Regarding fujow's video post

[Fu-Pow]

Overall I thought you did a nice job. I can tell that your Sifu is Tat Mau Wong . He tends to do things in a more stacatto and stiffer manner than some. I would recommend that you soften a little bit and look for the circles within the movement that will allow you to connect movements into a smoother flow. It doesn't make for as dramatic of a performance but it means that you are using better body mechanics and fighting yourself less. Also keep your shoulders more relaxed by keeping your elbows down.

FP

[Havick01]

I think you did a very good job too, but remember to always keep your back strait and loosen you arms an relax.

[fu jow]

i love the idea of being more relaxed. i'll definetly start to think about that when im practicing.that reminds me, i saw "the tai chi master" lastnight and it reminded me of how much i like the way it flows. dont you ( fu pow) do tai chi also? i think some guys from the LKH school do too. if so, how does it affect ( if at all) your choy lay fut? id like to think it would help, and that i could eventually look into it.

[Havick01]

i love the idea of being more relaxed. i'll definetly start to think about that when im practicing.that reminds me, i saw "the tai chi master" lastnight and it reminded me of how much i like the way it flows. dont you ( fu pow) do tai chi also? i think some guys from the LKH school do too. if so, how does it affect ( if at all) your choy lay fut? id like to think it would help, and that i could eventually look into it.
I think tai chi is very good to learn but as far as helping your choy lay fut, no! Because its two very differnt systems. When you see a person that dose tai chi with there choy lay fut it dose not make the choy lay fut look good at all. But thats what i think. Choy lay fut is one of the few systems that is hard style as well as soft at the same time. But tai chi is a good system never the less.

[Fu-Pow]

Everything in Chinese martial arts revolves around the circle, nothing is straight even though it may appear straight. There are at least 2 circles in every movement for every joint in your body. When you can move in a circular way through every joint of your body then you have very good body mechanics. You get out of your own way and can relax. When you relax your movement will naturally become more circular.

Then you can use any part of your body to attack and defend....from your fist, knee, back, head, hip, ankle....from any point on the circle.

On the outside Choy Lay Fut and Taiji are different because CLF is primarily what I call a "crash and bash" style and Taiji is primarily a "stick and follow" style. CLF uses the power of the whip to destroy the bridge and where as Taiji is like a powerful wave that "floats" your opponent.

However, on the inside CLF is still all circles. In order to make a circle you must relax and in order to relax you must make it circle or spiral.

I agree with Havick01 that Taiji and CLF should not be practiced as if they are one art. They are distinct and different even though at the center they share a lot of similarity. However, I do think that Taiji can reveal alot about CLF because there is more focus on the movement of the hips, waist, abdomen, shoulders. You can bring that knowledge into your CLF and make it better.

Chan Family CLF has the Qi Gong sets which serve this purpose. Because we don't have them you might look to Taiji, Xing Yi or Ba Gua for that "internal" instruction.

Just my 2 cents.

FP

[chasincharpchui]

i neva understood the reason why tat mau wong lineage has their entire shin touchin the floor in kneeling stance

is it meant to look better?

[CLFNole]

I can't really tell for sure from his video but being from the Lee Koon Hung lineage our lau gwai ma looks like the shin may touch but it actually doesn't. I am not sure if Tat Mau Wong changed it for his students but sifu taught it without the shin touching.

[fu jow]

no touchey! it looks like it because the pants are on the floor. but the shins are not to touch the floor. that goes for the knee too. inside of foot (arch) and inside of ankle, yes. atleast when i personally do gwai ma.

[chasincharpchui]

no touchey! it looks like it because the pants are on the floor. but the shins are not to touch the floor. that goes for the knee too. inside of foot (arch) and inside of ankle, yes. atleast when i personally do gwai ma.

so does the inside of ur ankle touch the floor

coz it certainly looks like it, are u still resting ur foot on toes or ankle?

well ive learnt some hung sing clf off LKH students in hong kong, and its very different to wat i was taught

[fu jow]

no touchey! it looks like it because the pants are on the floor. but the shins are not to touch the floor. that goes for the knee too. inside of foot (arch) and inside of ankle, yes. atleast when i personally do gwai ma.
um,..the inside of the ankle, yes. the inside of of the foot, yes. the shin? no...........garsh...ive never been to hong kong... . .

[chasincharpchui]

so inside of foot and ankle but not the knee?

[fu jow]

no touchey! it looks like it because the pants are on the floor. but the shins are not to touch the floor. that goes for the knee too. inside of foot (arch) and inside of ankle, yes. atleast when i personally do gwai ma.
not,.. the knee.

[chasincharpchui]

not,.. the knee.

okay

so my question is why do u guys use the inside of the ankle and foot touchin the floor, practicality?, looks good? dont know?

coz other branches are on toes

[Lama Pai Sifu]

You can all argue with me until you are blue in the face;

NO ANKLE, INSIDE FOOT or SHIN TOUCHING THE FLOOR. TOES AND BALL OF FOOT ON THE FLOOR, HEEL UP. FEET SHOULDER WIDTH APART AND NOT MORE THAN AROUND 12" FROM TOE - HEEL (FOR ME, ABOUT 6' TALL)

NO TOUCHING, NO WAY, NO HOW.

If you were taught this, I am telling you that it is not correct. This is not one of those things that can be 'taught different ways'. It's not variation. It's wrong if you do that!

If this ****es any of you off, tell your teachers that I said so, give them my number (get it off my website) if you want and tell them that Chan Tai-San had said it was wrong as well.

I've been teaching CLF for 17 years. I've obvioulsy been training in it for longer. I have seen many techniques 'changed' over the years by many schools, in order to help facilite the students learning. I can understand that. Sometimes, the Sifu forgets to put things back the right way, or just figures "no big deal", and for the most part, it probably isn't a big deal.

I can accept a lot of varaitions; lot's of schools do the same move differently. Sometimes I can accept the variation and chalk it up to a 'different flavor' or 'stylistic' difference. But in this case, NO.

And what's worse is, I see more and more schools doing it.

Argue away. It would take too much writing, probably easier if I shot 3 minutes of video, to explain why TOUCHING is wrong in this stance.

No just to clarify; There are times we would touch the shin to the floor in KF. We do do it, however, it is not the same stance. It may look like it, but in Dai-Sing Pek-Gwa, we do it for a totally different reason, it's not Lok Gwaii Ma, an in our ground fighting stuff we do it to, but again, not the same stance.

[Eddie]

Could you maybe link a photo of how you do loq gwai ma? Do you mean the same way as they would do it in say the nanquan form? almost like a lunge?

[chasincharpchui]

Could you maybe link a photo of how you do loq gwai ma? Do you mean the same way as they would do it in say the nanquan form? almost like a lunge?

lol eddie no wushu in here dude

go to the wushu forum hahaha

jk:p

[Eddie]

hey im being sincere. not sure how other schools may do that stance :cool:

just a bit of a side note.... you should hang around wushu tournaments more often... chicks are cute ;)

[fu jow]

that is how i personally do that stance. could i be doing it wrong? IMPOSSIBLE!!!

[Havick01]

You can all argue with me until you are blue in the face;

NO ANKLE, INSIDE FOOT or SHIN TOUCHING THE FLOOR. TOES AND BALL OF FOOT ON THE FLOOR, HEEL UP. FEET SHOULDER WIDTH APART AND NOT MORE THAN AROUND 12" FROM TOE - HEEL (FOR ME, ABOUT 6' TALL)

NO TOUCHING, NO WAY, NO HOW.

If you were taught this, I am telling you that it is not correct. This is not one of those things that can be 'taught different ways'. It's not variation. It's wrong if you do that!

If this ****es any of you off, tell your teachers that I said so, give them my number (get it off my website) if you want and tell them that Chan Tai-San had said it was wrong as well.

I've been teaching CLF for 17 years. I've obvioulsy been training in it for longer. I have seen many techniques 'changed' over the years by many schools, in order to help facilite the students learning. I can understand that. Sometimes, the Sifu forgets to put things back the right way, or just figures "no big deal", and for the most part, it probably isn't a big deal.

I can accept a lot of varaitions; lot's of schools do the same move differently. Sometimes I can accept the variation and chalk it up to a 'different flavor' or 'stylistic' difference. But in this case, NO.

And what's worse is, I see more and more schools doing it.

Argue away. It would take too much writing, probably easier if I shot 3 minutes of video, to explain why TOUCHING is wrong in this stance.

