not/ in a one on one situation, tackling /still/ isn't necessarily the wrong answer - if someone starts swinging on you in the middle of a club, it's a much better option to tackle them and hold them until the bouncers get there to pull you apart, rather than try to block and back up and hope nothing gets through your guard. If you're surrounded by people trying to hit you, ideally you want to clinch with one, throw, and try to escape through the "hole" that creates, but sometimes due to positioning ducking and tackling to create the same effect is necessary.

D) Regardless of whether it's "the stupidest thing you can do in a fight" or not, people do it, so not "taking it seriously" enough to train for it is idiotic.



If I'm fighting a groundfighter I would agree. But you're trying to equate ALL highschool wrestling and football players to the skills of a trained groundfighter. Weak connection.

No, I'm saying that once you get on top of someone on the ground, you don't /need/ to be a trained groundfighter to hold them down and hit them - it isn't very difficult. Getting out from under someone without getting your teeth fed to you is what requires training.



That was a joke. It's called "sense of humour."


Stick to what you're good at.



That's fine, there are that are more effective ways to get your point across to me.


If you choose to ignore someone pointing out that your hypothesis is wrong because they don't offer an alternate hypothesis, that's your problem. I'm here to discuss and debate, not cater to your particular preferences about how argument is conducted.

[BlueTravesty]

LOL @ all of the people here who have never fought full contact with weapons (nor probably ever even seen actual full-on weapons fighting) and pontificate about not going to the ground in battle without realizing how often these things end up on the ground, even when no one wants them to.

You're right about that, Knifefighter. I have yet to engage in any full-contact weapons training. But either I misunderstand you, or you misunderstand me. The situation I posited was one in which one guy, standing up, has a spear. The other two guys are rolling on the ground. One of those guys is his enemy, the other is not. The soldier standing up of course, will not intentionally kill his fellow soldier, but things happen.

Let me emphasize again: I have had no full-contact weapons training. However, I know enough of Physics, and the interaction of Pointy Things vs. Fleshy Things, to know that someone rolling on the ground can be EASILY stabbed. Especially with a 7-foot spear.

I AM NOT SAYING that no one in a battlefield-situation goes to the ground. What I AM SAYING is that surviving protracted groundfighting (any groundfighting that can be measured in increments of 30 seconds) is a matter of SHEER LUCK. Your skill in groundfighting WOULD NOT keep you from being shot by a stray arrow.

Moreover, Horses will not think to themselves "Whoa there, those two are grappling. And they're doing a mighty fine job of it too! Better respect their distance and NOT trample them into the dirt."

[Fu-Pow]

in my experience this argument has typically been made by the people who lack skill in a certain area as opposed to the ones who have skill in a variety of things: specifically, it's what the traditional TKD teacher will say when you tell him you want to learn jujitsu and arnis as well

however, I agree that learning too many new things at once can be a problem - obviously the key is learning things over time: once you have internalized the skill set for say, punching and kicking, then you store it in your nervous system at a different level than when you started out - and at that point you can start to acquire new info; and it's not like starting over completely - many of the principles carry over, and certainly the mind set necessary to develop martial skill does as well

in my mind, there is absolutely no reason not to learn groundfighting: and if you have to go "outside" TCMA to do it, who the freak cares?

Totally agree.

[Fu-Pow]

This statement is competely ridiculous on every level.

A) If you are in a one on one situation, and tackle someone, unless they have groundfighting training, you are basically going to beat them down from that point on - even if you don't know much, you are on top, where you can effectively strike them and they cannot effectively strike you.

B) Tackling someone involves going down with them, but it doesn't require you to /stay/ down with them. It's not difficult, nor does it require a lot of skill, to tackle someone, then stand up and put the boots to them. I've seen this happen in barfights on numerous occasions.

Also, tackling someone, standing up, and running gives you a much better chance to get away than turning your back on someone trying to punch you.

C) If you're /not/ in a one on one situation, tackling /still/ isn't necessarily the wrong answer - if someone starts swinging on you in the middle of a club, it's a much better option to tackle them and hold them until the bouncers get there to pull you apart, rather than try to block and back up and hope nothing gets through your guard. If you're surrounded by people trying to hit you, ideally you want to clinch with one, throw, and try to escape through the "hole" that creates, but sometimes due to positioning ducking and tackling to create the same effect is necessary.

D) Regardless of whether it's "the stupidest thing you can do in a fight" or not, people do it, so not "taking it seriously" enough to train for it is idiotic.

Sorry, your examples are laughable. Taking a fight to ground unless you know what you're doing is really stupid. I don't think being football player or highschool wrestler means you know what you're doing.




No, I'm saying that once you get on top of someone on the ground, you don't /need/ to be a trained groundfighter to hold them down and hit them - it isn't very difficult. Getting out from under someone without getting your teeth fed to you is what requires training.

First of all, you have to get some serious position to be able to punch someone as you describe. That requires knowing what you are doing.

Secondly, even if you get position how effective is punching someone when you are kneeling over them. Does that ever result in a knockout? Not that I've seen. When you are on the ground all the other guy has to do is cover up and you're hitting the side of his head with no power.

Thirdly, you are on top of the guy throwing punches. You better hope to god that its a one on one match in a ring of some sort. Otherwise you might be eating a beer bottle or chair on the back of your head....night, night.




If you choose to ignore someone pointing out that your hypothesis is wrong because they don't offer an alternate hypothesis, that's your problem.

Well you critiqued my hypothesis of why CMA doesn't have groundfighting but you didn't really get very far. I asked that you provide an alternative and you said you couldn't because you don't know much about Chinese martial arts. OK...then how am I supposed to take your criticism seriously. :confused:



I'm here to discuss and debate

Discussion and debate are forms of communication. Key portion being "commune." It takes at least two to communicate. But as I said maybe you are more interested in rhetoric and posturing rather than serious discussion.



, not cater to your particular preferences about how argument is conducted.

My sole purpose here is really not to argue. If I disagree with something I'll call it out but I'm really here to exchange ideas with other martial artists. If debate leads to good exchange of ideas than I'm cool. However, if people are abrasive or insulting to me then I'd just assume put them on my ignore list and not deal. Your ideas have to be really, really good for me to put up with bull$hit attitude...lkfmdc anyone?;).

[BlueTravesty]

Based off a certain Monty Python sketch. I'll leave it to you to figure out who is who. :)
M = Man Looking for Argument
A = Arguer

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

:D

[FatherDog]

First of all, you have to get some serious position to be able to punch someone as you describe.

No, you don't.


That requires knowing what you are doing.

No, it doesn't.


Secondly, even if you get position how effective is punching someone when you are kneeling over them. Does that ever result in a knockout? Not that I've seen. When you are on the ground all the other guy has to do is cover up and you're hitting the side of his head with no power.

Thank you for making it clear you have no clue about punches on the ground. Nothing you've just said is accurate, at all.


Well you critiqued my hypothesis of why CMA doesn't have groundfighting but you didn't really get very far.

You said that CMA doesn't have groundfighting because it's "for the battlefield". I noted that two of the three most prominent groundfighting arts were specifically developed for and on the battlefield. You... complained about me not proving an alternative hypothesis. Good debating skills!


My sole purpose here is really not to argue. If I disagree with something I'll call it out but I'm really here to exchange ideas with other martial artists. If debate leads to good exchange of ideas than I'm cool. However, if people are abrasive or insulting to me then I'd just assume put them on my ignore list and not deal. Your ideas have to be really, really good for me to put up with bull$hit attitude...lkfmdc anyone?;).

If you're so fragile you refuse to discuss an issue with someone that doesn't meet your prissy standards of politeness, that's your lookout. I'm not going to modify my usual mode of communication just because you're a wuss.

[Fu-Pow]

Time to change the channel :rolleyes:

You know, I really don't understand why some people are so angry. Are they're lives so miserable that they have to exact some sort of self-righteous vengeance on people posting on internet message boards that they've never met?

Life is too short by my measure.

[Ray Pina]

If it wasn't in there before it should be in there now (period).

[Fu-Pow]

If so, only on a basic level unless the student intends to fight in a venue where advanced skills are needed.

[MasterKiller]

If so, only on a basic level unless the student intends to fight in a venue where advanced skills are needed.

Technically, you only need basic level punching and kicking, too, unless you intend to fight in a venue where advanced skills are needed.

[Ray Pina]

If so, only on a basic level unless the student intends to fight in a venue where advanced skills are needed.

As a martial artists your training should focus 100% on beating a trained, skilled apponant. It should be up to date.

[PangQuan]

what if a student never plans on entering competition?

would you train them differently than you would a student who plans to make a competative fighting carreer?

so say when you train a student who is going to compete, you say: when your are taken down, here are some options. then show according training for particular situations.

what for the non competitor will you say, grab his ballz. pull and squeez. if you are in a dangerous lock, bite a mouth size chunk out. as well as the competative maneuvers.

just a curious.

i know real life you can bite and pull ballz. those things i think about. and you dont need any training for some stuff, just the will to keep your cool and act.

i mean seriously if i had to i would bite a chunk out of you that you would remember till the day you die. if my mouth was close to you in any way, arm, leg, face, buttocks. doesnt matter. animal.

so i think in a real situation you have many more options open. kneecaps, top of foot. small joint manipulation.

im not making any excuses im just seriously curious. do competative fighters not even consider the nasty things you can do to someone when in a lock?

would you let go if i bit of your thumb? or a chunk of your forarm or leg?

just wondering.

flame on i guess :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

im not making any excuses im just seriously curious. do competative fighters not even consider the nasty things you can do to someone when in a lock?

would you let go if i bit of your thumb? or a chunk of your forarm or leg?

just wondering.

flame on i guess :rolleyes:

Well, think about it. If you are biting, you probably aren't in the dominant position. So, unless the guy just freaks out and lets you up, he's going to beat the holy hell out of you for biting him once he gets over the initial shock.

Seriously, if I got bit, and was missing a chunk of flesh, I would maim that muther****er.

[David Jamieson]

so, are we going to define the finer points of biting? :rolleyes:

who here that trains traditional martial arts trains their bite grip?

how about claws? who trains how to scratch? lethally?

on to hair pulling, well, most fighters competiive or otherwise keep their hair short. It is smart to do so.

moving right along...

:p

[WinterPalm]

I think that because of the nature of street fighting that not knowing how to defend a variety of trips, clinch, takedown, and not knowing at least a couple things to do on the ground if this happens can be a bad thing. Imagine getting taken down and then HIS buddies start stomping you because you cannot get out. If you at least can sort of deal with this, you might avoid some of that beating but you should be very prepared for someone to shoot and to avoid, counter it.

A number of years ago I trained with a very strong friend of mine and he took me down without any knowledge of anything and set up for a ground and pound that would have hurt a lot. It is easy to get leverage on somebody when they are beneath you and yes, somebody takes fifteen shots to the head that way they are going to sleep.

In seriousness, a knife coming at you tops the risks next to a gun or grenade launcher or atomic warhead. You train to no matter what get out of the way of that knife...a punch, a kick, a tackle, or a trip can lead to much worse and so you should have solid defense that can be implemented immediately and effectively with maximium attention and intent.

