Pad Holding Thread

[Water Dragon]

Just wanted to start a thread on holding pads or mitts. I don't think we've donne that before. Just throw your thoughts/questions out there.

I'll start. I've founf that i got a lot of benefit out of holding for my coach. I could watch him move and feel the power at the same time. It helped me fix a lot of holes in my own technique just be looking at how he did things different than I did.

[IronFist]

If you're holding Thai pads and your partner is doing Thai kicks, don't look in the mirror as he's kicking to check his form. Every time I tried to do that I would get plowed because I wouldn't be ready for the kick. This is assuming you're facing the mirrors at the time.

[Mr Punch]

My pad-holding may well suck.

Anyone any simple hints?

[Water Dragon]

Where do you think the problem is?

[Pork Chop]

Pad working should be interactive and somewhat freestyle.

You need the fighter to think about defense as well as offense, looking for openings, and hitting a moving target.

Doin the same combo for reps, for an entire round, is about the easiest way to get mediocre performance out of a fighter. I would say 5 to 10 repetitions max at a time.

Using those lame Combat Sports International pads kinda shook my confidence in my ability to do pad work- they stink, they collapse under force, and they just plain hurt my wrists. Would definitely say a good set of pads can contribute to a better workout: Twins, Permabilt, Windy, (maybe) Fairtex.

A good body shield or belly pad can be a real asset too.

[Mas Judt]

Fairtex gear works great.

[Pork Chop]

I don't like their gloves or their shin guards and their customer service the past few years has really been terrible. I've kicked one pair of their thai pads (the ones with the raised ridge in the center) and it was alright. My fav' will probly always be Twins, with Permabilt a close second due to the crazy weight.

[SevenStar]

basics -

have the feeder watch his partner. this adds an active element for him, as it will give him the chance to watch an attacking opponents body movements, teaching him how to read them.

have the feeder "hide" the striking surface until he's ready for the striker to strike. This trains the reaction time of the puncher. If the drill is being done free style, the puncher will continue to punch in combination until the pads are hidden again.

the participants should move around, as if they were sparring. This makes the drill more alive than merely standing in one place.

both should be in a fighting stance at all times.


combinations

jab

jab / cross

jab / cross / hook

jab / cross / hook / cross

jab / jab

jab / cross / hook / rear leg roundhouse (rlr)

jab / cross / hook / uppercut

jab / cross / lead leg roundhouse (llr)

jab / cross / hook / uppercut / hook

you get the idea.

[SevenStar]

for gloves, you can't beat windy. after that, I like ringside. I like CSI's mma gloves though.

[SevenStar]

I don't like their gloves or their shin guards and their customer service the past few years has really been terrible. I've kicked one pair of their thai pads (the ones with the raised ridge in the center) and it was alright. My fav' will probly always be Twins, with Permabilt a close second due to the crazy weight.

fairtex customer service is great if you know how to work the system. It can take months for shipping if they know they can take their time. However, I ordered some shorts and told them I had a fight within the next two weeks (which I actually did) and they shipped them to me within three days.

[SevenStar]

intermediate

once you have a handle on the basics, you get students to train less predictable rhythms. instead of the basic left, right, left have them train left, left or left, left right, etc. One thing I've noticed is that there is not a whole lot of this. that is why hooking off the jab tends to be pretty effective. Also, introduce feinting into the equation. Once the student has a grasp of this, attack them, drilling defense into their game.

jab / lead hook (hooking off the jab)

jab / cross / rlr

jab / cross / uppercut / lead hook

jab / cross / lead hook to body / lead hook to head

feint jab / cross / hook / plamb (from the rear hand, as if you were throwing a cross) / knee

cross / uppercut / lead hook / rlr

and so forth. Don't forget to have them work the body as well - you don't want to produce headhunters.

feed them a jab. striker slips outside and counters with hook / cross / hook

feed a jab. he parries and returns a jab of his own.

feed a hook to the body. he blocks, followed by uppercut / cross / hook / cross

feed a jab / rear hook. he slips outside, then weaves under the hook. counter with cross / hook cross

[SevenStar]

I think you guys get the gist of it. Once the student is of a more advanced level, the drills can be performed freestyle. you move around, as if sparring. Feed something and the puncher will throw any combination he wants until the target is removed. atacks from the feeder are spontaneous, so the striker defends and counters as he would in a fight.

