Taijiquan question

[abc]

Hi,

I wanna ask some question about Taijiquan.

I would like to learn some basic Taijiquan style myself is it possible? My questions are


Where is the best site to learn taijiquan
Can I mix all style of taijiquan together eg. Yang & Chen?
If Taijiquan step do wrong, will it hurt us as in internal?
If I feel that my hand is very dry when ending practising, what is it mean?
What are the quick benefits for Taijiquan u can list?


Hope someone can give some advice for me on self learning. Thanks in advanced :)

[GLW]

Learning Taijiquan from a web site is not something I would recommend...nor would I recommend any method other than having classes with a real in person teacher.

Basics are VERY important. A poor foundation and no matter what you do, it will not be good.

A good teacher is also important. Not every asian person knows what they are doing nor can every asian teacher teach - whether they know what they are doing or not. However, there IS a prejudice towards learning from an asian person. So...you have to know what to look for...and the Catch 22 is that as a beginner (whether this be to all CMA or simply to Taijiquan), you will not know enough to KNOW what to look for.

Basics - bad basics CAN and will hurt you. Without even touching on the esoteric or metaphysical of Qi and such, I can tell you that I can show you the basic stances and how to move in them. I can ignore an error or even show you with your foot turned just 2 inches in the wrong way. Then, let you go off and practice for a year. After a year of this "Bad" practice, you will be well on your way to needing knee surgery. Similarly, I can show you a body alignment and get it just 3 or 4 inches off...and after long practices, you WILL have low back pain where you never had it before.

So...proceed at your own risk...and there ARE some.

[abc]

Learning Taijiquan from a web site is not something I would recommend...nor would I recommend any method other than having classes with a real in person teacher.

Basics are VERY important. A poor foundation and no matter what you do, it will not be good.

A good teacher is also important. Not every asian person knows what they are doing nor can every asian teacher teach - whether they know what they are doing or not. However, there IS a prejudice towards learning from an asian person. So...you have to know what to look for...and the Catch 22 is that as a beginner (whether this be to all CMA or simply to Taijiquan), you will not know enough to KNOW what to look for.

Basics - bad basics CAN and will hurt you. Without even touching on the esoteric or metaphysical of Qi and such, I can tell you that I can show you the basic stances and how to move in them. I can ignore an error or even show you with your foot turned just 2 inches in the wrong way. Then, let you go off and practice for a year. After a year of this "Bad" practice, you will be well on your way to needing knee surgery. Similarly, I can show you a body alignment and get it just 3 or 4 inches off...and after long practices, you WILL have low back pain where you never had it before.

So...proceed at your own risk...and there ARE some.

oh.. thats sounds bad, but anyway thanks for your reply :)

[abc]

so overrall, which style u guys recommend, I know there are 3 famous 1, Yang, Chen and Wu right?

If I have master either 1 of them, can I master other kinds too and if possible can I mix some of the move too? Btw, is there any website to see what stance name are for specfic movement, cos I would interested to learn the theory first.

[dleungnyc]

Style nowaday really doesn't matter much except for the ****ing contest on internet boards. :)

Seriously though, just find the best teacher possible regardless of style.

[pops]

Hi everybody .I am glad to be back home.Just a warning not to bother going to wudang acadamy it is run down ,no running water, no working toilets, mold on the roof ,roof caving in,no master to greet us to give a demonstation and all of ther masters have left for other schools or to teach in USA.Wang TAO is no director of the acadamy but a travel agent named DR.Hue.It took me and my girlfriend about 5 minutes to decide to leave and go to the hotel next door.So what do we do know ? Sitting on the roadside to catch a ride down to the town site we meet a chinese tour guide that speaks english.so we explain our situation and he mentions he is the director of the eight immortal retreat .so we were very skeptic but had nothing to lose .Then we caught a ride to the retreat .When we got there they grabbed our bags and the master was right there to greet us.Training was awsome and the real thing(there was no cheating or lying or half truths which is very common in china)I learned the 18 formula taji ,Wudang short staff from the longman sect and ba da jin qigong from the pure yang sect,My girl friend learned the 32 sword.Taji and qigong.Our teacher was master lou Feng and master Wong.Master Feng is Wongs best diciple,.Master Wong is linage holder of the pure yang sect and the longman sect.The WE trained 5 hours a day sometimes also after supper.I learned the application of the forms and the movements very well.Traing somedays were hard but expected..The masters are awsome very kind and honest.They did not speakmuch english communicated the movement and application very well with much patients no stick for us.The acadamy is on the mountain still and I am glad it was not in the town so loud and smelly.On the mountain it is quite and clean.In china it is common to see men and women spit spit spit all over ,blow there nose on the street with there finger so snot flys everywhere and yes burping and ****ing is ok at all times what a culture.just be careful where you step.Any questions e mail me or post a reply.China as a whole needs lots of refining but had a great trip .pops

