The "Hakutsuru" Question?

[Minghequan]

What are your thoughts on the connection touted between Okinawan Karate and White Crane?

What of "Hakutsuru". Does it have any connection to real White Crane?

Let's please hear your thoughts!

[Mufahok]

Here's Ruan Dong answer.

"Ruan Dong then comes in for interview. A 73 year old Fuzhou Calling Crane Master. I have heard a lot about him from people on previous trips. We are allowed to sit in. Whilst a room with better light is prepared we sit and chat. It strikes me as strange that the atmosphere is so relaxed and there is a famed Master just sitting here with us.

He is thin and very happy looking. He has wonderful posture. No, he is not thin, he is small. He has all his hair, dark tanned skin and lively eyes that have a sad-looking beauty about them. He speaks a Fuzhou dialect, not educated to speak Mandarin. He is 7th Dan level. To get higher he would need to publish but he can't because of his lack of education.

We are told he teaches Tai Chi every morning, cycling to the square at 5am. He has lots of titles from lots of organisations on his business card.

He is very at ease. Not impatient as people run around arranging things. He can't remember his birthday and says his ID is wrong. He tells of his Kung Fu lineage, which encompasses Yong Chun, Fuzhou, Singapore, Taiwan and Okinawa. His family village is called Crane because of all the people learning Crane Style of Wushu. However, it is difficult to give an accurate history, as there are no records."

Extracted from http://www.kungfu-taichi.com/servlet/kungfoo/Action/Resource/ResourceKey/272

So according to Ruan Dong, Okinawa Karate is absolutely part of Calling Crane lineage.

[Minghequan]

Mufahok,

Thank you for sharing this. I greatly appreciate it.

[Minghequan]

Does anybody else have any views to share?

[wuzuquan]

from what i know there was ajapanese chap by the name of matsumara i believe who spent 10-12 years travelling and training in fujian. he has something to do with the origin okinawan kaarte particularly goju ryu.

there system contain sanchin, takin from the white crane sanzhan form but is more muscular...

you can also see some similar hand movements in their forms. although the karate is entirly more linear it does hold some essence of white crane.

[mantid1]

I think they are connected without a doubt. I will go further on to say that I believe that fukien white crane is the mother of okinawan white crane. That is how the history is taught by the okinawan masters anyway:)

Get the book by george alexander called "okinawa Island of Karate" . It gives dates of the okinawan master travels to sounthern china to continue thier studies. There are even some very old pictures of these okinawan masters practicing white crane.

[Minghequan]

Thanks for the replies. How big of an influence do you think Fujian White Crane has had on Okinawan Karate? What about "Hakutsuru?"

[mantid1]

I think it has had a very big influence on okinawan karate.

[Leto]

