I hate training with women.

[travelsbyknight]

I purposely put a loaded title up so that people would take notice.

Here's what I really mean.

I used to believe that men and women could both become profficient in the martial arts. MAybe I was naive or too idealistic. Now that a few years have passed I'm starting to see that almost no women have become profficient.

I find it frustrating to train with the women in my school. They inherently have what most men don't, the most important aspect of kung fu...they're soft. They bend instead of break. They redirect instead of staying planted and getting knocked over. They're not over tense like men. Here's the issue. They don't seem to get past this soft aspect of things. You need the soft and the hard but women seem to lack the hard. They bend against force but then they don't hit back like a whip. They just bend and get pushed over.

I'm not sure if I"m explaining this in a way people can understand. I train with this one girl who literally weighs nothing. She's the size of a child...accept she's an adult. I don't feel I get any benefit from training with her. I get benefit from teaching her but not from training her.

Can women be trained the same way as men? If not then how should women be trained in kung fu?

[Royal Dragon]

You need to go spend some time in a women's gymnastics club......

[Chief Fox]

You need to go spend some time in a women's gymnastics club......
That or a strip club. :D

Seriously, over the past 4 years I've trained with several women but only two could give as well as they got. One was very aggressive and had an excellent round house kick. The other was more like you describe. She's very soft, flexible and quick. She's uses all of this to her advantage. When her and I spar, I know that I could rush in and over power her so I try to fight her with more quickness and flexibility. It's almost like she focuses on groin shots. She's an excellent martial artist who really likes to focus on application.

I certaily understand where you're coming from though. Most women simply aren't as aggresive as men. I would suggest focusing on a different part of your game when training women.

[Vajramusti]

Depends on what you have been exposed to. Among my elder brothers and sisters was Nancy Macdonald. She taught well and packed quite a punch. Among my younger sisters is Carina who doesnt just deflect.
Of course anyone-men and women will analyse their strengths and weaknesses.
Carina BTW makes very good wing chun dummies, wooden bot jam do-s, taichi wooden swords and other martial equipment. Her equipment site is at
www.little-raven.com

joy chaudhuri

[joedoe]

Some people get it, some people don't. It doesn't matter if they are male or female. You gotta learn how to adapt the style you are learning to yourself, and then to the situation. That applies regardless of your sex.

[Average Joe]

I have trained with many women. The first person that I ever worked out in Wing Chun was a woman we did Pak for 2 hours. All I can say is that not only was my arm killing me where she was hitting me but my hand was also killing me from trying so hard to deliver the same effort that she was giving me. Look at it this way most women are soft and in the real world they are the most voulnerible to attack rape mugging etc. So if you are working with a woman it should be that much more important to be a good bad guy. The guy on the street won't be nice. If the women you work with are soft it is most likely because the men they train with are treating them that way.

[BoulderDawg]

The truth is that most women don't have the upper body strenght of a man therefore they have to make up in other areas such as speed and agility.

Because of the strenght I think men advance sooner than women but they can catch up.

[BM2]

You don't think others may wish that they had a better partner than you? You are supposed to be helping getting your partner better.
My bjj instructor told me that he had no problem having my sons, age 7 and 9, in the adult's class. He puts them across from adults during the conditioning and tells the adults to keep up with the kids, they can not. My boys can do push ups,sit ups, mountain climbers and get up faster than any of the adults. He knows the adults push themselves harder not to be beaten by a little kid. They just don't wear out as any parent knows.
You remind me of a guy that will be fighing in a cage in three months. He reluctanly agreed to roll with me when asked by the instructor. I am much smaller than he and am 45. I gullotined his azz:p

[BoulderDawg]

fighting in a cage???

Now I'm confused. Are we talking about the WWE here!:D

[PlumDragon]

The truth is that most women don't have the upper body strenght of a man therefore they have to make up in other areas such as speed and agility.

Because of the strenght I think men advance sooner than women but they can catch up.
Being a good martial artist isnt about having "upper body strength".

Women seem to have a more natural feeling hand and are great with finesse where many guys seem to think that its all about how much you can bench and forget entirely about whole body connectedness and the importance of structure, not strength.

As a quick case study, I train with one women who routinely whups the guys, stand up and on the ground.

[neilhytholt]

Women's strengths in martial arts are different. They have a lot of lower body strength, great flexibility, usually better balance, and they are great with intricate and flowing movements.

So instead of training them with light weapons and working on their kicking and groundfighting skill, most instructors teach them to fight like a man, which is just stupid.

Basically women have almost no upper body strength, but still have fairly strong legs and good hips, so they have a lower center of gravity, which can work to their advantage if they know how to use it. But most guys don't understand that, and can't teach them how to use it.

Oh, well. :)

[scholar]

You need to go spend some time in a women's gymnastics club......

I would like to spend some time in a women's gymnastics club!!! :D

[neilhytholt]

Anyways, my first sifu's daughter was great at light weapons, so whenever I want to practice light weapons (like Jian), I just find the best woman in the school.

Believe it or not, the women are usually better than guys at that type of stuff. Guys usually try to muscle it and so they're much slower. Not always, of course, but as a generalization.

Edit ... anyways as soon as my daughter finishes up with this animal stuff (she's got the first form down), I'm going to start her on staff (just cause I think that should be taught first). Then, onto the jian and then onto the needles.

That way, alls she has to do to protect herself is carry a nice hair comb or needles in her hair, and she'll be able to fend off rapists.

[The Willow Sword]

You will rarely ever find a martial arts kwoon or dojo that really teaches women well. In fact most of the places i have been to over the years i have seen this lack of real training for women.
The only place that seems to have any credability for teaching women the correct way to defend themselves is the Sun dragon women's martial arts school here in Austin Tx. Every where else seems to take it easy on women. There was a similar thread to this one a while back where i was labelled some sort of sexist because i was pointing out the flaws of how women are trained in this country and how men are physically stronger than women.

Women are attacked very differently from men and they need to be trained for the very serious real world threat of being raped or attacked from behind and such. only a few places really get tough with women in martial arts training and i will bet you that most women who get hit the first time in class, quit that very night and dont come back.

Maybe some of the women here on the forum could chime in with their experiences and maybe they could be HONEST in telling us if they truly feel like what they are learning is going to save their life should they be threatened or sexually assaulted.
i mean really is that kata going to thwart some guy who is hell bent on getting your pants down and brutally raping you as you tried to open your car door?
How about that mantis form or that choy li fut routine or whatever the bone head is showing you that week? do you think that it is helping you gals?

I think this is a good topic. Lets read from the women here.

Peace,TWS

[neilhytholt]

Going hard on women is a starter, but it's not really going to help them because they don't have the upper body strength anyway.

IMHO you have to train them a totally different way.

[travelsbyknight]

Here's the truth, buddies.

MOST of the time women don't get raped by "some hell bent dude who attacks them in the back seat of their car." Most rapes are perpetrated by someone the woman knows and it usually happens in her house/apa
rtment/dorm room. Go figure. The movies have put a false view in our heads. I'm starting to disagree with the way this topic is going. Train women the way they are attacked? So that means a woman shouldn't learn pak sao in a wing chun school since she won't get mugged that way? I guess she should master swimming so it will be easier to slide her body out from under that of a gigantic man attacker.

I'm talking about KUNG FU training. How are we going to train women in kung fu??? I want to chi sao with that little woman I mentioned in the origional post and not feel like I can just pick her up and throw up out the window, go get a milkshake and then bring her back for more after I'm done. I guess she has to start working on hitting harder, aggressiveness in general, more speed, less sticking and more sensitivity.

But how? THe women I train with are too willy nilly. I'm not saying this about all women but I have yet to meet one that I like training with.

[BoulderDawg]

Rape is rape no matter where it occurs.

Personally I don't think the average women is going to learn enough martial arts to prevent the attack. Therefore I believe most of these self defense classes should be focused on escaping and getting away. Teach these women a few basic forms to allow them to escape....then run.

I think one of the worst things they tell women is to go for the groin. To be very effective she's going to have to hit the guy pretty accurately because if she doesn't the rape might just turn into murder.

[David Jamieson]

There really shouldn't be any difference in training a guy or a girl.
the method is the same.

mismatching you with someone is kind of a drag and yes, you don't learn much from someone who can't challenge you, be it a guy or a girl.

mixed classes of adults and kids is a bad idea as well especially if there is drills involved. waste of time for pretty much everyone involved.

anyway, rule of thumb is to try and spend time with others who challenge you.

having said that, perhaps you can try to provide her with the challenge, help her find her leaks, and how to patch em.

[The Willow Sword]

Originally posted by Travelsbyknight

Here's the truth, buddies.

MOST of the time women don't get raped by "some hell bent dude who attacks them in the back seat of their car."

well you misquoted me knight. reread it and quote correctly next time.


IN fact the truth about women being assaulted in the manner i wrote is VERY REAL. Knight is correct that the assault comes from someone that they know and knight is also correct that it happens in their house/apartment/dormroom. Of course sexual assaults DO occur outside the home and more often times than not will occur in an unfamiliar area such as a parkinglot.

but the issue is not where a woman is assaulted, the issue is training for the assault.
i dont mean to suggest that women shouldnt learn forms and such and not go through the same curriculum as the rest of the class. But i DO think that there should be exclusive classes for women to really train them to deal with the myriad of BS that they have to endure with respect to men.

