Weapons in Southern Gongfu

[Minghequan]

Who here studies weapons and what weapons do you study?

What do you feel is the definative Southern Kung-Fu weapon?

[mok]

Who here studies weapons and what weapons do you study?

What do you feel is the definative Southern Kung-Fu weapon?

monkey-pole,
daan dao,
gim,
double broadsword,
double daggers,
cane,
butterfly knives.,

As for definative weapons, I would have to say butterfly knives, with possibly broadsword second. Staff is too universal to be any region's "definitive weapon".

[David Jamieson]

definitive?

well, in my opinion, I'd say that the butterfly knives are the definitive southern cma weapon.

north and south both have broadsword, staff, polearms, flexible weapons, double weapons, etc etc.

But southern Kungfu has the corner on the butterfly knives. (8 cut knives for the wc peeps)

[hunt1]

Thanks for the help David but we call them butterfly knives too! 8 cut is the name of the form in the Yip Man family other families have different names for the form.

[ngokfei]

For me:

southern styles:
Long Pole
Butterfly Knives
Tools (Fork, Rake, Hoe, etc)

other weapons like the:
Saber, Spear, Kwando, etc. were adopted from the military of the North

[David Jamieson]

Thanks for the help David but we call them butterfly knives too! 8 cut is the name of the form in the Yip Man family other families have different names for the form.

yep I realize that Bhat Jarm Do is the name of the form, but nevcertheless, this doesn't prevent most of teh wc players i know from calling the kniwves the same name. a lot of them had never even heard the term wu dip do.

anyway, I had forgotten to mention the tiger fork! that's a southern weapon moreso than northern, but not as widespread used as butterfly knives in southern styles. The big southern styles all pay good attention to these while northern styles for the most part do not have this weapon at all.

[TenTigers]

staff, and butterfly swords. each the epitome of their range, long and short respectively.

[Minghequan]

Thanks for the replies. I greatly appreciate it! :)

[Lam Tong Long]

My style, Southern Mantis, is known for it's 'tid jek' (aka Iron Ruler) which is almost identical to a japanese 'sai'.

Does any other chinese style use this weapon? Maybe is it a staple of hakka styles?

[Shaolindynasty]

mine aren't weapons but weapon forms.

These staff sets seem pretty common

Monkey king staff
Ng Long Bat Gwa Gwun

also

Northern stylist seem to hold the straight sword in high reguard. Southern stylist seem to prefer the dao (broadsword). A unique southern weapon would be the bench

[Leto]

Yang Jwing Ming describes the iron ruler (cha/sai) as a weapon in his white crane lineage, in one of his books. It is also listed as one of the "common" weapons in a book about Shantung Black Tiger (a northern shaolin art). I believe the cha, or sai, is a weapon that was exported to Okinawa through China.

[CLFNole]

I also think Ng Cho Kuen uses it as well so there could be some relationship with the short hand styles. If lung ting, bak mei and yau kung mun have then it definately would be a short hand thing.

CLF doesn't have this.

[Ben Gash]

Actually Nole, in the Malay CLF lineage that I learned initially there was a Sai/Gen form. I also know a Mok Gar school that does them.
It is most prevalent in Fujian styles though.

[CLFNole]

Ben:

I would guess the set was brought in from another style as I have never heard it mentioned in CLF.

[Fu-Pow]

What I think of as Southern Weapons:

Daan do, butterfly knives, staff

Northern Weapons:

Gim, Spear , Guan Do

[CLFNole]

I don't think dan do is very exclusive to southern arts. Most northern styles were well known for dan do ie. pek kwar do, lok hup do, etc... I think dan do was the main weapon for military foot soldiers for the reason it is easy to teach basic fighting movements with, whereas the gim was held in much higher regard due to the complexity and higher skill level in its use.

For southern weapons I would go along with butterfly knives and long single-head staff.

[Fu-Pow]

You are right but for some reason I just associate Daan Do with the Southern Arts more. Maybe its the LACK of gim forms in the southern arts, so that I see the southern people performing Daan Do and the Northern peeps showing off with their gim forms.