All I have seen MMA do is take the basic attacks of punch, kick, and takedown, and put them into one person so that no longer will someone just box you or try to wrestle you but may do any combination of the above. It is still imperative to keep distance and set up defenses/offenses that can negate the opponents natural advantages or abilities.

[WinterPalm]

Oh yeah, biting???

Sure and then bring some hep c, a, b, AIDS, syphillis, whatever. Maybe you would bite at some point but that would not be something I would do.

Watch some early UFC's when hair pulling was allowed: Royce Gracie used it quite effectively.

I think training one's hands to deliver powerful blows with the finger tips or a claw is very important. It should be a given that you keep your most practical and immediate tools sharp and well oiled.

[PangQuan]

ya i would pound a guy for biting me too. suppose your not in a position to pound the biter? and what about pulling your ballz? or thumbing your eye.

everyone trains bite grip every day. provided they chew food. i could take a finger easy. :p

i mean all the stuff that is illegal is illegal for a reason right? what do you do if you get a finger in your eye? just tough it out? doubt it. what if i bite your wrist and you bleed to death?

i know this is all silly, but its reall too. and possible. but ive notices sport fighters often dismiss things like this. saying that its not possible or they are too good to get in a position like that. or that it doesnt happen in a sport fight.

i knew this guy once. his girlfriend was getting harrased by some guy, so he stepped up and tried to fight the guy. he started getting his ass kicked and it did go down. after some rolling around and punching the other guy started screaming. ends up my friend bit the dudes ear off. after he rolled away and got up he spit it at him. then the table turned very very quickly. he beat that guy so bad. now he is in prison for a long time. but he won, and that guy will never forget that.

thats the kind of stuff im talking about. im not saying this is a scenario anyone wants or will be in but i saw this sh!t happen with my own eyes. it was a dirty street fight on capital hill in seattle wa, no refs, no walls. concrete and blood.

i bet he woulda said if some guy bit his ear off he would beat his ass, but in reality he went into shock and got worked.

just sayin.

course my buddy was a freaking psycho...i guess that accounts for some rage but still.

[PangQuan]

dont know if he got any diseases or not. maybe. i dont think he cared at the time though.

[PangQuan]

i might point out i dont condone ignorance of gound fighting techniques.

i fully respect the ground and support its training needs.

i just like to view every possiblilty. and thumbs in my eye, a bitten off finger, my ballz ripped or fingers broken can happen to me.

i dont sport fight, doubt i ever will. call my a pusseh if you want i dont care.

but when i think about a confrontation i never view it from a sport aspect. i view it from an aspect where the other guy will be trained in all styles and will impliment all sorts of "dirty" techniques. including biting, breaking, rending, poking tearing, submission, pounding, knifes, guns, etc...

but ill add, that i train for myself. to better learn who i am, for something to do, because i love it, so i can help others and share what i learn, and for self defense.

[Ray Pina]

what if a student never plans on entering competition?

would you train them differently than you would a student who plans to make a competative fighting carreer?

so say when you train a student who is going to compete, you say: when your are taken down, here are some options. then show according training for particular situations.

I train my students to have structure, coordinated movements that produce power and position.

Because of what I am doing we train against the grappler a lot. So when someone shoots and we capture the head, I say, "On the street, drive off the leg and crank the neck like this... in a tournament, ride it out and then set up knees. If you can't knee, ride it out, look to strike the rib or just play from there."

The training consists on keeping a barrier between you and the shooter, the position. Other training trains the coordinated power of driving off the foot.

It's a matter of saying here's a screwdrive and a hammer. What you do with them is up to you, the time, the place.

[Ray Pina]

If you can bite me you could've head butted me long ago...

If you can pull my hair or poke my eye you could've punched me long ago.

I expect you to kick my balls. I expect you to do everything...... can you?

[PangQuan]

thanks for the response about training ray.


as for biting i mean like, if someone has you in an arm lock using thier legs. i cant head butt a leg and get results, but i can bite it.

i mean isnt there a place for every tool? isnt biting a tool that has a place? even if its .000000000001% of a place its there right?

what if my opponent has a good defense against striking and he is on top of me. i try to hit him in the face but he deflects or blocks it or what not, but i can worm an arm up there, but not in the form of a punch, get my finger in that eye, or his nose. rip an ear...

dunno. just stuff i think about. im not trying to say these are probable or the answers to any situations, but i dont like to ignore any possiblity.

what do i do when a guy has his thumb over my eye and is putting pressure as i am on top of him and pounding. he goes into survival mode cause its on the street and has a finger in my eye.

i would roll the f away. and quicks.

[Ray Pina]

thanks for the response about training ray.
as for biting i mean like, if someone has you in an arm lock using thier legs. i cant head butt a leg and get results, but i can bite it.

i mean isnt there a place for every tool? isnt biting a tool that has a place? even if its .000000000001% of a place its there right?

My thinking is like this: if I'm good enough to get around all your defenses and lock your head with my legs, I'm good enough to sense the change in pressure, the feeling, which will indecate you're going for a bite.... I release the lock and then stomp on your head. I can do that because I have position on you. I have poistion on you because my overall game is better.

That's why these last chance tactics are really that, the last failed attempt to do something to someone who has dominated the encounter.

[Ray Pina]

responses, such as fingers in eyes, etc., are much like going to a doctor and asking what to do once you have AIDS.

Prevention! Not a cure.

[PangQuan]

lol

ya. thanks for entertaining my curiosity.

[Fu-Pow]

Technically, you only need basic level punching and kicking, too, unless you intend to fight in a venue where advanced skills are needed.To


To some degree I would agree with that statement. However, for self-defense, the reason most people want to learn martial arts in the first place, its better to stay on your feet.

So I would spend more time learning to stay and fight on your feet rather than working on the ground.

[ronro]

Better learn how to wrestle then. It is the art which best teaches takedown defence.

[unkokusai]

Secondly, even if you get position how effective is punching someone when you are kneeling over them. Does that ever result in a knockout? Not that I've seen.


Then you haven't seen much.



Thirdly, you are on top of the guy throwing punches. You better hope to god that its a one on one match in a ring of some sort. Otherwise you might be eating a beer bottle or chair on the back of your head....night, night.


But if you are standing up in a group of people no one would dream of hitting you with that bottle or chair, right? Come on...

[unkokusai]

ya i would pound a guy for biting me too. suppose your not in a position to pound the biter? and what about pulling your ballz? or thumbing your eye.

everyone trains bite grip every day. provided they chew food. i could take a finger easy. .


The same tired old song from folks who just have to believe there is a shortcut...:rolleyes:

[PangQuan]

haha, you dont read everything do you?

you apparently did not read every word i wrote or at least you cannot understand it. one or the other.

you dont know me at all.

"i might point out i dont condone ignorance of gound fighting techniques.

i fully respect the ground and support its training needs."

did you read where i said that? didnt think so.

your a brainiac arent you...:rolleyes:

further more, i put EVERY possiblity out there, all of them. and i feel if someone does not do that, then they are fooling themselves something fierce. did you see anywhere where i state anything to the effect that these techniques are shortcuts or the end all in fighting? NO, cause i didnt. because im not an idiot. but im smart enough to know they are a real possiblity and HAVE happened many many times in many many situations. ignore if you want. remane igrnorant. your choice.

[Fu-Pow]

Then you haven't seen much.

Are you trying to be insulting?






But if you are standing up in a group of people no one would dream of hitting you with that bottle or chair, right? Come on...

That kind of misses the point. If you are stationary in one position doing the ol' ground and pound you are totally vulnerable. At least on your feet you options, like running away for example.

[Merryprankster]

People seem to be forgetting the most important part of groundfighting training here...

I have 5 years of wrestling behind me and 6 or so of BJJ.

Arguments about "what if," aside, the question is not "who can *I* hold down," but "who can hold ME down?"

The answer is "some percentage of the well trained grappling community, and not a big percentage of the population at large.

In a single or multiple opponent situation there is a strong possibility that I might fall. That I might be blindsided, or that I might trip over a chair or something. It happens to the best of us all.

I know how to fall, and I know how to GET UP, even when I've got a 300 lbs monster on top of me. And I know this because I've done it.

As Fatherdog pointed out, if you are stuck underneath somebody like that, you are in trouble. There's no two ways about it.

The idea about groundfighting is not that the ground is necessarily the best thing to do...it is that with such training, you get to have a greater say in where the fight goes and remains.

Without it, somebody else might make that choice for you.

FYI, for the biters - doing that to get out of an armbar may be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. It's possible the guy will scream and let go. It is more likely, IMO, that what they will do, is scream and reflexively stiffen up. Think about it. When placed in a situation where somebody does something a bit unexpected, that is a threat your body tenses up and goes on alert.

If you are trying to get out of an armbar and the fellow has it locked in well, and you bite to try and escape they may break your arm out of reflex.

Incidentally, if you were to bite me and I didn't jump and let go, I would absolutely break your arm for doing it. Then I would probably break something else out of spite.

Lastly, if the biting is going to work, it's going to work to create space - and if you don't know how to take advantage of that space, you're very rapidly going to find yourself back in a similar position - with a person who is now quite ****ed off and highly aware that you are a biter.

I'm not saying that biting doesn't have a (limited) role in self-defense. I'm suggesting that like any "dirty trick," you need to know how to take advantage of the conditions it creates. And that takes solid basics.

Unless, of course, that person is a giant ***** and decides to quit becuase you bit them :D

[Fu-Pow]

The idea about groundfighting is not that the ground is necessarily the best thing to do...it is that with such training, you get to have a greater say in where the fight goes and remains.

Great point. I think the question is how much of your training time should be devoted to it?

My argument is that in a self-defense situation it is preferable to stay on your feet so that training to stay there is where the focus of training should be....as it is in most traditional asian arts.

For certain combat sports the situation is different. The probability that you will be taken down and have to engage in groundfighting is very high. If you are good at groundfighting its actually desirable to go there. Therefore, your training should reflect those realities.

Should TCMA players learn some groundfighting, yes absolutely. Should it become a focus of their training, no absolutely not, unless they intend to enter MMA type events. Stick to what you're good at.

Another thing that MMA types with no TCMA experience need to realize is that players with good stances and root are not going to be easy to take down. Arts like Hung Ga for example, I believe were designed to deal with wrestlers. That's why they emphasize short range techniques and low solid stances.
With good internal artists you're going to have a hard time finding somewhere to push or grab onto, etc, etc.

[BlueTravesty]

Another thing that MMA types with no TCMA experience need to realize is that players with good stances and root are not going to be easy to take down. Arts like Hung Ga for example, I believe were designed to deal with wrestlers. That's why they emphasize short range techniques and low solid stances.
With good internal artists you're going to have a hard time finding somewhere to push or grab onto, etc, etc.

I've seen the point about low stances brought up before, but some grapplers on the board responded by saying a lower center of gravity made it easier to sweep. It must be a different kind of sweep than I'm thinking of (footsweep- i.e. a low circular "sweeping" kick designed to take someone's feet out.) I have no idea since I've never done any sort of real grappling.