I have heard that the hakutsuru kata may be a compilation of techniques from a few different forms that were learned by Matsumura. Matsumura is the founder of the Shorin Ryu line of karate. Shorin Ryu is more linear, and looks a bit less like its Chinese roots than Goju and Uechi Ryu. Higashionna Kanryo is the founder of the modern Goju Ryu line, he was the teacher of Miyagi Chojun. He learned in China, in Fuzhou, from a teacher known to the Okinawans as Ryuryo Ko. his real name was possibly Xie Zhongxiang. He also probably learned from other teachers, as the Chinese didn't take on foreigners as full disciples/live-in students. So what is today Goju Ryu has a great deal of influence from southern white crane style, which can still be seen. Also, five ancestors fist and possibly dragon boxing. As was mentioned it includes sanchin, which has versions that are still practiced in white crane styles today.
Hakutsuru is only known in the Matsumura orthodox style, founded by Hohan Soken in the twentieth century. According to his tradition, Matsumura kept some traditions only within his own family, only teaching his son. His head student was Anko Itosu, who taught many of the most famous Okinawan masters of the early twentieth century. Most Shorin Ryu styles bear the influence of Itosu more than anyone else, as he invented the five pinan kata which are used in almost every style, and some say he was responsible for creating two of the three naihanchi katas (the first naihanchi kata was passed down by matsumura, and was probably derived from the style of one of the many Chinese men who taught on Okinawa from time to time. Naihanchi is very old, and was passed down by Matsumura's contemporaries also)
Hohan Soken was taught by Nabi Matsumura, the son of the famous Matsumura, and from him learned Hakutsuru. It is said that Matsumura may have been sent to China for an indeterminate period of time, during his employ as a palace guard for the Okinawan King. If he learned any white crane kung fu, it must have been during these travels, and he must have kept it secret from his students, only teaching it to his son. The traditional Shorin Ryu kata possibly have elements of several different Chinese styles. It is hard to tell from the way they are practiced today. The kata Rohai, which is from the Tomari village tradition that was incorporated into some Shorin Ryu styles, has a definate white crane feel. A kata called Gojushiho, which means fifty four steps, may be related to a chinese form called fifty four steps of the black tiger, which is referenced in the bubishi. It's old name on Okinawa was Useishi, which is an Okinawan way of pronouncing a Chinese way of saying "fifty four". Gojushiho also contains a few techniques which are generally considered crane style, such as the beak hand.
A technique which occurs in almost every shorin ryu kata is what the japanese call the "knife hand block". The move is really not so much a block, but it is called that way due to misineterpretation of application, I believe. It employs a whipping motion, striking with the back of the hand, which is very typical of the white crane style. The Japanese misinterpret it as blocking with forearm, and the shotokan school performs the technique differently than the Okinawan styles due to this misinterpretation.

Other styles which are said to have possibly influenced Okinawan karate are Lohan Quan, or monk fist (which might account for some of the harder, long range techniques). Also southern dragon style, in Uechi Ryu...HuQuan in Goju Ryu (it was said one of Chojun Miyagi's Chinese teachers on Okinawa was a tiger praticioner.)

"Bubushi: The Bible of Karate", translated and commentary by Patrick McCarthy,
is a good book to start for this type of research. By now, the stuff contained in this book is old news for most people, but if you've never read it definately pick it up. Bubishi is the Japanese name for a Chinese text which was passed down by a few Okinawan masters. The text is about white crane history and technique, herbal medicine, meridians and dian xue technique, and fighting strategies from monk fist boxing. The title might throw kung fu people off, but the book actually is a text of Chinese martial arts.

[mantid1]

Leto


Great post:)

Thanks for all of that info!

[Mufahok]

My 2 copper coins:-

Going by anecdotes, names and resemblance in forms might not be exact.

If you just take Southern Fujian White Crane for instance, different lines would give you dissimilar versions of histories, dates and descendents. In some case the disparities are blatant. To stretch these to Okinawa/Japan and expect accurateness is, to me, expecting a tad to much.

Names are another Pandora box.

Take :-

1. Seisan or 13 in Karate. 13 is pronounced as “Siak San” in Fuzhou and “Chuck Sar” in MingNam (Fujian). There are 2 White Crane forms with this in their monikers; “Saik San” in Fuzhou Ancestral Crane and “13 Royal Defenders” in Fujian Yong Chun BaiHe. Looking at all these forms, it’s obvious that they are all separate entities in forms and principles. Only the number is recurring.

2. Neisheshi or 24 in Karate. Read as “Nay Saik Si” in Fuzhou and “Ni Chuck Si” in Fujian. There is a Southern Fo Jia Quan form named “24 steps”. Again only commonality is the number 24.

3. Suparinbei or 108. This number is really fascinating in the context of CKF. Appears everywhere in Northern/Southern internal and external styles. Buddhist friends explained that this has something to do with their philosophy and Shaolin embodied this in their 108 Lohan forms. There is also a 108 Steps form in Tiger Boxing and Hungga FuHok is 108 movements long (so I was told).The long Yang Tai Chi form is also sometimes known as 108 steps. However, the connection with karate’s 108 is again questionable.

