Has WWIII Begun? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 12:03 PM

First, there is only mind.
Following this is cause and effect.
After that, consequences.

All actions are taken by humans for or against other humans or the world we live in. There is nothing holy about killing someone else no matter your belief or politics.

and yes, they are all sh1theads, but I think israel should beat the living crap out of it's detractors once and for all. Like really give them a sound beating. You can't tell someone they don't exist and then send bombers into their terrotory on a regular basis.

I have zero sympathy or empathy for fundamentalist islam.
Fundamentalist cHristians are just blabber mouths for the most part squeezing dollars out of old ladies for tape recordings of this pastor or that pastor going on and on out of context. Fundamentalist Christians aren't walking into train stations and blowing up innocent people. ON the other hand, fundamental muslims are.

therefore, i would agree with stamping out and crushing by force the movement by fundamentalist islam.

Bush as an aside is an idiot and a p1ss poor statesman and very crappy handler of the situation as it is. He's gotta go, no questions there. But this doesn't negate the fact that there are islamic terrorists who are doing damage around the world and have been doing so for decades.

I'll take a channel of pastor ted that I can flip to bugs bunny anyday over some crazy ass muslim punk bombing the subway in my city because he has no direction in life and chooses to listen to these whacko clerics who are mostly from teh UK by the way.

Blair sould deport those guys and let them say what they want out of the comfort of the west and out of reach of the maleable minds of the young they employ in their twisted jihad of chaos.

Ray Pina

07-13-2006, 12:05 PM

Then the whole world has the right to vote in U.S. elections. If there's a chance that my country will be attacked by the U.S. for a lame excuse, then i have the right.

I like this idea and would implement it across the board for all countries.

I have to say though, I'm very bad, I've yet to vote. I haven't found a parlor-tricktion that has motivated me to vote for them.

I figure these people with huge SUVs who vote for American idle have more vested in this nation than me so I let them decide. I figure no matter who's in we'll go to war when we have to, the rich will get tax brakes and blacks and hispanics will be discriminated against.

Personally, I believe things have reached a point where we have to be "over there" (anywhere fundamentalist muslims gather) because they have already exported them over "here" (Twin Towers fell less than 15 miles from where I now sit). Self preservation alone compells me to say, better them than me. Which is why other species kill of cubs who will cause them problems and compete for food in the future.

I don't. Because I believe God, Jah, Tao always provides for me ..... but it's the SUV/American Idol/Paris Hilton fanbase crowd.

Mas Judt

07-13-2006, 12:09 PM

Mas Judt

07-13-2006, 12:16 PM

Unfortunately our choice was.... John Kerry. Compared to him, GWB is a f@ckin genius (and GWB did have higher scores than Kerry at Yale - not to mention a Harvard MBA, making GWB on of the, if not the most eductated presidents ever).

'08 is looking bad too. The Dems are a wreck - led by a looney base that will never bring in someone sane. The Republicans have a sligtly better cast - but I don't see any Reagans out there... which is too bad, we need someone with his vision.

As far as tax cuts - the issue should not be cuts, but a fair tax. Simplify the code and install the flat tax. Right now, super rich like Ted Kennedy, George Soros, and Mrs. John Kerry pay lower taxes than almost anyone - because they can afford the lawyers and off-shore trusts. While the rest of us are screwed. This is why I don't trust the dems - they demand I pay more taxes, but they certainly won't pay them themselves. This disingenuous elitism is typical of corrupt regimes.

But now the Republicans are starting to act just like them, so what choice is there?

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 12:16 PM

I've got to admit is very funny that France, Russia, China - all these countries can invade and abuse other countries, and no one makes a peep. But if the U.S. takes action against a country that is an ATM and training ground for terrorists - and has used WMD's on thier own population - we somehow are equivilant to Hitler. (But not the Sov's taking Eastern Europe, waging wars all over the world, and invading Afghanistan or the Chinese invading Tibet or France trying to steal the Suez canal or retain it's 'colonies'.)

It is so tiresome that in moments of great humour I sometimes think we should start acting like people say we do. At least they'd STFU then :D

Dude, had the US attacked Iraq under the properp pretext I don't think anyone would have a beef with them doing what has been done so far.

BUT. The administration lied and created the incorrect pretext for invasion.

Politically, if W had any wit or savvy whatsoever, he would have approached the UN as before and instead of making up stories and lying, just point to the failure of saddam to abide by the resolutions set forth in Gulf War 1 and their failure to meet any and all inspections as laid out by the UN and the AE folks.

But they played the Liar card and instead they get dealt what they get dealt because of that. Bush was an idiot for pushing to fast. He could have still had his war and he could've had it with the world behind him. Unfortunately, he's a stupid cracker and is not much in the thinking department.

I will openly laugh when the next pres comes in, is more savvy, more erudite, more articulate and more willing to look at truths as opposed to fabricate lies. Why will I laugh? Because the war in Iraq will still be on, there will be no plans for withdrawal and there will be plans and implementation of a large us military base in Iraq in perpetuity as well as UK/US control of oil fields and pipelines through afghanistan and Iraq. The next pres will be able to get this acceptance simply because he will be more endowed with mind than the current idiot at the helm of the ship that is america at this time.

MasterKiller

07-13-2006, 12:26 PM

The Republicans have a sligtly better cast - but I don't see any Reagans out there...

No one willing to consult an Astrologer before they begin selling drugs to buy weapons for Iranian terrorists?

As far as tax cuts - the issue should not be cuts, but a fair tax. Simplify the code and install the flat tax. Right now, super rich like Ted Kennedy, George Soros, and Mrs. John Kerry pay lower taxes than almost anyone - ?

Oh yeah, Bush is middle class, right? :rolleyes:

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 12:26 PM

who has seen "Syriana"? A good film because it's fair, there's plenty of blame to go around. Oil and/or economic interests sure do effect US policy, but Middle East despots also have interests that lead to them exploiting their own people, keeping them poor and ignorant. THe poor and ignorant are then easy pickings for extremists.... Syriana hit the nail on the head, a little rice and lamb has recruited a lot of hungry people and turned them into terrorists

chud

07-13-2006, 12:32 PM

It's a real mess over there in the middle east. I have had it with radical islamic terrorists blowing themselves up and thinking that they're going to heaven to live the good life with their eleventy-billion virgins. But I'm also shocked by some of the extremism that I see the Israelis resorting to: trying to kill one guy by launching a rocket and blowing up the entire street corner that he's standing on, wrecking airports, keeping honest people from crossing through checkpoints so they can go to work, etc. Lately when I hear about all the stuff going on over there I just don't know what to think because both sides have become so morally reprehensible. I was talking to a jewish girl one time who had lived in Israel for a while, and she told me that most people on both sides want peace, but extremists on both sides are keeping that from happening. That seemed like one of the most balanced and truthful things I had heard. We need for the 'silent majority' over there (and over here) to speak up, vote, protest, or whatever.

That means you too Ray, next time there's an election you just cancel your throwdown and get out and vote! :D

KC Elbows

07-13-2006, 12:35 PM

Fundamentalist islamist movements, like christian fundamentalism in the US in the last decade, are more relevant because they are easily led than because of their specific beliefs. Hezbollah sees something to gain, send the fanatics, same with al queda. I seriously doubt that those in the leadership honestly believe the rhetoric that moves their pawns any more than GWB believes in checks and balances and conservative government.

The US equivalent is less virulent only because their leaders have to play nicer, rule of law and all. The leaders set the tone: mid nineties, lots of far right wacko groups talk about the end of America because of the ATF or FBI or whatever, suddenly rural militia nuts blow up the OK city building. Stupid people believing nutty things do whatever whoever they consider the holder of truth gives them just cause to do.

Any view that we are inately different, instead of different by the end results of our system of government and our civil liberties, is a one way ticket to equally stupid behavior.

However, I largely agree with Mas Judt on the next election, neither side is all too promising. It's nice having to lower our expectations from both parties at the time we seriously need the opposite to happen.

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 12:37 PM

Fundamentalist Christians aren't walking into train stations and blowing up innocent people. ON the other hand, fundamental muslims are.

You're right...

They blow up abortion clinics and gay night clubs

Oh and there was that little Oklahoma City thing

you might remember that. :rolleyes:

and Mas -

are you saying we are no better than Soviet Russia or Communist China? That our actions are of the same deplorable nature as theirs?

You must really hate America.

mantis108

07-13-2006, 12:39 PM

I saw a video called "Why We Fight". It does offer some sobering thoughts about the industrial military complex that is being set in motion by the Bush administration.

But really, this is more about the battle between the haves (western world and Isarel) and the have nots (palestinians, A***han, Iraq, etc..) BTW, the Palestinians believe that they were rob of their motherland. So does the Iraqis. Adding to the problem is warrior mentality reinforced by the Muslim faith. It's a very deadly combination. I have nothing against Islam and any reglion. It is just the way the reglious doctrain is about IMHO. Peace can only be achieve with equal footing and oneness in mind (hence, the infidel purging idea from some extreme quarters). We all know that's not going to happen. :eek:

For the have nots, it's a place between the hard floor and the rock. You fight you die; don't fight you also died. Why not die a "honor and glorious" death? Beside, you are going to see your dearest friend "Allah" So.. After that the world is not your problem anymore. It's selfish but it sounds rewarding for those who have not material wealth or intelligence. This is why one should never ever start anything with these people in the first place. Stay neutral, divide and conquer. Never meet them head on which is what the Bush administration has totally underestimate and misjudged the situation (faulty intelligence played a role as well). But then who put the Bush administration in the White House twice in a role in the first place? :confused:

It takes just a little anguish to start a war. It takes real courage to end it for good. Unfortunate, people without confidence act with emotions. Those are the one that are in power right now including Clark Kent wannabe, Steven H. in our Canadian elected officials (who said Canadian voters are smart?) So... Northern America is getting more and more right wing groupies playground.

I hope the Mars or Luna colonies will be ready in time for emigration. Oh wait, we might even up having Gundam wars....

Mantis108

WinterPalm

07-13-2006, 12:40 PM

This is what happens when the world's countries are run by paranoid lunatics who figure that the best way to get along is to stockpile as many weapons as possible. Is North Korea insane because it spends all of its food money on its nuclear program? How about America, the only country to drop Nuclear weapons on a civilian area, because they spend in excess of 400 Billion a year on military?

Global politics are a joke. The people don't matter. Democracy doesn't matter. Health care doesn't matter. Civilization and peace certainly don't matter.
It's all about the powerful exerting their power and getting their way. They push each other, cheat each other, lie to and spy on each other, and then wait for someone to take it a step further...then the propaganda about our great socialist or democratic believes, or muslim-christain beliefs, and how these make us the righetous and correct ones...All the while the guilt is across the board and the wrongs have been done for years and years while people still try to play innocent.

The five superpowers of the security council have histories more recent than most would like to admit, that are rife with human rights and international law violations. It's no surprise that the small countries are jumping to these conclusions and going above international law.

And in the process of war and making violence, very little dialogue goes into why these people are doing what they do. Why do Americans support such extreme military spending and deployment? Why do young arabs decide to blow themselves up just to kill a couple of the enemy? Yes, in both cases the propaganda and religious nonsense fuels the fears/racism/hatred, but people just don't act this way without deeper reasoning.

I don't have hatred of anybody...and I hope that this is not the WW3. Something does need to be done to curb military spending/religious fanaticism/political power struggles/ and extreme devaluation of people and the fetish of commodities.

The fact of the matter is: those casting the stones are not those without sin. And regardless of which side you are on, democracy isn't all its cracked up to be in the modern capitalist sense. Lunatics like Hamas and George Bush get elected and put in power by the will of the people!:eek:

Where is the love?

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 12:42 PM

You're right...

They blow up abortion clinics and gay night clubs

Oh and there was that little Oklahoma City thing

you might remember that. :rolleyes:

and Mas -

are you saying we are no better than Soviet Russia or Communist China? That our actions are of the same deplorable nature as theirs?

You must really hate America.

abortion clinics and gay nightclubs. ok, i agree, there are some Fundy Christians who have done deplorable acts such as you describe. But tell me this, how many of these incidents in comparison to the actions of radical Islam?

what's teh score on teh atrocities?

like a million to one? statistically speaking, almost negligable and thereby rendering your argument "made of straw".

also, the mcveigh thing was not fundamentalist christianity by a long shot. These were anti government people acting in a relatively small group or three or four people, possibly more and not involving thousands of willing accomplices.

Cherry picking in a field of apples doesn't yeild a lot of useful stuff.

Fundamentalist Islam deserves to be destroyed. Fundamentalist Christianity deserves to be ignored. :p

KC Elbows

07-13-2006, 12:43 PM

You're right...

They blow up abortion clinics and gay night clubs

Oh and there was that little Oklahoma City thing

It's also worthy of note to point out that the KKK do not burn stars of davids or ankhs on people's lawn.

emisosa

07-13-2006, 12:44 PM

but I think israel should beat the living crap out of it's detractors once and for all
I wonder what you might have thought in WWII with Germany.

Fundamentalist cHristians are just blabber mouths
Yes, one of them is called George W. Bush.
Just a blabber right? he's an angel.

Fundamentalist Christians aren't walking into train stations and blowing up innocent people
No, they only drop bombs and killed thousands of inocents calling it a war. What's the **** difference between Bush and Al Quaeda?
Bush has more resources and media control. who cares who started this things...

Thing is, you cannot compare Fundamentalism to goverments like Israel or the U.S. or UK. We are all humans who have the same problem. A group of people willing to destroy everyone who thinks differently, and still havent evolved enough to know that they are afraid to the unknown. A cultural clash is undergoing , and low IQ people tend to be afraid to the unknown. But, if you are to look into the greater good of mankind, 80% of the world can tell you who hurts them the most. Are they the terrorists? Is the biggest threat of the world Terrorism? Or the fact that nuclear wars can be wedge by a whole country?
Ignorance is the biggest threat. Fear to the unknown is the threat. And media control is the biggest threat.

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 12:52 PM

I wonder what you might have thought in WWII with Germany.

Yes, one of them is called George W. Bush.
Just a blabber right? he's an angel.

No, they only drop bombs and killed thousands of inocents calling it a war. What's the **** difference between Bush and Al Quaeda?
Bush has more resources and media control. who cares who started this things...

Thing is, you cannot compare Fundamentalism to goverments like Israel or the U.S. or UK. We are all humans who have the same problem. A group of people willing to destroy everyone who thinks differently, and still havent evolved enough to know that they are afraid to the unknown. A cultural clash is undergoing , and low IQ people tend to be afraid to the unknown. But, if you are to look into the greater good of mankind, 80% of the world can tell you who hurts them the most. Are they the terrorists? Is the biggest threat of the world Terrorism? Or the fact that nuclear wars can be wedge by a whole country?
Ignorance is the biggest threat. Fear to the unknown is the threat. And media control is the biggest threat.

Before you go further, I am going to say you display a surprising amount of ignorance on the subject.

Are you saying that the USA or the UK is a fundamentalist Christian Country? I'm telling you they're not.

Are you saying Bush is a fundamentalist Christian? Hogwash, i'll bet you a doghnut you can't even tell me what church he belongs to. Why? Because Bush is not a fundamentalist Christian and never has been. He see's evangelicals and fundamentalists as a portion of the voting population and he will exploit their beliefs to sell them his.

I also never said Bush was the sharpest knife in the drawer and in fact regard him as a less than desirable leader for teh US who needs to be thrown out of office pronto.

You really need to brush up on a few things. Start from the beginning and work your way forward through time and see iff you can manage to hang onto the hippy granola crap you're trying to sell with the why can't we be friends song.

Nonsense. :mad:

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 12:58 PM

What's the **** difference between Bush and Al Quaeda?

If you think Bush and Al Queda are equal, pretty much no point in continuing, you have NO credibility....

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 01:00 PM

abortion clinics and gay nightclubs. ok, i agree, there are some Fundy Christians who have done deplorable acts such as you describe. But tell me this, how many of these incidents in comparison to the actions of radical Islam?

what's teh score on teh atrocities?

like a million to one? statistically speaking, almost negligable and thereby rendering your argument "made of straw".

also, the mcveigh thing was not fundamentalist christianity by a long shot. These were anti government people acting in a relatively small group or three or four people, possibly more and not involving thousands of willing accomplices.

Cherry picking in a field of apples doesn't yeild a lot of useful stuff.

Fundamentalist Islam deserves to be destroyed. Fundamentalist Christianity deserves to be ignored. :p

get it right, boy...

McVeigh said he was avenging Waco.

No Fundies there I guess :rolleyes:

my arguement? you mean the one you just made up? talk about strawman.

I didn't make an argument. I stated a fact.

I pointed out that Xtian Fundies have in fact blown things up, and I made no comparison of quantity or importance to "Islamofashionistas". You said they don't blow up train stations and I agreed with you stating what they prefer to blow up.

sounds to me like you are arguing with yourself...

boy.

I forgot to mention the '96 Olympics bombing right here in the ATL. Shame on me.

What ever happened to that "Anthrax Terrorist" anyway?

must have fallen down the memory hole.

Master Killer -

don't forget pardoning all the convicted felons involved on his way out the door.

too bad we can't find anyone with that kind of vision, indeed.

whatever happened to all those presidentially pardoned convicted felons anyway?

Oh that's right! They are in the current Bush Administration... the administration with more convicted felons than all previous administrations combined.

KC Elbows

07-13-2006, 01:01 PM

I lean towards an interpretation where Bush isn't really a fundamentalist christian, but recognize that he is probably not bright enough to understand christianity on a level deeper than a so-called fundamentalist's one, so my view is probably not accurate.

In any case, if he is a true fundamentalist, he's a priviledged psuedo-royal first and foremost, so we've got that going for us.

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 01:02 PM

If you think Bush and Al Queda are equal, pretty much no point in continuing, you have NO credibility....

word up...

Bush has WAY more bombs

not even close to equal

mantis108

07-13-2006, 01:12 PM

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, right? Is that Mr B and his entourage is all about? Common, the biggest evil is the fact that evil can convince you there is no evil. So, I wouldn't assume anyone is innocent or guilty until proven otherwise. There is no proof they didn't let one slip to set in motion the master plan but there are some evidences that they could easily have. So...

Mantis108

WinterPalm

07-13-2006, 01:15 PM

One side has no weapons and no money, no food and no health care, no media control, and no future. They commit deplorable acts of violence via intimidation, suicide bombing, and sometimes through tribal warfare.

One side has a lot of weapons, consumes the most food via population density, has moderate health care across the board, controls the media tightly, and has a future in question due to protecting its control and influence. They commit deplorable acts of violence via intimidation, carpet bombing, and often through outright invasion and threat of WMD...which they have used several times before.

They both bring misconceptions, violence, hatred, and murder to the other. They lie to their followers and if they can, they convince their followers to do their bidding. George W. Bush does not seem to be an extremist, but he is definately a self-righetous man that comes from a country that believes it is always right.

These two groups could be America-Afghanistan...Israel-Palesteine...Russia-Chechnya...and countless others.

And yeah, Syriana summed it up pretty nicely...It's all about the lunatics at the top of the economic game calling the shots and every now and then convincing the public to either vote for them, or to join their holy war.
I hope for the sake of those personally involved, that as little death comes to theirs and who they love regardless of which path they've been misled onto.

Eddie

07-13-2006, 01:25 PM

You really need to brush up on a few things. Start from the beginning and work your way forward through time and see iff you can manage to hang onto the hippy granola crap you're trying to sell with the why can't we be friends song.

Nonsense. :mad:

Was that really necessary DJ? The sarcasm and insults? you all have such double standards. We can discuss anything one here, and people will act civil enough, but you don’t dare say anything against Jews or against the USA. Because the previous writer doesn’t seem to agree with your political views (and perceptions), you simply dismiss and belittle them? Not very mature, don’t you think?

If you think Bush and Al Queda are equal, pretty much no point in continuing, you have NO credibility....

Same here. You really so insecure about your own beliefs that you think its necessary to insult and attack someone’s character just because he has a different view than you? “you have NO credibility....” without even really knowing who you are talking about? Arrogance and assertiveness is fine, but to what point?

There are people who suffer real losses over there. We tend to forget about the average human beings who are just trying to live their own lives, according to the way their own culture and customs dictates. Not all Palestinians are evil fundamentalist suicide bombers out to kill as many Americans or Jews as they can, and not all Americans and Jews are power hungry land thieves out to make a quick buck from someone else’s expense.

emisosa

07-13-2006, 01:25 PM

ok, yes, you might be right. maybe i was assuming bush is a fundamentalist xstian without basis. But he's against abortion, against eutanacia, declares wars, etc, etc.. He sure acts like one... I don't care if he's on a church or if he's not.

I'm not trying to sell anything.. i just want people to think about things deeply than obviously already are... The hippy granola of the 70's would be great. It seems humans have made the same mistakes and learnt nothing from the 70s. The greatest minds came through in the 70s, people stood up and shouted against war. They took action and legends were assasinated: Martin L. King, Malcom X, John Lennon , and now, people treats war like a new action movie to watch with some popcorn.

I agree with you that the US and UK are not fundamentalists countries, but at least the US is run by someone who acts like one. And he was elected. TWICE!
I had the pleasure to meet some americans, and i think they are excellent people. (too bad the only ones i met were not republicans), but all in all, the onces i met are excellent. I even worked for a company there and my experience was great. I'd love to see more people in my country like them.
I used to think like this about americans in gral. until Bush got reelected. Now i know that at least 50% of them are idiots.
The "why can't we be friends thing", is just what i think is happening, and what we should all think about. While we are having this discussion from the comfort of our western homes, people is being killed, starves to death, or worst: exploited by already resourcefull countries, elected by us.
Talk is cheap and easy. The difference between terrorists and us is that we do nothing about our ideals. They are wrong and exagerated and act according to their social enviroment and religious belief, but at least they do something about it. I gotta give them that. you can't say they are cowards like you and i.

check out this (if you are to discuss Israel , you have to know this):
http://www.vanunu.org

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 01:27 PM

get it right, boy...

McVeigh said he was avenging Waco.

No Fundies there I guess :rolleyes:

my arguement? you mean the one you just made up? talk about strawman.

I didn't make an argument. I stated a fact.

I pointed out that Xtian Fundies have in fact blown things up, and I made no comparison of quantity or importance to "Islamofashionistas". You said they don't blow up train stations and I agreed with you stating what they prefer to blow up.

sounds to me like you are arguing with yourself...

boy.

I forgot to mention the '96 Olympics bombing right here in the ATL. Shame on me.

What ever happened to that "Anthrax Terrorist" anyway?

must have fallen down the memory hole.

Master Killer -

don't forget pardoning all the convicted felons involved on his way out the door.

too bad we can't find anyone with that kind of vision, indeed.

whatever happened to all those presidentially pardoned convicted felons anyway?

Oh that's right! They are in the current Bush Administration... the administration with more convicted felons than all previous administrations combined.

boy...pffft. How about you get it right. McVeigh stated he wanted to wage war on the FBI and the ATF because their actions in WACO were anti american. He was not a fundamentalist Christian, nor was he a CoLDS member or a Branch Davidian sect member and as far as anyone knows, the church he went to as a kid in New York was a regular run of the mill church. In short Crushing Fists, you are wrong and are using twisted versions of facts to support your views, which I also regard as incorrect.

and again, I already said, yes, they have been involved in the murders of doctors, the destruction of abortion clinics and so on. But is this really an organized mission of fundamentalist christians? Do they recruit suicide bombers in churches? Do they do suicide bombings at all? And you have to recognize organized murder vs small groups of haywire idiots blowing up **** bombs on government property. No, boy, I'm sorry boy, your "facts": as you like to think of them are so skewed it is apparent to anyone but yourself.

Anyway, in times of war, you have to pick a side and you do this based upon which ideological position sits with you in a majority sense even if not completely.

I do not agree with the tenets or tennants of fundamentalist islam and believe that it is a very real and apparent danger to everyone on the planet.

They are completely unreasonable. They cannot be negotiated with as they've shown us clearly over some 50+ years of repeated killings.

Even Buddhism says it is necessary to destroy evil. If there ever was a more shining example of evil that needs destroying, it's fundamentalist islam.

I don't have a problem with any religion. I do have a problem with sectarian violence and believe that to solve a problem, you must go to the root and make the correction there. Ergo, the destruction of fundamentalist Islam is important. It doesn't mean the destruction of islam. Anymore than getting rid of falwell and his ilk would damage protestantism in the west. :rolleyes:

get ya facts straight boy, before you start putting shoes in your mouth.

oh yeah, go Israel!

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 01:28 PM

It's also worthy of note to point out that the KKK do not burn stars of davids or ankhs on people's lawn.

Speaking of White Supremacists:

Neo-Nazis

The Mahmudiya case also coincides with reports that pressure to relax enlistment standards has opened the door to the U.S. military for white supremacists, “skinheads,” neo-Nazis and a variety of other misfits.

In a report entitled “A Few Bad Men,” the Southern Poverty Law Center, which has long kept an eye on violent right-wing extremists, said “military recruiters and base commanders, under intense pressure from the war in Iraq to fill the ranks, often look the other way” as white supremacists enter the military.

The report, written by David Holthouse, quoted Defense Department gang detective Scott Barfield as saying that neo-Nazis “stretch across all branches of service, they are linking up across branches once they’re inside, and they are hard-core. … We’ve got Aryan Nations graffiti in Baghdad. That’s a problem.”

Team Amerikkka

F@ck Yeah!

Even if you don't like the war... you have to support the trrops

They would never commit wartime atrocities like those other evil armies.

They wouldn' rape and murder 14 year old girls

or shoot unarmed civilians in their homes

or rape their own female comrades in arms

or...

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 01:34 PM

Speaking of White Supremacists:

Team Amerikkka

F@ck Yeah!

Even if you don't like the war... you have to support the trrops

They would never commit wartime atrocities like those other evil armies.

They wouldn' rape and murder 14 year old girls

or shoot unarmed civilians in their homes

or rape their own female comrades in arms

or...