[pops]

Hi everybody .I am glad to be back home.Just a warning not to bother going to wudang acadamy it is run down ,no running water, no working toilets, mold on the roof ,roof caving in,no master to greet us to give a demonstation and all of ther masters have left for other schools or to teach in USA.Wang TAO is no director of the acadamy but a travel agent named DR.Hue.It took me and my girlfriend about 5 minutes to decide to leave and go to the hotel next door.So what do we do know ? Sitting on the roadside to catch a ride down to the town site we meet a chinese tour guide that speaks english.so we explain our situation and he mentions he is the director of the eight immortal retreat .so we were very skeptic but had nothing to lose .Then we caught a ride to the retreat .When we got there they grabbed our bags and the master was right there to greet us.Training was awsome and the real thing(there was no cheating or lying or half truths which is very common in china)I learned the 18 formula taji ,Wudang short staff from the longman sect and ba da jin qigong from the pure yang sect,My girl friend learned the 32 sword.Taji and qigong.Our teacher was master lou Feng and master Wong.Master Feng is Wongs best diciple,.Master Wong is linage holder of the pure yang sect and the longman sect.The WE trained 5 hours a day sometimes also after supper.I learned the application of the forms and the movements very well.Traing somedays were hard but expected..The masters are awsome very kind and honest.They did not speakmuch english communicated the movement and application very well with much patients no stick for us.The acadamy is on the mountain still and I am glad it was not in the town so loud and smelly.On the mountain it is quite and clean.In china it is common to see men and women spit spit spit all over ,blow there nose on the street with there finger so snot flys everywhere and yes burping and ****ing is ok at all times what a culture.just be careful where you step.Any questions e mail me or post a reply.China as a whole needs lots of refining but had a great trip .pops

[scholar]

As mentioned above, people argue ad nauseum which style is the best, but my experience is that there was reliably good Taijiquan available from the 5 Taijiquan families. So, you are going to find good stuff from Chen, Yang Wu, etc. if, and only if, you get a good teacher. Just because it is claimed to be one of those classical styles doesn't mean it is any good.

To tell if a teacher is good, you have to know what to look for.

To help with that, here is a list of Google videos with players from the 5 major styles.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5413288383140638886

There a several crappy ones in the list at right of the page that will show up. People will argue with my summary, but what the hell. The following ones I recommend to get an idea of what classical Taijiquan, the way it was taught 100 years ago, looks like:

1. Ma Yueliang doing a Wu style fast form. This is an older version of the form, dating back to Wu Jianquan's younger days, before he modified it around 1918-1920 and then his children modified it yet more 1940-1960. Still, very interesting, good small fa jing.

2. Chen Shrtong (I intentionally misspelled it because of an unfortunate letter combination). Not government wushu style at all. Good Chen family style. Smooth, precise, not too low. Zhaobao Chen style is also interesting if you can find a clip.

3. Hao Shaoru was from the famous Hao family of Wu Yuxiang, Li Yiyu, Hao Weizhen lineage. Too bad the vid is so spotty, they work with billowing/resonance in their power generations.

4. Dong Yingjie was a famous student of Yang Chengfu who also studied with Yang Shaohou and Wu Jianquan. Classical Yang "Large Frame" style.

5. Fu Zhongwen was also a disciple of Yang Chengfu. A little better quality video, but his style is very similar, naturally, to Dong's.

6. Sun Jianyun was Sun Lutang's daughter. Sun Lutang learned from Hao Weizhen, but also worked a long time with the Yang brothers and Wu Jianquan. There are similarities with all those styles in the Sun style. It is small like Wu style, with the resonance of Wu/Hao and a lot of Bagua/Xingyi stuff allegedly hidden in the mix. My teachers told me Wu Jianquan and Yang Shaohou were very impressed with Sun and incorporated a lot of his stuff into their personal forms.

[abc]

oh, thanks for the reply.

Btw, Can Taijiquan be practice before and after heavy workup like going gym to carry weights etc. ? What is the best time to practice it?

Is there any website is good for starting some theory and basic understanding of taijiquan, like some video to say that the movie is eg. call White Crane Spreads its Wings and with chinese too?

Anyone learn mix other martial art with Taijiquan, if yes, is it all kind is recommended or what kind of martial art should be stay out if you learn Taijiquan? Taijiquan also counted as 1 Qi Gong right?

If I want to start, I should learn the basic application, follow by weapon then some fighting move then still got anything to learn?

Sorry for so many question, but thanks in advanced :)

[scholar]

Well, others have different opinions on this, but I would recommend not to do conventional weight training with Taijiquan. However, if you are seriously weight training already, I don't recommend stopping right away. If you end up liking the Taijiquan better, then you will gradually replace the weight training with Taijiquan training. If your training is complete, the push hands and weapons (especially the spear!) you work with will eventually fill that need. Others do weight training with Taijiquan, but it seems counter productive. Taijiquan is designed to stretch and loosen the muscles, weight training is designed to shorten and thicken, even tense, the muscles. They cancel each other out.

