Against BJJ or similar

[sir-elrik]

How should we(i)(you) react against some one that knows some kind of grapling MA (BJJ mainly) and he is aiming to drag in you in the floor?

[viper]

I do bjj. its a great add on to wc. There are lots of things including the judging of distance etc. One i like to use to stop shoots is to go to a low horse stance as the shoot comes in take a half step back at the same time deliver a strike to the back of the head as well as doin a garn sau to redirect the force off. Put the garn into he neck area if any of this makes sense

[AmanuJRY]

sprawl!

;) :D :cool:

[tjwingchun]

The problem I have with a reply to this question is that there is not enough information to what has led up to the confrontation.

I understand Viper's response and can visualise it being sucesssful, my own initial response is an elbow to the head. Whether that is to the nose, side of the head, or back of the head, it depends upon line of attack.

That is if it is they who have moved in first to break down the distance between you.

If the fight has psychologically began but there has been no actual physical movement, then depending on range, you can initiate an attack with a kick to the ankle/knee/pelvis followed by strike to eyes/throat/solar plexus/floating ribs and depending upon the result of the entry techniques and the ability of the opponent, apart from your own experience of fighting, you should control the elbows and select available targets to hit.

If they have the advantage of getting a grip on you, take the fingers individually and dislocate them, for any hints as to the vulverability of NHB or any other fighting system, look at their rules of competition and learn, boxers tell you that the lower abdominal region is susceptible (below the belt), and using the phoenix eye can have the required effect, also the back of the head/neck (rabbit punch).

My view has always been and always will be is that if you know you are in a fight what are you waiting for! If you wait for a BJJ, they will ground you and choke you out, a boxer will punch you out, Thai boxers or TKD will kick you out, if they have any advantages do not play in their back gardens, understand YOUR abilities and apply them where YOU feel best suited.

There are so many parameters to real fighting that there can never be a simple response to the question in this thread, it is my view that the more prepared you are the better you will be able to survive a situation you have not been shown before, we all know the answers to yesterdays crossword when we have todays infront of us, the trick is having the depth of knowledge and experience to answer the questions when they appear and not ending up in the obituary column.

[unkokusai]

How should we(i)(you) react against some one that knows some kind of grapling MA (BJJ mainly) and he is aiming to drag in you in the floor?


Go learn grappling.

[unkokusai]

One i like to use to stop shoots is to go to a low horse stance as the shoot comes in take a half step back at the same time deliver a strike to the back of the head as well as doin a garn sau to redirect the force off.



LOL

That's funny! Good one! :D

[Nick Forrer]

Theres a move (called a quarter nelson in some circles) which IME works quite well against a shoot. One hand gets an underhook, the other pushes his head down as he comes in, the underhook hand grabs the forearm of the hand that is on his head and you take a step across and make a scopping action with your hand to twist his head and turn him over. Alternatively once you have secured the proper grip you can step off line and knee him in the head. Its simliar to a helicopter throw in silat except I think its much higher percentage. As always though its not fool-proof and requires practice, the correct timing etc.

Against upper body clinches/tie ups if a good wrestler gets a body lock on you and you havent wrestled yourself then in all probability you are going down. Learning to swim your hands for an underhook is a good drill to practice to defend the bodylock and doesnt take long to learn.

If you dont know what the hell im talking about when I say shoot, underhook etc. buy and watch an elementary grappling instructional DVD (e.g. one with Dan Gable) to get an idea. Or the book 'winning wrestling moves' is a good primer.
And dont accept advice about how to deal with a wrestler from someone who has never trained in it or at the very least spent time sparring against it - you will get a theoretical speculative answer based on 'deadly moves' that could 'never be used in the UFC'

[Liddel]

There is no magic answer but IME a good sprawl and an elbow to the back of the head and or neck / or thereabouts is a good reaction. Thats for a shoot.

Stepping ofline using the triangle horse or basic side step also minimises the chance you will get hooked, perhaps turning it to a single leg takedown if your elbow doesnt land :rolleyes:

Against upper body clinch - if you are going down. straight out of CQB techniques eye gouge, bite, neck crank, throat grab you dont have much time but any of these is better than nothing.

Nothing is full proof but thats my opinion. :cool:

[anerlich]

How should we(i)(you) react against some one that knows some kind of grapling MA (BJJ mainly) and he is aiming to drag in you in the floor?


Grapplers know better than anyone else how to defend against other grapplers, since they deal with them all the time in training.

Seek some basic instruction in the art, and you'll be much better equipped to deal with its attacks than will a ideological purist who does not.

[Wu Wei Wu]

the best way to react to a grappler if you are a pure wing chun man, is to tap.

try to avoid speculation and conjecture. IMO, the only way to train against takedown and to work fighting from the clinch, is to go into a good grappling club and train. this is the best environment for you to 'test' your wing chun when moving.

good grapplers know how to avoid being hit, or how to minimize the damage they receive. i dont think elbowing to the back of the head will achieve anything, especially if the grappler has removed your legs from the ground. your strikes will not be powerful if you are off balance.

learn how to sprawl.

if you are set on just trying to train stand up against groundfighting, then find the best fighter in your area. one who is able to use striking whilst preventing a takedown. then watch/model/learn his movements.

[Mr Punch]

the best way to react to a grappler if you are a pure wing chun man, is to tap.Hehehe, very true.

Sprawl. Some biu gee mechanics can be used in that but it's kind of like reinventing the wheel, and definitely learn it from grapplers, not chunners (unless they're grapplers too).

The quarter nelson thing (I always knew it as kaiten-nage in aikido) can work, as does swimming to get position in the first place. Again, IF you get instruction from a grappler first and IF you think it helps I find kao sao and double gan sao useful mechanics for swimming and quarter nelson... Don't forget, being good at swimming doesn't mean you can finish. But swimming can be used to get out of the situation as well as to get advantageous positioning. Of course, if you practice clinching in your wing chun that should help, but unfortunately you probably don't!

The stepping off and garn to the back of the head/behind the ear, or an elbow to a similar area will only work against somebody who is really bad at shooting/takedowns. If you are training for self defence, this means it's not a waste of time to learn it (average frat boy too drunk to remember his wrestling or whatever), but if you're training to fight trained grapplers (in a ring or whatever) it will get you a beating and make you look stupid!

[Gooseman]

Grappling, wrestling, shoots, clinchs, throws, takedowns, reaps and sweeps are all concentrated on fully in your local BJJ class.
Go there tonight, take a towel and plenty of water, and dont try to think that chi-sau will save you!

The Goose

[Doug H]

From my experience it is important to control a grapplers shoot by eliminating their target (your legs / torso) and controlling their head. An experienced Bjj fighter can deal with spawls that tend to rely heavily on body mass alone.
As a wing chunner, your strengths are strikes so it's important to control the head of the shooter. Don't try to stop the head with an open hand as this will cause injury. Use a combination of a sunken elbow to the oncoming collarbone aswell as a neck controlling hand (fook sau) behind the head. Simultaneousley jumping a half step backwards with both legs. The neck pulling hand opens the shooters exposed face that is away from your body leaving an open target for a strike.

[sir-elrik]

i found some vids for consideration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjux_y5Xp64&search=bjj%20vs%20kung%20fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjXUCjLgyis&search=bjj%20vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI&search=bjj%20vs


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3747092207213485 520

what are the mistakes? why they end up in the floor?

[tjwingchun]

Forgive me if I don't wish to get hot, sweaty and roll around the floor with other guys and my chi sau/wing chun skills have always worked against aggressive jui jit su and trained grapplers that I have come into contact with.

Each to their own, I prefer to work on real fighting scenarios and learning to finish the conflict within the first 2-3 seconds at most, if I get into grappling then I will bite/gouge/break or rip anything I can get a hold of.

Then again I teach violence without aggression, I don't believe in sparring as unless it is controlled and managed by a professional instructor it can create the wrong sort of response in real situations, if you are constantly training to hold back on a technique can you be certain when push comes to shove that you won't hit light and if you train full power striking in your training, have you considered the psychological efects of week in week out trying to punch your friends head in.

If we are talking real fighting or recreational activities, we all have different preferences, ideologies and freedom of choice, I believe I have it said before and I will say it many times in the future, what is important is the understanding of SELF.

If you enjoy the way you train that is great, but don't deny others their abilities judged against your experiences, I have students who teach sparring and are part of the NHB scene and when they come with questions I answer them as best I can using my background knowledge and experience of fighting and in the past that has normally been followed by "Hey that works!"

