WHF Lineage Ling Forms

[mooyingmantis]

Below is a list of Ling sets that Hon-chiu Wong mentions in his book A Discourse on the History of Praying Mantis Boxing in China for the Last One Hundred Years. These are found among lists of 36 emptyhand forms, three man sets and weapon forms.

Page 214

Two Man Spring Leg Fourteen Roads
Two Man Crushing Steps
Two Man Eighteen Old Men
Two Man Avoiding Hardness
Two Man Piercing Fist
Two Man White Ape Exits Cave
Two Man White Ape Steals Peach
Two Man Black Tiger Criss-Cross
Two Man Plum Flower Fist
Two Man Small Motion Pattern
Two Man Praying Mantis Exits Cave
Two Man Second Road Essentials

Does anyone here teach or practice these?

Richard A. Tolson

[Young Mantis]

I practice some of those sets. You can check my Sifu, Tony Chuy's website to see the list of forms including the Ling forms he teaches.

http://www.northernmantis.com/forms.html

Vance

[Oso]

Pong Lai practices 7 Star versions of Beng Bu and 18 Elders with ling.

I only know Beng Bu...Yu Shan or 18elders or K. Brazier would need to chime in on others.

Caveat: Master Shi Zheng Zhong has modified most everything we do to reflect his personal thoughts on Mantis in general (caveat: I think. NOT a "Pong Lai Statement"). :)

Richard, I greatly appreciate the time you are putting in to your translations. You're adding to my notebooks greatly.

[mooyingmantis]

Vance,
Thanks for the link!
I see that he teaches Black Tiger Steals the Heart Partner Form (not in the WHF list), but doesn't teach the Black Tiger Criss-Cross Partner Form (in the WHF list).
Any insights into this? BTW, not a criticism, just a query.
I am familiar with both of these single man sets, but I have not seen the Ling version to these.

Oso,
Thanks for the kind words! Like Biggie Laoshi, I want to make as much mantis knowledge available as possible.
I am really looking forward to seeing Pong Lai one of these days. Hopefully, it will be soon!

[yu shan]

Matt I think your correct on your assumption about Master Shi and his ling sets. It was very interesting hearing Shibo Braziers story about the beginnings of ling forms.

[Oso]

yea, I was drawing from stories like that in my assumption...

lol, i need to add another line to my sig:

"anything I say about Pong Lai is mostly speculation on my part and should not be considered the absolute truth.":p

[Young Mantis]

Vance,
Thanks for the link!
I see that he teaches Black Tiger Steals the Heart Partner Form (not in the WHF list), but doesn't teach the Black Tiger Criss-Cross Partner Form (in the WHF list).
Any insights into this? BTW, not a criticism, just a query.
I am familiar with both of these single man sets, but I have not seen the Ling version to these.

Richard,

Thanks for pointing that out. I am not sure how it was missed. In one of our school journals, printed in 2000 for our school's 18th anniversary, Sifu lists the forms of our school along with advancement requirements for each level. In that journal, Ling Hahk Fu Gow Tsah is listed. I am not sure if the ommission on the website was simply an oversight but I will look into it. Thanks for noticing. Your eye for detail is extraordinary.

As for the Black Tiger Steals the Heart Partner Form, it is more of an exercise or drill than a form which is why on our website, it is not with the Ling forms. This form however solely trains this one technique and also teaches a type of circle walking while facing an opponent. I don't have my copy of Wong Hon Chiu's book in front of me but I will check when I get home. We do not have a solo set called Hahk Fu Tao Sum so there is then of course no Ling set either.

Vance

[xiao hu yan]

Praying Mantis Exits Cave

praying mantis has got a cave????

[mooyingmantis]

As for the Black Tiger Steals the Heart Partner Form, it is more of an exercise or drill than a form which is why on our website, it is not with the Ling forms. This form however solely trains this one technique and also teaches a type of circle walking while facing an opponent. I don't have my copy of Wong Hon Chiu's book in front of me but I will check when I get home. We do not have a solo set called Hahk Fu Tao Sum so there is then of course no Ling set either.

Vance

Vance,
I also noticed that in the list, the Chinese characters for Black Tiger Steals the Heart (黑 虎 偷 心) is translated as Black Tiger Ambushes Partner form.