No just to clarify; There are times we would touch the shin to the floor in KF. We do do it, however, it is not the same stance. It may look like it, but in Dai-Sing Pek-Gwa, we do it for a totally different reason, it's not Lok Gwaii Ma, an in our ground fighting stuff we do it to, but again, not the same stance.
Lama pai is right alot of teachers change things in choy lay fut that should not be changed. I can understand it for the sake students learning, But when you change core parts of the style then you cross the line;)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

fu jow

that is how i personally do that stance. could i be doing it wrong? IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Fu Jow, good for you, for putting video of yourself online. Most people don't have the guts to put themselves out there for public scrutiny. More people should be like you.

That being said, that stance, is the biggest mistake you make in the form. It has no form or structure. People started doing that stance, putting the knee or foot/ankle on the floor, because teachers couldn't/wouldn't take the time to show them the right way. (My opinion, obviously)

Either way, whatever the reason for the degeneration of the stance, it's not really relevant. What is relevant, is, it's not correct. Try showing it to a sports and excercise physiologist, and see what they think. They will tell you it's out of alignment and has no supporting structure.

Also, you are grounding you hip when you put 3 pts of contact to the ground. The stance translates to 'tuning over', not 'dropping down'. The power from any strike in this stance comes from the waist and the turning of the leg/hip/thigh. You can't very well 'turn it over' when you drop onto the ground.

Nuff said. If I get the chance to do a minute or two of video, I will. Maybe in a few days.

[yutyeesam]

Thank you LPS for this confirmation. I never liked the way we did this stance and when I'd talk to other CLF folks from different lineages, they too said it is an incorrect stance.

The interesting thing is that I think it is easier to teach the "correct" version of Lok Quei Ma than to teach the "side of the foot" version, actually.

Look forward to the video.

-123

[Eddie]

are you saying a whole line of schools are doing the stance wrong?

the punching part makes sense

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I'm not saying anything about any line.

I am simply stating that I believe, and I was taught, that this stance was done a certain way. That is all.

I believe that the way it is done in the video was wrong. My Sifu did CLF since he was 13 years old. He died at 85. He learned from some great teachers. Many different lines. When he saw CLF performed here, he said that he could not believe how people did the stance like that. None of his teachers taught him that way.

I'm not trying to make any waves. Just telling everyone that it is wrong to do it that way. Challenge me on this if you like, I mean no disrespect to anyone. I'm not trying to say that this or that teacher is bad. Just that this stance is being done wrong here. That is all.

I challenge anyone to explain WHY they would do it with their ankle/foot/shin/knee on the ground. I have given a simple explanation as to why NOT to do it. There are many more reasons as well.

[TenTigers]

when we do lok gwaai ma, we form an imaginary triangle on the ground. Your feet on the points of the base, and your knee over the top point in the center-obviously not touching, When I teach this, I actually use masking tape on the floor.
Masking tape is one of the best teaching aids I have found. It can be used to teach stances, stepping,distance, you name it. It is especially good to keep the little students quiet, and peels off their little faces so much easier than duct tape.;)

[CLFNole]

This is how the LKH lineage does it. If you don't great I could care less. I have played with it both ways and it makes no difference in application. But since Chan Tai San it was wrong maybe I should have all my hing dai change it. ;)

[Eddie]

Lama pai sifu,
I didn’t argue with you. Was probably trying to keep myself out of this one, and my questions had no negative undertone. I apologise if it seemed this way. In all honesty, I have also been wondering about this stance, specially since im taller and heavier than most. I have had some issues with my knees before, and as my mother, grandmother and a few uncles already had to have knee replacement opps, I’ve been more than careful with that. I also suffer from arthritis and joint pains, although I have learned how to deal with that.

I get nervous when people start using the words ‘challenge’ in a kung fu conversation ;) . Specially when it’s a CLF guy on kungfumagazine forums. Geepers! :eek: We don’t always have to agree, but we could respect each other when we disagree. Actually, respecting people is an easy thing to do. :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

CLF Nole

You should 'do' whatever you want. I don't recall telling you to 'do' anything.

I have commented on a movement in a form. If you don't like hearing comments regarding a technique that is from your style/line, etc., then don't read the forums.
:)

To everyone;

Additionally, why do people find it necessary to tell others that they 'could care less' about something? If you actually don't care about something, you wouldn't feel the need to tell everyone now, would you?

CLF Nole Writes:

This is how the LKH lineage does it. If you don't great I could care less. I have played with it both ways and it makes no difference in application. But since Chan Tai San it was wrong maybe I should have all my hing dai change it.

Don't feel sad because I said the tech was wrong. Martial Artists have to challenge what they are taught (does not mean be disrespectful to your Sifu) and search for the truth themselves. Isn't MA about truth? What is real? What works?

Do you think every Sifu is correct? Does anyone? Of course not. So if you subscribe to that logic, hypothetically, couldn't YOUR Sifu be one of the ones that are wrong? (But we've been doing it for so long, how could it?) I have news, it could be, and can be.

Quote me:

The stance is clearly unstable, your knee is dangerously close to the ground and you cannot generate real power from it. But everyone has been doing it so long, a certain way in a certain line, they think they are admitting a weakness by saying they are/were 'wrong'. Because if we were wrong about that, what else could be wrong? EXACTLY. ALWAYS QUESTION WHAT YOU LEARN. INVESTIGATE, SEARCH, EXPERIMENT. That is exactly how TCMA has evolved.

In my training, when I found out I was doing something wrong, I LEARNED HOW TO DO IT RIGHT. Aren't we supposed to be happy when we are corrected? Isn't ever correction bringing us one step closer to that elusive 'higher level'? Welcome criticizm, welcome corrections. Since most people on the forum are students and not teachers, maybe expecting corrections from here is a bad idea. Be thankful however, not bitter.

It's so funny. No one ever studies with a low-level disciple of a famous teacher. No one ever studies with a teacher who is not that good..just so so. Everyone on these forums studies with the best teacher ever, learns the most purest version of his/her style and thier school/style is superior to others. (Pick whatever one applies to you) How did everyone get so lucky? :confused: :) :o

OH, and EDDIE: I said for people to 'challenge' my opinion. I wasn't challenging people to fights...
And I did not interpret any bad intentions from your post, ...no worries mate!

[CLFNole]

Lama:

My point is this why is it that you are right and we are wrong. Can you go two different ways to get to the same place?

The technique is generally use to come in underneath an attack or kind of a squating side step and block (i.e. bei fu choy). The most important point is that the legs are not spread to wide so you can move from the stance quickly. In actuality you want to squat and move. Whether it is the ball of your foot or the arch of your foot it doesn't matter as long as the stance is generally square and you can move out of it quickly. The drive if say doing a lau chop in lau kwai ma would come from the initial lunge not the end resulting stance.

Whether you or your sifu see it as wrong is not the point. As long as it works nothing is wrong. This stance is seen throughout our lineage all the way down from Poon Dik, who was quite famous in Kwantung. But famous or not, if the technique or stance can be used is most important.

My issue was how you come on saying "IF YOU DO IT LIKE THIS YOU ARE WRONG", I mean really who isn't going to laugh at this first off and get insulted if this is how you do it. You or I aren't exactly the end all when it comes to CLF.

[Mano Mano]

I was taught two versions of lok gwaai ma the version as described by lama pai sifu
Used for it mobility striking low then striking high fast. The other version is where the toes, ball of the foot & knee of the same leg are touching the floor like a tripod we used this one primarily staying low for when you’re staying low to bring some one down by attacking the stance with you hand strikes

As seen in the Pak sing demo
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=94056851902076883 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=94056851902076883)
Jason who does the Sup Ji form does do the stance wrong for sifu Ng’s school, put his foot/shin on the floor. A better example of what I mean about the two versions of lok gwaai ma can be seen in the double dagger form.

[CLFNole]

Mano Mano (I think you are AlecM):

I am not saying what we do is right or wrong just that there are different ways to do things. Look at the sow choy it looks different from school to school and sometimes even within the same lineage.

To say emphatically ... "THIS IS WRONG" is just a bit silly. Nothing is wrong if it works.

[hskwarrior]

Don't worry, I'm not on here for long. Don't want to be anymore. I feel so much more peaceful since I've been gone, been working things out with DFW and running my classes. So no worries folks.

But the one thing about the kneel horse is that everyone does it different. Some like the one with the shin and ankle on the floor. For "ME" I prefer the halfway point for that horse. The way we do it is from say ping ma is turn the waist lift the heel and find that middle ground. I don't like (not saying it's wrong-just don't like it) it because with your leg so flush to the ground it won't take much to stomp down on it, and I feel it would leave you in a more vulnerable position.

Although, I do see some advantages. Doing that horse seems similar to mma shooting in to grab hold and the back leg kinda drags on the floor. it would also provide you with a better chance to get under someone.

