"Taoist Tai Chi"

[[Censored]]

Does anyone here have personal experience with the "Taoist Tai Chi" organization? What did you think of them?

[Prairie]

My only experience with this organization is from a brief conversation with one of their local members a couple of years ago. I asked if their club practiced "push hands." The answer was no.

My experience goes no further than this short exchange.

[Chris McKinley]

No, but Taoist Taiji is as redundant as saying Jewish Passover. Taiji simply IS Taoist by definition.

[Daniel Madar]

Plenty of styles focus on chi development and are not considered implicitly daoist. Muslim Hsing-i for example...

Merciless is Mercy.

[joedoe]

But isn't the Tai Chi a Taoist concept? :)

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[MaFuYee]

IMO tai chi is not taoist.

if i were you, i'd run for the hills; away from the silk pajamas, and the creepy new age music of 'taoist tai chi'.

If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming
and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a
coward. - Jack Handey

[batesy]

I trained for one night with a taoist tai chi school in Toronto last summer. The most noticeable difference I could discern was that there was an emphasis upon stretching out the spine in almost every posture. I understand that they also practice bagua but unfortunately I did not see it. I probably have the address somewhere if it would be of any use.
cheers

[JerryLove]

My expereince with the local "Daoist Taiji Society" is that they were very nice people with a very narrow understanding of the art.

[Nutt'nhunny]

Tai Chi is inseperable from daoism.

It is daoism in action. What is it based on? E=MC2? NO that makes the nuke. The friggin yin yang symbolw was invented by a guy that studied an early form of tai chi. It was two fish.

[[Censored]]

Please, you do not need to tell me that the name is redundant! I only want to know about their skills, of lack of skills.

[Rockwood]

Go to Taiwan where you can see Taoism in action.

Bratty kids following mom around the temple burning insence at the altars, putting fruit on the altar, lighting candles, bowing, saying prayers.

WTF does martial arts have to do with Taoism?

ITs like saying nuclear weapons are Christianity/Judaism in action because they were invented by Christians and Jews.

-JessÑ

[brassmonkey]

"Ts like saying nuclear weapons are Christianity/Judaism in action because they"
Maybe if we had a martial art that focused on the trinity concept, holy spirit to develop martial skills we could say it was a Catholic Martial Art.

[Eight Diagram Boxer]

What martial arts do you knwo of that originated in Catholic monk's monastaries? I haven't heard of any, but if they did, then Christianity would have something to do with martial arts. There are people on here better qualified to talk about this, but there are martial arts developed by taoists.

Knowing others is wisdom, Knowing the self is enlightenment- Lao Tzu

[Rockwood]

Whatever religion/ beief system you have informs everything that you do. Every aspect of your life is influenced by your spirituality/philosophy.
Therefore, its fair to say that martial arts, cooking, ping pong, all are influenced by ones religion.

To say that tai chi, a martial art, is Taoism in action is going too far. What does martial arts have to do with singing prayers and burning incense?

One does not use the I Ching or Tao Te Ching to develop martial arts skill. That is absurd. You practice power development drills, body training, two man sparring, weapons. Not reading books.

Meditation may play a role, but that is seperate from martial training, as meditation is just as applicable to model car building skill or painting skill.

Worshiping the trinity or the 8 immortals may influence your practice, but they have nothing to do with martial skill per se. It might help, it might not, but it is not intrisic to the practice. An atheist can kick your ass as easily (or not) as a bishop.

As far as monks developing martial arts....

Martial arts are for kiling people. Religiuos people are ususally against that kind of thing. Its unlikely to be the main focus of development at a monastary or church. Monks have had to defend themselves just like the next guy, but historians have found it impossible to truly prove that monks, Buddhist or Taoist, developed any of this stuff. They may have been part of the overall development, but certainly not originators. If anything, Chinese Medical doctors have had more influence on CMA than any religious figures.

Taijiquan- Chen villiage boxing taught to the imperial court by bad ass streetfighter Yang Lu Chan. He may have been a Taoist, but he werent no saint.

Xingyiquan- military martial art taught to soldiers and caravan guards. Not priests.

