Tai Chi dynamic push hands

[Ronin22]

Hey there

I was wondering if the advanced students could give me some insight. I observed a Tai Chi class last week (yang style) and the Sifu was doing some push hands or "dynamic push hands" He was lined up in front of the student with the student basically pushing against the Sifu and with a twitch the student went reelling back 15 feet stutter stepping all the way. I must admit it looked pretty fake so I asked one of the students about it and he said that to him it looked fake as well and he was skeptical but you have to go through it to understand it. He said it felt like pushing on a brick wall then having thrust down on you. Maybe I could say it was fake if only one student was doing it but there were about 6 or 7 that were pushed and I know not all of them had to be crazy. I asked sifu about it after the class and I told him I was having a hard time understanding and he said that since I have only a certain knowlege bank of western views that I wouldn't be able to understand, which I could agree on. I asked if he would demonstrate on me but he wouldn't saying he doesn't do that anymore only 10 years ago when he was trying to get students. Needless to say I was a little bummed.

So I guess my question is can anyone shed more light on this and maybe some experiences that they had with someone of great skill. maybe stories of people who were skeptical like myself but went through aa actual demonstration and was convinced otherwise?

I would also like to ask if anyone knows of sifu's in the NYC, southern connecticut area with the ability to produce this sort of power?

Has anyone had any training with Sifu H Won Gim or a Master Ahn in NYC?


Also check out this web site and let me know what you think
http://pathgate.org/


I know there are a lot of questions and I really appreciate any help

Thanks

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Many teachers teach a certain odd stepping pattern that they indicate will disperse the excess Qi that was used to move them.. as someone employees that pattern after being pushed it looks pretty weird.. my personal experience indicates that the odd stepping pattern is a tool to engage the student to focus their attention on dispersing excess energies, not necessary.. but, it can be effective as a reminder to focus and disperse.. i do not use that particular method to disperse excess energies, rather i favor frequency modualtion, bringing the frequency of the excess energies into coherence with my own, then incorporating as much as i can and grounding the remainder.. basically, directing the push into the ground, using my physical being as a conduit to let the energies flow through me..

NYC.. look up WCC Chen..

Be well..

[Ronin22]

Thanks for the reply TCB. I think my problem is that I'm a skeptic and I need tangable proof of what I'm seeing. I do want to believe it because a lot of it sounds and looks great but I'm having a hard time finding someone to prove it to me physically. Of course the only way is really to just go to a class and train with a great sifu. It makes me wonder about some sifu's claims that 12 people couldn't budge him but those 12 are students of his so maybe they don't want to embarass him?

example:http://www.ahntaichi.com/donahn.html


Let me ask you, has there been a time when you were skeptical about things you've seen that were perhaps a little out of the ordinary but have been proven to you? Could you give me some examples or examples from people you know?


Best

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Indeed i have seen things that defy reason.. some wouldn't demonstrate on me personally, they said "only my students know how to handle such power".. (skepticism intact)..

WCC Chen: At 71 yrs. of age set me on my butt with a "1 inch punch".. and i mean he dropped me, my teeth slammed together and i was down.. His ability to control a push-hands exchange is beyond belief..

Cai Song Feng: elderly gent asked us to take our strongest, most stable stances, and one by one went around the room and pushed us over with almost effortless grace, it felt like we were doing the pushing when we were only trying to stay balanced..

Ms. Cui Lu Yi: healed a ripped groin muscle in one 45 minute QiGiong session.. the event doctor advised 6 months of recovery with surgery likely.. the inside of my thigh was deeply bruised from groin to knee.. the day after Ms. Cui's treatment i was hiking with her and others in the Olympic Mountains..

GM Chan Pui: Daily expressions of things beyond description.. i trained with him for 12 years, he never ceased to amaze me..

Master Wong: cryptic local personality, Wu stylist.. "can't touch that", uncanny energy skills.. it's like pushing a mist, until it pushes back.. then, just look for a place to land..