As with my first bit in this thread, it is too open a question to define with one answer, and if we all believe in what we are doing then WE ARE ALL RIGHT in our approaches, as an instructor it is my job to get students to believe in technique and training, both theoretical and practical. If a student has a doubt or questions anything then it is up to me to make them understand the practicallity and that does not mean punching them on the nose and saying "That's how! I can do it so you should be able to."

It has been my opinion for many years that chi sau is a form of grappling without holding on for longer than it takes to have the required effect to open up a line of attack to strike, longer than a fraction of a second and it becomes a strength issue but now I am getting into another field.

I think the biggest difference between grapplers and the majority of WC schools is what I call "THE INTENTION" behind the training, I try to instil an understanding of the violence of every action, developing a visualisation of what a student is trying to achieve with a technique,which then can be used in any situation rather than a specific application from the form, which is why it does not concern me if I am on my feet or on the floor (I know where I prefer to be), I will apply my knowledge as best I can to survive the confrontation.

Go grapple with grapplers, I don't think so, get them to chi sau with me, its what I do for a living, lol.

[Nick Forrer]

Forgive me if I don't wish to get hot, sweaty and roll around the floor with other guys


Getting hot and sweaty are by products of vigorous exercise. I would question anyone who says they 'train' in MA and never gets hot and sweaty. As for the rolling around on the floor with other guys part each to their own but dont knock it until youve tried it.



I prefer to work on real fighting scenarios and learning to finish the conflict within the first 2-3 seconds at most,


Grappling takes place in real fight scenarios all the time in fact I would say its just as prevalent as striking since after the initial flurry there is usually a clinch followed by one or both parties going to the ground. Yes it would be great if you could finish the fight straight away but things dont always go the way you plan. For example even if you arent fighting a skilled grappler you may be tackled from behind, you might slip over (has happened to me in fights before) or you may be fighting someone with a hard chin who can take the first chain punches and clinch with you



if I get into grappling then I will bite/gouge/break or rip anything I can get a hold of.


In terms of standing grappling a properly executed double neck tie, body lock or penetration step will not give you the room or opportunity to bite gouge tear rip whatever. In terms of grappling on the floor a properly executed pin will also not allow you the room or opportunity to do any of these things. If you think you can do these things I would question your knowledge of grappling. Moreover whoever has the better position will be able to do these things too only with a lot more effectiveness.

[Mr Punch]

tj, if you train wing chun's close range stuff you must train clinches no?

If you get close range with someone in a bar fight, they'll try and grab you, and then even getting away from this effectively, or keeping your 'ideal' chi sao distance can only be trained by training clinch work. And wing chun is very well suited to clinch work, right?

Same with grappling.

I'll repeat myself. The kao sao and double gaun work well into a wrestling swimming drill. But if you never train wrestling, or swimming, or clinch work, you'd never know this. You can try reinventing the wheel and working out that for yourself, and even if you're successful, you still won't know what to do or how to use it when you have the advantageous position.

And while your techs will work fine your average bar fighter, all it takes is someone trained in grappling or an unlucky slip and your years of training will be ****ed.

And with respect, all your talk of INTENTION is bull. Jujutsuka don't train with intention, because they train to COMPLETE THE ACTION. So how do you reckon chunners training to intend to hurt someone is more realistic than someone training to hurt someone?! :confused: :rolleyes: :p

All the biting, gouging and hairpulling will just make you look like a biotch when your elbow snaps. It's like your comments on the rattan rings thread: you just see something and without having experienced it you think you're qualified to talk about it. But I bet we have to experience the power of YOUR wing chun to know how your wing chun is so much better than all the other wing chunners who've been taken down and submitted at will in umpteen live environments...?!

As for this:
I have students who teach sparring and are part of the NHB scene and when they come with questions I answer them as best I can using my background knowledge and experience of fighting and in the past that has normally been followed by "Hey that works!"I don't follow the relevance of it. Plus, which students, which NHB, and what do you mean by 'who teach sparring'? Nobody teaches sparring as a separate skill!

[Mr Punch]

In terms of standing grappling a properly executed double neck tie, body lock or penetration step will not give you the room or opportunity to bite gouge tear rip whatever. In terms of grappling on the floor a properly executed pin will also not allow you the room or opportunity to do any of these things. If you think you can do these things I would question your knowledge of grappling. Moreover whoever has the better position will be able to do these things too only with a lot more effectiveness.And tj, frame this please, and put it in your kwoon!

Good jujutsuka operate from the same distance as your ideal chi sao distance, plus any other distances! They go for centreline naturally and not in as contrived a manner and are probably more soft and flowing and adaptable than most chunners.

[jkdninja]

Either learn some grappling or learn some Jeet Kune Do (JKD) which has it's roots and foundations in Wing Chun. In Jeet Kune Do there are traps as well as some grappling. I know wrestling with some BJJ and am currently training in JKD and if someone were to shoot on me I would either knee to the head followed with elbow to the head, side step with kick to the head or just a straight kick to the head as the opponent is coming in. In the real world you would not want to go to the ground as the opponent may have friends that will help. This is were the JKD is very effective for me as we are taught to intercept not only the attack but the intention of the attack. Example: If someone starts to shoot their arms are usually out to their sides with the head down. This leaves the centerline open for attack; yes you do go into the clutch zone but most grapplers expect you to evade or sprawl, not to attack. If you know chi sao then you should know plenty of traps already. As far as going to a horse stance I don't see how you fight from this. Your centerline is open to a hook kick as well as your foot position is terrible for evasion.

Kent

[ronro]

What you just posted, after your initial "learn some grappling" bit was yet more unproven speculation. This time it was JKD based speculation. The whole idea of angling off and hitting on the way in has been tested to death in MMA matches and shown to be very low percentage.

The bottom line is that you have got to actually do lots of standup grappling to get any good at it. Really this means joining a wrestling or judo club and attending classes for a while. A kung fu man with theories will have absolutely zero chance at preventing the takedown of an athletic man who is used to taking people down (wrestler, footballer, rugby player, judoka etc).

This strange idea that there is something "hidden" in kung fu above and beyond what mere wrestling teaches about avoiding takedowns is really rubbish and a very damaging idea in the kung fu community as a whole.

[Knifefighter]

Example: If someone starts to shoot their arms are usually out to their sides with the head down.

LOL!!!

Sounds like you need to find an instructor who has at least a small clue about takedowns:
1- The arms are always up, because this is where your set-ups and defenses come from.
2- The head should never be down because dropping the head keeps you from getting good penetration and nullifies your power for finishing the takedown.

[Asia]

Example: If someone starts to shoot their arms are usually out to their sides with the head down.
Uh NO. That is NOT how you do a proper shoot. The exact opposite is drilled into the first day you learn to wrestle.

Proper shoot is executed with:
-Back straight
- Head up
-Arms going straigh out in front of you.

As for as the topic keep this in mind. Grapplers train to take pple down and defend against it. Therefore they are the best to consult on such matters. And make sure you train with a REAL grappler, not someone who says things like above.

[Liddel]

Wow im still amazed at how alot of martial artist think everything will go as you train.

Im the first one to admit sometimes the best punch doesnt work !
$hit happens, things cant always work in every situation...

I have this in mind when we get into these 'hypothetical' discussions.

I holeheartedly admit i have basic natural responces, i train hard...
BUT they wont work all the time against every person/attacker.

However we have people talking in such absolutes about what would and wouldnt work against a good grappler.

What the hells a good grappler and what makes one think ever grapppler is good at everything.

Kung Fu, Muay Tai, karate, aikido, kali, sambo,silat, every F-kn art has bad users/practitioners, every one of these arts has people that are good at certain aspects of the art and not so good at other aspects of the art.

So when we have a specualtive situation, if we are saying "hypothetically against good grappler" we cant then on the other hand assume that the other fighter in this hypothetical fight, isnt of a good level and awareness.

This is not fair and reasonable.

Someone mentioned that an elbow to the back of the head of someone shooting in wouldnt do much...but if we are assuming in this hypothetical that the grappler is good and it wouldnt be easy to do this we have to IMO, assume also that the other fighter is good with elbows...or whatever his style specialises in or around.

Im no professional fighter nor am i perfect but i have landed light elbows to the back of a grapplers heads during a shoot, because ive had it done to me before i knew how to react and just happened to do it right THIS time ...and it did have good results.... It didnt knock him out, nor stop the fight but it gave me a half second to avoid been taken down.

