Complete CMA system & Cross training.

[PangQuan]

Just going to voice a few thoughts that popped into my head on this subject.

we have all heard tell of complete systems of kung fu. some have had the opportunity to find a master in such and have even been able to gain mastership themselves.

what is the chance an average american/westerner or even a chinese/asian would be so lucky as to enter the decipleship of such a master?

it seems even if you are to find such a master, at what point does one realize this and then commit to the dedication and time it takes to intake an entire "complete" system?

it seems increasingly that this type of situation is more rare, and harder to find.

with this being the case, there are many, many martial artists trying to fill in the blanks, and "collect" a complete system. through various sources we collect material, filter through it, find what works and fit it into a full time, effective program for training.

it seems we are working towards a goal that has been worked on in the past, though through many forms of resistance much of the work has been lost, hidden, or reduced to small select pockets of dedicated traditionalists who understand adaption to current times.

at what point can a mixed martial artist claim to have a complete system, one that has been refined to the point of long standing systems that have been cultured, and grown for many generations of practitioners.

are these men working toward much of what was the same goal of our past masters of martial arts?

we all know there is a lot of B.S. out there. but there is also some legit stuff too. whether you have seen it or not.


just a random thought.

[PangQuan]

it seems to me that many of the CMA systems you will find are not complete, so much as they are full.

full of stuff, but not complete.

is it a dependency that has been imbeded in the CMA mindset that "our style is complete" (where in fact, many times it is not) that has hindered us? i think in many cases yes.

why the resistance to change and update?

[SevenStar]

it seems even if you are to find such a master, at what point does one realize this and then commit to the dedication and time it takes to intake an entire "complete" system?

In all honesty, to have or find such a system (at least from a tma standpoint) is impossible, at least from a proficiency perspecitve. It's hard enough trying to find time to fit qigong, weapons, basics, forms, throwing, sparring and iron palm into one class. Trying to add grappling also just would not work. Why? because there is not enough time to focus on them all, plain and simple. prior to starting cma, I had about 6 months of grappling, both standup and ground, and I was able to school everyone in my cma class on the ground, except those who had wrestled in high school and/or college. they "taught" some grappling, and they "taught" some throws, but that was nothing compared to the training I had where I was sparring stand up and ground in every class. Likewise, anyone from my judo class would've been tooled by them in striking oriented sparring.

Everyone will always be deficient SOMEWHERE. currently, I strike and grapple. But I haven't touched a weapon since my days in cma and kali, other than just playing around with some kalistas I know. I know my forms have gone to he11, cuz I don't train them anymore. So from an overall perspective, you can consider those as holes in my training. But at this point, those are holes that I can live with. And I think that's the main thing - you have to find your own path and fill it as completely as possible. My chosen path is more streetfight and ring fight oriented, due to my desire to compete and to my job. forms, qi gong, iron palm and weapons just don't fit in right there, right now. that's not to say that they don't have their benefits, but they aren't necessities for my path.



at what point can a mixed martial artist claim to have a complete system, one that has been refined to the point of long standing systems that have been cultured, and grown for many generations of practitioners.

to a "mixed martial artist" a complete system is striking and grappling. period. the jkd model of mixing lots of things is not the mma mindset.


are these men working toward much of what was the same goal of our past masters of martial arts?


even past masters weren't known for everything. they were mostly famous for only one or two aspects of ma, or possibly even for one technique. I think it is our own nostalgic look on old schoolers that leads us to believe they were masters of everything.

[BigPandaBear]

There is no "complete" styles, only "complete" artists.

Even ancient CMA masters crosstrained. One big example is Bagua and Xiying.

That said, someone who studied Bjj and Muay Thai would be a more well-rounded fighter than someone who only studied a given CMA or Karate. Training is the deal breaker there.

[SevenStar]

There is no "complete" styles, only "complete" artists.

Even ancient CMA masters crosstrained. One big example is Bagua and Xiying.

That said, someone who studied Bjj and Muay Thai would be a more well-rounded fighter than someone who only studied a given CMA or Karate. Training is the deal breaker there.


the question, IMO, is did they cross train out of a desire to be more complete, or just our of a desire to learn something new? I can't imagine training two standup internal styles in a desire to be more complete, unless the standup style is more grappling oriented, like chang style taiji.