[unkokusai]

haha, you dont read everything do you?
.


I read only too much of your nonsense. Half-hearted disclaimers aside, you go ahead and depend on biting people's fingers. You'll end up with what you deserve.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Are you trying to be insulting? .

Are you trying to be ignorant? If you've never seen someone held down and pounded into unconsciousness, then you haven't seen too many altercations.







That kind of misses the point. If you are stationary in one position doing the ol' ground and pound you are totally vulnerable. At least on your feet you options, like running away for example.

I think it is you who is missing the point. If you don't see someone, then you are as vulnerable standing as on the ground if you are "stationary" for the one second it takes to swing that bottle. Your apparent ignorance of what can be done on the ground, should one have to, makes you think that "you are totally vulnerable" because you 'imagine' someone just laying motionless waiting for something bad to happen. People who have trained to fight on the ground, should you have to (and sooner or later you will), have trained to move on the ground, to control position and to give themselves every advantage there that they can. If you are fighting standing up and someone wants to blindside you and break a bottle over your head, there is a good chance they will. If you find yourself fighting more than one person, the likelihood you will end up off your feet is even greater, and if "running away" were an option you would be well advised to exercise it before the issue of standing up or on the ground even comes up.

[unkokusai]

Another thing that MMA types with no TCMA experience need to realize is that players with good stances and root are not going to be easy to take down. Arts like Hung Ga for example, I believe were designed to deal with wrestlers. That's why they emphasize short range techniques and low solid stances..


This is one of the worst assumptions of all, and one that people dwelling in the realm of 'theory' make all too often. You don't stop a takedown attempt by being stationary, you do it by moving. "Low solid stances" may make for dramatic poses, but are not your best bet for takedown defense.

[Fu-Pow]

This is one of the worst assumptions of all, and one that people dwelling in the realm of 'theory' make all too often. You don't stop a takedown attempt by being stationary, you do it by moving. "Low solid stances" may make for dramatic poses, but are not your best bet for takedown defense.

One of the worst assumptions of all is that low stances makes for a strong root. That's only part of it.

[Fu-Pow]

Are you trying to be ignorant? If you've never seen someone held down and pounded into unconsciousness, then you haven't seen too many altercations.

Seen it? I've been there, before I did martial arts that is.





I think it is you who is missing the point. If you don't see someone, then you are as vulnerable standing as on the ground if you are "stationary" for the one second it takes to swing that bottle.

This is a no brainer man. The lower your head is to the ground the easier it is to kick, punch, stomp, swing stuff etc. If you are on your hands and knees you are less mobile than when you are on your feet.

If you don't think so then I challenge you to $1000 dollar race...you on your hands and knees, me on my feet.





Your apparent ignorance of what can be done on the ground, should one have to, makes you think that "you are totally vulnerable" because you 'imagine' someone just laying motionless waiting for something bad to happen.

That's not what I envisioned at all. What I envision is somebody kneeling over another person pounding them or holding them in some chokehold and then there buddy smashing a heavy object over their head or worse....



People who have trained to fight on the ground, should you have to (and sooner or later you will), have trained to move on the ground, to control position and to give themselves every advantage there that they can.

OK....



If you are fighting standing up and someone wants to blindside you and break a bottle over your head, there is a good chance they will.

Haha...oddly enough I've been there too. I had a beer bottle smashed right into my temple in a bar fight but guess what.... I stayed on my feet and didn't try to tackle one of the guys so I could "control" him while his buddy kicked out my teeth. I stayed on my feet covered up my head and they had a hard time connecting with me at all.



If you find yourself fighting more than one person, the likelihood you will end up off your feet is even greater, and if "running away" were an option you would be well advised to exercise it before the issue of standing up or on the ground even comes up.

That's the smartest thing you've said yet. :p ;)

[unkokusai]

Seen it? I've been there, before I did martial arts that is.

Then why did you say it wouldn't happen?





This is a no brainer man. The lower your head is to the ground the easier it is to kick, punch, stomp, swing stuff etc. If you are on your hands and knees you are less mobile than when you are on your feet.

See previous post:rolleyes:



If you don't think so then I challenge you to $1000 dollar race...you on your hands and knees, me on my feet.

Oh, so now its a race is it?




That's not what I envisioned at all. What I envision is somebody kneeling over another person pounding them or holding them in some chokehold and then there buddy smashing a heavy object over their head or worse....

But no one could do that if they were standing...................:confused:




Haha...oddly enough I've been there too. I had a beer bottle smashed right into my temple in a bar fight

So I guess it can happen after all!

[Knifefighter]

Another thing that MMA types with no TCMA experience need to realize is that players with good stances and root are not going to be easy to take down. Arts like Hung Ga for example, I believe were designed to deal with wrestlers. That's why they emphasize short range techniques and low solid stances.
With good internal artists you're going to have a hard time finding somewhere to push or grab onto, etc, etc.

It doesn't matter how low your stance is or how good your "root" is, if you don't practice defending against takedowns, someone who practices takedowns will have a relatively easy time taking you down.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
Seen it? I've been there, before I did martial arts that is.

Then why did you say it wouldn't happen?

It was one of those rare one on one situations where groundfighting would have been handy. I probably wouldn't have needed to know much though.

It would have been better to stay on my feet in the first place. The reason I went down was because I got my clock cleaned in the standup portion of the fight, not because I was tackled. Plus I didn't know ANY martial arts at the time.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
That's not what I envisioned at all. What I envision is somebody kneeling over another person pounding them or holding them in some chokehold and then there buddy smashing a heavy object over their head or worse....

But no one could do that if they were standing...................

Fighting on the ground you are going to be less mobile and more vulnerable to multiple opponents. Do you dispute this?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu-Pow
Haha...oddly enough I've been there too. I had a beer bottle smashed right into my temple in a bar fight

So I guess it can happen after all!

Yes, it can and I guess I have a pretty hard head :p. However, if I'd tried to take it to the ground I fear it would have been much worse for me. I'd much rather take a punch then a steel toed boot any day of the week...unless your last name happens to be Tyson....;)

My point is this, in multiple attacker situation:

-Running away is the best thing to do (don't try to be a hero).
-Staying on your feet is better (more mobile, more chance to get away).
-Going to the ground and getting up right away is 2nd best.
-Going to the ground and trying to fight there is worse.
-Trying to take the fight to the ground is the worst choice.

In single opponent situation (including combat sports):

-Whether groundfighting is preferable depends on your level of groundfighting skill in relation to your opponent.

Since on the street you don't know when a single opponent situation may become a multiple opponent situation it is best to stay on your feet.

Therefore, the bulk of training for self-defense should revolve around:

1) Staying on your feet to begin with.
2) Learning enough groundfighting to get up and out if it goes there.

TCMA has plenty of strategies to do number 1, but very little to none in the way of number 2.

Conclusion, TCMA players should learn at least some elementary groundfighting skills so that they can fight from there preferred position and also be aware of strategies for being taken down. Unless TCMA fighters want to compete in a groundfighting-heavy combat sport they should focus on number 1.

That is all. :cool:

[BigPandaBear]

I've done TMA and MMA for the better part of 15 years. What always strikes me about TMA practicioners is a constant belief in the superiority of ancient techniques. What many TMA practicioners fail to realize is that those ancient techniques have been refined and codified to the newer styles of martial arts. They also fail to realize that training means a hell of a lot in both sport venues and the street. A lean, toned athelete has a better chance of surviving an encounter than an out of shape couch potato that does Kung Fu on Mondays and Wendesdays for 2 hours. That's simply reality.

I've seen tons of "skinny white boys" go up against more athletic a-holes and get their butts beat. Those stories of a the karate kid catching a beat down from a high school wrestler are mostly true.

One fine example is boxing vs TMA. I have seen VERY few TMA black belts/sashes who can go toe-to-toe with an amatuer boxer. They simply don't have the stamina, power, or speed that an amatuer boxer posseses. The samething occured 50 years ago when wrestlers began to infiltrate Judo and mop the floor with Judo experts. However, many Judokas got smart and incorporated wrestling into classical Judo, and entire art benefitted from it. This occured again when Brazilian JJ and the UFC brought Judo groundfighting back to the forefront.

You think Matt Hughes can only kick *** in the ring? I'd bet money that Mr. Hughes can wipe the floor with 95-99% of the "masters" teaching TMA today.

If I wanted my daughter to learn about the culture, history, beauty, etc. of a given Asian country, I'd certainly enroll her in a TMA class.

If I wanted my daughter to have the tools to possibly survive an assualt or a rape I'd enroll her in an MMA class.

Its that simple.

[BlueTravesty]

Boxing and Kickboxing are like a couple of multi-purpose tools. They might not cover any and every circumstance, but they'll get the job done most of the time. Less versatility, more reliability.

A typical TMA style gives the practitioner a whole toolbox. Many, many tools for every situation. However, when the need arises, you have to dig through the toolbox in order to find the "right tool." This is fine when you have the luxury of time on your side.

In a fight you don't have such a luxury. So to put the analogy into perspective, the kickboxer can use their jab, cross, roundhouse, knee in a blink because that's what they've trained. If a TMAist is not careful they'll end up falling into the trap of "freezing up" or "overthinking." (not able to access the necessary tool.)

What a TMAist who is serious about fighting needs to do is find the tools in the toolbox they feel will work best for them, and carry those tools. i.e. practice and hone that small core of techniques. They need to keep those tools free of rust and grime also (conditioning.) You can still learn all the fun stuff (weapons, forms, jumping kicks, etc.) But you need to practice your core techniques, and practice them against resisting opponents when possible. I am still struggling with this, but doing much better than I was when I getting hit while digging through my toolbox.

[BigPandaBear]

Boxing and Kickboxing are like a couple of multi-purpose tools. They might not cover any and every circumstance, but they'll get the job done most of the time. Less versatility, more reliability.

A typical TMA style gives the practitioner a whole toolbox. Many, many tools for every situation. However, when the need arises, you have to dig through the toolbox in order to find the "right tool." This is fine when you have the luxury of time on your side.

In a fight you don't have such a luxury. So to put the analogy into perspective, the kickboxer can use their jab, cross, roundhouse, knee in a blink because that's what they've trained. If a TMAist is not careful they'll end up falling into the trap of "freezing up" or "overthinking." (not able to access the necessary tool.)

What a TMAist who is serious about fighting needs to do is find the tools in the toolbox they feel will work best for them, and carry those tools. i.e. practice and hone that small core of techniques. They need to keep those tools free of rust and grime also (conditioning.) You can still learn all the fun stuff (weapons, forms, jumping kicks, etc.) But you need to practice your core techniques, and practice them against resisting opponents when possible. I am still struggling with this, but doing much better than I was when I getting hit while digging through my toolbox.

I completely agree. Training is a big problem in a lot of TMAs, and a lot of students are on their own in pulling what is useful, and discarding what isn't useful.

This video btw is quite telling;

http://mplay.donga.com/dkbnews/2004/0401_ohvsjin.wmv

Two masters of traditional Chinese MA fighting like a bunch of girls in a ring. I can't help but feel that an amatuer boxer/kickboxer would have wiped the floor with both of them....

at the same time.