This is equal on both sides, not every sprawl will stop you from getting taken down. Nor will every elbow land. its less probable but possible, especially with training.

So lets not talk in too much absolutes and when we discuss a hypothetical we must apply the same assumptions to both sides of the equation.

Like i mentioned Anything is possible, in failure and sucess.

[jkdninja]

If you watch wrestlers, the majority, are lax in their shooting postion and will lower the head and let the arms swing wide. Yes I will say that this is not the best or proper way to shoot. How many world class wrestlers will you meet during a fight in the real world. How many people will allow you time to either get the right form or stance during a fight. What if the person has never trained for a takedown and he is Just trying to tackle you and get you to the ground? what if the shoot comes from the side? Many different scenerios with many many different responses.

Asia - I am a real grappler as I have wrestled both freestyle and greco-roman along with BJJ. One should not expect everything to go as trained in the class. This is why you should train for any circumstance. I gave three responses to someone shooting in on me when there are several more different ways/moves to respond with. Angling does work if you are quick enough. If they miss you by an inch or several feet they missed you.

It is the natural instinct to grab someone when close in fighting. this is where the trapping and chi soa from wing chun is most effective. If trained properly you should be able to react/respond from any angle of attack.

Remember MMA and other such tournaments have rules. in a true street fight you do what it takes to survive. This is the only rule. Bite them, pull hair, eye gouge whatever.

Kent

[tjwingchun]

Thought I might spark a response, I welcome them all and will try to justify the comments I have made, but first I think it is important to say a couple of things which may clarify or confuse the matter, lol.

Wing Chun has been part of my life since 1974 and 24/7 since 1984, yet it does not rule my life and at times I don't take myself too seriously, although it is what I do for a living it is still a pastime/hobby to most and even if I have faced life/death situations a few times, the majority who practise martial arts will be fortunate never to come into contact with extreme violent scenarios.

In my mind it is all part of the background ying and yang, nothing mystical just the 'balence of opposites' practical and theoretical, doing and thinking, relaxation and tension, understanding both sides of an argument. Stating and listening, serious and tongue in cheek.

As far as the 'hot and sweaty' comment goes, that was just me making light of the matter, when I first started to teach if nobody fainted or threw up I thought I was not pushing them hard enough, but that was over 20 years ago and my priorities as an instructor have changed.

I have never professed to be MA, though I have followed UFC since the first one and I think it was and still is an important testing ground for those who want to portray themselves as the ultimate warriors whatever the style, I only look at myself as a surviver and in relation to to my history I have been sucessful so far.

I have never said my Wing Chun is better than anyone elses, self knowledge is a different thing, I have spent many years questioning my Wing Chun and not just accepting the words of my Sifu or Sigung, is my Wing Chun 'THE' best, no but it is 'MY' best. All I say to students is that I will try to get them to understand themselves the way I understand myself when using applied body mechanics in relation to violent confrontations, which resembles my viewpoint earlier in this thread, there are no magical techniques, no panacea to every situation.

In real fights the main decisive factor is not the style but the individual, which is where my 'INTENT' comes in and I agree with Mr Punch .

"And with respect, all your talk of INTENTION is bull. Jujutsuka don't train with intention (not this bit)

, because they train to COMPLETE THE ACTION. So how do you reckon chunners training to intend to hurt someone is more realistic than someone training to hurt someone?!"( I don't, I was saying it was a weakness in most Wing Chun)

The COMPLETION you talk of is what I term INTENT, ie that when practising all techniques you should visualise ending it with your opponent no longer being a threat, which is why I was saying the majority of Ju Jitsu have an advantage of most Wing Chun who stop once a technique has done its job, not all but many I have witnessed.

I am also in agreement with Nick about grappling, I have the greatest respect for grappling, the range, the application, the functionality, and how dangerous they are in real fights, yet I still believe in my personal abilities as I have developed my own understanding of grappling via chi sau, can all 'chunners' do it? I cannot say! I know I have done both on the street and in training with highly accomplished grapplers, if I give anyone a chance they can take me out, that is reality, just as if you give any fighter a chance, you are out!

The 'sparring' comments are a bit obtuse and open to discussion also, I use my chi sau as my 'sparring tool', to get into position for what I term 'OFFLOADING TECHNIQUES', I use my 'ENTRY TECHNIQUES' to get me into my chi sau range, but when most people talk of sparring it refers to understanding the closing of the fighting range and landing appropriate techniques, but without full power.

Hence to the statement "Nobody teaches sparring as a separate skill!" I don't teach sparring as most perceive it, but each to their own and I don't deny the majority their choice, in my defence Brendan Ingle who has had many world champion boxers through his gym only allows sparring when he is present or it is supervised and it is kept to a relevantly small part of the training as a whole.

The relevance to my comments about students involved in NHB is to indicate that though it is not my cup of tea, I embrace the questions it raises and do not dismiss it but welcome it into my Wing Chun, without rushing to claim knowledge to add it to my CV.

If anyone thinks they can apply techniques as they wish shows they don't know much about reality, the circumstances that occur on the street and the characters out there defy most peoples understanding of the environment in which they live, I know lads who you can hit with a baseball bat and they will just laugh at you, I generally make the point that there are some out there who practise Origami, and in a real fight will leave you in the shape of a swan! lol.

When I first started teaching a local 'hard lad' told me a bit of advice which I pass on as it gives an insight to the 'street fighter', he told me when in a bar he has never had an argument, plenty of discussions, but when it turned to an argument he would just punch their lights out. This returns back to the understanding of when a fight actually starts, not just the physical process of action but the psychological decision when to begin hitting.

I have tried to clarify a few points but realise there will be further comment and until I have more specific criticism I am going to wait for it to appear, but if you want to relate back to my views on the rattan rings, after all the points raised I still cannot see any use except occupying the mind of a beginner.

Fighting is such a personal skill, all we can be is our best, if we are lucky to survive when we are beaten it gives us the time and inspiration to improve. Take anyone for granted and you will be looking up at them either on you way out or as you wake up.

Remember to keep those smiles going and enjoy what you do. TJ

[jkdninja]

Each fight will be different just as the opponent will be different and will have different energies, strengths and weaknesses. Whether they have proper form or not so proper form you train to survive. No matter the art or style the goal is to finish your opponent with little or no harm to you as quick as possible. One should train for any and all forms. This does not mean train in all forms. Study others arts and you can see where you or your style would need to adapt to survive. I am sure that this will get alot of feed back but as Bruce Lee said "My technique is my opponent's technique. when he expands I contract. When he contracts I expand." Learn to adapt and adapt quickly "just like water. It can sit still, flow or it can crash. Be like water." -Bruce Lee.

Kent

[Knifefighter]

Asia - I am a real grappler as I have wrestled both freestyle and greco-roman along with BJJ.

Hmmm... I've yet to hear someone (other than you) who has real experience with takedowns state that grapplers shoot with their head down and arms out to the side.

Pretty much anyone who has takedown experience knows these are the two big no-no's.

[unkokusai]

Example: If someone starts to shoot their arms are usually out to their sides with the head down.


Um....NO.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

If you watch wrestlers, the majority, are lax in their shooting postion and will lower the head and let the arms swing wide.


Um....NO. :rolleyes:

[jkdninja]

You are looking at wrestlers in the sense of them being in a wrestling match. Look at them from a fighting point. They will and do this. Even in the UFC, Pride or whatever it is the same way. The cause of this is the "fear" of being hit. You can't hit, legally, in a "pure" wrestling match but we are talking a fight situation here. Look at some peole and when they get close to one another or when they throw punches they tend to lean their heads back. Royce Gracie will shoot with his head down yet ****ed a little to the side as if he is turing his head. Is this proper? No!! But again it is a fight not practice or a wrestling match. If you see someone that keeps their head up and arms in when shooting then they have been training very hard and then do not fear the punch. Also in the real world, people are not often trained in the proper mechanics. So yes they will "shoot" with heads down and arms out. AGAIN HEADS DOWN ARMS OUT IS WRONG!!!

Kent

[ronro]

jkdninja, when shooting in it is more protective against strikes to keep good posture and keep your arms in the middle..think "dinosaur arms".

if you duck the head and put the arms out wide you are asking for a knee to the face, or to get sprawled on. Why do you think MMA gyms teach the shoot head up?

[reneritchie]

Sprawling is an incorrect answer to the question.