Peace,TWS

[dainos]

the problem is that your going to soft on them too. if you feel like you can throw her and get a slurpee then come back. you should do just that. if its a style they teach the same way. its her fault that she choose that style. and this sounds like alot of it could be improved by sparring. everyone is diffrent. i am not a very strong guy. almost everone is stronger than i am includeing women i am almost taller then everyone too. so spar with her tell her mistakes and video tape her while its going on

then show her the tape and what she could have done better and etc.

so go harder on them. they willl figure the rest out on their own. if they take one punch then get outta there. its kung fu expect to get a little hurt

[atlas1212]

This whole thread is ticking me off because the "anti-women" vibe here is just wrong.

How selfish is this thread starter? You don't think when he started people though he was crappy? Well, they trained with him anyway. Have patience. Help others. If you don't get a lot out of it, fine. But remember, a lot of people don't get a lot out of training with you. The Kwoon is a family. Do you not like spending time with your kids because they can't read as good as you? Seriously, quit being so selfish.

Kung Fu will build a woman's strength, speed, explosiveness etc. Maybe on a scale of 1 to 10 a woman's power is 1 when she starts. Maybe for a particular woman it maxes out at 3. But 3 may make all the difference in the world for that one eye strike, shot to the nose or groing strike that will save her life. Her knowledge of vital point striking is increased. Her fear is conquered. Her awareness improved. Her health is improved. And her ability to avoid conflict is improved. It's not all about who is stronger.

I've been involved in the martial arts for nearly 20 years and I can learn from white belts, kids, women or anyone. There is always something to learn from EVERYONE if you just open your darn mind.

[dainos]

100%
nice post

if thease guys dont get that... they are scewed. when i read about the challaneging thingy im like.

hey i fight my sifus all the time. they dont get much benefit. but they know how to fight a guy who sucks and knows he sucks

[atlas1212]

Yup.

Some people don't see the big picture.

[crimsonghost]

Sometimes when I train women I find it is better to show them that power can be achieved by a woman. My Sifu is a very tall man and he will have me demonstrate technique on him for the women who come into class. He trained me one on one and never budged an inch. If my technique is not right, not enough force to move, unbalance, or bend him, he doesn't move.
I'll admit that this was very frustrating when I first started out, but I really apprecieted it.
When you train with her explain to her what she needs to do to gain more force and how to manipulate your weight and strength against you. This will in the end benefit you as well, for you will learn with her how to overcome a stronger opponent.
I do see that many women seem not to have the "killer instinct" or aggressiveness that most men do. But, also, I have noticed that when you empower them, and prove to them that power can be achieved even with their small frame a lion is released. When their confidence grows so will their force, power and speed, just like anyother student.

[BruceSteveRoy]

as for women having no upper body strength i have to say this woman i work with has an 8 year old daughter that is a gymnast and she can do 23 pull ups in a minute. she can climb the rope from floor to ceiling in a pike poistion only using her arms then back down to do push ups before repeating it. i think it really depends on the woman (or girl) in question. so i have been trying to get this co worker to sign her daughter up for kung fu for about 6 months. i don't think its going to happen :(

also there is an instructor at wongs chinese boxing association. i think she is related to sifu wong but i am not sure and from what i have seen of her she is very very good.

this is not to say i don't see your point i just think it might be a little much to make sweeping generalizations. i am sure that for every example of an exellent female MAist or athlete i give any one of you can give me an example of a bad one probably multiple examples. but i think that is true for guy MAists too.

[neilhytholt]

as for women having no upper body strength i have to say this woman i work with has an 8 year old daughter that is a gymnast and she can do 23 pull ups in a minute. she can climb the rope from floor to ceiling in a pike poistion only using her arms then back down to do push ups before repeating it. i think it really depends on the woman (or girl) in question. so i have been trying to get this co worker to sign her daughter up for kung fu for about 6 months. i don't think its going to happen :(

also there is an instructor at wongs chinese boxing association. i think she is related to sifu wong but i am not sure and from what i have seen of her she is very very good.

this is not to say i don't see your point i just think it might be a little much to make sweeping generalizations. i am sure that for every example of an exellent female MAist or athlete i give any one of you can give me an example of a bad one probably multiple examples. but i think that is true for guy MAists too.

You have to be non-politically correct and realistic. I'm sorry but to go to the women's jail. Go to the men's jail.

I ask you, if the men were to attack the women, which one has better upper body strength? Yes, it's not the women.

Of course, there are some women with developed upper bodies (female body builders), but they are the small minority and a lot of them had to use 'roids to get where they are.

[crimsonghost]

None of that matters.
Upper body strength is great for lifting, not crutial for defending yourself.
I don't even try to compete with men's strength, it is much easier to use it against them. Re-direction and forward force will give you all the strength you need to strike the neck, back of the head, nose, groin, knees, whatever.
Focus what power you have on a specific vital point will be effective enough.
Don't punch a strong man in the stomach,
chop his throat, or break the knee.
fight smart, not hard.

[neilhytholt]

None of that matters.
Upper body strength is great for lifting, not crutial for defending yourself.
I don't even try to compete with men's strength, it is much easier to use it against them. Re-direction and forward force will give you all the strength you need to strike the neck, back of the head, nose, groin, knees, whatever.
Focus what power you have on a specific vital point will be effective enough.
Don't punch a strong man in the stomach,
chop his throat, or break the knee.
fight smart, not hard.

IMHO even that won't work against guys, you have to use light weapons. But whatever.

In all my years of martial arts I only ever met 2 women who could fight as well and punch as well as the guys.

And that being said, even so, most trained MA guys would have a hard time fighting boxers, so the majority of women would have little chance.

[im_dabich]

I might be different but I am stronger then alot of the guys on my martial arts team.. Excuse my language, But I am a mean lil *****.. I dont bend, im not soft, or weak. I am hard core. I train right along the guys I am not treated any different then the guys are and nither is my daughter. If I was treated any different I would kick my sifu's ass my self.. So if there are lil prissy princess girl's in Kung-Fu then they might want to try tai chi or something girly.. Im not a prissy lil princess and I will not be treated like one. If someone is Man enough to hit me like a man then I am going to hit them even harder......

[neilhytholt]

I might be different but I am stronger then alot of the guys on my martial arts team.. Excuse my language, But I am a mean lil *****.. I dont bend, im not soft, or weak. I am hard core. I train right along the guys I am not treated any different then the guys are and nither is my daughter. If I was treated any different I would kick my sifu's ass my self.. So if there are lil prissy princess girl's in Kung-Fu then they might want to try tai chi or something girly.. Im not a prissy lil princess and I will not be treated like one. If someone is Man enough to hit me like a man then I am going to hit them even harder......

Yeah, I've met 2 women like you. Not to mess with. One was 6'3" and BUFF. The other one was 5'11 and worked her ass off and MEAN. But she was the best sensei ever. She kept correcting all my katas in places I didn't even know I was making mistakes.

But the majority of women aren't like that. Don't know how to make women like that. Don't think my daughter's going to be like that, because her mom sure isn't.

[crimsonghost]

I'm only 5'6" and all I train with are men. 5'11"-6'4".
I am really baffled that so many martial artists truely believe that a woman cannot defeat a man. lol!
There's a Kempo teacher here who's daughter defeats men who come into the school every day (who then become students). Sifu Jim Fungs student Karen Armstrong is a slender woman and she does the same thing.
My teacher is 6'4" and he has trained me to defend against grosly large and muscled men.
It's all in techniqe, reaction and sensitivity. But WC was designed specifically for this issue.

[im_dabich]

Well if you want your daughter to be like that then dont treat her any different then you would a boy... My kids are all treated the same when it comes to training we are as hard on the girls as we are the boys.. youll see it makes a different.. In fact at work I work a man's job.. How i see it is there is no diference between males and females.. The females that are girley and prissey make the world a horrable place for the rest of us females.. Guys tend to take it easy on us. When in all reality we could prolly do it better then half the men could.. Well have a nice day I am off to work.. TTYL

[neilhytholt]

Well if you want your daughter to be like that then dont treat her any different then you would a boy... My kids are all treated the same when it comes to training we are as hard on the girls as we are the boys.. youll see it makes a different.. In fact at work I work a man's job.. How i see it is there is no diference between males and females.. The females that are girley and prissey make the world a horrable place for the rest of us females.. Guys tend to take it easy on us. When in all reality we could prolly do it better then half the men could.. Well have a nice day I am off to work.. TTYL

Well right now I'm actually being harder on my daughter than my son, because my son can't differentiate right now between when he should be doing martial arts vs. when he should not be (he's 5).

So now he and I play T-Ball and videogames, and his sister is doing forms, some staff and partner drills. She's only 7 so I don't know how long she'll be interested, but she learns stuff extremely quickly.

[dainos]

Well right now I'm actually being harder on my daughter than my son, because my son can't differentiate right now between when he should be doing martial arts vs. when he should not be (he's 5).