But as a street fighter, that leg being so damm close to the floor is so inviting for a leg stomp.

But I don't think anyone is wrong, as long as the have a rhyme and reason for doing it that way.

going to texas in 2 weeks, see some of you there at tai chi legacy.

peace.

[CLFNole]

Frank:

I see what you are saying about the leg being exposed; however whether you do it the way we do or with the ball of the foot the leg is more or less exposed the same way. I see this stance as more of a transition stance and not something you would want to stay in for any extended period of time when fighting.

Have fun in Texas your boy will be going so you can discuss this with him and he could show you what I mean.

[hskwarrior]

I understand what you mean as well.

Training with live blades that can sever a limb was a great way for me to sharpen my focus and attention during practice. The one thing that taught me was to eradicate the possibility for mistakes, and in a typical fast paced street fight, i think the horse I described is for close up to mid range fighting.

The one you describe I feel is great for keeping a distance. But to each his own, and hopefully each one has developed strengths in those certain horses.

So in retrospect, there's three different ways out there to execute this horse stance. A mid level kneel, a tripod type kneel, and the one with the complete lower leg parallel to the floor. Hmmmm. Interesting.

At least we have something to choose from huh?

peace.

[lkfmdc]

Just a casual observation, but is there any thread about Choy Lay Fut that doesn't have some sort of disagreement and ill feeling?

(Glad I only do Lama, so much easier, no one does it, nothing to argue about) :D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I think, CLF Nole, you are missing the point. I do not hold a patent on any KF information or techniques. I am not right or wrong, the technique is.

And as to your arguement, of; 'as long as it works', who is to say?

When did you use it in combat? Have you used it in sparring? Whom have you sparred against? Do you seem my point? How do you know it 'works?'

Additionally, use some common sense. If you were using it for real, in the street, and you quickly dropped down and hit your ankle or knee against the concrete, what do you think would happen? YOU WOULD INJURE YOURSELF.

If that isn't convicing in and of itself, take my previous advice. Ask a person who is an expert in human anatomy or excercise physiology; see what they tell you. Hell, ask a personal trainer for their opinion. Actually, ask a layman, ask someone who has no experience in the arts - it doesn't take an expert to see that you are putting you leg in an unusual position, one that looks like it's broken. Not to mention the uneven stress on the knee joint and tendons.

Take my advise, don't take my advise. My life will not change as a result. But if you can open your mind and accept the possiblity that I am right, ...maybe your life will change.

__________________________

And I agree that some techniques lend themselves to 'variations'. Even so, a Horse is a horse. Because you want to do it with your feet wider than your knees, and you want to say that it 'works', doesn't make it right.

How many ways can you throw a ping choih? (Horizontal/Level Fist) You can say there are many, but there is one.

[fu jow]

my only problem with this whole thread is this...ive been doing kung fu for all of 2 years. i dont pretend to do anything perfectly, in fact i do lots of things sloppily, too high, too low, too fast, too slow. but i love clf and learning it as an artform, and for excersize, and self defence ( if need be) . i also love seeing other peoples takes on the same style. but i dont know very much about it. yet. however, i have some life experience. enough atleast to know that telling someone who goes to an entirely different school, that the way he or she does a technique is simply wrong. (lets not even go into the audacity to say an entire lineage is wrong.) if (in your opinion ) there is a more effective way to excecute something, then feel free to share it. but to say that anything you do is the only/right way of doing something seems (to me) just a little bit outrageous. in fact, i think thats why i dont care for most right wing fundamentalist christians. because, lets face it, there really is more than one way to pray. as far as i know, people have been using the side of, and the top of their foot in gwai ma for longer than any of has even been alive. in fact, a good friend of mine goes to another well known clf masters school in this city, and his kung fu looks entirely different. i mean, i couldnt even recognize most of it. but i understand that its different. very good. and very different. i prefer our schools aestetic, and style. but not because we do it the right way.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

WOW, WOW.

Ok, so you're practicing for 2 years. If that's the case, why are you arguing at all? You should be 'listening'.

And although I can appreciate you offering examples that you think may shed a relevent light onto this discussion, I reject them.

Yes, I said it. I reject them.

Kung-Fu has many tech's that have variations, but there are also constants as well. There are certain things, that are not done 3 ways, but 1 way. Is that difficult for you to accept?

Train in your repected art for another 20 years, and then we can talk some more.

If any of you think I am being a jerk, it's not my intention. And I'm all for diplomacy; but if Chan Heung himself were here in the flesh, I'd tell him it was wrong and then I'd show him. Either he'd agree or he'd show me different. Until someone else can explain to me why THAT KNEELING STANCE is correct, and/or show me why it's correct, I'll stick with praticing and teaching it my way.

I can argue why it's wrong. Can you or anyone else argue why it's right?

[fu jow]

oh but i am listening. and im learning alot. in fact, all of your advice in regards to this stance was excellent. i even tried it different ways at school today. and finally, i think you should keep practicing and teaching it to your students, your way.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I'm okay with you thinking that! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't take things on this forum personally.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with Lama Pai Sifu. Putting your knee/shin/ankle on the ground is not a good way to do it. You put pressure on the outside of the knee joint which could lead to injury. It's bad body mechanics.

I've seen LKH do it before and I never understood why. I still don't.

Mak Sifu taught us two versions of Lok Gwai Mah, one is more square shaped like they play it in Hung Ga (I know because I learned the same version from my Hung Ga sifu). The feet are not on the same "line."

The other one has the feet in more of straight line and is used mostly for training but can also be used if you are overcoming a lot of forward momentum.

In neither case do we put anything but feet on the ground.

[hskwarrior]

fu jow,

the only way for you to improve is to critique your own video. All of us can only offer suggestions. Ultimately, your gung fu is yours, you move your way, or make it your way. don't become a carbon copy.

We can make suggestions all day.

you know what happens when you have too many cooks in the kitchen.

[hskwarrior]

Instead of fighting about whose way is the correct way, or even what way is the correct way, we should be comparing notes to why we like it the way we do it.

Each one of us is different, move different, like different aspects of gung fu. What might work for some may not work for others. This is why evolution and modification for self development (gung fu-wise) is so important.

Choy Lee Fut is ALWAYS gonna look different from school to school, including schools and it's sub-branches. Not everyone is built a certain way, so it's unfair to say that someone is doing a technique wrong without understanding the meaning behind what you think they are doing wrong.

The great thing about CLF is the diversity in applications, performance, concepts, and theories which goes back to the old saying....."it can take you three life times to master CLF."

peace.

[fu jow]

did i get rejected? ****it! honestly, all of the sweeps and kneeling, and chang fu business is hard on my body. it makes me feel old.:( but your right, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and just for the record, i totaly respect yours.

[fu jow]

well said hsk.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

LOL, no, Fu Jow, you didn't get rejected, I just said that I didn't think the comparison examples were relevent.

Keep on training and keep up the good work.

:) :) :)

[CLFNole]

The thing of it is neither the shin, knee or ankle touch the floor or ground. The only difference is some do it on the ball of the foot and we do it on the inner side (arch) of the foot. The leg is in the same position in both. I have seen it in my lineage with the legs way to wide and have been correcting students for the past month.

The difference is minimal and like I said before what is right to someone might not be right to the other. I have seen other lineages do it as well but they must also be wrong. Least we are not alone.

[chasincharpchui]

i think its juss safe to say

it does look better during performance

not that i do it lol

[Eddie]

im glad this topic came up, I was to chicken to bring it up myself :cool: .

some nice comments here. thanks

[Lama Pai Sifu]

It does seem like people are always trying to be diplomatic. What the big deal about there 'not' being 7 different ways to do a stance? Is there something wrong with their being one way to do a specific tech?

Everyone can agree that there is not a different way to do mathmatical addition? There is not a different way to do a backstroke in swimming, either. WHY then, does there have to be several ways to do EVERYTHING in MA?

I'm not talking slight variation. You can throw a jab a few different ways, with only the slightest of variation, but they are all within 1-3% deviation. Not 25-30% different.

Everyone just says "oh, they do it different, there must be many ways to do it."

Well, HOW does someone have to do it, in order for everyone to agree it's wrong?

See my point now?

[hskwarrior]

To have variations of a technique is the nature of the beast.

Lama, as a full time martial arts instructor of many commercial schools, you must always be changing your tactics in order to keep making money at what you do.

The same is for the martial arts period. It's called evolution. If we only had one method of usage on any techqnique then we turn stale, especially as the current generation of masters who intend to take our gung fu into the future decades. We must always move forward.

Lama, why is it wrong to have a few variations of one specific thing?