[FatherDog]

Time to change the channel :rolleyes:


The lengths some people will go to to avoid reality is sad.

[FatherDog]

I have no idea since I've never done any sort of real grappling.

That's something you have in common with anyone saying that "low stances" and "internal power" will prevent them from being taken down.

[SevenStar]

People seem to be forgetting the most important part of groundfighting training here...

I have 5 years of wrestling behind me and 6 or so of BJJ.

Arguments about "what if," aside, the question is not "who can *I* hold down," but "who can hold ME down?"

The answer is "some percentage of the well trained grappling community, and not a big percentage of the population at large.

In a single or multiple opponent situation there is a strong possibility that I might fall. That I might be blindsided, or that I might trip over a chair or something. It happens to the best of us all.

I know how to fall, and I know how to GET UP, even when I've got a 300 lbs monster on top of me. And I know this because I've done it.

As Fatherdog pointed out, if you are stuck underneath somebody like that, you are in trouble. There's no two ways about it.

The idea about groundfighting is not that the ground is necessarily the best thing to do...it is that with such training, you get to have a greater say in where the fight goes and remains.

Without it, somebody else might make that choice for you.

FYI, for the biters - doing that to get out of an armbar may be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. It's possible the guy will scream and let go. It is more likely, IMO, that what they will do, is scream and reflexively stiffen up. Think about it. When placed in a situation where somebody does something a bit unexpected, that is a threat your body tenses up and goes on alert.

If you are trying to get out of an armbar and the fellow has it locked in well, and you bite to try and escape they may break your arm out of reflex.

Incidentally, if you were to bite me and I didn't jump and let go, I would absolutely break your arm for doing it. Then I would probably break something else out of spite.

Lastly, if the biting is going to work, it's going to work to create space - and if you don't know how to take advantage of that space, you're very rapidly going to find yourself back in a similar position - with a person who is now quite ****ed off and highly aware that you are a biter.

I'm not saying that biting doesn't have a (limited) role in self-defense. I'm suggesting that like any "dirty trick," you need to know how to take advantage of the conditions it creates. And that takes solid basics.

Unless, of course, that person is a giant ***** and decides to quit becuase you bit them :D


best

post

ever

[SevenStar]

I've seen the point about low stances brought up before, but some grapplers on the board responded by saying a lower center of gravity made it easier to sweep. It must be a different kind of sweep than I'm thinking of (footsweep- i.e. a low circular "sweeping" kick designed to take someone's feet out.) I have no idea since I've never done any sort of real grappling.

a lower stance - especially if it's wider - leave great openings for techniques like o uchi gari and ko unchi gari. While the lower center makes you harder to throw (I have to get my center below yours) it doesn't do much for defending sweeps and takedowns. Also, most people I know who don't wrestle, train judo, etc. Don't think in terms of throwing in combinations. Is your root and low stance so mobile that you can stay rooted and counter my throws that are coming back to back? For example, I throw seionage (shoulder throw) and you sink your weight. I immediately turn and attack with o soto gari. You step out of that and I attack with harai goshi... just as the saying goes "punches in bunches" you throw in the same fashion.

[Fu-Pow]

a lower stance - especially if it's wider - leave great openings for techniques like o uchi gari and ko unchi gari. While the lower center makes you harder to throw (I have to get my center below yours) it doesn't do much for defending sweeps and takedowns. Also, most people I know who don't wrestle, train judo, etc. Don't think in terms of throwing in combinations. Is your root and low stance so mobile that you can stay rooted and counter my throws that are coming back to back? For example, I throw seionage (shoulder throw) and you sink your weight. I immediately turn and attack with o soto gari. You step out of that and I attack with harai goshi... just as the saying goes "punches in bunches" you throw in the same fashion.

Can you translate the Judo lingo for us non-Judo players. This is the "Kung Fu" forum after all.

FP

[SevenStar]

my bad...

seoinage - shoulder throw
harai goshi - sweeping hip throw
o uchi gari - major inner reap

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/haraigoshi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm

[Ou Ji]

Cool links.

BTW, Kung Fu has harai goshi.

[IRON KONG]

one of the problems with tma's is that they learn all thier forms and techniques, but dont learn to use the in an actual fight, its like learning the alphabet and not knowing how to write a sentance.

[BlueTravesty]

one of the problems with tma's is that they learn all thier forms and techniques, but dont learn to use the in an actual fight, its like learning the alphabet and not knowing how to write a sentance.

Interesting perspective! Another way to look at it is like learning a foreign language, and you're taught the alphabet, basic words etc. then out of the blue your teacher starts you on sentences that translate to "The cats are eating the library, the Kantian giraffes make my underwear chafe." Not that it isn't fun to be able to say those sentences, and it's sure to contain important words, but the way the sentence is strung together has no bearing on the language itself.

And I agree, MerryPrankster's is the most relevant post on this thread.

[BigPandaBear]

Interesting perspective! Another way to look at it is like learning a foreign language, and you're taught the alphabet, basic words etc. then out of the blue your teacher starts you on sentences that translate to "The cats are eating the library, the Kantian giraffes make my underwear chafe." Not that it isn't fun to be able to say those sentences, and it's sure to contain important words, but the way the sentence is strung together has no bearing on the language itself.

Yeah but dancing around in forms for 5-10 years when you can be just as effective in a matter of months in modern martial arts seems a bit silly doesn't it? Why train 10 years in a given CMA when a boxer who's trained for 10 months can beat the tar out of you?

Seeing those 2 Kung Fu grandmasters fighting in that vid I posted is a little disheartening.


And I agree, MerryPrankster's is the most relevant post on this thread.

Couldn't agree more.

[IRON KONG]

the reason why a boxer and a mma fighter can be effective at what they do in 10 monts or less is because all they train is to fight. tma fighters train not only to fight but they trian wepons chi gong and other skills you cant learn in 10months or less.

[Water Dragon]

the reason why a boxer and a mma fighter can be effective at what they do in 10 monts or less is because all they train is to fight. tma fighters train not only to fight but they trian wepons chi gong and other skills you cant learn in 10months or less.

So why not start with the fighting and then teach the more advanced stuff; after the basics are learned. What's ten months or less in the overall scheme of grand googly moogly?

[BigPandaBear]

So why not start with the fighting and then teach the more advanced stuff; after the basics are learned. What's ten months or less in the overall scheme of grand googly moogly?

Great point. 95% of people doing MA are trying to be better fighters anyway. Might as well give people what they're looking for.

Nothing is more disheartening to a traditional practicioner than getting creamed by a wrestler, boxer, etc.

[Water Dragon]

Exactly. After 2 years in MMA, all the CMA I learned is starting to make sense. I can 'see' what's going on now.

[BigPandaBear]

Exactly. After 2 years in MMA, all the CMA I learned is starting to make sense. I can 'see' what's going on now.

Samething happened to me after 6 months of taking Judo and Boxing after doing TMA for the better part of 10 years. For some reason, I couldn't put it all together.

However, after rolling around on a Judo mat and getting my clock cleaned in a boxing ring, I began to wipe the floor with my fellow classmates in TMA. Judo, Boxing, MT, Bjj, wrestling, and other arts really do a lot to break down your "comfort zone".

[Fu-Pow]

my bad...

seoinage - shoulder throw
harai goshi - sweeping hip throw
o uchi gari - major inner reap

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/haraigoshi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm

Maybe we're going off tangent here but....

Looking at these flash animations the guy in blue has a very high center of gravity. Could you execute these on a Hung Gar master? It's not like he's going to stand there in horse stance and let you throw him. He'll be throwing crap at you the whole time.

Furthermore, I think that Judo would be very ineffective against and art like Taiji. The throws seem to be based on the assumption of high center of gravity and forward momentum. In Taiji you strive to have no center at all and your net momentum is always zero....ie for every foward motion there is an opposite motion.

[Fu-Pow]

Exactly. After 2 years in MMA, all the CMA I learned is starting to make sense. I can 'see' what's going on now.

Did it ever occur to you MMA folks that maybe you just got some really crappy kung fu instruction? I know there's more than a few charlatans out there.

[Fu-Pow]

So why not start with the fighting and then teach the more advanced stuff; after the basics are learned. What's ten months or less in the overall scheme of grand googly moogly?

That's basically what we're doing in our program...a 3-month crash course in basics including western boxing basics.....no forms....then we get on to the more intricate stuff.

[Water Dragon]

wtf dude? You know the caliber of men who taught me.

[BigPandaBear]

Maybe we're going off tangent here but....

Looking at these flash animations the guy in blue has a very high center of gravity. Could you execute these on a Hung Gar master? It's not like he's going to stand there in horse stance and let you throw him. He'll be throwing crap at you the whole time.

Furthermore, I think that Judo would be very ineffective against and art like Taiji. The throws seem to be based on the assumption of high center of gravity and forward momentum. In Taiji you strive to have no center at all and your net momentum is always zero....ie for every foward motion there is an opposite motion.

You do know that ALL low stances have weak sides to them right? Also low stances make you very immobile. Even people in low stances can get knocked off balance, its not hard to do at all.

And no, Judo is not based on the assumption of a high center of gravity. In randori, people constantly shift their weight so they are NOT thrown. People aren't sitting there waiting to be thrown, the whole point is to RESIST the throw in the first place. Thus, when a Judoka is actually going against your proposed Taiji fighter, they'll be in a perfect position to put the Taiji fighter on their back because of randori. Once they're on the ground, its all over thanks to Judo newaza (ground fighting).

[Water Dragon]

Once they're on the ground, its all over thanks to Judo newaza (ground fighting).

I hate fat middle aged Judo men.

[David Jamieson]

Fat middle aged judoka are hard to move. :)

But yeah, I am with WD in that mma type training will open your eyes to a lot of the cma training you've already gotten. There isn't a lot of matwork or FC sparring in trad schools for the most part. That's becoming a thing again, I think because the times demand it I suppose.

[MasterKiller]

Did it ever occur to you MMA folks that maybe you just got some really crappy kung fu instruction? I know there's more than a few charlatans out there.

Same could be said for you, Fu. I know you've had some issues while training against boxers. Maybe your striking training just sucks.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe we're going off tangent here but....

Looking at these flash animations the guy in blue has a very high center of gravity. Could you execute these on a Hung Gar master? It's not like he's going to stand there in horse stance and let you throw him. He'll be throwing crap at you the whole time.

Furthermore, I think that Judo would be very ineffective against and art like Taiji. The throws seem to be based on the assumption of high center of gravity and forward momentum. In Taiji you strive to have no center at all and your net momentum is always zero....ie for every foward motion there is an opposite motion.

You don't just walk up and grab a guy and throw him. First you off-balance him by using Swallowing or Spitting energy (push/pull).

Anyone can be thrown.

[Fu-Pow]

wtf dude? You know the caliber of men who taught me.

This isn't about you personally, I'm just saying in general it is something to consider.
There is good kung fu out there, traditional kung fu but you really gotta search for it.