Everyone knows BJJ has cr@ppy shoots, so there's no need to sprawl.

Now if you're defending against a wrestler...

[Nick Forrer]

Sprawling is an incorrect answer to the question.

Everyone knows BJJ has cr@ppy shoots, so there's no need to sprawl.

Now if you're defending against a wrestler...

Au contraire, my BJJ coach has a shot like a bullet:cool:

[ronro]

why are kung fu people in general so dead set against cross training? it is the sensible option to round out your skills. no single art offers everything.

[unkokusai]

Royce Gracie will shoot with his head down yet ****ed a little to the side as if he is turing his head. Is this proper? No!!


The fact that you use a BJJ guy as your example of how a proper shot is executed says a lot about where you are coming from.

[jkdninja]

Again the trained fighter will shoot correctly and the untrained fighter will duck the head and have the arms open. I am not putting down one style for another. I am simply drawing a comparison of the trained fighter and the "real world" un-trained (often times drunk or on that path) fighter. Even a trained fighter will get sloppy sometimes due to fatigue or just being ****y and careless. Just becasue you know how to shoot and do it correctly does not mean you will succed. The more incorrect the shooting form the easier you can defend and vica versa. Often people will call a bull rush that ends up being a tackle, a shot such as what Tank Abbot does. This is not shooting it is bull rushing. I will say this I think that wrestlers have better shooting abilities than other forms. I say this cause they train more at it. BJJ and other arts train for kicks, punches/hits and submission locks that wrestlers don't train for as most are illegal for that sport. In wrestling you train to stay off your back. Royce Gracie thrives off his back. He gets more submissions from his back than from him being on top. Wrestlers do not train to defend a kick or punch. If they get into MMA then they learn to defend these. Strikers are the same way they train to hit not shoot. No matter who you are if you do not train correctly you will not perform correctly.

Kent

[Lee Chiang Po]

I lurk here, but now I have a question. I was interested in the original post, but have come up on some terms that I am not familiar with. Shoot, Sprawl, and a few that I can not remember. Just what do these terms mean, please?
I have some Wing Chun and Jap Jujitsu training. I find that the Jujitsu training did not give me the best block and parry for entry into techniques. I have also learned that Wing Chun must be good to defend against certain people. Together, they compliment one another very well.
Jap Jujitsu was developed that a smaller, weaker person might defend against someone large and strong. Wing Chun was developed for fighting in tight places. Such as in and on a Chinese junk. It is best for fighting in small passageways and narrow side decks. It would be great for fighting in a phone booth, but confronted in an open area where someone can use highly developed skills it might not be enough.

[jkdninja]

Shoot- it is somewhat like a low tackle but with more control. This is how grapplers will get to your legs, under you or around behind you..

Sprawl- is where someone shoots in on you and as they do this you kinda kick away with your feet to remove your lower body away from the attack while bringing your upper body onto the person shooting. You should have hand/arm contact with the person shooting. this is typical of a forward shoot that is straight on at you. A side shoot, more than likely they are going for one leg and not both with this one, you could angle away from or pivot away. Also with a sprawl you may just go to the ground and pop back up if you kick to far away. think of grass drills in football and that will give you some idea.

Anyone have a better definitions oe example?

Kent

[tjwingchun]

why are kung fu people in general so dead set against cross training? it is the sensible option to round out your skills. no single art offers everything.

Sorry to agree and disagree, but such is the state of my mind after 30+ years of Wing Chun, I am not against others cross training, I have look at many other styles tried Aikido and Choi Lee Fut, could never get away with Karate, appreciate boxing and Ju Jitsu, but I see all they can offer within the parameters of my forms and chi sau, it is only up to me to realise where they are hidden.

Every art offers everything it just depends how long and how hard you look.

Lee Chiang Po forget the history of Wing Chun it is 'JUNK' Wing Chun is simply the understanding of personal body mechanics related to violent confrontation, also there is no such thing as a long range fighting system as you have to get close enough to hit them unless you have a stick/sword/gun/bomb/throwing weapon

[Fajing]

where someone can use highly developed skills it might not be enough.

HUH:confused: :confused: :confused:

What exactly are those? Do they involve a 12 gauge or possibly a Glock?

[Lee Chiang Po]

That was a perfect explanation of Shoot and Sprawl. I am very familiar with both, just not the terms used.
As for Wing Chun, I do not know the history. Just as I was told. The man that taught me came from China in 1949, died at 86 years in 1965. He was actually a boxer during the revolution. It was he that explained to me that it was developed to fight in very small places. And it makes good sense to me. I guess that since my first MA was Jap Jujitsu, I was cross training to Wing Chun. I was JJJ trained by a Jap man that came here after the war in 1950. I met him in 1956.
Chi Sau was a game the children played. It was to develop Chi. I suppose that it did, but I did not do it. It is something that is done between 2 Wing Chun trained people. In my lifetime the only Wing Chun people I have met were those that I trained. I have never come up on another person that was even MA trained. I have worked as a printer, but in off time I would work as a bouncer or a companion. That is a soft term for body guard.
I also agree that there is no such thing as long range fighting. One must enter your personal space in order to cause you pain. And if he gets that close, he is within your range. However, in my work I have come upon individuals that did not need to be trained in a MA to be dangerous. Size, strength, and aggressive attitude was enough. There are individuals that are self trained in simple street techniques that would run right over someone like Bruce Lee. Believe me, that is no exageration.

[stricker]

theres other takedowns to consider besides shoots like from the clinch.

to answer the question. i think if your stance and footwork is sheet hot thatll get you a long way to not being takendown, or if you can bring the fight to them, really use your chisao to keep from getting clinched or control the clinch and hit the crap outta them then that could work too.

but with a determined well rounded mma fighter who has good stand up and can shoot using hands as a set up for a level change or clinch, who switches round your leg knows to drive in different directions etc (instead of just going for a straight forward double leg and nowhere to go after that fails) then your probably going down sooner or later and again if they buried their head proper probably without much damage.

im sure there are wing chun people out there who are a ***** to take down. all this crosstraining stuff (like i do) might not be needed as im sure there are wing chun people who can hang with boxers, on the ground, etc etc buuut.... how do you personally get there? so (people like tjwingchun not to pick on you personally) even if your wing chun is the mutts nutts the question really is are you going on blind assumption or do you actually know whats up with a good takedown artists game or a modern mma fighter?

[Knifefighter]

Shoot- it is somewhat like a low tackle but with more control.

Not even close.


Sprawl- is where someone shoots in on you and as they do this you kinda kick away with your feet to remove your lower body away from the attack while bringing your upper body onto the person shooting. You should have hand/arm contact with the person shooting. this is typical of a forward shoot that is straight on at you. A side shoot, more than likely they are going for one leg and not both with this one, you could angle away from or pivot away. Also with a sprawl you may just go to the ground and pop back up if you kick to far away. think of grass drills in football and that will give you some idea.

A little better, but someone with takedown experience should be able to give a better explanation that this.

Methinks you need a better wrestling coach.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have found this sort of attack to be common among untrained fighters. In a long line of altercations in one establishment where I was employed, the shoot as you call it, was the opener just about every time. The idea was to take down the opponent and beat him senseless while stradling him. In all the fights I have witnessed where this was used, no one was ever able to counter this simple move. The fight would simply go to the floor where they would roll around or one would pummel the other. Jujitsu trains this move and counter, although a bit more sofistecated. I am not plugging Jujitsu on a Wing Chun forum, but merely saying that it would not hurt one to round out his defense capabilities by adding a bit of Jujitsu to it.

[Merryprankster]

Lee Chiang Po,

The type of takedown you are describing is what I refer to as the "drunken frat boy tackle."

It bears as much resemblence to a wrestling-style shot/shoot as the drunken frat boy roundhouse swipe bears to a left hook. (BTW, SHOOT is a verb. SHOT is the noun and the past tense...sorry...had to get that off my chest...I had NEVER heard anybody mix that up until wrestlers began dealing in the MMA world...)

Anyway the below video clip is a shot. You will need Real Audio Player or some player that can deal with that format to view it.

http://www.wrestlingsbest.com/movies/gut-doubleleg01.ra

Note the excellent balance and strong finishing posture.

The sprawl is a move where you block the incoming person with your arms in some way, then move your hips and legs explosively behind you, out of reach. You may land on your opponent or not, depending on the circumstances and your goals.