Personally, I don't want everyone knowing how I use this or that, because if someone is stalking me out there he would know what I would do. Element of surprise can be your savior.

it's ok to have different ways, it also shows you fully understand your gung fu because instead of only having ONE way, now you have a few ways, ways that might fit someone else. If you only had one way, that one way may not be sufficient for everyone. remember, we are not built the same, nor move the same.

that's why we need variations.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

truthfully,

in response to lama's comment about math and addition............

I can add 1+1=2, 1 Some people do this in their head, on paper,
+ 1 calculators, and so forth.
--------
2

regardless of how to get to the results, as long as the results are the same then there's no problem.

there's no problem at all with having the knowledge of many variations, period.

Maybe Lama doesn't appreciate them, but I'm sure others will.

peace.

[TenTigers]

there are actually two different backstrokes in swimming;the standard backstroke, which is like the American Crawl on your back, and the Elementary Backstroke, which is similar to the Breast stroke on your back.
There are also several types of jabs. Mohammed Ali used a jab from a lower chamber when he was outside of danger zone. This jab raised the elbow. He also threw one that was closer to a backfist. Many boxers jabs are quick peppering jabs, and also raise elbow and shoulder. Jack Dempsey emphasized the straight jolt and drop step lead jab, which was actually jik chung choy-elbow down. striking with bottom three knuckles, quarter rotation, with the lead foot taking a half step, dropping the weight down and forward, into the strike.
From my brief exposure to Buk Sing CLF, I have seen several different variations of charp choy.
I have learned at least five different ways to throw the roundhouse kick,several different sidekicks, about five front kicks.
I have seen people do bow stance several different ways as well, depending on the usage of the rear leg, knee, kwa, etc. One with the inside of the foot acting as a sort of wedge.
I can go on, but I got errands to do. You see my point, don't you?
Your method is simply but one method. The one you learned from your Sifu. His method may have been based on his personal beliefs on application based on his experience, his body type, structure, and the applications he was taught by his Sifu. The frog at the bottom of the well looks up and sees this one small circle of sky. By this, he forms his opinion about the entire outside world.
Just food for thought,

[CLFNole]

Lama:

You said it yourself "slight variations". You do it on the ball of your foot, I do it on the edge/arch of my foot. The leg is in the same position and I can move in and out of the stance as easy as someone on the ball of the foot.

This topic is pointless and should have never been brought up but you came out like Moses and the 10 Commandments or something so I responded.

Peace.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

First off I'd like to say that I'm fine with whatever way other people do their moves. If it works for them then great. Plus every style has their own version of common moves.

Personally I would not and do not do it as in the video. Too hard on the knee in my opinion.

However I would like to point out that IMHO the move isn't an incorrect kneeling stance but and incorrect (by my styles standards) half butterfly stance.

In Wah Lum the leg would not be left out there like that. It would be pulled in closer to the body and drop a bit lower. I've corrected quite a few students doing it like the video, especially beginners who tend to forget about feet when focusing on hands.

I think if he pulled it in a little more it would be fine. It's just extended a bit too much. Anyone doing it this way might want to consider whether the moves is supposed to be Gwai Ma or half Wu Dip Ma.

[Eddie]

its not really pointless? discussing techniques is never pointless. hearing other peoples opinions and their reasons for that, is worth it all. If you dont like it, dont read here.

But I do agree, LPS's post seemed a bit arrogant at first. but im not entirely sure thats how he really wanted it to seem. Maybe its just that american thing ;)

I wonder if we all just fight because that seems to be the natural thing to do. If its not over history then its over stances :cool: , next you will tell me Little Britain is NOT the funniest show on tv, and we'll have a huge arguement about that

but im also not attacking you CLFNole. I think you should know by now that i wont do that

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

Of course talking about a technique is not pointless. What I should have been more clear about is bickering about how a stance should or should not be done. If it is within your own lineage that is fine but to bicker about semantics between different lines will never go anywhere.

By the way I have thick skin so you can attack all you want :D

[Eddie]

i understand. but, we should maybe consider simple body mechanics, and i think this was what LPS tried to get at. the way we do it is fine, never bothered me until recently. When I was a younger, doing loc gwai ma was simple, but we get older and often heavier, hence me asking. Im still ok, Im generally fit, very healthy and have no serious issues, but other may not be.

Thick skin can be good, but honestly, its not my style to do that in the first place. BTW- Only 1 month exactly then I’ll be on my way over there. Will be in HK for the first week. Its been so cold this last few weeks over in Joburg, I cant wait to get some of that hot summer weather of yours :cool:

[CLFNole]

It will be nice to finally get to meet you. I think you will like the new school.

I should also say this after looking more closely at Fu Jow's video I agree that the way in the video is not the ideal way to do it and could lead to problems. It has been something I have had to fix with some students recently. The leg should not be so far out to the right. We do it more square with the leg closer in. The thing I was talking more or less about was the use of the ball of the foot or what we use in arch/edge of the foot. As long as the alignment of the hips and legs are correct you could use either without any problem.

[Sow Choy]

Hey guys...

Finally have some time to stop by... Too many threads to read, but this one was interesting...

With me I actually do loq kwai ma on the ball of the foot in most situations except 1... The one fu jow did going foward... We dart in, just like a jujitsu guy when shooting for the legs... so the back foot must slide, rather than a bow type stance where u need a grounded foot... I never touch my shin or ankle, that would hurt... But darting in is a sacrifice technique...

With the different styles of CLF I have seen, very few shoot in and cover such a large distance with this move... So when i do i slide on the arch or bottom of the foot so I can recover fast, rather that plant the ball of the foot...

If i am retreating or stepping side I use the ball... I agree with Lama, its easier on the body... But the CLF most of us do is for fighting and being quick...

FuJow, on your form: I just dont think you should bring your back foot up so muchin loq kwai ma lao jerng, I keep it in the same place as a bow stance, in the back to be lined up properly and not be exposed as much... You can also dart in for a leg shoot (takedown)...

I have seen people bring it to the side, I am guessing for more hip movement... But in a shoot, you wanna get in and out... or be able to move back form where orginated...

But I have seen many do this move different and many do it in a way that could damage the knee/ hip... especially done careless...

Peace...

Joe

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I guess I should rephrase:

Fu Jow: You right leg is too wide in the kneeling stance. Placing your arch and ankle on the ground is dangerous, as they can be damaged if they hit the ground and they offer no strength of support when trying to rise up again quickly.

Also, your right leg, being too wide, will offer you less stability than if you place it closer to your body, say...under shoulders. And, a simple understanding of body mechanics, not to mention physics, would tell you that it is unstable and puts uneccesary stress on the knee joint. Like I said before, as an excercise physiologist or a Physical therapist about it. They will most likey concur.

To Everyone here: I think we all agree that there can be variations of many if not most techniques. There is a certain level of acceptable difference, whereas the techniques would all be considered 'correct'.

But don't you agree, that there are WRONG ways to do things as well? You can't just do a technique, your own way, and then just proclaim it is correct. And I don't care how many people learned it a certain way or for how long. A technique can be incorrect if performed or taught WRONG!

Here's a great example; Cheng Man-Ching, the Tai Chi guy who came here many years ago, is resposible for 90+% of all the TC taught in America. I think he came here in the late 60's or early 70's. In the 80's, lot's of TC guys came from the mainland and beijing and were like WTF??? As it turns out, there is a right way to do TC, and CMC taught people in America WRONG.

Problem is, Who decides who is right? The other challenge is, people will fight about it all day, to avoid being WRONG. That is what this is all about here (and most places on the planet) EGO!!!

For the group that is supposed to be the most humble, MA people are the most egotistical! Ego gets in the way of people DISCOVERING or RESEARCHING what is right. Instead, they say.."Oh, this is my way, and that is your way." Again, yes....tech. has acceptable variation. But when do we say enough is enough? How DIFFERENT do I have to do a kneeling stance before someone shouts; "FOUL/WRONG".

There should come a time that a technique is wrong, which is really where this thread is right now. If my horse stance had my feet 1 foot further than my knees on each end, you can't possibly tell me that it's not 'wrong' and it's just my way of doing it. That stance would be wrong.

And, I don't want everyone to think I am arrogant, it's hard to disern a persons demeanor from a 'toneless' post. I just don't have a problem saying; "Yes, there are many variations that are acceptable of a kneeling stance, and THAT was/is not one of them."

Now, if I couldn't back it up, or refused to, then call me a jerk. However, I will show anyone why I think it's wrong, and I welcome anyone to dissagree or even prove me wrong! I would love to learn something new today. I already gave several reasons why I think it's wrong, but have yet to hear from anyone why they think it's right.

And saying you know other people who do it, or saw some old photo of some old CLF guy doing that way, isn't enough. Explain the physics of it, explain the application. The mechanics involved, etc.