4. Gojushiho or 54. Don’t think there is such a form in White Crane but Southern Tai Chor does 3 Sanchin forms. Each is 18 steps long and sometimes done in succession as one long form. So you got a form that is 54 steps and older Tai Chor folks called this 54 steps or “Ngo Chuck Si Por”. Another noteworthy point; in some versions of Gojushiho, the kata ends with a “drunken” technique. In Tai Chor, there is a form done after learning Sanchin known as “Liao Chin”. This form ends with an almost similar “drunken” technique.

If one were to examine resemblances, I think there are 2 Karate forms that top the list.

1. Sanchin. Most Karate Sanchin looks a little like Yong Chun BaiHe SanChin. However most Karate researchers would point to MingHe as their primary influence and MingHe (as done on mainland) don’t even do a Sanchin form now. Most MingHe lines start training with Babulien before going on to HuaBa etc.. Even MingHe outside China don’t do the “standard” Sanchin. They do a unique “Sanjin” form which bears little likeness to the familiar Sanchin. So how did this Karate/MingHe tie come about? I think the possible answer lies with MingHe, the “old” MingHe. Some Fuzhou MingHe lines, in fact, do another Sanchin form known as “Tiger Crane Fist”. Standard Sanchin but hand shape alternating between open finger jab and clenched fist. The open fingers symbolize Crane and the fist, the Tiger. Now if you look at this Sanchin and compare it with Karate’s, the idea that they are related isn’t that far-fetched.

2. Tensho. Take this kata and match up with MingHe’s Sanjin and we could be looking at a common source.

Having said all that, looking at outward similarities can only get us so far. Like someone mentioned in the “3 Steps Push” thread, it's the “engine” that we should really be concerned with.

A form can be done in so many ways and still not deviate the principles/concept that spawned it. So to say a Karate kata, is or isn’t kung fu related, simply going by appearance is ineffective.

Personally, I think the biggest obstacle to the unraveling of this Karate/Kung Fu connection is “knowledge”

In order to call, you got to understand both ends clearly.

A researcher then needs to be somewhat like a translator. You need to be conversant in both languages in order to do an adequate translation job.

How many researchers can say that?

Thanks.

[Wong Ying Home]

There has been some recent discussion onanother board that the style Gan Rou Chuan hard soft style may have also had some influence on GoJu

[mantis108]

Hi Mufahok and All,

I would have to say the information shared in this thread so far is very impression. Thank you all for the input.

I agreed with you that as research of CMA and Kung Fu in particular we should set the bar higher. I also echo this point:


Having said all that, looking at outward similarities can only get us so far. Like someone mentioned in the “3 Steps Push” thread, it's the “engine” that we should really be concerned with.

A form can be done in so many ways and still not deviate the principles/concept that spawned it. So to say a Karate kata, is or isn’t kung fu related, simply going by appearance is ineffective.

Personally, I think the biggest obstacle to the unraveling of this Karate/Kung Fu connection is “knowledge”

In order to call, you got to understand both ends clearly.

A researcher then needs to be somewhat like a translator. You need to be conversant in both languages in order to do an adequate translation job.

How many researchers can say that?

I would like to also share some thoughts about the numerology:


Names are another Pandora box.

Indeed they are. A Name in Chinese is a form of empowerment. So, it's not something that we can overlook lightly. We should also long at the historical and cultural back with regard of name designations.


Take :-

1. Seisan or 13 in Karate. 13 is pronounced as “Siak San” in Fuzhou and “Chuck Sar” in MingNam (Fujian). There are 2 White Crane forms with this in their monikers; “Saik San” in Fuzhou Ancestral Crane and “13 Royal Defenders” in Fujian Yong Chun BaiHe. Looking at all these forms, it’s obvious that they are all separate entities in forms and principles. Only the number is recurring.

13 is quite an interesting number and many different iconic figures are associated with it in Chinese culture both in grass root spiritual believes and pop culture.