So, you hate your country? You hate yourself too?
Listen dude, there's bad apples in every barrel.

lets hold up those 14 soldiers who broke the law, have been charged and will be looking at time for war crimes.

now lets look at say...hmmm, i dunno, the islamic rape camps? How about torture chambers in arab countries? What about beheadings, stonings, wife burnings? What about all the atrocious and ignorant behaviour that is not American? Not Canadian, Not British.

Geezuz, you need some frigging perspective, now why don't you go out and enjoy the air outside maybe take in a movie or go visit some friends in the country that you hate so much.

pffft. :rolleyes:

emisosa

07-13-2006, 01:42 PM

Check this story out:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5662853583740403796&q=wmd
and also check this one out:
http://www.vanunu.org

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 01:43 PM

Right now

The US is prosecuting soldiers accused of rape

While, at the same time, Al Queda maintains web sites proclaiming the murderers of thousands of innocents as heros

The US's sop isn't to recruit people to go into shopping plazas and mass transit locations and kill themselves so they can kill thousands of innocents at the same time

There's evidence that Bin Laden sent some of the 9/11 attackers off without them knowing they were even on a suicide mission

US war plans don't involved setting loose poison gas on subways, blowing up trains at rush hour, or hijacking civilian air craft

If you can't grasp these basic points, wow, that's sad

emisosa

07-13-2006, 01:47 PM

Was that really necessary DJ?
same here.. it wasn't DJ.

There are people who suffer real losses over there. We tend to forget about the average human beings who are just trying to live their own lives, according to the way their own culture and customs dictates. Not all Palestinians are evil fundamentalist suicide bombers out to kill as many Americans or Jews as they can, and not all Americans and Jews are power hungry land thieves out to make a quick buck from someone else’s expense.

This is the issue.. you are right on the dot.

p/s: Though 50% of Americans reelected Bush. (i couldn't help saying this)

ok, yes, maybe i was assuming bush is a fundamentalist xstian withuot much basis. But he's against abortion, against eutanacia, etc, etc.. He sure acts like one... I don't care if he's on a church or if he's not.

The hippy granola of the 70's would be great. It seems humans have made the same mistakes and learnt nothing from the 70s. The greatest minds came through in the 70s, people stood up and shouted against war.
Took action. Legends were assasinated: Martin L. King, Malcom X, John Lennon , and now, people treats war like a new action movie to watch with some popcorn.

I agree with you that the US and UK are not fundamentalists countries, but at least the US is run by someone who acts like one. And he was elected. TWICE!
I had the pleasure to meet some americans, and i think they are excellent people. (too bad the only ones i met were not republicans), but all in all, the onces i met are excellent. I even worked for a company there and my experience was great. I'd love to see more people in my country like them.
I used to think like this about americans in gral. until Bush got reelected. Now i know that at least 50% of them are idiots.
The "why can't we be friends thing", is just what i think is happening, and what we should all think about. While we are having this discussion from the comfort of our western homes, people is being killed, starves to death, and worst, exploited by already resourcefull countries, elected by you.
Talk is cheap and easy. The difference between terrorists and us is that we do nothing about our ideals. They are wrong and exagerated and act according to their social enviroment and religious belief, but at least they do something about it. I gotta give them that. you can't say they are cowards like you and i.

check out this (if you are to discuss Israel , you have to know this):
http://www.vanunu.org

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 01:52 PM

btw, it was not so long ago that I was all ready and pumped up to ride on the peace train.

The thing about war is that it really exposes a lot of crap. The crap that is exposed is the failings of fundamentalist Islam to deal with, in a civilized manner, the rest of the world.

Their way of getting recruits is to walk into mosques with videos of training camps and get half wet behind the ears teenagers up in arms about their dead bretheren.

teenagers and young men are incredibily easy to incite to action on someone elses command. It is when the person barking those commands is a murderous zealot maniac that it gets out of hand. Enter Usama bin Laden and his cult of whack jobs who have for far too long been allowed to continue to breath.

Bush is an idiot for not getting this guy with all the resources at his hands. Equally, the current admin is at fault for a plethora of ridiculous blunders and poorly managing what is happening and having incompetent goons running the show in many high level areas of the US government while slowly stealing more and more power for the executive branch to the exclusion of the representatives of the people. He's gotta go, no question about it.

At the same time, UBL, AlQ and the network that exists must be utterly destroyed by force because that's the only way it will no longer be a burden on the rest of the world.

If you see anyone preaching terrorist sympathy, It's your duty as a citizen of the free world to KTFO that fugger.

take a stand, the fence will only ride up your butt in the long run and someone will come kick you off of it eventually as opposed to help you down from it if you choose to remain there

Reggie1

07-13-2006, 01:52 PM

that comes from a country that believes it is always right.Where the Hell did you get that idea? You live in Canda--how exactly would you know that?

I'd say that out of the 40 people or so that I talk to on a regular basis, about 10 believe that the USA is always right in its decisions. All these people are Americans. But forget my anecdotal evidence. His approval ratings across the board are well below 50%.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

I love how people project their ****ed off views about America onto every American.

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 01:52 PM

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 02:03 PM

Still arguing with yourself I see...

But I must confess

You are right.

He was not associated with Fundies.

He was associated with White Power Survivalists...

None of whom have anything to do with Xtian Fundimentalism whatsoever.

my bad.

go israel?

where are they going?

oh that's right...

Gaza and Lebanon.

good luck with that.

well why don't you just cheer for the other guys? :rolleyes:

yeah go Israel, get er done and get it over with as quickly as you can with as few civ casualties as possible.

unfortunately for Israel, there will still be bombings in their cafes and schools and street corners and busses.

This is a country that has not been allowed to go about it's business from day one. Ad who are the antagonists? Islam, that's who. And why is teh Arab world antagonizing Israel? Fundamentalist Clerics filling their heads with twisted passages of the q'uran and telling the people that it is truth.

When your only education comes from angry churchmen, you really don't have much of an education at all. A major root of the prolem in the arab world is ignorance to secular humanistic knowledge and total dependency on teh advice or guidance of others in the community. Only problem is, those clerics are often times as poorly educated as the people they shill to.

What's worse is when they come to a western country to get an education and because of it, abuse that education and see the ignorance of their own people as a stepping stone to power that is monumental!

How many democratic nations in the arab world? 1? 2? Even then, they are the shakiest of the shaky models of democracy.

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 02:03 PM

So, you hate your country? You hate yourself too?
Listen dude, there's bad apples in every barrel.

lets hold up those 14 soldiers who broke the law, have been charged and will be looking at time for war crimes.

now lets look at say...hmmm, i dunno, the islamic rape camps? How about torture chambers in arab countries? What about beheadings, stonings, wife burnings? What about all the atrocious and ignorant behaviour that is not American? Not Canadian, Not British.

Geezuz, you need some frigging perspective, now why don't you go out and enjoy the air outside maybe take in a movie or go visit some friends in the country that you hate so much.

pffft. :rolleyes:

Listen Dude

I don't hate anything.

but I do love when people spout that garbage when anyone talks about things america does wrong.

Here's the thing dude...

Islamic Rape camps are evil

American Soldiers commiting rape is also evil

Arab Torture Chambers are evil.

American secret prisons with tortire chambers are also evil.

If you're going to get all moralistic at least try to have some consistancy.

Why is it evil for them to do it but excusable for us? Why do you get so offended when someone points out our wrongdoings but have such hatred for the wrongdoings of others? This moral duplicity reeks of Rush The Vulgar doublespeak.

I'm not the one with the hatred problem Dude...

you tell me to get some fresh air and see a movie and in the same breath scream "DESTROY THEM ALL!"

Dude...

take your own advice.

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 02:08 PM

The hate-Israel crowd needs some basic history lessons...

When the United Nations General Assembly voted in 1947 to partition Palestine into a Jewish State, an Arab State, and an internationally-administered enclave of Jerusalem, almost all of the West Bank was assigned to the Arab State. IE, the Palestinians were given a "home land"... what happened to it?

Not content to live in their own land peacefully, they brought in outside Arab nationals and conspired to attack Israel. In the ensuing 1948 Arab-Israel war, the territory was captured by the neighboring kingdom of Jordan. It was annexed by Jordan in 1950

IE, another Arab and Muslim state actually took the "home land" away from the Palestinians.

It wasn't until the Six-Day War of 1967 that Israel captured this territory, again, because the Arab/Muslim states were still seeking to drive Israel into the ocean

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 02:11 PM

Listen Dude

I don't hate anything.

but I do love when people spout that garbage when anyone talks about things america does wrong.

Here's the thing dude...

Islamic Rape camps are evil

American Soldiers commiting rape is also evil

Arab Torture Chambers are evil.

American secret prisons with tortire chambers are also evil.

If you're going to get all moralistic at least try to have some consistancy.

Why is it evil for them to do it but excusable for us? Why do you get so offended when someone points out our wrongdoings but have such hatred for the wrongdoings of others? This moral duplicity reeks of Rush The Vulgar doublespeak.

I'm not the one with the hatred problem Dude...

you tell me to get some fresh air and see a movie and in the same breath scream "DESTROY THEM ALL!"

Dude...

take your own advice.

um, where did i say destroy them all?

you equate fundamentalist islam with all of islam? you are incorrect again.
You would deny there is a problem with fundamentalist islam and then point to the gaffs of the US army because they have a few incidences of individuals doing bad things. By the way, those guys get charged and their ass sits in leavenworth by the time they're through their court martial.

you do have an issue with being able to see what is in front of you. You'll even wade in the minutia of what Im telling you to avoid the ugly truth that maybe what is being done is correct and although it's being fumbled due to a faulty administration, it was needed and called for and a long time coming.

A D-Day type push is probably what's required to clear the slate and allow for another way to sprout and take root.

I don't forgive those americans for the crimes they've commited. But I say the burden of overall guilt and suspicion is with fundamentalist islam. the US army can stand down, the others need to be taken down.

If you can't see that, then you haven't been understanding of the scope of the situation over the last...how long you been alive? It's been going on for my entire life.

emisosa

07-13-2006, 02:11 PM

Before continue this argument, YOU HAVE TO WATCH THIS about israel:
A Documentry on secret WMD in Israel

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2395002075547394719&q=wmd

Its an fuggin amazing correspondent story!!

WinterPalm

07-13-2006, 02:14 PM

I see America as truly believing it is right even despite all the evidence to the contrary. Heck, even the democrats won't challenge the whole 'even if you don't support the war you have to support the troops nonsense'.
I have spent time in America and fortunately I enjoyed the company of many people who were a little more open minded and I do see all the movies and television that influences and at the same time reflects the American ideals and way of life.

This goes back and forth and unfortunately the crazies and evildoers will probably get off again and the innocent people with petty opinions like all of us will be the ones who end up dead either by bombs or gunshots. Unless you are of the rich and very well protected, it seems insane to suggest we go to war because it is going to be the middle and lower class that bear the brunt of the death and cost for such stupidity. That is history and not some granola nonsense.
Fortunately both those of us who want a war and those of us who are against it are not right now going to have to dig trenches and kill other regular scared people. It's not entertainment, it's not a thrill ride, and it's not proving how tough you are...it's killing and being killed. To the trash with politics, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette and fortunately those making the omelettes get to decide who the eggs are.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/13072006/2/world-eu-blasts-israel-disproportionate-use-force-lebanon.html

There you go, the bozos in America and Canada are taking sides against the bozos in the EU and Russia who are taking another side. And the bozos in Israel and Lebanon are the ones getting blown up with I'm sure weapons made by any of the above countries.

And as each side blows up each other and kills innocents from the other side, they will talk as if they are innocent.:rolleyes:

It doesn't seem necessary to pick sides...I don't believe it the lesser of two or ten evils...I don't believe in fences...and I don't believe in black and white. If I was a young man living in Israel and seeing my friends get blown up...I'd fight. If I was a Palentenian kid and I saw my family blown up...I'd fight. But sitting here in NorthAmerica, I am not going to support the killing on either side.

I agree that terrorism and religious zealotry needs to stop as much as I agree that depersonalized capitalism needs to be stopped as the people wielding it crush and collapse entire nations for the sake of profit.

Does Israel have the right to defend itself? You bet. Does Lebanon or Palestine have the right to defend itself? You bet.

Ou Ji

07-13-2006, 02:15 PM

Unfortunately our choice was.... John Kerry.

Therein lies part of the problem. Two sides to the same coin. What's needed are more, honest, choices.

The other part of the problem is Kathleen Harris, and others of her ilk.

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 02:16 PM

One simple question for all you history buffs...

Why is Saudi Arabia our "Friend"?

If we're all pro-democracy and anti-totalitarian despot...

what makes them so warm and cozy?

No one has brought up the India-Pakistan situation yet either...

if you think we're looking at a nuclear war there, raise your hand.

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 02:17 PM

Israel's Nuclear and biological programs may have been secret 30 years ago, but they are pretty apparent to most.

Stuff that went on in the 70's while having some historical refernce and validity do not weigh much on what's going on now. yes, ramifications etc etc etc. But there comes a point when you have to shake the screen and start the etch a sketch again.

If I was Israel, I would have the biggest baddest most powerful bomb of death I could muster. I would have this because I am a small country surrounded by countries who do not recognize my right to exist and given teh opportunity would destroy me in an instant.

non-proliferation is one thing, but expecting Israel to not arm and defend themselves by their own volition is ridiculous. no demand? no supply. that's how it always works out.

IE: peace sells but who's buying? Not the arab world that's for sure.

p.s winterpalm, you ARE sitting on the fence. Your country and your fellow countrymen are involved in armed conflict with taliban and fundamentalist islamic jihadists from across the region. Your countrymen are dying and you have no opinion on that except that you don't support violence? You do have to pick a side. Maybe life hasn't given you that lesson yet, and when it does, trust me, it will be one of the rudest lessons in your life and it will smack you hard, but you DO have to make a choice about whether or not you have any say in how thois world turns. To be apathetic to the point of not doing anything at all is worse than supporting the troops. It is not stupid to support the troops to help them with whatever well wises and good luck you can, send cookies, send socks, talk with them regularly and assure them that they are ok and not monsters.

WinterPalm

07-13-2006, 02:19 PM

The road to peace is very tough and requires courage.
The road to war is an easy way out as is the resort to violence to solve disputes.

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 02:20 PM

emisosa

07-13-2006, 02:20 PM

ey, here's the stated in this forum "non fundamentalist" Bush that i quote again this forum "can't be compared to al-quaeda". This is the credibility you talked about, watch and think:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5662853583740403796&q=wmd

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 02:21 PM

back to some simple logic

Is Israel going to use one of it's nuclear warheads to blow up a train in Spain or Japan? Or even Indonesia or Somolia (both Islamic nations)?

obvious answer, NO

If Al Queda had a nuclear device, would they try and use it on INNOCENT civilians? Obvious answer, YES....

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 02:24 PM

Why don't our warplans involve these things?

Oh yeah, because we have far more effective and destructive means at our disposal.

You think if our roles were reversed we wouldn't use whatever weapons we had?

your "logic" (a stretch to call it that) is pathetic. Hey, every hear of this thing called the American revolution? You know, when a bunch of farmers took on the largest military empire in the world? Did we resort to attacking civilians then?

Not to mention, your entire argument just boiled down to condoning attacking complete innocents simply because the extremists don't have a more conventional army... .

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 02:25 PM

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 02:27 PM

The road to peace is very tough and requires courage.
The road to war is an easy way out as is the resort to violence to solve disputes.

this is fortune cookie crap in the face of reality.
no offense man, but that is out of context to the reality and the facts of what is going on.

war is not an easy answer. People genuinely struggle and rip their minds and souls apart in the decision it takes to send young people off to die for an idea, for a thought, for a way to make a better world for everyone.

to say war is the easy way is a blatant misunderstanding of the reality of conflict in the human condition. going to war is hard , sitting on our asses in apathetic who give a sh1t type peace is where the garbage really is.

hindsight doesn't count yet.

emisosa

07-13-2006, 02:29 PM

If Al Queda had a nuclear device, would they try and use it on INNOCENT civilians? Obvious answer, YES....

Ok, so lets nuk'em all!.. heheh that statement was funny.

So, the non proliferation of nuclear bombs treaties won't apply to those that *might* not use it agains innocents... good. great analysis dude. Way to go. Nice way to stop an arms race.
Question: When does a nuclear bomb kills only those "not inocents"? and who chooses who's inoccent and who's not.

GOSH! THINK!

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 02:31 PM

one last try then I have to go do some kung fu...

When you have an ARMY with BIG GUNS and BIG BOMBS you don't have to hijack civilian aircraft to turn them into makeshift weapons...

when your enemy's army outclasses you so utterly and completely that fighting them head on goes beyond the realm of absurd, what weapons are left to you?

If your enemy is wearing armor you poke out his eye.

Those without armies will fight in what ways they can.

If Al Qaida Had an Army like the US you think they would waste their time blowing up trains and hijacking planes?

simple logic my friend.

One uses what one has.

I don't "Hate America"

I'm glad I don't live in some Islamic sandpit.

but unlike some others I can at least see things from their point of view.

and by the way... that's a useful trait when trying to defeat an enemy.

Al Qaida played us for suckers and so far we have taken the bait.

GLW

07-13-2006, 02:32 PM

I LOVE reading youngsters' statements about the anti-war from before.

The previous person a page or two ago was saying the '70's"

Sorry, that all started in the 1960's. Those of us who were there sort of look at the first have of the 1970's as being the 1960's counted in hexadecimal...

1969, 196A, 196B, 196C, 196D, 196E, 196F---

The war ended BEFORE Nixon resigned - Then you had the REAL 1970's...You know, that era that gave us Saturday Night Fever, White Disco Suits, Studio 54, Cocaine in bathrooms in clubs, and a complete burn out on America because it ended with the Iranian hostage crisis and the election of Reagan / Bush.

The point being that things like Kent State, Woodstock, the Democratic convention riots, the Chicago 7, Abbie Hoffman, th Black Panthers...all happened in the 1960s and the rest of the anti-war stuff was simply the continuation of that stuff into Nixon's presidency.... and then of course you had Watergate...1973 - 1975.

emisosa

07-13-2006, 02:39 PM

Thanks for the history lesson. Though, i'm not an American, so at least i know some of that stuff about a country in a major foreign policy crisis. Do we know that much about Irak? Iran? Afghanistan, Palestine?? Or do we just call them terrorists cos we heard it on the news?

Mas Judt

07-13-2006, 02:42 PM

Crushing fist said:
and Mas -

are you saying we are no better than Soviet Russia or Communist China? That our actions are of the same deplorable nature as theirs?

You must really hate America.
__________________

No, I was pointing out the double standard that is often applied to the U.S.

The US has a lot going for it. We face many challenges, but I think the biggest ones are not so obvious to everyone, or as easy to understand.

Crushing Fist

07-13-2006, 02:47 PM

your "logic" (a stretch to call it that) is pathetic. Hey, every hear of this thing called the American revolution? You know, when a bunch of farmers took on the largest military empire in the world? Did we resort to attacking civilians then?

Not to mention, your entire argument just boiled down to condoning attacking complete innocents simply because the extremists don't have a more conventional army... .

good lord man...

do you listen to yourself?

How about the Civil War? We didn't attack any civilians in that conflict?

Oh wait...

How about Dresden?

Show me where I said I condoned anything...

Understanding and condoning are not the same, friend.

Now, if you could be so kind as to point out one single example of when an occupational army was successful against an indigenous guerrilla resistance, I'll take everything back and praise the good works of GWB.

How is it a stretch to say that an enemy will fight with whatever weapons it can?

How is that illogical?

It seems to be playing out that way in this thing we call "reality"

condone it or not, it's what is happening.

call it evil and bad all day...

it's still there.

oh and your logic is pathetic :p

Ou Ji

07-13-2006, 02:47 PM

There's evidence that Bin Laden sent some of the 9/11 attackers off without them knowing they were even on a suicide mission

Yeah, I was looking for that evidence the other day and seem to have misplaced it. Could you help me out and point out that evidence (other than questionable video
where 'OBL' admits it) that OBL sent the hijackers?

BTW, who exactly did he send again?

Thanks in advance.

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 02:55 PM

good lord man...

do you listen to yourself?

How about the Civil War? We didn't attack any civilians in that conflict?

Oh wait...

How about Dresden?

Show me where I said I condoned anything...

Understanding and condoning are not the same, friend.

Now, if you could be so kind as to point out one single example of when an occupational army was successful against an indigenous guerrilla resistance, I'll take everything back and praise the good works of GWB.

How is it a stretch to say that an enemy will fight with whatever weapons it can?

How is that illogical?

It seems to be playing out that way in this thing we call "reality"

condone it or not, it's what is happening.

call it evil and bad all day...

it's still there.

oh and your logic is pathetic :p

uh Dresden was Churchill's gaff not the USA.
AlQ doesn't have as much of an army as some would apparently like it to have because of continued efforts to put them down. Yes there are and were mistakes, but in the overall boiled down look. What country is more functional as a fair society? America or ...pick an arab nation. Where would you rather live and which laws would you rather have to abide by as a prereq to citizenship?

....?

I thought so.

mantis108

07-13-2006, 02:57 PM

p.s winterpalm, you ARE sitting on the fence. Your country and your fellow countrymen are involved in armed conflict with taliban and fundamentalist islamic jihadists from across the region. Your countrymen are dying and you have no opinion on that except that you don't support violence? You do have to pick a side. Maybe life hasn't given you that lesson yet, and when it does, trust me, it will be one of the rudest lessons in your life and it will smack you hard, but you DO have to make a choice about whether or not you have any say in how thois world turns. To be apathetic to the point of not doing anything at all is worse than supporting the troops. It is not stupid to support the troops to help them with whatever well wises and good luck you can, send cookies, send socks, talk with them regularly and assure them that they are ok and not monsters.

I am sorry, I have to say I am with Winterpalm on this one. I support our troops. Heck, I even have students from the military uphere. Why would I not support them? But I don't support the politicians who put them there in harm's way unnecessarily. Those crooks have not backbone and couldn't careless about anything but the business benefit that they could get from supporting the Bush administration. If they grab a gun and stand directly in the line of fire, I will be the first one standing next to them. Other than that they don't have my support to send our troops to do their dirty laundry.

You scratch my back and I scratch yours? Boy's club politic is for the boys not for wise and worldly grown ups. How many body bags (16 by far) do we need to bring home until someone wakes upto the fact that the Conservative is playing a dangerous and endless game of Afghan roulette? Is Canadian life that cheap? Is a Canadian solider's life wroth about $1500.00 USD only in case of friendly fire? Common man, I am not against our troops on the frontline providing logistics, medic care, and such things. But why should we pay the prize for indigestion while the sly host have the party that it couldn't handle in the first place. Don't start something that you can't finish. In the middle east a grudge is for all eternality. I think people should wake up to that fact. They fought and fought for thousands of years for what? Idealogy and desert lands? Life is to short for that kid of pettyness if you ask me. Canada need not to be the supercop state for the world. That's not our "destiny". There are lots of better lots than being the hengeman and hang with the big boys. Let the US and UK have their boys club. We should do our own thing.

Warm regards

Mantis108

emisosa

07-13-2006, 03:01 PM

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 03:01 PM

just as an aside a btw and a fwiw, I think the Bush admin has totally dropped teh ball and has been completely ineffective in this effort.

They gaffed in their lies to the UN and the world, they gaffed in abu ghraib, fhajula, bagdhad, the south, you name it and the US and it's allies have made egrigious acts an all too common thing while in country.

However, it has to be done, it needs to be done and it's high time it got done.

The arab world was at one point in time one of the most highly develkoped civilizations the earth had ever seen.

what happened to it that it has slowly dissolved into what it is now?
Huge gap in class. Filthy rich people funded by petro dollars, a thousand princes who are only princes because there isn't any unity of mind or philosophy in the country. They have in fact deteriorated into an ass backwards society on many levels and in many of the countries that want this global caliphate that the clerics are going on and on about with zeal.

I wonder how much money arab nations provide to palestine to ensure education and medical needs are adequatley met? probably not as much as the US, the UN and yes Israel. Im just guessing, but Im probably right.

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 03:04 PM

I am sorry, I have to say I am with Winterpalm on this one. I support our troops. Heck, I even have students from the military uphere. Why would I not support them? But I don't support the politicians who put them there in harm's way unnecessarily. Those crooks have not backbone and couldn't careless about anything but the business benefit that they could get from supporting the Bush administration. If they grab a gun and stand directly in the line of fire, I will be the first one standing next to them. Other than that they don't have my support to send our troops to do their dirty laundry.

You scratch my back and I scratch yours? Boy's club politic is for the boys not for wise and worldly grown ups. How many body bags (16 by far) do we need to bring home until someone wakes upto the fact that the Conservative is playing a dangerous and endless game of Afghan roulette? Is Canadian life that cheap? Is a Canadian solider's life wroth about $1500.00 USD only in case of friendly fire? Common man, I am not against our troops on the frontline providing logistics, medic care, and such things. But why should we pay the prize for indigestion while the sly host have the party that it couldn't handle in the first place. Don't start something that you can't finish. In the middle east a grudge is for all eternality. I think people should wake up to that fact. They fought and fought for thousands of years for what? Idealogy and desert lands? Life is to short for that kid of pettyness if you ask me. Canada need not to be the supercop state for the world. That's not our "destiny". There are lots of better lots than being the hengeman and hang with the big boys. Let the US and UK have their boys club. We should do our own thing.

Warm regards

Mantis108

guy, you'd be singing a different tune if the toronto cell had succeeded in their half baked plan.

not too mention, if many of the other plans had not been foiled on French, Canadian, American , British and other countries soil around teh world.

spain? mumbai? sudan? indonesia? you tell me where jihadists are NOT a problem and I'll tellyou where a free and educated country is located in the arab world.

emisosa

07-13-2006, 03:04 PM

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 03:12 PM

Please explain to me again (or at least tell me how you justify) that America and Israel can have nuclear waponery?
And also , do you know why this so called jihad is against the U.S.? how did this all started? i mean before 9/11. What do the terrorists clame? what does al quaeda wants? i have an idea, but please someone with good info post here.
Why did al quaeda destroyed WTC in the first place?

