Wushu-nization of traditional arts.

[Mufahok]

Hi,

I am a member of a small discussion group comprising mainly of “Hua Chiao”, overseas Chinese. This group is bonded in their zeal for traditional Chinese Kung Fu.

One recent hot topic of discussion is this;

“Wushu-nization of traditional arts by mainland China”.

Many members think that it is hard these days to set apart mainland’s traditional arts from Wushu.

Do you see this?

Thanks.


:) :) :)

[BigPandaBear]

Honestly, I look forward to the Wushu-nization of all traditional Chinese arts. It needs to happen, because those classical CMAs are stagnated systems of combat anyway. Making them Wushu-nized will bring them some purpose in the modern world. Just like Judo and Aikido brought life to the dying/dead art of Jujitsu.

[gwa sow]

sorry i disagree, judo brought life to jiu jitsu because Jiu-Jitsu was looked down on and was disliked by many, almost like it was a dis-honrable art to practice. Although many people these days dont care for TCMA, it is not looked down apon in a similar manner. Judo brought in compitition and sparring, things that jiujitsu didn't offer at the time. judo made people see this art as a respectable art with a purpose. i think that wu-shu has its place but not with traditional martial arts. The problem is that there are not many capable teachers that can teach martial arts and not enough people that are willing enough to put in the time, effort, and practice it takes to become proficient in TCMA. It will not bring TCMA purpose, it will take it away.

[BigPandaBear]

sorry i disagree, judo brought life to jiu jitsu because Jiu-Jitsu was looked down on and was disliked by many, almost like it was a dis-honrable art to practice. Although many people these days dont care for TCMA, it is not looked down apon in a similar manner. Judo brought in compitition and sparring, things that jiujitsu didn't offer at the time. judo made people see this art as a respectable art with a purpose. i think that wu-shu has its place but not with traditional martial arts. The problem is that there are not many capable teachers that can teach martial arts and not enough people that are willing enough to put in the time, effort, and practice it takes to become proficient in TCMA. It will not bring TCMA purpose, it will take it away.

TCMAs purpose nowadays is no different from Wushu's purpose. Anyone doing TCMA for self defense will be just as well off doing Wushu in all honesty.

As for Juijitsu, it became a dead art because it stagnated. TCMAs are in the same boat because they refuse to compete against other styles to prove their effectiveness against modern arts.

[TenTigers]

I wil lbriefly address BPB's statement, only to clarify things so we can get on with a discussion. I will take for granted that you are simply not trolling, or starting that tired argument about CMA not training realistically-each school is different so don't judge CMA by a few (or alot) of what you have seen.
There are CMA schools that are hands on, stress conditioning,reaction drills, hard contact,ground fighting, and constant pressure testing, fighting with their Gung-Fu,with forms and demos taking less of a priority.
By the way, if you do your research, this is not a new delema, but siomething that has been going on for HUNDREDS of years.
Secondly, we are usingthe term "Wu-SHu" to mean the contemporary Martial Performance art created in PRC. Yeas, we all know that wu-shu actually means milatary/martial art, guo-shu means National Art, but China has decised that Wu-Shu is the official name of this art. They can change the meansings of words just as easily as they can change forms in MA/ Remember they have decided that Ch'uan is spelled quan,ch'i is spelled qi, shing is spelled xing, so why are we not surprised?
Wu-Shu is China's National Treasure, National SPort and National Pastime. Since all revolutions against the Chinese Govt were started by Martial Artists, they removed the combat applications, and to instill national pride, they remodled the forms to be aesthetically pleasing with acrobatics and posture taken from Opera and poses taken from the propaganda posters. (remove Mao Jacket, farm tools and red book, insert silks,staff and broadsword-presto-chango-Wu-Shu)
As far as the wushu-ization of TCMA is concerned, it is even worse than that-since the 79's people have "jazzed up" their forms for demos, competitions, to the point that they are laughable. Famous Sifus and Masters have schools that are a mere shadow of their former glory, as the inmates are now running the asylums, and they compromise their art for the sake of commercialization. Their forms start to change to keep up with the times-set forth by open Karate tournaments, television, whatever, and they are either to tired to resist, or they fear they will lose their students to the guy down the block.
But there are some of us, few, but some, who stick to our guns. we are "Dinosaurs" but these Dianosaurs also train their students so the art is NOT watered down, and gains strength each generation. We have open minds enough to do whatever it takes to improve our art and our students. Not by making it a chop-suey art, but by training attributes, skills,technique.

[WinterPalm]

Not all of the TCMA will become dance/wushu. There are those that would not see this and others that refuse to debase and degrade their arts into performance which is not the goal of TCMA. Just because something is modern does not mean that it is better. This is like saying that soon we will take the military and it will all be based on the Cirque de soleil...

[Ou Ji]

Huh??? You mean the military is not based on the Cirque de soleil???

I thought the military was all about peacekeeping, not fighting. And CMA is all about health, not fighting.

:D

[mantis108]

Here's how I define the terms:

Traditional Wushu :- it's any Chinese martial arts that has a functional corpus with a real and tangeable lineage. It has a practical approach to train any and all people to fight.

Modern Wushu & San Shou :- Sports that are created by the Communist government since 1950s with Traditional Wushu collaborators.

Kung Fu :- A distinct and unique Chinese martial arts developed out of ancient and traditional knowledge that has an unmistakable Chinese worldview (ie Yinyang, 5 phases, etc). It is a highly philosophical, spiritual as well as functional personal experssion in combative form.

So you see Kung Fu can be any Wushu but not all Wushu is Kung Fu. In truth, Kung Fu should rather be categorized as Wu Xue (martial academia) not just art. At the very core of Kung Fu, it is about education. Learning to be human and Learning to be a gentleman (or lady) who have combat courage (Yong). It's truely a union of the Gang and Rou and a marriage of civil and martial.