[Fu-Pow]

Same could be said for you, Fu. I know you've had some issues while training against boxers. Maybe your striking training just sucks.

I have had some problems sparring with a training partner (now business partner) who was an amateur boxer but I don't know that it speaks to the quality of what I have been taught in terms of kung fu but rather that I have had to modify my kung fu because of limitations imposed by sparring.

Choy Lay Fut is kind of an all or none style. The really devastating stuff you either go full out with it or you need to use something else. The reason is that the movements are long and big. If you shorten them up you lose power. If you do them half-power they're too slow. So you either have to use them balls out or just use something else.

The other issue I was having involved the boxer's hook-punch, which is so effective that I've incorporated it into my training regimine ;) .

Anyways, the issue was not the quality but rather issues with modification.

[Ou Ji]

wtf dude? You know the caliber of men who taught me.

So, you're saying the guys who taught you CMA were top notch yet for some reason you had to train MMA to learn how to fight and understand your CMA?

WTF dude?

[SevenStar]

Maybe we're going off tangent here but....

Looking at these flash animations the guy in blue has a very high center of gravity. Could you execute these on a Hung Gar master? It's not like he's going to stand there in horse stance and let you throw him. He'll be throwing crap at you the whole time.

Furthermore, I think that Judo would be very ineffective against and art like Taiji. The throws seem to be based on the assumption of high center of gravity and forward momentum. In Taiji you strive to have no center at all and your net momentum is always zero....ie for every foward motion there is an opposite motion.


are they dependent on a high center? no. Some of them do depend on your center being lower than his, which is why I posted the sequence that I did. - I can't get below your low center on the first throw, then follow with something else, then follow with something else.

FWIW, I have grappled taiji guys. throwing them was no problem, really. Please, don't say it's because they weren't real taiji guys... And no, they are by no means based solely on forward momentum (you can throw in 8 directions), or momentum at all, for that matter.

[SevenStar]

Same could be said for you, Fu. I know you've had some issues while training against boxers. Maybe your striking training just sucks.

ouch......

[SevenStar]

So, you're saying the guys who taught you CMA were top notch yet for some reason you had to train MMA to learn how to fight and understand your CMA?

WTF dude?


He did have some very good teachers. David also agreed though, as do I. There is a lot that was opened up to me once I really got into the sport stuff. I bet MK would be in agreeance also.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

So, it goes something like this..... about 15 years ago i was training at a well known and respected TCMA school, their forms were amazing and very atheletic.. but, the "sparring" was not much more than loosely controlled brawling.. you couldn't tell it was TCMA, not to mention a specific style.. a few of us had healthy histories in other fighting arts (Yoshukai, TKD, Aikido, MT, etc...) so we met after class (at school or away) and worked our way through real-time applications of the system's forms.. and we got pretty good at it, too..

One Friday evening one of the students said, "you guys shoud see this stuff".. he had a video of one of the early prototypes of MMA/UFC events.. he was an Okay guy, so we invited over for some brews and a gander at the video.. an hour and a half later, 6 of us who thought we were pretty good sat there in stunned silence as we realized that the reality was upon us.. Jesse says, "welp, besides being screwed, we got some serious work to do"..

MMA was an introduction to the real potential out there.. potential in competition, but worse.. potential in the street where there's no ref to save your butt.. We agreed to up the ante and start training with the notion that we might run into one of these guys someday.. None of us trained like we were going to the Cage, but we trained like one of those guys might get loose..

No system is complete in and of itself. That could be why MMA evolved, somebody got their butts handed to them on the street, even though they used the best their system had to offer.. wisdom implies that when you go to war you take the most and use the best..

I stay true to my nature, i favor TCMA.. but, i've been around long enough to know that reality demands diversity, i enhance my TCMA with such other training as to afford me an understanding of how to best utilize TCMA and, if necessary, some experience with which to cope with matters not addressed by the particular style of TCMA that i train in..

We will all nit-pick and rationalize our favorite perspectives, but.. perspectives go out the window when faced with reality.. something works or it doesn't, and the proof is clearly observable.. There is no reason to discard TCMA, but many reasons to enhance it...

Be well...

[Fu-Pow]

are they dependent on a high center? no. Some of them do depend on your center being lower than his, which is why I posted the sequence that I did. - I can't get below your low center on the first throw, then follow with something else, then follow with something else.

FWIW, I have grappled taiji guys. throwing them was no problem, really. Please, don't say it's because they weren't real taiji guys...

Sorry I've got to because I don't know the quality of Taiji players that you grappled. Is it authentic or is it hippy dippy community center stuff? There's A LOT of Taiji folks that don't know what they are doing because its been coopted by the new age movement and places like Dahn Yoga.

I'm sorry that you are naive to good Taiji, where do you live?...maybe I could recommend a good teacher to give you a friendly demonstration.



And no, they are by no means based solely on forward momentum (you can throw in 8 directions), or momentum at all, for that matter.

Did I say solely? The examples you presented require a high center of gravity and forward momentum. The whole concept of Judo throws is based on the idea that you can get under your opponents center of gravity and add to their forward, backward, sideways...whatever.....momentum. You can't throw dead weight that easily.

Taiiji players have a very dubious "center" to begin with so you are going to have a hard time getting under it....if you can find it at all. Where is the center of a spiral?

FP

[PangQuan]

as usual, well put bob.

[Fu-Pow]

You do know that ALL low stances have weak sides to them right? Also low stances make you very immobile. Even people in low stances can get knocked off balance, its not hard to do at all.

People with low stances, yes. People with root, no. Do you know the difference?



And no, Judo is not based on the assumption of a high center of gravity. In randori, people constantly shift their weight so they are NOT thrown.

Shifting your weight doesn't mean you don't have a high center of gravity.



People aren't sitting there waiting to be thrown, the whole point is to RESIST the throw in the first place.

Which is anti-thetical to Taiji.



Thus, when a Judoka is actually going against your proposed Taiji fighter, they'll be in a perfect position to put the Taiji fighter on their back because of randori.

:confused:



Once they're on the ground, its all over thanks to Judo newaza (ground fighting).

It would never go there.

[MasterKiller]

It would never go there.

What if the Taiji guy steps in the puddle of blood pouring out of the Judoka's head after a well-timed Single-Whip and he slips? What does the Taiji guy do then once "not going there" is no longer an option?

:rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

What if the Taiji guy steps in the puddle of blood pouring out of the Judoka's head after a well-timed Single-Whip and he slips? What does the Taiji guy do then once "not going there" is no longer an option?

:rolleyes:


:p :p :p :p :p :p

[Fu-Pow]

No system is complete in and of itself. That could be why MMA evolved, somebody got their butts handed to them on the street, even though they used the best their system had to offer.. wisdom implies that when you go to war you take the most and use the best..

That's pretty much how all martial arts styles evolved.

Both the arts I practice a compendiums several if not many other styles.

Choy Lay Fut=Northern Shaolin, Lay Ga and Hung Ga.

Hun Yuan Taiji=Chen Taiji, Xing Yi, Tong Bei + some Ba Gua and other stuff.

The best martial artists are the ones that don't limit themselves. Which is why I think that this MMA business is so silly.....as if there's one formula (ie Judo, BJJ and Muy Thai.) :rolleyes:

Those guys are going to be in big trouble when the kung fu hands, chin na and throwing gets into the mix. I just heard from one of my kung fu brothers in Florida that one of his fighters entered a MMA competition and sent the other guy to the hospital.

Chinese arts don't have groundfighting so you need to pick that up elsewhere but the other stuff is already there, waiting to be exploited by MMA participants....if they aren't to blind to see it.

FP

[Ou Ji]

Nice post TCB but if you had any real fights you wouldn't have been so surprised by the MMA/UFC.

See, this is what I don't understand. I guess there are a lot of peeps that trained in MA without having any real fights.

Most of my fighting was done before I ever took a formal class. I also trained at schools where you had to apply what you learned. Yes, I've been to the forms only type of school but that was well after the real fights/live training and I was mostly interested in MA as a hobby.

I just find it hard to believe that there are so many clueless MA peeps out there. I'm sure the 'forms only' schools are a small number.

So how about a head count on who got into fights before they trained formally?

How many tried out what you were learning for real before you 'grew up'?

[Fu-Pow]

Nice post TCB but if you had any real fights you wouldn't have been so surprised by the MMA/UFC.

See, this is what I don't understand. I guess there are a lot of peeps that trained in MA without having any real fights.

Most of my fighting was done before I ever took a formal class. I also trained at schools where you had to apply what you learned. Yes, I've been to the forms only type of school but that was well after the real fights/live training and I was mostly interested in MA as a hobby.

I just find it hard to believe that there are so many clueless MA peeps out there. I'm sure the 'forms only' schools are a small number.

So how about a head count on who got into fights before they trained formally?

How many tried out what you were learning for real before you 'grew up'?

*raises hand*

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Nice post TCB but if you had any real fights you wouldn't have been so surprised by the MMA/UFC.I'm going to dismiss that remark, for now.. the stunned silence was due to seeing reality encroaching into the "gentlemanly" sport of sanctioned pugilism.. but, if you think, for a second, that i lack extensive and hard street time, you are incorrect.. I (we) simply didn't expect it to become a competition format.. i also advise care in off-hand remarks regarding the experience or capabilities of people you don't know.. i know folks that would slap you to ground for a remark like that, seriously..

Be well..

[Ou Ji]

Didn't mean it as an insult. Wasn't exactly directed to you personally but since I was responding to your post it went in your direction. It spurred a thought so I threw it out there. Maybe you needed to clarify like you did in the response.

The point being I know you are familiar with real fighting which is why I don't understand the shock. Don't take it personal, I'm questioning the general CMA public.


i also advise care in off-hand remarks regarding the experience or capabilities of people you don't know..

Who says I don't know them? :)

[BigPandaBear]

People with low stances, yes. People with root, no. Do you know the difference?

I know what root is, and its largely mystical mumbo jumbo. Where are all these people with "root" who can stop a takedown? Why aren't they competing? Do you know how much money a given instructor could make by showing people how to stop a shoot or a throw? Do you know what that would do for TCMA?

They don't do it because they know it doesn't work outside their kwoon/dojo/school.



Shifting your weight doesn't mean you don't have a high center of gravity.

Shifting your weight doesn't mean you don't have a low center of gravity either. Judokas are trained to throw resisting opponents. If you're sitting there "rooting" a good Judoka will change up and nail you with another throw or takedown. If you feel your "rooting" is giving way, you'll instinctively resist by shifting your weight in another direction, and a good Judoka will pick up on that as well.

The bottom line is that I've never seen any Kung Fu man, Karateka, etc. be able to withstand a takedown from a wrestler, Judoka, Bjj, etc. by "rooting" themselves. If you have some proof, I'd love to see it. Seeing is believing afterall.



Which is anti-thetical to Taiji.

So a Taiji user isn't going to resist a throw?



:confused:

I'll simplify for you;

A typical Judo class consists of 2 or more people grabbing, gripping, and throwing each other at full speed, and full resistance. Thus when its time for a Judoka to actually use what they've learned, its ingrained in their minds because they've spent countless hours actually doing the technique in the gym against a resisting opponent whom is often bigger than they are.