Justification? If there was a need for justification of nuclear weapons that would have come into play sometime around august 1945 if memory serves me.

secondly, the non proliferation treaties showed to not really have a lot of effect.

if your neighbour is aggressive towards you and attacks you with a bat, and you had a gun, would you pull it to get him to back off? You don't have to shoot it, you just have to show him that you are better armed and are willing to take him out if he wants to continue his aggressions.

there's your justification.

also, the countries that do have nuclear weapons are for the most part kept in check by each other with a general agreement to eventually decrease stockpiles. This can happen, but it would be stupid to sell your gun when your neighbour still has his bat and is still aggressive.

I honestly don't know what is escaping some of you here.

Peace and love is groovy, but it is not the overall reality of life on earth.

we here in the west have it so easy we are blind to the true hardship of being a human being. Empathize with these people for chrissakes. Their world is harsher and far more bitter than any small problem you or I could possibly face in the land of obesity and convenience.

KC Elbows

07-13-2006, 03:21 PM

Solution 1 to middle east problem: keep the middle east contentious, limit any one group's individual ability to create nukes, keep dealing with families more interested in making money for themselves than for infrastructure, rinse, lather, and repeat until the oil reserves are gone, then obliterate any nukes and quit military support for Israel in order to prevent them from holding undo influence in the region, in case a new lucrative use is found for tamarisks. Rename area "Africa's TFZ(Tsetse Free Zone)", move Angelina Jolie in to adopt starving kids to her heart's content.

Solution 2 to middle east problem: support and create stable governments in the region that build infrastructures for their people and can be trusted with nukes when it comes down to it. Somehow, in spite of the strife, and before the reserves run dry so they can retool their economy around something other than their nonexistant raw resources. Then use magic pixie dust to give Emannuel Lewis height, Fox News depth, and Adam Sandler's carreer added length.

Since our own founders did not recognize a government as legitimate whose governement and press can be directly influenced by foreign governments, Iraq does not really qualify as solution 2. Nor does wiping out democracy in Iran and placing the Shah in power. So obviously, we're with solution 1, probably the more realistic of the two.

It's not about who's nicer, it's about whether we're willing to deal with modern sovereign states in the region dictating their own price for oil without us being able to strongarm them. We're not, Britain wasn't either, thus Israel. Go Israel!

The reason that the scariness of the fundamentalists is an issue is because our leadership dropped the ball and screwed up, leaving us looking tied up in Iraq and opening it up to terrorists. The Afghani war with the USSR created a whole class of men who had no skill but war, who then formed the early core of the Iraq occupation, and now there's a whole new class of such people. No other skill, whatsoever, but civil war, who found fundamentalism an easy place to find work.

Bad mistake, and most people seem to think so now. We had a nice scam going, all we had to do was use up all the oil, and now we've got this mess.

The only rational choice is the Nissan Titan. This throws money at the Japanese, who can use this money to fund a series of baffling Japanese ads that will destroy North Korean leadership for years to come, while, at the same time, using all the oil.

Mas Judt

07-13-2006, 03:22 PM

"And also , do you know why this so called jihad is against the U.S.? how did this all started? i mean before 9/11. What do the terrorists clame? what does al quaeda wants? i have an idea, but please someone with good info post here.
Why did al quaeda destroyed WTC in the first place?"

The justification is in the Q'uran, the sharia, and the hadith. Islam has been waging war on the world from it's birth. God wants you to kill, convert, or subjugate your neighbor.

It's all right there in black and white on the pages, in history, and being taught in Mosques around the world. You can obfuscate, dissasemble, and lie (also advocated as a policy with non-beleivers) - but the evidence is overwhelming, and highly disturbing to those of us who would prefer to live and let live.

It is an insane world view that will force it's opponents to respond in kind, because they are given no other choice. It is very hard to live up the "liberal" (not the same meaning as todays liberal left) philosophies of the reformation and modern republicanism (democracy) when faced with committing mass murder or having it done to you.

The Islamic world presents an interesting challenge to a point of view that actually values human life, as oppossed to only the 'brotherhood'.

mantis108

07-13-2006, 03:28 PM

guy, you'd be singing a different tune if the toronto cell had succeeded in their half baked plan.

not too mention, if many of the other plans had not been foiled on French, Canadian, American , British and other countries soil around teh world.

spain? mumbai? sudan? indonesia? you tell me where jihadists are NOT a problem and I'll tellyou where a free and educated country is located in the arab world.

The timing of the discovery of the plot is just too convenient if you ask me. BTW, isn't that we had a "little" bit of help from our "good friend" AGAIN? As soon as the mission focus shifted we have that problem right a way. Doesn't that tell you something?

You are certainly entitled to believe the extremists are crazy enough to deal with an otherwise "traditionally peacaful and neutral" country like Canada. At least that's the reason why I moved to Canada and become a citizen in the first place. If I want to live amongst war mongers, I might as well move to the middlie east.

Now, you just reminded me. I think I am going to include a clause in my last will and testamony that states DO NOT AVENGE on my behalf in case I am killed in an terrorist attack. Do not turn the already tragric event into suffering for other innocent people. If I died in that situation, it is my lot and that's the way I have to go. I don't want anyone to use my death as an excuse to make war. I will have no part of that. Karma would take care of those criminals and I am sure the divine judgement will be fair. Now that's my faith. ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

Nick Forrer

07-13-2006, 03:51 PM

The hate-Israel crowd needs some basic history lessons

David, IMO your account is inaccurate or at least incomplete....

When the United Nations General Assembly voted in 1947 to partition Palestine into a Jewish State, an Arab State, and an internationally-administered enclave of Jerusalem, almost all of the West Bank was assigned to the Arab State. IE, the Palestinians were given a "home land"... what happened to it?

Not content to live in their own land peacefully, they brought in outside Arab nationals and conspired to attack Israel.

No.....After the GA partition recommendation in 1947, but before Israel had been established or recognised, fighting broke out between the Zionists and Palestinians. The Zionist militias, being the much better armed and organised of the two, managed to force (or as some might say ethnically cleanse) many palestinians from their homes (approx. 300,000 by May 1948 when Israel was formerly declared) and destroyed many Arab villages in the process. They also ended up in control of a geographical area that was NOT within the borders prescribed by the GA recommendation. So prima facie they (the Zionists) were in breach of the recommendation NOT the Palestinians

In the ensuing 1948 Arab-Israel war, the territory was captured by the neighboring kingdom of Jordan. It was annexed by Jordan in 1950
IE, another Arab and Muslim state actually took the "home land" away from the Palestinians.

Whilst its true that it was annexed by Jordan, the important point is that Jordan at the time was a British client state and was viewed as hostile by the other Arab states. Ben Gurion (1st Israeli Prime Minister) and Abdullah (Jordanian King) conspired with one another to partition the area between them. That there was such an agreement is confirmed by the publically available memoirs of the parties concerned. Abdullah even planned to take over Syria as well. It was partly in response to the threat of Jordan and partly in response to the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and the expansionist goals of the embryonic Israeli state that the Arab states attacked.

mantis108

07-13-2006, 03:58 PM

Solution 2 to middle east problem: support and create stable governments in the region that build infrastructures for their people and can be trusted with nukes when it comes down to it. Somehow, in spite of the strife, and before the reserves run dry so they can retool their economy around something other than their nonexistant raw resources. Then use magic pixie dust to give Emannuel Lewis height, Fox News depth, and Adam Sandler's carreer added length.

there are 2 problems to this appraoch:

1) as long as you have not converted to Islam, you will remain an infidel. It doesn't matter how close and how long a relationship you have worked on with them, they will eventually stab you in the back when the time comes. You have to realize they see that as their deflaut privilege simply because they are "practicing Muslims" to do so. This is almost a daily occurence both in Afghanistan and Iraq. My friends in the military who have toured in the Afghan region have related this kind of story. So are your prepare to be come a Muslim?

2) See the "democratic" election in Palestien. Their people have spoken. It's Hamas government that they want. So what are you going to do about it? Nothing, logically! The American model and standard are nothing but mere idealogy. It's not perfect and it can't transplant all over the world without some tweeking.

Mantis108

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 04:00 PM

Nick, if I am to understand you correctly, your assertion is that since Jordan had relations with Britain it was neither Arab nor Muslim?? :rolleyes:

Regardless of affiliations or alliances, or even "plots", you have an Arab state that was responsible for ceasing Palestinian "home land".....

The fact that poor, poorly educated Muslims in the Middle East are not educated in the facts and can't see that their own people are the ones oppressing them is a major part of the problem....

Oh, and before we get too far afield, let's re state a basic idea here, we aren't talking about Islam as the whole religion, nor Arab culture. Terrorists come from a select segment. Mainstream Islam, like mainstream other religions, are no more terrorists than any other segment of any other society

emisosa

07-13-2006, 04:01 PM

You gotta love this:

I think I am going to include a clause in my last will and testamony that states DO NOT AVENGE on my behalf in case I am killed

Lovely!

KC Elbows

07-13-2006, 04:05 PM

there are 2 problems to this appraoch:

1) as long as you have not converted to Islam, you will remain an infidel. It doesn't matter how close and how long a relationship you have worked on with them, they will eventually stab you in the back when the time comes. You have to realize they see that as their deflaut privilege simply because they are "practicing Muslims" to do so. This is almost a daily occurence both in Afghanistan and Iraq. My friends in the military who have toured in the Afghan region have related this kind of story. So are your prepare to be come a Muslim?

2) See the "democratic" election in Palestien. Their people have spoken. It's Hamas government that they want. So what are you going to do about it? Nothing, logically! The American model and standard are nothing but mere idealogy. It's not perfect and it can't transplant all over the world without some tweeking.

Mantis108

More importanly, there is no force that can extend Sandler's carreer, barring claiming early molestation by Lorne Michaels, which would result in Adam Sandler dissappearing forever.

Nick Forrer

07-13-2006, 04:19 PM

Nick, if I am to understand you correctly, your assertion is that since Jordan had relations with Britain it was neither Arab nor Muslim??

No that would be absurd although looking at my original post (which I have now edited for the sake of clarity) I could see why you might think I had said that from what was written. The point is rather that just because the citizens of two states share the same basic faith and ethnicity as one another it does not follow that their foreign policy will never be in conflict or indeed that one of them would not get assistance/encouragment from another state with its own regional agenda. For example- the Iran/Iraq war during the 80s, sunni vs shias; one side (sunnis/baathists) recieved arms (WMD's) from the west because of the wests own regional agenda.

Regardless of affiliations or alliances, or even "plots", you have an Arab state that was responsible for ceasing Palestinian "home land".....

Yes but with the approval and assistance of the Isrealis. See Ben Gurion's memoirs for the proof of this.

I dont want to argue...I just want to be accurate. In any event, Israel is not going anywhere and the middle east is going to have to accept its presence as I think most rational people here would accept. All that is up for argument are the terms of that presence.

David Jamieson

07-13-2006, 04:24 PM

m108-

speculation and conjecture don't hold much water really.

the facts are that there were 17 men and boys who were apparently willing to cause damage in the name of jihad on canadian soil.

the level of involvement and the innocence of each until tried and found guilty has been stressed over and over again.

We relinquished our role of neutrality in the matter some years ago when we entered afghanistan in a role of soldier and not peacekeeper.

now we're in as deep as anyone else and in my opinion a concerted effort by all nations is in order to get rid of this aspect once and for all.

911 was far from the beginning of the jihadist movement and it's spread around the world. 911 should only be a marker as one of yet another attacks by jihadists on innocents. Or maybe it was a scam. There are indeed many questions about that particular day and what really happened, I agree, something is amiss.

However, it doesn't discount bali, or the first wtc bombing, or sudan or somalia or any of hundreds of murders commited in the name of jihad by AQ and it's ilk.

At least, a national army, wearing colours isn't some shadowy cabal of cowards killing innocents. Yes, in war innocent people die, many of us here has likely lost a grandparent in some war, or a family member, or a friend or is less than 6 degrees of seperation from that.

I don't have any issues whatsoever anymore with the use of force with extreme prejudice in regards to AlQ or any of those who would choose to side with them.

If you don't take a side, you really shouldn't have any comments on the matter, by not taking a side, you are simply not giving a crap about anything but yourself in my opinion. no offense, but I regard this as an error in thinking just as you may regard my own stance as same.

might does not make right. the war in iraq is in many ways a huge error on the part of the bush admin, the patriot act is stripping civil liberties faster than charo cha cha chas on the ed sullivan show.

Iraq and it's blunders do not negate the facts that AQ is alive and well and planning your annihilation should they get the opportunity to provide it to you.

once again. Go Israel, kick some ass.

Ou Ji

07-13-2006, 05:26 PM

In case anyone is interested: http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

Water Dragon

07-13-2006, 06:01 PM

I would just like to state the obvious solution to this dilemma; marijuana and women's panties. Put some silk panties on every one over there and puff some blunts into them and nobody will want to fight anymore.

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 06:05 PM

Are you gonna quote Mein Kampf also?

a quick google search and you find;

"british academic anti-semitism

Professor Mona Baker of the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology doesn’t like Israel. In fact, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that she hates Israel. She hates Israel so much that she decided to fire two scholars from the boards of her academic journals—simply because they are Israeli.

Mona Baker, a professor at the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology (UMIST), admitted yesterday that she had dismissed Dr Miriam Shlesinger and Prof Gideon Toury because of their nationality.

Despite a storm of complaints raised by her action, Prof Baker stood by her decision, telling The Telegraph: "I deplore the Israeli state.

And Baker isn’t just unrepentant; she’s belligerent.

She said "Many people in Europe have signed a boycott against Israel. Israel has gone beyond just war crimes.

---------

lkfmdc

07-13-2006, 06:08 PM

http://hatemongersquarterly.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_hatemongersquarterly_archive.html

The Willow Sword

07-13-2006, 08:03 PM

The Original Question of this thread was "HAS WWIII BEGUN"?

ANSWER: NO.

:) We now return you to your regularly scheduled reality.

TWS

WinterPalm

07-13-2006, 10:16 PM

this is fortune cookie crap in the face of reality.
no offense man, but that is out of context to the reality and the facts of what is going on.

war is not an easy answer. People genuinely struggle and rip their minds and souls apart in the decision it takes to send young people off to die for an idea, for a thought, for a way to make a better world for everyone.

to say war is the easy way is a blatant misunderstanding of the reality of conflict in the human condition. going to war is hard , sitting on our asses in apathetic who give a sh1t type peace is where the garbage really is.

hindsight doesn't count yet.

This has nothing to do with fortune cookies. Neither side is innocent of wrongdoing and so far, and to the end, it will be civilians that bear the brunt of death and cost.

Yeah, it must be soooo hard to send young impressionable minds to their deaths...come on!

Fortunately we are all sitting on our hinds because this isn't going to involve any of us in a personal way. We sit and watch and that is about it. The cycle of violence will continue.
Kung Fu teaches us to subdue violence but it also teaches us to subdue the inner violence and deciet, lies, trickery, etc that we use in our day to day lives to try and take advantage of people. Yes, there is a time to use violence in our daily lives, but to say that we need to do it on a constant basis in order to function, well, that is not the proper path.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: I hope that as little death comes to those dragged into this conflict and I hope it ends very soon and results in a reconsideration of the issues at hand.

WinterPalm

07-13-2006, 10:30 PM

p.s winterpalm, you ARE sitting on the fence. Your country and your fellow countrymen are involved in armed conflict with taliban and fundamentalist islamic jihadists from across the region. Your countrymen are dying and you have no opinion on that except that you don't support violence? You do have to pick a side. Maybe life hasn't given you that lesson yet, and when it does, trust me, it will be one of the rudest lessons in your life and it will smack you hard, but you DO have to make a choice about whether or not you have any say in how thois world turns. To be apathetic to the point of not doing anything at all is worse than supporting the troops. It is not stupid to support the troops to help them with whatever well wises and good luck you can, send cookies, send socks, talk with them regularly and assure them that they are ok and not monsters.

I enjoy the country I live in and I do have friends fighting in Afghanistan. And no I do not have to pick a side in the conflict of people that could care less about me. This is not about some silly nationalistic beliefs or whatever you are on about. And when I communicate with my friend in Afghanistan do you know what I say to him? I tell him that the war is stupid and that he is stupid for going because I know that he knows better. And then we argue and laugh a bit and that is about it.

I have taken a side but unfotunately it is not one that is taking up arms. And I am making a choice to be the change I wish to see in the world. I deplore violence and corruption, deceit, lies, treachery, backstabbing, and all the other things that these wars represent. This isn't about apathy at all. I am not emotionally charged to see Israel killing civilians as you appear to be. I am not emotionally charged to see Hezbelloa killing civilians. I AM charged, very much so, to see the mistakes of men lead to the death of others and how violence drives so many people. I will not partake in any violence and there is no fence just like there is no left wing and right wing. I'm marching straight through in my beliefs and I like them just fine. I can still have an opinion that differs in my country and that is something I will fight for. My involvement is in not supporting violence and death but supporting life...treating others well. I'm no superhero and I am no solider, but I like to think that with enough effort I am a nice guy.

You seem to think that something is going to smack me and I very much hope that you never have to experience what I am against and that it doesn't take out everybody you love because your country or city was the target of some high society argument gone wrong.

Now that my gloves are on and you've gone sage, you can keep bringing the life lessons...I've got ammunition...do you?

Ben Gash

07-14-2006, 02:56 AM

You know, when a bunch of farmers took on the largest military empire in the world? Did we resort to attacking civilians then?

Umm, yes. The American war of independance saw horrifying massacres of civilians by the revolutionary side, especially against enclaves of free blacks.

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 05:13 AM

I appreciatethe sentiments of peace. The idea that it is easy to send peoiple to war is ....not exactly what I would call sensible.

Politicians, soldiers, army brass, etc etc. These are people too. Human beings. I believe it would be a very difficult decision to send people to war.

When making a decision to go to war, you are making a decision to put it on the line for values, ideals, security, you name it. This is not a small decision because if you lose, you lose everything.

Frankly I'm a bit surprised that people would think it is easy to send people off to die for a cause. Would you send people to war for a cause? Could you send them?
Would you maintain diplomacy all the way to the point where the knife is entering your body? Would you really? Or would you act? And if you saw it happening to someone else, would you support them, or think them stupid and rash for defending themselves if they chose to do so?

This situation has been going on for years. Resolutions aren't forthcoming and Israel isn't the demon here by a long shot.

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 05:38 AM

Also, It is an error to blame israel and demonize Israel over what is happening. THey have had to endure their neighbours lobbing explosives into their place for quite some time, bus bombings, street bombings, cafe bombings, rocket attacks, kidnappings, ransom killings etc etc etc.

What about the thousands of Israeli innocents who went to their deaths and all the wanted was a danish and a coffe? Who speaks for them and why demonize them for taking action.

Just think for one minute. You hjave a neighbour who takes potshots into your yard. You ask him to stop, he doesn't. Next day he pops out a window on yoru car with his gun. You go over to confront him and he threatens you, you back off on teh advice of your friends and hope it chills. Next day your dog is shot and so on and so on it goes.

Do you act? or do you close your eyes to it?

Crushing Fist

07-14-2006, 05:50 AM

Do you act? or do you close your eyes to it?

well obviously...

you bulldoze his house while he is still in it...

if you are Israel I mean.

point is... there are no saints on either side.

How was Sharon morally superior to Arafat?

Why is it ok to kill children with laser-guided bombs but not bombs strapped to your chest?

how is one morally better than the other.

they are the same.

and now my response to the question of the day...

"Has WWIII begun?"

the answer = NO.

they like to call it WWIV, claiming the cold war was #3.

I think they just want to make Einstein wrong.

but yes, whatever you call it, it is well on it way.

emisosa

07-14-2006, 09:30 AM

I think this sums it up:

Why is it ok to kill children with laser-guided bombs but not bombs strapped to your chest?

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 09:36 AM

I think this sums it up:

yes it will sum it up as an easy answer.

But in reality, it is tautology and makes no sense.

are laser guided bombs targeted on baby heat waves? Do they target babies?
Is teh focus of Israel on kiling Innocents?

Or is it the focus of al aqsa, hama, hezbollah and Al Q to kill innocents.

If you can't see the difference then it's because you can't deal with the reality of what's going on. So yeah, let it sum that up for you and be comfortable in the knowledge that you are wrong.

ridiculous tautological sophist crap is what that is.

lkfmdc

07-14-2006, 09:40 AM

you kids need to get out more, read some respectable journalism. Read the Associated Press' coverage of the event

According to AP, before the Israeli military began shelling, it dropped leaflets in Hezbollah areas warning when and where they were going to bomb and telling those not affiliate with Hezbollah they should leave the area

I didn't see Al Queda warning innocent civilians that they were going to attack the WTC or the trains in Spain...

The Union of Arab Nations, read that again, the Union of ARAB NATIONS has condemed Hezbollah and their supporter states (Syria and Iran) for instigating the violence, IE other Arab nations are putting the blame squarely on Hezbollah, not Israel

Sifu Darkfist

07-14-2006, 09:48 AM

lkfmdc

07-14-2006, 09:51 AM

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=060714&cat=news&st=newsd8irmeeg0&src=ap

Israel Blasts Beirut Airport for 2nd Day
Updated 5:42 AM ET July 14, 2006

By SAM F. GHATTAS

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - Israeli warplanes punished the Lebanese capital on Friday, blasting the airport for a second day, knocking down a bridge, igniting fuel storage tanks and cutting the main highway to Syria. Hezbollah fired more rockets at Israeli towns across the border.

Police said three people were killed and 55 wounded in the airstrikes, raising the death toll to 60 on the third day of fighting.

Israel's target was Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed militant Shiite faction which has a free hand in southern Lebanon and also holds seats in parliament. Hezbollah began the current conflict Wednesday with a cross-border raid that captured two of Israel's soldiers.

Israel said it was determined to beat Hezbollah back and deny the militant fighters positions they have held along the border since 2000.

On Thursday Israel unleashed a furious military campaign on the Lebanon's main airport, highways, militarys and other targets Thursday, retaliating for scores of Hezbollah guerrilla rockets that rained down on Israel and reached as far as Haifa, its third-largest city, for the first time.

The sudden burst of violence sending shock waves through a region already traumatized by Iraq and the ongoing battles in the Gaza Strip between Israel and Hamas. It shattered the relative calm in Lebanon that followed Israel's pullout from its occupied zone in south Lebanon in 2000 and the withdrawal of Syrian forces last year.

Fears mounted among Arab and European governments that violence in Lebanon could spiral out of control.

The Lebanese government, caught in the middle, pleaded for a cease-fire. The government has no control over Hezbollah but has long resisted international pressure to disarm the group. Any attempt to disarm Hezbollah by force could lead to sectarian conflict.

Israeli warplanes stepped up the pressure Friday. The Israeli army said strikes in and around Beirut targeted a fuel tank, two bridges, a highway linking Beirut to the Syrian capital and the southern suburbs where Hezbollah has its political headquarters.

Hezbollah fired more rockets at northern Israel, including 10 at the town of Safed, nine miles from the border, the Israeli military said. There were no casualties. The attacks brought to 150 the number of rockets Hezbollah had fired at Israel in last 48 hours.

Anti-aircraft fire echoed as Israel jets roared over the Lebanese capital. It was not immediately clear who was firing at the planes as both the Lebanese army and Hezbollah have anti-aircraft artillery.

The bombs and missiles knocked down a bridge and badly damaged another. They sheared off the facades of buildings, sending walls and balconies crashing onto parked cars.

Lebanese television stations said the jets damaged a plaza where Hezbollah leaders hold rallies. The TV footage showed broken glass and debris covering streets and a young man with bloodied face and chest walking from a damaged apartment.

Friday morning's violence came hours after Israel dropped leaflets in the area warning residents to avoid areas where Hezbollah operates.

Israeli analysts warned that Syria, which supports Hezbollah and plays host to Hamas' political leader Khaled Mashaal, could be Israel's next target.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said any Israeli attack against Syria would be an aggression on the whole Islamic world and warned of a harsh reaction, the official Iranian news agency reported Friday.

The agency said Ahmadinejad made the comments in a telephone call to Syrian President Bashar Assad.

Israel's offensive was among its heaviest in Lebanon since it invaded the neighboring country and occupied its capital 24 years ago. Two days of Israeli bombings killed 48 Lebanese and two Kuwaitis and wounded 103. Two Israeli civilians and eight Israeli soldiers have also been killed, the military's highest death toll in four years.

With Beirut's international airport closed after Israeli bombs ripped apart its runway, many tourists were trapped while others drove over the mountains to Syria _ though Israeli warplanes struck the highway linking Beirut to the Syrian capital of Damascus early Friday, closing the country's main artery and further isolating Lebanon from the outside world.

Beirut residents stayed indoors, leaving the streets of the capital largely empty. Others packed supermarkets to stock up on goods. Long lines formed on gas stations, with many quickly running out of gas.

Israel said its attacks were to prevent the movement of the captured soldiers and hamper Hezbollah's military capacity. It said it had information Hezbollah was trying to take the two soldiers to its ally, Iran _ an allegation denied by the Iranian Foreign Ministry.

Israel launched an offensive in Gaza against Hamas, whose fighters are holding another Israeli soldier captured two weeks ago.

Early Friday, Israeli aircraft struck targets in several parts of Gaza and a Palestinian was killed when an Israeli tank shell struck his truck, officials said. There were no reports of injury in the air raids, which damaged a main road and offices and training camps of militants.

At the United Nations, the United States blocked an Arab-backed resolution that would have demanded Israel halt its military offensive in the Gaza Strip, the first U.N. Security Council veto in nearly two years.

The shockwaves from the fighting on two fronts began to be felt as oil prices surged to above $78 a barrel in world markets, also agitated by the threat of supply disruptions in the Middle East and beyond.

President Bush, speaking of the Lebanon offensive, backed Israel's right to defend itself and denounced Hezbollah as "a group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace."

