the Dan Tien - opinions please

[Kaitain(UK)]

Just reading the thread on Internal/External where someone (Josh I think) claimed that the Dan Tien is merely a conceptual location three finger widths below the navel

I actually think it's the centre of gravity of the body - effortless movement comes about as a result of moving from the centre, i.e. you are perfectly balanced

nb:Josh may mean the same thing by saying it is conceptual rather than a physical loaction - just thought I'd clarify

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Stranger]

I am not overly familiar with tai chi, but aren't there other energy centers that you can also use to generate power from (ie. a point in your mid chest)? If you focus your energy there, wouldn't your gravity center be higher as well for the duration?

"Luminous beings are we."

[Kaitain(UK)]

However, if we sink into our posture to the best of our ability then our centre (in my experience) arrives at the spot of the dan tien

Maybe it's a more chicken and egg argument: I concentrate on my conceptual point and through doing so sink my centre of gravity to the same place OR do I sink my Centre to that spot and then place my mind there?

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Braden]

When most people in the martial arts says dantien (or any of a number of synonymous terms) they mean the lower dantien. In taoist thought, there are three of them.

Developing the lower dantien as a center of gravity, balance, movement, breathing, energy, intent, consciousness, etc is indeed an important goal.

However it is not simply a conceptual point, nor is it defined solely by one or more of those elements.

[GLW]

The lower Dantien Tan Tien or however you wish to spell it is a definite point on the Jing Luo (meridians of Qi in the body).

But, more importantly, it is also the center of gravity of the body. To verify this, try balancing your body on a rod or whatever...without injuring yourself of course.... and you will find the level where the Tan Tien is.

From a movement perspective and physics, if you move a mass from its center of gravity or center of mass, you are moving it the moste efficient way. There is the least amount of energy loss and the greatest potential for energy transfer.

The other thing is that if you model this movement, you can idealize it as a point mass and the equations, analysis, and such becomes MUCH easier.

In building things this is one of the reasons you use a plum line...wrapping things up you find the center of mass of weird shaped things...and can determine stability....

Applying this to Taijiquan, understanding where the center of mass for the body starts, you can learn to detect where it is in movement. Once you know where it moved to, you can determine how to control or upset the balance to cause it to become unstable...or you can learn how to make yours more stable by knowing how it moves....

Center of mass does move as you extend body parts...it is possible to position your body in such a way that the center of mass is actually outside of the body....

[origenx]

Well, according to an ergonomic chart on the average man, the average ht is 69.1" and CG at 38.2". Which would put it at 55.3% of his ht.

On me, proportionally, my CG would thus be about 39" up, which is about 3" below my belly-button (navel) at about 42". Which is just about where the dantien is supposed to be. So, it does seem that your dantien does indeed coincide with your CG.

Try it!

[MaFuYee]

doesn't one's CG change with relation to ones body position, and weight distribution?

[Losttrak]

There are old manuscripts about old Western occult practices focusing on the meridians of the body (Dantien, etc). The Chinese discovered it too. Strange how two civilizations that were completely separated for a LONG time discovered such things without help from the other. There must be something to it.

[Josh _f]

Although as I wrote before the dantien is a conceptual point, when internal arts refer to moving from the center or moving with the dantien they are referring to the very real ability to move your arms through the articulation of your waist (seperate from your hips). This is one of the key abilities distinguishing internal from external arts. In fact one method that teachers use to illustrate the proper method of movemenr to their indoor students is to allow them to place one hand on the teachers dantien and the other on the teachers lower back, the teacher then performs a technique and the student can feel the waist powering the hands. Most people can not imagine the degree to which one can move ones arms entirely from ones waist. I imagine that high level people like Chen Xiao Wang, Li Tailiang can perform fine muscle movements like writing their names entirely from their dantien. For those wondering what this feels like, it feels like a ball rotating. Thus we say when the dantien moves to right it also left, and when the dantien moves up it also moves down. It should be noted that developing this type of muscle articulation in the waist takes time, and in many ways is a key to understanding the internal arts. Until you can move your arms from your waist (yes I can do this to a small degree) much of what it means to be internal will elude you.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[walkthecircle]

Take it for what it's worth...i'm a student myself.

