Internal or External

[Average Joe]

We are all aware that every side has an internal and external side but where you attend do they teach wing chun from an internal or an external prospective. my school focuses on meeting power with power. muscle strengthening and tendon strengthening. and hardening arms and legs. Always train with a partner never punching in the air.
Also I would say that to me Wing chun is External because we do not flow with force but use our own force to redirect. I would like others comments on this.

[planetwc]

Who are you learning from?

Wing Chun != Hard Style Karate

Wing Chun flows and redirects force and uses the opponents stiffness and hard energy against themselves. Where there is a hole in the opponent's defense we are merciless in filling it with strikes.

Wing Chun is not about opposing forces CLASHING Power against Power.

It sounds as if you are learning from some hybrid school or teacher.


We are all aware that every side has an internal and external side but where you attend do they teach wing chun from an internal or an external prospective. my school focuses on meeting power with power. muscle strengthening and tendon strengthening. and hardening arms and legs. Always train with a partner never punching in the air.
Also I would say that to me Wing chun is External because we do not flow with force but use our own force to redirect. I would like others comments on this.

[Lindley]

Average Joe,

Ving Tsun does employ using leverage and attention to small details to explode with power and you may train to generate as much power as possible from less movements. But, as mentioned by these responses, it should not focus on power MEETING power.

The things you mention about hardening limbs etc. can be a good thing, but Ving Tsun strives not to HAVE TO do these things.

One can definitely introduce breathing, meditation, and controlling the power of Chi to their training to make it more "internal" and have many positive effects.

Ving Tsun Kung Fu follows the Yin and Yang of the universe.

[Average Joe]

I guess what I was meaning by power is that we don't flow with the power of the oponent in the sence that they punch at us we don't lean away from it but pak it with our own force to redirect it.
even against a hook WC does not move away from it but drops a Tan down onto it.

Take a look at the bong sao; some might see it as a hard bridge, but it is used in a very soft way, after all it represents a broken crane's wing.

I didn't realize that a bong represented a broken wing concept I just thought it represented a wing that is soft but sturdy enough to redirect force. besides I would not open a fight or directly use a bong it would be a transitional move maybe a quan, or perhaps if someone were to grab my wrist while I had them up and pushed my wrist down the elbow would raise to replace it.

Another reason that I was viewing it an an external was because of its ability to be picked up rather quick 3-5 years as opposed to 10-15 as in internal.

Would you say this wing chun is internal or external? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hbittGBwo

As for no one having or not needing to train hard if you don't then you will not be a fighter but a practitioner.

[El Guapo]

Would you say this wing chun is internal or external? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hbittGBwo

As for no one having or not needing to train hard if you don't then you will not be a fighter but a practitioner.

Cool video, sure looks external to me. That Ng Mui was one hardcore nun!

[El Guapo]

It would seem that the creator of these forums also agrees that wing chun is external. Otherwise it would fall under the "Tia Chi and the internal MA's" forum.