Praying Mantis Exits Cave

praying mantis has got a cave????

Xiao,
Only the female!

Richard

[Young Mantis]

Vance,
I also noticed that in the list, the Chinese characters for Black Tiger Steals the Heart (黑 虎 偷 心) is translated as Black Tiger Ambushes Partner form.

Richard

Richard,

Sifu Tony Chuy chose not to translate this form name literally word for word to better illustrate the tactic or strategy of this form. As I am sure you have discovered by now, form names often have more complex meanings than their individual words convey. The "Hahk Fu Tao Sum" name is broken down as such.

First, the "Hahk Fu" or Black Tiger. Actually, there are no such things as black tigers. So what does the this mean? While 黑 can be most basically translated as black, in this case it would depict a tiger lying in the bush thus in darkness and hiding, waiting to pounce on its prey. However, our English translation did leave this part alone because it would have been even more confusing to translate as "Hidden Tiger".

Next, the "Tao Sum" or Steals the Heart now in reference to a waiting and hiding tiger seems more appropriate to translate as ambush since that is what it is doing when finally striking out at the unsuspecting prey.

How does this relate to the form? The actual technique that is most often attributed to this name is the horse stance, low straight punch. But this form and its name teaches a series of techniques that set up, lead, or trap the opponent into the named technique. We first attack high to divert the opponents attention and to create an opening below for the final and sudden sink down punch.

So the practitioner is the black tiger that ambushes its opponent with this technique.

I know that this form and its name was documented by WHF himself in a book that was never commercially printed. My Sifu once showed me a copy of this book that included photos of WHF himself demonstrating this form with a student. It included his notes on the form and a description of the name.

I hope this gives you a renewed view on some of the form names. Many are not meant to be literal as our friend xiao hu yan may be questioning.

Also, though you say it is not listed in WHF's list, you are correct that it is not in the Ling list which it shouldn't be but it is listed in the very next section of Wong Hon Chiu's book. The next section titled Sau Faht which also includes among the list other two man drill/forms such as Pahk Awn, Dzeem Sau, Maw Poon Sau to name a few which are listed on our website as well.

Vance

[mooyingmantis]

Vance,
Thank you for the added information! :)
Now I understand what you were saying in the previous post.
We play this technique the same way. It was just the terminology that threw me off. What, me anal!!!! (Doing my best Alfred E. Newman imitation)
No offense was intended, I hope none was taken. :o
Richard

[Young Mantis]

Richard,

Of course, no offense taken. I just try my best to elaborate on any questions regarding the LGY/WHF lineage based on what has been passed on to me by my Sifu, Tony Chuy.

Vance

[mooyingmantis]

Vance,
At what level are the Black Tiger Criss-Cross and the Two Man Black Tiger Criss-Cross sets taught?
I remember a post where Jochen Wolfgramm mentioned that Shifu Lee taught the BTCC set in the children's class.
The idea of "black" tiger being a tiger that hides in the shadows is very interesting. I had never heard that explanation, but it certainly makes sense. How would you interpret gaau cha or "criss-cross"?
Thanks in advance!
Richard

[Young Mantis]

Richard,

黒虎交叉 - Hahk Fu Gow Tsah - Black Tiger Intercepting is taught at our school when the student has reached intermediate level. It is a sophisticated 7 Star form similar to Bung Bo, Daw Ghong, Sub Baht Sau in that it includes many continously linked techniques to setup the opponent although this form specializes in many locking or trapping techniques of both the arms and the legs.

We translate Gow Tsah with intercepting although it is only one usage of the term. Gow Tsah as you point out also literally translates as criss cross which describes how many of the techniques physically resemble.

Like the previous form name discussed, the "black tiger" again symbolizes the practitioner setting up the opponent, waiting or trapping the opponent until a sudden finishing technique.

The criss cross definition represents the techniques that either try to cross/trap/lock the opponents hands and feet like in the 'dung pok deep jows'. The opponents arms are locked like in an 'X' and at the same time, our lead leg steps behind the opponents to trap the leg and to be used as a takedown but the legs then also form a 'X' pattern. Also in the last section of the form, the sequences that follow the double mantis grab, the shooting of the arms form another criss cross pattern. These are just some examples.

Vance