But he also expressed worries the Israeli assault could cause the fall of Lebanon's anti-Syrian government. "We're concerned about the fragile democracy in Lebanon," Bush said in Germany.

The European Union took a harsher tone, criticizing Israel for using what it called "disproportionate" force. EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana said he was planning a peace mission.

The Arab League called an emergency meeting of foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday, and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas warned that Israel's Lebanon offensive "is raising our fears of a new regional war."

Egypt launched a diplomatic bid to resolve the crisis, amid apparent frustration among moderate Arab nations that Hezbollah _ and by implication its top ally Syria _ had started the fight with Israel.

Saudi Arabia, the Arab world's political heavyweight and economic powerhouse, accused Hezbollah guerrillas _ without naming them _ of "uncalculated adventures" that precipitated the latest Middle East crisis.

"The kingdom sees that it is time for those elements to alone shoulder the full responsibility for this irresponsible behavior and that the burden of ending the crisis falls on them alone," according to a Saudi official quoted by the Saudi Press Agency.

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 09:55 AM

With all do respect to the individuals that are blooded from those regions, i feel that the middle east is but a small and insignificant part of the world on the grand scale and do not constitute a World War. I am sorry if that upsets the warm blood of the mediteranian but that is just how it is.

I am Half Lebanese and sometimes feel delusions of granduer as well. But truth be known the only effect this miniscule part of the worlds population can have is small action or the use of wmd in small instances leading to the eventual vaporization of the region. The biggest problem to America is being sidetracked from the big game. The one coming in Asia where the significant portion of the population does reside.

As long as we stupid Americans rely on foreign oil and put such a high value on archaic forms of energy we will be drawn back into the sandbox (which without oil or the Mediternanian would be uninhabited).

America needs to Mobilize about 5 million troops and equip them with the most powerful weapons in the world just to emphasize the fact that we still can. Then in the instance of the real "big game" we will be able to handle little Kimmy from NK and any other would be trouble makers.

Also as i have said befor the natural balance in Asia is compromised with a weak Japan Period... end of story.

most of americas oil comes from canada. Yep its foreign alright....sort of.
and I think you are wrong to think taht what is happening there has no effect in your own country.

It does.

In my country, we have al q operatives who scout the mosques of montreal and toronto in teh hopes of recruiting young men to the cause of terror.

In spain, the subways were bombed.

In mumbai teh subways were bombed.

In the sudan, embvassies were bombed.

In iraq, relief workers from my country are kidnapped.

In Iran, a canadian press member was executed.

In Indonesia, many tourists were killed in the nightclub bombing.

Many many many more examples of the heinous criminal terrorist actions of Hezbollah, Hammas, AlQ, Al Aqsa, the taliban and all of those groups and around the world.

If you think these guys can't effect you, you are wrong, they can and if they are not put down teh will effect you sooner than you think.

we can talk all day about the foibles, gaffs and blunders of teh US and Israel and teh west in general, but where would you rather be? You don't livce in Lebanon now, were you born there? Why are you not there? Why did your folks leave? Very simple questions.

It does effect the rest of us. Failure to complete the task will only mean more years of crap for all of us. Difficulty traveling, risk of being killed while traveling, etc etc etc.

The Willow Sword

07-14-2006, 09:55 AM

According to AP, before the Israeli military began shelling, it dropped leaflets in Hezbollah areas warning when and where they were going to bomb and telling those not affiliate with Hezbollah they should leave the area

Oh how "Decent" of them to do that:rolleyes:

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 10:01 AM

Oh how "Decent" of them to do that:rolleyes:

What would you have them do? I think it's unheard of. The US didn't do that for Bhagdad. Just bombs away.

and you know what? many of the people left.
I heard one commentary on the cbc from a lebanese woman who said that they were used to this so only mostly tourists were leaving and all I could think of was who the fug vacations in Beirut? But I could also see from teh film that she was incorrect, many lebanese civs split when the Israelis told them if they didn't want to get caught in the crossfire to get the heck outta dodge.

Do you think itr's "decent" of Hezbollah to hide in crowds of innocents? Do you think they're decent for using their own countrymen as nothing more than meat shields? how about when they kill their own who speak against them? Is that Hezbollahs decency overshadowing Israels?

Israel did the right thing. Is doing the right thing and should continue until Hezbollah is cruhed. Let me tell you, there are zero innocent people who are members of Hezbollah.

Crushing Fist

07-14-2006, 10:01 AM

BlueTravesty

07-14-2006, 10:02 AM

well obviously...

you bulldoze his house while he is still in it...

if you are Israel I mean.

Why goodness, that would be wrong! What you do is call the Homeowners Association (The U.N.) and tell them about all that is happening, and show them the photos of your windows, your dog, etc.

That way the Homeowners Association can look at it, and say "Well this is all very bad, we'll investigate further." You call week after week to check on the investigation, and you still get the same response. Months pass by. After all, the Homeowners Association is busy with important things, like parking illegally and punching an old lady in the face while claiming "Homeowner Immunity."

At this point, more damage has been brought against you. Your wife was shot by a stray bullet, and your son is too scared to go outside of his room anymore. You have another neighbor who is pretty good friends with you (the U.S.), and offers to help you out.

"Great, so you're gonna come with me to confront him?" you say.

"Errrr, no. But here's a gun. Good luck with that!" your other neighbor replies.

So after much agonizing and soul-searching, you hold the gun, tempted to fire back at your neighbor, but you know the possible consequences. You hear a crash, and a thud. Your son is laying dead on the floor. Unable to take it, you fire back, and you accidentally kill your neighbor's wife. Your neighbor immediately calls the Homeowners Association. HIS son straps a bomb to his chest and blows up your car in order to avenge his mother.

At this point the Homeowners Association wants to take the title to your house, saying "You know, we were just going to help you out with your neighbor, but you just COULDN'T WAIT could you?" Then the Homeowners Association chastises the neighbor who gave you the gun, and claims that since you acted without them, they cannot help you. Nothing is done or said to the neighbor who is still taking potshots at you.

Sifu Darkfist

07-14-2006, 10:04 AM

[/QUOTE]
Many many many more examples of the heinous criminal terrorist actions of Hezbollah, Hammas, AlQ, Al Aqsa, the taliban and all of those groups and around the world.

If you think these guys can't effect you, you are wrong, they can and if they are not put down teh will effect you sooner than you think.

we can talk all day about the foibles, gaffs and blunders of teh US and Israel and teh west in general, but where would you rather be? You don't livce in Lebanon now, were you born there? Why are you not there? Why did your folks leave? Very simple questions.

It does effect the rest of us. Failure to complete the task will only mean more years of crap for all of us. Difficulty traveling, risk of being killed while traveling, etc etc etc.[/QUOTE]

David no disrespect meant but i am not worried about my direct future and i am not thinking they have no effect at all.
I am saying World War three is not a title to spread lightly.
almost 80 million people died in WW2 and the miniscule effect these killers have pails in comparison to what will happen if hostilities erupt on the Korean peninsula

However if you look closer at my post i am calling for Mass mobilization of U S capabilities to stop this noise once and for all.

You see people forget that the Unites states not only has the most powerfull weapons in the world but we are also a nation of 300,000,000 more than enough to bring 5 or ten million to arms.

I Was in the Infantry I know the motivation of our troops and it is not fair to underestimate them by speaking of stupid managment in minor actions (which no matter how you slice Iraq it is a minor action period)

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 10:04 AM

I like how no one has bothered to respond to any direct questions I ask...

I guess its easier to just shout everyone down who doesn't agree with you than it is to have an actual conversation.

Darkfist -

if you think the "Middle East" is not strategically important you may want to think again.

your question regarding the difference between using laser guided bombs and vest bombs to kill babies was answered. Actually, in my opinion, I think that the question is silly and didn't really deserve an answer because of that, but I provided you with one anyway and it has to do with Intent.

Who intends to do what. If you thought about that for even just 60 seconds...

nevermind, you're probably just playing devils advocate for lack of anything better to do.

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 10:10 AM

The shere amount of deaths is not what to measure a world war on. The only way to meausre it is by participants involved and so far, all participants, both passive and active are around the world.

the usa, britain, canada, italy, spain, iraq, jordan, syria, iran, israel, australia and of course bushes weird ass coallition of the willing.

This constitutes ww3 despite the lack of direct involvement of other nations, who are involved in a proxy nature anyway.

when people die half a world a way, for the cause of a man in a cave somewhere in the kush or in afghanistan or wherever he is, then that is tantamount to a global war. Casualities aren't mounting as quickly and attacks aren't anywear near as sweeping or haphazard as those used in the previous world wars, but nevertheless there is involvment in it all on a global scale.

The Willow Sword

07-14-2006, 10:14 AM

Actually we did warn baghdad when we were going to start bombing. We just didnt fly over and drop leaflets.

Crushing Fist

07-14-2006, 10:14 AM

yes it will sum it up as an easy answer.

But in reality, it is tautology and makes no sense.

are laser guided bombs targeted on baby heat waves? Do they target babies?
Is teh focus of Israel on kiling Innocents?

Or is it the focus of al aqsa, hama, hezbollah and Al Q to kill innocents.

If you can't see the difference then it's because you can't deal with the reality of what's going on. So yeah, let it sum that up for you and be comfortable in the knowledge that you are wrong.

ridiculous tautological sophist crap is what that is.

incorrect.

the only reason for repetition here is your avoidance of answering simple questions.

instead you go on and on about "focus" and "intent"

lets make this easier for you:

Which side has killed more innocent people?

Forget all this "intent" garbage

By your arguement it is ok to kill innocents as long as that's not your "focus"

those deaths are "collateral damage" right?

but if you do it on purpose that's SO different.

When I say that the US or Israel might not be perfect angels you seem to hear "The Terrorists are Wonderful human beings"

You seem to be a bit Hysterical, and I understand its an emotionally charged issue.

Seriously though, if you think what's happened up to now is bad... just wait for it.

This war is going to be quite nasty indeed.

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 10:19 AM

incorrect.

the only reason for repetition here is your avoidance of answering simple questions.

instead you go on and on about "focus" and "intent"

lets make this easier for you:

Which side has killed more innocent people?

Forget all this "intent" garbage

By your arguement it is ok to kill innocents as long as that's not your "focus"

those deaths are "collateral damage" right?

but if you do it on purpose that's SO different.

When I say that the US or Israel might not be perfect angels you seem to hear "The Terrorists are Wonderful human beings"

You seem to be a bit Hysterical, and I understand its an emotionally charged issue.

Seriously though, if you think what's happened up to now is bad... just wait for it.

This war is going to be quite nasty indeed.

so, what is the score then crushing fist? who has killed more people?
you have definitive numbers and body counts?

Intent is everything. If you haven't learned that yet, then it is something that you will learn eventually..maybe. Intention IS everything.

WinterPalm

07-14-2006, 10:21 AM

The circumstances in the Middle East are not about one side being innocent while the other attacks it. Far from it. This runs deeper. And I have a feeling that if the countries against Israel had the cash they would fight the same PR campaign as Israel is.

What if that guy putting potholes in your yard knows that you are pushing his kids around in school? What if his wife told him you were making lewd comments at her? What if he saw you beat someone up for no reason and then threaten you? Would you not put that gun to him? What if you ran over his dog and laughed? You don't think yoru are going to say 'an eye for an eye'?

In global politics, and in the large scale workings of societies, no country is innocent in these dealings...I should say the leaders because I know Isreaelis, Arabs, Americans, Brits, etc, and they are all nice people. Just led by maniacs and lunatics that spend billions on nationalistic fervor and warmachines. Over here and in the rich nations where the gap is growing, we have the ability to turn a blind eye to it because we don't see the savagery everyday except on the television. Over there, their lives are savagery. These are people that have been put into a world so removed from where they came from and they are trying to adapt and survive when in fact, in remains to the advantage of the rich nations for these poor countries to remain so poor and desolate. Terrorism brings in big business... much more so than peace. Ever wonder why the US is ALWAYS at war with one country or another?

What is the difference if you kill an Israeli child or a Lebanese child?

Well our intent was to get Hezbolla out of Israel and to send a clear message that we will not do business with them. Of course their cheap labour is welcomed if they can pass through our fences.

Well, our intent was to scare and maim and kill the public because they are the ones supporting the military state of Israel and constantly sending rockets into our refugee camps looking for one or two baddies. In essence we don't have a purpose in life but to see this conflict continue.

It's a continuing cycle of violence and I hope it ends soon.
And remember that both sides are more likely than not using a G8 nation weapon. This is like the dividing of the world in the 1800's...the poor and peripheral nations are still little pawns and Israel barely qualifies for anything more than just a puppet nation.

If they really wanted Osama Bin Ladin they would have stopped all communications and contracts with the Bin Ladin Group.

What if several African nations wanted to invade the US because they harbour the known terrorist group the KKK?
Or what if Japan wanted to invade the US and carpet bomb the tobacco fields because it is a lethal product much like the US bombs Columbia to get rid of the cocaine?

Circles of double standards...

KC Elbows

07-14-2006, 10:24 AM

Locals fighting foreign interests in the middle east is not a problem that is gonna get solved unless the oil runs out, or the foreign interests lose.

Since we're a foreign interest, the idea of getting rid of resistance in the region is pure fantasy.

We kill the leaders, leave the rest to scatter, and use the oil, period. Which is what we have been doing. Maybe the next batch won't be fundamentalist. They'll still try to blow people up.

What form of war is more moral is of little importance, moral arguments by democracies that worship liberty, but have no means or motivation to spread it to others, on foreign policy issues, will tend to prove fairly tenuous, so the moral angle tends to be pretty, but not as useful as we'd like. Sure, the enemy has abyssmal views on women, education, etc. We subvert their governments for other reasons.

The Israel issue is not cut and dried, Britain chose Israel knowing that the jewish people would be willing to occupy. Looking for who is right is a waste of time.

Steal the oil until it's gone, then they won't be able to afford bottle rockets, much less nuclear ones. That's the plan, has been the plan for a long time, and will continue to be the plan. Kill leaders when they pop up, or buy them, or negotiate with them until they lose credibility with their own folk, whatever it takes to blunt their edge. Sure, it's probably a bit like our own weird version of Versailles, but as long as we kill all the Hitlers, it's okay.

You fight them head on, like in Iraq, and you create more of them, making it less likely that you can kill them all. So you're back to killing the Hitlers. In the end, they'll be left with worthless land, losing extremists that have no leverage in a post oil era. Basically, they'll be just like white supremacists in the US, irrelevant as long as you keep them poor and without real leaders.

It's not a moral issue at all. Everyone involved is a *******. Be a bigger, smarter *******.

WinterPalm

07-14-2006, 10:28 AM

KC elbows just submitted the argument.

Crushing Fist

07-14-2006, 10:28 AM

nevermind, you're probably just playing devils advocate for lack of anything better to do.

bah!

discovered at last!

and its not for lack of anything better to do...

there are lots of better things I could (and really should) be doing...

but this is fun ;)

The actual question I wanted answered was:

Has an occupational army ever defeated an indigenous guerilla resistance?

I'll add the modifier of "without colonization and genocide" to narrow it down a bit.

Look at the USSR and Afghanistan...

Now we are there... apparently learning from history isn't our thing.

I appreciate your answering one of my questions, but I don't think it was as much an answer as a dismissal of the question.

It seems to me that you are saying what makes something morally superior is the "Intent" of the action... yes?

but from whose point of view?

If your child is killed by a bomb, would it make you feel better that the bomber wasn't trying to kill your child?

Or would it perhaps make you want to kill their child in the old testament "eye for an eye" let them see how it feels sense?

Once again...

I'm not condoning anything, I'm just exploring cause and effect and the human psyche.

To defeat your enemies you must first understand them.

David Jamieson

07-14-2006, 10:48 AM

Has an occupational army ever defeated an indigenous guerilla resistance?

yes.

The Marshall plan following world war two put occupational forces into japan and germany. there were guerilla warriors in germany fighting againste the americans for another decade after the end of the war. America prevaled and Germany normalized afterwards and finally came into a real stae of unity at the end of teh reagan era. It can take time, but these are examples of how it can work if persistence, determination and intention are clear and resolute.

If there is a faltering step, it doesn't mean failure, but if we don't pick ourselves up and correct this, we all fail and it will all go to sh1t.

KC Elbows

07-14-2006, 11:07 AM

And when the middle east becomes as bereft of natural resources to exploit as Japan is, then the similarities can begin.

Remember the Nissan Titan.

Buy one now, if you love freedom.

http://www.nissanusa.com/titan/?Site=Google&Creative=Unknown&Area=nissan_titan&CMP=KNC-Google

Crushing Fist

07-14-2006, 11:12 AM

good example...

When the Iraqi insurgency reared its ugly head shortly after the collapse of the Saddam Hussein regime, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld reassured the home front this was like the harassment of allied positions in Germany after the collapse of Hitler's Third Reich. Just a few rearguard actions, the kind we dealt with in the immediate post-war days.
By accident of birth, some of us served in World War II, and recall no such insurgency in Germany. The United States recruited important Nazis to help develop a strategic missile program and co-opted the Ghelen Organization, the department of Nazi intelligence that had focused on the Soviet Union. Still others hightailed out of Germany with Nazi loot - and Argentine passports.

A German insurgency? A Nazi underground that targeted U.S. troops? That killed Germans cooperating with American occupation forces? No such animal. What did happen was Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz, appointed in Hitler's testament president of Germany, ordered all German forces to cease-fire May 8, 1945, and then holed up in Flensburg in an attempt to cobble together a post-war German government acceptable to the Americans and the British, while avoiding surrender to the Soviets. This was a far cry from the alleged terrorist attacks against U.S. troops described at the Pentagon when the Iraqi insurgency broke out.

try again...

KC Elbows

07-14-2006, 11:21 AM

Below is the car of a traitor:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/

Not only does it not support our Japanese allies in their fight against the Korean menace, but it is an American car that is built with the intention of using less gas, thus empowering and embolding islamic extremism!

Who designed this travesty?

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/16/rosenbergs/rosenbergs.lrg.jpg

KC Elbows

07-14-2006, 12:13 PM

One last post for today.

It is important to understand that my statements on oil are not based on the belief that the U.S. is in need of the middle east's oil per se, but the money selling that oil often makes our companies.

Since oil is the crux of the issue, we should start from a common basic understanding of this viscuous elixir of death and its recent history.

Since online, no history should predate the eighties, we shall begin there.

In the eighties, there were two schools of thought on oil:

the neo-Malthusians, intractible alien life forms who insisted, as part of their mad plan from their overlords at Malthusia, that oil was four things:

1) A finite substance
2) Something we were dependent on
3) Something we were wasteful of
4) Trouble

and Exxon, a heroic collection of humans who took an oathe to fight the Malthusian overlords, who believed, based on the science of the time, specifically that science touted by several brilliant economists whose names have been lost to history, but who were adequately compensated by this human run conglomerate, that oil, in fact, represented a form of TARDIS, known in British scientific circles as Time And Relative Dimensions In Space. Thus, oil, while occupying a finite space, was, in reality, limitless, if organized first as a shaky BBC set with what appeared to be some sort of octagonal laundry press in it's center, but there was always a door that we assumed led to an infinite number of other rooms with other laundry equipment in it.

Through their heroism, determination, and a healthy amount of corporate subsidies, and their solid scientific theorems, the forces of Exxon managed to drive the Neo-Malthusians back to Mathusia. For a time, there was peace and prosperity. Not in the middle east, but other places, like Butte, Montana, or Memphis.

Tennesee, sorry about that.

Anyway, on Malthusia, the Neo-Malthusians planned their next heinous crime.

This time, they would claim that oil was four things:

1) A finite substance
2) Something we were dependent on
3) Something we were wasteful of
4) Trouble

Upon the neo-Malthusian's return, the forces of Exxon were caught by surprise. This clever new plan, unforeseen to them, posed a deadly threat to their Pax Exxonia. Think tanks worked years and months to come up with the solution to the neo-malthusian heresy.

Eventually, this solution would come.

It became known, in the secret circles that were aware of the research that supported it, as the BugsBunny-Elevator-Cliff Stepoff, and it was absolutely brilliant.

They recognized that the neo-Malthusian idea of finite resources running out and ruining everything fun, good, and requiring money to undertake, had one flaw:

...oftentimes, it created problems, but would lead to other solutions. Since there was little reason to pay atention to the fates of those who relied on the loss of a resource to time, as opposed to those who later developed the new technogies and thus thrived off of their adaptability, the heroes of Exxon brought forward the solution:

Since, historically, a solution is always found, a solution will be found.

Just as soon as we're done with all this oil.

ChinoXL

07-14-2006, 12:59 PM

Mideast = big problemo but anybody even considered north korea firing 7 missles?

lkfmdc

07-14-2006, 01:21 PM

http://www.downtowntoons.com/images/kim%20jung%20il.gif

Kim Jung Il is just lonely.....

Have a major film studio offer him a project to direct and he'd cease to be a world threat (I'm half serious)

KC Elbows

07-14-2006, 02:01 PM

http://www.downtowntoons.com/images/kim%20jung%20il.gif

Kim Jung Il is just lonely.....

Have a major film studio offer him a project to direct and he'd cease to be a world threat (I'm half serious)

That's my impression as well. The media plays up the crazy bit, but it's a "preserve my life of luxury" kind of crazy, which kind of precludes instigating nuclear war.

Crushing Fist

07-14-2006, 02:55 PM

...represented a form of TARDIS, known in British scientific circles as Time And Relative Dimensions In Space.

Anyone who not only knows what a TARDIS is but what it means is OK in my book.

d@mn the Neo-Malthusians at dieoff! (http://www.dieoff.org)

Hieronim

07-14-2006, 06:12 PM

israel must really see iran as a serious threat (threat to their overwhelming military dominance of the region, that is, not their existence)

once you grasp the history of the region, israeli actions become quite transparent. this attack on lebanon is designed to provoke the iranian-backed hezbollah (who, remember, didn't exist until israel invaded lebanon to destroy the PLO, who were being too peaceful and in danger of placing serious political pressure on israel regarding a settlement for the palestinians)

Strife

07-14-2006, 06:23 PM

i say we shave our heads, get monk uniforms, practice alittle bit first, grab our broadswords or staffs if you prefer, pick up an uzi or ak-47 if you prefer and start up a revolution!!!!

get rid of borders and nations, destroy this wage driven society thats corrupted by money and oil, and start from the ground up!!!!

im down, lets go!!!!!!

Crushing Fist

07-15-2006, 06:04 AM

most of americas oil comes from canada. Yep its foreign alright....sort of.

how does it feel to wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and be so very wrong?

(imports) (dom prod)
Canada 2,084 17.8% 10.1%
Mexico 1,507 12.9% 7.3%
Venezuela 1,505 12.9% 7.3%
Saudi Arabia 1,358 11.6% 6.6%
Nigeria 1,194 10.2% 5.8%
Angola 522 4.5% 2.5%
Iraq 476 4.1% 2.3%
Algeria 404 3.4% 2.0%
Virgin Islands* 299 2.6% 1.4%
United Kingdom 283 2.4% 1.4%
Other 2,079 17.8% 10.0%
Total 11,711 100.0% 56.6%

OPEC Countries 5,102 43.6% 24.7%
Persian Gulf Countries 1,949 16.6% 9.4%

canada is #1 on this list at 10.1% of domestic product supplied

what form of math do you use to make 10.1% "most of america's oil"

if you had said canada was the number one exporter of oil to the US that would have been correct.

but you didn't.

"Most" of america's oil comes from foriegn sources...

more than twice as much comes from OPEC countries as comes from Canada.

Crushing Fist

07-15-2006, 07:59 AM

Why goodness, that would be wrong! What you do is call the Homeowners Association (The U.N.) and tell them about all that is happening, and show them the photos of your windows, your dog, etc.

That way the Homeowners Association can look at it, and say "Well this is all very bad, we'll investigate further." You call week after week to check on the investigation, and you still get the same response. Months pass by. After all, the Homeowners Association is busy with important things, like parking illegally and punching an old lady in the face while claiming "Homeowner Immunity."

At this point, more damage has been brought against you. Your wife was shot by a stray bullet, and your son is too scared to go outside of his room anymore. You have another neighbor who is pretty good friends with you (the U.S.), and offers to help you out.

"Great, so you're gonna come with me to confront him?" you say.

"Errrr, no. But here's a gun. Good luck with that!" your other neighbor replies.

So after much agonizing and soul-searching, you hold the gun, tempted to fire back at your neighbor, but you know the possible consequences. You hear a crash, and a thud. Your son is laying dead on the floor. Unable to take it, you fire back, and you accidentally kill your neighbor's wife. Your neighbor immediately calls the Homeowners Association. HIS son straps a bomb to his chest and blows up your car in order to avenge his mother.

At this point the Homeowners Association wants to take the title to your house, saying "You know, we were just going to help you out with your neighbor, but you just COULDN'T WAIT could you?" Then the Homeowners Association chastises the neighbor who gave you the gun, and claims that since you acted without them, they cannot help you. Nothing is done or said to the neighbor who is still taking potshots at you.

oh is that how it happened?

poor little Israel... they never hurt nobody

March 16, 2003

STATEMENT ON THE MURDER OF RACHEL CORRIE

In Rafah, Gaza Strip today Rachel Corrie, a 23-year old American woman from Olympia, Washington, who was a volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement, was killed by the Israeli Army. Rachel was standing in the path of the bulldozer as it advanced towards her. When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside she climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it wearing a fluorescent jacket to look directly at the driver who kept on advancing. The bulldozer continued to advance so that she was pulled under the pile of dirt and rubble. After she had disappeared from view the driver kept advancing until the bulldozer was completely on top of her. The driver did not lift the bulldozer blade and so she was crushed beneath it. Then the driver backed up - effectively running over her again. The seven other ISM activists taking part in the action rushed to dig out her body. An ambulance rushed her to Al-Najar Hospital where she died.