And Joe, just because it look like he is shooting in, or that if you or I shoot, do it a bit like that; we all know that's not how he's using it in that form.

Whew!

[fu jow]

my right leg is very sore today. but anyway, bringing in my leg to the side is not how we do it at my school. its typically in a line behind you like sow choy was describing. i didnt realize that ive been (lately) bringing it over to my right. my teachers are always correcting things that i start carelessly changing. i have some injurys from my past, so i start cheating here and there. im glad you pointed that out though, the last thing i want to do is cause more injury.

[Sow Choy]

hello...

The technique I mentioned in FuJows form was taught to us in the form of 1st a block of a kick, then shoot in and hit the groin... So shooting in is how most of us perform that move... I personally play with the ranges of stepping or shooting when practicing...

I also agree that the back leg should not come up and be so wide... But the main thing I work on is shooting in, a good landing as not to stress my knee, and a quick recovery... I also do not allow my front leg's knee to pass over it's toes... another position I see that can be bad on the knees/ hips...

As far as right and wrong... I feel it as a waste of my time and energy to convince people of what I believe is right... just share what I know... I would rather everyone else be wrong anyway... hahaha... just a joke...

If everyone was right... there would be less winners.. and less students... ya know...? ;)

Also another thing about sliding on the foot that I dont like too... It ruins your shoes... and I do not like buying new shoes.. I want mine to last... I practice quite a bit outside... And use my sneakers while outside since my KF shoes wear out too fast...

Hope to see some of u in Dallas Chin Woo Taji Legacy... Also Eddie from SA is coming my way, so if anyone will be in Florida mid August send a shout...

Joe


Also...

People who are injured perform this stance differently, Sifu Li Siu Hung has injured his back while younger and does more of a kneeling stance to compensate...

[yutyeesam]

Lama:
If the stance resembles the positioning of a shoot, whether intended or not, couldn't that in it of itself be a jusitification/reasoning for doing it this way? We all know that techniques can take on multiple applications. If this particular technique has an application that maybe our masters before us didn't see, then maybe it's not so wrong to keep doing it that way?

LKH Lineage People:
Doesn't it strike you odd that it is only our CLF lineage that plays the stance this way? When no other lineage of CLF has a history of doing Lok Quei Ma this way, it's obvious someone down the line in our lineage decided to do it this way for some reason or another.

I think chasincharchui nailed it, when he said it looks cooler. We all know that our traditional arts have aesthetically pleasing movements that aren't exactly practical, or that you have to really get creative and stretch out some relevance to practical applications. Perhaps our version of this stance was done more from aesthetical standpoint, and not much more?

-123

[Lama Pai Sifu]

No, shooting in to take down (as in wrestling) is not the same is 'shoot in low' to throw a strike. They are not the same at all.

Dont' confuse the wrestlers shoot, because they drag their leg. If you don't understand what I mean, then there's not point discussing it.

[Fu-Pow]

Lama:

LKH Lineage People:
Doesn't it strike you odd that it is only our CLF lineage that plays the stance this way? When no other lineage of CLF has a history of doing Lok Quei Ma this way, it's obvious someone down the line in our lineage decided to do it this way for some reason or another.

We don't do it that way. So it must be something that LKH changed later on. Mak Sifu was an early student of LKH and so I think his form looks the most like LKH's original way. Although you can't always say because he's picked things up along the way as well from Buk Sam Kong and Ip Sui, his mantis teacher.

It's OK for a martist to change and evolve although I think that in this case it is something that needs to devolve. :D ;)

It's OK if you guys don't want to change right away but atleast be open to it. There are lots of things that I heard on this forum that I initially resisted but eventually I came to see where somebody else was coming from.

So don't feel like you need to defend it. However, the next time you do this motion think to yourself "why am I doing this in a particular way. What is the utility? Is there a better way? Am I doing this because it feels right or just because of tradition?"

Take Care

FP

[CLFNole]

This is the problem I have with talking about techniques it is just difficult without physically being there and showing each other what we mean. We might think we are way off when in actuality it might be much closer than what we think. Also seeing someone's perspective live is always better than talking about it especially between different lineages.

Much easier to argue about lineage don't you think. ;)

[Sow Choy]

Thats the word...

drag the leg...

when we use this movement goin in, even at the end of our forms, we use the back leg to shoot and then it drags when we cover the distance... LKH shows this in his book while avoiding a punch and goin low for the groin chop choy...

I do not believe LKH is the only lineage that does it, I just think we all are having a hard time describing it...

But... I was taught ot retreat with this step and use the arch of the foot... However I changed it myself to the ball in that situation cause I feel its more comfortable... I learned it that way at Shaolin Temple on one of our trips there... Where we trained on a very uneven brick type floor outside near the pagoda forest...

Ever since I kept that... Other CLF peeps I have met who fight Sanshou and Submission use this for the shoot also, and I was taught using it for the same purpose as the Jujitsu people...

FuPow...

Even Poon Sing's people do this stance the same as LKH... Even in Chan Kwok Wai's CLF and Bak Siu Lum... as well as Wah Lum...

So really there are many who do it this way... Can it help block or strike...? sure...

Is the ball better than the arch...? I believe in most cases...

"I believe" easier than This is RIGHT...

Joe

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

Also to say Sifu Mak has sifu's original way is a bit of an insult to those of us who followed him at the end of his teaching career. It is more like Sifu Mak followed Sifu early in his teaching career, even before Sifu followed So Kam Fook. We all evolve over time so nothing is more "original" just a bit different is all.

Peace.

[Mano Mano]

CLFNole it is me Alec
I’m not saying you are wrong either It’s just not done in my CLF lineage. I have seen the stance done the way your lineage does it in some of the bak sing schools

The next time I’m back in Florida I might actually make it down to Boca Raton.

[CLFNole]

Alec:

I know your lineage does it with the ball of the foot as I have seen Chan Kin Man do it that way and if I remember correctly you are from that line.

Although we do it different I have no problem it is just I WOULDN'T TELL YOU THAT YOUR WAY IS WRONG, you know what I mean?

[Mano Mano]

Nole, I wouldn’t either. If your lineage does it that way your master Lee Koon Hung had a reason for it be that way.

I've seen a few differences in stance work when I do a combination of pow kup kup my front leg is bent, rear leg straight (bow & arrow stance) & I’ve seen an other lineage like mine from Chan Koon Pak do the same combination but with the rear leg slightly bent a bit like a boxer.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu-Pow:

Also to say Sifu Mak has sifu's original way is a bit of an insult to those of us who followed him at the end of his teaching career. It is more like Sifu Mak followed Sifu early in his teaching career, even before Sifu followed So Kam Fook. We all evolve over time so nothing is more "original" just a bit different is all.

Peace.

Sorry guys, I'm not necessarily trying to equate "original" with better. I'm just saying that LKH evolved as a martial artist so that people who followed him earlier might have learned something different than those that followed him later.

If Poon Sing does it your way then perhaps that is the "original" way, maybe Mak Sifu changed something because of other influences..?

Whatever the reason, my own opinion is that the ball on the foot way is the superior way ....from both a biomechanical and strategic standpoint.

Like I said, let it sink in, and experiment and find out which way is better and why.

FP

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Thats the word...

drag the leg...

That was my point earlier. Drag the leg in with you as you move. Don't leave it out there with the stress on the knee. Plus it's a target.


Even Poon Sing's people do this stance the same as LKH... Even in Chan Kwok Wai's CLF and Bak Siu Lum... as well as Wah Lum...

Yes Wah Lum does that move but it's a half Wu Dip Ma, not Gwai Ma. We pull the leg in and drop as we strike. I'm sure you've seen it before. I guess CLF doesn't have Wu Dip Ma.

Eddie, let me know when you're in town. Maybe I'll take a drive down there. My daughter lives in West Palm so I can visit her too. My lower back is shot out so I'm limited in the anmount of training I can handle.

Oh, whoever said that leg out looks better in performance is nuts (IMO). Hurts me just looking at it but then I'm not so young anymore. A lot of things hurt me these days.

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

I agree it is a viable way its just it is not the only way. That was why I responded to this to start off. If we stay close-minded as martial artists we would never evolve. I do the stance like you described being more "squared" if you will just rather than the ball I like the arch and can move very effectively from it into various other stances. I have played with it the other way and have nothing against just that it feels better for me the other way. Remember I am small and only weigh like 150 lbs. so it doesn't put much stress on me. You guys are all big so I could see were it might bother you.

I didn't take offense to what you said just wasn't sure if you were trying to imply something else. All is cool.

Peace.