[lkfmdc]

the question, IMO, is did they cross train out of a desire to be more complete, or just our of a desire to learn something new? I can't imagine training two standup internal styles in a desire to be more complete, unless the standup style is more grappling oriented, like chang style taiji.

The former soviet union had tanks, the US had tanks

The former soviet union had missiles, the US had missiles

The former sovietn union had planes, the US had planes

Yet, they both spied on eachother to find out more about those tanks, missiles and planes. Because in war, you always want to know as much as you can about the enemy

TCMA was all about "war", everyone was the enemy, the idea was to keep your "weapons" secret and try to learn about the enemy's arsenal...

Everyone cross trained as much as they could, which was limited because of suspicion, sectarianism and in some cases just closed mindedness

[jack]

For a normal CMA system,

In unarmed combat, it is usually completed with kicks, fists, grappling & joint locks, these four subjects.

As for weaponry, it is usually completed with board-sword, spear, pole & stick, these four subjects.

These standards can’t be put onto every CMA systems because every one of it has its own standard to follow.

[BigPandaBear]

the question, IMO, is did they cross train out of a desire to be more complete, or just our of a desire to learn something new? I can't imagine training two standup internal styles in a desire to be more complete, unless the standup style is more grappling oriented, like chang style taiji.

Well the story goes that the Xiying stylist got defeated by the Bagua stylist, and the former learned the latter's style and vice versa. Xiying is more linear, and Bagua is circular, thus the 2 arts compliment each other.

[WinterPalm]

Keep in mind that many TCMA masters still don't teach you all the good stuff in the first five or ten years. I don't call it hiding, but reserving until someone is ready to learn it. Not that I put stock in legend or secret techniques, but I'm pretty sure some things are not shared openly and when you meet or train under a master, you can tell there is more to it than just repetition and technique...there is a quality.

TCMA is such a broad concept and training paradigm that there is not time to practice all components in every class. There is ground fighting, there is takedowns and trips, strikes, weapons, qi gong, kicking, very interesting and developed footwork. As a student you take all that, go home, grab another student if you can, and spend hours working on what you were taught. If you learn the lessons well, then you progress, if not, you stagnate until you are ready to move.

[SevenStar]

Well the story goes that the Xiying stylist got defeated by the Bagua stylist, and the former learned the latter's style and vice versa. Xiying is more linear, and Bagua is circular, thus the 2 arts compliment each other.


I understand that, but at the end of the day, whether you're using peng chuan or circle walking, you're still doing two similar things. To be "complete" seems like a good alternate choice would've been shuai chiao.

[SevenStar]

Keep in mind that many TCMA masters still don't teach you all the good stuff in the first five or ten years. I don't call it hiding, but reserving until someone is ready to learn it. Not that I put stock in legend or secret techniques, but I'm pretty sure some things are not shared openly and when you meet or train under a master, you can tell there is more to it than just repetition and technique...there is a quality.

TCMA is such a broad concept and training paradigm that there is not time to practice all components in every class. There is ground fighting, there is takedowns and trips, strikes, weapons, qi gong, kicking, very interesting and developed footwork. As a student you take all that, go home, grab another student if you can, and spend hours working on what you were taught. If you learn the lessons well, then you progress, if not, you stagnate until you are ready to move.


which is fine, but there still is not enough time to practice it all on a regular basis to a point where you are great at it all. SOMETHING will fall by the wayside. Also, I can understand not showing someone something before they are ready. I wouldn't teach someone a flying armbar from day one, for example, but to wait 10 years??

[David Jamieson]

What you take out of a system is exactly what you put into it.
If there are methods that are not present or lacking, then find them elsewhere.

One style is only that, one style. it can be robust as heck and still not adequately address all possible attacks and defenses.

Even the old saying from Shaolin sayd "There is enough to study that it would take three lifetimes to look at all of it" I.E you cannot learn all of it.

I don't know what the deal is with taking 10 years to learn something either. That's a bit vague. It might take you 10 years to be able to do something, say paint well after many years of practice, or perform kungfu well after many years of practice or cooking or anything really. Takes 8 years to be a surgeon after about 10 years you could be tinkering with peoples brain matter with reasonably full proficiency. I honestly don't think people have something so special to offer after 10 years where they aren't witholding for personal reasons or they're just stringing you along. But then, the whole myth of 25 years to mastery and so on has been a cowbell around the neck of kungfu for a while.

A person can train to a level of really decent proficiency in 3 years maybe 5 if they work hard. Somewhere inside that time, if the method is any good at all they will also be relatively decent fighters.