The Israeli Army consistently bulldozes Palestinian homes, particularly in Rafah, where over 100 homes have been demolished in the last two years. The International Solidarity Movement - both Palestinian and international citizens - calls upon the international community to break the silence around Israel's grotesque human rights abuses. International civilians are in the Occupied Palestinian Territories attempting to protect Palestinian human rights and lives precisely because formal international bodies have refused to take action to do so. Dozens of Palestinian civilians are being systematically murdered weekly, and today, a beautiful, conscientious American defender of human rights was killed trying to protect the home of a Palestinian family.

This murder, along with Israel's continued destruction of Palestinian homes must be strongly condemned by the United States and the United Nations and they must insist that Israel abide by international law and UN Resolutions. The International Solidarity Movement also calls upon the United States government to conduct its own independent investigation into this incident and to take responsibility for the manner in which the Israeli government is using the $2.2 billion in military aid that we grant to Israel per year. This money and US-made weaponry is daily being used by the Israeli military to harm innocent civilians. The bulldozer that killed Rachel Corrie was an American-made Caterpillar D-9 bulldozer.

The murder of Rachel Corrie was clearly NOT an accident. Eyewitnesses report that the bulldozer driver was able to see Rachel, and that they were shouting to the driver to stop. The Israeli government and army continue to blame the victims of violence carried out by the Israeli Army for their own suffering. Israel must be accountable for this criminal act and all criminal acts it is carrying out on a daily basis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

...much

Crushing Fist

07-15-2006, 08:35 AM

poor Israel... we should feel bad for them.

The Israeli Assault on Gaza

This article documents events in besieged and now reoccupied Gaza since the Palestinians responded to continued Israeli Defense Forces' (IDF) attacks against them by striking at an Israeli military post near Kerem Shalom crossing, southeast of Rafah, on June 25 killing two IDF soldiers, injuring several others and capturing a third. The Israeli response was swift and deadly but has not yet been unleashed fully as the IDF decides when to enter Gaza full force to launch an assault against the defenseless people there already under seige. The Palestinian strike followed a series of bloody June Israeli attacks on Gaza including the widely reported beach shelling that killed 8 Palestinians and injured 32 others including 13 children. The Israelis admitted shelling the beach but denied responsibility for the deaths. They falsely claimed a Palestinian planted mine killed the civilians there despite the forensic evidence clearly proving otherwise. The corporate media reported the Israeli version of events but ignored the evidence refuting it preventing the public from knowing the truth. It also never reported that the so-called Israeli Gaza withdrawal of its 8,500 settlers in 21 settlements last August wasn't that at all. That staged media event was little more than the resettlement of Gaza's Jewish residents to new homes in Israel proper and the West Bank on other seized Palestinian land. Furthermore, the IDF didn't withdraw. It merely redeployed away from the settlements it was guarding to new positions on the border. Gaza continued to be under de facto occupation and sealed off whenever the IDF wished, as it's now done, and along with the West Bank remains one of the world's two largest open air prisons.

The Palestinian June 25 raid was its response to continued IDF daily attacks against Gaza throughout June that killed about 30 people, injured many more and caused much destruction of property. Following the incident, the IDF launched "Operation Summer Rain" that included closing all border crossings, sealing off the territory to restrict movement in and out including humanitarian supplies such as food and medicine, and surrounding the territory awaiting orders to launch a major assault which it's now begun. The IDF has also stepped up its artillery shelling that has gone on continually for months. It's been firing 200 - 300 or more shells per day into northern Gaza, many close to civilian homes. It's also launched round the clock air attacks with F16 fighter jets and helicopter gunships firing air-to-surface missiles and dropping one-ton bombs on civilian facilities; it's conducting mock air raids; and it's aircraft are breaking the sound barrier over Gaza at low altitudes deliberately inflicting eardrum shattering and terrifying sonic booms against the helpless people.

The IDF Assault on Gaza Was Planned Well in Advance

What's now unfolding in Gaza was planned months ago by the Israelis. They've just been waiting for a plausible excuse to unleash it. The capturing, not kidnapping, of one of their soldiers as a POW provided it. So far the US, world community and UN Secretary General support the Israeli action by their near silence. And nothing is said in the major media to condemn a clear crime or report anything about the 9,000 or more Palestinian civilians forcibly arrested, now held in indefinite detention and grievously abused or tortured by the only country in the world to effectively legalize torture according to Amnesty International (the US, of course, now also has). Many of those in custody are political prisoners held administratively without charge, and Israeli human rights monitoring group B'Tselem reports Israel's use of torture is widespread and routine against them.

of course the US sides with Israel...

herding people into reservations while stealing their land is the American way

Tell the Cherokee Nation about how the US never violated human rights in its long and glorious history.

Merryprankster

07-15-2006, 08:47 AM

once you grasp the history of the region, israeli actions become quite transparent.

You're joking, right? I mean, you must be. Because your subsequent comments reveal the extent of your bias. An accurate reading of the history reveals an enormously complex problem with some genuinely odd root causes - some of them an artifact of Ottoman land distribution and governance.

As far as Hizballah being a "response to the Israeli invasion of 1982," you have to ask yourself a single question: Is correlation causality?

In this case, I don't think it is.

The context for Israel's invasion of 1982 was the raging civil war in Lebanon. As a reminder, this lasted from 1975 to 1990. Lebanese society is composed of three major demographics, with a smattering of others. The majors are Maronite Christians, Sunni Muslims and Shiite Muslims. Lebanon has always had a weak central government by design, with some unusual provisions in the Constitution- namely, that the President is a Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim, and the Speaker of the Legislature a Shi'ite.

Fighting broke out in the early 1970s between PLO & Palestinian Militia, and the Lebanese. Incidentally the PLO and Palestinian militias were referred to as "anti-Lebanese" militias...

Oh, those that too "peaceful and in danger of placing serious political pressure on israel regarding a settlement for the palestinians" PLO! So peaceful and goodhearted that they BIT THE HAND THAT FED THEM....

The weak central government was unable to control the violence of course. Harboring Arafat and Co was a fantastically bad idea in the first place, but that's another issue.

Resistance groups loyal to their own "tribe," usually defined in terms of religious & political identification sprang up to protect their interests. After all, if the government does not have a monopoly on the use of force, then it is in your best interest to arm yourself against hostile neighbors.

MANY different armed factions lobbed shells at each other. The Shi'ite resistance group, Amal was doing ok, but was nothing to write home about. After all, the Shi'ites were poor, poorly educated, and mostly rural - pretty standard Shi'ite situation in most ME countries.

Cue a brief history lesson: The split between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims stems from an argument over the rightful succession to the Caliphate and Muhammed's legacy. With the split comes different religious precepts and structure. Shi'ites are a serious minority throughout the world, have been treated that way, and have used several artful phrases, such as "the dust of the earth," "The oppressed of the field," etc over time, to express that sentiment. In some places in time and space, Shi'ites were actually considered heretics, to be extirpated.

Enter the Iranian Revolution.

Iran, through a quirk of history (a Persian ruler simply got up one day and declared that Persia was Shi'ite to solve a political problem), is the only super-majority Shi'ite country in the world. The Iranian Revolution was supposed to do two major things, beyond the internal stuff:

1. It was supposed to provide a model for an Islamic Democracy that would shine as a beacon to the rest of the Islamic world (and that has worked SO well!), and it would promote that revolution in appropriate places.

2. It would become protector of the dust of the earth.

Hieronim would have us believe that Hizballah stood up in 1982 as a response to the Israeli invasion, but we have established a few things:

1. Lebanon had no central government.
2. The militias were all in it for themselves, pounding the crap out of opposing groups in an amalgam of shifting alliances.
3. The historical place of Shi'ites and their not especially fantastic Amal resistance group in Lebanon.

If I am Iran, and I am looking around the world for a place to: A) spread my Islamic Revolution and B) protect the Shia, Lebanon looks mighty attractive.

With a weak central (none effective by this time) government, there is a good chance that you might be able to win and the significant Shi'ite majority in Lebanon is a great, high profile group of people to protect.

It makes PERFECT sense, under those conditions to start/support a Shi'ite movement using Iran state resources - formidable in the ME.

So did Hizballah REALLY begin as an opposition group to Israel? I believe two things. First, the Israeli invasion was a catalyst, given Iran's hatred of Israel from the outset (remember the "Little Satan?"). Iran was still a young revolution at that point, and southern Lebanon is majority Shi'ite. I'm betting the revolutionary government knew that supporting a Shi'ite militia to protect Lebanese Shi'ites from Israel would play quite well, internally.

Secondly, citing the destruction of Israel as a key platform item for Hizballah not only would have been popular among the Shi'ites in Lebanon at the time, but also is in line with the goals of Iran - note also that a key goal for Hizballah is trying to establish an Islamic government based on Iran's.

From the Lebanese Shi'ite perspective - yes, Israel was an enemy, but not the only enemy... it was just another in a string of groups trying to blow them up, certainly being Israel didn't exactly speak in their favor.... But the Shi'ites would fight them, just like they fought everybody else. And if Iran is willing to offer money and weapons and training on the condition that you adopt destroying Israel as a country - well, that's a pretty popular sentiment in the ME - so why not? Can't hurt anything. Maybe recruitment will rise.

An Islamic revolution? Sure, why not? Whatever you say Iran.

When you are looking death in the face, the guns, the money and the training are what matter. Attach whatever label to it you want. If you can help us organize and protect ourselves and our cultural identity, we'll be more than happy to make this bargain. Israel is certinaly the enemy NOW...where were you, when we were getting crapped on by the Christians and Sunnis? It's been 3 years since the revolution after all... No matter...but since Israel's invasion is what made your panties wet, Iran, we'll be more than happy to take that aid and continue fighting the Israelis just like we fought the rest!

Lebanese Shi'ites took the aid for the same reasons any of us would have, and they fought the Israelis just like they fought everybody else - the PLO, the Christians, the indigenous Sunni groups.

Hizballah eventually became a political party - albeit one that refused to disarm - and conveniently dropped the "Islamic Revolution" part saying that "the conditions are not yet met."

I also happen to think that the political arms of both Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas currently have zero control over their militants, and that Israel is suffering from some severe short-sightedness in that regard, but that is a separate issue.

Note that in the above, I am not suggesting that Israel's invasion of Lebanon was necessarily justified, nor that Israel's invasion was not a key factor in the timing of the creation of Hizballah. I am merely pointing out the myriad internal and external factors - the context - in which Israel's invasion occurred. The Israeli invasion of Lebanon did not suddenly produce Hizballah - and given the strength of the other things that were going on with respect to Iran and Lebanon, you could conceivably argue that really, it was only a matter of time before Iran got involved this way - the '82 invasion just sped the timetable up.

Now my personal viewpoint is that I don't know. I don't know if something like Hizballah would have been started anyway. It might have been in light of Iran's goals - but Israel grabbed Iran's attention in a huge way. The argument could go both ways and there are valid reasons on each side, and we will never know, probably, because anything Iran and Hizballah issue to that effect will be propoganda pieces.

Saying Hizballah,

didn't exist until israel invaded lebanon to destroy the PLO, who were being too peaceful and in danger of placing serious political pressure on israel regarding a settlement for the palestinians

Is vastly oversimplified...and these oversimplifications offered by supporters on each side have promoted the travesty, emboldened the hard-liners, and created barriers to resolution - perpetuating violence, tragedy and death. And, as long as people oversimplify the issue, this will continue.

Such is the power of myth.

And anybody who thinks the PLO was serious about brokering a deal with Israel under Arafat... I've got some beachfront property in Arizona you're going to LOVE.

Merryprankster

07-15-2006, 08:54 AM

more than twice as much comes from OPEC countries as comes from Canada.

Ok.

But what's your point? Venezuela and Nigeria are two of the top five providers of foreign oil to the United States and they are OPEC nations.

Of the other OPEC Countries, only KSA breaks the top 5.

I'm desperately trying to figure out what you are trying to demonstrate with this.

Crushing Fist

07-15-2006, 08:56 AM

Worst fears realized...

TEL AVIV (BNN)--Defense Ministry sources revealed today that Israel's army is struggling to meet the threat from a Palestinian "super rock" which it is feared will decimate Israel's tank forces in the Occupied Territories.

Israeli spokesmen have long defended the use of live ammunition, tanks and helicopters against Palestinian civilians who are either unarmed, or armed with rocks, by arguing that rocks, too, can be deadly.

For this reason, say the sources, Israel's army has been compelled to deploy its heaviest and most advanced equipment to meet the threat from 9 year-old boys lobbing fist-sized pieces of rubble at them.

"At the present time, we have only just succeeded in staving off the threat from these deadly pebbles," said Israeli military analyst and retired major-general Onef Koach. According to Koach, the number of Israeli troops killed by Palestinian children throwing rocks is currently zero, as is the number of tanks destroyed. Amnesty International for its part says that the number of Palestinian children killed by Israeli forces since October 2000 exceeds three hundred, all of them completely unarmed and innocent, although some may have been throwing rocks.

According to Koach, this kill ratio is getting much too close for comfort. "We cannot rely forever on the inferiority of Palestinian weapons," said Koach, referring to leaked reports that Palestinian scientists buried deep in Yasser Arafat's Ramallah compound are using the abundance of rubble there to develop a new Palestinian "super rock." "If this is the case," said Koach, "we could actually see the paint on some of our tanks being chipped instead of the rocks just bouncing off harmlessly as they do now. This would be a disaster for Israel's deterrent capacity, national morale, and macho pride, and would give the Palestinians the message that the Israeli army can be defeated by force."

Asked about these report, the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat denied them categorically. "I am asking the whole international community to come and see, do we have rocks here?" he said, standing atop a pile of rubble that used to be the Palestinian National Archive, flanked by all four of his remaining supporters.

hey MP...

give it a couple years, that Arizona property really will be prime beach front real estate. ;)

Merryprankster

07-15-2006, 08:59 AM

BTW, I re-read my last post - it comes across kind of ****ish, and I'm not trying to be.

I'm just trying to figure out what the point is, LOL!

It's early out here... and my brain sometimes don't work so good.

Crushing Fist

07-15-2006, 09:02 AM

Ok.

But what's your point? Venezuela and Nigeria are two of the top five providers of foreign oil to the United States and they are OPEC nations.

Of the other OPEC Countries, only KSA breaks the top 5.

I'm desperately trying to figure out what you are trying to demonstrate with this.

It was right there front in center in my post MP...

I was demonstrating the fallacy of Jamison's statement...

he made some wild statement like it was a fact and I had to call it out.

nothing more

Are you saying we are all "buddy buddy" with Venezuela?

and you bring back another of my questions that was utterly ignored:

why are we so "buddy buddy" with the KSA?

anyone?

Merryprankster

07-15-2006, 09:08 AM

Got it. I thought you were trying to make a larger point. I'll assume that the tone of your post was a response to the deadly bad one of my original and leave it at that :D

Not looking to start any fights this morning.

At least, not with you, LOL.

Yet Israeli analysts say Olmert's formidable challenges are the same that Sharon faced: The Lebanese and Palestinian governments he holds responsible for the attacks are too weak or unwilling to confront the armed groups in their territory.

"The dilemma is you cannot force a non-state to become a state," said Yaron Ezrahi, a Hebrew University political science professor. "What Olmert is seeking to do is to say this issue is not just about us. It should show to the world very clearly that the Arab-Israeli conflict has been hijacked by Islamists for their own purposes."

BTW, I just pulled the above from the Washington Post. At least somebody gets it...

David Jamieson

07-15-2006, 01:33 PM

ok so not most of americas oil comes from canada, im pretty sure that it is higher than 10% though MP. Not certain of the exact figure, but I have heard 14 - 17% of US oil is imported from Canada, not to mention Natural gas as well and Coal.

anyway, be assured that Canada is a major raw resource energy supplier and that's not going to be shaken by any of these events in the middle east. It is likely that Canada can supply even more than teh current output as well and we will likely see an increase in trade in the not too distant future.

anyway, what does canadas supply base have to do with either supporting or not supporting Isareals actions?

I personally support Israels actions, would like to see them restrain themselves and focus their attacks on military targets and Hezbollah targets only and to refrain from striking at Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

As complex as the land issue is, that does need to be resolved, but that is not the reason for what is going on at this instant. Even though, for sure this is tied to the overall problem.

anyway:

The United States has on average 42,000 car crash related deaths a year (out of a 300 million population). - source wikipedia.
That's a lot of dead people and has as much relevance as a word game about oil.

Merryprankster

07-15-2006, 09:01 PM

It is higher than 10 percent. I know that for certain.

I personally support Israels actions, would like to see them restrain themselves and focus their attacks on military targets and Hezbollah targets only and to refrain from striking at Lebanese civilian infrastructure.

As complex as the land issue is, that does need to be resolved, but that is not the reason for what is going on at this instant. Even though, for sure this is tied to the overall problem.

I support Israel's imperative (not desire - big difference) to act. I do not believe going into Gaza again was a proportional response - at least the way they've done it.

I also agree that Hizballah needs to pay for their kidnapping. They seem to have just decided that it was a good time to screw with Israel.

I concur that they should refrain from striking Lebanese civilian infrastructure. I do not believe that Israel had a right to violate Lebanese soveriegnty here. A more appropriate action would have been to go to the UN. Yes, it sounds silly, but the points scored on that manuever could have been quite valuable.

However, I think Israel right now doesn't seem to get, or is being willfully ignorant of the idea that HAMAS and Hizballah's political leaders don't have control over the militants. They can hold the political leaders responsible all they want, but it will not result in resolution.

Case in point - Khaled Meshal not two days ago announced to the press that Israel needed to talk to him and not Ismail Hamiya if Israel wanted Corporal Shalit back safely... one analysis from Haaretz believed that this was just an opportunity to play good cop/bad cop. While Hamiya plays the "poor Palestinians" card, Meshal can be a **** from the safety of Syria.

But think about that for a second - would Hamiya the political leader of the Palestinian government - willfully advertise that HE isn't the guy in charge? That would completely undermine his authority.

What you are witnessing, IMO, is an internal power struggle. HAMAS got elected. But when you get elected, you are acquiescing to the facts on the ground. They are at least willing to work within the system. It is an act of compromise.

Within any revolutionary organization, there is some faction that is unwilling to compromise. For them, it is all or nothing. RIRA split from the IRA...Irgun wanted to maintain its independent militia status for continued attacks...

Somewhere, while Hamiya is publicly denouncing the attacks and trying to stay ahead of the Corporal Shalit problem, he is locked in a back room with his trusted advisors trying to figure out how he gets the collective heads of the militants who did this. He's calling a bunch of people he formerly worked with *******s and trying to make sure they get dead.

fa_jing

07-16-2006, 03:09 PM

source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

"Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

'''In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.'''"

"Although much is heard about the plight of the Palestinian refugees, little is said about the Jews who fled from Arab states. Their situation had long been precarious. During the 1947 UN debates, Arab leaders threatened them. For example, Egypt's delegate told the General Assembly: “The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries would be jeopardized by partition.”"

"The number of Jews fleeing Arab countries for Israel in the years following Israel's independence was roughly equal to the number of Arabs leaving Palestine. Many Jews were allowed to take little more than the shirts on their backs. These refugees had no desire to be repatriated. Little is heard about them because they did not remain refugees for long. Of the 820,000 Jewish refugees, 586,000 were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions. Israel has consequently maintained that any agreement to compensate the Palestinian refugees must also include Arab compensation for Jewish refugees. To this day, the Arab states have refused to pay any compensation to the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were forced to abandon their property before fleeing those countries"

"Through November 2003, 101 of the 681 UN resolutions on the Middle East conflict referred directly to Palestinian refugees. Not one mentioned the Jewish refugees from Arab countries (Jerusalem Post, December 4, 2003)."

ME - so much for going to the UN, I guess, no expert but it doesn't look good from here.

"The treatment of the refugees in the decade following their displacement was best summed up by a former UNRWA official, Ralph Galloway, in August 1958: “The Arab States do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a **** whether the refugees live or die.”

Little has changed in succeeding years. Arab governments have frequently offered jobs, housing, land and other benefits to Arabs and non-Arabs, excluding Palestinians. For example, Saudi Arabia chose not to use unemployed Palestinian refugees to alleviate its labor shortage in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Instead, thousands of South Koreans and other Asians were recruited to fill jobs."

fa_jing

07-16-2006, 03:17 PM

http://www.answers.com/topic/jewish-exodus-from-arab-lands

PS good luck and god bless everyone. I just wanted to provide some extra info. Peace is the way.

Peter Tosh - "I don't want no peace, I want equal rights and justice"

ZIM

07-16-2006, 08:33 PM

I haven't been paying much attention to much of anything on this list of late, but I kinda figured ya'll would be debating this one..:rolleyes:

I think the major reason Israel is responding in such a strong way is because of something very important that nobody in the news has seen fit to mention yet: There hapens to be a nuclear reactor in Haifa, just off-shore, in the northern part of the port.

Now, Haifa itself has never been targeted by terrorists before in such a concentrated way - and you'll note that they've already taken out one of the Israeli ships. Haifa is basically a steep ridge about 10-15 miles from Lebanon, with Lebanon having the high ground & strategic advantage from an artillery POV.

Basically, Israel can't afford to take any chances. If the reactor goes kablooey, its a cinch the US Navy gets involved, blockading & providing humanitarian relief. If *that* occurs, we just may get that WWIII....

[Apologies if any of this has come up previously..]

Royal Dragon

07-16-2006, 10:07 PM

I'm thinking we are seeing the first stages of the apocolyps personally.

David Jamieson

07-17-2006, 05:43 AM

These threads help toe get teh apocaplypse ball rolling.

people who haven't been around for months will come out of the woodwork for a good war thread. :rolleyes:

apocalypse...no such thing. Certainly not an autonomous thing. People have to make a decision to let those missiles fly. I wouldn't put any politician on the level of prophet.

ZIM

07-17-2006, 05:54 AM

Well...I've been busy. :D

David Jamieson

07-17-2006, 06:35 AM

Did you get a note excusing you from the rest of the forum for the last few months? :p

ZIM

07-17-2006, 07:10 AM

No no no. I just had eye surgery. They pop your eyes out like this :eek: didja know that? I sure didn't. :mad:

Crushing Fist

07-17-2006, 07:26 AM

Not certain of the exact figure, but I have heard 14 - 17% of US oil is imported from Canada...

It is higher than 10 percent. I know that for certain.

excuse me while I bang my head on the desk for a moment...

ok

the numbers I posted were for March 2006

they vary a little month to month but only a few tenths of a percent.

the first number is barrels in thousands, the second is percent of imports, the third is percent of domestic product supplied.

canada supplies 10% of america's oil.

anyway, what does canadas supply base have to do with either supporting or not supporting Isareals actions?

dude...

you brought it up.

do you remember if you had a point?

HAMAS got elected.

and the US immediately cut diplomatic ties...

making our "support" of "democracy" even more of a joke.

emisosa

07-17-2006, 08:03 AM

The statement is "support for the democracies that agree with us". And if a regime agrees with us, lets support them too !. Like it happened many many times, and people seems to keep forgeting when demagogic speaches come along speaking about freedom for some country, justifiying a war that is so obvious its not about freedom.
They keep forgeting the many regimes America supported and also established in the 60's 70's and 80's just because they needed friends against the soviets.

But well, that's what you get when you can only have two options to vote for. America should check the type of freedom they really have, before trying to impose a democracy somewhere else.

Crushing Fist

07-17-2006, 11:15 AM

The Gingrich that stole Christmas...

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/davidpostman/archives/2006/07/gingrich_says_its_world_war_iii.html

Gingrich says it's World War III

Posted by David Postman at 12:54 PM

Former U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich says America is in World War III and President Bush should say so. In an interview in Bellevue this morning Gingrich said Bush should call a joint session of Congress the first week of September and talk about global military conflicts in much starker terms than have been heard from the president.

(snip)

Gingrich said in the coming days he plans to speak out publicly, and to the Administration, about the need to recognize that America is in World War III.

He lists wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, this week's bomb attacks in India, North Korean nuclear threats, terrorist arrests and investigations in Florida, Canada and Britain, and violence in Israel and Lebanon as evidence of World War III. He said Bush needs to deliver a speech to Congress and "connect all the dots" for Americans.

The Willow Sword

07-17-2006, 11:16 AM

Every Piece of this is Man's Bullsh!t. They say this War is a Cloud over the land.
Well they Made the Weather and they stand out in the Rain and say "Sh!t, It's Raining".

TWS

WinterPalm

07-17-2006, 11:32 AM

Well, the Americans have been involved in so many shady deals over the past century or more and now it is all locking into place and everything is hitting a boiling point. No doubt that the American ideal as a representation of teir empire is in utter decline. There was a chance to stand up and show the world a good honest organizational level of human society, but they have failed and the stark reality has been hitting home for years now.
A close ally of America is Saudi Arabia...not exactly the most democratic of liberal of countries!

In an aside, Israel killed seven of my countrymen including four children. Go Israel!:rolleyes:

ZIM

07-17-2006, 11:36 AM

The statement is "support for the democracies that agree with us". And if a regime agrees with us, lets support them too !
Well, yeah. Of course we'd only support those regimes/democracies/etc that agree with us. So? So does everybody else. Are we supposed to apologize for our self-interest? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, I think we should be even more self-interested than we are. Throw out the rhetoric, go balls to the wall Imperial, and scr3w what anybody else says about it [because, really, what *can* they say?] ;)

WinterPalm

07-17-2006, 11:38 AM

emisosa

07-17-2006, 11:54 AM

Well, yeah. Of course we'd only support those regimes/democracies/etc that agree with us. So? So does everybody else. Are we supposed to apologize for our self-interest? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, I think we should be even more self-interested than we are. Throw out the rhetoric, go balls to the wall Imperial, and scr3w what anybody else says about it [because, really, what *can* they say?] ;)

hell yeah!! you should apologyse for supporting for example a regime in argentina in 1983 that murdred 30,000 argentinians and kidnapped thousands of babies that (now grown ups) are still being returned to their real families through the most extensive DNA investigation ever.!

Yes, you have to apologyes to support people like Al-quaed that now became the most dangerous terrorist group.