There's more, but.. i've experienced enough to know there's much more to this game than brute strength or refined mechanics.. there a verifiable body of evidence that energies can be enhanced and manipulated to produce remarkable results.. and, as a species, we are just beginning to understand the potential..

Be well...

[qiphlow]

i agree with bob--
you have to feel it for yourself:)

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Ronin,

What you have witnessed is called "Wai Jing" or "Feeding the Energy"; What it means is that to achieve such spectacular bounces, the students have to "feed" the Sifu properly. Every bit you see is real, the Sifu would need to have very good skills to manipulate the energy, but at the same time the student must be skilled enough to feed properly. The Sifu would not be able to bounce you in such spectacular fashion if you are not trained in feeding, hence the reluctance in doing it on you.

At a beginning level, it is important to feed each other during practice, so you can feel what you are doing and see whether it would work; but in real life, no one would feed you during a real fight so one must move forward to learn to do the "Ting Wen Na Fang". I have seen a teacher whom the students feeding him so much that when he went to do a demo on strangers in front of a large crowd, he couldn't throw them at all and he was booed off stage!

With my students, when I get them to practice a certain technique, I would always start of feeding them, then when they get the hang of it I would feed them less and less until they can execute the technique without feeding at all.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

That post of yours answered all my questions i was going to ask you when we hook up. I dont know how would your bouncing people go if someone wasnt given you any tension would you move in closer and past there centerline?

Garry

[imperialtaichi]

I dont know how would your bouncing people go if someone wasnt given you any tension would you move in closer and past there centerline?



Hello Gary,

1. If someone is not giving you tension, usually it means he/she is not trying to harm you anyway so may be just walk away.
2. If someone is not giving you tension but you want to neutralize the threat anyway, I would probably go for the An or Cold Jing kind of techniques.
3. If you still want to bounce them, you and still do it if you do the "Wen" or "asking" properly. This is done by "tapping" them to cause them to momentarily "freeze up" or expose their centre. If you then do the "Na" or "lock" properly you can still bounce them.

In any case, the upward/outward bounce is usually more useful in competitions and practice. In real life, unless you bounce them into a brick wall or something it is pretty much pointless. I still like Ray Pina's quote the most (Ray, it is from you, right?) "the ground is you friend, it is always there for you."

Cheers,
John

p.s. oh, I could move pass the centre line and "displace" them... but then anyone can do it and not that much skills required. So it is not a bad idea.

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the answer, in real time fighting how do you see it working. Do you think it could be pulled off?

have a great weekend!

[mantis108]

Check this out:

Zhao Bao He Shi Tui Shou (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex7QFLss&search=taiji)

Rule #1

Don't wear a white out fit when doing Tui Shou with a master. :D

Oh, of course learning better break falling technique would help ease the pain too. ;)

Mantis108

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks for the answer, in real time fighting how do you see it working. Do you think it could be pulled off?



In real time fighting, it is not difficult to pull off especially if the opponent is committed; hence the saying "lure the opponent in, let him hit the void, close then immediately open (Yin Jin Luo Kong He Ji Chu)".

In my opinion, bouncing off an opponent is only part of the many things you can do to the opponent. The single most important thing to do is to do the "Tou" or "penetration" of your Yi Qi properly. It is like "electricuting" the opponent all the way to their power source, rendering them ineffective in carrying out their techniques. Then you can manipulate them whatever way you want.

Some of the demos of Masters/Senseis just standing there while the student/opponent trying every technique without success is very often because of the Tou. What comes to my head is a footage of O'Sensei Ueshiba being pushed by a big fellow, he just stood there as if nothing was there, then just flicked and the big guy ended up on the ground.

Cheers,
John

[qiphlow]

now THAT is good push hands. so smooth, so flowing. beautiful.

[imperialtaichi]

now THAT is good push hands. so smooth, so flowing. beautiful.