However, such a person, nay, a scholar/sage is intimidating to any totalitarian state. This is the reason CPC decided to implement the master plan -Fragmentation by Sportification of Martial Academia. You divide and you conquer them much easier one by one. Modern Wushu became forms only and it got the reputation that it can't fight (because it really can't due to the way that it is taught). Then they introduce San Shou the sport which is "practiced regularly by the military". Folks, we have you by the balls and don't you forget it. :eek:

Most Kung Fu people really can't be bothered. Only those who are interested in self promoting or groupies as they call it in North America would rather collaborate. It is so far successful in creating a rift between people who holds to the truth and people who found bliss in ignorance. When you have star power people such as Jet Li comparing Kung Fu masters to any and all grass root level tradesmen in restaurants, hair Saloons and even taxi drivers, you know the level of ignorance is astounding.

A people without understand its past does not have a future. Kung Fu and traditional Wushu can lead us to the understanding of traditional knowledge and in turn help us be all that we can be. The best of sportification can do is to put you in a piece of fake gold hanging at your neck and drag you into the abyss of self gratification.

Mantis108

PS no art is a dead art unless practiced by Zombies. So...

[BigPandaBear]

PS no art is a dead art unless practiced by Zombies. So...

Arts are dead when they cease to evolve and lose their original purpose. TCMAs are in such a position.

Of course there's nothing wrong with studying such arts. For example, I can study Alchemy as opposed to Chemistry, though the former is a dead science, and the latter is far more effective and logical.

[BigPandaBear]

I wil lbriefly address BPB's statement, only to clarify things so we can get on with a discussion. I will take for granted that you are simply not trolling, or starting that tired argument about CMA not training realistically-each school is different so don't judge CMA by a few (or alot) of what you have seen.
There are CMA schools that are hands on, stress conditioning,reaction drills, hard contact,ground fighting, and constant pressure testing, fighting with their Gung-Fu,with forms and demos taking less of a priority.
By the way, if you do your research, this is not a new delema, but siomething that has been going on for HUNDREDS of years.
Secondly, we are usingthe term "Wu-SHu" to mean the contemporary Martial Performance art created in PRC. Yeas, we all know that wu-shu actually means milatary/martial art, guo-shu means National Art, but China has decised that Wu-Shu is the official name of this art. They can change the meansings of words just as easily as they can change forms in MA/ Remember they have decided that Ch'uan is spelled quan,ch'i is spelled qi, shing is spelled xing, so why are we not surprised?
Wu-Shu is China's National Treasure, National SPort and National Pastime. Since all revolutions against the Chinese Govt were started by Martial Artists, they removed the combat applications, and to instill national pride, they remodled the forms to be aesthetically pleasing with acrobatics and posture taken from Opera and poses taken from the propaganda posters. (remove Mao Jacket, farm tools and red book, insert silks,staff and broadsword-presto-chango-Wu-Shu)
As far as the wushu-ization of TCMA is concerned, it is even worse than that-since the 79's people have "jazzed up" their forms for demos, competitions, to the point that they are laughable. Famous Sifus and Masters have schools that are a mere shadow of their former glory, as the inmates are now running the asylums, and they compromise their art for the sake of commercialization. Their forms start to change to keep up with the times-set forth by open Karate tournaments, television, whatever, and they are either to tired to resist, or they fear they will lose their students to the guy down the block.
But there are some of us, few, but some, who stick to our guns. we are "Dinosaurs" but these Dianosaurs also train their students so the art is NOT watered down, and gains strength each generation. We have open minds enough to do whatever it takes to improve our art and our students. Not by making it a chop-suey art, but by training attributes, skills,technique.


No, I'm not a troll. I'm simply pointing out that wushu is the eventual future of the CMAs. Traditionalists may not like to hear that, but its true.

[gwa sow]

please explain why TCMA are dead and stagnant. i don't see it:confused: :confused: :eek:

[Gru Bianca]

Please explain how you can objectively say that modern wushu is a chance of evolution for TCMA. What kind of evolution? In techniques? For real combat situation? For performances?

Just asking......

Regards,


Luca

PS: in my personal opinion (and underline my personal opinion) wushu was, is and will be not a chance of evolution,...but just a step backward, to what the Chinese achieved in thousands of years of evolution.

[chasincharpchui]

Honestly, I look forward to the Wushu-nization of all traditional Chinese arts. It needs to happen, because those classical CMAs are stagnated systems of combat anyway. Making them Wushu-nized will bring them some purpose in the modern world. Just like Judo and Aikido brought life to the dying/dead art of Jujitsu.

purpose of wat ? money? be a fake shaolin monk and dance around on stage and break wood? prance around like a circus to make money?

i will neva be caught dead in a turqouise/aqua/tangerine colored silk tong jong(chinese uniform)

go to the mardi gras if u wanna be accepted for wearing those hideous colors

[Mufahok]

Yes this is intended for serious discussion.

What we sought is your perception/perspective pertaining to something that has been going on for a while now.

A sensitive topic and to some, maybe, even taboo to talk about.

Need to establish some premises before proceeding;

• This group of friends, like I mentioned, are mainly overseas Chinese; now re-located throughout Asia. Some of them are “custodians” of their family arts. When the communists first presided over China, Kung Fu practitioners became one of the earliest victims of “re-education”. Many were killed and other fled or went underground. Some allowed themselves to be “re-educated” and were absorbed into the communist mainstream. Don’t expect to read accurate portrayal of this in standard history books; like the 4th Jun Tiananmen incident, you’ll get much sanitized account in most mainland publications.

• When I use the term “Wu-Shu”, I am talking about competition performance forms. Make no mistake here; even the people who teach and train in this are fully aware that the objective is PERFORMANCE. Very aesthetically appealing with movements/postures added that has absolutely nothing at all to do with FIGHTING. Their training might, in some parts, resembles traditional training but the uppermost concern is still to look good and score points according to set specifications. Funny thing is that, here in Asia, there was a time that this distinction was very clear. No pretending. If you do modern Wu-Shu, you know exactly why you’re there. There was a very comfortable co-existence, a lot of space in between.

So why bring out this topic here and now?

There is a “subtle” under current trend that has been going on for the last 10 – 15 years that we think should be highlighted and discussed.

I am not going to delve into effectiveness of TCMAs here. I think the onus is for the individual to decide given that we do different arts, train with different teachers and live in different environments.