Do you still think you shouldn't apologyse!!!!!!!!! sheesh!!!!!!!!

ZIM

07-17-2006, 11:54 AM

Pish. No we haven't. We still act as if you all matter in soem way, for one thing, and we still host that farce of a UN for second...

Argentinans. LMAO ROTFLOL

That was pretty good, I have to admit.

emisosa

07-17-2006, 12:11 PM

emisosa

07-17-2006, 12:14 PM

Argentinans. LMAO ROTFLOL
That was pretty good, I have to admit.

What's the fun in that? i don't understand...

Visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

This guys tortured and kill thousands of civilians. learn some history, then make an opinion in politics.

ZIM

07-17-2006, 12:18 PM

If what america does is only self-interest, then say it, and stop screaming that America only wants freedom for everybody and to bring democracy to remote places.... Because i don;'t get it otherwise.That's what I was saying!

What would you say if Al-Quaeda sais "What we do is just self-interest, scr3w what anybody else says about it".
I would not be surprised in the least.

How far can they go on "self-interest"? Can they go as far as America?No. That's partly why I don't care. The other part is because they don't fit into my monkey-sphere. And truth be told, they don't fit into yours, either. They're merely a means to a self-interested end for you.

Or is it that killing children with bombs wraped to your chest is worst than killing them with laser guided bombs? (quoting something on this forum)

I hope that you get your feets down to earth a little.My feet, though they are kicked up on a chair at the moment, seem to be firmer planted than some, I dare say. At the least, I know what I'm about & don't hedge anything about it. ;)

emisosa

07-17-2006, 12:24 PM

Argentinans. LMAO ROTFLOL
That was pretty good, I have to admit.

What's the fun in that? i don't understand...
please explain zim. But before, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

ZIM

07-17-2006, 12:29 PM

It was mostly funny because you were, apparently, appealing to my latent humanity or some such. :p

Trade ya! (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html)

David Jamieson

07-17-2006, 01:11 PM

whadda ya think Steve will say or do about those dead Canadians winterpalm?

I think he'll do nothing. Israel will apologize and Canada will be ok with it.

Hamas was elected. I wonder why.

anyway, I still support Isarel. I still would like to see that they ease off on civ targets, and I still would like to see the terror sponsors and organizations crushed once and for all. So long as these groups exist, there will not be peace in teh middle east and we won't feel the trickle down of that peace in the form of cheaper gas, freer passage abroad, lossened borders and general goodwill towards each other.

You have to remove rot before it effects everything. Hamas, Hezbollah, AlQ, the Talibam, Al Aqsa, etc et al. These are your rotten apples, not defenders of humanity. They use their countrymen as meat shields and put there base of commands in civilian neighbourhoods.

I fell short o my estimate of canucks in lebanon due to faulty radio reporting. it is not approx 4000 it is 40, 000 canadians.

They are advised to leave the country, they are advised to go to cyprus and from there return to Canada. Efforts are being made to get them out. Many want to stay because they are originally lebanese

KC Elbows

07-17-2006, 02:52 PM

News flash! There is not going to be peace in the middle east.

The whole idea that the very people who helped screw the region(in the modern sense) with their short term opportunism in the cold war and recent past(destroying an legitimate Iranian government that fought soviets from their borders in order to put one in that played ball with US interests ahead of Iranian ones being a fine example of such short term decisions) will turn around and save it without succumbing to the same opportunism again is very unrealistic. We are there for our own interests, and as such, we will be doing everything possible to put our interests first and the middle east's last, right up until the oil is out, and then, they'll have Bono to speak for them.

Our opportunism means that their extremism will have a place to take root. Or maybe it'll be nationalism labelling the next resistance. Regardless, either we get all that we can and leave the region without oil and an economy to mount a counter, or we get driven out and Israel finds some other big power to maintain them, and someone else takes our place in waiting out the fun with oil profits game. Or Israel falls, and chickens come home to roost, but that last one needs to be the prime concern, not because Israel is good or bad, but because that would mean the cultural tards of islamofascism we helped inspire would then be uncontrolled, and again, we're supposed to be killing all the Hitlers as we make 'em, no exceptions.

Let's assume that the extremists are killed off. Let's assume that the whole region becomes functioning, viable, sovereign states(or state) that is dead set on free trade, but hard line regarding corrupt foreign influence in their politics and economy. Trustworthy with nukes. You think they won't have plenty of cause to declare a war on the US and her allies? Exactly how do you propose they get foreign states out of their internal policies if they can't do so with the US?

The only reason that we can take a moral high ground in this discussion is because the people who are fighting, the islamic fundamentalists, are so reprehensible. The assumption that there are no fair grounds for fighting is convenient, but false, and those who depend on such arguments for anything more than propaganda don't have what it takes to win such wars.

Again, go Israel, anything they do that allows us to not have to act directly means they're doing exactly what the brits had in mind, and the brits who set up this deal knew a bit about how to destabilize possible rivals, be they moral or otherwise, even if they knew squat about the good of Israel, Lebanon, or anywhere else in the region. We should be cautious about believing our own moral rationalizations while we go the same route.

WinterPalm

07-17-2006, 03:01 PM

Steven Harper won't even make a publicity stunt out of war happenings. He won't even pretend to care. At least the liberals wanted us to believe their nonsense about dying soliders and compassion. I know Harper will not condemn anything because he needs to look strong and resulute. His whole term has been about making himself and his party look good so that he can gain a majority, then we will see what they are really about. And without a doubt that have done a good job.
-money to people with kids.
-apologize about Chinese slave labour.
etc.

I agree that all the terrorist organizations need to be wiped off the face of this planet. And that includes the rich dynasties operating in all the rich democracies around the world that send missiles at whim, and support dictators who agree, and smash democracies who don't tote the party line.
It's sick.

The Canadian government has attached itself to the G8 resolution calling for a step down and return of hostages by both sides. I entirely agree with this sentiment. Many people blame one side or the other...the situation has been boiling and building by no help from either side...it is just that hezbolla started this months fighting. Israel will say no, hezbolla will say no, more rockets, more death, more peace plans. And haliburton gets the contract to rebuild.

Mas Judt

07-17-2006, 03:16 PM

At the end of the day, I simply prefer Western civilization - flaws and all. I have no desire to live under the brutal, ignorant sword of a caliphate. At least in West, there is potential for constant improvement. The other option is simply unacceptable.

Mankind has never acted in any pure way. To expect it of ourselves before we act in self-defense is suicidal.

Zhijian Tsui

07-17-2006, 03:17 PM

Israel has the right to exsist,but has no right by international law to attack another country.

Merryprankster

07-17-2006, 08:05 PM

Crushing Fist:

You cite our withdrawal of diplomatic ties with the PA as indicative of U.S. lack of support for democracy.

But why should the United States offer support to a democratically elected government which holds positions the administration finds untenable? We should simply maintain relations because the country is democratic?

That is, put simply, silly.

Certainly, we would withdraw some measure of support for any other administration, HAMAS or not, that held positions contrary to our own. We would at the very least use our power to try and convince them to change their minds.

Now, I happen to believe that we should have maintained money flows and a diplomatic relationship, because that keeps a dialogue, and that ensures that nobody will come around to replace you. When you depart and cut yourself off, you lose the opportunity to shape the situation, and make it possible for some other country to begin exerting much more influence and have much more of a say.

But maintaining that relationship is certainly not some sort of democratic imperative, and cutting it off doesn't suggest that the United States is any less committed to democracy. It merely suggests that supporting HAMAS is anathematic.

Or are you saying that support for all democracies, everywhere, is in fact the imperative, even if it forces us to support governments with which we disagree, and that act counter to our interests?

I'll have to fundamentally disagree with that. That's like inviting a burglar into your home - clearly contrary to your interests.

No doubt that the American ideal as a representation of teir empire is in utter decline.

I LOVE statements like this! Do tell! Even at the nadir of our moral leadership - and we are probably at the lowest point - from a moral legitimacy perspective - since we emerged as a superpower after WWII, name one other country with more influence than the United States.

Name one other country more people are trying to immigrate to.

The American dream lives on...and it is writ in the heart, soul and mind of hundreds of thousands of legal and illegal immigrants each year.

I suffer from no illusions that the United States is without flaw, or occupies a "chosen" place on the planet or in history. And I think the United States could stand to revamp certain approaches to issues, both internally and externally - after all, you could add "Name one other country more people are irritated with," and probably get the same answer (I say probably because a lot of Indians are probably ****ed with Pakistan, and many South Americans consider Chavez a more immediate annoyance). In 50 years, we might be a second tier power. But, that will require, IMO, some major cultural, social and political revolutions in a few key places. And I do not know if they are up to the task.

China is the most commonly cited example of the next great hope...but they don't even have the financial instruments to float the Yuan and are VERY concerned about what fully floating it will do to their economy. They have 200 MILLION internal illegal migrants -rural Chinese who have migrated to urban areas- who cannot gain access to government services, education and jobs. The urban average income in China is about 3 times that of the rural migrants, and their purchasing power is similarly greater. Significant obstacles...

Remember when Japan was going to own the Western world?

Paraphrasing Mark Twain... "The reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated."

WinterPalm

07-17-2006, 08:38 PM

CaptinPickAxe

07-17-2006, 10:52 PM

Maybe...just maybe, if we're lucky after the war Isreal and Lebanon will become one country. They'd call it Lesbion.

Get it? Lesbian....

aww, you guys suck anyways.

Zhijian Tsui

07-18-2006, 12:23 AM

With this going on,you watch the price of gas going up now.

ZIM

07-18-2006, 01:31 AM

With this going on,you watch the price of gas going up now.Yeah yeah yeah. They built an Empire and all you got was this lousy T-shirt, eh? :p

David Jamieson

07-18-2006, 06:49 AM

Israel has the right to exsist,but has no right by international law to attack another country.

agreed, and they haven't "attacked" another country without due cause.
let's not forget a couple of things.

1. hezbolah kidnapped their idf member. (in a bid to have other terrorists released from israeli jails)

2.hezbollah is launching rockets across the border from lebanon into israel and from gaza into Israel.

3. Hezbollah kidnapped two more idf members and continues launching rockets into israel.

4.hezbollah and hamas leaders have zero control over the fighters who rally under their banner. You essentially have multiple autonomous cells making a concerted effort to do damage to israel.

5.Syria, Egypt and Lebanon have been complicit with Hezbollah in their actions and in fact have provided weaponry to them for their chaotic hate attacks. Other nations are involved as well, such as Iran where Hezbollah is based and as well, which has supplied rockets to them inside of Lebanon to launch strikes at Israeli vessels. The rocket recently launched at an Isareli vessel was Iranian in origin.

6. Palestine is NOT an autonomous state and falls under the control of Israel. This can be changed, but the palestinian factions seem to want conflict as is more or less seen by their willful election of a terrorist oprganization following the death of the ineffective and protracted political Eunuch that was Arafat.

I think onece the foreign nationals are out of the country, you will see an intensification of the tactics used by Israel to route hezbollah. It will cause repercussions and you will eventually see the west becoming involved and on teh side fo Israel.

Is there a culture clash going on? Yes there is. Would you like to live in a global caliphate with little or no rights for women, a pathetic education system centered on only learning the text and interpretation of same from a book that is 1500 years old? Would you like to live in a society that has taken a step so far back in time that you wouldn't be able to enjoy any of the liberties or freedoms or civil rights or anything that we have come to build for ourselves over the last few hundred years.

Do you think sharia is a better way to live? Afghan women didn't seem to think so under the Taliban. in Fact, Sharia is what governs Iran, a totaletarian dictatorship run by a guy who has publicly called for the destruction of Israel. Yeah that would sit well with us wouldn't it.

Israel has done wrong things,as have the states and the rest of us. But then Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and all the terrorists who are supported and live in these countries have inflicted wrongs on their own people over and over again, have an obssession with the destruction of Israel and would hold you hostage to suit their agenda faster than you can eat a smartie.

don't kid yourself, these organizations are packed with nothing but uneducated and ruthless killers. the tale of the tape is pretty obvious.

So when Israel lays a little smackdown they get demonized? pssshaw.
You wouldn't stand for it from your neighbour, why the hell should Israel have to ?

Crushing Fist

07-18-2006, 07:14 AM

Now, I happen to believe that we should have maintained money flows and a diplomatic relationship, because that keeps a dialogue, and that ensures that nobody will come around to replace you. When you depart and cut yourself off, you lose the opportunity to shape the situation, and make it possible for some other country to begin exerting much more influence and have much more of a say.

That's really the point right there...

But maintaining that relationship is certainly not some sort of democratic imperative, and cutting it off doesn't suggest that the United States is any less committed to democracy. It merely suggests that supporting HAMAS is anathematic.

What this situation shows (again) is how wrong the rhetoric is. The idea that we have to create democracies "over there" because democracies don't start wars of aggression or support terrorism.

We say we support democracy and free elections... but the whole world knows we realy mean.

We have NO problem with Saudi Arabia, a totalitarian regime that plays ball with America.

We consistantly undermine democratically elected governments because they will always do one thing: put their own concerns and those f their people before those of America.

That's why we demonize Chavez.

Democracy "over there" is NOT good for the Empire.

Lying about it just makes us that much more reprehensible.

Or are you saying that support for all democracies, everywhere, is in fact the imperative, even if it forces us to support governments with which we disagree, and that act counter to our interests?

I'll have to fundamentally disagree with that. That's like inviting a burglar into your home - clearly contrary to your interests.

I'm sure you see my point by now...

US policy is to pay lipservice to "freedom" and "democracy" but in reality it has nothing to with that.

Answer this:

What changed in Iraq that made it imperative that we invade?

did the goverment change?

no

Was there a current human rights abuse that required intervention?

no, when that was going on we were ok with it...

WMD's?

don't make me laugh.

what changed?

Saddam stopped playing ball...

He started selling oil in Euros.

that's the reason for the invasion.

the US doesn't care what kind of government they have "over there"

only that they do what we tell them.

Mr Punch

07-18-2006, 07:30 AM

but don't have time to address the points in detail so here are a few random observations:

1) The Middle East has always been tit for tat. This has always been exacerbated by western intervention..

2) Israel was created by people stealing part of another country.

3) All parties then reneged on the border deals they'd been forced to accept.

4) Palestine/Israel are in a typical unbreakable violence scenario. The onus is on Israel to break this spiral as they hold more military and economic power.

5) Sooner or later it's going to take someone to step back and say, "We have to stop fighting." Hamas did this with their ceasefire, and then with their recognition of the Israeli state. This latter point esp was a miracle given how many members of Hamas would automatically want to kill the leadership for saying this, what Arafat knew was suicide to say. Israel did not take them up on this diplomatic olive branch and nor did the imperious western powers which maintained sanctions and pushed the extremists in Hamas to act against the majority in attacking the Israeli army and the first kidnapping. Given that Hamas's placatory actions were a once in a lifetime opportunity and the nature of Middle-eastern relationships dictates that it was going to be a short window of opportunity, the West and Israel were criminally negligent in allowing things to deterioriate so quickly and badly.

6) Of course the US (and other Western powers) shouldn't automatically support the Hamas govt because it is democratically elected, as it has many opposing ideologies. It should not however actively disrupt that democratic process by causing instability within the party... not through any ideological ideas necessarily but simply because there was no direct opposition or threat to the US (on the contrary greater regional stability through supporting efforts by Hamas to make concessions to Israel would have been beneficial) and therefore meddling for the sake of it or not intervening when they could have been useful is a rank failure of humanity.

7) The Israelis have every right to attack Hizbollah. They have no right to bomb civilian areas of Lebanon. This is even more cut and dried than it was in Iraq. At least in Iraq you had some measure of support for Saddam. Bombing Lebanese civilians is outrageous: the average Lebanese has no more means to get rid of the Hizbollah in their midst than did your average English person to get rid of the IRA within our midst.

8) The Israelis basically created Hizbollah through overreaction in the past. Although the Lebanese people for now recognise that the Israelis are after Hizbollah, the more bloodshed will lead to more marginalization and more clamouring for revenge, just as before, and just as Iraq, and just as Afghanistan. The Israelis acyions are causing more extremism.

9) Great to see you back Monkey Slap, with your insane anti-Islamic paranoia :)

10) And as for you DJ, the only thing that's been constant in your long years of posting on this forum has been your ability to flipflop snottily and obnoxiously. Congratulations David Januson :D.

6. Palestine is NOT an autonomous state and falls under the control of Israel. This can be changed, but the palestinian factions seem to want conflict as is more or less seen by their willful election of a terrorist oprganization Did you miss the bit where Hamas declared ceasefire and recognised the Israeli state? To blanket them as a terroist organisation would be wrong: any halfway awake Middle-east watcher can tell you that these organisations are very loose and not unified, in fact you've said as much yourself. The leaders of Hamas who made those very unpopular decisions (to make some gestures towards Israel and the international community against their own extremist factions) still had a mandate within the reasonable members of their party. To blanket them as just a uniform terrorist organisation presumably means you believe that there should be no inclusion of Sinn Fein in Parlaimentarian talks in the UK or that they should all be shot or imprisoned?

Is there a culture clash going on? Yes there is. Would you like to live in a global caliphate with little or no rights for women, a pathetic education system centered on only learning the text and interpretation of same from a book that is 1500 years old? Would you like to live in a society that has taken a step so far back in time that you wouldn't be able to enjoy any of the liberties or freedoms or civil rights or anything that we have come to build for ourselves over the last few hundred years.

Do you think sharia is a better way to live? Afghan women didn't seem to think so under the Taliban. in Fact, Sharia is what governs Iran, a totaletarian dictatorship run by a guy who has publicly called for the destruction of Israel. Yeah that would sit well with us wouldn't it.
There is no culture clash. There is no one body of Islam any more than there is one body of Christianity. And every time the Bushes, Blairs and Olmerts stir up another hornets' nest of marginalization it only serves to highlight the inequality that causes such a spiral of violence in the first place and to destroy the very rights of the women and civil rights supporters who are campaigning every day slowly but surely to gain more rights.

Your choice of the sharia is particularly rich: at least half of the Palestinians are largely secular Arabs... and although our intervention in Afghanistan had helped to put a stop to the brutality of the Taliban regime that our very same leaders had helped to install in more meddling in the name of regional stability, our continued intervention with no clear objectives seems to be pushing them back into being a flourishing movement with again, highly marginalized and even more extreme support.

11) Zim, that Monkeysphere site is hilarious! :D But I don't agree...!

Crushing Fist

07-18-2006, 07:36 AM

Mr. Punch

very insightful post

and Zim

two words

Hee Larious :D

emisosa

07-18-2006, 08:55 AM

You cite our withdrawal of diplomatic ties with the PA as indicative of U.S. lack of support for democracy.
Withdrawal of diplomatic ties shouldn't mean hurting a democratically elected goverment that poses no threat (yet, i hope) to the US by supporting a country that want's to wipe them off the earth.

we would withdraw some measure of support for any other administration, HAMAS or not, that held positions contrary to our own. We would at the very least use our power to try and convince them to change their minds.

It would be lovely if the U.S. cuts relations with every country in the world. The world would be a much safer and richer place. IMF rings a bell? should i list the way IMF hurts poor countries?

I only disaggree with US foregin policies, i actually love American culture and the way you guys are locally.

anyway, those are my 2 cents.

fa_jing

07-18-2006, 06:36 PM

Did you miss the bit where Hamas declared ceasefire and recognised the Israeli state?

yes, please point me to a link. Especially the part about recognizing the Israeli state.

Are you familiar with the history of Israel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

"Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab landholders."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

"By the mid-19th century, the Land of Israel was a part of the Ottoman Empire populated mostly by Muslim and Christian Arabs, as well as Jews, Greeks, Druze, Bedouins and other minorities. By 1844, Jews constituted the largest population group (and by 1890 an absolute majority) in a few cities, most notably Jerusalem."

On the other hand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

"Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath believes that the notion of "large-scale immigration of Arabs from the neighboring countries" is a myth "proposed by Zionist writers""

Very well, he is probably right. You know, Google fuc.king exists (GFE). All sites are going to be biased. The difference is, sites like this: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

at least they are somewhat self-critical: "Israel is not perfect" ... "Israelis themselves are their own harshest critics. If you want to read criticism of Israeli behavior, you do not need to seek out anti-Israel sources, you can pick up any Israeli newspaper and find no shortage of news and commentary critical of government policy."

So I don't even have to know all the details of who's right and who's wrong. I look for the info that is only 65% biased, rather than the info that is 95% biased. I say to myself that the one that is only 65% biased, must be the one with a better argument. That's what you find with the Israel-Arab conflict, over and over.

Mr Punch

07-18-2006, 07:13 PM

Did you miss the bit where Hamas declared ceasefire and recognised the Israeli state?

yes, please point me to a link.
Some European diplomats now regret their haste. The decision to cut aid as well as contacts with the Palestinians is seen as a mistake. Last month's French initiative to find a mechanism for resuming aid to Gaza was the Quartet's first admission of error.

Refusing contact with Hamas was equally mistaken, especially as Hamas had maintained a unilateral ceasefire for over a year (a point which Israel tries to suppress).
Not unbiased but not too unreasonable (from here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1813522,00.html))

Nine Palestinians were killed in an Israeli air strike on the Gaza Strip today.
The attack - which came less than a week after the killing of a family on a Gaza beach prompted Hamas to end its 16-month ceasefire - killed seven civilians and two Islamic Jihad militants.
The second article is not particularly unbiased either (from here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1796622,00.html)), and there were two militants killed in the strike. But two militants for seven civilians... makes a lot of grieving families with a higher potential for militancy.

Especially the part about recognizing the Israeli state.Hamas performs about turn on Israeli state (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1802861,00.html)

Are you familiar with the history of Israel? Not as much as I could be, but I think I have a working knowledge.

at least they are somewhat self-critical: "Israel is not perfect" ... "Israelis themselves are their own harshest critics. If you want to read criticism of Israeli behavior, you do not need to seek out anti-Israel sources, you can pick up any Israeli newspaper and find no shortage of news and commentary critical of government policy."Self-criticism means nothing if your actions don't change. It's like a Catholic confession.

So I don't even have to know all the details of who's right and who's wrong. I look for the info that is only 65% biased, rather than the info that is 95% biased. I say to myself that the one that is only 65% biased, must be the one with a better argument. That's what you find with the Israel-Arab conflict, over and over.That's reasonable - I certainly don't know, but it seems to me that both sides are wrong. And to some degree I agree with Crushing Fist: the focus on the past can only be an unhealthy concentration on revenge and feuding... some needs to press forwards and that'll take the bravery of a Sharon or maybe a Abbas, the bravery to take a peaceful concessionary stance despite opposition from within your own ranks.

BTW, don't have time to look for sources other than the Guardian to answer your request for links... been on here enough already today! ;)

fa_jing

07-19-2006, 06:37 AM

from the link you posted:

"but without formally recognising the Jewish state."

But that may be seen as a minor point to your argument. I'll agree with you that the Guardian is only 65% biased. :D

Well I wanted to counteract the most extreme arguments, Israel and other regional players' moves are certainly up for debate beyond that.

Crushing Fist

07-26-2006, 09:04 AM

WWIII? (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-bosco23jul23,1,3679545.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true)

seems to be a lot of this talk going around...

Colbert's bit was Hee-Larious, anyone see that?

Mas Judt

07-26-2006, 10:27 AM

"9) Great to see you back Monkey Slap, with your insane anti-Islamic paranoia "

Glad to be back. What can I say, it's based upon historical fact and listening to sermons from the mosques and the lessons taught in orthodox islamic schools. I have good reason to be paranoid.

This of course, does not make all the people in the islamic areas bad people. Hell, this Lebanon thing is tearing me up, as some of the most modern, enlightened folks I've ever met from the Middle-East came from Lebanon.

When the Syrians left, we missed a real diplomatic opportunnity to prop up the democratically elected government through proxy - the Germans, Hungarians, whomever. Just not the French, as they just seem good at stealing money and saying that is how they defend the thirld-world from US 'imperialism'.

But I digress. Helping the Lebanese would have created a barrier in the region.

Now it is too late. And the 'Army of God' uses innocents as human shields. Which, against Israeli weapons is about as good as tissue paper.

I don't have a good answer for this, but I fear for the innocents in Lebanon.

SimonM

07-26-2006, 03:25 PM

Speaking of Lebanon Israel just went and deliberately bombed a UN outpost. How's that for insane?

I mean they used guided missiles on an installation that has been UN held since the 70's. I don't care what "Mr. Wants to get into the history books as the guy who started WWIII" Olmert says, that was an intentional attack.

The question is... why?

David Jamieson

07-26-2006, 03:57 PM

good question.

there is a possibility of human error.

there is a possibility that the US is using Israel as a puppet to get things started so they can a do an all out war in the middle east and eradicate all opposition to the cause of the new world order, IE hezbollah, al q, al aqsa, hamas and unfriendly dictatorship governments.

the real danger of this is the politicizing of human strife.

Lebanese citizens do not by any means deserve to be attacked.
But then, neither do Isareli citizens.

the cause has been lost over years of hate and aggression towards each other with small punctuations of peace and ceasefires here and there.

I think what Dr.Rice said was very telling in regards to how things will just be protracted and continue on teh same path if there is yet another ceasfire.

lebanon's army and government should be moving Hezbollah out of their country.
They won't though.
This could all very well backfire on Israel and the US of course despite their military power and conviction to get rid of these terrorist groups, by damaging civ populations they create hatred towards themselves and support for the groups that are at the root of the problem.

It is an ugly ugly situation and in all honesty, I think W is completely off base on pretty much all foreign policies and power grabs he makes.

It is complex and simple at the same time. Complex at a cause an effect level and simple at a level of common sense and decency of which no group seems to have much of after following this.

My original thought was that Israel would go in and take out Hezbollah targets to a point where they are no longer a threat.

My view is starting to change over to Isareal is acting as a puppet for the USA in order to ignite a situation in the middle east the will burn for years to come and ensure profit and power for everyone but the people that live there Isaraeli and Arab alike.