Very nice. Very painful for the guy in white. :)

Cheers,
John

[dleungnyc]

IMHO, from my limited experience. Internal martial arts like Tai Chi, Xing yi and Bagua has to be 'experience' to understand and believe.

Just looking at demonstration alone, you will almost always leaves wondering, 'can that be real?'. But once you are on the receiving end in a non-coroperating situation, you will believe.

Note: this only applies if you are going up against 'real/qualify' teacher.

[Ronin22]

Hello Ronin,

What you have witnessed is called "Wai Jing" or "Feeding the Energy"; What it means is that to achieve such spectacular bounces, the students have to "feed" the Sifu properly. Every bit you see is real, the Sifu would need to have very good skills to manipulate the energy, but at the same time the student must be skilled enough to feed properly. The Sifu would not be able to bounce you in such spectacular fashion if you are not trained in feeding, hence the reluctance in doing it on you.

At a beginning level, it is important to feed each other during practice, so you can feel what you are doing and see whether it would work; but in real life, no one would feed you during a real fight so one must move forward to learn to do the "Ting Wen Na Fang". I have seen a teacher whom the students feeding him so much that when he went to do a demo on strangers in front of a large crowd, he couldn't throw them at all and he was booed off stage!

With my students, when I get them to practice a certain technique, I would always start of feeding them, then when they get the hang of it I would feed them less and less until they can execute the technique without feeding at all.

Cheers,
John





TCB:

Thanks for sharing your experiences I always love reading about stuff like that you are quite the sage.


Dr Fung:

Thanks for the great explination of what I saw but now I have more questions. I guess you call what I saw "bouncing" and from what I gather it has no martial application except for demonstrations. Then you mentioned "Ting Wen Na Fang" is this basically what I saw but with a more martial application? The reason I ask is because I have seen video's (check pathgate.org) where the attacker wasn't feeding the Master yet he still was being throw off a lot.


Thanks to the rest of you for your inputs I've learned a lot



i think Ten Tigers commented on how he goes to some of the downtown parks in NYC and watches the old timers push. Have any of you guys done this? Which parks could I go to check this out?


Thanks

[qiphlow]

from what i understand, it's a question of timing. also, as dr fung said, the partner has to "feed" you something. in our classes we have an exercise where you take a few steps up to your partner with the intention of pushing them over. the partner's job is to try and bounce you out. kind of hard to do correctly, but when it's right, the bouncer feels like he didn't do anything, yet the bouncee goes flying. really fun.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

All I can say is, "Ouch, Mommy!!!" :eek:

[imperialtaichi]

I guess you call what I saw "bouncing" and from what I gather it has no martial application except for demonstrations.



I wouldn't say that.... it is kind of like a Karate person demonstrating breaking bricks; it is pretty useless if you can just break bricks because bricks don't hit back, but then if you take the power into fighting applications then it is useful. The Bouncing is the same.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

very cool clip, Dr John im going to have to meet up and feel this for myself, be gentle darling! ;)

Seriously looks great but im still not convinced this stuff can be used when its striking time maybe at wrestling might be a better range?

Garry

[dleungnyc]

very cool clip, Dr John im going to have to meet up and feel this for myself, be gentle darling! ;)

Seriously looks great but im still not convinced this stuff can be used when its striking time maybe at wrestling might be a better range?

Garry

Not just at wrestling range, think what happens when you block a strike or someone block your strike. If your timing is good, you can apply this principle at that moment of contact and cause your opponent to either lose some balance, open up his defense a bit more or flat out fall down. Again, timing is the key.

[fiercest tiger]

Yeah maybe in theory wise, but im talking all out fast punching not an amature drunken SOB. Blocking an arm isnt very hard but bouncing people off like you see in the clips against full on street attack or maybe these guys should enter UFC and Pride and bounce them around the cage?