Here is a decent video clip of a sprawl. The person sprawling eventually gets taken down anyway (because the person getting sprawled on executes a BEAUTIFUL sit through go behind), but you'll get the idea.

The "sprawl" has kind of already taken place at this point, but you can see how the person defending the takedown has their legs back and hips low and is trying to stuff the opponent's face into the ground...

Of course, if he hadn't let the guy get that deep under his hips he'd be a lot better off in the first place :). But such is the nature of combative arts and sports...

http://www.wrestlingsbest.com/movies/m-sprawltotakedown01.mpeg

[Mr Punch]

I lurk here...Welcome out man! :)
I have some Wing Chun and Jap Jujitsu training. Since we're talking terminology, I'm not going to lecture you here, and I appreciate you're from a different generation, but in my experience and that of most of my friends (I live in Tokyo) 'Jap' is a deregatory abbreviation.
Together, they compliment one another very well. Agreed.


Shoot- it is somewhat like a low tackle but with more control.



Not even close.Enlightening as usual. Care to define it youself? Your criticism depends on his use of 'somewhat'!

Merry, interesting point about the grammar of 'shoot' and 'shot': in the shooto school where I train(ed?!) it's all just known as 'a shoot'. I know that's in Japan but it seems common currency in many places in the fight world. Like it or not ol timer, that's the evolution of language for ya! :D

Lee Chiang Po, as Merry said a drunken tackle is quite different to a shoot, but a bad shoot sometimes looks something like a drunken tackle! Practising defence against a shoot will help you against a drunken tackle but the opposite doesn't apply.

[Mr Punch]

Thought I might spark a response...Very good post. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position. :)

[unkokusai]

And it makes good sense to me. I guess that since my first MA was Jap Jujitsu, I was cross training to Wing Chun. I was JJJ trained by a Jap man that came here after the war in 1950. .


Do you call Chinese people 'Chi'? Do you call Spanish people 'Spa'?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Mr. Punch,
I lurk here...Welcome out man! :) I have some Wing Chun and Jap Jujitsu training. Since we're talking terminology, I'm not going to lecture you here, and I appreciate you're from a different generation, but in my experience and that of most of my friends (I live in Tokyo) 'Jap' is a deregatory abbreviation. Together, they compliment one another very well. Agreed.

> I do not know why it would be offensive. I was introduced to the man and he refered to himself as a Jap man. It is only short for Japanese. I suppose that times do change. Anyway, it is not meant to be a slur. He was a dear friend to me.<

Shoot- it is somewhat like a low tackle but with more control.


Not even close.Enlightening as usual. Care to define it youself? Your criticism depends on his use of 'somewhat'!

> Actually, I do have my own technique for this. I usually use a fake to draw the opponents attention to his upper defenses. As I close I suddenly drop and with one hand fake a punch and with the other grab for an ankle and then rush him as I pull the ankle toward me. This is done so quickly that the man has little time to react because he is already trying to react to what he thought was the real attack. That does not make sense does it?<


Merry, interesting point about the grammar of 'shoot' and 'shot': in the shooto school where I train(ed?!) it's all just known as 'a shoot'. I know that's in Japan but it seems common currency in many places in the fight world. Like it or not ol timer, that's the evolution of language for ya! :D

> There is a lot of language that I am not familiar with. Over the years I have not concerned myself with the Fight World as such. I have never wanted to compete in this way. So the terms are not known to me. My skills, if you would call them that, are strictly for self defense. I have been the aggressor a time or two, but in all other instances it was purely a matter of self defense. This shoot is an aggressive attach technique. I suppose that in a fight compitition a person would practice this move in order to be able to use it or counter it. I have trained for this in the past, but it is not the way I would respond to aggression. In my case it would be a completely different scenario than facing off an opponent in a fight ring.<

Lee Chiang Po, as Merry said a drunken tackle is quite different to a shoot, but a bad shoot sometimes looks something like a drunken tackle! Practising defence against a shoot will help you against a drunken tackle but the opposite doesn't apply.

> Yes, I fully understand what you are saying. Indeed. But in my world, the average fighter is a drunken tackle. I would probably not fare well in a fight ring with a trained fighter. He would know, or at least suspect the potential of my danger to himself, and this alone would change the proceedings. But if we were in confrontation in another setting and he did not know me or realize that I might pose a threat to him, he would be at a serious disadvantage.<

[unkokusai]

> I do not know why it would be offensive. I was introduced to the man and he refered to himself as a Jap man. It is only short for Japanese. I suppose that times do change. Anyway, it is not meant to be a slur. He was a dear friend to me.<


Then you will honor that spirit of friendship by not using that term anymore.:mad:

[unkokusai]

Merry, interesting point about the grammar of 'shoot' and 'shot': in the shooto school where I train(ed?!) it's all just known as 'a shoot'. I know that's in Japan but it seems common currency in many places in the fight world. Like it or not ol timer, that's the evolution of language for ya!


No, among the majority of the wrestling community (and ALL of the grammar community) the noun form is 'shot'.

[Mr Punch]

That quote came from me not LCP...
No, among the majority of the wrestling community (and ALL of the grammar community) the noun form is 'shot'.Give it up old man!
:p Quick check on google reveals about half and half usage of shoot as a noun and a verb, with as you say most of the wrestling community using 'shot' as a noun... don't think I'm taking my grammar cues from the rabble of illiterate net-users (! :D :eek: ) but just accept it - language changes!

[Mr Punch]

> I do not know why it would be offensive. I was introduced to the man and he refered to himself as a Jap man. It is only short for Japanese. I suppose that times do change. Anyway, it is not meant to be a slur. He was a dear friend to me.<I believe you mentioned 1956: in those days it would have perfectly acceptable in many places to use the word n!gger... it's not acceptable now though, right!

I don't know why 'Jap' became offensive though I suspect it was round the time of internment during the War along with 'Nip'... anyway, on this board and other fight boards JJJ is usually used for Japanese ju jutsu and I personally use J'nese if I'm feeling really lazy for 'Japanese'.

[tjwingchun]

im sure there are wing chun people out there who are a ***** to take down. all this crosstraining stuff (like i do) might not be needed as im sure there are wing chun people who can hang with boxers, on the ground, etc etc buuut.... how do you personally get there? so (people like tjwingchun not to pick on you personally) even if your wing chun is the mutts nutts the question really is are you going on blind assumption or do you actually know whats up with a good takedown artists game or a modern mma fighter?

Don't mind being picked on at all, it is as I have said before, if I cannot justify myself then I have no place making myself heard!

I know a lot of Wing Chun lads who do cross-training and many who have been through many arts before finding Wing Chun so have prior knowledge of some of the styles you mention but it is a very relevant question about "...how do you personally get there."

Personally I think many of my personal attributes come from varied not MA experiences, I played rugby and though 6' and when younger only about 150 pounds (doing the USA conversion, lol) I was faced with having to stop 6'6", 280 pound meat heads who were trying to run me over and they would be smiling as they sprinted at me but once a carefully positioned shoulder in the solar plexus they lay on the floor doing sea lion impressions gasping for air after being winded.

While at University I would leap around on the disco floor doing flashy kicks, spins and generally making a fool of myself to the music (it was late 70's to early 80's), as any non-sensible student does, lol.

Working as a Doorman put me on the frontline and involved in fights on a very regular basis and the area in which I was born and still live has a bit of a reputation in the North East of England for being, lets say, not too polite.

Rugby taught me many things and dancing like a loon made me aware of my legs, while being faced with real violence teaches humility and a sense of vulnerability.

Now to the point, do I get my students to follow my path in life to gain my experiences, or do I question what has created me, recognise and isolate the good bits and find ways of training my students so that they can achieve similar understanding.

Well that is the route I have followed for many years now, the extension of my knowledge into the areas of take down and grappling has mainly come from having to stand up to 'questions' from students with prior knowledge who come to me initially with little respect for my abilities as they want instruction not mystic diatribe, generally they then stay with me as they appreciate that I have something to offer.

I have a student who trained in a very hard school of Ju Jitsu for over 13 years, once in sparring he had his shoulder fractured and every weekend he would be street-fighting; his first lesson with me I was showing the structure of a Pak Sau (slap block) and he kicked me in the knee! That was some 4-5 years ago he still travels over a 100 miles to train with me regularily and he feels more relaxed with the violence I teach rather than living with the aggression he was used to.