[Ben Gash]

This is one of those situations where everyone is right up to a point. The stance with the back leg inside down is a valid CMA stance, commonly seen in Fujian styles, especially Wuzhuquan and Baihequan, as well as in the Wushu Nanquan form (the bit with the double palm strike on the ground), and I've even seen some Bak Sing Fut Gar guys do it.
However, Lama Pai is correct in that it is not what I understand a Lok Gwei Ma to be. The energies, intentions and applications are different.
The side footed stance puts the bulk of the weight over the front foot, making it good for moves that drive forwards and/or down. It's good if you hook with your front leg and drive downwards, and it's good for driving attacks to the mid section as discussed. However, the disadvantages are that your opponent has to be directly in front of you if you're going to use it offensively, and defensively the major drawback is it's REALLY hard to get up from. The structural drawbacks are that the bent leg is very vulnerable, and most importantly the knee and foot of the bent leg cannot be used offensively, which is what all the best Lok Gwei Ma applications use.
I must say though, Sifu Parrella, you seem to be really confrontational lately, what's up? Something on your mind?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Ah..so it seems that some of you don't agree with me, on the point that something can be 'wrong'. Or is it really that you just don't want to 'say' that you think something is wrong?

It's a simple matter of logic;

Can any technique be wrong?

Can you punch incorrectly? Can you take ping choih, and bend your wrist 30 degrees downward and still be correct?

If we can agree, logically, that Ping Choih can be wrong, why can't a stance be wrong?

Why can't anything that any of us do be wrong?

If you follow this logic, EVENTUALLY, SOMETHING HAS TO BE RIGHT, AND SOMETHING HAS TO BE WRONG.

I can understand your need for diplomacy. Most of you, really haven't trained long enough, or taught long enough or taught enough people, to really say what is right or wrong. I accept that.

But don't think for a minute that everyone on this forum is right! You guys don't mind fighting tooth-and-nail over lineage, now do you? Who was the founder, co-founder, where such and such form came from, etc. What it was called, where it flourished. All things that really can't be proved. But when it comes down to stuff we can actually touch, everyone's a politician. Even Frank!

Stand up or shut up! If you don't know why you do something a certain way, find out. If you can't explain something, as to how or why it works, find out more about it! Many of you mention the word 'evolve'. In order to do so, we must first start thinking differently. If you don't know applications, body mechanics, structure, counters, power generation, etc, you should really focus less time on evolving and more time on training.

I know this will open up some eyes, while allowing others to grind thier teeth.

I am not trying to be adverserial here, I respect everyone's opinions. I don't necessarily agree with them all, but that is okay.

And remember; some of here are novices and some experts. The opinions vary based on the experience of the poster. Do your best to respect that as well.

:) :) :)

Ben,

Do I seem a bit agitated to you lately? Not meaning to be. I've been off the forums for a few weeks, and just recently got back.

I enjoy talking about techniques as upposed to lineage. The techniques I can touch, the lineage - well, we may never know. Plus, I train and teach my students stuff they can use; not saying that lineage knowlege is useless, but if I never told them the name of CLF, they could still learn it well.

It's not that I don't respect my ancestors. I'm into Chinese culture, and I like my lineage info. But I don't dress like Bruce LeRoy. I speak Cantonese, but my house isnt filled with Chinese statues.

Just trying to keep it real.

[Ben Gash]

To be fair, only 3 people ever fought tooth and nail over lineage (although one of them had 5 different identities), and one of them has seen that there are better ways to go about things, and the other ones have kind of drifted off.
However, as a result of that though, everyone is now a lot more careful about what we say on the internet ;)

[Fu-Pow]

If you follow this logic, EVENTUALLY, SOMETHING HAS TO BE RIGHT, AND SOMETHING HAS TO BE WRONG.
.

Not necessarily. What if we're all right. At least partially right, partially wrong?

Secondly,

I think right and wrong in martial arts has a objective and subjective element to it. Sometimes what is right for one body is wrong for another body. If we all had the same body then it woudl be easy to say who was right and who was wrong.

But there are SIMILARITIES between all of our bodies and it is known that if you put excessive force on the outside or inside of the knee that MOST people will end up with problems because of how most peoples knees work.

To use myself as an example. I'm very tall, long neck, long hips. I have abnormally strong quads. My hips are fairly wide for my build and it allows me to have a lot of flexibility in my hips, so much that I can do both forward and side splits . My upper body is not as well developed as my lower. Not for lack of trying because genetically its just not going happen.

Compare me to somebody that has narrow hips, long legs, short hips, short neck, abnormally strong upper body and chicken legs.

Do you think that we are going do things the same way? Is our form going to look the same? Should it?

FP

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Fu Pow,

I agree with what you said. But we are not talking about that.

[Fu-Pow]

Fu Pow,

I agree with what you said. But we are not talking about that.

My bad..what are you guys talking about? :confused:

FP

[David Jamieson]

In regards to correct body mechanics and same in reference to kinesiological principles, I agree that there is right and wrong and it is definitive.

I also believe there is alternate methods that can be used which may penalize you in one way, but if done correctly will make up for it some where else.

In terms of the stance in question, I learned that the knee is off the floor, the weight is almost double weighted and the bent leg is supported on the ball of the foot pushing slightly forward.

But that's just how I learned it. As a personal observation, I see laying the knee on the ground, with the inside of the foot there as well as being structurally unsound and a relatively large gate to attack. By moving into the lowered side, the person in that stance would find it difficult to easily evade unless the did a rolling over move.

I'm saying Im not sure how the stance would work like that. Having never done it that way, that is.

[hskwarrior]

lama,

call me a politician if you like because i can see both sides of the coin. However I prefer the kneeling horse I've always used.

Still, just because you and I do similar horses, that doesn't mean our way is totally correct.

Yes you do seem pretty confrontational lately, and not sure if you're getting any, dealing with a pregnant wife or what ever, but something's afire under your arse.

You don't have the right way, I don't have the right way, nor does anyone else. because when it comes to the differences between all of us, we all need to do the horse in different ways that is beneficial to us.

You seem to have just one way. me, i'm not satisfied with just one way. That one way may be good for you, but I might like something else that works for me.

Open your eyes a little, stop acting like you got the real deal way, and be open minded about how others do their stuff.

IF we do it wrong, but we don't fix it, then let it stay broke. but you are not their sifu, and I'm sure their sifu taught it to them that way.

If you have a problem with that, then see their sifu's about it.

you can see me if you like;) :D

[hskwarrior]

there's a lot in CLF that other schools do differently.

for example, the LKH lineage does two things that I wasn't taught that way.

the first is the way they sometimes execute an eye level panther fist, and the other is how they do the tiger claw, both in din ji ma horses. But i don't say they are wrong, it's just how they do it. would i do it that way? no I'd change it to the way i do it, but remember, that's how "I'D" do it.

So learn to be politically correct;) :D ;) :D

[TenTigers]

Nevermind that, I wanna know how Chen Man-Ching's Tai-Chi was taught wrong!!!

[chasincharpchui]

CLFNole it is me Alec
I’m not saying you are wrong either It’s just not done in my CLF lineage. I have seen the stance done the way your lineage does it in some of the bak sing schools



which buk sing schools have u seen do the drag in?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

A quote from Frank:


Yes you do seem pretty confrontational lately, and not sure if you're getting any, dealing with a pregnant wife or what ever, but something's afire under your arse.

:mad: Frank, thanks for posting this. You just reminded me why I took a break from this southern forum. :mad:

Bye Bye for now, I'll address you at the end of this post.

And some of you get it and some of you dont'. Yes, there are variations of things. But if I do a horizontal fist, where I bend my wrist downward, doing away with that 'straight and level fist concept', and....let me guess. You are going to say that it is correct and that's just another way to do it?

I brought up the idea of a horse stance with the feet 12" past each knee..is that correct to? Wow, with all these amazing variations which are correct,...why have a teacher? I mean, a teacher can't show you the right way..only thier way. Hmm..I guess there is no longer a standard for a martial art. You are now permitted to change any technique, regardless of how long you train in it. Your excuse? It suits me...because, I'm;

Too fat, too thin, to wide in the hips, to old, to out of shape, legs too short, body too long and lanky, head too big, brain too small. WTF????

Are some of you saying that there is NO RIGHT WAY TO DO ANYTHING? For pete's sake, TAKE A STAND ON SOMETHING!

Is there a right and wrong? Can some things be black and white? Of course they can. And stop saying..my way..your way..blah, blah, blah. We have heard it before.