BUT to me...all this attention on the Dan Tien is premature. For if you even ask such questions your practice has not advanced high enough to make heads or tails of what anyone says anyway.

I've found that if I just do as my teacher says and practice hard as hell NOT learning more until i master each basic step. I don't have the same questions as those that have skipped along too fast eatting a meal they can not digest.

I didn't have to ask where the power comes from because i put the time in to feel it.

For example, what if someone here said, "The secret to martial arts lies in the Jou Shar area." and you spent years tring to feel and focus on that area. BUT it never worked for you in fighting and health because your basics were not built solid enough to fully use the Jou Shar area. Everything JUST HAPPENS naturally in the time you need and are able to digest it in. Practice practice practice.

The masters are passing on a great art down to us. Perfectly developed though hundreds of years of development. If we follow their practice methods and eat only what we can digest we would have no questions.

All the best in your quest.

Just my opinion. = )

[Kaitain(UK)]

I have my own opinion, which I'm sure will change with time (as ha happened on so many aspects already) - I ask questions to get more informed opinions.

It's the same as my training - I may get a sudden breakthrough in a particular principle/posture/movement but whilst I'm fairly certain the new development is correct, I always ask my instructor to make sure no bad habits develop - the one time I didn't do this I developed a really bad habit.

Information can't hurt you....

So - I know where the Dan Tien is, and I always assumed it coincided with the CoG - but Josh talked about it in different terms originally so I was interested to see others' opinions.

As you said elsewhere - Sifu shows you the "1" and you are expected to teach yourself "2,3 and 4". Doesn't mean you don't search for guidance when the path seems unclear does it?

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[walkthecircle]

You know...

this site is pretty funny.

Just reading all the posts you see so much mis information.

I'm not against asking these questions but the answers that everyone is giving really arn't the answers that will help your progress. If this makes any sense to anyone.

Many of the people on here (INCLUDING myself are low level people...meaning less then 10 years of one system and practicing a min of 2-3 hours per day every day). So when you ask your question or I ask my question we get a low level answer back. Or it's a high level answer intelectualized from reading too many books.

One big example i can think of is this one:

What if i asked how does everyone else throw a plam strike in their respective style of Pa Kua. You would get various answers. Describing chi feeling and body motion...etc. BUT if someone has a unique chi feeling...it doesn't mean that because you do not feel that...you are wrong...it's just his/her experience. If they describe the body mechanics...and you do not feel that...it's not that you are doing wrong, it just their their style may use the energy/body mech. differently.

THEN if you have a good sifu he/she will tayor your program to your body. So when someone says I feel this or do it this way or think of this because of this...that's THEIR experience and specialized for their body and backgroud. IT"S THEIR PERSONAL program for them. So when you do the same it's not going to work or rather you sifu could tell you a better approach to get you where you need to be.

OR questions about fighting. How can one style give another style suggestions on how to fight? If you're learning a complete system you already have strategy and tactics and what to and when to do already built in. If i'm a Hisng Yi person i'm going to defend against an attack totally different than a chen stylist.

So all these Q&A are a vicious circle or a messed up feedback loop creating more confusion than good. YOUR sifu or YOUR senior instructor is the second best source. YOUR sweat and time is THE best source to find the answers.

Questions are great...but who are you asking and is it getting you closer to where you need to be? OR is this a clever distration to sap precious time, in a modern era, and preventing you from getting in your 2 hours of practice today?

Opps...time to practice myself.

[Kaitain(UK)]

not much time as kids have got training now...

wouldn't you agree that sometimes the vocalisation of a problem helps present a solution though?