Also at this level, introduce more advanced cooncepts, like jabbing out after a combo and the pereference of ending combinations with the lead hand. (by ending with the rear, you are wound up for a strike with the lead anyway, so you may as well throw it, if there is opportunity.)


For all levels:

while feeding, be sure to check for holes in the pucher's game. if he drops his hands while throwing certain combos, for instance, let him know. After two warnings, start hitting him when you see the opening. Check his stance - does it narrow or widen as he moves, or does he maintain a good base? does he always move in the same direction?

introduce awareness as well - if he circles toward your rear hand / leg, he's walking right into your power shot, for example.

[Pork Chop]

I ordered elbow pads back in 2003 that I still haven't gotten yet. haha


I recently got a pair of windy 16 oz gloves and I'm not sure how I feel about 'em. The fill is pretty hard, but was already starting to soften up a lil after a few minutes on the bag. the liner wasn't very well sewn into the rest of the glove, so it was kinda bunching a lil. I'm sure once I break 'em in they'll be alright.

At the moment, though, Grant gloves (the 12 oz super bag gloves & 16 oz training gloves) are the best gloves I have ever used, bar none.



Nice additions on the pad stuff. My fav' combos are significantly different, but then I'm backwards. :D

(l = lead, r = rear)

hands
ljab - lhook - rcross - lhook
ljab - lupper - rcross - lhook - rcross
ljab - rcross - half step back - rcross
rcross - lhook - rcross
lhook - rcross - lhook
lupper - rcross - lhook
rupper - lhook - rcross

hands & feet:
ljab - lshuffle roundkick - rcross
lpushkick - roverhand - luppercut - rroundkick
lpushkick - ljab - rcross - lhook - rroundkick
ljab - rcross - ljab - lswitch roundkick
rcross - off angle lhook - rroundkick
rcross - lhook - rcross - lswitch roundkick
lhook - rcross - lhook - rroundkick

Nice thing about having very similar combos with slight variations is that you confuse your opponent and make it so he's not used to seeing the same thing.

Also a lot of these combos have targets (head, body), angles (lunging, off a slip, off a pivot), and details (lazy/blocking type, big bomb, tight, sharp, and short) that aren't described in these combo lists and are fun to mix up and play with. Linking combos together, with a defensive move in the middle is also a lot of fun.

[hskwarrior]

Yeah as a TCMA stylist who came from the old school way of practicing hard but never hitting anything, I've realized thru my students what TCMA lacked. So i've incorporated the thai pads for Choy Lee Fut forearm strikes, our wide arching swinging techniques, elbows, and most of our basics. Focus mitts for focused striking, but the focus mits with the dot in the middle are great for timing training as well.

What we do is hold the focus mits facing each other, and randomly open them up and the puncher has to punch when he sees the dot.

Choy Lee Fut's "KWA SOW CHOP" is a great and effective 3 strike combination. Kwa= (for us) an over the top backhand aimed at the head. Our Sow Choy= the wide swinging like a haymaker, but more scientifically designed, and is Choy Lee Fut's knock out punch (very effective when striking the back of the kneck and skull.
the Chop (chop choy) is basically a straight stabbing like jab. the way i do it is inverted, because when you turn the fist over and aim with those two knuckles it gives you a little more reach.

the banana bag is another of my favorites.

peace.

[David Jamieson]

man, i can'[t believe you guys took the time to write out combos..twice! lol

these things are self evident....

[SevenStar]

not self evident to all. There have been threads where people ask for combos to work on pads. I've also received PMs asking for them...

[Pork Chop]

man, i can'[t believe you guys took the time to write out combos..twice! lol

these things are self evident....

Not only are they not self evident, but except for the hooking off the jab combo that 7* put in while i was typing mine, I don't think we had a single overlapping combo.

EDIT: one of the uppercut-cross combos i think might've been a duplicate. 2 out of 30+ ain't bad.

[Pork Chop]

So i've incorporated the thai pads for Choy Lee Fut forearm strikes, our wide arching swinging techniques, elbows, and most of our basics. Focus mitts for focused striking, but the focus mits with the dot in the middle are great for timing training as well.

What we do is hold the focus mits facing each other, and randomly open them up and the puncher has to punch when he sees the dot.