The story of 13 Taibao (13 Grand Protectors) a from popular martial novel. I can't recall the title at the moment. It is about a gang of 13 tough warriors who're also adopted sons of a King of a feudal kingdom during the late Tang dynasty. They are given the title of Tai Bao which does not hold official power. But they functioned as body guards to the King. The favorite one out of the 13 is number 13 by the name of Li ChuanHao (sp?). His advantures included eating some steamed dough in the shape of 9 oxen and 2 tigers; thus, having the strength of those animals.

Now here's what I believe 13 Taibao is created within the Yong Chun Baihe.

The interesting thing about Yong Chun He Fa is that its progenator, Fang Qi niang, or her family was said to have worshiped a Diety (a martial arts patron) that is related to a branch of Daoism called the Liu Ren sect. In Liu Ren sect, there is also worshipping of a group of 13 Dieties. Amongst the Dieties, there are White Lotus Pontiff, White Crane Immortal, Monkey King, and oddly Shaolin Ancestor (Bordhidharma?).

So is it logical to think that the form is in fact paying homage to the patron Dieties and the vows the family might have taken? We know that at the end of each Yong Chun crane form there is a lotus salute before closing the form signifying where the root of the style is. Why would some of these 13 dieties seemed to have been either banned cult, martial art styles, and insurgents (ie White Crane Immortal could be Tiandihui's leader Chan Jinnan). Are these 13 dieties meant to be a symbolic list of resistance's union force to fight the early Qing rulers? More importantly, is the Yong Chun Crane really the system that is created with the intention to train the troops of resistance or is it just another grass root level art? Could it be possible that early white crane stylists saw themselves as grand protectors of the Ming Royal and loyalists? Is this where all the legends of Southern Shaolin begins?


2. Neisheshi or 24 in Karate. Read as “Nay Saik Si” in Fuzhou and “Ni Chuck Si” in Fujian. There is a Southern Fo Jia Quan form named “24 steps”. Again only commonality is the number 24.

24 is a common number especially with the Chinese farming community. It is the 24 solar terms that they depend on for their activities. Traditional Kung Fu also based on 4 strikes, 8 protocols/methods, and 12 functions (4+8+12=24). It is of note that the 12 functions often appear in keyword form. In a more Baihe specific term it's Fa (Dharma), Shi (disposition), Dao (Path), Shen (status), and Ba Gang Shi Er Rou (some had Er Shi Si Rou).


3. Suparinbei or 108. This number is really fascinating in the context of CKF. Appears everywhere in Northern/Southern internal and external styles. Buddhist friends explained that this has something to do with their philosophy and Shaolin embodied this in their 108 Lohan forms. There is also a 108 Steps form in Tiger Boxing and Hungga FuHok is 108 movements long (so I was told).The long Yang Tai Chi form is also sometimes known as 108 steps. However, the connection with karate’s 108 is again questionable.

In Hinduism, Vishu the preserver, is associated wth the number 108 as well as lotus. Buddha is said to be an Avatar (he's the 9th descend) of Vishnu. So Buddha is associated with 108 as well since Buddhism is derived from Hinduism. In Chinese, 108 represents Men in the Heavan (36), Earth (72), and Men (108) trinity. We all have Buddha nature - 108. The total number of 216 (36+72+108) is the numeric value of all the Gang Yao (solid lines) of the Heaven hexagram in the Yijing (classic of change). Lotus is a symbol of the 3 states (Sea, Land, and Air/space) of this physcial world.


4. Gojushiho or 54. Don’t think there is such a form in White Crane but Southern Tai Chor does 3 Sanchin forms. Each is 18 steps long and sometimes done in succession as one long form. So you got a form that is 54 steps and older Tai Chor folks called this 54 steps or “Ngo Chuck Si Por”. Another noteworthy point; in some versions of Gojushiho, the kata ends with a “drunken” technique. In Tai Chor, there is a form done after learning Sanchin known as “Liao Chin”. This form ends with an almost similar “drunken” technique.

54 is half of 108. It is somewhat associated with Luohan. It is also associated with the muscial note "Shuang" which is also of the fire phase. The upside down fire character is found in the plague of many southern kung fu especially Hakka styles' alters.