As for other styles, it all hinges on your teacher. If the teacher really knows their stuff, you will be too busy to work on other arts. The overwhelming majority of "Taijiquan" teachers nowadays are part timers when it comes to Taijiquan. They mix and match what they teach and think that is fine. More power to them! Mine is but one voice in a vast sea of opinion.

As for doing different styles of Taijiquan at the same time, my advice is that it is kind of redundant and will (again, IMO) in the long run waste your time. My teachers used to say, "There is only one Taijiquan, and at least 5 good ways to get there" referring to the 5 family styles. There may be other good ways too, but the 5 families have a long track record of effectiveness. Why reinvent the wheel? As far as the basics go, the families are all relatively similar in their core values. If you get beyond the basics, actually learn them (only 1 out of 100 ever do), then you can more realistically assess which art suits you best for personal expression.

[scholar]

Some styles have qigong, some don't. If your Taijiquan is good, even if you just do the forms and pushing hands it has many if not all of the benefits of qigong.

The important thing to get the full benefit is to find a school that trains martially, the whole 9 yards. Sparring, wrestling, fencing, joint locks, throws, pressure points, etc. Without the teacher being a proficient martial artist, you won't be challenged sufficiently, and the training may even cause chronic health problems over the years because a non-martial teacher doesn't understand the training well enough to make sure it is safe for you.

Here is a site with an overview and links to lots of other sites and styles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%27ai_Chi_Ch%27uan

[abc]

Thanks scholar :) Your reply is useful to me :) So I can say almost all 5 styles of Taijiquan is about the same right, If I would like to learn basic style without weapon all that, how long will it take for an average person?

As I have do research on courses, it is count by eg. 30 lesson, is all 30 lesson teach basic application or got include weapon all that?

[scholar]

Yes, all of the forms are good, if you have a good teacher. Good Chen style is good Taijiquan, good Yang style is good Taijiquan, etc. The trick is finding a good teacher, not so easy. It is better if you live in a big city, but the downside is that there is a lot of not so good teaching in a big city, too.

Different schools have different time frames for their syllabus. Different people learn at different speeds. Group classes take longer than individual instruction for most people. Some schools stretch out learning the form over the course of several years, I learned my Wu style 108 in 7 weeks. That isn't to say that I was any good at it, though... :D

Learning weapons wasn't traditionally done until years and years into the training. Now, they are usually introduced much earlier, assuming the teacher knows any weapon work. Traditionally, it was spear first, but most classrooms nowadays are too small to show a lot of people spear forms. Sabre forms are next, followed by sword (jian or gim). Then exotic weapons can be trained, but spear, sabre & sword work contains almost all the techniques you would use for other weapons anyway, with slight modifications.

So, just learning the forms, weapons and pushing hands isn't the same as knowing Taijiquan. There is a conditioning period that has to be undertaken in order for your body to get used to the demands of the training. Younger people can take more punishment and technically can condition in a shorter time, but older people usually take things with more patience, and don't get injured as much. It all evens out, IME. Then there is the issue of understanding what is required, this is the hardest thing. The classics of the various families all speak of people who train Taijiquan for decades and never figure it out. There is no guarantee that a given person will ever be able to "use 4 ounces to deflect 1000 pounds" no matter how long they train. The saying is: "Some people have something else to learn before they can learn Taijiquan".

[abc]

oh ok, thanks for the reply :) Btw, is Flexibility a must for Taijiquan, cos I saw many video that their leg is like very flexible and can lift up very high. What are the recommended stretching method to train for flexibility.

[scholar]

Flexibility is important. It should be loose flexibility, though, not just range of motion. Taijiquan is based on natural ranges of motion, too, so overt stretching beyond the natural range of the joints should be avoided.

The forms themselves should have a complete range of stretching withing them, for every major and minor joint and muscles group in the body. If they don't, something is missing. It is a good question to ask a potential teacher to find out if they know what they are teaching...

[abc]

oh.. my muscle is too tight, scare gonna take long time to train flexibility as I'm not so young anymore. So any stretching method or step is good to train for flexibility without hurting much? I don't think I need to go Yoga for that right, lol :)

[dleungnyc]

Just take your time. I was 40 when I picked up xingyi and tai chi, took me almost 2 months just to loosen up, I still have a LONG way to go, but I am making progress. :p

[abc]

oh ok, thanks for your reply :)

[daoman]

Greetings, here s some info to your questions, hopefully it ll help.

