Shaolin Kung Fu vs Kung Fu San Sooo

[Spidey Rules]

Can someone tell me the differences between these two types of martial arts? Which you prefer and why? I would like to enroll my son into one of these styles, but I don't know which one would be better for him (he's five). Before I take him in for a few free trial lessons, I'd like to know a little more about them. Thanks!

[B-Rad]

You could probably find some San Soo threads by searching the forum archives... only seen one terrible vid of san soo online, hopefully it isn't representative of the group as a whole. Basically, it was a San Soo instructer who made the usual claims of being too deadly for the ring, eye gouges and maiming techniques could beat groundfighting, etc. Issued an open challenge to prove these ideas correct and got his arm broken by a mixed martial art fighter named John Marsh. Avoid any place that relies mostly on techniques that are too deadly to test.

Shaolin Kungfu is an extremely generic term that doesn't specifically refer to any one style. Who's the Shaolin teacher? Do you know anything about his background?

[Spidey Rules]

Yeah I heard that San Sooo isn't performed in tournaments because someone could get hurt. So that brings me to this question, "How can I know that what my son will be learning will be effective?" At least in tournaments I could measure his ability with someone else his size.

I don't know much about either instructors yet. Those are two places close to home. Now there is another place that teaches Shotokan karate. That's another style I'm also curious about. I've looked these all up online, but of course each one tells me why they think they are the best. I was hoping to get some different opinions from people that know more about them that may not be biased to one form or another.

[Judge Pen]

Here's my thought on "too deadly" techniques. Teaching eye gouges etc is all well and good, but if your son lacks the timing, footwork and bridging skills to hit someone that is actively resisting them, then he's not going to be able to poke them in the eyes (which are smaller targets).

[B-Rad]

Yup. Basically, the problem with "deadly" techniques is that they're untestable. If you have a strong base in punching, kicking, throwing, and grappling (the four main types of technique that should be found in any CMA) the "deadly" techniques/dirty tricks can be added on top of the core skills fairly easily. Gouging someone's eye is an easy way to cause someone pain, and you don't really need to pay a teacher coach to teach you that. If you can create and opening to punch someone in the eye, then it shouldn't be a big deal for you to stick out a finger and stick it in there. If you can control someone well enough to pick them up and throw them on their back like in San Da fights, you should be able to drop someone on their head. If you're skilled enough to submit someone, you can do all kinds of nasty things to them if you want.

[B-Rad]

While not participating in sport fighting is perfectly fine (not everyone is into that sort of thing), the moment someone claims to be too deadly or that they'd hurt too many people, it's just bull$hit, and a sign that they're just not qualified to be teaching martial arts for self defence or fighting. Regardless of style, if any of the instructers have that attitude about sparring, I'd avoid them like the plague even if there's no other options.

[Royal Dragon]

Deadly techniques are not untestable, you just have to be in a war zone and out of ammo.....:D

[Lokhopkuen]

San Soo is a recently made up system of martial art. Because it has no set forms the essences of the art vary from instructor to instructor. I have known a few San Soo people who were actually decent fighters but they are rare. I find there are many people in this country being misled by shrewd business people strong on promotional skills and short on martial technique. They fill the hours of their class with conditioning routines to exhaust the student giving them a sense of accomplishment passing on no martial skills. There are many time tested styles of traditional martial art Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc. but every once in a while some smart guy comes along creating his own style, reinventing the whole of martial art in his own image. Sad so sad.

[ZhuiQuan]

It was my understanding that San Soo (or San Shou) is "full contact", as in fighting.

[TenTigers]

Before getting led down the "deadly vs effective" path of no return, you need to clarify which "Shaolin" school you were looking at. Everybody and their uncle has "Shaolin" on their school name, from Shaolin Kempo, to Shaolin Self-Defense Centers, to Shaolin-Do, to people who lay claim to real Shaolin Monks-which by the way haven't actually existed in any capacity for many, many years, unles you count wu-shu performers with shaved heads and robes as Monks, but that in intself is another debate. (howz THAT for a run-on sentence? I should go back to school.):(
Is the Shotokan school a member of the JKA-Japanese Karate Assoc.? If so, there is a good chance that it will be a better choice than the previously mentioned schools.
Once we can establish the legitimacy of the schools, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

[Lokhopkuen]

History

The following history on the art of San Soo was written in May 1993 by the Jimmy H. Woo Association based on information provided by Grand Master Woo. Although there have been some speculations in connecting this art to another lineage, there is no documentation to support these claims. The Masters who studied with Lo Si Fu for many years will continue to support the family lineage provided by Grand Master Woo

History of Kung Fu San Soo

SAN SOO as taught by Grandmaster Jimmy H. Woo, had its origins in the very basics of Chinese feudal life two thousands years ago. For many hundreds of years, China was divided and sub-divided into various warring factions, and each produced many types of fighting styles. Chinese systematized warfare predates the arrival of the Buddhist monk Bodhidharma, thought to be the founder of Shaolin Ch’uan, by several hundred years c.200 B.C.

