Clf players Question

[Steeeve]

i read the post from each thread for long time...

I have a questions here

From what I know Clf have a lot of forms...Learned all that forms are impossible
or u just learned forms ....I thing fighting have to be learned by two men drills ,sparring .....if u have to learned too much forms no time for training for applications ...I mean to practice two men drills ,self defense and so on ...

I thing is better to perfect 3 or 4 forms whaterver the level ....

I like the idea of Buk Sing CLF just three forms that s it..some put more just for $$$ bussiness stuff

3 or 4 forms empty hands and some weapons forms at ur choice(long weapons (staff or spear ,one sword or broadswors and short like butterfly knife )


learning too much forms ....its learning choregraphie like in the dance...

Whats ur opinion (idea ) about that?

Peace
Steeve

[Sow Choy]

Hi Steeeve...

Your right about training... If your concern is fighting, you should be sparring and working the bags, strength, endurance training, drills, etc...

For us (LKH) branch, there may be around 100 or so forms...

Some are just different weapons... The hand forms all have the same core techniques, but with maybe 2 or 3 additional combos of techniques or some unique techniques to that form...

Also the forms are longer, so that you train your endurance... Especially if you have no partner to train with... In our school, you learn according to your ability, some just pick it up so fast... Some, slower...

What matters to us is quality... Movements in the hand forms can be translated into applications pretty easy...

We try and spend 50/50 on form/fighting...

But I agree if fighting especially in the ring/cage, as much time as needed should be dedicated to preparation for that kind of fighting...

for me, I feel the forms ultimately have helped me create good habits in movement and posture and extension which is what CLF is excellent at...

The forms teach you to get maximum power with swing punches strikes/blocks using the whole body, without over extending or losing much time in recovery, as well as following up with quick and aggresive attacks...

So its all about how the material is being passed on... not the material itself...

Joe

[Steeeve]

Joe


I dont mean UFC kind of fighting ...its another think,,,,but for people who want to learn to defend and be in shapes whaterver

I agree forms is good for train endurance ,and the basics ...like U said a lot of forms have the same pattern with some motion change ...a lot of repetition

sorry for my french ....u understood what i mean:) ...yes more time with two men drills ...strike the bag and so on...contact is important to learn

Why put so much form in a curriculum....quality is better of quantity the sow choy of siu mui fa or the sow choy of ping kuen is the same...now train it to use it

Form in chinese martial arts in general dont teach concept or principle like in the wing chun or Pentjak silat Jurus...its more choregraphy like the japenese arts katas ....fight multiples opponents....

Forms is very important in the learning process ....its essential ...but too much forms is not good...the basics one are the more important to learned

I agree for take applications from the forms since its the dictioonnary of the style ....but we have to change became eclectic with the applications ...be able to see more far(extrapolation) of what the mouvement in the forms mean...for be able to do that u have to train with contact( two person) train repetition of sequence for attack or defense to gain muscle memory...in fight if u think is too late...and be able to adapt to the situation

I dont bad mouth the traditionnal way or the traditionnal forms Im a traditionnalist evolutionnist.:rolleyes: ..hahaha...but its the concept of the yin and yang......any excess even with beer and sex(joke):D not very good in english to give joke

Have a good day Joe
nice to talk with U
Steeve

[Sow Choy]

Steeeve,

I agree...

More 2 people training contact and bags... I use my time as best as i can... In the beginning I would spend alot of time on forms... then my sparring got worse... Or spend more time on fighting... then my forms got worse...

My sifu at the time Lee Koon Hung said that when one goes up, the other down.... And to keep up on both of them...

And I try to do that... I give certain days to forms... certain days to bags and sparring, and everyday to defense or street fighting...

To explain here is hard... But each form has some of the same core techniques... But others may concentrate on multiple attackers, palm strikes, kicks, circular techniques, elbows, etc...

So instead of a drill... the drill was put into a form... So there fore you can pull out the drill on your own and train it...

When some schools have so many forms, most people think that alot of time is only dedicated to learning them... Not always the case... we teach maybe 1 or 2 times a week with forms...

So it all depends again on the teachers and what they choose to focus on...

Also, I dont really believe the 1st founders had so many forms... Most likely many were added in or changed for whatever reason...

But if fighting is your concern... Than spar as much as you can, and to me UFC type fighting is the closest thing to the real thing... so take up the challenge and see how you can do by entering some events if you have the opportunity...

Don't listen to us... try it out your self... I have, that is the real reason I am a believer... Not because my sifu told me so... or because Wong Fei Hung defeated whoever or Chan heung killed a tiger...

But to be a better fighter or learn to defend yourself... I believe you must fight.... (full-contact if possible)

No problem with the French...

[Steeeve]

Joe

Im too old 41 years for UFC ....I give my place to Shamrock 42 hahaha:)

But yes I think its a good place (UFC or K2)to try what u learn .....propably u learn right stuff but could u use it its the test and have to learned some grappling...complete with shuai jiao...for grappling...and for the ground judo or brazilian jiujutsu (gracie stuff ) its judo stuff ...very simple groundfighting...choke and arm bars differents ways ....just train it in sparring to good to use it in any situation

CLF is a very good striking style .... too much forms ....