So now he and I play T-Ball and videogames, and his sister is doing forms, some staff and partner drills. She's only 7 so I don't know how long she'll be interested, but she learns stuff extremely quickly.


she means dont treat your daughter as a girl. dont go out and buy dresses etc etc. your being harder in martial arts cause she is older.

[neilhytholt]

she means dont treat your daughter as a girl. dont go out and buy dresses etc etc. your being harder in martial arts cause she is older.

She has some dresses but doesn't really wear them anymore unless she's going to church with Grandma or her mother or something.

I don't want her to be a total freak -- I'm not going to treat her like a boy. But since she lives with 2 guys she doesn't really act that much like a girl anyway. About the only thing she does that's girly, I guess, is play with Beanie babies, and I don't dare touch the Beanie babies.

[BoulderDawg]

I am really baffled that so many martial artists truely believe that a woman cannot defeat a man. lol!

If you take a man and woman of equal martial arts ability and pit them against each other the man will win 99% of the time because of strength. Sorry that's just the way it is.

[dainos]

If you take a man and woman of equal martial arts ability and pit them against each other the man will win 99% of the time because of strength. Sorry that's just the way it is.
so what. the man has more strength. but ussally the women has more speed. take that in account and particualr fight styles your statistics are worthless. if the only factor was strength and gender
then no **** sherlock.

[neilhytholt]

so what. the man has more strength. but ussally the women has more speed. take that in account and particualr fight styles your statistics are worthless. if the only factor was strength and gender
then no **** sherlock.

No, he's totally correct. I mean, to think that on average women can defend against men is a total joke.

Think about it. What woman could hope to fight in the UFC? Or Pride? Or any sport like that?

I mean, I've met 2 good women MAists, but they would never be able to take on a top male fighter.

Women have different classes of sports for a reason. That reason is a lack of testosterone. A lack of muscle mass, unless they do 'roids.

Speed is basically useless unless you have a weapon. My daughter, for example, I'm training her to use her nails as a weapon against eyes, her legs against the groin. Once she gets the staff down I'm going to teach her light weapons.

Why does everybody have to be so politically correct? Obviously there are sexual differences. Obviously men were the ones who went out usually to fight the bears in the caveman days. The men have more facial hair to keep their faces warm in winter when they went out.

[neilhytholt]

Oh, and if you want my real un-politically correct opinion, based on animal behavior, IMHO women are weaker than men because if it were the other way around, there would be no babies. LOL

All the women would run away from the ugly men. LOL

[crimsonghost]

You guys are really funny!
Think what you like, but I have seen it otherwise and successfully defended myself against men. I guess it depends on the style you use. Use a style that depends on brute force, sure a man will win. Use a style that uses defelction, and redirection, the woman has an equal chance.
I meet alot of guys that try to muscle WC and me in class, and they do more harm to themselves than good.
If you stay loose you can strike with more speed and force. Bruce Lee emphasized this in his book and JKD. He was only about 5'6"-5'8" and he did very well.
Grand Master Yip Man was a tiny skinny old man and he still threw younger larger men around all day long.
Personally, I love training with men, because many of them hold to your beliefs. Their a great work out, good practice. Plus it's neat to watch them learn something from the experience.:p

[crimsonghost]

Oh, and if you want my real un-politically correct opinion, based on animal behavior, IMHO women are weaker than men because if it were the other way around, there would be no babies. LOL

All the women would run away from the ugly men. LOL

Darlin', we do run from the ugly men! lol
The problem is, they run after! :D

[neilhytholt]

You guys are really funny!
Think what you like, but I have seen it otherwise and successfully defended myself against men. I guess it depends on the style you use. Use a style that depends on brute force, sure a man will win. Use a style that uses defelction, and redirection, the woman has an equal chance.
I meet alot of guys that try to muscle WC and me in class, and they do more harm to themselves than good.
If you stay loose you can strike with more speed and force. Bruce Lee emphasized this in his book and JKD. He was only about 5'6"-5'8" and he did very well.
Grand Master Yip Man was a tiny skinny old man and he still threw younger larger men around all day long.
Personally, I love training with men, because many of them hold to your beliefs. Their a great work out, good practice. Plus it's neat to watch them learn something from the experience.:p

Yeah, honestly I think you are drinking the cool-ade. I think you are suffering from 'don't hit the chick hard' syndrome. Meaning, the guys are going easy on you because you're a chick (I used to do it all the time in class because otherwise the women get p*ssed off at you).

If I could find a woman who could defend herself like you're saying, I'd probably study from her. But unfortunately doesn't seem to be any such woman existing.

If you're so good, why don't you fight the UFC and Pride folks? Make yourself some money? I'm betting you realize that you wouldn't do well.

[neilhytholt]

Darlin', we do run from the ugly men! lol
The problem is, they run after! :D

Just natural ... if they weren't running after you, you'd be complaining you weren't getting any attention.

[BoulderDawg]

You guys are really funny!
Think what you like, but I have seen it otherwise and successfully defended myself against men. I guess it depends on the style you use. Use a style that depends on brute force, sure a man will win. Use a style that uses defelction, and redirection, the woman has an equal chance.
I meet alot of guys that try to muscle WC and me in class, and they do more harm to themselves than good.
If you stay loose you can strike with more speed and force. Bruce Lee emphasized this in his book and JKD. He was only about 5'6"-5'8" and he did very well.
Grand Master Yip Man was a tiny skinny old man and he still threw younger larger men around all day long.
Personally, I love training with men, because many of them hold to your beliefs. Their a great work out, good practice. Plus it's neat to watch them learn something from the experience.:p

All that doesn't negate anything. If a man is as skilled in the style as the women then the man will win every time.

I've also read on this thread that women have the advantage in speed......

I was wondering where this information came from. If this was true then women could compete against men in such sports as track and tennis.

[neilhytholt]

All that doesn't negate anything. If a man is as skilled in the style as the women then the man will win every time.

I've also read on this thread that women have the advantage in speed......

I was wondering where this information came from. If this was true then women could compete against men in such sports as track and tennis.

I've found that women are good with very intricate movements doing them fast. Not saying men can't do that too, it seems to take more work, however.

Not talking about plain running speed, etc.

Let's face it ... women are probably inferior to men in terms of most things, but men don't have a womb or breasts to suckle children. So the human race can't do without women.

Plus, women tend to live longer than men.

What gets me, though, is now we treat men like idiots so they seem to act like idiots. We have completely emasculated men. Oh, well.

Edit ... well not completely. But all the boys I meet on ADD drugs nowadays it's kindof a shame. We drug boys up for just being boys and not acting like little girls.

[travelsbyknight]

neilhytholt, boulderdawg: You guys are taking this waaaay too far. Maybe I'm to blame for starting it but you guys need to get over being hurt by your ex-girlfriends.

So what I'm getting from this is that women should be treated just like men. Hit them just as hard, as fast, cause them to bleed. I don't think most martial arts schools will allow this. Women are going to have to be the ones to step up and let us dudes know what the deal is. Most girls I come accross are just that, girly. They say they want to be hit just as hard as a man...but then I punched her in the stomach while chi saoing...and she got mad at me. I hit her as hard as I would a dude...and...she got hurt. I hit her pretty fuking hard. I guess I shouldn't generalize from this one experience but I do.

Another sensitive issue: Hitting women in the boobs. I have no problems with this and I'm not talking about from a perverted point of view. Every woman I chi sao with, I tell her she may take a few shots to the breasts. Most of them say they're okay with it...until it happens. Then I get called an *******. Where the heck am I supposed to hit you instead? I know. I'll punch you right in the face. How about that? When I strike I strike anywhere and everywhere accept the face and below the belt. That should be a standard rule when doing any activity. Some girls have big breasts that cover a majority of this striking area. Are women prepared to have sore breasts at the end of each night? I got a lecture once from my sifu that I could've damaged this girl's breast tissue which could've lead to cancer. It's not an exact quote but basically I got crap for hitting one of the girls.

I'm at the end of my rant. Women need to step up and stop acting so **** girly. Seriously. Men are uncomfortable as it is around women so women need to say, "Bring it on" and they need to mean it.

I don't think most of this is sexism as some are calling it. Some of the comments might sound ignant(ha!) but calling us sexist is a bit too liberal. Instead of labeling mens' comments why don't you get your gal pals together and toughen them up a bit. And then we'll have a kung fu battle of the sexes.

[neilhytholt]

They can't take hard hits. They are weak is the bottom line. Hits to their tits hurts them. Hits to their face could break them.

They lack muscle mass and have smaller chests.

You've got weak spots too. Try somebody hitting you in the nuts, and it will hurt a lot. It doesn't take much to poke out an eye.

My comments have got nothing to do with some woman hurting me. I'm just pointing out the obvious, something evidently you and some others don't seem to realize.

Edit ...

You know, your comments are like ??? You're complaining they're getting hurt, and you're saying they should step up and stop acting girly.

But THEY ARE GIRLS. They are women. They are weaker than you.

Try taking big doses of estrogen for a while and watch what happens. Muscle mass goes way, way down, hair on your face and body starts thinning. Bone mass decreases. Prostate shrinks, so your chance of prostate cancer goes way, way down.

But you're weaker.

