Serious Question to those who practice "Internal" and "External" arts.

[Fu-Pow]

When practicing at home is there any preference to the order in which you practice. I mean, should I practice Taiji before my CLF or vice versa. Well reasoned arguments only please.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[woliveri]

I have always thought that practicing external while at the same time practicing internal (if your main training focus was internal) would be counter productive for internal training. That is, external training is counter productive for the internal practioner.

Anyone else have some imput here?

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[Nexus]

The way the body moves in an internal art and external art are different and because of that, you can easily develop bad habits for one or the other.

An example is this:

You are standing in a left forward stance and you want to move into a right forward stance by moving the right leg forward.

In an external art (this will be a generalization) you will put pressure on the front leg, using strength to push yourself up and and then shifting the body weight forward coming down on the leg that was previously in the back.

In taiji, we use the principles of relaxation to do this. We are standing in a left forward stance and we relax the back right knee causing us to shift the body weight backwards. Now we pivot the left (front) foot 45 deg to the left, so it would be facing the front-left-corner from where our body is positioned. Then we relax the left knee, and draw our back foot forward, and when done properly the body does not raise or bounce up and we bring the leg through to the front stance, leading the body with the shoulder, and then turning the dantien to face forward once more.

Of course these descriptions do not do justice to seeing this type of movement in action and/or doing it yourself and learning from the way your body feels.

This is just one of many examples.

- Nexus

[grounded]

I have always heard that it is safe to practice both- so many people do everyday!
Personally, I use external stance and form work before qigong and taiji, as I find this gets the blood flowing enough that the chi circulation is evident instantly in taiji form. Of course, as mentioned above, there are so many differences in combat situations, so please consult with your sifu before attempting anything funny.“

[shaolinboxer]

Creating a difference between the two is the problem.

Interal/external...to me its a just a fabrication.

[Fu-Pow]

I think that it is a fabrication to think that the differences are a fabrication.

Anyways, I just had a break through in my internal practice thats why I'm asking.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Nexus]

Fu-Pow, you are correct. And congratulations on the breakthrough, there will be many more to come!

- Nexus

[Kumkuat]

it is quite hard to practice both internal and external arts and the same time. Both use a very different way of moving. Unless you can tell the difference between the arts, you should just focus on one; especially if you want to become good at internal arts, you should just give up on external art for now.

They are different because external uses li and internal uses yi and qi. Or you can say external artists uses the ground and internal artists become the ground. Or you can say that external artists uses muscles for strength, and internal artists uses the ground path for strength.

[gazza99]

Do one or the other, it could be EXTREMELY counter productive, If you have to supplement your internal art with another to defend yourself then you need to find another school!
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[bamboo_ leaf]

This has been my experience.

I originally learned TC to help me understand my mantis. In the process of doing this I found that I had to give up my mantis style.

It would be years later that I would relearn it. This time my movements and understanding where heavily influenced by my TC. In the end I kept my TC and now only practice it. It has all the answers for me. It took awhile for me to see this but I know it now.

So I would say on a superficial level a person could probably do both. But what’s the point. IMHO To gain any real understanding you would have to do one or the other.
Less is better.

luck in your training

bamboo leaf

[thumper]

I would say do the internal last. You do the external stuff first, which gets the blood moving, the circulation going, the chi moving, and you finish with the internal to focus solely on that circulation (which helps increase it further), and to relax the body and mind. That's my approach.

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[grounded]

there's another advantage to practicing arts in addition to your Taiji-
internal arts do not use muscle
rather, they rely on physics and energy work.
therefore they do not develop muscle,
unless you find a really exceptional teacher who can guide you back to original Yang or Chen family transmissions.

(yes, there is life beyond push hands!)

But this also depends on what you want to get out of martial arts. Practicing taiji exclusively as a fighting art is only effective if you have one of those one in a million teachers. I know dozens of dedicated taiji artists, many of whom have spent as much as 25 years on the art, and my teacher is the only one I know who can fight. Of course, he uses Bagua and Hsing-I also.


sorry for the rant
I just want to see an internal martial artist hold up against other arts. Anything you can do to help is good, as long as you maintain focus on one art.

of course, my focus is different from many peoples' focus- I cross train in ground work and wushu just in case my "parting the wild horse's mane" isn't enough in real life!