Another student who has been training with me on and off for about 12 years got into Gracie Ju Jitsu and graded to blue belt, he then became interested in competing on the MMA circuit, he once again came back to me and we shared a gym so that he could practise his grappling skills and question me as to my thoughts on NHB fighting, he thinks I don't have the right philosophy for the 'sport' as I just look to push the rules as far as I can and break the vulnerable parts of the body; my attitude if someone is trying to give me brain-damage, then I will try to disable them. He has since with my blessing joined another school as they are set up as a competitive NHB unit and he has like minded souls to 'play' with.


Lee Chiang Po, my opinion, and it is only my lowly thoughts is that Wing Chun was created by Leung Jan, but he used the local legend of Yim Wing Chun and Ng Mui the give a legitate link to the Shoalin system, as I say just one of my wierd thought processes.

[unkokusai]

don't think I'm taking my grammar cues from the rabble of illiterate net-users (! :D :eek: ) but just accept it - language changes!

You just cited 'Google' as your source, so I guess you are "taking (your) grammar cues from the rabble of illiterate net-users":rolleyes:


Language does change over time, but on a larger scale than lazy kids would like to believe. Its not a free pass to butcher the language.

[stricker]

Don't mind being picked on at all, it is as I have said before, if I cannot justify myself then I have no place making myself heard!

dont be so harsh man its a discussion!!!


While at University I would leap around on the disco floor doing flashy kicks, spins and generally making a fool of myself to the music (it was late 70's to early 80's), as any non-sensible student does, lol.

:D


Working as a Doorman put me on the frontline and involved in fights on a very regular basis and the area in which I was born and still live has a bit of a reputation in the North East of England for being, lets say, not too polite.
......
Another student who has been training with me on and off for about 12 years got into Gracie Ju Jitsu and graded to blue belt, he then became interested in competing on the MMA circuit, he once again came back to me and we shared a gym so that he could practise his grappling skills and question me as to my thoughts on NHB fighting, he thinks I don't have the right philosophy for the 'sport' as I just look to push the rules as far as I can and break the vulnerable parts of the body; my attitude if someone is trying to give me brain-damage, then I will try to disable them. He has since with my blessing joined another school as they are set up as a competitive NHB unit and he has like minded souls to 'play' with.

if youve done the bouncer bit or had lots of real fights etc then you dont need the mma thing as youve tested and proved your own abilities for real. that deserves respect. for me the main attraction to mma is the concentration on bread and butter basics of fighting and the ability to learn and test yourself progressively thats a good compromise of realism and safety.

[Liddel]

MMA by definition is Mixed.

Having either Wrestling or stricking skills on thier own, is half way there IMO....

So why do people keep on posting with the POV BJJ or JJJ is enough.
The same can be said of VT, but i find VT people here at least recognise this FACT.
(although not ALL :cool: )

[Mr Punch]

You just cited 'Google' as your source, so I guess you are "taking (your) grammar cues from the rabble of illiterate net-users":rolleyes:Iya, chigau. Observing a phenomenon is distinct to being a part of it or even condoning it.


Language does change over time, but on a larger scale than lazy kids would like to believe. Its not a free pass to butcher the language.Agreed. Unfortunately I teach Queen's English, but she ain't passin no tests! Even more unfortunately, the net is having a larger influence on the language than any other media/literary phenomena in history I would say. Again, that's not an endorsement.

Anyway, I was taught about the 'shoot' by my 'shooto' teacher, an American trained in Hong Kong, Thailand and Japan. He's also a part-time English teacher, though he does lean more to ebonics. There are more Englishes than most people know from their own countries, and some language changes are happening whether we like them or not.

Now do you think we could get any more off-topic? :D

[unkokusai]

Observing a phenomenon is distinct to being a part of it or even condoning it.

Disingenuous spin doesn't reflect well on anyone. Give it a rest.


Agreed. Unfortunately I teach Queen's English, but she ain't passin no tests! Even more unfortunately, the net is having a larger influence on the language than any other media/literary phenomena in history I would say. Again, that's not an endorsement.

Anyway, I was taught about the 'shoot' by my 'shooto' teacher, an American trained in Hong Kong, Thailand and Japan. He's also a part-time English teacher, though he does lean more to ebonics. There are more Englishes than most people know from their own countries, and some language changes are happening whether we like them or not.

Almost all of which has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

[tjwingchun]

Don't know about respect for being a bouncer or getting into fights but I appreciate the inference, reality is its own teacher. I retired from 'bouncing' because I ended up working with too many 'animals' who took advantage of their position to kick the cr@p out of drunken 18 year olds rather than being there to stop fights.

I feel this thread is becoming a bit stagnant because of the nature of the question being somewhat ambiguous, also it has me thinking that is is more NHB orientated as in reality you will not find out the experience of your assailant until it is too late, unless they are already known to you.

If your fight's, as most are, planned well in advance then it would be wise to investigate and study past fights if possible to gain whatever knowledge you can about an opponents personal preferences for closing and favourite techniques. If not then my advice would be to work on your own strengths and let the opponent worry about what you are going to do! When I was playing rugby, when all my team mates were in a huddle doing warm-up exercises, I would stand by myself near the halfway line, identify my opposite number and just stare at him like I was going to rip his head off and then once the game started hit him (legally) as hard as I could to leave him with the idea of what the next 80 minutes had install for him, lol.

Intimidation is a large part of confrontations, confidence is a major aspect of self-defence, bullies are attracted to victims who don't appear a threat to them, then on the other hand so called hard-men will target quiet big guys without warning to send a message those around them that they are dangerous.

My response, as I have already said, to an attack which is of a high level of threat and by an accomplished fighter will generally be kick to shin/knee/pelvis, strike to eyes/throat/neck, punch to head/solar plexus/lower abs and elbow to nose/side of head/back of head. well that takes care of the first two seconds what happens after that can only be discussed in that most intellectual of places, hindsight.

In competition I advise people to make the collar bones an early target as they are relatively to break and once accomplished make the opponents ability to hurt you rather deminished. Which is also why I target the pelvis as it is only held together in the middle by cartilage and is a rather weak structure when attacked from the front. As I said earlier study the rule of the competition and identify the weak areas not protected and use them until they change the rules.

[Knifefighter]

In competition I advise people to make the collar bones an early target as they are relatively to break and once accomplished make the opponents ability to hurt you rather deminished. Which is also why I target the pelvis as it is only held together in the middle by cartilage and is a rather weak structure when attacked from the front.

LOL!!
You can always tell the training "bubble boys" who don’t really test their stuff.

The clavicle (collarbone) is very hard to break with a strike. It usually breaks only upon a severe fall. I’ve been fighting full contact stick fighting for years and have been hit there with tremendous force with some big @ss sticks, as well as seen the same happen to numerous other fighters. So far, no breaks... and I can pretty much guarantee you cannot strike with the same force with your hand or fist as a 200+ lb trained stick fighter.

The hip joint is THE most stable joint in the body. Thai fighters have been targeting the hip with front kicks for centuries and a hip injury from this is almost unheard of.

LOL @ thinking these things are easy to do

[Mr Punch]

Almost all of which has nothing to do with the matter at hand.As in the use of chun against shoots/shots? Or as in the grammar? If it's the latter, then it does, as I'm continuing the observation. Observation doesn't have to have a value judgment attached.

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who cares: why should I care if you think I'm putting a spin on something? :) I am fiercely protectionist of the parts of language I feel to be important. This is not one of them. All I did in the first place was to comment on the phenomena: I'm not interested in justifying my position, because I haven't made a value judgment, and nor do I think it's important to do so in this case (so there in itself is my value judgment :p ).

And if language is as all-important as you seem to be making out, remind me why I'm even in a semi-serious dialogue with someone who has chosen your screen name! :D


Merry, interesting point about the grammar of 'shoot' and 'shot': in the shooto school where I train(ed?!) it's all just known as 'a shoot'. I know that's in Japan but it seems common currency in many places in the fight world. Like it or not ol timer, that's the evolution of language for ya!


No, among the majority of the wrestling community (and ALL of the grammar community) the noun form is 'shot'.People in the Manila use different English to those in Singapore, which is again different to downtown LA and London. I've already agreed the majority of the wrestling community use it as you said, which is a technical expression used by a minority, and as often happens when that kind of expression crosses over into common use it changes.

So, while you're right in your observation, I'm also right in mine. And I'm still not making a judgment as to whether it's right or wrong... although 'in the grammar community', if you want to look at the 2000 ed of the American Heritage dictionary you will see that 'shoot' is acceptable as a noun also for any action that drives or propels quickly or suddenly (paraphrasing): so there's a standard use, and there's no entry for the technical jargon.