[viper]

When I train with the women at my training I dont play its on they most of the time like to avoid me but hey its real out there if someones gna rape u they arnt gna say now u do this and run or wateva so u train like u fight. Also I dont bring my emotions into training I wont let them cop the rap for pain ive experienced from relationships or women I know thats crap.

[BoulderDawg]

There is nothing personal here. I'm just stating fact.

As far as the girls toughening up: I've sparred a few ladies and I've never had one ask me spar them as I would anybody else.

I think the vast majority of women take up MA to improve physical fittness and advance in the art. I don't think many really get into martial arts to be able to beat up men.

[neilhytholt]

When I train with the women at my training I dont play its on they most of the time like to avoid me but hey its real out there if someones gna rape u they arnt gna say now u do this and run or wateva so u train like u fight. Also I dont bring my emotions into training I wont let them cop the rap for pain ive experienced from relationships or women I know thats crap.

It's got nothing to do with pain in relationships or anything, good grief, get your heads out of your a**es for a few minutes.

I used to treat women in the kwoon much like then men. Except, I hit my first sifu's daughter when training once, kindof hard, and gave her a concussion.

So then, I stopped doing that. I started going softer. So I didn't train for about 10 years (train striking with women, that is -- I did jujitsu and judo), and I got to this karate school that had a ton of female blackbelts. I was training with another guy, not a woman, and hit him with moderate force, and he acted kindof sniffy and said if I hit the women blackbelts like that, I'd be in trouble.

So once time during sparring, I did just that, I hit one of them with about 20% of force in the side of the face, just to see what would happen. She totally lost it on me, got extremely p*ssed off, etc.

You have to understand that women are weaker at the BONE LEVEL. It's not just their muscles, it's actually THEIR BONES. They have less bone density than men and it gets worse the older they get.

Women have bigger hips, smaller chests, less dense bones, less muscle and more fat. Pound for pound.

So you just can't train with them at the same level of intensity because you will break them.

None of my comments have anything to do with my relationships. It has to do from experience in the kwoon.

Good grief I was under the impression this was common knowledge, but I guess people are more ignorant than I thought.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think many really get into martial arts to be able to beat up men.


except for j-lo in that craptacular crapfest piece of crap crappiness she made a few years back. lol:p

[Royal Dragon]

My daughter is almost 16. She has been a hard core gymnast, and into ice skateing PLUS, I ahve been beating on her her whole life (often hard). She is as sweet as they come, but also STRONGER than most of the guys her age. the only ones who surpass her are male gymnasts with same type of training she has gone through (not very common).


When she wants to kick ass, she has no problem taking down an adult, skilll, or no skill. She seems to naturally flow into painfull chin na's, and hit with great power without even thinking. She has all that structure, and full body mechanics from more than a decade of gymnastics behind her. even sparring hard, she can slip in a knockout shot.

any former gymnasts I'm sure would be just as tough. female gymnasts will hang with the boys anytime, and love to show them up.

[neilhytholt]

My daughter is almost 16. She has been a hard core gymnast, and into ice skateing PLUS, I ahve been beating on her her whole life (often hard). She is as sweet as they come, but also STRONGER than most of the guys her age. the only ones who surpass her are male gymnasts with same type of training she has gone through (not very common).


When she wants to kick ass, she has no problem taking down an adult, skilll, or no skill. She seems to naturally flow into painfull chin na's, and hit with great power without even thinking. She has all that structure, and full body mechanics from more than a decade of gymnastics behind her. even sparring hard, she can slip in a knockout shot.

any former gymnasts I'm sure would be just as tough. female gymnasts will hang with the boys anytime, and love to show them up.

That's just because boys these days are wusses. Put a guy through the same training, see what happens.

[_William_]

Let's face it ... women are probably inferior to men in terms of most things, but men don't have a womb or breasts to suckle children. So the human race can't do without women.


You mean inferior athletically or what?

[neilhytholt]

No, I meant inferior in terms of most things. IMHO we have given women 'equality' at the expense of men.

Instead of raising women up we've dumbed down men. I can't believe the idiots that are running things in this country now.

That doesn't mean women can't get better but IMHO it's not their priority. Their priorities run more towards socializing and raising kids.

Anyways, I'm not complaining too much because obviously it's better than people getting made slaves and all that nonsense. But still it seems like we are ill equipped as a species to solve the major problems of the world.

[neilhytholt]

Anyways now I need to find these good women wing-chunners because my daughter needs good training.

I've heard that it was a woman's style and all that, but I never really took that mythology seriously.

[viper]

Soo much anger gee wizz. If thats ur view then I wont say its wrong but it seems to me this threed some form of real life emotion in the convo to convey everyones ideals.

[viper]

neilhytholt its hard to tell whether u speak from a purly ma point of view or a life view and with alot of the posts ive been reading from u id assume its a life view. Also if women want equlity theyll get it regardless of bones muscles whateva.

[neilhytholt]

This conversation is kindof going nowhere. If women want to train hard then they train hard. There's lots of guys who whine and slack off in the kwoon as well.

[viper]

I def agree with that I think there should be a rule made traditional in all schools slackers get hit by a baseball bat

[im_dabich]

Well I am refuring to you saying that men will win 99% of the time.. Not true. I have only been beat by one man and that is my husband. That was only besacue i didnt want to hurt him... You ppl judge females to much.. We are stonger mind wise and faster and when we want to we can have more strength.. i am a very strong female and I have yet to meet a female that wasent strong in some point or another.. The last tourniment I was at there was about 20 females that were all 18 and over and i would have to say that there was only one that was weak and she was weak because she had only been training for a few weeks and it was her first tourniment. She didnt know what to expect and she was scared to hurt someone.. She dominated in forms and wepons but then it came to sparring she lost.. She looked weak... What I am saying is dont judge a book by it's cover.. Trust me you would never want to come up aginest me. I dont look like i'd be tough but you get hit by me once maybe twice and you'd feel it internally and youd feel it for a few days after that... So quit hateing on females.. One day a female will run this country and all you men will be the less dominate ones....

[dainos]

I def agree with that I think there should be a rule made traditional in all schools slackers get hit by a baseball bat

noo its slackers get hit with a wax wood staff in the legs and make them sit lower

[Jules]

I purposely put a loaded title up so that people would take notice.

Here's what I really mean.

I used to believe that men and women could both become profficient in the martial arts. MAybe I was naive or too idealistic. Now that a few years have passed I'm starting to see that almost no women have become profficient.

I find it frustrating to train with the women in my school. They inherently have what most men don't, the most important aspect of kung fu...they're soft. They bend instead of break. They redirect instead of staying planted and getting knocked over. They're not over tense like men. Here's the issue. They don't seem to get past this soft aspect of things. You need the soft and the hard but women seem to lack the hard. They bend against force but then they don't hit back like a whip. They just bend and get pushed over.


There might be something physiological to that, but keep in mind it does not go for ALL women. Me, for instance, I "bend" and am "too soft" in movements. The plus side is that only one person can joint-lock me, and it's Sifu. I am just hyper-mobile is all. The down side is, yeah, not enough tension.

On the other hand, I know two women that I train with who are very HARD in their movements and technique. And from what I understand, there wasn't a guy in her class that could win against my Lao Shir when she was training, and she was very HARD.

There is something to it, physically, but keep in mind that it is SOME women and not all of them.

~~Jules

[Jules]

Some girls have big breasts that cover a majority of this striking area. Are women prepared to have sore breasts at the end of each night?

Are you comfortable getting hit in the nuts? Don't even sit there and whine that it hurts so much worse, either. Both things can damage you. There is a reason why you guard your nuts. There is a reason why women guard their boobs. Boy, some of you people just really cling to your double standards, don't you?

~~Jules

[The Willow Sword]

I still maintain that Women Need some specialized training in additon to the training they get in the co-ed classes of whatever Martial style they are taking.

i challenge the women here to go to their teachers and ask them about being trained to deal with the sexual assault . See what kind of reaction you will get from them.

Peace,TWS

[Scott R. Brown]

There seems to be a lack of maturity amongst some here! This isn’t that complicated! With any partner in training (male or female) that you have greater skill than, you train according to the individual’s ability and not your own. A person with greater skill trains at a level just beyond their partner’s ability in order to bring them along. If you are training with a partner of greater skill it is your responsibility to strive to improve your own skills. No one should train so far beyond their partner as to bring about frustration or discouragement. If you are doing this your actions are self-centered and immature.

If your partner doesn’t want to get smacked in the breasts or too hard in the face it is your responsibility to tone down the aggressiveness. It is not a matter of who you train with it is a matter of respect for your fellow students and your own selfishness. Some individuals like aggressive training, some don’t!

Some women are tough, some aren’t, some men are tough some aren’t. This isn’t about the inherent value of men or women, it isn’t about toughness, it is about learning and growing in a supportive environment. Training according to your partner’s ability helps you too. It will help you to grow and mature in ways that allow you develop self control and to respect the limits of others. Control over your emotions and physical skills will help when in a real life encounter. If you go too far in a real life encounter, even if you were initially acting defensively, you may be held accountable in a court of law. Control over your skills and emotions will help you to react according to the circumstances and not over react in a manner that will create negative consequences for yourself.