But if all you want is health or meditation you may be better off with just taiji.

peaceÏ

[Crimson Phoenix]

It's not only external vs internal, you can, for example, practice two external styles that have opposite concepts and strategies...Is it impossible, or should it be avoided at all cost? I don't think so, it's a matter of mindset and focus...when I do my white crane, I do things that are genuine WC, but that would make my bagua teacher scream (elbows pressed in, heavy muscular usage of the scapula for example)...then when I do bagua, I shift to the bagua mindset and move in ways that I would never do in WC...I don't think it's only a distinction between internal and external, it's just a distinction between different styles and their respective orthodox methods...I do not think it is important that a certain order must be kept, as long as you are fully into your CLF when you do it and fully in you taiji when you do taiji...and frankly, I can imagine valid arguments for "internal first" and valid arguments for "external first", and none of them is objectively and clearly a better argument than the other...do as you feel on the spot, as long as you keep both styles pure and orthodox...
Just my thoughts...

[Kumkuat]

I don't like the saying that internal arts don't use muscle. I think it's more like they have little (very little) muscular tension. I mean, those chen masters have a pretty developed dantien and leg area for someone who don't use muscle.

[shaolinboxer]

Kumkuat almost agrees with me ;)

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I would say that the idea that muscle isn't used in Internal arts is a gross oversimplification. It comes from letting the wisdom stop at the first stage. You do need to cultivate a structured relaxation as a foundation for progress. This skill is called song, and when you have song the larger muscle bellies are relaxed and you hang off of the short postural muscles.

This is only stage one. Its still martial arts, so power training is the next step. In Yang style the power training is present, but largely just given lip service. Yang practitioners talk about taking individual moves and training them explosively for power, but the only teacher I know who actually seems to do this is Earle M. (I'm not a fan of all that he does, but he is surely correct that it was a part of the pre-Yang Chenfu tradition). Where it is really present in Yang style is the weapons training. The weaopns in Yang style train many "textures" of energy that come up in the full range of tuishou practice. The most important for power is the spear.

Chen style is thick with power traning exercises. From cannon fist, to power qigong, to weapons, to the use of resistance training, to deep stances. So much of the development of the solo form comes from the practice of how to dig out more power.

In my mind, gross power is what really divides external style from internal styles. This is the use of large long-fibred and superficial muscle groups, as opposed to the use of small short-fibred and deep muscle groups. To get at the deep muscles and not rely on the superficial ones is the point of the relaxation methods of Taijiquan in particular. However, once you have gone deep then there is a martial imperative to find the power that close to the bone. If two subtle and structurally connected people engage then power (and the ability to change, but thats a whole other topic) will be a deciding factor.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Fu-Pow]

Kevin-

I've definitely found some sort of power. It feels really thick like molasses though and I certainly can't move it very quickly. At least not yet.

I think it is ground power. I discovered it when I "let things go" so to speak. I think it is called Peng. Some people think Peng is simply good structural alignment but I now think it is more than that. It is an expansion and contraction from the ground up.

There is still definitely muscle involved but you couldn't really tell from watching the movement.

Some things out of the classics definitely make sense though. For example, you must go left to go right, you must go right to go left, up to go down, down to go up. And the ability to send people upward by pushing down.

Grounded-

Excellent point. I definitely want to keep training CLF if for any reason to stay in good cardiovascular and muscular shape. Plus knowing two arts gives you a greater repetoire of movements in a fighting situation. CLF as primarily a striking art. Taiji as a closer range grappling/striking art. I guess I have a lot of confidence in myself that I will not start confusing the two.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-02-01 at 09:29 AM.]

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-02-01 at 09:31 AM.]

[gano_b]

My Shrfu is constantly telling me to RELAX. I tend to want to use external power entirely too much, but that is common with people early in their training. I know personally, that if I were to mix the external with my Hsing-i, it would be detrimental. Some folks say that Hsing-i is a bit external anyway, so I could probobly really screw it up if I "cross trained". I imagine that it differs from one person to the next, though.

"There is no try...do, or do not."