In competition I advise people to make the collar bones an early target as they are relatively to break and once accomplished make the opponents ability to hurt you rather deminished.How many of your competitive fighters have accomplished this?

As a (ex-)rugby player you must know how much damage the collarbone can take?

[anerlich]

In competition I advise people to make the collar bones an early target as they are relatively to break and once accomplished make the opponents ability to hurt you rather deminished. Which is also why I target the pelvis as it is only held together in the middle by cartilage and is a rather weak structure when attacked from the front.

Jeez, man, it's a sporting contest not a death match. Are you sure it's healthy teaching people to seriously damage their opponents for a place in a team or a trophy? If so, coach and competitor both need some counselling.

If you tried this sort of thing on in any decently run tournament, you'd be disqualified and also probably arrested, and rightly so.

[Knifefighter]

If you tried this sort of thing on in any decently run tournament, you'd be disqualified and also probably arrested, and rightly so.

Actually, both of those things (striking the clavicle and kicking to the hip) would be legal in any MMA match- precisely because it is relatively hard to injure your opponent with either of these.

[anerlich]

Actually, both of those things (striking the clavicle and kicking to the hip) would be legal in any MMA match- precisely because it is relatively hard to injure your opponent with either of these.

It's hard to argue with that - I've seen a fair number of shoulder dislocations, but no broken collarbones. Nor any injuries to pelvis or hips, though knee and ankle injuries are legion. Perhaps we'd need the "my techniques are too deadly for competition" crowd actually front up for this to ever happen.

Surely a good left hook or right cross to the button would be both easier to pull off and higher percentage.

What I take issue with is the mindset that you go into a sporting contest with the aim of seriously injuring your opponent. IMO a good ref would disqualify your a$$ for such conduct, within the letter of the rules or no.

[reneritchie]

Didn't Vanderlais break Sak's collar bone when he slammed him in their 2nd fight?

(Come to think of it, having Sak and Jackson fight Vanderlais more than once each probably shows that, at least in Japan, they have very little regard for trauma to legal targets...)

[Knifefighter]

Didn't Vanderlais break Sak's collar bone when he slammed him in their 2nd fight?

Breaking a clavicle from a slam isn't that uncommon.
What is hard to do is breaking one from a strike.

[Liddel]

Breaking a clavicle from a slam isn't that uncommon.
What is hard to do is breaking one from a strike.

Ive seen many breaks of the clavicle on the rugby field and its not easy to use your arms after.

What a way to win a fight, break each side with your superior stricking skills then the opponents a sitting duck :cool:

TJwingchun your Kick a$$ :o you guys must win all the tourny's :rolleyes:

[tjwingchun]

LOL!!
You can always tell the training "bubble boys" who don’t really test their stuff.

The clavicle (collarbone) is very hard to break with a strike. It usually breaks only upon a severe fall. I’ve been fighting full contact stick fighting for years and have been hit there with tremendous force with some big @ss sticks, as well as seen the same happen to numerous other fighters. So far, no breaks... and I can pretty much guarantee you cannot strike with the same force with your hand or fist as a 200+ lb trained stick fighter.

The hip joint is THE most stable joint in the body. Thai fighters have been targeting the hip with front kicks for centuries and a hip injury from this is almost unheard of.

LOL @ thinking these things are easy to do

Right from the start I knew this thread would start getting ravelled up purely because we only know ourselves and can relate to our own experiences.

I don't know about being a "bubble boy" and the only way I got away with not going to gaol for kicking my way into a blokes house to confront him as he had been threatening to get guns put to peoples heads and petrifying an 8 year old girl. I just gave him a couple of slaps and that was all that was needed to have him crying (30 year old ex-army), next thing I am arrested for aggravated burgalry (starts at 7 years), though I was told I could claim preventative self-defence!

The prosecution took on board my 30+ years of MA experience and what I could have done to him, ie put his head up against a wall and elbow it, now I can smash a coconut from 1/2" with a palm strike, I can go through 3" of wood (3x1" boards not separated) with my elbow from 10" away without pulling back (can you do that with a stick?). I pleaded guilty and was fined £50, if I had used my full capability I would be looking at a life sentence.

I have been punched and kicked in the head, head-butted, had parts of a paving brick smashed off my head, but the only time I have ever been knocked out (apart from anesthetic) was by a 250 pound, shaven headed steroid freak who did Michael Flatterly impressions on my face while I was stopping one his mates biting a friends nose off, while another was also taking bites out of his back.

That is my "bubble world" that I live!!

The hip is not the target I was intimating at, and the Thai's focal point is not the hip itself but the top of the femur just under the 'knuckle', which as the growing part is the weakest, I target the front of the pelvis with either kick or fist, as it is a cartilaginous fixed joint and relatively weak.

Though I agree I have not competed in the ring (too old and body too wreaked) it does not exclude me from having an opinion, Alex, who now trains with Alan says I don't have the sports mentality and I cannot deny that, as already stated I am a survivalist.

I make no apology for my way of thinking and it is my view that it is not me who needs counselling, I am not the one who beat his friends up on a weekly basis for a laugh !!!! lol.

When I watched Alex's first fight, which along with Aaron's on the same night (IMO) was won with an uppercut straight from Biu Gee to the floating ribs, in the rest of the fights I was amazed by the number of missed opportunities to finish fights, but all the way through the card amateur/semi-pro/pro they were too greedy for the head and fixated with punching. When I asked Alex he merely said that it was because they did not have my experience, but to a "bubble boy" it is those opportunities that instructors should be making fighters aware of. I am not talking complex strategies, simply if a target is exposed hit it with what is closest.

We all live in our own little worlds and we all have our way of learning to deal with things, my attitude is to give a student as much information as possible and let them find their own way of problem solving, the more diverse the knowledge the better able they are to make their own decisions.

By fully understanding violence we can choose not to be intimidated into physical action, if all we know is aggression then when confronted by aggression a fight is almost inevitable.

If anybody comes to me for advice I give it, ask a question I will try to answer it as best I can, and when offered beer I say how many, lol.

Bye for now

[Knifefighter]

and what I could have done to him, ie put his head up against a wall and elbow it, now I can smash a coconut from 1/2" with a palm strike, I can go through 3" of wood (3x1" boards not separated) with my elbow from 10" away without pulling back (can you do that with a stick?).
What you "could have done", what you can to to inanimate objects and what you could actually do to a trained opponent in a fight are completely different things. To think that the first two relate to the third shows that yes, you are, indeed, living in a bubble.


Though I agree I have not competed in the ring (too old and body too wreaked) it does not exclude me from having an opinion, Alex, who now trains with Alan says I don't have the sports mentality and I cannot deny that, as already stated I am a survivalist.
Your body is too old and decrepit to beat sport fighters under rules that would keep you from getting seriously hurt by these fighters, but somehow, your body would rise to the occasion and you would somehow beat these same fighters in "survival mode"...

Yeah, right.


When I watched Alex's first fight, which along with Aaron's on the same night (IMO) was won with an uppercut straight from Biu Gee to the floating ribs, in the rest of the fights I was amazed by the number of missed opportunities to finish fights, but all the way through the card amateur/semi-pro/pro they were too greedy for the head and fixated with punching. I am not talking complex strategies, simply if a target is exposed hit it with what is closest.
Anyone who believes they can pull off all these techniques that fighters are unable to do, but hasn't actually done it in the same type of setting is pretty much living in a little fantasy bubble world.


The hip is not the target I was intimating at, and the Thai's focal point is not the hip itself but the top of the femur just under the 'knuckle', which as the growing part is the weakest, I target the front of the pelvis with either kick or fist, as it is a cartilaginous fixed joint and relatively weak.
You’ve never competed in sport-contact venues, so you’ve never tried this technique there. If you were blowing out your students hips or having them do it to each other with this technique, they would be spending much of their time in the hospital and you probably wouldn’t have any students left by now… that rules that option out.

So, basically, this is just another theoretical technique that really never gets tested out…

Sounds pretty bubblish to me.

By the way, the cartilage junctions at the anterior portion of the hip girdle are extremely stable and next to impossible to separate with something like a kick.

[gabe]

Careful, KF, regardless of what he argues, he may have had more real world experience than you!

[Knifefighter]

Careful, KF, regardless of what he argues, he may have had more real world experience than you!