One would not act with full force upon a 10 year old child because of the differences in strength and ability. Why would one do the same thing to a women or a diminutive man just because they are adults? Show some respect and self control and train with your partner according to their desired intensity and ability!

[CFT]

One would not act with full force upon a 10 year old child because of the differences in strength and ability. Why would one do the same thing to a women or a diminutive man just because they are adults? Show some respect and self control and train with your partner according to their desired intensity and ability!I agree with oyur post Scott. But if a school purports to teach self-defence and anti-rape techniques then the students need to train to counter a level of aggressiveness and intensity which doesn't even come close to replicating the real event.

One needs to offer enough pressure to help the students improve, but at the "advanced" levels they should be working against pressure that they might expect in a self-defence situation.

And for those who think training with women is negative, there is technique, sensitivity and speed to work on. It makes you question whether you are relying on mass/strength and makes you focus on technique.

[Jules]

I still maintain that Women Need some specialized training in additon to the training they get in the co-ed classes of whatever Martial style they are taking.

i challenge the women here to go to their teachers and ask them about being trained to deal with the sexual assault . See what kind of reaction you will get from them.

Peace,TWS


I agree with this. I also will say that it is pretty awkward to ask for help with something like that. No matter how much you like and enjoy your teachers, there remains this polite respect that keeps a cap on bringing up things like that. As a culture, we're really shy about things that can be sexualized. I'm no exception, though it would be helpful if we could get over it. :)

~~J

[Crushing Fist]

like seriously... how would that training seesion go?



I'm going to pretend to rape you and you try to stop me...



This is something I feel very strongly about and it is a difficult thing to train.

I think like anything, the best defense here is to be very aware of danger and not to end up in a time/place where there is no help or escape. Whatever level of training someone has it may very well not be enough against a serious predator. This goes for everyone, not just women... they are just often seen as easier prey.

[Ray Pina]

Can women be trained the same way as men? If not then how should women be trained in kung fu?

Women should be trained in weaponry. Even trained women will have a very hard time facing a motivated man.

I know many schools instruct on striking the balls, eyes, etc. A man on drugs of near equal size will only be angered. Women should learn weapons.

[Royal Dragon]

Just cross train in BJJ, it's close enough to an actual rape situation....

[Scott R. Brown]

I agree with oyur post Scott. But if a school purports to teach self-defence and anti-rape techniques then the students need to train to counter a level of aggressiveness and intensity which doesn't even come close to replicating the real event.

One needs to offer enough pressure to help the students improve, but at the "advanced" levels they should be working against pressure that they might expect in a self-defence situation.

And for those who think training with women is negative, there is technique, sensitivity and speed to work on. It makes you question whether you are relying on mass/strength and makes you focus on technique.

Hi CFT,

Yes, I agree with you!

If a student wishes to learn actual self-defense they do need to gradually work up to REAL attack situations. Students who are timid must be brought along somewhat gently. As their ability and confidence grows so does the intensity of the training. How and when this occurs is a decision for the student in question and the instructor to make, not other students! One of the worst things for a school is for students training together to not respect the emotional and physical limitations of their training partners. This will chase students away. Intimidating and aggressive students should learn physical and emotional self-control while timid students learn to be more confident and aggressive.

Everyone will learn at a rate in accordance to their individual ability and temperament. Student partners are not in the position to decide what this pace is or should be!

[BoulderDawg]

Well I am refuring to you saying that men will win 99% of the time.. Not true. I have only been beat by one man and that is my husband. That was only besacue i didnt want to hurt him... You ppl judge females to much.. We are stonger mind wise and faster and when we want to we can have more strength.. i am a very strong female and I have yet to meet a female that wasent strong in some point or another.. The last tourniment I was at there was about 20 females that were all 18 and over and i would have to say that there was only one that was weak and she was weak because she had only been training for a few weeks and it was her first tourniment. She didnt know what to expect and she was scared to hurt someone.. She dominated in forms and wepons but then it came to sparring she lost.. She looked weak... What I am saying is dont judge a book by it's cover.. Trust me you would never want to come up aginest me. I dont look like i'd be tough but you get hit by me once maybe twice and you'd feel it internally and youd feel it for a few days after that... So quit hateing on females.. One day a female will run this country and all you men will be the less dominate ones....

Hmmmmm.........

Sounds like someone's trying to make a funny......that is given the user name and the nature of the post.

Anyway you keep saying women are faster.......What you you base this on? Even in competitions such as cup stacking (Can't believe people actuallty compete at this but they do) the boys beat the girls every time.

[Jules]

Women should be trained in weaponry. Even trained women will have a very hard time facing a motivated man.

I know many schools instruct on striking the balls, eyes, etc. A man on drugs of near equal size will only be angered. Women should learn weapons.

Except that you can't really carry around most weapons, I think.

~~Jules

[neilhytholt]

Except that you can't really carry around most weapons, I think.

~~Jules

Actually, most women carry around 2 very good weapons, but don't know how to use them.

1) Long nails.
2) Purse.

[travelsbyknight]

jules,

It's easier for me to hit you in the boobs than it is for you to hit me in the balls. I'm not talking about sparring with a gigantic helmet and gloves. I don't believe in that kind of training. ANyone can win a sparring match. All it takes is one hard shot to the head to make someone lose momentary/or complete focus.

I'm not talking about rape at all here. I'm not sure what my first post says anymore but here's the deal.

How do we train women to gain the same KUNG FU skills as men? THis doesn't just apply to kung fu. Any style you please. The guys I train with take it easy on the women. It's very evident and very dumb, I think. That's why I punched that chick in the stomach. You hit to hit...not to let someone get out of the way of a slower less powerful hit. That doesn't do her any good.

The weapons idea, by RAy, has some merit to it. Weapons are the great equalizer. A knife will cut right through solid muscle.

I'm having a genious moment here. Sometimes I train with bigger stronger guys. And sometimes I have trouble getting out of their way. So I understand how a girl feels when going up against someone bigger. My solution? Become softer to cirumvent his power, move my feet more, improve my timing. I think I just tapped into my inner woman. I'm a quiesachsherach(from Dune). I probably spelled it wrong. This is what all people in martial arts, not just chicks, have to do to improve. BUT the women are the ones who are going to be responsible to learn this on their own. The three areas I just mentioned can only be trained by the individual. They can't be learned by watching someone else or having training partners take it easy on them. Me so smart me answered my own question.

Back to this rape business. Here's the scoop. Most of us won't be able to stop such situations. If I get mugged by a bunch of guys or a guy with a gun I probably won't get out of that situation without losing some facial hair and money. All this rape training scenario business? Men probably get raped more than women. Where? Prison. Prison rapes aren't included in 'regular' rape statistics. Almost no man escapes prison rape. No siree. So forget all this scenario bs and just train to get the skills of your style. Ultimately it is up to all of you individually to escape whatever situation you're in. You can't train for every outcome. I'd rather train a woman to get the basic skills then have a bunch of her training partners yell at her and pretend to try and drag her off. Through her training of her skillset hopefully she'll develop the spirit to live in those situation.

[crimsonghost]

Well, my ultomate standing on this issue is...
If the art doesn't work for a woman, she shouldn't take it.
Being a female myself, I've trained several arts. I love martial arts very much and love to train. But I have found some arts to be more effective for a woman than others. plain and simple.
Where I train now I train with only men. Only men take WC and it's really annoying to me. Women seem to be jaded to the fact that they cannot defeat a male opponent.
this is nonsense. Now, when I studied ju-jitsu I could overcome many men, but not most or all. too much muscle, and effort. I took Tang Soo Do as a kid. In reality head kicks take too long on the street (i lived in a bad neighborhood. got practical practice! lol!) and the punching technique never gave me much power. etc.. etc.. I took a little from one art some from another and compiled a way to fight.
Then I started Wing Chun, and the techniques there were physically effortless for my small size and lack of much physical strength. So far, when I train with all the big guys (their all bigger than me! lol) they don't go any lighter than on each other. Actually, the techniques work better if they really try to hit you.
Now, I always wanted to train Akido, and a few other arts, just didn't find them in my area and price range. I'm sure their are many arts just as good.
Every person needs to find an art that suits them. Especially women.
They really don't need to waste their time with techniqes that aren't working for them. We've got more to lose than our lives.

[Scott R. Brown]

Any style you please. The guys I train with take it easy on the women. It's very evident and very dumb, I think. That's why I punched that chick in the stomach. You hit to hit...not to let someone get out of the way of a slower less powerful hit. That doesn't do her any good.

Acting like a jerk doesn't do her any good either. Unless you are the instructor you have no business making this decision and a good instructor would not have your poor attitude or acted in such a manner without prior agreement with the woman. It isn't your job to treat your classmates with disrespect. Most likely the only thing she learned from this is not to spar with you anymore. If I were you instructor, depending upon the circumstances, I would have either given you a good talk, given you some of your own medicine, or both!!


I'm having a genious moment here.

You would be better off having a maturity moment!


Almost no man escapes prison rape. No siree.

I have 12 years experience in the CA prison system, working in the medical department AND as a Correctional Officer, I can say with a certainty that you are wrong!!! Not even close to most inmates get raped! How old are you 12? Fights are common, rapes are not!!