[Kaitain(UK)]

I train Wado-Ryu Karate and Taiji together 4 times a week

it is always better when I train the Taiji first - the relaxation/lack of tension makes my techniques a lot better

I don't differentiate between my arts when I'm training

i.e.
in Karate:
left side forward stance, throwing a left lead jab - I'm coiled anti-clockwise in the stance and I explode off of my right foot and extend the jab as the energy hits it. My left foot lands just before the jab hits and I sink all my weight down into my front leg (and through the punch) - this sinking allows me to fire my right arm technique with real power. It is an explosive movement with all the power coming from the ground to my waist. As the right arm technique is fired I carry the waist through to bring my right foot forwards so I can step in (more likely taiji) and close down or kick (more likely in Karate)

in Taiji - I drill exactly the same method and movement. I just train it slowly.

In my view the form of Taiji is teaching how to establish a root when needed - you certainly shouldn't be looking to be rooted at all times. You'll get battered.

I also disagree with Nexus' description of how an internal stylist would shift stance:
In Yang Taiji you screw the front foot down by loading it up - you don't unweight the foot to make the turn. In Brush Knee you drive into the front foot (whlst making sure the rear knee is kept from falling in), the foot turns outward 45 as it becomes 100% weighted - then the hip/waist rotation pulls the rear leg through.

Which is exactly how it's done in my Karate. It's exactly how it's done by any good Karateka, regardless of whether he has received internal training.

There are differences between internal and external - but they sure aren't as basic as you seem to be making out.

The big differences that I find:
- internal punching, i.e. using the recoil from the floor to power a strike into someone
- flow, i.e internal artists should be able to flow incessantly with no breaks - external styles that I know train for 3-5 hits and then get out
- emphasis on rooting, i.e an external stylist knows his power comes from the ground, but still does not cultivate this skill
- receiving/yielding, the external styles I study seem to predicated on countering/destroying - at no point in an external system have I trained using my opponents power to give me more force

On the other side of the coin:
- most externalists can fight (or at least hit hard), most internalists think they can but when tested fall short
- externalists can move quickly, a lot of internal guys seem to associate quickness with tension - you can move quickly and fluidly whilst soft.

One of the biggest problems Taiji people have is this superiority complex - that somehow they could take on any external artist and beat him. Wake up already! If you don't train an external style (or at least spar with one) then you have no concept of fighting strategy - get into a fight with an MT amateur and see how long you last. How many TJQ people spar? How many use pressure training to simulate adrenal dumps?

I've been to Taiji clubs in London that turn their nose up at pad work - you cannot learn to hit hard unless you are hitting something. Twice a week my instructor and I trade hits - internal strikes (done gently), as well as more Yang power hits. Taiji is supposed to a balance of Yin and Yang, yet so many concentrate on softness and reufse to see the hardness that must be present.

Ip Tai Tak has a great line - "No hit, no teach"

I'll stop rambling now

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[bamboo_ leaf]

"in Taiji - I drill exactly the same method and movement. I just train it slowly.
In my view the form of Taiji is teaching how to establish a root when needed - you certainly shouldn't be looking to be rooted at all times. You'll get battered."


IMHO, This is why I think that training two opposing styles can lead to different ideas while they may work I would say that they will not lead in the correct direction. Of coures you should be rooted at all times, it provides an axis that your body uses to nurtlize in comeing forces. haveing a root dose not mean have a static infelxable position.

"One of the biggest problems Taiji people have is this superiority complex - that somehow they could take on any external artist and beat him. Wake up already! If you don't train an external style (or at least spar with one) then you have no concept of fighting strategy - get into a fight with an MT amateur and see how long you last. How many TJQ people spar? How many use pressure training to simulate adrenal dumps?
I've been to Taiji clubs in London that turn their nose up at pad work - you cannot learn to hit hard unless you are hitting something. Twice a week my instructor and I trade hits - internal strikes (done gently), as well as more Yang power hits. Taiji is supposed to a balance of Yin and Yang, yet so many concentrate on softness and reufse to see the hardness that must be present."


I don’t know about the superiority complex, I do know that TC is a completely different idea. Look at your statements on sparing and strategy. What other startagy would one need to know other then how to follow, stick and release? How do you purpose to train these?

Pad work? Again the idea of cultivating more energy (hit harder) to overcome a less energy.
The strong overcoming the weak the fast beating the slow sound familiar? is this TC?