So far Dr John has said the best answer ive been waiting for and the student has to feed the teacher the energy and correct structure. Thats why i want to visit Dr John so he can show me i just dont believe that people can pull this off whilst being punches and kicked by someone that can throw fast, powerful and lots of combos. There are guys that dont do much grounding and are very mobile on the feet so soon as you want to bounce them they are shifting and level changing.

just my thoughts!

Garry

[imperialtaichi]

Thats why i want to visit Dr John so he can show me i just dont believe that people can pull this off whilst being punches and kicked by someone that can throw fast, powerful and lots of combos. There are guys that dont do much grounding and are very mobile on the feet so soon as you want to bounce them they are shifting and level changing.



Hello Garry,

Yes, just like all martial arts, the success in executing a technique depends on the difference in level of skills between the two (or more) fighting. Lets say the if Tai Chi guy is way better than the opponent, chances are the Tai Chi guy'd be able to toy with and bounce the opponent around. But if the level is similar or the opponent better then this becomes difficult. Same as, a strong opponent may knock out a low level Tai Chi guy in one punch, but if the Tai Chi guy has adequate skills he may be harder to get knocked out.

People often forgets that there are some very handy moves in the Tai Chi form very usefull for fighting; so before we get to YLC's level and do everything purely internal thinking that we can bounce anyone around, we better learn our moves well! For example if someone comes in with combo punches the 7-Star Fist is perfect as a counter IF you know how to use it properly. And learn to take punches because anyone who had been in a real brawl would know there's almost no way you can walk out unscratched.

If anyone's been on the receiving end of Garry (and manages to stay alive to tell the tale :p), he/she will soon learn that theory and push hand competitions though important and useful, one should not get tunnel visioned and live in dreamland.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

By the way i didnt get to see the article in the newspaper, thanks for the message all the same.

I am all for understanding this force of bouncing people be it push hands or straight up combat. But mostly the demo's of bouncing is usually and mostly from push hand and using there students. I am hoping that it can be pulled off like in push hand demos as we just saw in a reality street fight. My hardest problem coming from an full contact kickbioxing and kung fu training is that non of the internal people ever fought not they needed too but to give them more credit non did.

Then seeing all this bouncing it kind of bugs me, although like i said dr Johns info made me think why and how it can happen with timming. But fighting isnt always pushing and to pull off sticking and following then bouncing would be a huge feat in itself.

Now, i myself also do internal kung fu but not Taiji, we have sensitivty as well push hands but fighting wise i cannot see it working unless i get into a wrestle or clinch type game. Strikes i will be countering back with strikes and takedowns, etc.

I do not know if i made sense and please dont take my words out of context cause i am just asking questions cause i sont see it working for real when it gets to the itty gritty, unless the oponent is useless.

Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The toughest part of Taiji applied to combat is becoming comfortable with the Taiji as your preferred system.. most of us have multiple arts in our history and if we have a history of success with an external art it is difficult to abandon that success in favor of the apparent softness of Taiji.. I know that i struggle with this issue continually.. even when my Taiji sets up a perfect condition for a damaging release of Jing.. the old familiar option for a grinding hook or a shin to the jaw seems to just leap out there..

So, we train from slow and controlled to increasingly fast and robust use of strictly Taiji applications.. what we have found is that this permits us to validate the effectiveness through increasingly intense situations.. sometimes, people over-apply.. that too much of a bounce simply puts the opponent in a different but stable position.. a controlled bounce will put the opponent in a neutral state, like when we walk on a curb and begin to lose our balance, there is that interval where we are caught between falling and not falling, frozen or struggling to maintain balance.. this is the "open door", when serious damage may be directed into areas where the normal level of protection is busy trying to recover from the neutral state.. neutral implies lack of offense or defense..

Bounces such as this are available at almost every point of contact, but.. one of the most misunderstood aspects of Taiji, its footwork, will usually defeat its own application.. use of the "shuffle", like in fencing, is a remarkable tool for effecting the bounce and keeping the range necessary to take advantage of the neutral state.. assimilating Aikido's footwork into Taiji principles of rooting and Song would make for a great next evolutionary advance of Taiji's development.. but, that's another topic.. hmmm.. TaiKiDo..

