Depressing Demo......

[Matrix]

I'm not sure if this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5WrC3NFpLU&search=wing%20chun)is funny or just embarrassing. :o

Maybe boards do hit back. :rolleyes:

[TomasWTUK]

I'm not sure if this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5WrC3NFpLU&search=wing%20chun)is funny or just embarrassing. :o


Pick one! :p

[Dave P]

He's an WT advanced technician and a direct student from Leung Ting. :D ...puch completely pulled back before his "action" and he even manages to loose his balance and push himself backwards.

Probably those two students did not keep the board up in the right manner, :rolleyes: :cool:

[Gooseman]

this vid is indicitive of most WT demos, empty, shallow and not referencing fighting at all!
supreme ultimate wally.

But I do like Vic Guitterez check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbsUSkmkI&search=wing%20tsun

The Goose!!

p.s. I also like Alan Orr's clips

[hunt1]

Last time this clip was shown the mods pulled the thread. I wonder how far in the leung ting pocket they are. Will it be pulled again?

Again more evidence from one of Leung Tings top instructors of my assertion that LTWT is garbage when compared to other wing chun families. However to paraphrase what i said on the pulled thread.

This clip proves there is value in LTWT. Anything that can make you laugh this hard has a great future on the Comedy Channel.

And mods if I offend you then just pull my post and not the whole thread again.

[Sihing73]

Last time this clip was shown the mods pulled the thread. I wonder how far in the leung ting pocket they are. Will it be pulled again?

Again more evidence from one of Leung Tings top instructors of my assertion that LTWT is garbage when compared to other wing chun families. However to paraphrase what i said on the pulled thread.

This clip proves there is value in LTWT. Anything that can make you laugh this hard has a great future on the Comedy Channel.

And mods if I offend you then just pull my post and not the whole thread again.

Hello Hunt1,

Everyone is free to express thier own opinion. However, it is unfair to simply attack others because you do not believe in their approach or theory. I am sure that every lineage has plenty of examples one can point to showing that approach is "garbage". There are far fewer examples of those proving the superiority of many views.

Also, Emin came for the WT lineage and seems to have been able to make this "garbage" work for him. (Before you get started I have met Emin and I personally do not like him for personal reasons, but still have to respect his skill). But this goes to show one of my other views, that no matter what lineage one follows there are and always will be some who can make that approach work for them.

Feel free to discuss the merits, or lack of, for this approach or demo. However, please refrain from simply making attacks for the sake of doing so.

If people simply continue to post that this is garbage etc then the thread will be moderated, just as it would be if the target were another family.

[Mr Punch]

This clip proves there is value in LTWT. Anything that can make you laugh this hard has a great future on the Comedy Channel.That's a bit small-minded! Laughter can cure many sicknesses too btw.

Mind you, I think this clip just made the Baby Jesus cry. :(

Hunt, wasn't it you who was looking for chun in Tokyo? If you still want to find some drop me a line, we always need new training partners to beat on. Er, share with. :D

[jack]

I would say it's embarrassing. Why didn't he check the equipment before he performed?

By the way, Timmy Lee had already left LTWT.

[hunt1]

Sihing73

You bring up some interesting points. That fact that an Emin can make the system work doesnt mean the system is good. Many good athletes can make improper mechanics or methods work very well it doesnt make them right or worthy of passing on. For example Lee Trevino was one of the best golfers of his era yet he had a large loop in his swing. This is one of the worst habbits you can have in golf. He was able somehow to make it work for him. No professional would ever teach someone to loop the swing they always work to get it out.
. I have never seen Emin in person. I am sure he is a fine fighter. However even in his vids the lack of lower body and hip usage is clear. The reliance on fast hands and demos with cooperative flippy flappy chi sao partners is clear.

Wing chun is dependent on the proper lower body mechanics to be effective. To many rely on just the upper body. It is no wonder wing chun is the laughing stock of the bullshido boards and most MMa types.
While garbage is over the top it does make a clear point and imo to many in wing chun have turned a blind eye to incomplete wing chun sold to the public as some type of great martial art. Look around and you will find large numbers of former wing chun players that felt ripped off after they tried their wc against resisting people . I believe that we should call a spade a spade and can the false politeness. We all know that in the training halls across the land folks from every wing chun family tell their students theirs is the best and everyone elses is second rate. I am merely putting a point on the discussion.