Baguazhang- Circle walking practices may be based on religious worship done by Taoists, but all fighting techniques adapted from previous martial arts. Developed in the mid-late 1800's in Beijing, not in monastary.

Please, no offense, I am certinly open to other ideas, this is just what I have heard.

-Jess

[MaFuYee]

tsown yu jiu - the art of throwing rocks with deadly accuracy. - when accuracy is poor, large quantities suffice.

me fo lunch - the art of fighting lions

yu all wet - the art of walking on water to evade your enemies. - just make sure u and the big guy are on good terms, or he might have you swallowed by a big fish.

bern yo snit - the art of imploring your deity to rain down fire and brimstone on your enemies. - also handy for lighting campfires when it's damp out.

Only in America do we have drive up ATM's with braile on them.

[mantis108]

No wonder bullfighting events like the UFC and NHB are always sold out. Let's burn all the classics (well... books for that matter). Win as a dumb brute is better than being a smarter fighter. Aman!

Ma,

Don't forget the most powerful of all - walk 7 times around the walls and keep praising the Big Guy. That is the most secrat of all whatchamccaller art. Remember now it is 7 and 7 it is! No more and no less! It is not the number 6 nor is it the number 5. It is the number 7!!!!!!! Number 7 it shall do His WONDER.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[PingAnTu]

When I was in Seattle last month on business, I talked to by Uncle-in-law who is a Taiji Teacher. He told me that (supposedly) the greatest remaining WuDang martial artist who got all the goodies is coming to Seattle this summer. This is Daoist Taiji and Bagua. He told me that this is different than the popular styles of these arts. He said they all originally came from WuDang mountian but were "corrupted". I don't know how good this guys skill is but it would be worth checking out. If anyone is interested, I can post the location and dates and names when I find them out. I don't know, but if you don't speak chinese you might have to watch and learn.

Also, he said the main difference is that in Wudang taiji etc... you can't see the Jing until it's too late. Who knows?

"When I fought the foreign boxer in Kyoto, I jumped up and punched him in the face. This is effective against people who are taller than you." -- Motobu Choki

[brassmonkey]

"One does not use the I Ching or Tao Te Ching to develop martial arts skill."
Would you be suprised if I could link alot of passages from the Tao Te Ching to the Classics? I read a book somewhere that did just this. I might have read it in 1 of Douglas Wile's books and myself was suprised but only read it once and havent referred to it since because I myself at the time believed it to be more academic comparison but perhaps a study of the both would yield some results with hard work.

[remo]

Censored,

Yes, I've been studying taoist tai chi for a while, what would you like to know?

"We forge our bodies in
the fire of our will." Han
from 'Enter the Dragon'

[JWTAYLOR]

From Rockwood "What does martial arts have to do with singing prayers and burning incense?"

The real question si what does singing prayers and burning incense have to do with Taoism.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[[Censored]]

PingAnTu: I am very interested in the Seattle seminar/demonstration/whatever. Please do post details.

Remo: How long have you done Taoist Tai Chi? What is your lineage? How is your practice different then other Tai Chi schools outside your organization? Does your school teach martial arts or strictly for health? And, what's with the name?

[walkthecircle]

ANYone claiming to have the ONLY real Pa kua is full of it.

If i grew a LONG white beard and wore some silk PJs and said i was from Wudong...think I could draw a crowd? haha

come on now. The chinese destroyed all that...what that guy probably has is flexi sword wushu style.

funny how we're all SEEKING so bad for that ONE answer that matches the image in our heads.

He has nothing more to say than many of the great masters from the sacred land of the good ol' USA.

[walkthecircle]

Best master you should seek is YOURSELF!

Value your sifu...if they teach a complete system (KEY element)...AND

Practice practice practice....

Wudong? Is right there in your training hall.

Shaolin temple? When ever you wake up at 5am to do your stance work.

Chen village? Right there where your pushing it beyond the burn and GIVING UP a night on the town for night of single whip...and scooping moon.

difference between you and your teacher? Many years of practice and experience. AND TASTING THE BITTER.

[remo]

Censored,

I have been balancing my study of martial arts with taoist tai chi for about five years.

My instructor has studied under Moy Lin-shin (the founder of this version)

The practice and version are one in the same, mainly for health benefits.