Why not answer the questions I'm posing; Would the horse be right if the feet were so wide? OF COURSE NOT! Why, because it could no longer be used for it's intended purpose in that position. BUT, couldn't you find that extra wide horse useful? I GUESS YOU COULD. I COULD FIND APPLICATIONS IN BALET MOVEMENTS - DOESN"T MAKE IT PROPER KUNG-FU!~ Are you afraid to admit that?

Just because YOU 'think' (And I use that term losely here) that a technique is right, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU ARE RIGHT?

What makes me think I'm right? Hmm..I guess the fact that I have given specific info as to why, I can explain it verbally, in written form and most certainly in person. AND WE ARE REFERRING TO THE KNEELING STANCE IN QUESTION, AND IT'S INTENDED PURPOSE. NOT HOW YOU THINK YOU MIGHT APPLY THIS VARIATION. And I could be wrong! If I am, please tell me how to do it better. Believe me; if you could show me how to do any of my techniques better...I would want to know. Seriously, I'm not being facitious. I would love to know. I would love to learn how to be faster, pentrate my opponents defenses better, be stronger, etc. What's wrong with that? By debating and seeing other peoples ideas, I can learn if there is in truth, a better way.

....I thought everyone was trying to do that as well......? Am I wrong? (that might be a trick question...don't answer him! - Just playing guys)

I can tell that about half of you posting here, agree with me. But since you are not me, I don't expect you to say, YES, in my opinion, I think that the stance is wrong. And you don't have to.

I'm not looking for validation from anyone, just trying to get some of you to see things differently.

"If there is no right answer, why search for the truth? If there is not right way to aspire to, why bother aspiring?" This, is exactly my point. I couldn't have said it any better...oh wait, I just did.

I am enjoying the healthy and respectful debate: Except where Frank thinks he can talk about my sex life or my wife on a public forum. Good Job Frank, way to go. You are a real gentleman. Grow up and people might start respecting you. And call you? No thanks. I sent you a DVD after our last call, you received it and never even thanked me. I had to ask you wether or not you got it. Not even an email to say 'thanks for the dvd'. Class act you are.

And don't try your 'gangster' act with me because I have spoken up about you. You Sir, are exactly what is WRONG about these forums. The only reason I came back on here is because YOU LEFT! Now you are back,.... great.

And I see how you try to intimidate everyone who disagrees with you. 'your from the streets, you grew up ghetto, you are a straight up gangsta, you fight with knives..blah blah blah. Come down to my crib, I'll do this and that to you...I'll tell this elder, get these guys against you..blah blah blah. I am not intimidated. In fact, I live in NY, have 4 boys, and I'VE BEEN MARRIED TWICE! That in itself is the equivalent of Vietnam X2! Don't make me laugh...been there, done that, got the t-shirt! (-but you don't hear me bragging about it)

You Frank, have no 'decorum on the forum'. (You guys can use that quote...it fits, huh?)

[CLFNole]

Lama:

I'll bit into your sermon a bit. You brought up "ping choy" and if you bent the fist 30 degrees and said that is how you did it would it be right. Well if you bent the fist the term "ping" or level would not apply and therefore yes it would be wrong.

Now we will move on to loq kwai ma or "kneeling horse" there is nothing inherent in the name that specifies alignment, if it is the ball or arch of foot. It just means kneeling horse so there is nothing 100% definative. You can't look it up anywhere to quantify it. So right and wrong is an interpretation and don't take this wrong but why should I listen to you and you the same. Other lineages do use as do other styles, you may not like it or agree with it but it is there. CLF has always been known for its fighting so I can't see this being added for demo purposes unless it showed up recently but this goes way back.

My problem more or less with you is the way you came out saying it was wrong. The way you presented it was very ****y and you talk to a lot of us like we are some kind of newbies. Many of us have been doing and teaching CLF for over 10 years so we should all respect each other, heck we should respect newbies as well since they don't know any better.

I agree in the video the stance is quite "wrong" and very vulnerable; however it can be done as you described on the arch of the foot in the same way as the ball. As long as the leg isn't way out there like in the video. It would all come down to what you are doing while using the stance. Like my kung fu brother said earlier there is a section from Siu Moi Fah where we block a kick with a cum jeurng and shoot in with loq kwai ma lau jeurng to the groin. Another way we use is kind of a side step jeet fu choy in kwai ma.

I think showing things in person is the best way for anything. You described your way me mine and that is all that can be done with this type of forum.

By the way I think Frank was just fooling with you.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

which buk sing schools have u seen do the drag in?

It's not just the drag of the leg..that's not what we are talking about. There are times to drag the foot and times not to. It's what part of the foot is making contact, that's what I think we are discussing.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Lama:

I'll bit into your sermon a bit. You brought up "ping choy" and if you bent the fist 30 degrees and said that is how you did it would it be right. Well if you bent the fist the term "ping" or level would not apply and therefore yes it would be wrong.

Now we will move on to loq kwai ma or "kneeling horse" there is nothing inherent in the name that specifies alignment, if it is the ball or arch of foot. It just means kneeling horse so there is nothing 100% definative. You can't look it up anywhere to quantify it. So right and wrong is an interpretation and don't take this wrong but why should I listen to you and you the same. Other lineages do use as do other styles, you may not like it or agree with it but it is there. CLF has always been known for its fighting so I can't see this being added for demo purposes unless it showed up recently but this goes way back.

My problem more or less with you is the way you came out saying it was wrong. The way you presented it was very ****y and you talk to a lot of us like we are some kind of newbies. Many of us have been doing and teaching CLF for over 10 years so we should all respect each other, heck we should respect newbies as well since they don't know any better.

I agree in the video the stance is quite "wrong" and very vulnerable; however it can be done as you described on the arch of the foot in the same way as the ball. As long as the leg isn't way out there like in the video. It would all come down to what you are doing while using the stance. Like my kung fu brother said earlier there is a section from Siu Moi Fah where we block a kick with a cum jeurng and shoot in with loq kwai ma lau jeurng to the groin. Another way we use is kind of a side step jeet fu choy in kwai ma.

I think showing things in person is the best way for anything. You described your way me mine and that is all that can be done with this type of forum.

By the way I think Frank was just fooling with you.

Since when do we even walk on the arches of our feet? Now we are fighting on them? And it doesn't translate exactly to "kneeling stance" having no difinitive description. It describes the action of 'turning over' the leg/thigh, WHICH IS WHERE THE POWER GENERATION COMES IN.

Chinese terminology is useful when learned properly. It usually describes an 'action' rather than a visual shape (like karate and TKD). I understand that not everyone speaks Cantonese, but you can look proper definitions on the web.

As far as speaking to everyone as newbees? Hardly. I am flexible in my beliefs and strong in my convictions. I am as open as possible to new possibilities. Bring 'em on. Just make sure that you can clearly explain yourself and be prepared to defend your position. I gladly welcome you to challenge mine. Just as if we were sparring in person, we can both learn from the verbal or physical exchange.

I direct no disrespect towards anyone and I respect your (and everyone elses) right to your own opinion. What that actually means, is I will not try to stifle it. It doesn't mean that I will neccessarily agree with it however.

Keep up the good work. Always seek the truth.

And it is not necessary to defend Frank. It is nice that you think he is fooling with me. You seem like a good person, and a bit too P.C.

[CLFNole]

It is not a matter of walking on the arch. I'll try and describe it to you as best as I can. In the first example I gave about blocking the kick and shooting in with loq kwai ma lau jeurng to the groin. The initial push is from the back (right) leg from the ball of the foot. As the body moves forward (left foot in front) the right leg will slide in behind and rest on the inside arch of the foot. From there it is quick and easy to get up and move into another stance.

In the 2nd thing I mentioned you just drop into loq kwa ma while doing a block with jeet fu choy again the inside edge of the foot with the knee bending. The ankle and foot do not turn 90 degrees just in slightly.

As far a knowing chinese "ngoh kwandung wa mm chau" (I don't write Yale or Pinyan just how it sounds) definately not as good as yours but my sifus like yours were and are not great with english although they could speak. Also my wife is really no help becuase she doesn't like kung fu things, go figure her father a sifu and can't stand kung fu.

Peace.

[TenTigers]

yeah, yeah, cool. I get it. WHAT ABOUT CHENG MAN-CHING????!!!

married twice? Look, Mike, I understand sometimes things get bad, life is hard, and you are probably under a great deal of pressure.-but there are much better ways to kill yourself. What kind of guilt are you carrying around that you feel you deserve a such slow, agonizing death?

[hskwarrior]

lama,

it was just a joke. How do i know about your sex life to be talking about it.

clfnole realized I was fooling with you.

But it's obviously somethings bothering you to attack me when i was just joking with you hence the......;) :D

Nah, i won't pull some gangster sheet on you. don't worry buddy.

what ever you're going thru will turn out ok.

hope you realize one day it was just a joke, but we'll see what kind of man you are.

peace.