[SimonM]

I'm a quiesachsherach(from Dune). I probably spelled it wrong.

Dude you spelled it way wrong.

[The Willow Sword]

I have come to the conclusion, after reading your posts(especially this latest one) that you are a dumba$$ and you dont know sh!t about anything you are talking about. :rolleyes:

Im through with this Thread.


As always,TWS

[Jules]

jules,

It's easier for me to hit you in the boobs than it is for you to hit me in the balls. .

So because it's easier, that somehow makes it more acceptable? I'm not so sure about that one, anyway. Hitting, maybe, but it's really not too hard to catch a guy with a kick to the nuts. Easy to do on accident, in fact.

[dainos]

So because it's easier, that somehow makes it more acceptable? I'm not so sure about that one, anyway. Hitting, maybe, but it's really not too hard to catch a guy with a kick to the nuts. Easy to do on accident, in fact.
he means your going to have to protect them harder then he will. you will have to deal with it. im pretty sure getting hit the boobs is not as painfuly as getting full blown out kicked in the groin. it may hurt but your going to have to be careful.

everybody has weaknesses

[Jules]

he means your going to have to protect them harder then he will. you will have to deal with it. im pretty sure getting hit the boobs is not as painfuly as getting full blown out kicked in the groin. it may hurt but your going to have to be careful.

everybody has weaknesses


Sure, we are as careful as we can be. But IIRC, he was talking about doing it on purpose. Big difference there.

Not sure if it's as painful or not; it depends on a lot of things, and me not having nuts and you not having boobs, we will never know for sure. But it is potentially very dangerous and inappropriate.

~~J

[RUFNTUFGIRL]

... I don't think many really get into martial arts to be able to beat up men.

You are right!

I know I did not. I first got into it because of something physically happening to me, but I didn't go because I wanted to hurt someone or even defend myself, it was emotional. I felt confident again and I had fun with it, after trying it I discovered that I did enjoy it, but as most things go life gets in the way and I stopped learning. It did, however, spark an interest in kickboxing and now I practice daily as well as teach it part time.
You can't train me like a man, but be real! women are different and everything you do with them is going to be altered. Hello, that is why we are women guys! I am sure there are more than a few men or Sifus that train people to better them not to train men only? It is not all about sparring and fighting? Is it, not for me anyway.

[David Jamieson]

you train towards the agenda and goals of the method you use.

in some schools this excludes actual combat practice vis a vis sparring, sparring full contact, free fighting etc etc.

in my opinion, it is unwise for buck beginners to participate in pressurized fighting practice. It's counter productive and doesn't foster a safe learning environment.

however, martial arts is "martial" and to not explore this facet is to leave a huge chunk of what training means out of the training and thereby renders said art "ineffective" ultimately.

[Su Lin]

Hi all, Im new here, only discovered this all today ,so quite excited!
Can I just make a few comments about women and kung fu?
I train with lots of men, some of whom I find it frustrating to train with, as they are quite "soft" and don't put the effort in. When I warm up I do exactly the same as the men, I swaet as much and work as hard.
I may not have the same upper body strength as some of them, but to be quite honest there are some who I have better upper body strength than. When we practice hand and kick blocks, I attack as though I am going in to punch, and expect my partner to give me as good as I get.
I had an experience with a guy who kept holding back as he didn't want to hit me in the chest, and I explained that I go to kung fu to learn kung fu, and that he should forget about that.I have as much chance of kicking him where it hurts too!
I know that some women who have come and trained with us have been quite "soft".
It all depends what you go to martial arts for. I don't go just for self defence, but because I want to practice kung fu. I think it's a shame that people generalise, and I do find it hard work that some men, although only a tiny percentage, treat me any differently. Whenever they come out with a comment like "ooh she's feisty" or "it must be that time of the month" when I'm sparring , I really have to bite my tongue, luckily it doesnt happen though!
There shouldnt be the need for women to try and prove themselves. If they are serious about training then fair enough,as I am. We have several men in the class who really should try harder, and are usually suprised when I can keep up!
Practicing kung fu has made me so much stronger, but I never really think about the practicalities of fending off attackers, as that would change the whole focus for me!

[neilhytholt]

Practicing kung fu has made me so much stronger, but I never really think about the practicalities of fending off attackers, as that would change the whole focus for me!

:shudder

Oh, well. I guess things are not the same now. When I first started taking MA over 20 years ago, it was about fighting and self defense.

Now I guess some people go for other reasons. No wonder it's so hard to find decent training these days.

[MasterKiller]

Fighting and Self Defense are not the same thing.

[neilhytholt]

Fighting and Self Defense are not the same thing.

Fighting is using one's fists or weapons to cause damage to the other person, or subdue the other person.

Self defense is fighting to defend oneself (edit or other people, like family). Or running away.

But it is still fighting.

[PangQuan]

you use fighting for self defense. not all times, but most.

if someone forces me to defend my self, i will use many fighting techniques and methods.

likewise if you enter a fight, premeditated on both ends. the moment the fight turns where you are on the total defensive and are losing, at this point your defending your self.

they are within each other but have seperate distinctions.

[Ray Pina]

Trust me you would never want to come up aginest me. I dont look like i'd be tough but you get hit by me once maybe twice and you'd feel it internally and youd feel it for a few days after that... So quit hateing on females.. One day a female will run this country and all you men will be the less dominate ones....

This is the proper mindset to have. At the same time, do you feel you would be a threat to a 6'4 unarmed man of 215lbs who is mentally set to rape and beat you were to find yourself cornered by him in a dark alley?

This is a tough scenario. Even as a male of 183lbs I would be very cautious fighting a hardened criminal of those same proportions.

Tournament fighting or sparring in class where there are many levels of protection (refs and gear) is different than stomping on a grown man's toe (who is wearing shoes) or kicking him in the nuts (who might be drunk or high) and making him more angry...... LEARN WEAPONRY!!!

This is not a post against women or men who train women. There are some wicked scary female boxers out there.... they can not match their male counterparts even at a lower weigth class. Man is just built stronger and more durable.

At the same time, I admit the female mind is more suited for fighting, the visciousness, etc.

[Ray Pina]

With any partner in training (male or female) that you have greater skill than, you train according to the individual’s ability and not your own. A person with greater skill trains at a level just beyond their partner’s ability in order to bring them along. If you are training with a partner of greater skill it is your responsibility to strive to improve your own skills.

Perfect...

[Ray Pina]

Except that you can't really carry around most weapons, I think.

~~Jules

Something as simple as the plastic square bar that holds your towel in the bathroom can be cut to forearm lenght and placed in a briefcase.... if questioned, it can be a weight to hold down maps, drafts, etc. The edges are very painful.

A paperclip can be unfolded and easily cut, scrape, and with some skill punctured into the throat.

A Monte Blanc pen in the right hands can cause much pain.

Weapons are everywhere and not just for women. On the street, if assaulted by a larger male, I would not hesitate to use anything and everything to my advantage.

I don't pick or cause fights. IF I get into something on the street it is because someone is attacking me-- could be a drunk, a thief, whatever .... in that case I'm going home in as healthy a state as possible. I have no problem using a weapon.

Four-inch folding knives are also legal in many states.

[PangQuan]

everyone can be overpowered by another person.

everyone.

thats what weapons are for. to cancell physical oppresion by means of deadly retaliation using tools made by man for such an instance.

[Su Lin]

:shudder

Oh, well. I guess things are not the same now. When I first started taking MA over 20 years ago, it was about fighting and self defense.

Now I guess some people go for other reasons. No wonder it's so hard to find decent training these days.


I didn't meant that I don't go to fight, of course I go to fight, I love it. However, I don't go with the prime interest of being able to fight off someone, ie someone trying to attack me in the street.
My training is excellent , and my teacher is great with me, as a woman.
Surely it is different thinking about fending off an attacker in the street as in class?

[neilhytholt]

I didn't meant that I don't go to fight, of course I go to fight, I love it. However, I don't go with the prime interest of being able to fight off someone, ie someone trying to attack me in the street.
My training is excellent , and my teacher is great with me, as a woman.
Surely it is different thinking about fending off an attacker in the street as in class?

Guess it just depends upon your priorities. I was under the impression that people went to martial arts class to learn to fight for self defense, which is attacks on the street, but I guess not.

[Ray Pina]

I don't know about that. I enjoy figthing, I like to compete in fighting but it would seem stressful and unhealthy to walk into every class with the mindset that I need to fend for my life.

None of us are training to be assasins. First and foremost it should be fun.

For me, it's something I started as a kid and something I just kind of understand so now as I get older I see it might be "the thing" for me so I want to see how far I can go with it for myself.

More times than anything I aproach my master with scenarios that will occur in sport, against a MMA .... how to defend against good clinching, good locking, etc. I don't think most street fighters are that sophisticated. Doesn't mean they're not that dangerous. In fact, they're wildness makes them more so.

But in the end, I think most people, "Just like it." However, I do think the if one is pursuing martial arts they should pursue it with truth.