Need also to state this before proceeding; we are not saying that all traditional arts are dead in PROC. But there are some that are indisputably stopped there and in fact, survive only outside PROC.

In many ways, we see PROC “re-inventing” many arts.

Don’t know about the West but here we see Wu-shu going a full cycle so to speak. Competition Wu-shu, centrally controlled by PROC, is in some ways, dwindling. In most parts of SE Asia, this genre is largely infused into regular schools’ sports program. Most participants here are schools students.

You don’t find that many independent setups teaching competition Wu-shu. They are either sponsored by the education or sports departments or ministries as it’s more commonly known in these parts.

Contrary to points raised by some, there is really some kind of “revival” in TCMAs.

Many folks are weary of the tons of new stuff coming out of PROC.

If I just take Tai Chi as a for instance, there was a time that PROC was dishing out something new every other month. These were sold throughout this region in the forms of DVDs, manuals, books and you name it. Followed by teachers and experts all ready to conduct courses under all sorts of arrangement.

Many of these took on a “franchise” modus operandi.

These state of things crept in many styles of TCMAs.

All these, just like Wu-shu, meant big time money.

You cannot believe the quantity of PROC “Traditional” kung fu DVDs that you are able to find in some big cities around here.

“Traditional Masters” with new found freedom springing up everywhere and now ready to share everything they know.

The one thing that is common and noticeable is that a lot of these “traditional” arts from PROC are very Wushu-like.

Many traditional forms are spiced up with flowers and gestures and done with rhythm suggesting entertainment.

There was a time in Hong Kong that Wu-shu was described as “All poses and no fight”. This is starting to ring true for many TCMAs practiced on the mainland.

I repeat; we are not saying that is happening to every style.

But in the few styles that we are familiar with, this is rampant.

The line between TCMAs and Wushu is blurring.

Thank you.

[BigPandaBear]

purpose of wat ? money? be a fake shaolin monk and dance around on stage and break wood? prance around like a circus to make money?

i will neva be caught dead in a turqouise/aqua/tangerine colored silk tong jong(chinese uniform)

go to the mardi gras if u wanna be accepted for wearing those hideous colors

In all honesty, there isn't much purpose for TCMA besides competition, exercise, self defense, or money making schemes. The problem is that Wushu can offer those same benefits, and in the case of exercise and competition, even moreso.

As for the uniforms, all of them aren't bad. Though some truly are...

[Water Dragon]

I love Wushu! I wish I could move like that. People around here love to talk smack, but the fact is that true Wushu guys are athletes who could probably run circles around the people who nay say it.

Is it fighting? No, but that doesn't make it worthless.

[BigPandaBear]

Please explain how you can objectively say that modern wushu is a chance of evolution for TCMA. What kind of evolution? In techniques? For real combat situation? For performances?

Just asking......

Regards,


Luca

PS: in my personal opinion (and underline my personal opinion) wushu was, is and will be not a chance of evolution,...but just a step backward, to what the Chinese achieved in thousands of years of evolution.

TCMAs were structured for fighting, PERIOD. Certainly many arts added breathing techniques, spiritual development, etc., but all of those were a means to an end. That end of course was to make the most well-rounded fighter possible. Various schools competed with other to prove their superiority over many generations. There were even full contact bouts between schools.

However all of that has ceased. TCMAs now are pretty much locked in form training, very little of which has to do with actual fighting applications. Take for example a discussion I had with a gentleman who said he could stop a takedown by "rooting" himself. Nevermind the fact that no one has ever been able to do that, and if they have, they need to come out of hiding and train me so I can make millions of dollars on the NHB circuit.

And that above is exactly why TCMAs are dead arts. If I had asked someone who is an actual fighter, I'd get a more logical answer. An answer born from actual fighting experience, and not mystical heresay. Unfortunately many TCMA instructors don't want to adapt their art into something more effective. They want to keep it as "original" or as "authentic" as possible as if the old masters knew more about fighting than what we know today.

Let me tell you something; Your old master didn't fight like Jackie Chan in Drunken Master or like Jet Li in Fist of Legend. No, they more than likely fought like this;

http://mplay.donga.com/dkbnews/2004/0401_ohvsjin.wmv

Of course I know that TCMAs have been around for the thousands of years. But then again so have swords. There's a reason why soldiers nowadays carry guns into actual conflicts, and there's a reason why swordarts like fencing and Kendo are competitive sports.

Sound familiar? It should.

[Water Dragon]

Take for example a discussion I had with a gentleman who said he could stop a takedown by "rooting" himself. Nevermind the fact that no one has ever been able to do that, and if they have, they need to come out of hiding and train me so I can make millions of dollars on the NHB circuit.

And that above is exactly why TCMAs are dead arts. If I had asked someone who is an actual fighter, I'd get a more logical answer. An answer born from actual fighting experience, and not mystical heresay. Unfortunately many TCMA instructors don't want to adapt their art into something more effective. They want to keep it as "original" or as "authentic" as possible as if the old masters knew more about fighting than what we know today.

.


LOL. The funny thing is, I know exactly what that guy is talking about, and I use that technique all the time. It works about as often as a sprawl does. Thing is, it's more a function of timing than it is root. Time it right, and it's the other guy rooting you into the ground. Time it wrong, and you better have a decent guard game.

[Yum Cha]

Mufuhok,

Does Wushu-nization mean de-martialisation or does it mean popularisation?

Remember, as a lead up to the Bejing Olympics, the PRC started boosting Wu-shu in anticipation of having it in the Olympics, thus there has been a short term peak.

I believe it has now been dropped, but the momentum remains.

Also, while there may be an increase in the number of Wu Shu players, it does not necessarily mean there is a corresponding decrease in the number of Traditional Players.

Good TCMA has always been rare, and I suspect it will remain so, but that doesnt mean its dead, just not popularised.

[Mufahok]

Yum Cha,

Wushu-nization to the point of de-martialization.

Don’t think it’s a question of popularization.

With some arts, mainlanders have literally forgotten how it was done.

Imo, with the little that they still remember, they add what they do best – Wushu movements.

Question; have you seen DVDs from mainland featuring classical forms with all sort of flowery movements?