[CLFNole]

You are 100% correct there, gim is definately seen more in the northern styles. The southern gim forms I have seen are lets just say lacking and rather basic. I think dan do is equally shared as is sheng do.

[Eddie]

so anyone knows where the nan dao comes from? Its suppose to be southern, but I cant find info on exactly which style used it before the IWuF got hold of it.

BTW- Southern staff is way more awsome than nothern staff (in my not so important opinion) :cool:

[Asmo]

The dao form that most Hung Gar schools teach has been imported by Lam Tsai Wing from the monkey style. The forms name is "Pek Gua Daan Dao". But as always, you'll see many diiferent romantizations such as Pek Gwar Darn Dao, etc.

If I am not mistaken, this is a northern style and thus imported northern form. More information about this dao you can find at: http://www.hunggarkuen.it/eng/daando.html

In our school we have a different dao form though which has a more southern feel to it and has a Moi Fa background.

[Eddie]

im talking about the nandao (IWuF) form. Its supposed to be a southern-style-only form.

I saw video clips of the Chilly CLF school where they do double hand saber that pretty much looks like nan dao. that double hand saber looked pretty awsome

[Asmo]

I was not replying to your post, but to previous posts which spoke in general about the "dao" being southern or not, not to your post about the nan-dao.

Of the nan-dao I don't know much else then what you said as well, that there is a "southern wushu" form. As a matter of fact, I cant recall having seen much pictures of the thing else then the modern tinfoil type... Even a Google Images search for "nan dao" doesnt reveal any, let alone "nan dao" antique...

[Eddie]

no worries :cool:
the sword style itself is also very nanquanish ;) if you know what i mean. just interested to know where it originates from

how bout the wooden bench? isnt that purely southern?

[Fu-Pow]

I believe the sword was a military issue broadsword/machete that Chang Kai Shek's soldiers carried. I'm not sure if the weapon predates that. There was an article I read somewhere......:confused:

[hasayfu]

My style, Southern Mantis, is known for it's 'tid jek' (aka Iron Ruler) which is almost identical to a japanese 'sai'.

Does any other chinese style use this weapon? Maybe is it a staple of hakka styles?

Ha Say Fu Hung Gar has it
http://www.wle.com//products/vhg32.html

Most of the weapons that are unique to southern are the everyday item stuff. Fork, bench, hoe, etc.

That said, the old adage still holds. The fist are the family's but the weapons are borrowed.

[Sow Choy]

Asmo...

I am pretty close friends with the Monkey King Chan Sau Chung and Master Chow Keung of Tai Shing Pek Kwar Moon, The Monkey & Axe Fist Style....

They were talking about Grandmaster Kwan Tak Hoi coming over from China to Hong Kong... He needed a place to live so Lam Sai Wing told Lam Jo to take him in and that his kung fu was very good, so he did...

He passed on that Dahn do and some other sets to Lam Jo, as well as taught many sets at Ching Woo in China I believe... Even in the Lee Koon Hung line we have this form, Lee Koon Hung's brother is a teacher of Northern Shaolin which has a few sets from Kwan Tak Hoi...

In the Tai Shing Pek Kwar Moon they also have sets from other systems like Baji, Taji (an older chen style), Pakua, Mizhong and others I probably dont know about...

Joe

[YMC]

so anyone knows where the nan dao comes from?

There really isn't such a thing as a nan dao. The closest historical antecedents to what you'd use for the wushu form is a civilian dadao (big knife) of a style commonly used circa Boxer Rebellion. The dadao used during the Chinese civil war and WWII era are variations on what almost looks like a big cleaver and aren't quite the same. Although my sample is limited, I rarely see the almost straight-backed "nan-dao" style blade with the S shaped guard although I do own one example with an S shaped guard (see attached pic).