[Sihing73]

Hello Hunt1,

As I have often said before, none of us has a monopoly on the truth. Each of us will tend to lean towards our own approach as we would not be training that method if we did not believe in it. Still, what we find works for us will not always work for others no matter how well designed it is.

Consider how many of us learn to drive a car. We spend time perfecting our driving skills in all types of weather and road conditions. Now put two people with the exact same training and experience behind the wheel of a formula one race car. It is doubtful that they will both perform the same. My point is that irregardless of the training, an awful lot will depend on the individual and their ability to make that particular approach their own.

Going to your example of golf, think of how many superior atheletes actually broke the rules and performed outside of the accepted boundaries of their own "sport". Many of the best were non conformists who excelled in spite of their "poor" or "garbage" training. Bruce Lee had several physical impairments and excelled in spite of them, due in large part to his superior drive. Consider also, Jim Thorpe who went on to become one of the most famous and accomplished athletes of his time and tell me why he excelled, certainly not because of his finding and training with a superior approach to training. He actually ignored the training advice of his day and age.

There is no cookie cutter mold to pour students in which will produce superb Wing Chunners, if there were then that particular school would have proven their superiority and doubtless the majority of the rest of us would be beating a path to their doors.

As to being the laughing stock of the MMA and Bushido boards, this concerns me little. I am sure you could find just as many who laugh at them as laugh at us.

Consider whether an art which demands above average skill and superior conditioning is a realistic endeavor for the AVERAGE person. In my mind while superior conditioning is certainly a desirible asset it is not a realisitc goal for most of those living in the real world. Besides, I doubt that you could point out anyone at the top of that game who represents one style, lineage or approach to fighting. Not saying there is anything wrong with cross-training but it seems a bit sily to advocate the superiority of one method while still stepping outside of the that approach to "round out ones game". Perhaps this would be an example of simply refining ones "garbage" to make it more palatable.

One of the things which attracted me to Wing Chun was its adaptability to the AVERAGE person. One does not need to be a superman\woman to make the art effective. One also does not need to be locked into one narrow approach to make the art effective. Why is it that writers all using the same 26 letters can deviate between leterary greats and failures? Also why is it that one mans failure may be anothers inspiration?

As they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder and one mans garbage may be another mans treasure. Perhaps the man able to draw out the treasure is the truely exceptional practicianer.

[Matrix]

Pick one! :p
I think I'll take embarrassing.
I don't really care to laugh at other's misfortunes.

[Liddel]

I think its funny AND Embarrasing..... Why

Lets just say apart from poor technique he had fate against him, the wood was harder than normal whatever, if i hit the thing a few times with a punch with those results, i would have given another action like an elbow just to save SOME face. Poor guy :o


this vid is indicitive of most WT demos, empty, shallow and not referencing fighting at all!
supreme ultimate wally.

But I do like Vic Guitterez check out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbsUSkmkI&search=wing%20tsun
The Goose!!
p.s. I also like Alan Orr's clips

Im not a fan of this vid either. "Alan orr is another thing altogether, hes good"
Why is it in WT and lots of VT for that matter, people constantly get caged in with regard to chain punching ?

If you start hitting someone in the head and they cover there head with hands find the empty space....the body...
But no ! all to often people just keep punching the head space.

To me it shows a lack of Fight Awareness. But boxers get it from day one :rolleyes:

Come on VT peeps....

[Matrix]

Now this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtIebV7e46o) is funny, but not in a good way. :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Also, Emin came for the WT lineage and seems to have been able to make this "garbage" work for him.

Does anyone have any actual evidence of this? Actual fight footage, competition footage, seen him do a challenge match against someone skilled, or having sparred full contact with him?

The only things I've ever seen of him have been the infamous "jumping on W. Cheung" fight and demos with complying partners.

[Liddel]

If you can make something..... anything from the link below then you deserve SOME credit.

Complying opponenets SHOULD make you look skilled but even here he looks sloppy at best.

A fighter ? you decide ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y87Q7zDqS2Y&search=leung%20ting

[Gooseman]

WT category.