Maybe, but based on his posts, I doubt it.

[Asia]

The socalled "survivalists" mentality. They are akin to the "punching bag heros" of boxing community. These are pple that can wear out a heavy back but when it comes to a live opponent they get mauled. Stationary breaking has little to do with you what you think you can do to a person. During my time in MA, especially in Kyokushin, I've done alot of breaking. Wood, tiles, bricks, cinder blocks, coconuts, ice, etc. Do don't have the time to focus of a single strike when your opponent isn't stationary.

[tjwingchun]

My view has always been and always will be is that if you know you are in a fight what are you waiting for! If you wait for a BJJ, they will ground you and choke you out, a boxer will punch you out, Thai boxers or TKD will kick you out, if they have any advantages do not play in their back gardens, understand YOUR abilities and apply them where YOU feel best suited.



If we are talking real fighting or recreational activities, we all have different preferences, ideologies and freedom of choice, I believe I have it said before and I will say it many times in the future, what is important is the understanding of SELF.



I have never professed to be MA, though I have followed UFC since the first one and I think it was and still is an important testing ground for those who want to portray themselves as the ultimate warriors whatever the style, I only look at myself as a survivor and in relation to my history I have been successful so far.



I have never said my Wing Chun is better than anyone else’s, self knowledge is a different thing, I have spent many years questioning my Wing Chun and not just accepting the words of my Sifu or Sigung, is my Wing Chun 'THE' best, no but it is 'MY' best.



I have the greatest respect for grappling, the range, the application, the functionality, and how dangerous they are in real fights.



If anyone thinks they can apply techniques as they wish shows they don't know much about reality



Fighting is such a personal skill, all we can be is our best, if we are lucky to survive when we are beaten it gives us the time and inspiration to improve. Take anyone for granted and you will be looking up at them either on you way out or as you wake up.



Every art offers everything it just depends how long and how hard you look.
Working as a Doorman put me on the frontline and involved in fights on a very regular basis and the area in which I was born and still live has a bit of a reputation in the North East of England for being, lets say, not too polite. Intimidation is a large part of confrontations, confidence is a major aspect of self-defence



Though I agree I have not competed in the ring (too old and body too wreaked) it does not exclude me from having an opinion.



By fully understanding violence we can choose not to be intimidated into physical action, if all we know is aggression then when confronted by aggression a fight is almost inevitable.


Looking back through what I have contributed to this thread, apart from a few 'tongue in cheek' wind-ups, I thought I was basically saying that real fighting is a great leveller, it is not so much dependant on style as the individuals involved and the particular circumstances of the moment, IMO Wing Chun helps to increase the % chance of surviving a violent confrontation, as all MA's do, I am, not suprisingly, biased toward Wing Chun after 30+ years practise.

My views that certain parts of the body are more vulnerable than others I still think valid, though I fully concur with the Bruce Lee adage that "boards don't hit back", and that moving targets are difficult to contact, but that is what chi sau is for, to control your opponent and to tie him up for a split second to give you the time to 'offload', but I know I have inch energy that can be expressed in fist, palm, or elbow, not forgetting foot, knee and head lol, maybe not to knockout but a distraction at least.

As to my personal experience and ability, again I understand and have no problems with the views of any here, the internet is full of people who make false claims about themselves, not just in this forum, it is rife throughout. I have the respect of many who know me, not just my students and fellow instructors (senior & junior), but those I worked with and socialise with, and that is enough for me.

Humour is a big part of my life, which is why though Wing Chun is a major aspect of how I live it is still nothing to get too worked up about, when I start taking it too seriously then it must mean that there is not enough alcohol in my system and it need topped up, lol.:eek:

I have intimated that I do live in a "bubble" and happy to be so, I have a relaxed life and a smile on my face most of the time and I will continue to live with my rose tinted glasses on until it bursts, then it is the time to see if I have what it takes, but until then I will continue to enjoy my existance.

Bye for now.:D

[Mr Punch]

Ive seen many breaks of the clavicle on the rugby field I must have been blessed. In ten years I never saw one. And no, I'm not taking the ****, I'm just saying.

[tjwingchun]

Samuel Kwok and Carlson Gracie - Double Impact Seminar

If a master like Samuel Kwok went through the trouble of putting on a seminar with one of the worlds best ground fighters, don't you think it's worth your time to find out why?

This is a must-have for any Wing Chun practitioner. It opens with Carlson Gracie saying he has seen many martial arts over the years, but Master Kwok's Wing Chun is really, really great. So much so that he wants to incorporate it into his teachings for the UFC and other NHB/MMA tournaments.

The Wing Chun teachers also found out that many jiu-jitsu positions allow you to use use Wing Chun beautifully on the ground. Vale-Tudo and NHB isn't for everyone, but for many it is a great opportunity to show off Wing Chun in an environment like Pride or UFC.

Kwok starts off the seminar with some Wing Chun stand-up. I think I enjoyed this more than anything because I got to see him hit people for real. Watching techniques in a class setting and seeing them in a more real environment really makes a difference. It really caused me to reconsider my opinion on a few matters. Here is what is covered:

* How power comes from the whole body, and not the arms.
* How we don't tense until the last moment and stay relaxed throughout and how this allows us to have power at a very close range.
* The most important thing is: __________ He talks a bit on this subject...
* How we always come forward and try to control one of his arms.
* Then they pad up and demonstrate most things from here out with a little power and with hitting one another.
* Pak Sao entry with Follow-ups.
* How to use footwork to get out of the way.
* Technique: How to take the back and take the man down.
* Technique: Tan or Bil Sao and Punch vs a lead right that isn't straight.
* A number of full contact techniques quickly demo'ed.
* How to use the side hammer fist.
* Shows how to close the gap when they retreat vs trying to chase in the Wing Chun stance and chain punching. Even though I am from a different lineage I liked this and adapted what I saw and used it the same night!
* Technique: How to quickly take the guy down with an arm bar and kick him in the face!
* Teaches Seminar students (and you) how to properly chain punch.
* He does some more drills with Lop and Taun and then demonstrates the applications in more techniques.
* Even more demo's of techniques with full contact by Kwok and students.
* Technique: How to handle the boxers right cross.
* Shows which way to evade for maximum success depending on how the guy comes at you.
* Technique: How to counter a hook/ headlock attempt.
* Technique: How to counter a double leg takedown.

The Carlson Gracie takes the floor and starts off by talking about how many great fighters and experience fighters get finished in a guillotine.

* Technique: He then goes into a couple counters for the guillotine without strength, including how to counter if the guy is big and strong.
* Technique: How to break your attacker's wrist when he grabs both arms at the elbows to control you.
* Technique: How to create space from the guard to avoid getting punches then arm crank your opponent.
* The students practice this technique for a while and you see the wing chun people giving the grapplers a hard time. Then Gracie explains this technique in more detail.
* Technique. Start from the mount, your opponent turns over and you take his back, grape-vinning his legs, he rolls over again and you choke him out.
* Technique: Learn how to go from the mount to an arm bar.
* More practice, then:
* a Q&A session: You can't hear all the questions, but you can hear the answers and he demo's a few.

Overall I liked this seminar a lot. This is a very rare seminar, and it is very rare to get chance to learn from two greatest masters at the same time. Grab this chance to have your own DVD copy.

http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Samuel-Kwok-Carlson-Gracie-Double-Impact-DVD-p/sk01.htm

[Meat Shake]

Wing chun has some really great concepts, just dont stick to the knock kneed stances and insistance that you dont need BJJ.
I think its great that they organized a seminar like that, shows that things are evolving into more intelligent fighting systems.

[tjwingchun]

Wing chun has some really great concepts, just dont stick to the knock kneed stances and insistance that you dont need BJJ.
I think its great that they organized a seminar like that, shows that things are evolving into more intelligent fighting systems.

I agree totally with the cross system discussions, one of the main reasons I recently joined in the forums, some are more open minded than others.

Took me years to realise what the 'knock kneed' stance was all about and how I could justify it to my students, instead of thinking of it as a forward stance, think of it for training leg strength and directional stepping to either side so instead of /--\ it can be /--/ or \--\, so it is preparation for the turning stance from the second form.

To use it for fighting merely have the feet slightly \--/ and then you have 2 stances with the weight equally balenced and able to move off either foot, with the bodyweight more over the toes you then have the flexibility to drive in any direction.

Bit simplistic but essentially use the stances to become aware and understand your legs and use commonsense to apply them.