TC and the idea of TC is extremely hard to execute the fact that many people are not really able to do it leads to much confusion. I have used TC against hard stylist. If you follow the idea, don’t use force, relax, follow, stick and release you might be surprised at what you may find.

bamboo leaf

[Nexus]

Kaitain(UK), I am not looking for an argument regarding movement in yang style taiji. As I mentioned, it is easier shown then explained. If I could say it in a sense that would relate to what you are saying, I would say that in taiji we are attaching to emptiness. In brush knee twist step we generating our movements with the dantien, and move by finding the emptiness in our movements.

Good luck in your training and learning of the internal arts.

- Nexus

[Kumkuat]

What Daniel Poon said about levitation:

Can you use qi to levitate?

"Don't be silly. Levitating a 50kg person 2 millimetre in the air requires work. E=force*distance = gravity* 50 * 0.002 = 1 Joules of energy, produced over, say 10 second, requires a qi field with the power of 0.1 W. Again your qi field does not have that power. Conservation of matter-energy is a universal law that even daoists would agree with. Indeed, it even sound a bit daoist. "

[Kumkuat]

hmm, I posted that message in the wrong subject. It was suppose to be in the Feng Zhiquang seminar topic

[honorisc]

Back to Topic, Tiger-Leopard, if you don't mind the food thing, Taijiquan should be last. It leaves you the calmest. Leaving training in calmness is best for entering the world outside.

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Kaitain(UK)]

1.Wado-Ryu is not an opposing style to taiji - it is Okinawan Karate based on blending with your opponent via sensitivity and footwork - no hard blocking or suchlike. I cultivate principles in Taiji and focus my principles in Karate.

2. How do you move if you are rooted? Have you studied the fast form? You cannot be rooted at all times - even the form is not rooted all the way through - what it trains is that pressure applied at any time in any direction can be rooted (if you are doing the form correctly), that does not mean you are rooted throughout

3. If you never hit anything then you have no power - period. It's nothing to do with greater energy, it's to do with being able to use the power you generate from the root. You are in la-la land if you think you can defend yourself if you've never hit a pad.

4. Stick, adhere, follow and release - I train them in pushing hands, but since fights don't start with both arms attached to my opponents arms I have to train how to get that contact - 'he moves, I arrive first'

5. Who did you fight? Do you truly believe that you can defend yourself without ever:
a) moving (you cannot move whilst rooted)
b) making sure that you are transferring energy through your strikes (which can only be done by hitting something)
c) training to receive hard and fast techniques

If you have never tried to yield and return a punch delivered by someone who means it then you cannot hope to defend yourself.

Taiji is an equal harmony of hard and soft - you train the soft until you can make it hard as well. In the classics it does not discount the use of extreme Yang to overcome extreme Yin.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[bamboo_ leaf]

We must have different ideas.

I have been training for what I would say is awhile; in this time I have trained with many teachers some quite famous in the style of TC that I play. Funny how they never mentioned training as you suggest.

Who did I fight you mean in some kind of ring? Really, is this the measure of what works these days?

Again we must have different ideas. I will say this, every thing that I have done I have tested to my satisfaction how else can one know if they have understood the ideas of what one is practicing. As for power, its not how much i have or can produce. It's my ablility to use yours that counts. it's also my ability to deny you anyplace to apply your power to my body. I guess it's a differnt out look :)

As for rooting, yes every step I take there is a root, how could this not be so?
To be rooted dose not mean some type of fixed immobile stance.

Yes I have played some fast TC while training in Hawaii this would the style that was created by the Tung family. I don’t play that style or those sets anymore for my own reasons.

But to do the movements with out having a root IMHO would be quite incorrect even if done quickly there is root in every step. If this where not so, you would tend to have gaps in your movement that could be exploited by someone who knows TC.

“If you have never tried to yield and return a punch delivered by someone who means it then you cannot hope to defend yourself.”

It must have been a dream. I did do this to a Korean hard stylist. I caught the end of his punch yielded with it and add my energy to it on it’s way back.
This had the effect of causing him to fall backwards; he couldn’t handle the extra energy coming back. We where both surprised, as it was unexpected. A reaction gained from push hands.