Just some thoughts for now.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[jack]

Any video file to share?

[TenTigers]

"A technique which occurs in almost every shorin ryu kata is what the japanese call the "knife hand block". The move is really not so much a block, but it is called that way due to misineterpretation of application, I believe. It employs a whipping motion, striking with the back of the hand, which is very typical of the white crane style. The Japanese misinterpret it as blocking with forearm, and the shotokan school performs the technique differently than the Okinawan styles due to this misinterpretation. "
This technique appears as "hut yee sao" or "Beggar's Hands" in Tang Fong Hung Kuen's Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen. It is also used in Fukien/Hakka-based systems, and is not a backhand slap, but an interception/deflection using the outside/underside of the forearm, which leads to strikes, traps,locking,etc.

[Mufahok]

Since the name “Ruan Dong” has been mentioned frequently in this forum, thought it might be appropriate to post a little something by him.

This is a truncated clip showing the opening movements from his long MingHe form; this form is made up of movements from several old MingHe forms with a touch of “Wushu” added.

Thanks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izkS8K0kc_A

[Mufahok]

Just curious about this;

To you, what is White Crane?

Or what do you normally associate with White Crane Boxing?

Thanks.

[Mufahok]

Here's another clip:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxD29u5fYy0

This is 5 Ancestors' Sanchin.

Thanks.

[Mufahok]

Got here 2 clips of the same form.

First is Fuzhou MingHe Babulien or 8 Linked Steps. This is the “old” version done mostly by the Singapore Fuzhou MingHe group. Incidentally, this is the same form found in Ruan Dong’s recently issued DVD.

The 2nd clip is Karate’s “Happoren” which is, essentially, Kanji for “Babulien”.

Same form? You tell me.

Thanks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjgDec0Fqfc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV1jD7_0WRw

[shantung]

The "Happoren" only looks like a bit like the MingHe BaibuLien.
One or three movements....;)

I know a "Happoren" that looks like more than the Minghe BaibuLien.:D
It is teaching by Hanshi Patrick McCarthy,8.Dan Koryu Uchinadi (Karate) He is standing in the back of your little clip. His "Happoren" comes from Jin Jingfu sifu, and looks more than the Baibulien Form.

regards
shantung

[Mufahok]

Hi Shantung,

Yes I do have McCarthy’s Babulien clip.

In fact, I have 7 different versions of this form done by various groups; White Crane and Karate. One feature a very old Fuzhou Master (mainland) doing a very raw version of BBL which looks almost exactly like the clip I posted.

I would love to post them for public viewing but these are given by private collectors and friends for my study. The original owners are not comfortable with public viewing.

Have you seen Karate “Nipapo”?

I got a clip with a Japanese Karate Master performing this and it quite obvious that MingHe is the source.

Thanks.

ps Are you a Crane stylist ?

[shantung]

Hi Mufahok,

No I am sorry, but I am not a crane stylist.
Starting "Martial Arts" with Lam Sao Lim, over a Northern Family Style praying mantis Style now to Kenju-ryu Kempo-Jutsu.

But I have a deep interest in the crane styles. So I learned Nepai, Happoren and Hakutsuru from Hanshi McCarthy, and I am always looking for the oldest form from the source.

I have seen many versions of Nipaipo. McCarthy Sensei told me ones that Nipaipo is Mabuni Senseis Version of Nepai...:o

What a shame that you can not share the "files", I think I would love MingHe 28 Steps....;)

Regards
Shantung

[Mufahok]

Shantung,

I’ll see what I can do about posting “ErshiBa” or “28 Steps”.

Got a few in my collection and I think the best bet is to talk to Sifu Eric Ling about posting the one he gave me.

In the meantime, enjoy this one:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUy3ntWztJk



This is from Shaking Crane and I think the back hand slapping technique talked about in the earlier post can be seen repeatedly here.

Thanks.

[shantung]

Dear Mufahok

Thank you for sharing the "Shaking Crane" , great stuff. :)


regards
Shantung