Judo sparring looks more like a fight than sparring in a TCMA class. Just like real figthing looks more like a UFC match than a Jackie Chan movie. If you think you're going to be dancing around your opponents with your Kung Fu, you're living in a dream world.



It would never go there.

Then why aren't Taiji people destroying opponents in the UFC or Pride? If they couldn't be taken to the ground in a controlled competition, they'd have a HUGE advantage in such events. C'mon man, you seriously can't believe the stuff you're typing here.

[Fu-Pow]

I know what root is, and its largely mystical mumbo jumbo. Where are all these people with "root" who can stop a takedown? Why aren't they competing? Do you know how much money a given instructor could make by showing people how to stop a shoot or a throw? Do you know what that would do for TCMA?

They don't do it because they know it doesn't work outside their kwoon/dojo/school.

Uh huh right.....only Judo works.





Shifting your weight doesn't mean you don't have a low center of gravity either. Judokas are trained to throw resisting opponents. If you're sitting there "rooting" a good Judoka will change up and nail you with another throw or takedown. If you feel your "rooting" is giving way, you'll instinctively resist by shifting your weight in another direction, and a good Judoka will pick up on that as well.

The bottom line is that I've never seen any Kung Fu man, Karateka, etc. be able to withstand a takedown from a wrestler, Judoka, Bjj, etc. by "rooting" themselves. If you have some proof, I'd love to see it. Seeing is believing afterall.

You don't know what root means.





So a Taiji user isn't going to resist a throw?

Not in the sense that you are thinking of.





I'll simplify for you;

Thanks I don't need any simplification.



A typical Judo class consists of 2 or more people grabbing, gripping, and throwing each other at full speed, and full resistance. Thus when its time for a Judoka to actually use what they've learned, its ingrained in their minds because they've spent countless hours actually doing the technique in the gym against a resisting opponent whom is often bigger than they are.

And the difference between that and freestyle push hands is?




Judo sparring looks more like a fight than sparring in a TCMA class. Just like real figthing looks more like a UFC match than a Jackie Chan movie. If you think you're going to be dancing around your opponents with your Kung Fu, you're living in a dream world.

I'm just going to ignore that because of its ridiculosity.





Then why aren't Taiji people destroying opponents in the UFC or Pride? If they couldn't be taken to the ground in a controlled competition, they'd have a HUGE advantage in such events. C'mon man, you seriously can't believe the stuff you're typing here.

The short answer....it just hasn't happened....YET.

The long answer....because learning takes patience. And the patience that you learn from doing something like Taiji makes you less likely to want to compete for something as trivial as a MMA/UFC type event. Where as the MMA people are people that want it all now and they train for simplicity over elegance.

A side note:

When people want to put down Chinese martial arts they point to usually point to the most ridiculous claims by the most ridiculous exponents of a particular style. Its a strawman that's easy to knock down instead of looking at the huge body of knowledge that is ripe for the picking. But you gotta sift through that knowledge yourself and that takes work. Its not going to come to you pre-packaged.

Most of real Chinese martial arts is extremely pragmatic and well thought out. People who want to put it down point to the theatrical or semi-mystical. Oh well...your loss. Eventually you are going to be eating punches and throws from TCMA practitioners....not if...but when.

[PangQuan]

im really good at shooting your basic compound bow.

i can hit the target, i could compete. do i? no. does that mean my arrow is any less straight or true to its mark? no.

look beyond your ego there is much to experience in all sides and to resist any side is to limit your own knowledge.

we are the only ones that suffer from our self imposed ignorance.

there are many good points in this discussion, as well as there are many points that reak of personal opinion and biased outlooks.

[SevenStar]

Sorry I've got to because I don't know the quality of Taiji players that you grappled. Is it authentic or is it hippy dippy community center stuff? There's A LOT of Taiji folks that don't know what they are doing because its been coopted by the new age movement and places like Dahn Yoga.

I'm sorry that you are naive to good Taiji, where do you live?...maybe I could recommend a good teacher to give you a friendly demonstration.

there are four in the immediate area, and I know them all. two of them also teach cma - one wushu and the other longfist. One teaches wing chun and muay thai.




Did I say solely? The examples you presented require a high center of gravity and forward momentum.

No, they don't. they require you to have a higher center than me - not necessarily "high", just higher than mine, and broken balance. listening energy, then swallowing. those set up the kazushi (off balancing) and tskuri (fit in) which lead to kake - the execution. momentum can help, because it causes you to offbalance yourself, but it's not required.


The whole concept of Judo throws is based on the idea that you can get under your opponents center of gravity and add to their forward, backward, sideways...whatever.....momentum. You can't throw dead weight that easily.

says who? you are only referring to a small circle of techniques. none of the takedowns require this, except the single leg, double leg and scoop throw. several of the throws - like harai goshi are independent of that as well. If what you said was true, judo would utterly suck for tall people. That's like saying the whole concept of CLF is wide, telegraphic haymaker style strikes.


Taiiji players have a very dubious "center" to begin with so you are going to have a hard time getting under it....if you can find it at all. Where is the center of a spiral?


his center is whereever it happens to be once I break his balance. Anyone can be thrown.

[Fu-Pow]

there are four in the immediate area, and I know them all. two of them also teach cma - one wushu and the other longfist. One teaches wing chun and muay thai.

Discounting the wushu and longfist teacher have you tried hands with the other two. If so, what is their lineage?



No, they don't. they require you to have a higher center than me - not necessarily "high", just higher than mine, and broken balance. listening energy, then swallowing. those set up the kazushi (off balancing) and tskuri (fit in) which lead to kake - the execution. momentum can help, because it causes you to offbalance yourself, but it's not required.

But if I have no momentum then it requires that you use strength.




says who? you are only referring to a small circle of techniques. none of the takedowns require this, except the single leg, double leg and scoop throw. several of the throws - like harai goshi are independent of that as well. If what you said was true, judo would utterly suck for tall people.

I'm referring to the techniques that you presented.


That's like saying the whole concept of CLF is wide, telegraphic haymaker style strikes.

And yet people want to tell me about my art all the time and how ineffective it is, how its dancing and how much better Muy Thai, Judo and BJJ are. :rolleyes:



his center is whereever it happens to be once I break his balance. Anyone can be thrown.

You will not "break" a good Taiji players balance. It would be like a mouse trying "off-balance" a water balloon.

[SevenStar]

Which is anti-thetical to Taiji.

In a classical sense, it goes against what judo teaches as well. But guess what? reality dictates that this is not always the case.


It would never go there.

you really don't know that, do you?

[SevenStar]

Discounting the wushu and longfist teacher have you tried hands with the other two. If so, what is their lineage?

a student of one of them. The teacher trained under francis fong.




But if I have no momentum then it requires that you use strength.

it only requires a nudge to break someone's balance. However, you will see a lot of strength used in judo, as well as resistance. It's called "the gentle art" but that's something of a misnomer.





I'm referring to the techniques that you presented.

you must only be looking at two of them. o uchi gari requires no forward momentum at all from the opponent.



You will not "break" a good Taiji players balance. It would be like a mouse trying "off-balance" a water balloon.

right - and you'll never take down a player with good root either...

[Fu-Pow]

you must only be looking at two of them. o uchi gari requires no forward momentum at all from the opponent.

That's a combo, sweep/throw. I actually like that one because it reminded me more CMA, giving you more than one thing to deal with at a time.

Sevenstar, I don't usually agree with you but I must say that your web fu is high caliber.

Thanks for playing its been fun but I have some things I need to focus on now that are higher priority. We just started a totally ineffectual martial dancing class and I need to deal with some administrative details surrounding it.

Peace

FP

[BigPandaBear]

Uh huh right.....only Judo works.

I never said that, nor do I believe that. However, I've been around long enough to see that you can't stop a skilled takedown by "rooting" yourself.


You don't know what root means.

You mean the ability to use "chi" to keep yourself planted on the ground and immovable? There's only so much "root" can mean when you're talking about stances.


Not in the sense that you are thinking of.

Of course not. :rolleyes:



And the difference between that and freestyle push hands is?

I've never seen an assailant "push hands" with someone. I've seen plenty try clinching, tackling, and attempting to throw someone. Most rape victims end up on their backs with a bigger, stronger assailant on top of them. You think "Push hands" is going to save them from that? Judo Newaza and/or Bjj groundfighting certainly can.



I'm just going to ignore that because of its ridiculosity.

Um, what's ridiculous about it? I've personally seen several fights end up looking just like a UFC match; Two overgrown gorillas wrestling around on the ground trying to gain the upper hand, OR two overgrown gorillas clinching each other and throwing wild blows, OR a skinny kid getting tackled by an overgrown gorilla, OR the good old fashion ground and pound.

I've NEVER seen anything look remotely like a Chinese form in a real situation. NEVER. The only noticeable MA stance I ever saw was a very narrow back stance.



The short answer....it just hasn't happened....YET.

Contemporary Taiji will be 200 years old in 10 years. Its older than the majority of MAs taught in a MMA curriculum.

In other words, if it hasn't happened yet, it isn't going to happen.


The long answer....because learning takes patience. And the patience that you learn from doing something like Taiji makes you less likely to want to compete for something as trivial as a MMA/UFC type event. Where as the MMA people are people that want it all now and they train for simplicity over elegance.


Fighting isn't elegant. The prettiest you're going to get is Mohammud Ali, and even some of his fights will make you wince.

MMA people like Bruce Lee, The Gracies, etc. want what WORKS. Not some mystical mumbo jumbo that is going to get you pounded in the dirt. Instead of spending 10-15 years attempting to "root" yourself, why don't you spend 10-15 months actually learning how to avoid getting stomped on the ground?

In fact why spend 10-15 years in a TCMA when I'll end up fighting like a kickboxer? Why not just spend 1-2 years actually studying kickboxing?

I live in a very logical world my friend. I believe what I see. I don't believe in myths and stories that have no empirical evidence to back them up. If I see one group of martial artists saying "Meet us anytime, anyplace and we'll prove our art to you", I tend to put more stock in their claims. If I have another group of artists who say "Our art can stop anything, but its too deadly to prove except behind closed doors", I'm less inclined to believe them. Especially when money is involved.


A side note:

When people want to put down Chinese martial arts they point to usually point to the most ridiculous claims by the most ridiculous exponents of a particular style. Its a strawman that's easy to knock down instead of looking at the huge body of knowledge that is ripe for the picking. But you gotta sift through that knowledge yourself and that takes work. Its not going to come to you pre-packaged.

Most of real Chinese martial arts is extremely pragmatic and well thought out. People who want to put it down point to the theatrical or semi-mystical. Oh well...your loss. Eventually you are going to be eating punches and throws from TCMA practitioners....not if...but when.

Herein lies your problem; Criticizing TCMA is not HATING TCMA. If you say that Judo is ineffective against a TCMA practioner, someone is going to call you on it. Judo has proven itself behind closed doors, on the streets, AND in the ring.

