Chi Sao

[jkdninja]

How does one practice/train chi soa with out a training partner?

Kent

[CFT]

You can't really.

Who would pressure you to keep structure? Who would show the gaps for you to attack?

If you have a wooden dummy you can practice, sticking, flowing and moving but that is not the same as chi sau.

[Chum Kil]

I agree with the above statement, but also learning how to roll is very important as well. Even with Dan Chi Sao.

[jkdninja]

hat was what I was wondering. I know without a training partner you have no energy to react to as well as learning your flaws as well. As far as rolling I what about using some sort of ball i.e... vollyball or a small medicine ball? would this help build stamina in the arms and shoulders?

Kent

[Chum Kil]

No need for a ball, just roll, slowly, and feel what you are doing, close your eyes.

[Wu Wei Wu]

without a partner, time better spent using heavy bag rather than trying to figure out how to chi sao without someone to chi sao with.

dont play with balls, you won't get the same feeling.

lol.

[couch]

without a partner, time better spent using heavy bag rather than trying to figure out how to chi sao without someone to chi sao with.

dont play with balls, you won't get the same feeling.

lol.

As a WC guy, I agree...

Time alone is best spent lifting weights, shadowboxing and using the heavy bag.

Sometimes you can do "air chi sau," but this is generally when you have learned something that is a little foreign to you like a technique or defense. Other than than, you need to feel the force. Use the force!

Best,
Kenton

[Liddel]

Doing Air chi sai can be bennifical regardless of the lack of contact.

Specifically with Dan Chi but as mentioned before it is good to practise rolling better.

I tell begginers to practice Dan Chi Sao at home alone, for two main purposes.

1) To make the actions more natural through repeditive practice.

2) often begginers (but advanced people also) telegraph actions so you can predict thier timing better through contact.

Example.

Often people when playing Dan Chi Sao lift thier Tan Sao prior to launching the palm to the opponent.
This minimises the use of elbow power and utilises momentum more because you are creating a bigger space to travel.
Its a minute space but it telegraphs intention and timing.

Intention is fairly obvious because Dan Chi is by nature repeditive but its a BAD habbit to form so its better to drop early on IMO.

Training with a live partner will always be better but at least this gives one the option of practicing anytime you want, and its more appropriate for begginers cause if youve already forged good habbit actions as a more advance VT practitioner thier is other stuff you should focus on.

Thats just my take :?

[CFT]

I think air chi sau does have a limited place in beginner training if it is done slowly and care taken with positioning.

Just taking dan chi sau as an example. Perform it paying attention to the position of the elbow with respect to the centreline. Try to relax, train the shoulder tendons.

Chi sau/poon sau. Train the roll, relax. Pay attention to the centreline again and try not to cross arms. Get used to using two arms performing different actions at different levels.

Overall solo practice should help with getting used to the funny shapes and motion. But we want to develop correct arm positioning, with relaxed motion, and don't forget the forward intent.

[YungChun]

When I first started training WCK I wanted to train after class when no one was around to train with.. So I made a flexible arm that could be mounted on a tree or wall. It used an old Soloflex rubber joint for an omni directional joint and another Soloflex band for a bicep.. With mounted on a wall it could help with feeling energy--by repositioning yourself while in contact with the arm you could create the illusion of the arm "pressing" one way or another and you could do various moves on it.. Still, this is nothing like real chi sao and if you want to get good in chi sao you need to work with good chi sao folks and better yet good chi sao folk who are also good teachers..

[Wu Wei Wu]

dan chi sao should not generally be practised solo. way too much room to form bad habits.

the forms, specifically siu niem tao teaches structure. you should use forms to practise movements such as tahn sau etc.

dan chi sau/ seung chi sao - ideally need partner/opponent. if alone, train some other attributes. hit trees if you have to, kick concrete pillars, whatever... push ups etc.

if you really cant find anyone to roll with, travel, find someone. if you are serious about training then you will search out people.

you cannot develop skill in a vacuum.

[Liddel]

dan chi sao should not generally be practised solo. way too much room to form bad habits.


I find this an interesting POV. I know your talking 'In General' which i tend to agree with, However we practice every VT action solo at one point, its called the FORMS. :D

So why couldnt the attributes we're taught about the forms apply to doing chi sao solo.

Were told and shown, for example, where our actions must be in the forms by who evers teaching us and then left to practice forms solo, so how would this NOT apply to Chi Sao for instance ?

:rolleyes:

[Wu Wei Wu]

"the forms, specifically siu niem tao teaches structure. you should use forms to practise movements such as tahn sau etc."

i wrote this earlier. i think i acknowledged that forms teach movement without the need for a partner.

re: your question...

forms teach movements.

chi sao teaches the maintenance of structure under pressure as well as the interpretation of messages conveyed by an opponent, through touch.

without pressure (a partner) you cannot do chi sao. so better to practice forms, or use heavy bag etc etc.

[Liddel]

Wu Wei Wu, i agree with your post....

I like how you explain the use of form but i also believe it teaches application as well as 'Structure' as you said.

You see a limited version of how to apply and then through pressure testing you adapt your own application. This can apply to chi sao IMO.

so getting back to jkdninja's origanal question.

How do you practice Chi Sao alone ?

- The same as you practice with a partner -

Although it would be lacking in certain bennifits but NOT all. :rolleyes:

[Wu Wei Wu]

ok.

if circumstances are such that chi sao must be trained without a partner...

jesse glover once showed me the use of stretch bands (or an inner tube) that is wrapped around the body. you would then do the chi sao motion with the resistance of the band.

[Meklorien]

Or if you don't want to deal with mounted flexible arms or rubber tubing, you could just find a friend and train them up fairly quickly. If they don't want to do it, offer them lunch or something. :p

As far as the above though, while I tend to agree that solo chi sao practice is inferior to partnered practice, with a fair amount of visualization of imaginary partner and pressure it can still help quite a bit.