Royal Dragon

07-26-2006, 08:35 PM

My view is starting to change over to Isareal is acting as a puppet for the USA in order to ignite a situation in the middle east the will burn for years to come and ensure profit and power for everyone but the people that live there Isaraeli and Arab alike

Reply]
How? Did Bush call isreal, and order them to have a foriegn contry start launcing missiles into thier cities? Does Isreal have the power to make another entity attack them out of the clear blue sky?

emisosa

07-27-2006, 08:39 AM

How? Did Bush call isreal, and order them to have a foriegn contry start launcing missiles into thier cities? Does Isreal have the power to make another entity attack them out of the clear blue sky?

Bush didn't call Israel, they just supported them, and gave an ok to their attacks saying that "Israel has a rigth to defend itself". That unfortunate statement implies that Bush is biased towards Israel, supports their use of force, and won't be claiming a cease fire anytime soon. Nowadays, a statement like that from an American president kills hundreds of lifes. I know what hamas does, and how they killed Israelis as well, but its clear that an attack in such scale and excesive use of force by Israel wasn't necessary and will do nothing but seed more terrorism and hatred among everyone. Israel seems to be a good factory of terrorists this days. (US too).
Actually, many countries are ignting this situation, like Iran and Syria in one side and the U.S on the other, trying to make Israel and Lebanon start a crisis in the area...
Argentinian writer Jose Hernandes wrote about a father talking to his sons:
"The brethren be united, that is the First Law, have true union all time, because if among themselves they fight, THEY WILL DEVOURED BY THE PEOPLE OUTSIDE" Martin Fierro by Jose Hernandes

Crushing Fist

07-27-2006, 09:18 AM

"Beware your enemies, for you shall become them."

Israel is no one's "Puppet'

and they were not attacked "out of the clear blue sky"

hello neighbor...can you say FUBAR?

I knew you could :)

Mas Judt

07-27-2006, 09:54 AM

Quo Vadis?

Crushing Fist

07-27-2006, 11:01 AM

Quo Bono?

;)

SimonM

07-27-2006, 03:15 PM

The USA blocked Chinese efforts to put a formal statement condemning the Israeli attack of the UN station forward through the security council.

Finnland, Austria and China are ****ed. Stephen Harper is the worst PM we've had since WLMK so he's (of course) said nothing.

emisosa

07-27-2006, 03:33 PM

The USA blocked Chinese efforts to put a formal statement condemning the Israeli attack of the UN station forward through the security council.

Shhhhh... we can complain when Hezbollah kills innocents, but not when Israelis do. Its just they way it is.

"The brethren be united, that is the First Law, have true union all time, because if among themselves they fight, THEY WILL DEVOURED BY THE PEOPLE OUTSIDE" Martin Fierro by Jose Hernandes

Royal Dragon

07-27-2006, 08:24 PM

Bush didn't call Israel, they just supported them, and gave an ok to their attacks saying that "Israel has a rigth to defend itself". That unfortunate statement implies that Bush is biased towards Israel, supports their use of force, and won't be claiming a cease fire anytime soon.

Reply]
So They DON'T have a right to defend themselves? What are you goofy? If I had a small country, and my nighbors decided to launch missiles into it killing innocnet civilians, are you saying I should just sit back, read the paper and pretend not to notice so some Nob on a Kung Fu forum won't make stupid accusations that I am a puppet of the US for trying to protect my people?

No, I'm gonna fight back, and keep doing so untill my people are safe. if that means killing everyone even remotely related to my attackers, then I'm gonna do it. Better them than me!

How does that make Bush biased anyway? That comment was just plain dumb.

SimonM

07-27-2006, 09:27 PM

So what you are saying is that Lebanon should let it's army join forces with Hezbolah and sock one to Israel for invading their country?

Sounds like a plan! :D

Crushing Fist

07-28-2006, 06:28 AM

as I was saying...

Jawad Najem, a surgeon at the hospital, says patients admitted on Sunday were burn cases that resulted from phosphorus incendiary weapons.

The Geneva Conventions ban using white phosphorous as an incendiary weapon against civilian populations and in air attacks against military forces in civilian areas.

he Sarours were taken by taxi to the Tyre port because the Lebanese Red Cross had suspended operations outside the city proper because Israeli jets on Sunday blasted two ambulances with rockets, said Ali Deebe, a Red Cross spokesperson in Tyre.

One ambulance had gone south of Tyre to meet an incoming ambulance and transfer the wounded onward to the hospital.

The rocket, Deebe said, had wounded six ambulance workers and three civilians - an 11- year-old boy, an elderly woman and a man.

"One of the rockets hit right in the middle of the big red cross that was painted on top of the ambulance. This is a clear violation of humanitarian law, of international law," he said.

Doctors rendering medical aid to civilians, who suffered from bombardments in Sayda city, said Israel used chemical weapons during the air strikes (APA).

They say it is obvious from large wounds and burnings on the dead bodies. The matter is no blooding, cutting wounds have been founded on the dead bodies during the bombardments in Sayda. Most of them died of small burning wounds on their stomachs.
Doctors say substances more powerful than phosphors were used in making of these chemical weapons./APA/

Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid that he said exhibited such wounds. He has taken samples from the bodies to test for what killed them. He believes it is a chemical.

Dr Cham said the bodies of some victims were "black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt … If you burnt someone with petrol, their hair would burn and their skin would burn down to the bone. The Israelis are 100 per cent using chemical weapons."

lovely

SimonM

07-28-2006, 07:35 AM

Well wanting free reign to violate the geneva convention would be one reason to eliminate some inconvenient UN observers except that their Bro W has their back in the security council so the UN really wasn't a threat to Israel before this.

emisosa

07-28-2006, 07:43 AM

If I had a small country, and my nighbors decided to launch missiles into it killing innocnet civilians, are you saying I should just sit back, read the paper and pretend not to notice ?No, I'm gonna fight back, and keep doing so untill my people are safe. if that means killing everyone even remotely related to my attackers, then I'm gonna do it. Better them than me!
How does that make Bush biased anyway? That comment was just plain dumb.

No need to insult, this is not some highschool backyard... we are adults here.
Excesive use of force is being supported by U.S. you should read the papers but read between the lines. While we discuss Lebanon, North Korea is arming, Iran, Al Quaeda recruiting.....
Al Zawahiri must be thanking Israel and the U.S. for doing such a great job. Now many new recruits will join Al quaeda.
Even nations are now supporting their cause. The "axis of evil" is now ready to join lebanon, and how long will it take for the U.S. to join too?
Do they really think that Israel has a right to kill innocents? bomb beirut, throw phosphorous to childrens? attack U.N. outposts? and igniting a situation that can become a major holocaust?
In a couple of years, when those terrorist cells gain more power out of this, we won't feel the same way about the way the U.S. is handling this conflict...

David Jamieson

07-28-2006, 07:53 AM

Before we wade into teh minutia of claims of chemical weapons etc etc.

Consider that Hezbollah, despite all the propoganda in favour of their cause have continued to launch 100-150 and sometimes more rockets everyday into the civilian areas of Isareal such as teh city of Haifa.

Consider that Israel has stripped back it's plan to invade Lebanon with Ground forces and is attempting to solution this in another way.

Consider that Hezbollah, and the countries that support it weapon wise and what not (Syria and Iran) do not recognize it's(Israels) right to exist.

Consider that this was sparked by Hexbollah kidnapping Israeli soldiers and demanding the release of their members from Israeli prisons.

Did you know that Hezbollah is claiming that Israel is keeping thousands of woman and children prisoners in their jails? :rolleyes:

Hezbollah is making a lotta ridiculous claims like that that are obviously untrue and proovably untrue. Israel has returned prisoners to them before to the tune of 1000 fighters (men who actively attacked Israel in terror strikes) for 3 soldiers.

Lebanon is in a predicament, and yet, they continue to allow Syria and Hezbollah have the run of their country and they continue to give Hezbollah impunity in the strikes against Israel from within their borders.

When bombs blow up, people die. Hezbollah have a habit of hiding in innocent peoples houses and launching rockets from them. Hezbollah will also place launchers next to UN stations or close by, in case anyone was wondering what happened there.

I am truly sory for the inocent Israelis and Lebanese who have met thier end in a very bad way in this conflict, but it is Israel that is showing restraint.

Groups such as Hezbollah, Al Aqsa, etc etc etc have to go to establish lasting peace in the area. You don't think Israel has a right to exist? You think they should have their cafe's blown up and their citizens living under constant threat of rockets or suicide bombers?

Get real. The UN, Canada, the USA and Britain and other countries will aid Israel long before they aid a known terrorist faction who's only agenda is the destruction of Israel and teh death of innocents. Their only tool of power is terror.

they are a relic and must be removed by whatever means in my opinion.

It is highly complex, but watch for some surprises over the next while.

Have you seen pictures of the Israeli dead used for propaganda purposes?
Think about that for a second.

I'm having a hard time grasping why anyone in our free countries that do not have to live in this outrageous circumstance and fear would support the actions of such groups as hezbollah and it's ilk. That's to me just retarded on so many levels.

David Jamieson

07-28-2006, 09:02 AM

oh, and mr punch can go f@ck himself sideways.

tell me, do you think you'll hold to teh same views in 5 years as you hold now?
keep your shyte to yourself. goof.

MasterKiller

07-28-2006, 09:15 AM

So They DON'T have a right to defend themselves? What are you goofy? If I had a small country, and my nighbors decided to launch missiles into it killing innocnet civilians, are you saying I should just sit back, read the paper and pretend not to notice so some Nob on a Kung Fu forum won't make stupid accusations that I am a puppet of the US for trying to protect my people?

No, I'm gonna fight back, and keep doing so untill my people are safe. if that means killing everyone even remotely related to my attackers, then I'm gonna do it. Better them than me!

You do realize that Israel started the bombing campiagn because Hezbollah kidnapped some soldiers in an effort to leverage a prisoner exchange, don't you? Sure, they killed a couple of Israeli soldiers in the process, which was wrong, but I don't think it warrants the response Israel provided.

The fact is, Bush admin and Israel were very eager to remove Hezbollah from power after they were democratically elected. This was an opportunity they could not pass up, very reminiscent of their decision to invade Iraq.

David Jamieson

07-28-2006, 09:17 AM

um, Hezbollah wasn't elected to anything. They're a militant group to most of the world.

you're thinking of Hamas. Which was elected in Palestine.

MasterKiller

07-28-2006, 09:21 AM

Hezbollah is an active participant in the political life and processes of Lebanon (much in the same way as Hamas in Palestinian communities). In 1992, it participated in Lebanese elections for the first time, winning 12 out of 128 seats in parliament. It won 10 seats in 1996, and 8 in 2000. In the general election of 2005, it won 14 seats nationwide, and an Amal-Hezbollah alliance won all 23 seats in Southern Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

emisosa

07-28-2006, 09:22 AM

Hezbollah have a habit of hiding in innocent peoples houses and launching rockets.......... continued to launch 100-150 and sometimes more rockets everyday ...
So, if in the streets there's a criminal holding a baby as shield, then you shoot them both??
You forget that media also sais that Israel killed 500 people in 12 days.. but lets not get into numbers... There are inocents killed in both countries...
I don't care about the media's figures.. because they are more likely to be biased or untruth... Lets just look at the facts..
As well as i say that Israel shouldn't be doing this, i also think that Hezbollah shouldn't throw missiles to northern israel. I'd love seeing Hezbollah disarmed, but its an impossible task.. or at least its not possible that way.
U.S. couldnt do it with al quaeda in Afghanistan... The same now with Israel in Lebanon.
Because, if you follow that line of thought, then Northern Ireland should be invaded and its cities bombed to stop IRA ? Is this the way to stop terrorism? i think not. It is the best way to ignite terrorism. The whole international comunity should look for a different way to fix this. We will regret this in years to come.
We are thousands of miles away from this countries, so i cannot say who is right and whos wrong.. who's defending itself and who's attacking...
Do you guys honestly believe that bombing Lebanon will solve Israel problems?? or make them worst, for them and for the whole world? Its a very irresponsible attitude to think that it is. Its very dumb to think that the "nuke em' all" idea will help bring peace in the area. These guys are terrorists, they have cells all over the world, they operate in many countries. And this way you help them recruit. Ok, they won't be in lebanon anymore... so what?

David Jamieson

07-28-2006, 09:49 AM

yes hezbollah has members in lebanese government, but they are not "the" government of lebanon. Unlike hamas, which is "the" government for the palestinian occupied territories.

emisosa, what I'm saying is Hezbollah are scumbags. don't put words in my mouth.

do you think it's ok that they kill babies and civs? what's your point?

TaiChiBob

07-28-2006, 10:10 AM

Greetings..

Alliances and coalitions are forming that are contrary to the best interests of human-kind.. some are desirable at first glance, others are observably detrimental.. at the core of the issue, is anyone's (or, any group's) belief that they are superior to another in some way.. To deny anyone's right to exist is an abomination to nature, the same nature that nurtures human existence.. This is a turning point in the history of civilization, a call to action for those that believe in every person's right to exist.. admittedly, that right has, as its obligation, the consensus of all peoples to enforce peaceful coexistence.. hence, it becomes necessary to "prune the tree of humanity", or.. we chance the demise of the tree itself.. There are ideologies that find it preferable to end civilization rather than see their own ideology subjugated, and they accept no compromise.. those are the rotting branches on our "tree of life" and must be pruned.. Do it now, or we set the stage for conflict on a global scale.. Sad, but true...

Be well..

emisosa

07-28-2006, 11:21 AM

what I'm saying is Hezbollah are scumbags. don't put words in my mouth. Do you think it's ok that they kill babies and civs? what's your point?
Israelis and Hezbollah are killing babies and civilians... I can't say who's a scumbag and who's not. They both have their reasons to be against the other.

I don't have enough information, and the only source i have (CNN, BBC, etc..) won't show enough info to judge them. This is the key issue IMO. People getting to such conclusions only from the media.

Please don't start saying the attrocities Hezbollah did, cos' i heard of them, and i'm sure we can dig things on Israelis too... And in the end, it will be a fight for who's the worst. And this is not what we should be discussing. We should be discussing how to resolve this conflict without shedding more blood.
Do you really think you can get to such conclusions and labels to a group of people with the information you was given by the media?
Don't believe the hipe.

This is unexpected to me, and i feel very happy about it:
Today President Bush said he would back a U.N. resolution, deployment of
multinational force, to end Middle East crisis.

EXCELLENT!

Ou Ji

07-28-2006, 11:23 AM

Yes. Next question.

Fei jiao

07-28-2006, 11:28 AM

Both sides have the right to defend themselves, but anyone who claims Israel's response was proportional is either completely blind or dangerously biased.

It's like: my neighbor threw a rock in my window, so in retalliation I'm going to burn his house, while I'm at it why don't I burn the whole block! Come on! :rolleyes:

emisosa

07-28-2006, 11:28 AM

There are ideologies that find it preferable to end civilization rather than see their own ideology subjugated, and they accept no compromise.. those are the rotting branches on our "tree of life" and must be pruned..

IMO Life is not as simple as a tree, and you can't cut the branches of mankind that you don't like. Its utopic.
Or maybe, following your analogy, IMO the branches will grow back. The once you just cut are the result of previous pruning.

Royal Dragon

07-28-2006, 01:03 PM

Missles are not rocks, and they are not stopping either. if they were to STOP launching missles into isareal, maybe there would be a chance for peace, but last I heard they are fireing them deeper, and deeper into isareal, as we speak.

So, no Isareal is not over reacting, if anything they are going easy on thier attackers.

Fei jiao

07-28-2006, 03:43 PM

So, no Isareal is not over reacting, if anything they are going easy on thier attackers.

Yeah, right! what's the body count on both sides again? Nooooo, not over reacting at all. :rolleyes:

David Jamieson

07-28-2006, 05:28 PM

Body count?

If it was only one person on each side of the conflict, it would be a bad thing.

It's not a freaking score card event dude.

If someone told you you don't have a right to exist and should be rubbed out, then proceded to attack your citizens with car bombs, suitcase bombs, kidnappings, suicide bombers and now rocket attacks, would you keep count?

Israel has the ways and means of utterly wiping lebanon of the face of the earth. Are they doing that? No. They are attempting to use surgical strike techniques and yes they are making errors, like anyone does, but they are not wholesale destroying the country.

are you watching the news? They've damaged infrastructure, which frankly, who cares about a bridge or a couple of buildings? They are directing their attacks at Hezbollah targets and strategic places to impede evasion by the militants.

what are hezbollah attacking? soldiers if they are near but mostly they are launching rockets at innocents not military installations.

It is worthy of note that Israel is not using pictures of their dead to sensationalize and propogandize what is going. Unlike Hezbollah who use the pictures of dead as props.

Mr Punch

07-28-2006, 06:09 PM

It's not a freaking score card event dude.The irony of you accusing someone else of oversimplistic BS before the rest of your post is very very rich.

If someone told you you don't have a right to exist and should be rubbed out, then proceded to attack your citizens with car bombs, suitcase bombs, kidnappings, suicide bombers and now rocket attacks, would you keep count?So if someone told you you were harbouring known terrorists who had also been threatening and bullying your people, and then destroyed your home, your town and a couple of members of your family, would you react nicely? Would your sons? Israel's action is repeating what Iraq did, which as most observers from the US military now admit (even if they didn't suspect it before) is creating a huge problem in providing a focus for future disenfranchised citizens to join the terrorists.

But that's enough rhetorical BS from both of us!

Specifically: Who is your 'someone' Jamieson?

Would that have been the citizens of Gaza, who Israel is simultaneously bombarding? Some of them I'm sure feel the way you implied. But the Israelis are not giving Abbas (their lawfully and democratically elected leader) a chance. Against all odds, he managed to secure a 14-month successful ceasefire from Hamas and officially recognised the Israeli state (which given opposition from his own popular support base must have taken balls the size of Gaza itself). And now, in the thick of another Israeli bombardment, he has secured another ceasefire and brokered the release of the (Syrian branch-!)Hamas-held hostage.

Or would that be the citizens of the Lebanon?

Or would that be your convenient 'someone' to include elected Hamas officials, Syrian Hamas extremists, Iranian Hizbollah extremists, new Lebanese Hizbollah sympathisers, Lebanese and Gazan citizens and the rest of the d@mn darkies in the area?!

They are attempting to use surgical strike techniques and yes they are making errors, like anyone does, but they are not wholesale destroying the country.

are you watching the news? They've damaged infrastructure, which frankly, who cares about a bridge or a couple of buildings? They are directing their attacks at Hezbollah targets and strategic places to impede evasion by the militants.WTF are you smoking? :D I'll stay well clear of that pal.

Who cares about bridges and buildings? Well, if the bridge will get 12 members of my family to be able to leave the home they've lived in all their lives (which had already been destroyed in two previous wars and then rebuilt through at great expense and hard work of everyone involved, leaving the family in abject poverty but hey, at elast they have a house, right?) like that lovely invading force commanded so they can surgically whack a couple of missiles through its roof in safety, then suddenly poof well that's gone with my house... I think I care! And so who cares about buildings? Shall I firebomb your house and see if you care? :rolleyes: D@mn, you're obtuse.

Back to you mate, the surgical nature of the strikes makes no difference if your targets are chosen with extreme prejudice. If you tell families of ordinary citizens they should leave the area, before surgically taking out any SUVs because they might hold Hizbollah, you are going to incinerate those families with SUVs too (a fairly common mode of transport for a family the size of an extended Lebanese one). So given the generosity of the Israelis in allowing your family to leave, how the hell are you supposed to do that, without using your family car or any roads or bridges?

Not to mention the twelve surgical strikes it took them to surgically wipe out that UN observation post that had been there for over thirty years.

And on top of it all, if the infrastructure is damaged much more - causing more and more people to worry about who has control of the smouldering remains, we'll have civil war in Lebanon and a very high chance that the democratically elected (and relatively reasonable and stable) government int he Lebanon will be overthrown and the country will return to extremist despots. :eek: Go go Israel! :rolleyes:

Mr Punch

07-28-2006, 06:17 PM

And this was in response to my previous post which was fairly objective I thought, and was certainly reasoned and not insulting to anyone... to such an extent that fa_jing who holds different opinions to me could see what I was talking about if not agree.

So much for whoever it was who said this isn't a schoolyard we're all adults here. Mr Jamieson seems to have missed that little memorandum.
oh, and mr punch can go f@ck himself sideways.

tell me, do you think you'll hold to teh same views in 5 years as you hold now?
keep your shyte to yourself. goof.You see Jamieson, I prefer arguing with chickenhawks and long-term conservatives than your born-again flip-floppers. They're far more rational, and even their insults are more amusing than this rabid filth.

Which particular point of mine were you taking issue with? (And yes that's asking about my previous post, not the one above.)

And I don't know if I'll hold the same point of view. I think so. But I'm quite open to having my mind changed by reasonable argument.

Fei jiao

07-28-2006, 07:26 PM

Dragon Warrior

07-28-2006, 07:47 PM

In my opinion, it is obvious that Israel wants peace and Lebanon wants peace. The problem is that Hezbollah does not want peace and will do whatever they can to keep the conflict going.

Now, can we figure out a way to stop Hezbollah.

I doubt it.

Merryprankster

07-30-2006, 05:37 PM

I see decline because the country spends in excess of 400 billion to maintain supremacy. If the American dream was so great there would not be so many enemies of the country. Or do you still think that people hate America because it is so great. And that greatness comes from constant war and an unequal global footing that allows the country to be so properous. While America became a superpower, it required turning a large segement of the global population into abject poverty.

No. I think people hate America for a variety of reasons. In some cases, it is because their traditional way of existance is being threatened by encroaching globalism. And while that globalism is multi-cultural in nature, it wears an American face.

In others, I think it's because they see a discordance (as Crushing Fist pointed out) between what the American message is, and what the United States does.

In others, it's because people are ignorant and woefully misinformed. There is, for instance, a large contingent of people in the world who believe that the major tsunami last year was caused by Israeli nuclear weapons tests backed with U.S. support.

Ultimately, this is all about power and how somebody uses it. Unilateral action by the United States smacks of American exceptionalism doctrine, which should be appalling to anybody, and is certainly scary and frightening to anybody paying attention. It also dredges up that often, but improperly used, word "imperialism."

Why do people hate the United States - for the above and other reasons. We would do better to submit our power to greater international oversight - needed now, more than ever, without an opposing superpower.

CF - I don't know how to be any clearer with what I said: Support of other democratic governments is NOT/NOT an imperative of any other democratic government, if such support is contrary to its interests.

Do I think/wish that we would exercise our power in ways to try and nudge autocratic governments in the right direction? You bet.

But then again, I don't think we should cut anybody off diplomatically, ever.

BTW, do some research on Chavez, and maybe you'll find more reasons to dislike him. I demonize him because I know his history - TWO unsuccessful coups - and I don't trust him. I demonize him because I watch him claim to be helping the poor, while he spends more and more on his military daily, keeps interest rates artificially low, and runs inflation through the roof - all of which will keep more people in abject poverty. I demonize him because both the UN and the EU noted that while the latest election was ACCURATE in its counting of the votes, voter turnout and confidence in the electoral process was at an all time low...never mind the continuous reports of stifling freedom of speech.... or the recent proposal from his office that he might do away with presidential term limits. Yeah...that's SUPER democratic.

Of course, I suppose all the above data is just propoganda and he's really a super good guy - just like that Che guy, who used to kill families execution style :rolleyes:

Whatever GWBs faults - and there's a list too long to mention - I am confident he will leave office at the end of his term and not try to rewrite term limit provisions or force stations to carry THREE or more hours a day of his own direct to the nation program.

Crushing Fist

07-31-2006, 08:24 AM

CF - I don't know how to be any clearer with what I said: Support of other democratic governments is NOT/NOT an imperative of any other democratic government, if such support is contrary to its interests.

Do I think/wish that we would exercise our power in ways to try and nudge autocratic governments in the right direction? You bet.

But then again, I don't think we should cut anybody off diplomatically, ever.

I agree completely. This calls into question our current policy of "bombing countries into democracy" don't you think?

Perhaps giving them diebold blackbox voting machines would fix that. :)

Currently we just get all huffy, take our ball, and go home when the elections don't go "our way".

BTW, do some research on Chavez, and maybe you'll find more reasons to dislike him. I demonize him because I know his history - TWO unsuccessful coups - and I don't trust him. I demonize him because I watch him claim to be helping the poor, while he spends more and more on his military daily, keeps interest rates artificially low, and runs inflation through the roof - all of which will keep more people in abject poverty. I demonize him because both the UN and the EU noted that while the latest election was ACCURATE in its counting of the votes, voter turnout and confidence in the electoral process was at an all time low...never mind the continuous reports of stifling freedom of speech.... or the recent proposal from his office that he might do away with presidential term limits. Yeah...that's SUPER democratic.

Of course, I suppose all the above data is just propoganda and he's really a super good guy - just like that Che guy, who used to kill families execution style :rolleyes:

Whatever GWBs faults - and there's a list too long to mention - I am confident he will leave office at the end of his term and not try to rewrite term limit provisions or force stations to carry THREE or more hours a day of his own direct to the nation program.

I'll look around a bit more on Chavez, but help me out here. Are you referring to the coup attempts against him that were openly supported by the US, or to some other coups?

As for the execution style murders... perhaps you have heard of a place called "Nicaragua" and another called "Guatamala" and another called "El Salvador" and another called "Honduras" and yet another called "School of the Americas"

keyword="death squads"

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 08:30 AM

Hezbollah is the problem.
Israel is completely justified in it's attack against them.

Lebanon is a place that has made great strides in the last 10 or so years in restructuring and rebuilding itself.
It seems lost on some of you that Lebanon is not the enemy.

hezbollah has declared itself an enemy of Israel and cowardly hides wherever it can and jeopardizes innocents by setting up in tehir houses to launch rockets into Israel or attacks on Israelis.

Hezbollah should be extinguished. As should AlQ, Al Aqsa, the Taliban and the rest of the misanthropic troglodytes who want to send the whole region into a sixth century caliphate.