And to the statement made earlier; Wushu guys can run circles around TCMAs – got to say I agree partially.

They can sure run.

Thanks.

[Gru Bianca]

Thanks you for your detailed reply. I understand now better what you meant with your previous post.
I will not comment on how I think the fighting would go in the old times as I was not around and mine would only be a speculation. Obviously, just to explain things clearly, I do not think that in the old times they were fighting like in the Kungfu movies, if that is what you thought I'm thinking.
Oh,.. by the way,.. the video you posted,... yeah ... we all know it sucks,....and we definitely were not well represented in that event.

Any way,... as much as I can agree with many of the points you have explained, I still feel to disagree that Wushu would reppresent the feature or evolution, simply because even if you look at TCMA only from the performance point of view, I still believe Wushu has nothing of martial and much of athleticism which in itself it deserves a lot of respect as much as gymnastic does.

Regards,

Luca

[Gru Bianca]

Hi Mufahok,

If I understood well you are in Asia. May I ask in which Country are you located?

Regards,

Luca

[Mufahok]

Hi Luca,

Originally from Malaysia but travelling all over now.

Most part of the year in Singapore and due to business, you'll also find me in Thailand, Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Thanks.

[TenTigers]

I hate to repeat myself but,
"There are CMA schools that are hands on, stress conditioning,reaction drills, hard contact,ground fighting, and constant pressure testing, fighting with their Gung-Fu,with forms and demos taking less of a priority"
I realize that there are many "TCMA" schools that do not train this way, but there are more and more people coming up that are doing this. This does not mean that they are dropping their art, but are adding more training methods, developing attributes and training realistically. Are they the exception to the rule?
Probably. Is Kyokushin (one of) the exception(s) to the rule in Japanese Karate? Probably. Is Japanese Karate dead? Nope.
Most of us who are TCMA-at least the ones that I know of, are of this mindset, so this is a tired argument that has been played out on Bullshido and other forums.
So, that being said, is this thread going to continue for several pages? I'm done.

[Laukarbo]

I hate to repeat myself but,
"There are CMA schools that are hands on, stress conditioning,reaction drills, hard contact,ground fighting, and constant pressure testing, fighting with their Gung-Fu,with forms and demos taking less of a priority"
I realize that there are many "TCMA" schools that do not train this way, but there are more and more people coming up that are doing this. This does not mean that they are dropping their art, but are adding more training methods, developing attributes and training realistically. Are they the exception to the rule?
Probably. Is Kyokushin (one of) the exception(s) to the rule in Japanese Karate? Probably. Is Japanese Karate dead? Nope.
Most of us who are TCMA-at least the ones that I know of, are of this mindset, so this is a tired argument that has been played out on Bullshido and other forums.
So, that being said, is this thread going to continue for several pages? I'm done.


:D
totally agree with that...I also have stopped bothering about those comments coming most partly from the mma section that tcma is outdated...:D Plus i dont feel like there is an urge to prove something...

[Eddie]

too many people out there (and here on this forum) think they can fight, but actually have very little experience. without practical experience, you pretty much in the same boat as the very same people you all mention who only plays forms. Thats exactly what my point was in a previous thread about nanquan too.

ring fighting and street fighting is different, but i bet you a guy with more ring experience than another (regardless of style) will probably kick the other guys a$$ in a street fight.

San Shou is pretty effective, and the people involved with the wushu federations keep on coming up with new and improved (scientifically) training methods. As things evolve, they seem to start merging modern methods with older concepts, which is good. It works. If that is what you consider wushu-nization , then maybe its not a bad thing at all. However, one can still keep your original style and fighting strategy in a ring sport like san shou. Having to fight with gloves only changes the variables, but the dynamics of the strikes are pretty much still the same. We can gwa sow chop even with 10 ounce gloves on. Whats so bad about that?

oh yes, and point sparring, light contact / semi contact, ‘traditional’ and all those other types of sparring we see at tournaments .... thats not real fighting. If you have never been knocked out or received a hard blow to the head, you probably wont know what hit you when you get hit in a street fight.

Regards to forms, contemporary forms training has some very cool training methods that can only help and improve your actual form and structure. I’d much rather have my son do contemporary wushu and san shou, than have him study karate or TKD. I have nothing against those styles, but I guess I have an affinity towards TCMA.

My younger brother was a national gymnast. At the same time, he also trained kung fu with us. He had a Russian gymnastic couch, and he was able to help us merge some of his gymnastic training methods with our kung fu training. Needless to say, my brother used to be a very very skilled fighter too.

One of our local guys from a neighboring school competes in all the disciplines in the competition. He does Nanquan and changquan (and the weapons), competes in Traditional Northern Shaolin forms, and still kicks a$$ in san shou too. Although hes from our ‘ rival’ school, I have tremendous amount of respect for that guy, mostly because he seem to be a good all round martial artist. Something more martial artists should strive for in my opinion. :cool:

[WinterPalm]

Wow, so much baloney to sift through.

Many arts are becoming wushuized or whatever the term is because they are either trying to become popular and cash in on the craze, or they are just simply not in tune with what their forebearers were doing and created and so have lost or just plain lack some crucial components of their arts which leads them to add impractical components.

Wushu will not help structure at all. Maybe flexibility and basic atheletic conditioning, but not kung fu skill, alignment, and power generation which goes beyond what the visible muscle-skeletal system creates.

I agree about the phony monks and their sideshows etc. I saw that Wheel of Life here a couple years ago and the only thing worth watching was the two kids holding their legs straight up for over five minutes and then falling flat on their groins!:eek: The 'monks' lacked correct alignment, breathing rhythm, and their supposed fighting sequences looked like that 'master' clip above. They tried too hard to rush thorugh without pausing to create the power necessary which lead to rushed and stale performances. In terms of wushu I have seen better performances from small national groups than these so-called monks. But on the drive for performance of form, many rush and do not carry the proper generation of power...sets and forms are meant to instill a way of movement and to train your body and to develop you...yes, you can demo these but all those things should be present. Most of the sets I do would lose to a wushu practioner in a competition because they are meant for development and not showmanship. That doesn't mean you can't make your sets faster and faster, but if you start getting sloppy or lacking in the integral mechanics, look out!