[hskwarrior]

wow, I just re-read his post towards me.

does anyone else agree that he's got a bug up his arse about something?

you know what, the day you called i got the dvd a day before. I emailed you a thank you and sent you a pm as well.

you call me a class act with your background???????

Look this is the forum, and I'm not the one with the rep of jacking people, here.

you are a pure business man, that's fine. but what evers bothering you, it wasn't my fault.

and, again, don't worry .....no gangsters here buddy. oops sorry, i mean friend....no.......well,........you know.

[Mano Mano]

chasincharpchui

I wasn’t referring to dragging the leg in, I was referring to the various positions of lok qwaai ma stance

I'm not bashing Bak Sing just making a point that there is variation in all lineages, The School I saw was about 20-23 years ago in London’s china town It was just one of the things I remembered that’s all, I’ve seen Bak sing schools that don’t do it, just pointing out that all branches have variation.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lama Pai Sifu
I understand your point and agree with what you're saying. But there's still the argument from their perspective that it's correct within their line.

I recall reading an article on an older Southern Crane Master who's feet were deformed due to the constant practice of his style's stances. The stances were correct for the style but not from a heatlh standpoint.

Makiwara training to toughen the knuckles is correct within the context of Karate but it damages the hand in the long run. Not 'correct' from a health perspective. Apparently the sacrifice is worth it to some. Chinese Iron Palm training provides the same results without the damage.

So it can be right and wrong at the same time. It's wrong from my POV because of the strain on the knee plus it's a target. Anytime your leg is extended it's a liability.

The human body can adapt so almost anything can be made to work. Some ways just work better than others.

I'm curious as to wether it's done that way consistantly throughout the sets (within this lineage) or is it sometimes done on the ball of the foot?

Just as an improperly executed straight punch can cause personal injury so can an improperly executed stance.

Maybe there is a good reason for doing it 'wrong' as CLFNole is saying.

Oh, and the 'correct' way to address this is to say 'here's a better way, and explain why' rather than say 'YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT'. As you may have noticed your way is more confrontational.

[chasincharpchui]

It's not just the drag of the leg..that's not what we are talking about. There are times to drag the foot and times not to. It's what part of the foot is making contact, that's what I think we are discussing.

yeh it does look painful to do that stance haha, i mean aint the knee and ankle get bent kinda wrong?


It is not a matter of walking on the arch. I'll try and describe it to you as best as I can. In the first example I gave about blocking the kick and shooting in with loq kwai ma lau jeurng to the groin. The initial push is from the back (right) leg from the ball of the foot. As the body moves forward (left foot in front) the right leg will slide in behind and rest on the inside arch of the foot. From there it is quick and easy to get up and move into another stance.




wouldnt it be even more quickier and easier if ur rear foot was already on its ball/toes to move into another stance, instead of inside arch-->ball of foot->into another stance?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Why do people think that I have a lot of pressures in my life, or that I have an axe to grind here? :confused:

I am just expressing my opinions about an issue. I am a strong person and have strong opinions. :)

It's funny how people, who no nothing about me personally or what goes on in my life, attempt to detract from the issues by commenting on it. :p


I think that this aguement is getting down to semantics. Can a line or specific lineage do a technique, where as they have misinturpreted an application, and thereby have changed the technique? Is this possible? Of course it is

Now you can argue that; 'this is correct for their line', but does that make it truly correct? Is it being done with the application in mind? Is the technique being done safely for the practitioner? Will long term injury result? Is it not practical in a self defense or real fighting situation? Doesn't any technique have right or wrong? Surely, techniques have parameters, no? Boundries of acceptability, variations....but where do you draw the line? When is a technique past the point of variations, and is just flat out wrong~?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Isn't there a higher standard for a movement than just the idea that every or any school can do anything they want, and then just explain it away by saying;

'this is how we do it, and therefore, no one can outside our line can judge it or correct it.' Do you see what I'm saying here?

Why do many of you here, seem opposed to the idea that a technique can be wrong? And although you may be opposed to the idea, it doesn't make it untrue. Techniques....they can be wrong.

And please, don't bring up the mumbo-jumbo about 'having an open mind' an how 'KF is evolving.' That is not the issue. I agree with all of you on that point. And having a strong belief, even a rock solid one, does not proclude one from having an open mind.

I have a very open mind. And I also have a very scientific mind as well.

My 'open mind' allows me to see things differently from day to day and to recognize that there is more than one way to do many things (many, being the operative word here, not ALL).

My 'scientific mind' tells me that there is a finite number of variations for any movement, and there are specific and scientific parameters for each move. The variations allow for size, shape, speed and power of the practictioner. But I do not confuse those variations, with changes of technique which breach the threashold of that technique's scientific boundries.

"I needn't be open to the idea that sun may not rise tomorrow, when I know that it surely will."

If any of you have trouble understand this at this point, I have no wish to try to explain it any further. Not being jerky, I feel I've made my point. Those who agree, cool. Those who do not agree, cool as well.

[Ben Gash]

Why do people think that I have a lot of pressures in my life, or that I have an axe to grind here?

The marked decline in your interpersonal skills :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

his interpersonal skills haven't declined. they've reverted back to his old ways.

although I've said i was just joking, this wise arse still doesn't acknowledge the fact that he has been pretty rough around the edges lately.

this arse hole owes me an apology, but i know he's not man enough to give it.

as he said, he know surely that the sun will rise tomorrow.

bridges burned.

[hskwarrior]

"Why do many of you here, seem opposed to the idea that a technique can be wrong? And although you may be opposed to the idea, it doesn't make it untrue. Techniques....they can be wrong."--lama


Because if the technique works, then who are you to say they are doing it wrong?

Who's to say that your way is right?

with such select variations, a practicioner has many theories to choose from.

regardless, you are coming down on those who have nothing to do with your school or methods. You can only express your opinion about the techniques. IF you truly think they are wrong, then be a man and personally show someone where they are doing it wrong.

But if not, then it's only your opinion. and just like arseholes, we all got em.

[hskwarrior]

hey ben,

how's your cheung kuen going?

[Eddie]

see. thias topic was cool after all. so much info.
anways, ill be in florida from the 12th of august. I'll briefly be in NY on that day, but apperently not long enough to leave the airport. would be nice to meet as many people.

I got a vitamin B12 injections last week (to cope with extreme climate change), and seems that the piercing got infected. my bum is swollen and I feel like crap.

[Ben Gash]

Not so good, I slipped on a wet floor and tweaked my rotator cuff quite badly :o :( Kinda hampers your Poon Kius and Tsop Chuis :mad:

[hskwarrior]

Sorry to hear that ben.

Hope you have a speedy recovery.

You know I thought it was funny that you said you are still breaking up cheung kuen because me and my classmates are still doing the same thing. There is so many good things in that set, and in our school is one of the core sets we tell people to keep if they quit.

In any of your other CLF sets, do you have the same type of double kwa choy's as in cheung kuen?

And the break in Cheung Kuen after the circle chop, do you use it as a break, or have you tried it like we use it as sort of like a pek choy but with the forearm chopping downwards. like a reverse biu jong.

hsk

[CLFNole]

"And it doesn't translate exactly to "kneeling stance" having no difinitive description. It describes the action of 'turning over' the leg/thigh, WHICH IS WHERE THE POWER GENERATION COMES IN.

Chinese terminology is useful when learned properly. It usually describes an 'action' rather than a visual shape (like karate and TKD). I understand that not everyone speaks Cantonese, but you can look proper definitions on the web."
I was curious as to how exactly loq kwai ma describes the action of "turning over" the leg/thigh.

Loq means to go down or lower
Kwai means to kneel

So roughly it means "to go down and kneel" hence kneeling horse stance. Where exactly is the turning over part coming from? I have 3 people born and raised in Hong Kong who can't figure out what you are saying.

[Fu-Pow]

I think he's confusing the Lok (fall) as in Lok Gwai Mah with the Lok (wheel) in Lok Kiuh, like from Siu Mui Fah...ie Baau Jaang, Lok Kiuh, Chi Sau, Baai Mah, Gwa Kam.

FP

[CLFNole]

That could be the case but that is a different character entirely and has a different tonation. Lok as in lok kiu is pronounced more with an "uc" sound, whereas in lok kwai ma the lok is pronounced more like "au/aw" sound. It is hard to write but the tone is different.

[Fu-Pow]

You are right. According to my cantonese dictionary, its:

Luk Kiuh, "uk" as in cook, Luk has a high even tone and

Lohk Kiuh,"ohk" as in lock, Lohk has a low even tone