I don't hate the TCMAs, I hate the elite attitude that individuals like you express. If TCMAs are so superior, then simply prove it. I'd LOVE to see a pure TCMA practioner (much less a Taiji practioner) win a MMA competition. So would the entire MA community. It would cause a revolution in competitive fighting and self defense that would benefit EVERYBODY.

However we both know its never going to happen. When Gracie JJ challenged Judo, several Judokas stepped to the plate and put it all on the line. Now people crosstrain between both styles, and both are better for it. When Boxing challenged Judo, Gene Lebelle stepped up to the plate with a bum shoulder and put it all on the line.

Everyone knows why TCMA purists don't put it all on the line. Everyone except TCMA purists that is. :p

[hskwarrior]

Since this topic pertains to MMA and TCMA, I was hoping to get a simple answer to a simple question which has to do with focus mit training.

My question is this....."during focus mit training with MMA I've noticed that the one holding the focus mits always seems to meet the strikes about half way through, what is the reasoning behind meeting the fist as opposed to letting the fist get to the focus mit?"

Is it to give him a harder target to strike? Is it just the focus mitt persons choice?
What are the advantages to that?

I've done both. I meet the strikes while holding the mits out of habit, plus i control the mits instead of letting them fly. And i've also let the person make his way to the mits to strike it to teach that distance factor.

No, i've never trained MMA so, forgive my basic questions. Truthfully, I've never really checked out others training methods too much. didn't want to seem like i;m biting.

anyways, premature thanks to anyone who helps in my MMA education.


HSK

[SevenStar]

That's a combo, sweep/throw. I actually like that one because it reminded me more CMA, giving you more than one thing to deal with at a time.

on the same hand, those three techniques I posted can be strung together into a combination, giving you multiple things to deal with...


Sevenstar, I don't usually agree with you but I must say that your web fu is high caliber.

Actually, coming from you, I appreciate that comment :D




Thanks for playing its been fun but I have some things I need to focus on now that are higher priority. We just started a totally ineffectual martial dancing class and I need to deal with some administrative details surrounding it.

dancing is cool, but admin work blows....

Peace

FP[/QUOTE]

[SevenStar]

Since this topic pertains to MMA and TCMA, I was hoping to get a simple answer to a simple question which has to do with focus mit training.

My question is this....."during focus mit training with MMA I've noticed that the one holding the focus mits always seems to meet the strikes about half way through, what is the reasoning behind meeting the fist as opposed to letting the fist get to the focus mit?"

Is it to give him a harder target to strike? Is it just the focus mitt persons choice?
What are the advantages to that?

yeah, you are giving him resistance. Also, in the case of thai pads, you save yourself some hurt. when feeding the roundhouse, I've made several padholders hit themselves in the face with the pads from the kickback of my kick. When they resist against the kick, they are less likely to hit themselves.

[hskwarrior]

First and foremost, I am claiming to be neutral here, and can see both sides of the coin.

For the MMA folks, simple things like push hands can be effective in street combat, not in a continous motion of back and forth, but in a brief instance it can be effective in a small way leading into something else.

As someone who has had many many street fights in my life I know how fast a fight can be, plus it's unpredictability, and I agree that rooting is not effective over a properly done throw, or even a take down. However, since i've always focused on the practicaltiy of TCMA for street combat, the only time i would root is if i am going to throw a power strike.

However, rooting can be effective against a throw if the whole body is used at the same time (what i mean is attemtping to resist). Having a strong root can mean our sweeps are stronger than someone with fast shuffling feet not connected to the ground. In our school a full connection is when both toes and heels are firmly planted in the ground. I can speak from experience since I was paralyzed from the waist down and had to re-learn everything from scratch. Having to relearn proper weight distribution, how much pressure to use on the floor, and so forth, I feel my root is decent. But can a man who's got momentum pull you from your root of course. No one's roots is that strong.

anyways, not all TCMA people fit the mold of the image MMA has for us. True fighters know that forms only play a minute part in learning how to use your system. True fighters will dissect what works, and throw away what doesn't. The one way to do that is to exchange hands with those from other styles, even getting into a few street brawls, or even training at a MMA camp.

I've come to realize there is only a small percentage of TCMA out there that truly know how to use their system as it was taught to them. When TCMA starts putting in the training like MMA does when it comes to fighting is when TCMA will start getting it's recognition.

With my students, our main focus is usage of the system, then forms for a form of condition (cardio). We spar, we use all the proper padding equipment, and we try to cut out the bs. I know we can't use the techniques as they are in forms, but some of the combinations that are in those forms are great.

In actuality, there is a lot that both sides can learn from each other. MMA can sharpen those fighting skills, while TCMA has some beautiful combinations to offer, concepts that work, and so on.

one day I would like to see a cross of TCMA and MMA training. although it's probably already out there.


peace

[Water Dragon]

Since this topic pertains to MMA and TCMA, I was hoping to get a simple answer to a simple question which has to do with focus mit training.

My question is this....."during focus mit training with MMA I've noticed that the one holding the focus mits always seems to meet the strikes about half way through, what is the reasoning behind meeting the fist as opposed to letting the fist get to the focus mit?"

Is it to give him a harder target to strike? Is it just the focus mitt persons choice?
What are the advantages to that?

I've done both. I meet the strikes while holding the mits out of habit, plus i control the mits instead of letting them fly. And i've also let the person make his way to the mits to strike it to teach that distance factor.

No, i've never trained MMA so, forgive my basic questions. Truthfully, I've never really checked out others training methods too much. didn't want to seem like i;m biting.

anyways, premature thanks to anyone who helps in my MMA education.


HSK

They're holding wrong. You do want to 'play paddy cake' with the guy punching, but you're not really meeting him halfway. You're giving him something solid to hit. Also, if the holder 'meets' you too hard, he can injure your hand.

[hskwarrior]

seven star,

thanks, we're on the same page.

In class my students get hit pretty hard if they don't meet the strikes as well. Our Sow Choy's, Biu Jong's and even alot of our fast swinging circular techniques have sent my students to the floor from hitting themselves.

I just wanted to know if there was a more scientific reason behind it, but thanks again.

hsk

[BigPandaBear]

First and foremost, I am claiming to be neutral here, and can see both sides of the coin.

For the MMA folks, simple things like push hands can be effective in street combat, not in a continous motion of back and forth, but in a brief instance it can be effective in a small way leading into something else.

Anything can be effective. I was just pointing out Fu Pow's notion that Push Hands is anything like Judo Randori.


As someone who has had many many street fights in my life I know how fast a fight can be, plus it's unpredictability, and I agree that rooting is not effective over a properly done throw, or even a take down. However, since i've always focused on the practicaltiy of TCMA for street combat, the only time i would root is if i am going to throw a power strike.

However, rooting can be effective against a throw if the whole body is used at the same time (what i mean is attemtping to resist). Having a strong root can mean our sweeps are stronger than someone with fast shuffling feet not connected to the ground. In our school a full connection is when both toes and heels are firmly planted in the ground. I can speak from experience since I was paralyzed from the waist down and had to re-learn everything from scratch. Having to relearn proper weight distribution, how much pressure to use on the floor, and so forth, I feel my root is decent. But can a man who's got momentum pull you from your root of course. No one's roots is that strong.

Like I said to Fu Pow, it'd be FAR more advantageous to someone trying to avoid being thrown to actually train with wrestlers and Judokas. Saying that your "root" can help prevent a throw is pure speculation. Saying that you can bite, claw, etc your way out of an armbar is also pure speculation.



anyways, not all TCMA people fit the mold of the image MMA has for us. True fighters know that forms only play a minute part in learning how to use your system. True fighters will dissect what works, and throw away what doesn't. The one way to do that is to exchange hands with those from other styles, even getting into a few street brawls, or even training at a MMA camp.

True fighters would be MMA people by default. No true fighter would ignore an entire fighting method because it didn't look "pretty" or because it wasn't Chinese. Bruce Lee for example was good at Wing Chun, but he saw Mohammud Ali box and he immeadiately took up boxing. It only made him a better fighter.


one day I would like to see a cross of TCMA and MMA training. although it's probably already out there.


peace


As would I. However, what does TCMA really have to offer MMA?

Not much I would say.

[Water Dragon]

As would I. However, what does TCMA really have to offer MMA?


I tend to use Chinese footwork, bridging, and entries with boxing handwork. Works well for me.

[BigPandaBear]

I tend to use Chinese footwork, bridging, and entries with boxing handwork. Works well for me.

Interesting. What Chinese style?

[Water Dragon]

Most of the footwork I've been using comes from Word Boxing. The bridgework and entries are a combination fo things I've been taught over the years. I know that there's some Tai Chi, Southern Mantis, Kun Tao, Shuai Chiao, and who knows what else in there. Of course there's also a lot of Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco, and Judo in there too. I don't even really know what's what anymore. Honestly, I don't really care. I 've found some good stuff that works real well for me.

[BigPandaBear]

Most of the footwork I've been using comes from Word Boxing. The bridgework and entries are a combination fo things I've been taught over the years. I know that there's some Tai Chi, Southern Mantis, Kun Tao, Shuai Chiao, and who knows what else in there. Of course there's also a lot of Boxing, Muay Thai, Greco, and Judo in there too. I don't even really know what's what anymore. Honestly, I don't really care. I 've found some good stuff that works real well for me.

I'm curious, do you mix in Chinese hand techniques with boxing mechanics? If so what are the results? I had a friend who blended his Aikido with boxing and he became a rather nasty individual.

[BlueTravesty]

So why not start with the fighting and then teach the more advanced stuff; after the basics are learned. What's ten months or less in the overall scheme of grand googly moogly?

This is a great idea. Sifu typically has us learn basic strikes and kicks, and then once we earn the white belt (usually after a students' first two months.) We are allowed to start sparring. We still learn some of the advanced stuff as we go along (forms, high kicks, weapons, etc.) But we focus on the basics; backfists, straight punches, roundhouses, ridgehands, push kicks, etc.as well as Low kicks that we don't use in sparring yet (I'm told we can use them later when we get the control we need not to blow out a classmate's knee.)

I think the reason Kung Fu wasn't typically taught this way had to do with the responsibility a teacher had to take for his students' actions. If the student went and did something really stupid, the teacher would usually be held responsible. While I know MMA is a more quick way to learn, I find CMA to be much more fun. I don't really care about being "TEH ULTIMAET FIGHTAR MACHINE!!" if I'm not having a lot of fun on the way. simple as that.

[David Jamieson]

resistance on the mitts is good for both the guy holding them and the guy hitting them.

a little resistance for the puncher and more control of the target surface by the holder.

[Water Dragon]

I'm curious, do you mix in Chinese hand techniques with boxing mechanics? If so what are the results? I had a friend who blended his Aikido with boxing and he became a rather nasty individual.

Not in the way that you're thinking. I tend to use Beng Chuan a lot. It works real nice for me. Other than that, my hand work as far as striking goes is boxing adapted for MMA. What I am doing that I think might be different is that I use my boxing as more of a bridge than anything else.

Most of the Chinese 'hand techniques' I use come from Shuai Chiao and usually come at the end of a combo.