And why must people insist that evolution means something is getting better? All it means is an adaptation to the current environmenal stresses and demans placed on an organism at the current time. Many species, including our natural relatives, developed very specialized evolutionary traits but then were basically wiped out because they were too specialized or evolved in the wrong direction. Nature, culture, progress, and evolution are not guranteed pathes towards perfection or absolute betterment, and can often create disruptions and flaws in the overall health of the organism. This is not to say that change is not a good or a bad thing, but change does not necessarily mean better...

The question now posed: What is wushu adapting to?

[Eddie]

I have seen wushu athletes with much better structure and alignment than so called traditionalists. A lot of wushu athletes are more informed about their body mechanics than many of us. I say it again, there are way to many traditional kung fu players out there who are hugely over estimating their own skill. Unless you specifically practice fighting and fighting skill, your traditional kung fu is as useless as the contemporary form. Only difference though, the contemporary athlete probably spend more time on cardio and coordination than your average kung fu guy.

[B-Rad]

So far some of the best CMA people I've met were older folks with strong traditional background who've adapted the best modern training methods into their system. I don't like the direction the forms competition has been going the last decade, but a lot of the individual modern wushu training methods are superior to many traditional schools programs when trying to develop speed, agility, and power. Traditional has some great body conditioning methods, and partner drills ("iron body" type skills, grip training, etc.) And San Da and MMA are both excellent modern competition formats for testing some important fighting skills.

Unfortunately, there's so much martial arts bigotry in the CMA world, a lot of people are just blind to what other groups are doing.

[BigPandaBear]

Thanks you for your detailed reply. I understand now better what you meant with your previous post.
I will not comment on how I think the fighting would go in the old times as I was not around and mine would only be a speculation. Obviously, just to explain things clearly, I do not think that in the old times they were fighting like in the Kungfu movies, if that is what you thought I'm thinking.
Oh,.. by the way,.. the video you posted,... yeah ... we all know it sucks,....and we definitely were not well represented in that event.

Any way,... as much as I can agree with many of the points you have explained, I still feel to disagree that Wushu would reppresent the feature or evolution, simply because even if you look at TCMA only from the performance point of view, I still believe Wushu has nothing of martial and much of athleticism which in itself it deserves a lot of respect as much as gymnastic does.

Regards,

Luca

Hey, thanks for understanding where I'm coming from. I fully respect TCMAs, and why people practice them. Many of us here are simply going to have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that really. :)

[BigPandaBear]

too many people out there (and here on this forum) think they can fight, but actually have very little experience. without practical experience, you pretty much in the same boat as the very same people you all mention who only plays forms. Thats exactly what my point was in a previous thread about nanquan too.

ring fighting and street fighting is different, but i bet you a guy with more ring experience than another (regardless of style) will probably kick the other guys a$$ in a street fight.

San Shou is pretty effective, and the people involved with the wushu federations keep on coming up with new and improved (scientifically) training methods. As things evolve, they seem to start merging modern methods with older concepts, which is good. It works. If that is what you consider wushu-nization , then maybe its not a bad thing at all. However, one can still keep your original style and fighting strategy in a ring sport like san shou. Having to fight with gloves only changes the variables, but the dynamics of the strikes are pretty much still the same. We can gwa sow chop even with 10 ounce gloves on. Whats so bad about that?

oh yes, and point sparring, light contact / semi contact, ‘traditional’ and all those other types of sparring we see at tournaments .... thats not real fighting. If you have never been knocked out or received a hard blow to the head, you probably wont know what hit you when you get hit in a street fight.

Regards to forms, contemporary forms training has some very cool training methods that can only help and improve your actual form and structure. I’d much rather have my son do contemporary wushu and san shou, than have him study karate or TKD. I have nothing against those styles, but I guess I have an affinity towards TCMA.

My younger brother was a national gymnast. At the same time, he also trained kung fu with us. He had a Russian gymnastic couch, and he was able to help us merge some of his gymnastic training methods with our kung fu training. Needless to say, my brother used to be a very very skilled fighter too.

One of our local guys from a neighboring school competes in all the disciplines in the competition. He does Nanquan and changquan (and the weapons), competes in Traditional Northern Shaolin forms, and still kicks a$$ in san shou too. Although hes from our ‘ rival’ school, I have tremendous amount of respect for that guy, mostly because he seem to be a good all round martial artist. Something more martial artists should strive for in my opinion. :cool:

Great post. :D

[firepalm]

Interesting topic! I have observed this trend for sometime and here in Vancouver have watched a lot of schools succumb to this 'wushu-nization' or as one post stated jazzed up their forms.

On a personal level I like both TCMA and Modern Wushu and see value in both. However they are two different things, same roots but two different purposes & directions. If a young person likes sport Wushu and that's what they want to do and their instructor is selling it strictly as a performance sport, I see no foul. However a TCMA instructor should by the same token be up front, not only with his pupils but himself as to whether or not he is giving a true fighting art. Real TCMA as some else mentioned here contains not only forms, but reaction training, conditioning, bag work, various levels of sparring and application training. Unfortunately many TCMA have de-evolved or become very diluted, and even worse there are a lot of TCMA teachers out there that are simply not qualified. This is worse then 'wushu-nization'.

Geniune TCMA masters will know how to teach one to fight, among other things, but they are a becoming fewer and fewer but the 'wushu-nization' I believe is less to blame then the TCMA community itself. Here in Vancouver, as an example, there are many active instructors and clubs but honestly very few of the TCMA produce persons that can actually fight, they tend to be more like culturally driven clannish social clubs that are more concerned with how many bodies they bring out for a Chinatown parade then the quality of their people and their art.
:eek:

[mantis108]

In all honesty, there isn't much purpose for TCMA besides competition, exercise, self defense, or money making schemes. The problem is that Wushu can offer those same benefits, and in the case of exercise and competition, even moreso.