Kungfu is something that takes years, it is not really shown to you in pieces, that would be the methods. Kungfu can only come from inside you.

[Hieronim]

I understand that, but at the end of the day, whether you're using peng chuan or circle walking, you're still doing two similar things. To be "complete" seems like a good alternate choice would've been shuai chiao.

you mean your still using hocus pocus right? btw where did my other post go? I have a feeling it was your doing.

[SevenStar]

Do you still post here? My only hocus pocus was deleting many of your posts... I haven't deleted anything of yours lately though, unfortunately.

[WinterPalm]

My understanding of the time requirement is that when you learn something new it adds to what you already know. It takes time to ingrain some things and some people learn quicker than others but you cannot rush years of adaptation to a system and way of movement/combat. Sure, after three years you may have a decent level of proficency, but is that enough for the next level? I would argue that if you put the time in and go to every class, you should have developed some skill after one year or even three months...pending self-defense practice, live sparring, and lots of drilling the basics at class and on your own time.

I agree that you cannot be great at all components of martial arts and you should spend some time working your weaknesses...but we are all focusing on what we like and are best at. The more you learn the less you know and the more you work on something the less it is like work and the more it is like second nature.
Kung fu develops the body a certain way and that takes years to get good at and to fit that shape and way of movement.

My understanding is that any refutable BJJ school will not hand out a BB until ten or so years. What is so great after ten years that you deserve a BB? Time gives you that quality and development that starts from day one and that if you don't keep at it, you will not be ready for the next level...this includes meditation and character. What distinquishes a kickboxer entering year ten and one entering year two?...quality and refinement.

[SevenStar]

I agree that you cannot be great at all components of martial arts and you should spend some time working your weaknesses...but we are all focusing on what we like and are best at.

Not necessarily. In my post I wasn't saying I work what I'm best at - I said that I have no need at present for the aspects that I'm not training. My grappling is horrible - that's why I work it, although, I've had a lot less time to do so lately. When I hit the bag, I make sure to work the techniques I need improvement on. When I lift weights, I focus harder on days I train the lifts that I hate.


My understanding is that any refutable BJJ school will not hand out a BB until ten or so years. What is so great after ten years that you deserve a BB? Time gives you that quality and development that starts from day one and that if you don't keep at it, you will not be ready for the next level...this includes meditation and character. What distinquishes a kickboxer entering year ten and one entering year two?...quality and refinement.

the 10 year thing isn't necessarily true. I know people who have done it and / or will do it in less. It's entirely skill based, which is the best thing since sliced bread. for example, a white belt won't be considered for blue until he can beat the blue belts some of the time, but at least keep up with them all of the time - it ensures progress.

quality isn't necessarily what distinguishes a 10 year vet from a journeyman, but I see what you're saying. The big factor there is experience. you can be a crappy fighter, but if you are seasoned, you still have an advantage. Tank abbot was a perfect example of this.

[Hieronim]

Do you still post here? My only hocus pocus was deleting many of your posts... I haven't deleted anything of yours lately though, unfortunately.

I made a post asking sifu Ross why he thinks sparring gear is so important when in reality if your willing to put up with bruises and cuts like the old kung fu people did you can spar without it.

[SevenStar]

Nah, I didn't touch that one. someone probably thought it was a troll post.

[mantis108]

Complete CMA system would be like Latin - a relic of a mode of communication or rather a dead language. True martial arts Chinese or otherwise should be alive. It should be a living experience that has the capacity to handle new ideas and new challenges. It's much like the language that's used on the net. Is it really English? Not really (with the amount of shorthand and terms that created almost daily) although gramatically we kind of understood each other an communicate well enough for idea to flow. If it is French or some other languages, we might have a problem just dealing with the gendre of nouns or what not and we can never communicate as fluidly and seamlessly as we are.

The whole business of complete art is just that a business sell point. It's for the groupies waiting for spoon feeding. "My master's master fought so and so, my system was used to kill a thousand bandits in one night eons ago, etc" Wow, I am so lucky to be the inheritor of the system and so shalt you on the condition that you pay me a million in tution first. That's bull crap!

What we should ask ourselves is what is a revelant CMA in modern times? Why can't we learn and incorporate ground grappling into CMA. Who makes the rule? I don't think I need to tell anyone that it's those "Masters" and "inheritors" of the systems and styles who have already stopped learning and decided that learning new stuff is in bad form (pun intended). These masters already foresaken the cardinal rule of Kung Fu - hard work to perfect themselves and leave the world/community a better state as they've found it. They have succumbed to their pride and prejudice.