I read some controversy in this forum in the CLF family its a joke...Guys why spend all this time to battle in the same family....whatever Hung sing ,buk sing or whaterver....why dont give good information and keep this positive...Martial arts is a passion....all guys here are passionate of MA ...

Help each others and exchange each others

Sorry 5 beers now:D


Peace
Steeve

[Sow Choy]

steeeve,

great post...

[Ben Gash]

I disagree that the forms don't teach specific principles, this certainly isn't the case in Choy Li Fut, there are very definite principles explored within each form (indeed, probably more so than Wing Chun). As for learning numerous forms, it keeps you interested. Also, because all Choy Li Fut is based very firmly on the 10 seeds, once you reach a certain level most forms are pretty easy to learn (the sequence anyway). I think the biggest problem we have as modern Kung Fu practitioners is that our Kung Fu forebearers trained for 6-10 hours a day, and so it was relatively easy for them to maintain a large number of forms and be proficient in numerous weapons, as well as being well conditioned and practiced fighters.

[CLFNole]

I think whatever system you learn and how ever many forms it has it is up to the player to decide how to train and what to focus on. Training will be different and different ages and stages on the learning experience.

After 14 years of this I have realized we never stop learning. Even the stuff we think we know well you can break down and get more out of it. When it comes to having too many forms maybe it can be seen as bad; however it can be good as well as the art is perserved. If sets were taken out of each generation over time the art might die out. Ultimately no matter how many sets you know what is most important is that you fully understand them and are competent at them. No one will do every form perfect but you should be able to teach and pass on any set. Knowing a large number of sets also makes it easier to teach different body types although this method isn't really used much anymore in the commercial school environment, but if you just taught for fun you could teach forms that fit the persons body type.

People will always have different reasons for doing martial arts. If you don't like forms it is still a good idea to learn the core sets, for CLF: sup gee kow dah, ping kuen, sheung garp dan kwun would be good core sets (I know there are others just picking a few). You could focus on fighting and bag work as much as you like but you do need the "tools" you are shown in the sets.

[Steeeve]

Aloha


Ben Ur right the old timer have all the time to train....but principle is not repetition of mouvement...the basics or core forms give the basics of a style
the most important ....I think my opinion to learn all the other advanced form just take u out of the times u could spend to mastering this basic and workout the to use the techniques Hope U understood what I mean....

Joe

I understand ur view...interesting what u said about teaching forms who fit ur body shape....I agree with that and thats what I mean maybe the best is to the instructor to teach U maybe 3 or 4 forms who fit u.....and take more time to do applications and drills....to be able to use the style...


Whats i think is modern day kung fu school teach for money.....everbody is welcome ...some people dont fit in the style he choice or dont fit in MA...
People learn form without any intention the yi ....like a dance

Quantity over quality

Forms teach the basics of a style like u said the tools ...teach the foundation....form are just the pick of the iceberk .....Now for be able to applied U have to drill with contact How to use this tools U need to practiced to build in reality...


Nice to talk with U guys
Very positive exchange
and u know what u talk about

Have a nice day
Steeve

[CLFNole]

Unfortunately if a sifu teaches kung fu as his only business and it is his only source of income you want as many students in the school as you can. You will always focus a bit more on students with great potential but you can't neglect the people who help pay the bills. I would guess if every sifu was rich they would be selective in who the accepted as students and how they taught.

It is the modern world and we all need to eat. You can still be traditional and make money but it can be difficult and usually requires some modifications from old ways.

[Steeeve]

I Agree joe

But kung fu is not for money....U give a tradition and teach for not see ur style or lineage died...kung fu is not commercial is passion to kept it alive Whaterver the style..

I teach for free ...and choice my student ....just people who want to follow me
small group I teach what i know and hope my students go outside to experimemt others styles

Im not a GM but dont want a commercial school ....

But like u said its not a job my income its my pleasure ....


but our discussion begin to go out of the subject:)

Steeve

[CLFNole]

By the way I am not Joe, I am Lance, Joe's kung fu brother and yes we have started to get off topic.

If you have a small group of students and want to teach them a smaller amount of forms I think it is good but I think it is important to give a good sample and include a good number of weapons.

In our school we always practiced and teach today forms, weapons, sparring, san shou, bag training, jong training, lion dancing and general self-defense. We focus on different things on different days and incorporate a lot of 2-person and sometimes 3-person drills. Classes will vary in length from 1 to 1 1/2 hours and things often continue after class.

Peace.

[Steeeve]

Peace Lance ....Sorry for call u Joe ...

Yes Basics form(2),intermediate and advanced form for Empty hands and weapons...and two men sets


If some students are more good or learn fast and are ready to go more far ....U add some forms after he complete the curiculum

[CLFNole]

That is kind of how we do it. The ciriculum of the school does have a good number of forms but no all of them. If people stay around long enough (most of which don't) they could learn more.

[Steeeve]

Lance

Im not a CLF players ...