These are not altogether good enough reasons to take up TCMA. This is why the old timers declined to teach westerners. I am sure that Kung Fu people know what I am talking about. Now they got blamed for have those valuable stuff inbedded in the systems just because the younger generation are all into instant gratification. I honestly think old timers can't be blamed not wanting to teach openly in view of the present trends. Do you ever wonder why Bruce Lee never cut out spirituality and philosophy in his JKD even though he talked smack about TCMA? In fact, he applied philosophy that he read properly during his colleage course into forming his JKD. Bruce Lee was all for fighting yet he found value in the spirituality inherit in TCMA. Why? Just that alone you should do a lot more "soul search" even if you are not a TCMA guy.


TCMAs were structured for fighting, PERIOD. Certainly many arts added breathing techniques, spiritual development, etc., but all of those were a means to an end. That end of course was to make the most well-rounded fighter possible. Various schools competed with other to prove their superiority over many generations. There were even full contact bouts between schools.

I wondering what kind of TCMA you have actually come across? If you have extensive knownledge in TCMA, you would have no problem seeing that Wushu is but a lame imitation of traditional Wushu. It can't improve on the floor sweeping kick so make it go around 3 - 4 times just to make it visually pleasing. That's modern Wushu for you.


However all of that has ceased. TCMAs now are pretty much locked in form training, very little of which has to do with actual fighting applications. Take for example a discussion I had with a gentleman who said he could stop a takedown by "rooting" himself. Nevermind the fact that no one has ever been able to do that, and if they have, they need to come out of hiding and train me so I can make millions of dollars on the NHB circuit.

No, TCMA doesn't locked in form training. Mckwoons wannaba or McDojo franchaises (adding in Kung Fu forms) that wanted to bring in more income do that.

It is a myth that martial sports oriented people (yes Wushu is a sport through and through) make up in an attempt to "neuter" Kung Fu's "form performance". Look we are more "athletic" and we can dance. They want to mislead others that Kung Fu has no athleticism because they don't dance in circle, jump 10 feet high, and pansy around. So that mindless people would buy those lines and sign up for Wushu. Guess what? Kung Fu has athleticism that is developed through specific adaptation to imposed demand principle (SAID). Try some of the traditional Fanziquan and Tanglang Quan basic training and line drills if you want to understand the SAID principle found in TCMA. I have people who regularly trian in the gym that said Kung Fu basic training worn them out. You don't have to dance around in form to get conditioned as an athlete. That's B U L L S H I T. There are plenty of drills to train takedowns, throws and counters. I am in agreement with Water Dragon on the "rooting".


And that above is exactly why TCMAs are dead arts. If I had asked someone who is an actual fighter, I'd get a more logical answer. An answer born from actual fighting experience, and not mystical heresay. Unfortunately many TCMA instructors don't want to adapt their art into something more effective. They want to keep it as "original" or as "authentic" as possible as if the old masters knew more about fighting than what we know today.

If there is one fault that we can find in TCMA's fight training approach is that most of the TCMA styles have gotten too highly developed that they have neglected some elementary stuff such as how to handle clinch and tackle. It is true though that fighting experience is not give enough time to work on but it's more an issue of focus rather than fundamentally dysfunctional system wise.


Let me tell you something; Your old master didn't fight like Jackie Chan in Drunken Master or like Jet Li in Fist of Legend. No, they more than likely fought like this;

http://mplay.donga.com/dkbnews/2004/0401_ohvsjin.wmv

Of course I know that TCMAs have been around for the thousands of years. But then again so have swords. There's a reason why soldiers nowadays carry guns into actual conflicts, and there's a reason why swordarts like fencing and Kendo are competitive sports.

Sound familiar? It should.

Well, have I got news for you (Mr. Have I got news for you) since you put it that way. Fighting is fighting, period. It is a "broken arrow" situation. You do everything that you can do to come out on top (pun intended) within reason. If it is a venue for honorable duel, like in NHB/UFC events, you go with the format all out albiet it has miminal rules. If it's on the street dealing with non-sensable violence, you have one objective and one objective only. It isn't be the hero that apprehend the villian. It's you survive and come out all in one piece doing whatever you can either fight or flight but never freeze.

Mantis108

[Sow Choy]

Good Post...

I unfortunately see many traditional kung fu schools adding more wushu moves and flying kicks and performance oriented forms so they can attain more points at tournaments... Sad... At a demo or show I don't believe is so bad but in a traditional division is not good at all...

I respect wushu and the abilities one can attain from it, but the lines are not clearly drawn that a fighter must train to fight and the uniformed believe all martial arts practice make you a good fighter...

Honestly I do not enjoy judging anymore... So many traditionalists doing wushu forms or moves, and all these made up styles that are ridiculous to watch... All the while feeling sorry for the promoter who is trying to make everyone happy as well as promote both arts... What to do? Tell someone their art is BS, or that its not traditional...?

Looking at the Shaolin-Do threads we all know people will believe what they want nor can anyone really absolutely prove what happen in the past...

So I personally hope to see more traditional KF schools get into full-contact as well as MMA cage type fighting... Our school has and is... and its so much more fun than watching forms and people dancing around...

I personally joined for the fighting, then when I saw how manny forms there were I thought it was cool, but after all these years I realise that only forms can steer one WAY OFF course from the reality of fighting...

Peace...

Joe

[BigPandaBear]

These are not altogether good enough reasons to take up TCMA. This is why the old timers declined to teach westerners. I am sure that Kung Fu people know what I am talking about. Now they got blamed for have those valuable stuff inbedded in the systems just because the younger generation are all into instant gratification. I honestly think old timers can't be blamed not wanting to teach openly in view of the present trends. Do you ever wonder why Bruce Lee never cut out spirituality and philosophy in his JKD even though he talked smack about TCMA? In fact, he applied philosophy that he read properly during his colleage course into forming his JKD. Bruce Lee was all for fighting yet he found value in the spirituality inherit in TCMA. Why? Just that alone you should do a lot more "soul search" even if you are not a TCMA guy.

I don't see any level of spirtuality or philosophy in TCMA that isn't shared by various other MAs or even Martial Sports. Heck, boxers are some of the most spiritual people around.

As for Mr. Lee, yes he infused JKD with lots of philosophy, but he also infused it with a lot of western science and structure. If he felt something wasn't worth retaining, he threw it out no matter how "traditional" it was. if he ran across something he liked or found useful, he incorporated it.