Anyway, even a swarm of punches can be up-rooted and neutralized by absorbing into a Peng state, like punching a trampoline.. the opponent feels the building resistance as the intercept deflects the power-line.. then, like the bounce of the trampoline, the intercept returns with the retracting punch to apply froce near the opponent's center.. shuffling to the outside of punch, Peng expands into the opponent's space and another shuffle sets the advantage and application.. The first shuffle moves the target from the follow-up swarm and establishes leverage, the second shuffle applies force to the leverage and stabilizes the application..

Note: keep the weight in the arch and ball of the feet, not the heels.. the heels are round and do not provide stability.. the heel should be firmly grounded but not weight bearing, the heel braces the arch and ball.. this will also act to unify the mechanics and afford more relaxed responses..

Anyway, just some thoughts.. Be well...

[omarthefish]

...And learn to take punches because anyone who had been in a real brawl would know there's almost no way you can walk out unscratched.
...

There is another school of thought on this that says that when you "learn to take punches" you are, in fact, teaching yourself to....take punches. You engrain the habit and that's not what you want to do. You want to engrain the opposite. The other person punches may touch you but you might want to reconsider learning how to "take them".

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As far as "taking punches" goes.. when i was fighting competitively (a looong time ago), my Sensei would put a towel over our heads and we would take fighting stance.. then, we would wait.. he would put a fair punch to the head, pull off the towel and we would have to defend ourselves from another fighter.. we couldn't fight until we were good at recovery.. i respect this aspect of my training greatly, it helps keep the adrenaline dump in check..

WCC Chen takes a serious punch like nothing happened.. he relies on the Connective Tissue Ststem to disperse the energy throughout the body.. this discipline will save your butt and it will empower you to maintain your position and stability.. people too concerned with avoiding the punch will not be effective, they will keep the range in the opponent's favor.. the close range will elude them..

The fight is Yin and Yang, give and take.. if you can't take your game will be unbalanced..

Be well..

[fiercest tiger]

Thanks for the feed back guys!

I hope to see this type of energy used in a cage fight from a Taiji fighter and using just Taiji to win. I do understand leverage but i do know that if someone is a skilled counter puncher and fast footwork can easily cancel you out.

Bob,

Can you tell us more about taking punches to the connective tissue system, how it works and is it a type of soft body as we do soft body training taking punches not like a traditional iron body type shaolin conditioning?

Regards
Garry

[Kaitain(UK)]

I train with John Ding, so I'm part of the same YSC lineage (through Ip Tai Tak rather than CGS or CKH though). Hopefully I can shed some light on this. I don't believe YSC ever called it Dynamic Pushing Hands, it was just a label that was applied in recent years to differentiate it from the softer training.

Dynamic pushing hands is not about bouncing people out - it's about developing structure and peng jin. You give your partner as much pressure as his structure can bear, then at the point of failure your partner sits back into the rear leg and then pushes you out. The better you get, the more relaxed you are - you let the opponent load your structure for you and then throw them out when it suits.

At higher levels the partner runs straight at you and applies pressure very quickly and hard - this is only useful once the springiness has been developed in the first place. Then you start playing around with redirecting the incoming force rather than just receiving it - it's good fun but can be hard on the body. The moment of contact is very good training for learning to instantly disrupt someone's root.

The person applying the pressure is also developing peng jin - there is an attritional version of this where you just press against each other. It's a great way to convince people that muscle isnt everything - it is not possible to hold the pressure without a sound structure.

So in summary - Dynamic Pushing Hands = training Sung under pressure in order to develop peng jin. Just dont go for more pressure than you can manage or you'll get injured.

The shuffling backwards and everything is, imho, usually fake. You can tell the difference between someone who has been thrown backwards, and someone who is throwing themselves backward. I've been thrown 15 feet before by John, but I wasn't shuffling, I was trying to stop myself falling backwards so my arms were windmilling and I was trying to get my feet under myself.