At No.1 Master Milan Prosenica EX-WT Full contact champion 250 fights no losses, he is regularly visited by Mirko Crocop. Master Milan is without a doubt the most succesful fighter WC/WT has ever produced.

No.2 Master Nick Smart from Lancashire, tuff street based EX-WT, unrelenting, aggressive and destructive.

No.3 Emin Boztepe, fast, conditioned and explosive.

No.4 Vic Guitterez, skilled, durable and inventive.

No.5 Tom Lamont, EX Nick Smart from Belfast, went onto fight Vale Tudo in Brazil, great wrestler also, very skilled and aggressive.

No.6 Phil Marrow, retired due to injury, Nick Smart top full contact fighter, 3 gold wins, in Lei Tai, San shou Euro comps.

No.7 WT/Alliance Team Denmark Tuff NHB based.

WC Category.

No.1 Rick Spain, Oz WC/BJJ/Kickbxing legend!

No.2 Kevin Chan, UK WC master/BJJ brown belt champion.

No.3 Alan Orr's comp team UK amateur MMA.

Who else?

Gooseman.

[Big Vern]

Nice list Gooseman,
perhaps it would have been wise to include some of the greats from the USA also!

Hunt 1. your very taken with hip power being the key, could you elaborate some please and whats your personal success biog?

BV.

[hunt1]

Liddel you should have put a warning on that clip. I spit my coffee all over my keyboard! I see no reason to bash LTWT anymore. There is nothing I can say that LT cant demo better.

Big Vern, it is not just hip power it is how to use the whole body. The body must be supple absorbing and issueing force at the same time without tension, just smooth and flowing.

As for my bio what does it matter individual success doesnt mean much. Mike tyson was a great fighter yet the line for training from him is very short indeed.
What is important is can what i say be proven. That is easy enough to do.

I posted some time ago about how a student faired at the Militich school. Nothing else needs be said about my methods. When a five year once or twice a week student that is an actuary and never grappled a day in his life can perform in one of the top 2 or 3 MMa training schools in the world no other proof is needed.

[CFT]

I posted some time ago about how a student faired at the Militich school. Nothing else needs be said about my methods. When a five year once or twice a week student that is an actuary and never grappled a day in his life can perform in one of the top 2 or 3 MMa training schools in the world no other proof is needed.hunt1, that sounds interesting. Was your original post any more detailed? I'd like to read it.

[Nick Forrer]

I have met and trained with Emin and, like Gary Lam, videos dont do him justice. Let me say this....he is not just about speed or power....he is very very technical. In fact i'm 99.9% certain he would embarass every single person who posts on this forum in chi sau, sparring, a fight or whatever.

KF,

I dont know of any fight footage of EB, but he put out a 3 dvd set recently which has the best demonstration of chi sau i've seen on film (with his student michael). I know you're not impressed with that sort of thing but think of it (perhaps) in the same terms as the Royler/Rickson pride demo although, yes, there is plenty of footage of them fighting too.

[Knifefighter]

I dont know of any fight footage of EB, but he put out a 3 dvd set recently which has the best demonstration of chi sau i've seen on film (with his student michael). I know you're not impressed with that sort of thing but think of it (perhaps) in the same terms as the Royler/Rickson pride demo although, yes, there is plenty of footage of them fighting too.

You're right. I'm not really impressed with demo's. Too much B.S in them.
At least with the Rickson/Royler demo, one can double check to see which stuff actually works by watching other, live competitions.

[Knifefighter]

At No.1 Master Milan Prosenica EX-WT Full contact champion 250 fights no losses, he is regularly visited by Mirko Crocop. Master Milan is without a doubt the most succesful fighter WC/WT has ever produced.

Hmmm.... I've seen most of Cro Cop's fights and have yet to see anything that resembles WC.

BTW, could you post the events that Prosenica fought his matches in, or a link to them?

[sihing]

I have met and trained with Emin and, like Gary Lam, videos dont do him justice. Let me say this....he is not just about speed or power....he is very very technical. In fact i'm 99.9% certain he would embarass every single person who posts on this forum in chi sau, sparring, a fight or whatever.