Finally one cannot be blamed for wanting somewhat fast results, especially when many TCMA schools charge 70-100 dollars a month for instruction, hundreds of dollars for uniforms and belts/sashes, and more money for god knows what else. I know that if I'm spending hundreds of dollars so my daughter can defend herself, she better be able to do something more than dancing around in antiquated forms in a year's time.


I wondering what kind of TCMA you have actually come across? If you have extensive knownledge in TCMA, you would have no problem seeing that Wushu is but a lame imitation of traditional Wushu. It can't improve on the floor sweeping kick so make it go around 3 - 4 times just to make it visually pleasing. That's modern Wushu for you.

I've come across quite a bit of TCMA training. Most of it is based around forms, light sparring, etc. One particular school I sat in had the students seperated by rank doing different forms up and down the floor. After that, the students then broke into pairs and did free sparring for about 15-20 minutes. Alternating throughout. The class then ended with drills for about 15-20 minutes. The class then spent literally 10-15 minutes with their closing ceremonies and school news/announcements.

The Wushu club I sat in did pretty much the same thing, minus the pre-arranged self-defense. The main difference I noticed in the Wushu club is that the advanced members were on the other side of the gym doing very impressive looking acrobatics with/without weapons.

Now, if my goal is self-defense, certainly I'd choose the TCMA school over the Wushu school. But in all honesty, if my goal was self defense and I had another choice, I wouldn't pick either. Honestly the free-sparring in the TCMA school was a joke, even among the advanced students. Pretty forms, little practical value.

Which brings me back to the Wushu club. Its forms were even prettier, and they were very much into Chinese spirtitual concepts. Only thing missing was the free-sparring, but I seriously doubt the wushu clubbers would be far behind the TCMA bunch in fighting ability.

Now that's merely my experience. I'm sure there's some monk sitting on a mountain somewhere who can destroy mere mortals with a slap of his palm.



No, TCMA doesn't locked in form training. Mckwoons wannaba or McDojo franchaises (adding in Kung Fu forms) that wanted to bring in more income do that.

And the non-Mckwoons can't be trusted because they could be run by quacks or fakers. So the average person looking to study CMA is in quite a bind.


It is a myth that martial sports oriented people (yes Wushu is a sport through and through) make up in an attempt to "neuter" Kung Fu's "form performance". Look we are more "athletic" and we can dance. They want to mislead others that Kung Fu has no athleticism because they don't dance in circle, jump 10 feet high, and pansy around. So that mindless people would buy those lines and sign up for Wushu. Guess what? Kung Fu has athleticism that is developed through specific adaptation to imposed demand principle (SAID). Try some of the traditional Fanziquan and Tanglang Quan basic training and line drills if you want to understand the SAID principle found in TCMA. I have people who regularly trian in the gym that said Kung Fu basic training worn them out. You don't have to dance around in form to get conditioned as an athlete. That's B U L L S H I T. There are plenty of drills to train takedowns, throws and counters. I am in agreement with Water Dragon on the "rooting".

Is that why so many Kung Fu sifus are so horrifically out of shape, while Wushu stylists tend to be in tip-top shape?


If there is one fault that we can find in TCMA's fight training approach is that most of the TCMA styles have gotten too highly developed that they have neglected some elementary stuff such as how to handle clinch and tackle. It is true though that fighting experience is not give enough time to work on but it's more an issue of focus rather than fundamentally dysfunctional system wise.

The other flaw would be TCMAs refusal to incorporate non-TCMA techniques into their curriculums. Then again, if you tried to incorporate non-TCMA techniques, you'd no longer have TCMA. Which is why those arts are effectively dead.


Well, have I got news for you (Mr. Have I got news for you) since you put it that way. Fighting is fighting, period. It is a "broken arrow" situation. You do everything that you can do to come out on top (pun intended) within reason. If it is a venue for honorable duel, like in NHB/UFC events, you go with the format all out albiet it has miminal rules. If it's on the street dealing with non-sensable violence, you have one objective and one objective only. It isn't be the hero that apprehend the villian. It's you survive and come out all in one piece doing whatever you can either fight or flight but never freeze.

Mantis108

And the question is this; What is going to get you better prepared for such violence? Arts that are violent by nature (Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, Bjj, etc), or arts that are flowery and overburdened by tradition and forms(TCMAs, TJMAs, etc.)?

[IRON KONG]

I think that if you are training properly and you are realy studying your forms, you will see and understand the techniques that will prepare you for a violent stiuation. If you are not trianing your forms for fighting, than your just trying to look good with no true understanding of what you are learning, and if you are looking for a TMA to learn and all you see are schools that seem to only look flashy ask questions. IF you have a very good under standing of fighting, ask questinons about what they are doing. if they are a school that teaches fight skills than they should have no problem answering your questions.

[Yum Cha]

Yum Cha,

... With some arts, mainlanders have literally forgotten how it was done

Imo, with the little that they still remember, they add what they do best – Wushu movements.

Question; have you seen DVDs from mainland featuring classical forms with all sort of flowery movements?

----> Yes, I've heard that said, but than again, one would have to assume there are as many frauds and wannabes in China as in the rest of the world....

And to the statement made earlier; Wushu guys can run circles around TCMAs – got to say I agree partially.

They can sure run.

-----> LOL! Man, you're harsh mate....however accurate...hahah.




ksdflkasjdlfkjasdl;fkjasdl;k lksdjfl;asj

[fiercest tiger]

There comes a time that you need to test yournkung fu and competition is the safest way to see if what you learned has given you the tools. MMA is the probably the closest thing to reality although no weapons added yet!

Some people train kung fu all there life and have never fought anyone else outside there own system to test if it works against other stand up systems, ground fighters also.

Wushu performers are very dynamic and i would love to see if they could pull that stuff off in UFC, PRIDE king of the cagen etc and when they do they will earn respect as a fighting system.

You should train your kung fu as martial art (wushu) not peform like a wushu forms artist.

But i guess some people are naturaly fighters and never need kung fu or wushu so forms rule out any means of fighting nature its more a culture show of there country. As you see china has its flavour, japan has its flavour, indo, india etc.