A bodyshield from Title boxing would be PERFECT for this. Ricky hatton's coach puts on spar mitts and a body shield and they'll do like 30 minutes straight of the free form stuff, almost like sparring. I got one and it's good for bodykicks too.

[SevenStar]

We do a drill with the body shield where the feeder can throw any techniques he wants. The puncher must get inside on the feeder, land body shots and get out - he can only attack the body.

[hskwarrior]

actually,

what i'm shooting for is the police issued "REDMAN" outfit. This suit has you covered head to toe in padding, and allows you to go buck wild on the one wearing it. It's great for that realistic resistance training.

hsk

[SevenStar]

the big bobble head suit they use in some women's self defense classes?

[hskwarrior]

noot that one. but something along the same lines except that you are literally covered head to toe.

Once during practice my classmate (who trains local military and police) utilizes the RedMAn outfit, and I got to full blast no holding back drills. the only side effect is Uppercuts directly under the chin is not covered.

here is a link to the red man gear......http://www.redmangear.com/training.jhtml

this second link is the one i was speaking about exactly
http://store.botachtactical.com/redman.html

click on the picture in the left corner to see an enlarged version of that.

But this is one fun outfit to use for training.

[Water Dragon]

You can also work punch throw combos when using focus mits. We tried Thai Pads too, but that doesn't really work so well.

A couple combos: jab-cross-step-Diagonal Cut (O Soto Gari)
jab-cross-(step and grab the neck)-knee-forward mop (dunno if this one's in Judo. Haven't seen it anyway)
jab-cross-(throw a looping hook that is actually a headlock. Real similar to working in a Thai clinch off a jab-cross)-inner thigh lifting(Uchi Mata)
Jab-cross-uppercut-uppercut-underhook-doubleunderhook-a lot of options from here.

Good times!

[Water Dragon]

Reaction drills. Reaction drills teach you to automatically defend and counter when you are attacked. Here's the basic techniques I like to work. I'm assuming a right foot forward stance since I fight Southpaw.

1. Looping punch. He throws the pad parallel at your head. Duck under, cross-hook-cross
2. Same thing but he throws the left. Duck under, hook cross hook
3. catch the jab with your right, left cross.
4. Block the left cross with your right, left cross
5. Block the right hook with your left. hook-cross-hook
6. Block the body shot. uppercut-hook-uppercut (do both sides for this one.

Practice them as 2 minute drills, one at a time until you get them down good. Then, begin calling them out. 1, walk around, 4, walk around, 6, walk around 6, walk around, etc. Do these as 3 minute drills. Finally, do the same thing without calling out shots. The pad holder had better be good for this one.

You can also do this on the pads and add in kicks and knees.

[Pork Chop]

here is a link to the red man gear......http://www.redmangear.com/training.jhtml

this second link is the one i was speaking about exactly
http://store.botachtactical.com/redman.html



Wow that's nuts.
The nice thing about only doin the body shield is that once you get it fitted correctly you can switch it out quickle if needbe.
But you definitely got more options with that Redman.



Okay new topic: favorite suitcase bags for leg kicks.
I like I&I Sports used to have a large kicking shield that was great for use as a suitcase bag- I've never seen a pad take as much off of a leg kick as that.
After that, Fairtex's suitcase bag is nice with handles on top and bottom

[Water Dragon]

off topic but the body shield thing caught me. Here is a Boxing drill that is basically the same thing as CMA's Iron Body and gives the same results.

Put on some gloves and you and your partner are goint to hit each other at the same time. This teaches you contract and take the punch at the same time you're punching.

If you've boxed, think about. Which are the body shots that really take you out? The ones you take while you're throwing a punch. You can go real heavy on this drill once you get the hang of it.

[Pork Chop]

Reaction drills. Reaction drills teach you to automatically defend and counter when you are attacked. Here's the basic techniques I like to work. I'm assuming a right foot forward stance since I fight Southpaw.


Your reaction drills sound almost exactly like the ones i do. Nice. :)

One thing I'm curious about though is the parrying with your lead and firing the cross in right away. I can't remember who, but someone told me that this is illegal. I've always been curious about that coz it is effective and I should probly use it.