I sometimes train this with my teacher where he throws me against a wall - we started off with a crash mat, but now I just get the wall. It's good training.

Hope that helps

Paul

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Hi Garry: The Connective Tissue (CT) system is a membrane-like structure that surrounds every cell in the human body including bone cells.. it is much like colagen, the tendon and ligament structure.. the CT is very similar to liquid crystals in structure and ability to change and adapt in real-time.. it is quicker and stronger than the neuro-muscular system.. it communicates continuously through every cell and organ by changes in vibrational frequencies.. it is a good "key-word" search on google, read many of the hits and you will begin to understand its importance.. additionally, it effects structure and speed through a physics principle of "Tensegrity", another good Google search.. Tensegrity is the principle that flexible pole tents use to maintain shape and strength, like a geodesic dome..

When someone learns to activate the CT system, and it's pretty easy.. you can actually relax into it and be more stable, stronger and bypass the neuro-muscular time differential, responding like the tent does, receiving pressure at one point and distributing it throughout the system which actually strengthens the system.. If you do the work and research the key-words, you will see that there is an amazing structure within the mundane body that explains much of the "soft-power" the ancestors spoke so highly of.. They didn't have the science to explain it, but they knew through trial and error that something quite amazing happened when they adjusted their structure to activate what we now know as the CT..

The force of a punch, anywhere, can be distributed throughout the body and neutralized into the ground when the CT is active.. it is like trying to punch a balloon.. When the CT is active the body is a single dynamic "Tensegrity" system, utilizing the applied energy to strengthen the over-all system.. this is directly applied to "bouncing", except we by-pass the sensory/muscular delay and trust the CT to do its thing in real-time.. "Peng" is a misunderstood reference to activating the CT system.. muscles are a secondary support system to the CT, necessary for mechanical structure.. muscles fill-in behind the CT's real-time establishment of shape, direction and force..

Rick Barrett has written a brilliant book on this subject as it applies to Taiji, it is: "Through the Western Gate".. Rick uses Western science to illustrate the wisdoms of the Taiji ancestors.. the book is readable, practical, and verifiable in practice and research documentation.. The CT is the link to the mystic aspects of Taiji legends, but now it is understood from a Western practicallity.. A companion book, "The Field", by Lynn McTaggert, supplies even more hard science that illustrates the potential for "apparent" Mysticism in the mundane.. The title of Rick's book is a reference to the door/gate/barrier that western culture has guarded against anything not quantiafiable by measure and method.. There is a system, CT, that can demonstrate most of the matters usually considered as fanciful myth.. we have simply forgotten how to access remarkable tool..

Be well..

[Ronin22]

Greetings...

Hi Garry: The Connective Tissue (CT) system is a membrane-like structure that surrounds every cell in the human body including bone cells.. it is much like colagen, the tendon and ligament structure.. the CT is very similar to liquid crystals in structure and ability to change and adapt in real-time.. it is quicker and stronger than the neuro-muscular system.. it communicates continuously through every cell and organ by changes in vibrational frequencies.. it is a good "key-word" search on google, read many of the hits and you will begin to understand its importance.. additionally, it effects structure and speed through a physics principle of "Tensegrity", another good Google search.. Tensegrity is the principle that flexible pole tents use to maintain shape and strength, like a geodesic dome..

When someone learns to activate the CT system, and it's pretty easy.. you can actually relax into it and be more stable, stronger and bypass the neuro-muscular time differential, responding like the tent does, receiving pressure at one point and distributing it throughout the system which actually strengthens the system.. If you do the work and research the key-words, you will see that there is an amazing structure within the mundane body that explains much of the "soft-power" the ancestors spoke so highly of.. They didn't have the science to explain it, but they knew through trial and error that something quite amazing happened when they adjusted their structure to activate what we now know as the CT..