“Taiji is an equal harmony of hard and soft “ agree right track bl” –“ you train the soft until you can make it hard as well. In the classics it does not discount the use of extreme Yang to overcome extreme Yin”.
“harmony yes! the middle point” This is confusion “overcoming=disharmony”

Anyway I’m not saying what your doing is wrong or how you understand things, if it works for you then okay. The things that you have written seem to be against the way I understand things and also with the people I train with.

this is how i understand things inregards to my own training and development. it also works for me as your training works for you.

Luck in your training

bamboo leaf

[Kaitain(UK)]

Of course we have different ideas - that's the point :)

I train with the best available source of Yang family Taiji in the UK, so I know my training is not contrary to Yang family principles - you train CMC (my only experience of which is through Willie Lim), we think you're too much cotton and not enough iron, Willie (so I assume CMC) thinks we're too hard. It's a stylistic difference. That's why we understand things differently.

when you step you are not rooted the same way as when you are stationary - when someone applies pressure to a stance I find that adjustments are made to root the energy - that could just be fault with me, but when I speak to my instructor about it he says the same thing. You should always be ABLE to root at any point - maybe we're just talking about the same thing in alien terms.

I asked about the fast form because it is supposed to train (amongst a lot of things) the constant reestablishment of a root to launch or receive energy, and then the lifting of the root to enable fluid movement. I wasn't asking to 'test' your knowledge or something shallow like that.

I'll reiterate - if you do not train hitting pads/bags/training partners then your alignment will be at fault - regardless of where your energy comes from... This may be a stylistic variation though - I train to use the strikes that are in every posture of the form. So for example in pushing hands we train to hit through openings whilst sticking with the elbow/upper arm... Not sure if that's contrary to CMC.

When I asked who did you fight I meant who did you fight - a drunk? a mugger? your neighbour? It wasn't some spurious request for your match history :)

A single punch is not a test - I think it is a bit naive to think pushing hands alone is sufficient training to defend yourself. It is an extremely valuable training tool, but it is not fighting. I train with a couple of bouncers at the moment - when they go for me they are throwing 3-4 attacks at once (they are not the most fluid chaps you'll ever see) - sometimes they are easy to deal with, sometimes they are very hard (kicks especially). If I don't pressure test my art in a safe environment then I cannot rely on it in a real confrontation.

overcoming does not mean disharmony - if I am attacked then I overcome my opponent - using hard and soft. I do not have a half-way point I adhere to - if my opponent is very soft then I may be very hard, if he is very hard then I may be very soft. Since soft and hard are relative it becomes more semantic than anything - especially if you get into "tense = soft (iron cover around a cotton bar)". As long as the hardness comes from the softness of my body then it is all the same thing.

As a last note, I believe a lot comes down to what people train for - the situations I have encountered recently (see main board) have required me to raise my level. Hence my main goal in training at the moment is the rapid elimination of any threat to my family. When three guys come and attack me I don't want to risk anything - I will be as Yang as I can be. As I get more confident in Taiji I will look to temper that approach.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Repulsive Monkey]

Please can you enlighten us as to who this best source of Yang family teaching in the U.K. it is that you learn from please?

Plus who said that one has to have physical contact when applying Stick,Adhere,Follow and Release? These are techniquies that are constantly used in fight situations yet it has been said earlier that one cannot use them in a fight because one needs to have their arms in contact with their opponent. This is erroneous as when is developed, naturally you will stick to their Qi, adhere to its directing source follow it direction as you turn the force and project it as you release your hold on them. Surely if you were recieving the top quality best Yang family teachings in the UK you would of been taught something as basic as this wouldn't you???? Or has the Yang family stopped teaching this level of Taiji???

[Repulsive Monkey]

There are some interesting excursions here into Taiji principles and some deviations too. No matter what, Taiji does not advocate hardness through muscular tension and thus anyone who practices this, obviously does not practice Taiji correctly. This is why most people assume that Karate certainly does not assimilate well with Taiji. Yin and Yang I feel relates well to the idea that one trains in relaxation yet as Yuan Qi aborbs into the Bone the marrow increases in density and thus makes the bones heavy and tough. Therefore absolute Yin creates absolute Yang in that respect. Yet the bone is still flexible in its resillience. Lao Tzu likens anything that is stiff and tense is close to death, anything that has strength through softness and yielding is full of life.

[Kaitain(UK)]

John Ding - 1st disciple of Ip Tai Tak, 1st disciple of Grandmaster Yang Sau Chung. As I said, there isn't a better source for Yang Family instruction in the UK.