Frankly, the wushu nan dao is almost like a enlarged modern butterfly knives popular in Wing Chun, not quite what you see with my example. Also, as an off topic thought, I've rarely run into antique buuterfly knives that look like what you'd buy at say MartialartsMart today; almost every example I've seen tapers to a sharp point, and tends to be quite slim in profile.

[jmd161]

In the Tai Shing Pek Kwar Moon they also have sets from other systems like Baji, Taji (an older chen style), Pakua, Mizhong and others I probably dont know about...

Joe

TSPK also has some Hak Fu Mun (Blk Tiger) forms/sets within it.


I'd say Butterfly Knives.......I haven't noticed a Northern Chopsticks and Bowl weapon set either. I know Hung Fut,Jow Ga and Hak Fu Mun have this set, not sure how many others.

jeff

[Asmo]

I go with the butterfly knifes as well :) And I would LOVE to see a vid of a Chopsticks and Bowl weapon set!

I just keep getting these images of beggar-fu in my head while trying to imagine how it would look like :)

[Lama Pai Sifu]

We have a bowl and chopstick set. From the beggar style, there is even a bowl and gim form! Chan Tai-San taught a lot of esoteric stuff.....

like the flying eagle belt, as well!

Cooool stuff.

[Asmo]

If you ever have a chance to videotape some of it, or know where it might be viewable online already, I'd love to see it :)

[jmd161]

I doubt you'd ever find a vid of chopsticks and bowl online, it's too much of a treasured set in most systems that have it. I posted some pics of it awhile back and some pics of our chinese wooden handcuff form also.



Here are some links to the pics

[jmd161]

Here's the other two pis.




jeff:)

[Asmo]

That's awesome! Thanks :)

Seeing those handcuffs I seem to get some flashbacks from Outlaws from the Marsh, even though then it was mostly put around the necks, hehe.

Thanks for those :)

[DRleungjan]

Wow....those are indeed awsome pics! I am always amazed at the ingenuity if the Chinese to use ordinary daily implements as weapons.


DRleungjan :)

[CLFNole]

I know tai sing pek kwar mun as a hand-cuffed form. I think it originates from the Wu Song character from Outlaws of the Marsh.

[Asmo]

DRleungjan, handcuffs are "ordinary daily implements" for you? Haha :p

CLFNole, then my flashbacks were more accurate then initially thought ;)

I'd still love to see a vid of these though. This is something you only expect to see in 70's kungfu flicks. :)

[Fu-Pow]

We have a bowl and chopstick set. From the beggar style, there is even a bowl and gim form! Chan Tai-San taught a lot of esoteric stuff.....

like the flying eagle belt, as well!

Cooool stuff.

Forget bowls and chopsticks, CLF has a rice form...you put rice on your foot and do a jump spinning crescent kick flinging rice into the eyes of your opponents in all directions.

[jmd161]

We have a bowl and chopstick set. From the beggar style, there is even a bowl and gim form! Chan Tai-San taught a lot of esoteric stuff.....

like the flying eagle belt, as well!

Cooool stuff.


Do you have any info on the origin of the beggar style he taught?


I ask because according to word of mouth Soo Hak Fu of Ten Tigers fame created the chopsticks and bowl weapon set, many accounted it to Beggar Soo. There are some other sets that are acredited to Soo Hak Fu also, but knowledge of him is very scarce.

jeff:)

[DRleungjan]

DRleungjan, handcuffs are "ordinary daily implements" for you? Haha :p

CLFNole, then my flashbacks were more accurate then initially thought ;)

I'd still love to see a vid of these though. This is something you only expect to see in 70's kungfu flicks. :)



Ooooh maaaan, Asmo, hahaha...I didn't even realize!...I was actually referring to the bowl and chopsticks pics. But I'm also aware that the that there are other weapons used...such as the bench, and tonfa (single leg baton?)...are used in some southern arts. Thanx for pointing out my blunder...maaan handcuffs....hahaha


DRleungjan :)

[Su Lin]

I'm currently employing a large (ish) stick to practice knife defence until my knife arrives! Looking forward to beginning weapons at some point in the near future!:o