I don't take what I read here as gospel - but sometimes it opens new avenues of thought for me. I rarely come away feeling like I wasted my time.

tbh half the reason I post here is to get reassurance that their are other CMA's who are always searching - where I train I'm the only one aside from my instructor who reads and ponders on all aspects of our art. It can be a bit disheartening... it's good to bounce ideas off of people

I disagree with your classification of 'high-level' being time related - and I also don't see a problem with theory being explained to me by people who haven't yet attained the appropriate level of skill.

I constantly try and 'flesh out' my knowledge

anyway, kids are hollering so got to go

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Mr. Nemo]

There's actually a separate word for "center of gravity" in chinese, I read it in Fu Zhongwen's book. I don't remember what it was, but there is a disctinction between dantien and center of gravity.

[Wongsifu]

As mafuyee said the center of gravity changes however the lower dantien point doesnt,
there is a few ways to look at it,
1 Its a pressure point on the du/ren meridian cant remember which is which only its within the body like an inch or so in.
2 When you start to feel it and it opens its more like th eindian definition of a chakra its larger like a peach and its definately dull of power.
3 when you cultivate all this the lower dantien refers to a point like a melon which sits in your "kua" the space between your hips and expands all the way inside you up to your solar plexus

take care...

Ive finally done it I can train longer by getting paid to do nothing , and my parents always called me lazy :)
get paid online http://www.spedia.net/cgi-bin/tz.cgi?run=show_svc&fl=8&vid=2475225

[origenx]

MaFuYee - Yes, the CG coincides with the DanTien assuming you're just standing in a normal upright position. But of course, your CG can then change if you bend your body into various other different positions.

Losttrack - what old Western documents or arts are you speaking of that talk about meridians?

[walkthecircle]

vocalizing problems...


From my experience I've never had greater understanding by talking about a kungfu problem. It's always been a breakthrough while practicing with myself or with a partner. And it ALWAYS happens after the million and one repetition and then giving up and then like magic I make a connection. LIKE AHHHHHHHHHHHH that's what sifu ment last month when he said work on this and you should eventually feel something like this.

(And by progress I mean deeper issueing of power or deeper use of martial principles. )


I'll throw this question out to you:

Have you made progress by talking about it?

And when I say "higher level" I mean a sifu who can tayor your training program to help yu reach the next level. Everyone can talk "Up there" but does it help you reach "up there?" Like all that talk about the Dan Tein...some internal arts don't even mess with discussion about the dan tein. I believe only a good sifu can point the way.

These posts have done one thing for me...I've been working out harder than ever. So much confusion out there I want to clear it up by learning all i can.

Enjoy the bitter! and good luck training...

[Kaitain(UK)]

maybe I'm just jawing whilst at work then

could we argue then that one of the goals of good posture is to have the centre of gravity at the lower dan tien? Just a theory - I just trained the form a few times in the garden and it definitely feels about right...

walkthecircle - it may just be the way our brains work - I'm a programmer and their are times I can stare at code on screen for an hour and fail to see the fault. Yet I can ask someone to have a look and as I'm explaining the problem the solution becomes evident. The same happens here - you have to appreciate if I'm asking a question here it is usually because I have been thinking about the topic for a while anyway.

I agree the only way to get breakthrough is repetition and effort - however I never search for anything so they tend to happen at strange time. Middle of the night seems to be a favourite - I wake up with an idea and then go and train it. Single whip was 'fixed' through this recently - I'd been 'wobbling' on the turn and blamed it on poor flexibility across the groin but 4 weeks of stretching had made no difference. I woke up one night and decided to try different foot positions and suddenly the uncoiling happened fluidly and effortlessly - I hadn't been turning my right foot far enough around prior to single whip and so my base was badly angled for the turn.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Turiyan]

There are three dan tiens....

Those must be some big fingers.

Turiyan gold, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

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[Kaitain(UK)]

we covered this already...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"