The force of a punch, anywhere, can be distributed throughout the body and neutralized into the ground when the CT is active.. it is like trying to punch a balloon.. When the CT is active the body is a single dynamic "Tensegrity" system, utilizing the applied energy to strengthen the over-all system.. this is directly applied to "bouncing", except we by-pass the sensory/muscular delay and trust the CT to do its thing in real-time.. "Peng" is a misunderstood reference to activating the CT system.. muscles are a secondary support system to the CT, necessary for mechanical structure.. muscles fill-in behind the CT's real-time establishment of shape, direction and force..

Rick Barrett has written a brilliant book on this subject as it applies to Taiji, it is: "Through the Western Gate".. Rick uses Western science to illustrate the wisdoms of the Taiji ancestors.. the book is readable, practical, and verifiable in practice and research documentation.. The CT is the link to the mystic aspects of Taiji legends, but now it is understood from a Western practicallity.. A companion book, "The Field", by Lynn McTaggert, supplies even more hard science that illustrates the potential for "apparent" Mysticism in the mundane.. The title of Rick's book is a reference to the door/gate/barrier that western culture has guarded against anything not quantiafiable by measure and method.. There is a system, CT, that can demonstrate most of the matters usually considered as fanciful myth.. we have simply forgotten how to access remarkable tool..

Be well..



TCB

As usual, a great read. Would you know of any websites or books that talk of the legendary Qi masters of old besides the books mentioned above?? Thanks


Best

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ronin22; Go to your local book store and look in the MA section.. or go to the magazine rack, mags usually have some historical stuff that is interesting.. Below are some links that help with understanding the CT system and its importance to our Art.. i hope it helps..

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php

http://theamt.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=143

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3987/is_200212/ai_n9153887

http://www.uvm.edu/~annb/faculty/PDFs/C747.pdf

http://www.sportsmedicinenaturally.com/

http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/article.php?id=13204&MERCURYSID=43996f44d991fb95f0cb6dcb58d6f671

http://www.backfixbodywork.com/Athletic_Performance_Enhancement_Pt_2.htm

http://www.healing101.org/somaticrecall1.html

http://biotensegrity.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=29

http://www.idealspine.com/pages/AJCC/AJCC_new/July2001/pdf/Murphy%207%2001.pdf

Be well.....

[fiercest tiger]

WOW, thanks Taiji Bob great info and i do appreciate it muchly! More to study on now, Dr John be prepared for a call to meet up my brother!!! ;)

Garry

[Ronin22]

Thanks a lot TCB this looks awesome! Appreciate it!


Best

[imperialtaichi]

Dynamic pushing hands is not about bouncing people out - it's about developing structure and peng jin. You give your partner as much pressure as his structure can bear, then at the point of failure your partner sits back into the rear leg and then pushes you out. The better you get, the more relaxed you are - you let the opponent load your structure for you and then throw them out when it suits.



Hello Paul,

I agree with most of what you wrote, but in my opinion only.....

What I find is not so much a matter of training the structure to bear a lot of pressure in a relaxed manner, but to train the structure to dissipitate as much incoming force as possible so that the structure does not have to bear much pressure at all. Hence there is a saying "Li Bu Guo Wan" meaning the opponent's force must never penetrate pass your wrist.

It is also NOT about relaxing and using minimal muscular effort; but to shift the mind set from using muscles to using the naturally expanding Yi Qi for Peng (kind of correlates to the CT theory TaiChiBob talked about) through relaxation. So the moment someone thinks about "I must use minimal muscular effort" it is already wrong, as one should think more along the line of "I'll forget about the body and let it be."

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John,

Your last comment is true but a beginner still needs a way of understanding softness right rather then just let it be! I mean there are many factors behind neutralizing or redirecting, grounding strikes or incoming forces.

Are you free next monday or tuesday? :)

Garry

[imperialtaichi]

Hi John,

Your last comment is true but a beginner still needs a way of understanding softness right rather then just let it be!