KF,

I dont know of any fight footage of EB, but he put out a 3 dvd set recently which has the best demonstration of chi sau i've seen on film (with his student michael). I know you're not impressed with that sort of thing but think of it (perhaps) in the same terms as the Royler/Rickson pride demo although, yes, there is plenty of footage of them fighting too.

Hey Nick,

Were would one find these new DVD's of Emin?

Always curious to learn and explore..

James

[Gooseman]

Milan Prosenica is now in his 50's, his reign over Europe was through the 80's and early 90's.
http://www.kungfu-si.com/strani/milanpros.htm

I have trained with him this year at Nick Smart's Gym in Chorley, Lancs.
Boy for a retired pro does he move, this guy is metal.
His Gym in Slovenia is a Pro-fight Gym, regularly visited by Mirko Crocop, Gary Goodridge some of the Golden Glory fight team, when they fight K1/MMA in Eastern Europe.
Milan's forte is fighting footwork, looking for angles and power development for the full contact arena, he is renowned for providing the best pad training in the K1 training Team for Slovenia/Croatia.
Trust me this guy radiates intent, power and skill.
Plus he has a lovely manner, very awe inspiring.

The Goose!

[hunt1]

CFT - Yes the original post had more detail. The bottom line was that with work on ground submissions and stamina training he was told he could go pro.

[stricker]

good to see Nick F setting the record straight with his honest view with no politics or any of that bs clouding things up :) if you see emin in real life which is easy for anyone to do its the only true way to find out how kickass he really is! but... i also think hunt1s right to a degree man oh man so many video clips are embarrasing but really thats true of alll wing chun if not all martial arts (except the sport ones where its real within paramaters etc etc). ive seen a bunch of different wing chun people in real life and a handful have really impressed the hell out of me but ive never seen any clips that do justice to their abilities :rolleyes: maybe only people who suck are driven to put clips out :D except gary lam, his clips are just great where in real life hes awesome :p

hunt1,

thats really awesome if your student can hang at that level with just wing chun training to me thats really inspiring. can you give some pointers as to what you think has made that possible compared to the vast majority of wing chunners whod get eaten alive by any level of mma fighter. what is it in your approach that you feel maked him capable of doing that? was it in the tactics or any specifics in your body mechanics, or the training approach? or was it just good wing chun with hard training and natural athletic and fighting ability?

[hunt1]

stricker part of it is of course he has natural talent and wing chun was a fit for him. A big part is I try to teach proper mechanics from day one although it is a constantly unfolding adventure. For example they told him he had to grapple first without stricking of any kind..He worked with 5 or 6 folks and the only one able to take him down was a former NCAA champ. On the ground he could not be submitted he could not subit his opponent either but that was to be expected. After words when they talked The wrestler was surprised to learn that my student was using the same hip mechanics as he was. This explained the difficulty in taking him down.

Besides our body mechanics our chi sao training and usage also differs from several other wc styles. we have 5 different chi sao platforms including one that trains the use of the shoulder and upper body when very close in . I also teach differently. i concentrate on fighting skills first and teach the art aspect later. For example within the first 6 months students understand how to apply some of the empty hand applications of the weapons forms.

[stricker]

hunt1,

thanks for that. i also train mma and we do a lot of stand up wrestling from the pummell and thai clinch and already see a lot of hand techniques used in mma wrestling in wing chun. anyway can you explain a little more about what you mean by the wrestling hip mechanics? i dont have much of a handle on that technically. so far what i understand of hip mechanics in a wrestling standup situation* is getting your hips underneath the otherpersons weight so you can drive up and not get pushed back and also the hip position is lined up so the force goes through without putting a strain on the lower back like any weight lifting. am i missing something more subtle as to what you mean?

one big difference with wing chun i see is in wing chun the posture is kept vertical and more upright so the bodyweight is over the feet at all times so theres no forward lean (using the other person to take some of your weight) and dont end up in like a low squat position either. what do you do in these types of situation where a wrestler would sprawl or level change (squat down low) ?

also id love to know a bit more about your close up chisao using shoulders etc. again ive seen some bits of using shoulder barges etc in wing chun as well as some people using body structure very effectively just using the torso, and theres cool shoulder stuff we do at mma in from clinch (using shoulder bumps position sensitivity etc). is that the sort of stuff your closer range chisao addresses?

cheers!

ps a lot of questions i know as you said your not on the forum much. maybe some other people can chime in pump some fking life into the discussion. (count how many posts are about xyz style whos who and im smarter than you vs how many are about anything real...)