But I know a little bit about CLF...

Ur from LKH CLF Right....

ur basic is Che kuen and siu mui fa ? Do U have the basics Ng lun ma and ng lun choi which is more basic routine put together to train the stance and the basics (punch ,blocks)?

just interest to know more about ur lineage since the late Sifu Lee Koon Hung is a great men in CLF....

I have another questions about the poon kiu ....Im a little bit confuse ...
poon kiu for some look like a inward circular motion for parry or cover the the upper gate and the lower gate during the motion...... and ur lineage ur refer poonkiu like a kind of downward palm up motion(like a tan sao in WC going dwn in circular motion )after u follow gumsau and a strike

Thank
Steeve

[CLFNole]

We have lie ma and che kuen which are just slang names from ng lun ma and ng lun choy.

As far as poon kiu goes it is an inward parrying block. The motion you are referring, which is a double arm motion we call sheung poon kiu but in actuality the correct name would be daht jeurng, cum jeurng. The daht jeurng is similar I believe to what you called tan sow.

I can't remember if this emerged in the US as we were learning chinese on the fly and the name took. I'll have to check how they referred to it in Hong Kong to see if we screwed this up or it was just a general term used for this series of movements.

Peace.

[Satori Science]

I am a Bak Hsing Kwoon student. And I agree with several comments made. I firmly believe that the more proficient you are at a solid repitoir of techniques the better off you are. In our Bak Hsing ciriculum there are three patterns that are pre-balck sash. a foundation and two intermediate fighting forms that are progressive and teach two styles and skill sets. Then past black sash Sifu teaches the three original first generation forms coming from Tam Sam, first Sup Jee (and after this has been passed Di Sup Jee or big frame which has about 40 extra movements) Then Kow Da and Ping Kune.

We also teach 4 progressive northern forms pre-black sash and one advanced pattern. And then a variety of mostly heavily northern influneced weapon sets, but for the most part the kids learn the most when it comes to volume, most adults pick one (or in some cases a few) and specialize.

But even these take years and years to perfect and execute with the correct speed, power and balance. then comes breath control, eye spirit and presence.

The real emphasis in our style is Gung and fighting. Tam Sam did not know a lot of techniques(compared to a hundred forms i mean) he had three patterns and a staff form. In fact he was a master of his unique footwork, the running horse, the Leen Wan Chop Choi (cyclical and returning panther fist) and a gwa-sow (with a little tiger claw mixed in for good measure) and was one of the five southern Shaolin tigers. Dave Lacey said once, "it is not the length of you knowledge but the depth."

not tht i don't love patterns becasue i do, i am always excited and eger when i get to learn a new weapon or hand set, but that does not happen very often. I definately agree, with Sifu Joe when he said the longer you train basics the simpler picking up new forms becomes. Sifu made me train Sui Lum 6 (northern foundation form) for almost 3 years. Every time i would ask to learn something new he would say, "no but we can correct sui lum 6) but then when he taught me sui lum 8 we got through the whole form in about 20 minutes.

[Fu-Pow]

We have lie ma and che kuen which are just slang names from ng lun ma and ng lun choy.

As far as poon kiu goes it is an inward parrying block. The motion you are referring, which is a double arm motion we call sheung poon kiu but in actuality the correct name would be daht jeurng, cum jeurng. The daht jeurng is similar I believe to what you called tan sow.

I can't remember if this emerged in the US as we were learning chinese on the fly and the name took. I'll have to check how they referred to it in Hong Kong to see if we screwed this up or it was just a general term used for this series of movements.

Peace.

I think the seung puhn kiuh name came from the motion of the hand not doing the daht jeung and kam jeung. It looks like the "second half" of the puhn kiuh circle.

For the record Mak Sifu calls it Puhn Kiuh also.

[thedoodey]

hey guys i'm wondering if you guys can help me with my [gwai mahs/lau mahs)] aka twisting horse.......i have a difficult time maintaining my balance when i do a gwa cup into lau ma, what methods/steps have u taken to improve your balance?
or am i just suck?

[jari]

If I understand correctly the twisting stance is very transitional stance. Therefore, staying in that stance for a "long" time is not usefull...? Use the momentum of the twist/rotation and focus on the following step/stance. Rotating your hips to from one extreme to the other might also be helpful.

These are just my 2 cents....I´m sure these tips are quite obvious...


-j-

[CLFNole]

In our lineage we typically do gwa/cup in a gong ma (bow stance) rather than a lau ma (twist stance). We will however do gwa/cum in a twist stance which is quite easy to maintain balance because the gwa and twist are happening at the same time with the cum and final sink into the stance happening at the same time.

I played around with what you were talking about and had no trouble with the stance. I think the key might be to not over-extend with the cup choy and to sink the with the front leg while coming to the toe on the back leg all at the same time. The sinking of the cup together with the sinking of the lau ma.

Hope this helps.

[Steeeve]

Satori

Interesting posting....


From what u write here U learned mostly the Bak Sil lum first ....The Clf is keep for advanced....

Are U from GM LAi Hung/lineage?

Steeve