Hello Garry,

You're totally right! This softness business is so **** hard to explain, so **** hard to understand. It took me many years before understanding it myself. The thing is, when someone is using muscles to push back, no matter how soft he/she is still using muscles to push back. The classics talk about "Bu Diu Bu Ding" which mean "no opposing, no retreating." When one opposes using muscles, no matter how little, is still opposing. When one yields physically (the floppy noodle thing) no matter how little one is still retreating.

Cheers,
John

p.s. I can only do Wednesdays. I'll SMS you.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi John - fair comment. I think it true to say that one needs to develop a structure before letting go within it - that delightful 'release' when you're not doing anything other than letting their force go through you is not something a beginner can attain without going through stages of relaxation. At some point something in their mind goes "aha" and they stop working in the context of 'minimum' and start working with 'emptying'. It's a tricky one to teach - my students can feel the difference when I show them, but it hasnt helped them to "get it" (I've only been teaching for two years though, so they're very new to this)

Cheers

Paul

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The concept of Peng can be accurately described using the CT system.. the effects are consistent when evaluated by result and structure.. The ancestors had no science to describe the remarkable effects they experiencing from correct alignment and relaxing into the CT structure.. My first experience with CT activation (where i was taught to consciously activate it) was overwhelming.. it opened an entirely new and profound aspect of Taiji.. and, the fact that there was verifiable science supporting it added to the comfort level.. one of my first thoughts was, wowzers!! the ancestors did know something special!...

The use of the CT system relies on perfectly natural movement, without the "conflict" of separating the consciousness into competing elements.. if i have my hands on the opponent's elbows, i lift and push as though i am lifting a punch-bowl up into the cupboard.. as i am lifting, i point my index fingers enough to feel the tingle of activation.. try it, point the index fingers into a little bit of a stretch.. feel the tingle?.. that is a signal that activates the CT system (i'm still researching the why and how, but it works).. The lifting and pushing as though it were the simple task of putting the punch-bowl away minimizes the "conflict" which separates and calls the weaker slower neuro-muscular system into play.. rather than "push" someone in a conflict of wills, reach out and touch them, or reach past them.. WCC Chen says it's like offering them a cup of tea or coffee.. the speed is amazing when the muscles are merely the support for the CT.. try reaching for something at arm's length, no intended power, just a quick reach.. remember the last time you knocked something over or dropped something.. usually, the CT system activates, naturally, and sometimes (if the mind doesn't go "crap, now look what i've done") there is this natural, blinding, smoothly accurate speed as we seem to scoop the mistake up before it actually manifests.. THAT is the CT in action.. but, once the mind engages in analysis and response evaluation the muscles fire-up and the movement either freezes or blunders..

One of the challenges is to relax into the Kua, relax the Glutes, the Abs and the low back.. this frees-up the pelvis/hips and permits the CT to activate without the interference of muscular tension which dampens the vibrations of the CT.. The CT communicates throughout the body and to every cell through vibrational frequencies, and.. excessive muscular tension dampens the virbations.. the usual tension in the Kua region separates the upper and lower body and diminishes the effectiveness of the CT system.. Once the Kua is minimally tense you attain whole body/unified connectivity.. and the energy in the CT begins to achieve a level of coherence..

Another interesting observation is, if you meditate, try your favorite meditation posture with pointing index fingers.. it is spooky how quickly and easily the alpha state is attained.. the "monkey chatter" is almost eliminated by simply activating the CT system.. By my experience, this is the stuff the ancestors discovered but could not describe.. they gave it mystical names and analogies.. but, it's here today as quantifiable experience.. and, so far, i can't find any inconsistencies...

Be well...

[fiercest tiger]

Ahhhhhhhhhh I understand what you mean, thanks alot Bob that has made my day!


awesome info you said a book that is worth reading up on this stuff?? never mind its on the previous page ill check it out mate. :)

Regards
Garry