*mma types : different from a thai clinch up on your toes to a lower wrestling clinch (underhooks etc) flat footed. im talking about the lower clinch here. wing chuns all good in the thai clinch! also not talking about being the sprawler where your driving them down to the gound with yer hips. also purists note my wrestling experience is from mma not pure wrestling.

[Big Vern]

Just to catch up what are the new Emin B dvd's.
BV.

[Gooseman]

What where the new Emin DVD's?

[tjwingchun]

I have met and trained with Emin and, like Gary Lam, videos dont do him justice. Let me say this....he is not just about speed or power....he is very very technical. In fact i'm 99.9% certain he would embarass every single person who posts on this forum in chi sau, sparring, a fight or whatever.



Dangerous statement to make when its is not your neck on the line, I am sure that Mr Boztepe can take care of himself and I have heard a few complimentory comments about his abilities from people who have met him, but he made his name because of a similar remark when William Cheung made claim to be THE top fighter in Wing Chun.

[Nick Forrer]

Dangerous statement to make when its is not your neck on the line, I am sure that Mr Boztepe can take care of himself and I have heard a few complimentory comments about his abilities from people who have met him, but he made his name because of a similar remark when William Cheung made claim to be THE top fighter in Wing Chun.

Dangerous how? Hes not hard to find...just go to one of his seminars if you want to chi sau with him (you dont have to challenge him to get an idea of how good he is...and I wasn't advocating that anyone do that in any event...but I was giving my honest assesment of his abilities...if anyones ego is too fragile to handle that then, well, its nothing to do with me).

Everyone else should check out this clip from his DVD as this is what i was refering to earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaP1X-lEtgc

[Nick Forrer]

Another good one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMc3UFMjCBQ

[Wu-Tan-Nan]

That was a nice video, i liked it...

[hunt1]

Interesting that what is shown in the clips Nick put up is considered a demo of high level skill. Its not. I am sure Emin is a good fighter but ........

[Nick Forrer]

Hunt

would be interested to see a clip of what constitutes good wing chun in your opinion....is there one doing the rounds that you could point me towards?

[AmanuJRY]

Dangerous statement to make when its is not your neck on the line, I am sure that Mr Boztepe can take care of himself and I have heard a few complimentory comments about his abilities from people who have met him, but he made his name because of a similar remark when William Cheung made claim to be THE top fighter in Wing Chun.

I not only met Emin but trained under him for almost ten years. I have also met with many other WC's and I can say without any reservation that Emin is one of the best WC fighters in the world (not the best, one of the best). And, as Nick said, his chi sau skills would embarass most people who post on this forum, and I don't think of that statement as a direct challenge, and I don't think Nick or myself are putting Emin's neck 'on the line', as I'm sure Emin has little (if any) reservation about chi sau-ing with anyone. As stated, if anyone is curious or has doubts about the possibility of Emin's skill, go check out a seminar, see it in action, decide for yourself.

But, all nut-rubbin' aside, anyone claiming to be king of the hill...will get knocked off. Such is life.:cool:

[AmanuJRY]

Interesting that what is shown in the clips Nick put up is considered a demo of high level skill. Its not. I am sure Emin is a good fighter but ........

This seems to be a re-occuring event with WC videos. Probably because if they did a video showing 'high level' technique they'd be giving away the family secrets...right.;)

Honestly, the only vids of WC that I've seen and found impressive show some good chi sau play or some knife or dummy work. But there is a plethora of 'instructional' vids that seem like poop because we don't know the setting and direction of the seminars they are taken from (I think this is done to entice us to go to the actual seminar).

Videos, videos, videos.......videos don't tell us crap about someones skill (unless of course its a fight video)!:cool:

[hunt1]

Good question Nick. I dont spend much time cruising the net looking for or at wing chun vids so I cant answer your question. After I finish work I will post some of the problems I see with the vids you posted and what I look at to determine skill.