Here's an example of what I've been playing with. Throw a jab-cross then a lead. But as you throw the lead, step forward with the back foot so that you end up throwing a cross. That's one of the footwork patterns, it's a simple step forward that changes your lead. But it also takes you off to the side at a 45. (You;re basically ending up in the same position you would be in if you were doing O Soto) You throw it at the end of the combo to hide the footwork and get him on the defense. You WILL NOT pull this off if the guy see the footwork.

Now, instead of making that last punch a punch, just hook his neck instead. You got a lot of stuff from here. There's a real nasty knee a la Muay Thai right there, also a no shadow kick, O Soto Gari, and a bunch of other stuff.

[Water Dragon]

resistance on the mitts is good for both the guy holding them and the guy hitting them.

a little resistance for the puncher and more control of the target surface by the holder.

Another benefit a lot of people don't talk about is that when you hold, you learn to track punches. After a while, they just don't seem as fast. You also learn where the punch is coming from so that helps with your defense immensely. The cool thing is, you don't even have to focus on it. It just happens!

[Knifefighter]

I'm sorry that you are naive to good Taiji, where do you live?...maybe I could recommend a good teacher to give you a friendly demonstration.

I'm on FP's ignore list, so maybe someone can ask him to recommend one of these Taji players who cannot be taken down who might be in the Los Angeles, CA area.

I'd love a demonstration of this.

Of course, I'm guessing that, conveniently, none of them are around here.

[hskwarrior]

when i said "Bite" i meant steal, sorry.:o

[unkokusai]

You will not "break" a good Taiji players balance. It would be like a mouse trying "off-balance" a water balloon.


...................:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

It would never go there.





HAHAAAHHAAAhahahahahahahahahaahaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ou Ji: Jesse's experience, as far as i know, is largely point sparring in a competitive format, but.. his size and willingness to engage seems to neutralize most aggressors in the street scene.. playing around with Jesse you get the sense of being a mouse in a cat's game.. Troy wasn't at that particular meeting, but.. if you know Troy, his first remark would be , Cool, let's do THAT.. actually, i think he was on one of his early retreats out to Dan Innosanto's place.. i don't think i've ever met someone so willing to explore every possibility of combat as Troy.. and, annoying as it is, he gets good at anything "new" very quickly.. note: Troy is now a certified Orange County Firefighter/EMT.. another of his "I'm gonna do that" things... he's also training with Raffi again..

Now, i'm curious.. how do you know us? Are you a former/current Temple dweller? Do you know Cliff, the Ninjitsu guy? deceptively impressive! Cliff had classes at Troy's and my school (Extreme Harmony), and i've learned to appreciate much of the Ninjitsu wisdoms, simple and effective.. Troy's Muay Thai and Mo Hahn classes were great.. his natural talent for JKD, though, is nothing short of impressive..

Anyway, i responded from a perspective of personal values.. i do not question or comment on other people's abilities, regardless of my familiarity.. if i have issues with someone's claims, i PM them directly.. i do engage in lively banter regarding the arts themselves.. i will describe my training and some of my experience (there's still warrants on some of it :D ), but i never make a claim as to my own quality.. the only evidence of anyone's quality is in the crossing of hands.. i hope you understand that my response was well intended, and.. if you know the circles i/we run in (from sedate Taiji classes to Muldoon's Biker Bar) you understand that last line..

By the way, Rick Barrett is having a seminar this weekend over at Nick's school in Dunedin.. if you're interested, i will forward you the info.. and, i am hosting Dr. Yang again this coming January...

Be well...

[Ou Ji]

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. The forum must be getting to you. You still doing the parking garage training?

I'm not real big on Nick Scrima's stuff but who is Rick Barrett?

Not really into the Tai Chi ball either. Will he offer a day of Chin Na or apps? I might head down there for some good Chin Na.

[lostdragon]

I didn't have time to go through all the posts, so I hope I'm not repeating a lot of what is been said. I think the impact of MMA on kung fu is/will be having to consider the martial side of the martial arts.

Some people may consider this a challenge to their "turf". I consider it an opportunity for those that desire to be realistic with regards to fighting to evaluate what it is that they do and become more effective in certain situations. Where other people may believe that there are two separate entities -- traditional training and fighting -- I do not. You should be able to fight with what you know, and if you're not, you're not studying something that is applicable to combat.

And yes, mixed martial arts are not necessarily an exact replication of street fighting, but they do advance certain thematic elements of fighting to the forefront. I suppose that I am also thinking of not just mixed martial arts, it also street fighting, backyard brawling, etc. -- the ability shoot video inexpensively and disseminate that through various video serviceshas also provided information about fighting that I don't think has been around for the mass public to evaluate before.

I hope, very much, this is not interpreted as a challenge to traditional Chinese martial arts at all -- but rather interpreted as a call to reevaluate how to apply the vast repository of knowledge that's found therein. Some of what is done is very flowery, and not very practical-- or better stated has a very limited scope of practical application. Other stuff is very practical most of the time.

The answer is not to be found in redefining TCMA to look more like jujitsu or karate or kickboxing or anything else -- it is found in looking at what one has, in considering how it is to be effective in combat. A huge mistake that many people make is to assume that combat will adhere to one's technique or style. Rather a style should be used as a starting point to learn the principles and concepts of solid fundamental skills, tactics, strategies, mindsets in order to be effective in a real fight.

anyway, I'm probably repeating what everyone else has said. It is always a pleasure to read what people are writing when I have the time to do so. and again, I hope my comments are not interpreted as a challenge to how people are training. Not everyone wants to train to be effective from a combative standpoint-- other people simply like to tradition, the effects on physical, mental, emotional, spiritual well-being or what have you. That's okay -- but I find it concerning when the same people feel they're adequately prepared to handle something that they may not be, and end up getting hurt.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ou Ji: You didn't ruffle my feathers.. i felt compelled to express my value system in an attempt to deflect the possibility of dialogue that might reach the level of ruffles.. i have no issue with the current state of affairs, and appreciate the dialogue.. Occasionally, the forum does "get to me".. i am amazed at the levels people will go to in an effort to impress others or enhance their own image of themselves.. I am amazed at the disrespect people show toward others, it is a poor representation of a discipline that teaches "self-control"..

Friday, Jan. 12 will be Chin Na from 6:00p-9:00P.. Sat. will be Taiji Ball all day.. Sun. will be Push-hands, internal structure.. all day..

Rick Barrett: http://www.taichialchemy.com/RickBarrett.htm

This isn't Nick's stuff, it's Rick's hands-on study relating to his book: Through the Western Gate.. i wouldn't recommend it if i didn't feel it had real merit.. I've read the book and done a 1 hour seminar with him at Nick's tournament, it is sufficiently intriguing to warrant further investigation on my part.. in short, he offers very convincing evidence (physical and text) of the, generally, untapped power of our Connective Tissue system.. i have been experimenting with this concept since the seminar and find no inconsistencies with the theory or practice.. in as much as i can practice based on a 1 hour seminar and a book.. that's why i want to have a more in-depth experience, to test this concept in a more valid setting and with someone that seems to have a good handle on it.. Most of my students are attending based on my limited demonstrations of what i gained from the seminar..

I see that you have avoided the query of identity.. are you PL? I feel at a disadvantage not having any idea with whom i am communicating when you seem to have a notion of who i am.. just asking? :)

Be well..

[PangQuan]

I read only too much of your nonsense. Half-hearted disclaimers aside, you go ahead and depend on biting people's fingers. You'll end up with what you deserve.:rolleyes:

i find you can learn a lot about a person by thier responses to something they dont like.

for instance, i mention biting. you automatically assume thats all i do. for your information i never have bitten anyone, nor do i plan to unless i absolutely have to.

for instance i learned from your responses, that you like to formulate your own ideas of what people are and what they do, and then you believe your dribbled nonsense.

classic man, utterly classic. continue on captain delusional.

[KC Elbows]

I'm on FP's ignore list, so maybe someone can ask him to recommend one of these Taji players who cannot be taken down who might be in the Los Angeles, CA area.

I'd love a demonstration of this.

Of course, I'm guessing that, conveniently, none of them are around here.

Not that he claims to be "unthrowable", he'd probably agree that what makes you hard to throw from one direction at one moment makes you an easy target from a slightly different angle, but there's a guy in the San Diego area by the name of Michael Reyes, a cma internalist who trained in a variety of other styles, who is friendly to cross hands with and is willing to show what he does. If you are in that area and want to meet with him for a friendly deal, I'd be happy to arrange it.

[SevenStar]

Another benefit a lot of people don't talk about is that when you hold, you learn to track punches. After a while, they just don't seem as fast. You also learn where the punch is coming from so that helps with your defense immensely. The cool thing is, you don't even have to focus on it. It just happens!


yeah, I stress this with my new guys. they tend to just hold the mitts there and wander off in space. I make them focus on watching their partner's movements. I also have them move around eachother, and the padholders keep the striking surface hidden until they want their partner to strike. This gets them used to movement while striking and trains the reaction time of the puncher.

[Knifefighter]

Not that he claims to be "unthrowable", he'd probably agree that what makes you hard to throw from one direction at one moment makes you an easy target from a slightly different angle, but there's a guy in the San Diego area by the name of Michael Reyes, a cma internalist who trained in a variety of other styles, who is friendly to cross hands with and is willing to show what he does. If you are in that area and want to meet with him for a friendly deal, I'd be happy to arrange it.

Not what I'm looking for at all.
I've seen plenty of people who can be taken down or thrown.
I'm looking to see a demonstration from one of Fu Pow's "unthrowable" guys.
He said he could set people up with one of these guys and I'm interested.

[KC Elbows]

Not what I'm looking for at all.
I've seen plenty of people who can be taken down or thrown.
I'm looking to see a demonstration from one of Fu Pow's "unthrowable" guys.
He said he could set people up with one of these guys and I'm interested.

I was posting that more if you wanted to see someone who can fight functionally with ima and explain their approach in a real manner.

The obvious problem with the idea of the unthrowable master of an art with a substantial throwing component, like tai chi, is that if two such masters come in contact, a black hole will form, killing us all. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[mantis053]

I think that there are alot of schools out there that have become to commercial over the years. There alot of schools that are interested in only making money and not really teaching students how to defend them selves. The mma has xposed those schools what they are. Because of schools like that. All the other schools are getting a bad rap a long with them. We say that the style is no good when we should be looking at the school and teacher indivisually. Take Chuck Linndell for an example. He is a striker and he is the champ. Most of his fights were won knocking his oppistion out. Does it mean that another style of fighting isn't good. No!!! It just means that he has a good teacher at good school and it also depends on the person.
As far as mma as an art no because mma represents all the diiferents arts in the world. The mma gave dirrerent arts a place to compete against each other. That's why it is called mixed martial arts. If you wanted to condsider the schools that have mixed different arts together to make one then I would say yes. The mma has made a big impact on the martial arts world. Because ultimatelly in the end a martial arts school must make sure that there students can handle the burden of the real thing and is able to defend them selves in a fight. Well all of you have good afternoon.
SIGNNING OFF NOBBY