1.Sites should be last resort. Although sites like this one with forums can be helpful. Better off buyin some books. Robert chuckrow, Dr. Yang jwing-ming are some recomendations.
2.First u got to know basics+stances. Then learn a form. Only after completing a form should u learn a new form. Forms were created as tools for us to achieve taiji.Different structures with same results. Learning more styles will compliment ur previous ones+ also deepen u r understandin.
3.Done wrong u can harm u r self externally+internally. So be humble+steadfast+patient. Most of all listen to u r body.
4.Dry + tight palms could be circulation prob. Depends.
5.Practise benifits externally+internally. Basically, health, exercise, cultivation of virtue.

Any questions or comments write me

[abc]

Greetings, here s some info to your questions, hopefully it ll help.

1.Sites should be last resort. Although sites like this one with forums can be helpful. Better off buyin some books. Robert chuckrow, Dr. Yang jwing-ming are some recomendations.
2.First u got to know basics+stances. Then learn a form. Only after completing a form should u learn a new form. Forms were created as tools for us to achieve taiji.Different structures with same results. Learning more styles will compliment ur previous ones+ also deepen u r understandin.
3.Done wrong u can harm u r self externally+internally. So be humble+steadfast+patient. Most of all listen to u r body.
4.Dry + tight palms could be circulation prob. Depends.
5.Practise benifits externally+internally. Basically, health, exercise, cultivation of virtue.

Any questions or comments write me

Thanks for more reply :)

[yenhoi]

http://www.emptyflower.com/

http://www.shenwu.com/

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/ntes.htm

Good place to start anyways.

Use common sense, you can get far.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

www.yogajournal.com

This site has a links section that will also get you far.

:cool:

[abc]

Thanks for all the website :)

[chud]

4. Dong Yingjie was a famous student of Yang Chengfu who also studied with Yang Shaohou and Wu Jianquan. Classical Yang "Large Frame" style.



Scholar: I really like this clip, it's similar to what I study. Thanks for posting the link.

[scholar]

Thanks, I found it by accident a few weeks ago. I was just amazed that there are vids from all the major styles that are impressive as heck. It is rare to find one good clip, but 6?

Dong Yingjie was a close colleague to my teacher's uncle and father before and after 1949, when they all moved to HK. They had good things to say about him.

[chud]

Just a warning not to bother going to wudang acadamy...and all of ther masters have left for other schools or to teach in USA.

Well it seems that the monks from Wudang have come to Austin, Texas. They will be here this week: http://www.healingtaoinstitute.com/wudangdvd.html

[abc]

Btw, 1 more question, does anyone mix Taijiquan with other External Art (Waijia)? Is it recommended? or I should aim to complete all those 3 internal art is better? If yes how will u rank it, taiji first 2nd should be xinyi or 3rd bagua? Thanks :)

[scholar]

Well, IMO it isn't good to mix hard style and soft style. It isn't that there is anything wrong with either one, but they cancel each other out. If you train to be soft and then train to be hard, for example, you reverse the soft conditioning you've just been doing. There is a lot of disagreement on this subject, though, so you'll have to consider other opinions, too.

Bagua or Xingyi aren't better or worse than Taijiquan. It has to do with the skill level of the teacher. A good Bagua teacher will teach you better than a crappy Xingyi or Taiji teacher, a good Taiji teacher..., etc. Generally, you'll find fewer frauds teaching Bagua or Xingyi, though. Taijiquan is rife with people who declare themselves masters but actually have very little to teach, and zero martial ability. You will be able to find dozens of threads to that effect on this discussion board alone...

[abc]

oh ok, thanks for your reply :) Btw, any website is good for downloading taijiquan music?

[charyuop]

Hi abc, sorry, I wanted to answer you earlier but I had to wait for activation.
I like you have to learn Tai Chi online because the closest school is 2 hours away from me.
I found this site which gives free online lessons very detailed. If like me then you are interested you can buy at the same site videos detailed about the form, the applications, understanding the Chi, exercises to improve your body and joints, push hands and much more+books from the same master.

As they told me in another forum there have been talented people in the old China that learnt martial arts only from reading books. I don't expect miracles and I learn all I can just being aware that I give everyday my 100%+.

DON'T underestimate the safety rules tho, like bending your knees inward, bending the back and so on. You could really hurt yourself.
The site is Micheal Gilmans's and he was student of the late sifu Choy Kam-man whose father studied under Yang Chengfu (thus what you will learn is Yang Style, I raccommend the long form coz it is funnier hee hee).
www.gilmanstudio.com

[abc]

Hi, thanks for the first post to me :) That site seems good, thanks alot :)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Internal/External? Yin/Yang.. Balance.. ?

The Yin/Yang relationship is observable within any art and as a balance between the arts.. Understanding the relationships will serve you better than exclusions based on preferences.. The Yin/Yang relationship is not exclusive to Taiji.

Be well..