One thing I can say to start any method that depends on personal athletic ability to work is not a good method. A good method must be one that can produce repeatable good results in the most unathletic person around. For example Emin uses speed. He starts at a good pace but the more unbalanced his partner gets the more he picks up the pace. Anyone with a bit of skill can dominate an unbalanced partner.

[hunt1]

To add to the above. If Emin were showing what I consider true skill he would be moving as slowly as possible letting his student control the pace and the attack speed. He would allow his partner to regain his balance and structure. He would demonstrate breaking his partners balance and structure without striking at all. He would tell his partner what attck he was going to do before he did it so his partner was ready to defend it. Even then his partner should not be able to or should have great difficulty in defending. These are just a few or the things I look for as a sign of skill.
Other things very little use of the body and poor body structure by both parties although it is clear Emin doesnt need to use proper body work in this demo with this partner his partner certainly should show better body and structure and Emin should guide him to the proper body before continuing the demo. The chi sao is the flip flap variety. Flip flap is not the correct way to chi sao. it builds bad habits and is easily overcome by those using correct methods. Flip flap builds a dependency on speed or muscle use it does not build the proper body to arm connection.

[AndrewS]

Hunt1 writes:

To add to the above. If Emin were showing what I consider true skill he would be moving as slowly as possible letting his student control the pace and the attack speed. He would allow his partner to regain his balance and structure. He would demonstrate breaking his partners balance and structure without striking at all. He would tell his partner what attck he was going to do before he did it so his partner was ready to defend it. Even then his partner should not be able to or should have great difficulty in defending. These are just a few or the things I look for as a sign of skill.

Ah, so making things slower and working in a time frame so unrelated to the actual timing of fighting that you use different movement patterns would demonstate skill. Interesting.

I agree, slow demonstration of shock force would definitely demonstrate a unique skill. . .

Your ideas on said demonstration of skill would, of course, make for a great looking clip, and undoubtedly quiet people who find chi sao and Wing Chun unrealistic and ridiculous.


Other things very little use of the body and poor body structure by both parties although it is clear Emin doesnt need to use proper body work in this demo with this partner his partner certainly should show better body and structure and Emin should guide him to the proper body before continuing the demo.

Ah, you mean Michael should link everything up from the beginning so he's one big unit you can easily feel, shock, and manipulate? Having spent hundreds of hours training with both people being discussed, I'm quite amused at the idea that they aren't using proper body structure. I can understand that you might not be able to *see* where they're linked up and what they're doing, particularly in the case of Emin, but when you touch you can feel it, if he lets you.


The chi sao is the flip flap variety. Flip flap is not the correct way to chi sao. it builds bad habits and is easily overcome by those using correct methods. Flip flap builds a dependency on speed or muscle use it does not build the proper body to arm connection.

Connecting the body and arm is the beginning, something most people never even get. Once you have that connection, if you emphasize it, it's a bridge into your own center, and can be exploited.

As to the 'flip-flap' and 'speed and muscle' comments- I don't know what 'flip-flap' is, and I'm very happy to hear of people who eschew speed and muscle. Please continue to do so.

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's nothing wrong with the speed/intensity of the Boztepe vid that was posted. Yeah...he shows some real skills, no doubt.

But like SO MANY other wing chun vids on youtube or wherever they are - whether they be demonstrating chi sao, sparring drills, or what not)....always look AT WHAT THE OTHER GUY IS DOING - if you want to get a clue.

The guy in the vid is not doing basicially anything serious (or particularly skillful) to stop Boztepe's attacks....and his attacks that Boztepe counters are basically nothing - in terms of intensity or skill level.

Not picking on Boztepe in particular - because 99% of all wing chun vids suffer from the same flaws - regardless of lineage.

What's the point of posting ANYTHING and calling it wing chun if the realism is cut to the barest minimum?

This is 2006.

[Mr Punch]

I'm pretty much with Vic on this.

I like the vids, an d I'm sure Emin has crazy skills, but that vid has a typically compliant stooge. I'm all vids out there have to be of sparring, but one of Emin doing chi sao, as opposed to doing a chi sao demo as part of a seminar or something would probably shut some people up!

I think maybe that's where Hunt's criticism comes from too... he's mistaking this for chi sao. It isn't. It's a chi sao demo, which I hope is why his partners are not showing much structure.