There was a guy at my old gym that would always tear me up with his cross. I think he would wait for me to parry that jab and fire the cross in as soon as I made contact. He would catch me every time; think i just figured out what he was doing just now, talk about slow!!! hahaha

[Water Dragon]

It got to the pint with me that I would never throw a cross when I sparred with Miguel. Everytime I did, he slipped the punch and when I was pulling my cross back to my chin, his hand was ALWAYS right on top of mine. BOOM

[Water Dragon]

One thing I'm curious about though is the parrying with your lead and firing the cross in right away. I can't remember who, but someone told me that this is illegal. I've always been curious about that coz it is effective and I should probly use it.



It's legal in MMA, and I think it's legal in both boxing and Muay Thai too. I don't see why it wouldn't be. It goes against the logic of blocking with the same side you're getting attacked on, but I think it's one of those 'exception to the rule that proves the rule' things.

[Pork Chop]

Well it all comes down to how the individual ref interprets the rules.

USA Boxing Rule book 107.5.16b #9-11:
(9) Holding.
(10) Holding and hitting or pulling and hitting.
(11) Holding, or locking, of the opponent’s arm or head, or pushing an arm
underneath the arm of the opponent.

Parrying the arm at the same time you fire with the cross could possibly be seen as an illegal hold/push/press, which is why I've wanted some clarification.

Then again #12 and 13 are silly rules that I haven't seen enforced. Eventhough pro boxing's a different game, old time boxers did 12 all the time, Winky Wright's made a career of 13.
(12) Ducking below the belt of the opponent in a dangerous manner.
(13) Completely passive defense by means of double cover and
intentionally failing to avoid a blow.

One of the worst-reffed matches I ever saw had a teammate of mine get constantly abused by the following with not even a warning from the ref.
(6) Hitting while holding the ropes or making any unfair use of the ropes.
(7) Lying on, wrestling and throwing in the clinch.
(20) Pushing, shoving.

[SevenStar]

Wow that's nuts.
The nice thing about only doin the body shield is that once you get it fitted correctly you can switch it out quickle if needbe.
But you definitely got more options with that Redman.



Okay new topic: favorite suitcase bags for leg kicks.
I like I&I Sports used to have a large kicking shield that was great for use as a suitcase bag- I've never seen a pad take as much off of a leg kick as that.
After that, Fairtex's suitcase bag is nice with handles on top and bottom

only suitcase bag I've used is windy's. They have been holding up well so far. you will still feel a really hard kick, though - it doesn't take a whole lot off of it.

[yenhoi]

L = left R = right Kick = "thai Kick" (can also be savate groin kicks, but not usually.)

We call these 'long-four-count-combos':

LKick - C - H - LKick
LKick - C - H - RKick
RKick - H - C - RKick
RKick - H - C - LKick

'short-four-count-combos':

LSnap Elbow - RSkip Knee - LKnee - RDown Elbow
LSnap Elbow - RSkip Knee - LKnee - LSnap Elbow
RDown Elbow - LKnee - RSkip Knee - RDown Elbow
RDown Elbow - LKnee - RSkip Knee - LSnap Elbow

Then we have 15 count, 17 count, and 18 count 'long combos.'

I liked these from the Kun Khao training log a few years ago:

Jab - LElbow - RUppercut - LHook
LTeep - RTeep - LKick - RKick - Jab - Cross - RKnee - LKnee
LTeep - C - H - RKick
H - C - H - RKick
Teep - RKnee - LElbow - RElbow - RKnee - RKick

A cool set of drills that follow this format - 'knee-reaction-drills':

Parry Cross/RKnee Under Cross - LSnap Elbow - RDown Elbow - Push With LHand - Step into Two RKicks

With the focus mitts, and even thai pads, have them double or triple up on the same blow at the end of combos.

Rounds of hitting as hard as they can, Rounds of hitting as fast as they can.

Padwork variations are endless.

You can work almost anything on Focus Mitts, thai kicks can be difficult but you can work them, so you can work with focus mitts in all ranges pretty successfully.

Vale Tudo drills, you just kinda pick a position and learn to hit hard from it while moving to a better position. Even specific situations, like on your side against the wall/corner/cage, or GnP, etc.

:eek:

[bodhitree]

Move the feet, change the distance. One i like is just letting the attacker guage his jab by exposing the pad as you step back or back and to the side.