[Su Lin]

I suppose it depends where you live/where you come from? I havent really got my head around the whole potentially being attacked thing. Where Im from , I just learned never to go out on my own at night/go in dodgy places, so have never really thought about MA from that angle.
But when it comes to fighting other martial artists, that's fun!
Kinda wish more women trained , I'm the lone female in our club .We have had a few turn up but they have never stuck at it enough, and some have had a tendency to giggle all the way through the lesson, which was particularly annoying.:mad:

[neilhytholt]

I suppose it depends where you live/where you come from? I havent really got my head around the whole potentially being attacked thing. Where Im from , I just learned never to go out on my own at night/go in dodgy places, so have never really thought about MA from that angle.
But when it comes to fighting other martial artists, that's fun!
Kinda wish more women trained , I'm the lone female in our club .We have had a few turn up but they have never stuck at it enough, and some have had a tendency to giggle all the way through the lesson, which was particularly annoying.:mad:

Most students, most women in particular, drop within 3 months. I have no idea why for them. But I've dropped a lot of places in that timeframe just because I didn't like the instructor or the style.

Hate to say it, but you can usually tell the more realistic and harder places by the fact that there aren't a lot of women around.

Most women for some reason aren't really very interested in real fighting. Which is ironic because they're the ones that get raped the most on the street.

[Ray Pina]

Most women for some reason aren't really very interested in real fighting. Which is ironic because they're the ones that get raped the most on the street.

In their defense, most martial artists aren't interested in real fighting. Which is ironic, because they're the ones participating in a martial art.

If you want to get a slight idea of how a women could feel training with a man enter a full contact ring fight two to three weight classes above your natural weight. Then come back and tell us how excited you are to go do it again.

[neilhytholt]

In their defense, most martial artists aren't interested in real fighting. Which is ironic, because they're the ones participating in a martial art.

If you want to get a slight idea of how a women could feel training with a man enter a full contact ring fight two to three weight classes above your natural weight. Then come back and tell us how excited you are to go do it again.

Yeah, I've fought guys much bigger than me in full contact. It's extremely difficult and brutal. Extreme ouchies.

That makes sense. Maybe after they try that they get discouraged and give up.

[Su Lin]

Yeah, I've fought guys much bigger than me in full contact. It's extremely difficult and brutal. Extreme ouchies.

That makes sense. Maybe after they try that they get discouraged and give up.

It is really intimidating fighting men, especially quite big ones as we have in our class. I was scared at first, but determined to become better. It's interesting in that I try and use speed to get in and out,either with a kick or punch, rather than brute force. I think it's a case of using your particular strengths,whether male or female.
I think I was lucky in that my boyfriend started at the same time as I did, but going along to a class full of men can be scary I imagine.
Never tried full contact, not sure I fancy that against men.
The women I fought in a couple of tournaments were pretty brutal (mainly kick boxers) , and it is really different fighting against women than it is with men. Not sure which I prefer yet.

[neilhytholt]

It is really intimidating fighting men, especially quite big ones as we have in our class. I was scared at first, but determined to become better. It's interesting in that I try and use speed to get in and out,either with a kick or punch, rather than brute force. I think it's a case of using your particular strengths,whether male or female.
I think I was lucky in that my boyfriend started at the same time as I did, but going along to a class full of men can be scary I imagine.
Never tried full contact, not sure I fancy that against men.
The women I fought in a couple of tournaments were pretty brutal (mainly kick boxers) , and it is really different fighting against women than it is with men. Not sure which I prefer yet.

The thing is, really fighting a guy is not at all the same as sparring or point sparring, or fighting in tournaments.

Sparring you get in, get out, exchange some blows. Point sparring, you get in, get out, get some points (doesn't mean it's hard, just means it's a point). Fighting in tournaments continuous contact kind of thing, still you're not really trying to take each other's heads off.

Fighting somebody who is really trying to take your head off is not at all the same. It is just so much harder and so much brutal that you can't really prepare for it.

If it never happens to you, then you'll never really know.

[Shadow Skill]

The truth is that a lot of women lack the heart and drive to push themselves to greatness . Only a few women are willing to break a nail and scrap. This doesn't mean that women can't do kung fu and be good at it. It all depends on how they are trained. in class make them practice as if it was a real fight. My little sister used to train w/ me. she's 8 years younger than me. When we used to work I never took it easy on her. She just graduated high school and has beat up a few guys at school. she said "when he punched at me it was like we were play fighting, they can't punch hard enough or fast enough to hurt me". And the women in class are treated simular to the men. when you look at it how often do women fight skilled martial artists? women usually fight men who want to rape them, beat them because dinner wasn't on the table when he got home are simply becsuse he's a B!TCH. so if you teach a women and takes pride in what she is learning he chances of surviving an encounter like this greatly increase.

The fact of the matter is training w/ someone less skilled as you will only improve your ability to teach. Personly I hate working w/ anyone less skilled than me. because I dont get better. On the other hand I like making pthers step it up. because there skill is a reflection of not just my Sifu but my entire system.

[PangQuan]

one of my favorite sayings, from an old fu' flick.

"kung fu doesnt mean you can fight, kung fu means you live in pain"

real training hurts. constantly. at least for the first many years it will. through what i like to call the "infant" and "adolecent" stages of martial arts training.

as an anology your basically learning to walk and talk, and you will put your hand in the fire and you will get burned.

if you want real skill, you will pay for it in sweat and blood.

This is what deturs alot of women from martial arts practice. we dont have one serious female student at our school. the only one we had tore her acl and now is waiting to come back and train.

its been my experience that when a woman does well in a bout against a man, be it sparring, fighting or drills, its because she has correct technique. where as men can rely often on force and muscle. usually a woman cannot.

like a child they must have proper form in technique to be effective against a larger stronger opponent.

ma chicks rule :D

[Su Lin]

I don't like training with people who aren't putting 100% in.Its a shame to see people turning up and not really improving due to not putting in what's needed.
I'm really lucky in that generally Im treated no differently, try my best and am repsected by the men in the class for that. I think women are generally put off by the fighting ,which is a shame because there is so much more to kung fu than that.
You get out of martial arts exactly what you put into it!
I think generally fighting isn't something that attracts women, that's just a fact of life. I love it though and don't really ever think about being a woman when in class.

[neilhytholt]

I don't like training with people who aren't putting 100% in.Its a shame to see people turning up and not really improving due to not putting in what's needed.
I'm really lucky in that generally Im treated no differently, try my best and am repsected by the men in the class for that. I think women are generally put off by the fighting ,which is a shame because there is so much more to kung fu than that.
You get out of martial arts exactly what you put into it!
I think generally fighting isn't something that attracts women, that's just a fact of life. I love it though and don't really ever think about being a woman when in class.

Well I don't think I really blame the women. I mean, putting in that much time and pain for something like martial arts isn't exactly all that useful.

People who tear stuff and injure themselves IMHO that's a real tragedy. I don't think that's necessary. That usually happens when they aren't coordinated and mess up. Some injuries will happen, but a lot of injuries are unnecessary and are due to bad training practices.

[PangQuan]

marry me :p

[PangQuan]

Well I don't think I really blame the women. I mean, putting in that much time and pain for something like martial arts isn't exactly all that useful.

People who tear stuff and injure themselves IMHO that's a real tragedy. I don't think that's necessary. That usually happens when they aren't coordinated and mess up. Some injuries will happen, but a lot of injuries are unnecessary and are due to bad training practices.

true that.

we were all sad when the only dedicated female got injured.

we were practicing our flying sidekicks on the heavy bag, and something happend when she landed. snap. so sad.

but she is expected to have a full recovery, and will be back to training soon.

now THAT is a hard core chick.

[Su Lin]

I'm afraid you will have to fight over me!:rolleyes:

[Su Lin]

Just had 2 1/2months off myself for a back injury, that was painful but not entirely sure how I did it! Ouch, don't fancy anything snapping, but thats the price we all pay!

[neilhytholt]

true that.

we were all sad when the only dedicated female got injured.

we were practicing our flying sidekicks on the heavy bag, and something happend when she landed. snap. so sad.

but she is expected to have a full recovery, and will be back to training soon.

now THAT is a hard core chick.

Flying sidekicks? That's just asking for trouble.

A lot of those moves that are acrobatic these days aren't useful and just get you hurt.

[neilhytholt]

Just had 2 1/2months off myself for a back injury, that was painful but not entirely sure how I did it! Ouch, don't fancy anything snapping, but thats the price we all pay!

No, that's not the price you pay. If you're getting injuries like that you're doing it wrong is the bottom line.

[Ray Pina]

"kung fu doesnt mean you can fight, kung fu means you live in pain"

real training hurts. constantly. at least for the first many years it will.


I don't a gree with this. It doesn't have to be this way. In fact, I think there is a direct correlation with schools who force their students to hold low painful stances, perform forms in a real low stance, do a lot of warm up excercises and go crazy on bags and martial ineficiency.

Conditioning can be done at home. I go to my school to learn, that requires more brain than brawn. Coordinate movements= how to do.... not just throw punches as hard and fast as you can as many times as you can until you exhaust.

First comes raw materials (proper power source)
Then structure
Then design (style/technique)
Then when your building is complete you hire a handy man to maintain it (conditioning)


To hire a handy man when the building is not done is waistful.