Exactly how and when these fighting tactics were begun in the Kwan-Yin (goddess of mercy) monastery in the village of Pon Hong, Guangdong Province of Southern China is still unclear, but is in the process of being researched. The main reason the martial arts were perfected by this group of monks was to protect themselves from bandits and outlaws as the monks returned with supplies and donations from the nearby villages.

One of these young monks, named Leoung Kick, an orphan who lived in the monastery since the age of 10, (Jimmy H. Woo’s Great, Great, Great Grandfather) decided to leave the monastery when he was approximately 30 years old. He took with him two of the Buddhist training texts which probably date back to the 1500’s during the Ming Dynasty. These books have remained within the Chin family, where the techniques and forms were taught and passed down from generation to generation. All of the techniques and forms taught to and by Jimmy came from these two manuals.

Young Chin Siu Dek (Jimmy’s real name) was taught by his Great Uncle Chin Siu Hung who was nicknamed Chin Neow Gee, which means “Crazy Devil.” Hung was an extremely large man, 6’5” tall and weighing well over 320 pounds. Following in his grandfather’s footsteps, Hung became a well-known fighter, teaching in his own SAN SOO school. He was overlord for the entire province, which at that time, late 1800’s and until 1941 was about the size of Orange County, CA. He had complete control over nearly every aspect of the lives of the people in the area. No one started a business, moved or made any other major decisions without consulting Hung.

From the age of five on Dek was to be his Great Uncle’s prize student. He learned extremely fast and loved the contact and grueling workouts on hard floors. In his teens, Dek became a traveling teacher of Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung; the official name of the martial art perfected hundreds of years before in the monastery very near his small village. When anyone in the province needed someone to come and settle a grievance, Dek was the enforcer. When village elders decided it was time for the young men to learn to defend themselves, Dek would be sent to live there for months at a time to teach them.

In 1935, at the age of 21, Chin Siu Dek left mainland China under the passport name Jimmy H. Woo and sailed for the United States. During the early years in this country, Jimmy lived in Chinatown, Los Angeles.

Chin Siu Hung was 73 years old when the Japanese invaded mainland China and took over his beloved province. In 1942 he was forced, against his will, to answer a challenge to fight to the death the regimental karate champion of the Japanese army. This was to be a public display of the power of the Japanese conquerors in front of the poor villagers of the surrounding area. Under the threat of death to his people if he did not comply, Hung fought and defeated the Japanese champion. In fact he killed the karate warrior in less than 20 seconds. He and most of his students were immediately killed by machine gun fire. This basically ended SAN SOO in mainland China.

It was extremely fortunate that Jimmy had left mainland China when he did, for the Japanese would have awarded him with the same fate as his Great Uncle and the other SAN SOO practitioners rather than allow a possible resistance corps to remain.

Jimmy carried the art to America and kept it alive while many of the other early Chinese fighting systems were destroyed by the Japanese. Mao Tse Tung later eradicated many of the martial arts styles, training books and monasteries when the communist Chinese took over power from the Japanese at the end of W.W.II.

Jimmy traveled several weeks by steamship to the United States, landing in the Port of Los Angeles, California. Jimmy worked many varied odd jobs as he became acclimated to his new home in Los Angeles’ Chinatown District. His love for fresh fruit and vegetables stemmed from his long hours as a produce manager in a market, but his first love was teaching SAN SOO. He began teaching privately to close relatives and friends; later he was the instructor for several years at the Sing Kang “cousins club” a social/recreational organization. He also acted as security/police for the residents and business owners in the area and sometimes as a bodyguard, the only unarmed one in the area.

In December of 1962 Jimmy officially held the grand opening for his martial arts studio in the Midway Shopping Center in El Monte, CA. In the early years he called it “Karate-Kung Fu” because no one knew what kung fu was at that time. In January of 1984, following his retirement from daily instruction, Jimmy H. Woo became Grand Master (Lau Sifu) when his Grandson, James P. King, earned his black belt. Jimmy H. Woo continued teaching his instructors class two Saturdays a month until 1991, totaling nearly 46 years of kung fu teaching in America.

Destiny brought Chin Siu Dek to America as Jimmy H. Woo to preserve the ancient art of Choi (Ga Kuhn How) Lee (Ga Ma) Ho (Ga) Fut hung (Ga), SAN SOO. In his memory and that of thousands of instructors and monks before him, the art must be preserved.

[atlas1212]

I've read that San Soo history before. And while what I've seen of San Soo in real life has been pretty cool, I think the history of it is BS.

[kungfugorilla]

For the record - the man who fought John Marsh did NOT know Kung Fu San Soo and is on no way AT ALL a representative of San Soo.

My personal belief, San Soo is a superior fighting art to Shaolin. I have a lot of respect for most martial arts, but that does not mean they are all equal in all areas.

But at the end of the day, you fight the man, not the art. The man John Marsh tangled with that day was NOT a San Soo practitioner, period.

-KFG