And, as for the name, I'll copy a small portion from the introduction of the book "The Art of Taoist Tai Chi":

"Master Moy Lin-shin, a Taoist monk, dedicated his life to the Taoist art of Tai Chi after experiencing firsthand its healing power. He had been quite ill as a youth, but was gradually restored to health through his study of Tai Chi, Taoist meditation, Lok Hup Ba Fa, and other internal arts. Combining his extensive knowledge of the Taoist classics with training he received from respected teachers in China and Hong Kong, Master Moy developed a unique form of Tai Chi that he called Taoist Tai Chi in recognition of its strong roots in the Taoist tradition."

An interesting side note to all of this, is the instructors of taoist tai chi collect a small fee for the class, but this goes to the rental of the hall or community center, and some for administration; basically, non-profit.

WARNING: 'Testimonial' :rolleyes: (you may skip this if you wish)
After years of martial arts training (hard stuff), you can imagine I wasn't in the greatest condition; bad knees, bad back, etc...
But, after a few years of taoist tai chi, I CAN SEE! :D
Also, this practice gently forces your body back into alignment and a lot of my collected ailments have left me. :)
This style is very popular with the older crowd.(as in retired like your grandparents :cool: )

For what it's worth.

[solur]

Taoism is not about burning incense and making fruit offerings, it is simply a philosohpy and Taiji is based on part of this philosophy. The religious sect of Taoism is far from its original inetent as just a way in seeing things. Real taoism is far from religion.

[[Censored]]

I would like a clarification. Is the practice in your school mainly for health or entirely for health? Do you do any martial practice whatsoever? And if so, how would you evaluate their martial ability, based on your years in harder styles?

Also, how much class time is spent preaching Taoism, and how much is spent practicing Tai Chi?

[remo]

Censored,

The form and basics are of course tai chi moves and postures; but, performed for health benefits.
I am definitely the youngest in a class of mainly retired ladies and gents wanting to keep their movement and energy at a high level. Which may give you an idea of the direction this style and class takes.
Only from my other training do I appreciate the balance and great footwork. But, to answer your question as to martial applications, it is not taught for that reason. Nor are there many martial type exercises (at this time, I've only been at this taoist tai chi for five years).
As a bit of interest, you can't tell how old my instructor is, he moves as well as I do and I have to be half his age. (makes me think there's something to those wild stories of old kung-fu masters) ;)
All of our time is spent on tai chi, aside from some quiet meditation and relaxation after a couple of sets. There has never been any teaching of taoism in all the time I've been there.(maybe that's only for the inner circle :D )

[[Censored]]

Will I be fooled by any old Chinese guy with a beard and silk PJs? Not likely. If he's a phony, then I can always "request a refund" or a "private lesson", right? ;) It sounds as if you have never been to Shaolin, Wudang, or Chen village, or you would not be so arrogant and dismissive. Then again, maybe you are better then every martial artist in China.

[Gluteus Maximus]

Hi Remo, Censored et al,

I'm a Wing Chun man who's dabbled In Tai Chi a bit, and a couple of years ago, my housemate at the time had a friend visit here from his home town who was a Taoist Tai Chi instructor there.

The form had the same movements (performed slightly differently though), in the same order as the Yang long form I learnt. However, while watching him do the form over a period of two weeks every morning, apart from the stretching that you mentioned, one particularly notable difference was the way that he did a 45 degree pivot of the foot, like at the end of single whip for example. Instead of pivotting on the heel as I learnt, he pivotted on the toes. It seemed to me that a lot of the power would go out of the movement doing it this way, as energy would be travelling backwards out of the rear foot instead of up through the leg and forwards, where I would have thought you'd want it for martial application.

I asked him whether he did push hands and he said yes, but most of the people he taught were quite infirm, in old people's homes, etc, so he only did it with select students who were interested in that side of it and who were fit enough. I showed him some Wing Chun sticky hands and he showed me some push hands based on the 'peng' movement.

Like Remo though, I was very impressed with his flexibiltiy, ease of movement and apparent energy and health. For a guy in his mid-60s, he moved like someone in their 30s.

Max

"The force can be envisaged as cone-shaped". Tsui Seung Tin