[neilhytholt]

I don't a gree with this. It doesn't have to be this way. In fact, I think there is a direct correlation with schools who force their students to hold low painful stances, perform forms in a real low stance, do a lot of warm up excercises and go crazy on bags and martial ineficiency.


A lot of modern schools don't do traditional modern arts. Most of those fancy moves, high kicks, flips, etc., were from northern Chinese long fist, and people did them after a lot of training usually starting from the time they were kids.

Flying sidekicks are basically useless, not to mention dangerous. It puts your hips in an extremely bad position, and leaves you very vulnerable to takedown.

A lot of people try to force stretching, and get injured that way, or try to do stances too low before they're ready, or high kicks before they're ready.

Most of this is due to very stupid instructors. For example, I once went to a bagua class where the instructor was absent the first day because of a family emergency. So his junior student took over and had us doing single palm, completely stretched in towards the center, low basin, which is difficult.

He had 50 and 60 year old women doing this, and after class, they were complaining of pain. !!!

If you are finding you are getting injured a lot in your school, or a lot of people are getting injured, they're not doing it right.

[neilhytholt]

Anyways, since we're talking about martial injuries now, I'll leave you with a funny story, and then I think I need to stop posting for a while.

From talking with my family, the only reason that I am here today is because of war injuries.

During the Civil War, my great-great grandfather was a Cherokee scout. He was run over by a horse, totally messed up his back and shoulder, so he was convalescing when his entire unit got taken out by the North.

Then, during the Spanish-American war, his son, my great-grandfather, was a scout as well, and he got thrown from his horse during training exercises, was convalescing and while he was out, his entire unit got taken out.

Then, my Grandfather (Finnish) was serving during WWII on a destroyer, got almost washed overboard by a wave, almost got his arm torn off, so he was assigned to desk duty running a military prison where he met my grandmother.

A few months after he had his accident, his destroyer was sunk in the North Atlantic by U-Boats. Everybody died, no survivors.

Then my dad volunteered in the Army and messed up his shoulder somehow by carrying his pack on one arm, severely limiting his mobility, so he got assigned to doing equipment requisitions and stuff. His entire unit got wiped out in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive.

So if it weren't for war injuries, I wouldn't be here. LOL

[Su Lin]

My word, that fate is a funny old thing!
My back injury actually came form cycling (with bad posture!) rather than from kung fu. But I certainly would worry if people in my class kept getting injured all the time.
:D Must also stop posting, as it's a lovely day and must train to catch up on what I have missed!

[PangQuan]

flying side kicks are fun. i enjoy them. probably would never use one in a fight, but i enjoy them. its just something that alot of people learn. im one of those people. on a side note though, if i were to hit a human with a flying side kick, say from behind or as a sneak attack, hes going down and hard. ok, start attacking this comment now. i know you want to, your teeth are grinding, i can hear it.

but its ok if you guys dont like them, or want to talk bad about it. :p

as far as the reference to pain, its not so much injuries im talking about, but the constant soreness you get from working out alot. same as soccer, weightlifting, football, and pretty much any other high impact physical endeavor. this is the pain im talking about, and its a good pain. i like it too.

i rarely get injured, the only time i get injured is in a match, and usually not too bad. the worst i have ever taken were 2 broken ribs.

i dont get hurt in basic training.

[BoulderDawg]

I usually get a bruise or two everytime I spar. It's just the nature of the game.

However I think we lose a lot of people because of it. Of course everyone at the school is free to chose whether or not he/she would like to spar but (yeah I know it's a guy thing:D )many feel they are forced to do so.

[crimsonghost]

A martial artist is
Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.
Alert, like men aware of danger.
Courteous, like visiting guests.
Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.
Hollow, like caves.
Opaque, like muddy pools.
Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?
Who can remain still until the moment of action?

[GeneChing]

When I plugged 'defense' in our forum search, this is what popped up. It's a random place to post this, but this China News photo essay is so random that it kind of fits.

And it's such a special photo essay. Srsly. I live for these kinds of posts here. :D


Shaolin monks boost rescuers self-defense skills (http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0427/c90782-9050296.html)
(Chinanews.com) 10:25, April 27, 2016

http://www.people.com.cn/mediafile/pic/GQ/20160427/10/16714506585052535906.jpg
http://www.people.com.cn/mediafile/pic/GQ/20160427/20/9004450209812178168.jpg
http://www.people.com.cn/mediafile/pic/GQ/20160427/9/3512503092547650389.jpg
http://www.people.com.cn/mediafile/pic/GQ/20160427/60/2900575573846507752.jpg
http://www.people.com.cn/mediafile/pic/GQ/20160427/36/16953644269344442108.jpg
http://www.people.com.cn/mediafile/pic/GQ/20160427/5/6246532621152849665.jpg

Shaolin kung fu monks teach members of the White Swan Rafting Rescue Team working at the Yuxi Gorge in Central China's Henan province, April 25, 2016. Monks shared skills that the members can use to protect themselves from harassment. [Photo/China News Service]

The coolest Shaolin monk rocks a White Swan Rafting Rescue Team T-shirt.

[GeneChing]

Clearly I have been practicing Tai Chi incorrectly. I should be surrounded by hotties in a beautiful setting, not by myself in the suburbs. :o


Tai Chi master leads lake performance (http://www.ecns.cn/visual/hd/2016/04-27/92904.shtml)
2016-04-27 16:19Ecns.cn Editor:Yao Lan

http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/2408d1430c44480380483245bd46f023.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/2855f65496c64cb0ad542431660564b1.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/5f94373857ed4e6a871054ee22597537.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/0276d6a3458d48108010f99bf5cfba23.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/4d4af194b13c45029dbfb153233ad088.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/2179f99204a14ff0ad0527187cd376b4.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/c014cbbbfd1a49d5beaf267427bd8a26.jpg
http://www.ecns.cn/hd/2016/04/27/031e69783705431b8e570f744e271d7a.jpg

Wu Jianhua (in black), a master of Chen-style Tai Chi, leads a show with other practitioners at Shiyan Lake in Changsha City, capital of Central China’s Hunan Province, April 27, 2016. (Photo: China News Service/Yang Huafeng)

[GeneChing]

What the heck is going on today? These two posts above appeared on my newsfeed this morning, both photo essays from ecns. I've copied them from their respective thread - Info on Wudang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?62509-Info-on-Wudang&p=1293233#post1293233) & The Shaolin Defense (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?60962-The-Shaolin-Defense&p=1293228#post1293228)

Man, I hope this is trend. :D

I should state that I LUV training with women. In fact, I'd prefer it if all my classmates were women, in skimpy outfits like what Shaolin has going on with the White Swan.

[SteveLau]

Travelsbyknight,

I have only read the first post, and not the rest. It's surely an interesting topic. Not every student should be trained the same, no matter what is the gender, age, and martial art experience. The instructor should have his student requirements to begin with. If a student is confirmed to be not suitable training material to begin with or somewhere during the course of training, then he / she should be let go.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Cataphract]

Female teenagers are much easier to train than boys from my experience. Girls are at least twice as fast to pick up new techniques because they are concentrated and don't waste half as much time on their egos. Then there are some women who somehow enjoy hanging around training halls and don't seem to have real business. :D

[GeneChing]

This thread is officially hijacked.


Beauty and master: Bikini-clad sports graduates combat Shaolin monks to become rafting lifesavers in China (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/peoplesdaily/article-3650711/Beauty-master-Bikini-clad-sports-graduates-combat-Shaolin-monks-rafting-lifesavers-China.html)

Gulongxia Rafting in southern China has established a team of bikini-clad lifeguards to ensure visitors' safety
Candidates must learn martial art skills from Shaolin masters in a week-long training before being recruited
Once hired, the sexy lifesavers will also work as personal companions to help solo tourists enjoy rafting

By TRACY YOU FOR MAILONLINE
PUBLISHED: 09:52 EST, 20 June 2016 | UPDATED: 10:18 EST, 20 June 2016

A Chinese rafting attraction has established a team of bikini-clad lifeguards to ensure the safety of its visitors and accompany solo tourists to enjoy the water sport.

To become a member of the 'Goddess Lifesavers' at Gulongxia Rafting in southern China, candidates must wear bikinis and combat kung fu masters before being recruited.

Pictures emerged from the media showed a team of keen applicants practising martial arts skills with monks from China's famous Shaolin Temple on June 17 at the attraction in Guangdong Province, reported the People's Daily Online.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/20/15/3579C80700000578-3650711-image-m-36_1466433264128.jpg
High kicks: A female applicant sharpened skills with a Shaolin master during a training session to become a rafting lifeguard in China

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/20/15/3579C69600000578-3650711-image-m-37_1466433276079.jpg
Total concentration: More than 30 lifesaver candidates attended the training at Gulongxia Rafting in southern China on June 17

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/20/15/3579C68F00000578-3650711-image-m-39_1466433297054.jpg
All for life-saving: They must learn water wrestling and learn two kung fu styles before the company would consider hiring them

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/20/15/3579C83000000578-3650711-image-m-40_1466433306865.jpg
Flying fists: Most of the candidates, who will wear bikini while working, are graduates of sports colleges and have toned six-pack bodies