Many of the MMA fighters aren't BJJ black blets but they have beaten BJJ black belts once they have adequate ground knowledge (ie Matt Hughs Vs Royce Gracies). Royce is great but he's trapped by his art (BJJ) as well. Evolution sooner or later will catch up with stale artistry. So why can't a Kung Fu person implement a simple goal of working towards getting a blue belt BJJ knowledge base to improve on and evolve his overall figthing game and ability?

Mantis108

[PangQuan]

What we should ask ourselves is what is a revelant CMA in modern times? Why can't we learn and incorporate ground grappling into CMA. Who makes the rule? I don't think I need to tell anyone that it's those "Masters" and "inheritors" of the systems and styles who have already stopped learning and decided that learning new stuff is in bad form (pun intended). These masters already foresaken the cardinal rule of Kung Fu - hard work to perfect themselves and leave the world/community a better state as they've found it. They have succumbed to their pride and prejudice.

Mantis108

bravo

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[BigPandaBear]

Many of the MMA fighters aren't BJJ black blets but they have beaten BJJ black belts once they have adequate ground knowledge (ie Matt Hughs Vs Royce Gracies). Royce is great but he's trapped by his art (BJJ) as well. Evolution sooner or later will catch up with stale artistry. So why can't a Kung Fu person implement a simple goal of working towards getting a blue belt BJJ knowledge base to improve on and evolve his overall figthing game and ability?


Yeah, Hughes' victory over Gracie put to rest the myth of Gracie invincibility. His Bjj training only enhanced his incredibly good wrestling skills.

[David Jamieson]

M108 you make some good points and I agree with the content of what you're saying.

You can retain everything you still have and the art you practice and you can add to it as well as far as development methods go for those attributes or ranges that your style doesn't sufficiently address with it's training methods.

Sticking to the confines of a single system that does not play out in all ranges of combat is only a detriment to your overall development as a martial artist.

Not everything is mind, but everything is mind. Including that part that stops you from expanding. :)

[gabe]

Complete CMA system would be like Latin - a relic of a mode of communication or rather a dead language. True martial arts Chinese or otherwise should be alive. It should be a living experience that has the capacity to handle new ideas and new challenges. It's much like the language that's used on the net. Is it really English? Not really (with the amount of shorthand and terms that created almost daily) although gramatically we kind of understood each other an communicate well enough for idea to flow. If it is French or some other languages, we might have a problem just dealing with the gendre of nouns or what not and we can never communicate as fluidly and seamlessly as we are.

The whole business of complete art is just that a business sell point. It's for the groupies waiting for spoon feeding. "My master's master fought so and so, my system was used to kill a thousand bandits in one night eons ago, etc" Wow, I am so lucky to be the inheritor of the system and so shalt you on the condition that you pay me a million in tution first. That's bull crap!

What we should ask ourselves is what is a revelant CMA in modern times? Why can't we learn and incorporate ground grappling into CMA. Who makes the rule? I don't think I need to tell anyone that it's those "Masters" and "inheritors" of the systems and styles who have already stopped learning and decided that learning new stuff is in bad form (pun intended). These masters already foresaken the cardinal rule of Kung Fu - hard work to perfect themselves and leave the world/community a better state as they've found it. They have succumbed to their pride and prejudice.

Many of the MMA fighters aren't BJJ black blets but they have beaten BJJ black belts once they have adequate ground knowledge (ie Matt Hughs Vs Royce Gracies). Royce is great but he's trapped by his art (BJJ) as well. Evolution sooner or later will catch up with stale artistry. So why can't a Kung Fu person implement a simple goal of working towards getting a blue belt BJJ knowledge base to improve on and evolve his overall figthing game and ability?

Mantis108


Matt Hughs has more than just a blue belt BJJ knowledge base when it comes to grappling.

[SevenStar]

Yeah, Hughes' victory over Gracie put to rest the myth of Gracie invincibility. His Bjj training only enhanced his incredibly good wrestling skills.


I don't think that myth has been propogated by anyone in several years. anyone involved in mma these days knows better than that.

[SevenStar]

Matt Hughs has more than just a blue belt BJJ knowledge base when it comes to grappling.


you completely missed his point...