I.E. tai chi, wing chun, and the internal MA's........hmmm?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Wing Chun, or any other system of attack and defense starts out as purely external. The internal aspects, no matter how hard one might try, can not be taught. Not really. It can be sort of explained by one that feels it, but not completely. It is very hard to express what it is exactly. Internal comes with time and perfection of technique. Like projecting your Chi. This is a very controversial subject. It has been called pure myth, and others will tell you that it is very real. But I suppose also that it can be termed as purely technique. The better or more perfect one becomes in his technique, the more power and speed he might also have. Speed is not the objective, but fluid motion. Like water, which flows once it is released, and it continues to flow at a steady flow until it reaches it's destination. It does not move so rapidly, but it moves so steady that it can not be subdued. This comes with time and practice. With this flow comes the feeling of Chi. Of course there is the physics that come into play. Wing Chun can be very effective without any concept of the internal side of it.
Some many years ago I attended a tournement and there were all sorts of demonstrations of skill and strength. High kicks and brick breaking. As you probably know, most of this is not technique, but trickery. Like placing wood chips or pencils between the ends of the bricks or boards. This keeps them seperated and all you really have to do is break the first brick or board. Also most boards are broken with the grain. I was asked to give some sort of demonstration of technique. So I chose to do a little thing I did at home. A simple 12in x12in board that was only 1 inch thick. There is nothing hard about this. Any person with 5 minutes of instruction can snap that easily. But, I use a length of cotton sewing thread, wrapped around a thumb tack on 2 corners and hung this from an a-frame. You could lift the board up a half inch and drop it and the thread would snap every time. Now, with the very tips of my fingers, I would chip off 1 1/2 inch pieces of this board, one piece after another. I think I reduced it to 8 pieces of wood. I did break it with the grain and not across it, but even though seveal others tried it, they were unable to do it. Not only did they not break the board, but the thread would break each time they attempted it. The word was that I was shooting it with my Chi. I know I could hurt you really bad with the fingers, even punch holes over bone, but it was nothing to do with shooting Chi. It was years of iron hand and technique training. I was simply able to focus tremendous energy into the very tips of my fingers. Chi is very real, but it is not what most seem to think it is. It will not leave your finger tips. It is nothing more than perfection of technique. If you only know one hand technique, and you practiced this hand technique day in and day out, eventually, this same hand technique will become so powerful as to be devestating to an opponent.

[El Guapo]

Wing Chun, or any other system of attack and defense starts out as purely external. The internal aspects, no matter how hard one might try, can not be taught. Not really. It can be sort of explained by one that feels it, but not completely. It is very hard to express what it is exactly. Internal comes with time and perfection of technique. Like projecting your Chi. This is a very controversial subject. It has been called pure myth, and others will tell you that it is very real. But I suppose also that it can be termed as purely technique. The better or more perfect one becomes in his technique, the more power and speed he might also have. Speed is not the objective, but fluid motion. Like water, which flows once it is released, and it continues to flow at a steady flow until it reaches it's destination. It does not move so rapidly, but it moves so steady that it can not be subdued. This comes with time and practice. With this flow comes the feeling of Chi. Of course there is the physics that come into play. Wing Chun can be very effective without any concept of the internal side of it.
Some many years ago I attended a tournement and there were all sorts of demonstrations of skill and strength. High kicks and brick breaking. As you probably know, most of this is not technique, but trickery. Like placing wood chips or pencils between the ends of the bricks or boards. This keeps them seperated and all you really have to do is break the first brick or board. Also most boards are broken with the grain. I was asked to give some sort of demonstration of technique. So I chose to do a little thing I did at home. A simple 12in x12in board that was only 1 inch thick. There is nothing hard about this. Any person with 5 minutes of instruction can snap that easily. But, I use a length of cotton sewing thread, wrapped around a thumb tack on 2 corners and hung this from an a-frame. You could lift the board up a half inch and drop it and the thread would snap every time. Now, with the very tips of my fingers, I would chip off 1 1/2 inch pieces of this board, one piece after another. I think I reduced it to 8 pieces of wood. I did break it with the grain and not across it, but even though seveal others tried it, they were unable to do it. Not only did they not break the board, but the thread would break each time they attempted it. The word was that I was shooting it with my Chi. I know I could hurt you really bad with the fingers, even punch holes over bone, but it was nothing to do with shooting Chi. It was years of iron hand and technique training. I was simply able to focus tremendous energy into the very tips of my fingers. Chi is very real, but it is not what most seem to think it is. It will not leave your finger tips. It is nothing more than perfection of technique. If you only know one hand technique, and you practiced this hand technique day in and day out, eventually, this same hand technique will become so powerful as to be devestating to an opponent.

Uhhhhh yeah. Thats what I ment!

[Wu Wei Wu]

external is the effectiveness of the technique. it is empirically verifiable.

internal is the meaning attached to the technique and includes the intention behind the movement.

terms like 'chi' are loaded and if wing chun is to be taken seriously in this climate of MMA, then we must move away from mysticism.