[mantis108]

I don't see any level of spirtuality or philosophy in TCMA that isn't shared by various other MAs or even Martial Sports. Heck, boxers are some of the most spiritual people around.

Hang on, spirituality doesn't always means being religious (ie Church goes, etc). Lot's of boxers have religious believe especially in Christianity but that is not being spiritual by default. Now, I have great respect for Mohammud Ali, who is a devoted Muslim as well as one of the greatest boxer of all time in my mind. He's at a level that he's way beyond your so called high performance sport contingent who have little concern about the world other than that the gold metals and commerical sponsors that's going to pay their bills. Muay Thai is kind of unique that it retains much of the ritual rites (ie the ceremonial dance prior to the fights).

Let's face it, that has never been a martial arts that's ever develop out of Christianity or any of the Montheistic tradition. Knight Templar might be mighty but they didn't develop any martial arts or leave any trace of how they train. Being religious doesn't mean being spiritual in the case of martial arts.


As for Mr. Lee, yes he infused JKD with lots of philosophy, but he also infused it with a lot of western science and structure. If he felt something wasn't worth retaining, he threw it out no matter how "traditional" it was. if he ran across something he liked or found useful, he incorporated it.

Well, his subjective composition of JKD has always been a half full half empty issue for me. In fact, his base style Wing Chun is one of those highly developed styles that sometimes neglect the elementary stuff in my mind. Not saying that the style is dysfuntional just that his lineage might have been over specialized.


Finally one cannot be blamed for wanting somewhat fast results, especially when many TCMA schools charge 70-100 dollars a month for instruction, hundreds of dollars for uniforms and belts/sashes, and more money for god knows what else. I know that if I'm spending hundreds of dollars so my daughter can defend herself, she better be able to do something more than dancing around in antiquated forms in a year's time.

Business of martial arts is never easy. All I can say is Caveat Emptor.


I've come across quite a bit of TCMA training. Most of it is based around forms, light sparring, etc. One particular school I sat in had the students seperated by rank doing different forms up and down the floor. After that, the students then broke into pairs and did free sparring for about 15-20 minutes. Alternating throughout. The class then ended with drills for about 15-20 minutes. The class then spent literally 10-15 minutes with their closing ceremonies and school news/announcements.

From what you describe, this is a typical commercial school and one that has been around for awhile too. 45 mins to an hour class means the school can have 2 to three turn over for a night. It potentially can get them 60 to 100 students per month. Closing ceremonies? Wow, I don't know what it is if it's not commercialism at work. :eek:


The Wushu club I sat in did pretty much the same thing, minus the pre-arranged self-defense. The main difference I noticed in the Wushu club is that the advanced members were on the other side of the gym doing very impressive looking acrobatics with/without weapons.

So that's better than Kung Fu based on these observations? I fail to see how real traditional Kung Fu is going to be "improved" by Wushu. How is Wushu going to replace Kung Fu when it's clearly lacking in several crucial areas of martial arts training?


Now, if my goal is self-defense, certainly I'd choose the TCMA school over the Wushu school. But in all honesty, if my goal was self defense and I had another choice, I wouldn't pick either. Honestly the free-sparring in the TCMA school was a joke, even among the advanced students. Pretty forms, little practical value.

Haven't seen their sparring so I can't comment on that.


Which brings me back to the Wushu club. Its forms were even prettier, and they were very much into Chinese spirtitual concepts. Only thing missing was the free-sparring, but I seriously doubt the wushu clubbers would be far behind the TCMA bunch in fighting ability.

If that's the impression and conclusion that you have drawn based on the observation and experience that you have, well you are entitled to that opinion. But you have not been able to make the case for Wushu being the (God forbid) "future" of CMA.


Now that's merely my experience. I'm sure there's some monk sitting on a mountain somewhere who can destroy mere mortals with a slap of his palm.

I don't think that's a relevant comment to the debate.


And the non-Mckwoons can't be trusted because they could be run by quacks or fakers. So the average person looking to study CMA is in quite a bind.

That's a possibility. All I can say is education is the key.


Is that why so many Kung Fu sifus are so horrifically out of shape, while Wushu stylists tend to be in tip-top shape?

Well, a bull is a 100 times fitter and stronger then a man, by your logic the oxen should be in charge of human not the other way arround. Many of the trainers and coaches aren't great athletes but they have world class athletes under them. That, my friend, would render your point moot.


The other flaw would be TCMAs refusal to incorporate non-TCMA techniques into their curriculums. Then again, if you tried to incorporate non-TCMA techniques, you'd no longer have TCMA. Which is why those arts are effectively dead.

You do have a good point here. TCMA people do hold onto their paradigm with a tight fist. But is it effectively dead? I think it's in the eyes of the beholder.


And the question is this; What is going to get you better prepared for such violence? Arts that are violent by nature (Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, Bjj, etc), or arts that are flowery and overburdened by tradition and forms(TCMAs, TJMAs, etc.)?

The truth of the matter is no art on this face of earth can guarantee you anything. There was a Muay Thai Champ in the states (Alex Gung?) who got kill chasing after some guys that hit and run his car. Could Alex have beaten the crap out of those guys? Highly likely but the guys pull a gun on him. So no amount of training prepares you for things of that nature. It might not be appropiate to critique what he's done. However, I strongly believe that had he had followed the eastern philosophy of letting it go since Karma has it own way of taking care of things, he would still been living and perhaps contributing to the society in a great way. There are many more of these cases around the world. Having confidence and abusing confidence is just a fine line that once crossed could mean a matter of life and death. So before you cross that line, think thrice.

Live well and be prepare.

Mantis108

[Gru Bianca]

Hey,... I'm based in Singapore too. Send me a PM,... may be if you have time we can hook up and discuss a bit....

Regards,

Luca

[IRON KONG]

A good way to test your skills, is agaist other systems, not picking a fight with them ,but by asking questions or sparing. also if you are trianing a TMA ,it should be a complete system,and be able to deal with a boxer , mma fighter or random street figther. Sometimes a little help from another system will help you understand your system even more.