Adhere, Stick and Follow - whether in contact or not they NEED TO BE TRAINED. If you only ever train at contact range then you are going to get battered. If you assume you are capable of dealing with someone from range and you don't train that then you will be rudely awakened.

You also exhibit the standard ignorance about external arts that they ALL have tension. As I said, Wado-Ryu Karate is not contradictory to Taiji - 2 of the Katas (Sanshin and Tencho) are Chinese and when performed slowly should contain the same nuances that the Taiji form contains. The main principles are blending and utilising your opponents force.

You'll also find that I stated - "As long as the hardness comes from the softness of my body then it is all the same thing." - train Yin so that you can eventually possess extreme Yang energy (rather than tension)

You can spout on and on about sensing someones Chi and reacting to it - when someone is trying to thrust a pint glass in your face all of that goes out of the window and you rely on what you've trained and practiced.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Fu-Pow]

Kaitan-

Its sounds like to me you are training with too much hard external power. Taiji is supposed to be hard CONCEALED in soft, ie steel wrapped in cotton. It is not a "mix" of hard and soft movements. Each movement is supposed to contain both. But the hard is inside, you're not supposed to see it. The "power" comes from internal mechanics, which you mostly cannot see.

Now, there are "harder looking" forms in the Chen Style Taiji. The Pao Cheui (or cannon fist) set is much more explosive and agressive. But it is taught to students with the assumption that they already have a good understanding of the internal mechanic through the earlier forms.

Sparring is only useful if you already understand the internal mechanic. It is not really useful for begginners because instead of using Taiji they will just use normal muscular power. This is why I'm suspicious of Taiji schools that do a lot of sparring right off the bat. Are they really using Taiji energies or are they just passing off some slow kung fu for Taiji?

That is why push hands is so valuable. It allows one to test their internal energies. It is not that it is some "wimpy" version of sparring. It should be training those very energies at the root of Taiji.

The paradox about internal arts is that at low levels it is essentially useless. But at higher levels it can become more powerful than its external cousins.

It takes a long time to learn to apply the movements correctly with internal energy, so initially it isn't really all that effective for self defense..

In contrast an art like Choy Lay Fut was designed to be taught quickly and applied quickly and it uses energies that are quickly understood (at least by most people!!!???.)


Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-11-01 at 09:31 AM.]

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-11-01 at 09:35 AM.]

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 11-11-01 at 09:38 AM.]

[Kaitain(UK)]

then you haven't understood me properly

I know what I have, I know what I train to have, I've felt what I want to achieve - either the masters of my style are inept or my flavour differs from yours

With over 15 years total MA training I know what I'm doing and how it is different now compared to two years ago - as you say, Taiji has most value for those with a strong martial background

The post asked for experiences from those who train both - I offered those experiences. In response I have been told that the route I follow is wrong, my instruction is bad and now that I'm too external.

I guess the only way you'll ever know is to come and train with me - there's no point arguing further.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Fu-Pow]

Kaitan-

You may want to re-read my post I was still editing it when you responded.

Anyways, how long you've trained counts for very little if the quality of the instruction that you recieve is substandard.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Hmm, I started out in Wado Ryu, a long time ago. I had the good fortune to see and briefly train with Shintani Masaru, an Ohtsuka disciple. I'd like to think I got to see it at the highest level. I don't think the use of root in Wado Ryu and Yang style are even superficially related.

The idea that the root is re-established implies that it is lost at some point. What are you doing that you lose your root? To transfer weight in Yang style is not throw it from one leg to another, its to change substantial to insubstantial and back. While the initial experience of root is best done while still, this doesn't mean you have to be static to have it. Have you ever touched someone with Bagua skills?

The idea that you have to resort to Karate and look outside traditional Yang style for fighting skills is a bit pathetic. I have to question the completeness of the transmission of the style if it needs to have external martial arts thrown in to round it out. Wado is a smart style, for Karate, but its still not powerful in terms of structure and connection. Fat old Wang Shujin, with an ass as big as the moon, was still able to toy with any Japanese hard stylist that came his way. He ate their punches like candy (how many black-belts broke their arms on his big belly?) and put them on the ground at will. Instead of working up a sweat on the pads he just stood still.

The idea that you have to run into things all of the time for power is simple-minded and shows a lack of experience with internal connection. There is nothing wrong with occasionally testing progress by hitting, I prefer a human in thick chest protective gear, but to make it the focus is to make the test into the skill. Its the same thing as mistaking push-hands for fighting. Testing is testing and fighting is fighting, they are not the same.

I used to hang out with boxers and bouncers at a club in Winnipeg. I was a popular training partner because I was the worst-case scenario. I'm only 5' 8" and about 150 lbs, but the bouncer lads were challenged by internal connection. (Right I just remembered a previous disagreement we had Kaitan, you can't catch a jab with your Taiji can you?) Lots of hits are still coming from one spine. If the opponent can kick with more than their leg I'm going ot worry about it, but, after taking a Xinyi chicken kick, I realize that they can't do much to good structure.

I think one of the reasons you are getting jumped on Kaitan is that you didn't simply "share your experiences," you slammed internal stylists as unrealistic and weak for not training external martial arts. Why when it comes to the internal external debate do the hard advocates always point to Grandma's community club Taiji as if it were these people who hang out this forum? There are people who can make it work, and when they do there is no comparison.

I believe, Kaitan, that we will remain in contention. Its not personal and if I'm insulting to you I don't do it to criticize your ego, its perhaps just a flaw in mine. I believe that your are in too small a pond and would benefit from exploring internal martial arts from other sources. Go to China with your Wado-Yang style and then, if you can honestly maintain your current view, I for one will look more seriously at your conclusions.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[bamboo_ leaf]

Just some follow-ups.

“So for example in pushing hands we train to hit through openings whilst sticking with the elbow/upper arm... Not sure if that's contrary to CMC.”

I think if you train this way then you are not really listening. Your power and movement comes form the other. Balance is maintained by the ability to change and follow the empty (soft place) of the other. Not easy and there are many levels.


“When I asked who did you fight I meant who did you fight - a drunk? a mugger? your neighbour? It wasn't some spurious request for your match history
A single punch is not a test “- I think it is a bit naive to think pushing hands alone is sufficient training to defend yourself. “


In my life I’ve a few fights but I will not talk about them here its not important. The punch I mentioned was thrown in a hard contact sparing match against a fellow MA that I knew many yrs ago. It came of itself, stick, follow release.


“It is an extremely valuable training tool, but it is not fighting.”


Pushands seems to be many things to many people. I look at it as a way to really examine my own understanding and abilities. Pushhands is not about pushing. Any type of fighting involves touching, slow, fast, short, long, high or low. It’s the same once the real skill is acquired.



“ I train with a couple of bouncers at the moment - when they go for me they are throwing 3-4 attacks at once (they are not the most fluid chaps you'll ever see) - sometimes they are easy to deal with, sometimes they are very hard (kicks especially). If I don't pressure test my art in a safe environment then I cannot rely on it in a real confrontation.”


IMHO this will not help in developing real TC skills, its called seeking the far, missing the near. What will develop higher skills is finding higher level TC people and training with them/ invest in loss.


I think that some times people see little old ladies or men playing TC and are mislead in what they see. IMHO I would say be careful. My first TC teacher in HI was 63 when I met him. He really liked it when people tried to rob him in downtown Honolulu.

When the police arrived they would always tell him to take it easy with the bad guys. His name was Sam Kakina. a very good and kind man.


What works for you and your understanding is in accordance with what you want to learn, me I just want to learn about keeping my balance inside and out. I don’t really care much about fighting.

:)
luck in your training

bamboo leaf

[Fu-Pow]

Couple of points:

I don't think you can appreciate the internal without some depth of experience in the external.

Nor do I think that one is necessarily better than the other.

It is naive to think that your Taiji is going to give you some mystical powers especially if going up against an experienced external martial artist. You got to be really good at the internal to make it work.

I think they are both really cool and learning one doesn't necessitate giving up the other.

Just can't confuse the two (which I see a lot of people do especially with Yang and Shaolin). I imagine the two being like yin and yang.

Lets take the scenario of having a hard straight punch thrown at me. I can either take the external approach and "attack" the limb with my forearms as it comes in. Or I can take the internal approach and stick to the persons arm, lead them and then send their energy recoiling back through their body.

Of course, there are lots more options than this
but hopefully this illustrates my point.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[bamboo_ leaf]

“It is naive to think that your Taiji is going to give you some mystical powers especially if going up against an experienced external martial artist. You got to be really good at the internal to make it work.”

Can you explain this a little more?

“Lets take the scenario of having a hard straight punch thrown at me. I can either take the external approach and "attack" the limb with my forearms as it comes in. Or I can take the internal approach and stick to the persons arm, lead them and then send their energy recoiling back through their body. “


I don’t quite understand how you could do this. One is based on some type of technique the other is based on trained principles.
For example if you train not to go against or use force, how would you suddenly decide to use force or go against it.

Seems like you would be fighting your self.
Just wondering?


In my own practice I found that it was really impossible for me to keep both. Some may, I wasn’t one of them.

:)

bamboo leaf

[Kevin Wallbridge]

To think that internal and external styles are yin and yang is to miss that internal styles are already yin and yang. Just because softness is a diffucult concept to embody and so occupies a central place in the introduction to Taijiquan doesn't mean it is the end-point. Just because yielding is a skill doesn't mean that you can't fire a cannon through his chest.

To only think of Yang Chengfu's style of Taijiquan may make the argument against softness seem reasonable, and then only because so many people with poor skills have disemminated it. What about Chen style or Baguazhang or (drumroll) Xingyiquan. Xingyiquan's internal method for dealing with a straight punch is to tear the limb from the socket before moving in for something resembling a vivisection.

Still it is an internal world apart from external styles. It cultivates embodied consciousness, with well defined methods. It trains connected structure with full body relaxation. It trains spiral jing and the generation of movement from deep in the body core. Its methods are energies not techniques and so can change like light and as the energy of the strike lands...

If you really get internal connection you will see that to be a sweaty monk is counterproductive to real martial progress. Leaping about is fun, but knowing how doesn't help me appreciate the internals, it just makes me aware that some time was wasted that could have been spent on progress.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Kaitain(UK)]

which is fine fron a scholastic approach to learn the art for the arts' sake

Given recent occurrences in my life I've had to take a more pragmatic short-term approach to my art/s - I would like to have the facility to train just Taiji 8 hours a day with no interruption as I think the style would be workable with that degree of practice. However, given my lifestyle allows for 2-3 hours a day at most, and given that I am concerned with self-defence, I have to work principles and applications. I hope that this isn't pushing me too far off course - but if it does then so be it, I need to have a workable system rather than an academically pure taiji that is useless for the next 5 years (in self-defence terms)

I choose not to respond to your earlier post Kevin as it will serve no good purpose for either of us - I've spent 12 hours refraining from posting some vitriolic reply which I know is the wrong thing to do. I appreciate that you feel I was attacking all internal artists - that wasn't the case. I also stick to my opinions on training and useage - I also see your perspective. I think it strange to believe that we will never agree on anything, but that will remain to be seen.

If my approach has been too hard-edged then I apologise - I've had a rough week coping with court and so on, so maybe I haven't been the most diplomatic person.

Catch you later

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> . Its methods are energies not techniques and so can change like light and as the energy of the strike lands...
[/quote]

Bamboo leaf...you wanted to know what I was talking about when I wrote "mystical taiji powers"? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Kevin you need to have an experienced CLF or Hung Gar master split your nose open like a cherry tomato. Then we'll see how your mystical energies are gonna protect you.

Taiji might work wonders against some shmoe on the street. Karate will for that matter. But you take two experienced martial artists, internal and external, and don't be so sure that internalist is going to win.

And don't confuse Shaolin MA's with the sport Wushu that you see now. Most true Shaolin MA's aren't about jumping around, they're just as down and dirty as any internal style.

Fu-Pow
http://www.makskungfu.com/images/Graphics/Choy%20Lay%20Fut%20red.gif

[bamboo_ leaf]

It would seem that we have gotten away from your original question.

If this is your training, I would think that it would really depend if you wanted to use the TC as a kind of cool down or way to settle your body.

Or if you wanted to relax the body and reinforce principles that may not be as directly addressed in what you do.
So one way would be to play the from after, the other before your CLF training.

i think people tend to learn things that they need to know at the time; sometimes what they need to really know is not what they think they are learning.

luck in your training

:)

bamboo leaf

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the input bamboo_leaf.

Fu-Pow
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