I don't feel good about the innocent people who have died on eaither side of the conflict, but I support fully the actions of Israel in their efforts to get rid of these groups.

Crushing Fist

07-31-2006, 08:36 AM

I don't feel good about the innocent people who have died on eaither side of the conflict, but I support fully the actions of Israel in their efforts to get rid of these groups.

as you say Hezbollah is using innocents as human shields...

How do you feel about the statement that Israel is basically "killing hostages"?

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 08:43 AM

as you say Hezbollah is using innocents as human shields...

How do you feel about the statement that Israel is basically "killing hostages"?

How do you feel about Hezbollah? You like them? You support them? You support the groups that deny the right of Israel to exist and since it's inception have set out to kill it's citizenry by whatever means?

If Israel kills members of Hezbollah, then GOOD! If they kill Al Aqsa Martyrs brigade members down to the last then GOOD.
If they kill Al Quaida members down to the last then GOOD!

apparently killing these terrorist organization members is a language they understand seeing as they have closed teh door on negotiation.

Israel should have no mercy on these groups and should utterly destroy themn and I support them in that effort to that end.

Casualties of war are a fact, they are unavoidable and there is no shame in feeling sorrow for the innocent. There is no shame in supporting Israel in their quest to get rid of these fringe elements of jihadist militaristic islam.

How do you feel about the training methods of the US army? How is it possible there would be so many US soldiers commiting criminal acts such as rape and murder in Iraq? What is wrong with the training? What is wrong with the method?

By the way, I don't support the USA in Iraq. Because the Iraqi people have never been a threat. Saddam may have been, but now he's gone. Why is the USA still there?

Mr Punch

07-31-2006, 11:12 AM

Oh I see, it was because of my point 10 in the original post right? That's why you threw your toys out of your cot! Don't let a little needling spoil your fine debating prowess!

Which of my points specifically do you take issue with?

By the way, I don't support the USA in Iraq. Because the Iraqi people have never been a threat. Saddam may have been, but now he's gone. Why is the USA still there?What is the sound of one flip flopping? Or was that a flop flipping? :p

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 11:16 AM

Oh I see, it was because of my point 10 in the original post right? That's why you threw your toys out of your cot! Don't let a little needling spoil your fine debating prowess!

Which of my points specifically do you take issue with?

What is the sound of one flip flopping? Or was that a flop flipping? :p

do you have anything at all to contribute to this thread or is this just about your bitterness towards me because you are intellectually inferior?

I've said where I stand. Please define why my not supporting the invasion of iraq is flip flopping in regards to my position on Israels conflict with Hezbollah and Lebanon being caught in the crossfire?

WinterPalm

07-31-2006, 11:49 AM

Both sides have been going tit for tat for years now. If not this, than something else would have percepitated an all out war.

Israel still illegally occupies regions that do not belong to them. Hezbolla obviously have an agenda bulit from decades of war, strife, poverty, and constant bickering with their Israeli neighbors.
Both kill civilians. Hezbolla do not have the military means or PR abilities to convince us of their innocence like the Israelis do. Heck, rockets just killed dozens of innocent children in Lebanon yesterday. And the US continues to supply them with weapons!:rolleyes: And yet Iran supplies Hezbolla with rockets and firearms. Point being that the real war is not happening. Like much of the last century, the actual nations fighting are not the ones at war: proxy, client, or puppet states or organizations fight the wars of the powerful nations because to risk war between USSR and US, or China and US, would be very destructive.

The UN is irrelevant because of veto powers the elite Security Council members have. Otherwise the US, China, Russia, Israel, etc, would have been condemned many times like the "evil" nations of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

And yeah, Israel can defend itself, much like Lebanon, much like Iraqi citizens, and much like American citizens. But this scam is putting a lot of people in the grave and doing nother whatsoever to further peace.

I saw a piece of lunacy in the newspaper the other day talking about how the UN is only good for diplomacy and that war is better because then it solves everything in the end instead of prolonging it!! The guy was arguing for a might is right attitude that is quickly enveloping the global scene.

Blah, blah, blah...Next.:D

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 12:03 PM

I dunno wp. If the ramifications can be fortold beyond keeping the wars over there in the desert then consider that the poison of the ideologies of militant islam and zionist Israel start infecting the city you live in.

consider the idiologues setting about to do their tasks in your city?

The idea is not that might is right, it is that might makes right

getting rid of terrorist organizations, routing them, completely destroying them by killing their active members is akin to pulling weeds in a garden in my opinion. If you want to keep disease out, you have to destroy it or impede it, or alter it into a more ahrmless and possibly even productrive version.

Take Hamas for instance. Barring they don't return to terrorist ways (which they are) they can act like sinn fein and the ira. Get rid of the militia aspect and strengthen the political wing, thereby legitimizing your voice.

as far as the israeli occupation, I think they have been working towards correcting that for some time, but it is impeded by the bombings, the murders of Israelis etc etc etc and it is maintained as a form of damage control.

To assume that the USA and Israel should be all benevolent and such in the matter of hezbollah is extremely short sighted from where I sit. They are supposed to in perpetuity put up with this crap from these factions?

I don't think I would put up with it and I won't put up with it. It should be stamped out before it spreads and then we can get on with the movements towards peace. So long as those elements exist, tehre cannot be peace is what it comes down to and that's what is being said by our prime minister, by the US and by Israel and I guess it is the rest of the world in agreeance seeing as no one but the terrorist sponsor states are standing up for hezbollah and their maniacal agenda.

Mr Punch

07-31-2006, 12:13 PM

do you have anything at all to contribute to this thread or is this just about your bitterness towards me because you are intellectually inferior?I contributed. You told me to **** myself.

You say I'm intellectually inferior, yet I've dealt with some of your points and you've come out with childish insults and schoolyard competitiveness.

You're showing yourself up.

I've said where I stand. Please define why my not supporting the invasion of iraq is flip flopping in regards to my position on Israels conflict with Hezbollah and Lebanon being caught in the crossfire?I didn't say anything about your position on Iraq in relationship to your position on Israel being flip-flopping. But over the last few years your position on Iraq and many other things has changed a lot. Modifying your opinion and keeping an open mind is good, but you've always gone with the next knee-jerk BS, and everybody who has read this board for the last five years or so know it's true pal: since you quit moderating you've aggresively flip-flopped on just about everything.

And since you're asking me to define whatever about your position, which would take me too long to be bothered searching through the archives to find your inane babble, why don't you answer my question which was: which of my points do you specifically take issue with (apart from No 10! :p )? Or are you just going to prove your intellectual superiority again by spouting more filth?

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 12:23 PM

I contributed. You told me to **** myself.

You say I'm intellectually inferior, yet I've dealt with some of your points and you've come out with childish insults and schoolyard competitiveness.

You're showing yourself up.

I didn't say anything about your position on Iraq in relationship to your position on Israel being flip-flopping. But over the last few years your position on Iraq and many other things has changed a lot. Modifying your opinion and keeping an open mind is good, but you've always gone with the next knee-jerk BS, and everybody who has read this board for the last five years or so know it's true pal: since you quit moderating you've aggresively flip-flopped on just about everything.

And since you're asking me to define whatever about your position, which would take me too long to be bothered searching through the archives to find your inane babble, why don't you answer my question which was: which of my points do you specifically take issue with (apart from No 10! :p )? Or are you just going to prove your intellectual superiority again by spouting more filth?

here you are again saying nothing, showing no points and exhibiting the bile stuck in your craw because you simply can't answer my questions, can't speak to my points and instead opt to fixate on me as a person who you can personally hate. You are a sorry sorry little person aren't you. I think I will have fun with you for a couple of reasons.

I am indifferent to you. That means I don't really care what you say or think or do or even that you exist of do not. I will simply use you as an exercise in defining what is and what is not empty and idiotic.

People like you are useful as they can clearly demonstrate that which doesn't matter and that which should be scraped away from the shoe so as to not mess up the otherwise reasonably clean carpet of thought that the rest of us are walking on.

still wanna play kid? I got lots more.

soi now it's your turn to let out a few goo goo gah gahs and a couple of invectives then some back peddaling and then you'll dissappear for a while and complain about me or soomeone else somewhere else. :rolleyes:

loser. lol

emisosa

07-31-2006, 01:36 PM

In others, it's because people are ignorant and woefully misinformed......

....BTW, do some research on Chavez, and maybe you'll find more reasons to dislike him. I demonize him because I know his history - TWO unsuccessful coups

Before you keep saying that people is missinformed, and taking conclusions on South America from the comfort of your couch, please read this information published by the U.S. Dep of State. (click on "A. Overview: Covert Action in Chile ") This is just an example of american foreign policies and the type of things you will hear in 20 years about the present.

Click here... (http://foia.state.gov/Reports/ChurchReport.asp#A.%20Overview:%20Cover%20Action%2 0in%20Chile)

And IMO, people doesn't hates America, just its foreign policies.

The real danger are THE ignorant chesseburger Americans believing whatever they see in the media, they vote.
There should be an international fund to educate U.S. population on politics and foreign affairs, because its a huge responsability to their sholders. Or otherwise, if U.S. chooses to continue to act as the "World's providers of freedom" the whole world should be able to vote in the American Elections and get it over with, because while Americans have a president, the rest of the world have a dictator. (look at the definition of dictator before replying this)

To those that don't wanna read the article, here are some nice quotes on the doc:

"Covert United States involvement in Chile in the decade between 1963 and 1973 was extensive and continuous. The Central Intelligence Agency spent three million dollars in an effort to influence the outcome of the 1964 Chilean presidential elections. Eight million dollars was spent, covertly, in the three years between 1970 and the military coup in September 1973, with over three million dollars expended in fiscal year 1972 alone."

"It financed activities covering a broad spectrum, from simple propaganda manipulation of the press to large-scale support for Chilean political parties, from public opinion polls to direct attempts to foment a military coup. The scope of "normal" activities of the CIA Station in Santiago included placement of Station-dictated material in the Chilean media through propaganda assets, direct support of publications, and efforts to oppose communist and left-wing influence in student, peasant and labor organizations"

"When the coup attempt failed and Allende was inaugurated President, the CIA was authorized by the 40 Committee to fund groups in opposition to Allende in Chile. The effort was massive. Eight million dollars was spent in the three years between the 1970 election and the military coup in September 1973. Money was furnished to media organizations, to opposition political parties and, in limited amounts, to private sector organizations. "

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 01:48 PM

political ideologies by weight.

the USA runs a democracy. even poor people can be fat in america.

china is commie. poor people are most certainly not fat there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

every country runs covert ops in other countries that may effect it economically, polticaly or militaristically.

Many south american countries are run as dictatorships. some benign, others a little more dark. Chile is a good example of one of the darker dictatorships. Argentina and it's dissapearances is another good example, drug cartels run bolivia and colombia and the essential inability to shed the mentality in south america is what holds it back from becoming 1st world nations, not the foreign policies of the USA. South America has an opportunity to become economically powerful and a global contributor. They gotta shed the idea that someone will do it for them because in that respect, they wind up with a dictator like Chavez or a commie military group like the Farq running their country for them.

The fundamental tennats of democracy are lost opn much of south america. It is unfortunate because it's not like it doesn't have resources or population to properly industrialize. In my opinion, Brazil is the furthest along as far as development goes with oethrs catching up. Chavez is just another strong arm dictator who takes advantage of W's gaffs to make himself look better. In reality, what is he really doing for his country?

emisosa

07-31-2006, 02:02 PM

I agree with your point of view of Latin America, though, you gotta admit that to those that aren't run by dictators are hurt by U.S. foreign policies. The International Monetary Fund is a great example. They sent Argentina to disaster until it became a high political cost to its president to continue to "accept support" by IMF (people ended up kicking the president out litterally). And you gotta know where IMF comes from and who runs it.
I know that part of the problem is a matter of Latin America's culture. But i also know what "foreign support" did.
The Argentinian dirty war was supported and probably ignited by the U.S. just as Chile's coup de etat, and 30,000 people ended up missing/tortured/killed.
No matter what type of idelogy you have, this type of involvement in another country is horrible.

every country runs covert ops in other countries that may effect it economically, polticaly or militaristically.

Do you think so? Did you read the article? is this the type of covert ops that you may expect from any 1st world country? Would you like to have that type of covert op , with its results, in your country?

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 02:13 PM

I didn't say I agree with covert ops. But I do understand the idea of their necessity.

The execution of them may very well be flawed in some or even many cases.
This doesn't negate the idea that every country has agents in it from every other country.

The latin american culture is partly to blame for the mess that south america is in, but certainly not wholly to blame. It is entirely possible to get up and running highly succeessful countries or even unions of several countries such as we see in europe or in North America. Mexico is rising quickly and if it can maintain it's form of government as it's enjoyed for the last 6 years and allow it to grow and become a true democracy, a true government of the people then I think it will be the catalyst for all latin american countries to aspire to.

It is very important that Mexico succeeds and does not fall back into the quagmire of assassinations and power struggles ultimately topped by a 75 year borderline dictatorial government that they experienced right up until the new millenium.

I really hope they can make it. It will be huge if they do.

I am aware of the many since de-classified operations that the USA has carried out over the years to thwart communism and hostile governments from taking root throughout central and south america. I do not agree with the execution of a lot of these operations, but their necessity in principle is not lost on me.

sometimes, bad things produce good results. and vice versa...

Chavez is anything but the benevolent philanthropist his handlers would have you believe he is. However, he is the one in power and he was democratically elected and ergo deserves a chance to steer venezuela towards success.

Being at odds with the US isn't really a significant barrier, but he plays up the nonsense points all to often. The nazi comparisons are as silly coming from him as they are being directed at him. Had Pat robertson kept his stupid fat mouth shut, we'd probably be hearing a lot less from Chavez, but no, d1ckheads like Robertson and his ilk are given a voice in the USA for some reason, probably the reality tv mentality of the media salespeople. who knows.

Kristoffer

07-31-2006, 02:32 PM

dont u ppl get cramps in ur fingers, not ever?

emisosa

07-31-2006, 02:32 PM

Venezuela with its potential for extraordinary wealth which ought to have a standard of living among the highest in the world, instead struggles through an atrocious crisis. Of course, it’s no accident that Chávez is in power. He was put in power by the vote of a large majority of Venezuelans who were totally dissatisfied and disgusted with the democracy they had. A democracy in name only, at the twilight of which corruption reigned in a truly vertiginous manner eliminating for the majority of Venezuelans any possibility of realizing their expectations and dreams and enriching the tiny minority entrenched in power.

The problem lies in the distrust that several foreign modern incursions built(covert and clandestine actions). Now its happening all over again. People goes politically leftwing, due to a real threat from the 1st world. If the international comunity wants to help latin america, it should be by controlling its companies investments there. How they exploit natural resources and its economy.

Just like you are speaking about Latin America, In Spain in 1958, it was common to hear people say:“The Spanish aren’t ready for democracy. If Franco disappeared, there would be chaos, perhaps a new civil war.”Of course, that isn’t what happened. The dictatorship fell; there was an admirable,you might even say exemplary, transition to democracy; and democracy in Spain has since been very successful. There has been a consensus among the political forces there that has given the country a vital stability that allows Spanish democracy to resist insurrection and coup attempts.
This is how a democracy grows, when you don't have imperialism on top of you, but to your left.

Politics is the art of enrich-ing oneself, the art of robbery; that is thedefinition of politics for an immense major-ity of Latin Americans. They believe thatbecause it has been the truth for a goodpart of our history, and that is the fault ofthe dictatorships.

WinterPalm

07-31-2006, 02:52 PM

The poor are only fat because their diets consist of subsidized potato chips and cheaper than pennies cola. When the carb insanity was exported to the Samoan islands, they too became very fat...so much in fact that it is considered a racist characteristic of Samoans.

Unfortunately I agree that if their families dying means mine aren't then I guess I have to support the cause.:rolleyes:

I don't believe that countries like America are interested in peace. They make way too much money selling the weapons of war...and the dollar is what it comes down to.

Yeah, we've got yahoos screaming in downtown Winnipeg about Israel, and about Lebanon. This new war isn't going to solve anything. The largest most effective military in the world, the NA model, cannot even stop Iraq from chaos. Israel is practially a 3rd tier nations as it is!

David Jamieson

07-31-2006, 05:25 PM

I think that the countries are interested in Peace. I think there are elements at play that jeopardize that. I.E Arms manufacturers/dealers, the pentagon think tanks that employ them and the giant corporations that fuel them.

But the people? Nah, for the most part, the people don't want war. They want to pay their mortgage, keep their job, eat food regularly and have some fun with their families. I think this is true of pretty much any country.

So far, it is the western countries that have made the most strides in achieving this. Did we really do it off the backs of others? I think we did it and maintain it off our own backs and our own ingenuity and our own skills and ingenuity and on top of it all, we in many instances do our best to help those nations that are still struggling to rise up from poverty because of internal strife, corruption, warlord cultures and on and on.

Nigeria is a perfect example of what happens when there is great wealth, a beautiful ship and no qualified captain stepping up to steer it and instead just a bunch of rats eating away at it.

I could site many examples of countries that function with a might makes right mentality that are wholly independent in their actions, have nothing to do with foreign policues of the states or other countries and wallow in their own mire of stupidity because they will not step up.

It's too easy to blame the successful ones when there is failure all around you.
For the west to remain or become uninvolved in these futures is a bigger mistake than to let them try and keep going on their own. It's like abandoning a child in many senses.

mistakes are and will be made, but I think that intentions are towards a greater good overall. It's too easy to demonize. It's too hard to try to understand what must be done and it's even harder to do what must be done.

WinterPalm

07-31-2006, 08:05 PM

So far, it is the western countries that have made the most strides in achieving this. Did we really do it off the backs of others? I think we did it and maintain it off our own backs and our own ingenuity and our own skills and ingenuity and on top of it all, we in many instances do our best to help those nations that are still struggling to rise up from poverty because of internal strife, corruption, warlord cultures and on and on.

Ok, I really think you are trolling now! You've read even one book on this subject? I'm not going to tell you your opionion is wrong, it is, after all, an opinion...but our country was ripped out of the hands of the natives which were pretty much wiped out. Unless you are suggesting the ingenuity is in ripping off, performing criminal activities left, right, and center, and robbing everything and everyone...then you are right about that.

If you don't understand how capitalism works I suggest you catch up! Slave labour from any region of the world? Entire countries forced into practical concentration camps because their only viable land is used for cash crops...which are backed by militaries either direct or via proxy related to western powers. Indian famines, African famines...all when perfectly usable land is around but used to grow Tobacco, coffee, sugar, lettuce for McDonald's!

Each of us has to work and we make a living and do it off our own labour. But don't kid yourself that the security and wealth we experience doesn't come at the cost of much of the rest of the world.

I will suggest several books if you want.

I could site many examples of countries that function with a might makes right mentality that are wholly independent in their actions, have nothing to do with foreign policues of the states or other countries and wallow in their own mire of stupidity because they will not step up.

The only example that even remotely comes to mind is Cuba...and that cannot be true due to international trade. There is no way you could site any examples of this.

You're right that people on the street don't want war.

Merryprankster

07-31-2006, 09:45 PM

Before you keep saying that people is missinformed, and taking conclusions on South America from the comfort of your couch, please read this information published by the U.S. Dep of State. (click on "A. Overview: Covert Action in Chile ") This is just an example of american foreign policies and the type of things you will hear in 20 years about the present.

I will consider that your tone is the result of overall annoyance. If it is directed at me, then I will simply consider what you are saying as willfully obtuse.

Nowhere did I state that the American public was BETTER informed. I was asked why the United States is often disliked in many places in the world. In some cases, it is because they are misinformed - they believe a number of outlandish things, because they do not understand the limitations of power, have a low education level, and are, because of that, credulous in the extreme.

In some cases, it is because they have quite legitimate gripes with U.S. intervention and heavy handedness.

Or some combination of various factors, as I repeatedly said.

I also happen to believe a nifty little encapsulation I once heard with regard to conspiracy and external blame: "The only thing worse than believing that everything is somebody else's fault (or is conspiring against you) is that nobody thinks about you at all."

As a side note, people the world over always will. The exercise of power will ALWAYS **** off some significant portion of the population. This is why I believe in the cloak of international legitimacy. It softens and curbs the use of power, and renders its use less universally threatening.

BTW, I notice that people always cite pre-Church Committee stuff when discussing the CIAs use of covert action.

I wonder why that is...anybody?

Each of us has to work and we make a living and do it off our own labour. But don't kid yourself that the security and wealth we experience doesn't come at the cost of much of the rest of the world.

Get back to me when the Indian government - a nuclear power - chooses to wipe out measles which kills hundreds of thousands of its children each year, and can be prevented with a 15 cent vaccine. MAYBE it's an issue of internal priorities...

Besides, you talk about it as if it's a zero sum game...when game theory itself has conclusively proven that economics is NOT a zero sum game.

and need I remind you that when countries exercise power - be it economic, diplomatic or military - to adjust those internal priorities what the result is? (quick hint - you lose the popularity contest...)

Nigeria is a perfect example of what happens when there is great wealth, a beautiful ship and no qualified captain stepping up to steer it and instead just a bunch of rats eating away at it.

I've gotta ask David, when did you become reasonable?! I find myself agreeing with you more often than not these days.

What you have pointed out here is the classic "single sector natural resource" economy problem that economists have dubbed "the paradox of plenty."

Put simply, when you can suck wealth out of the ground, the incentive to develop other sectors and national infrastructure drops through the toilet, rendering you susceptible to market fluctuations...and, because there is only one source of wealth, whoever controls that wealth wields great power - be it governments or militia.

On a more related note, I watched Munich this weekend. It goes too long. But I latched on to a conversation between Eric Bana's character and an Arab he was sent to kill.

Eric Bana said: Your father's stone houses and olive trees...do you miss them so much? Is that really the future you want for your children?

And the PLO guy said "Yes, absolutely yes."

I was struck at how differently my wife and I interpretted that comment. She perceived that it was about the land, and that they would stop at nothing to get it. I perceived that (because of the context of the conversation) it was a sad commentary on the state of the conflict itself: They would rather sacrifice their childrens futures than concede anything. Ultimately I think my view may be a subset of hers...

David Jamieson

08-01-2006, 07:25 AM

Mr.Punch -you're not fixated? you're not focused? dude :rolleyes: the only person you're responding to is me, generally with vile, bitriol and insult. You make some points that tend to be a bit emotional rather than factual. I say this, because you preface much of your rant with a lot of "ifs".

WP- It is a matter of fact that all countries were taken from an original settler, who found it uninhabited. How did you think countries came into being? The usual process throughout human history is vis a vis conflict. You know what you might find an interesting read? A book called the Popol Vuh which is an ancient text written by a quiche maya. In it is more or less the history of the quiche maya people and how the came to have control over the lands they were in through the destruction and subjication of the p[eople that preceeded them.

The greeks and the spartans, the romans and the visigoths, the english and the scots, the britons and the picts, and so on and so on and so on. Pick any socio-political structure you like and it's a safe bet it was born out of conflict.

Self hating because of superior military power, economic system or whatever doesn't make sense to me. Darwins theory of evolution applie to us as well and not just finches and insects and monkeys. We are also bound to the rule and play it out at complex levels.

The current state of the world is still "conflict with the victor prevailing and creating the new society in place of the old".

Would you have the likes of Hezbollah win the conflict?

In war, people die. It is sad when conflict cannot be resolved diplomatically, but was it Israel who refised to come to the table? Was it Israel denying the right of it's neighbours to exist? Do you think there were no Jews in palestine before the formation of Israel? What do you think of how the world map was redrawn following WW2? WW1?
New borders are created with each conflict. Israel deserves the support of it's allies and it deserves to have a chance to be a country without the constant threat of indiscriminate bombings and killings of it's citizenry by its neighbours such as has been the way it is for decades now.

If you cut the head off the snake, the body will die. In my opinion, that is exactly what must be done with the militant arm of Hezbollah or any of them.

emisosa

08-01-2006, 01:23 PM

mrPunch, David Jamison, please knock it off.. if you wanna insult use private messages. Attain to the subject at hand. WWIII. :cool:
Thanks!

emisosa

08-01-2006, 01:31 PM

dont u ppl get cramps in ur fingers, not ever?
No, but they do hurt sometimes. Its really hard to be a software programmer and doing Kung Fu, the grips are weak and tendons hurt. :o

Crushing Fist

08-01-2006, 01:32 PM

If you cut the head off the snake, the body will die. In my opinion, that is exactly what must be done with the militant arm of Hezbollah or any of them.

I believe this is entirely incorrect.

it is more of a hydra than a snake...

when the head is cut off there is no end of replacements ready to take over.

it is the same as with drug cartels; as long as there is a need, someone will fulfill it.

in both cases, only addressing the root causes can have any real effect.

thus attack the body, and the heads will stop growing back.

The Willow Sword

08-01-2006, 01:47 PM

Needs to be settled by those who are fighting and WE as a nation need to just step back and let them fight and kill each other off. We have already begun to get our citizens out of those regions. Israel doesnt seem to want to listen to the advice of the bush administration lead by Uncle Toms Sister missy condee rice. (boy ill bet she sure feels like an idiot right now after those negotiations).

Its apparent that israel wants a war and so does Hezzbola. so stay out of it, impose sanctions and stay out of the way and let them fight it out until one or the other controls the situation and THEN we re-establish communications and deal with the victorious.
i mean it is touchy enough as it is for us to really DO anything considering that it is well known throughout the muslim world that we support and are allied with Israel(somewhat). We are also Allied with and married to the Saudi Arabian Oil tycoons and royals and THEY as well as a few of our other Muslim "friends" are increasingly becoming VERY uncomfortable at what Israel is doing to south lebannon.

TWS

David Jamieson

08-01-2006, 02:23 PM

TWS- Israel is our ally. Israel is your ally.

Is Lebanon an ally? Do they share your interest and view of the world? Is syria an ally? is radical islam an ally of any of us?

If this issue is not resolved then it will continue to spill on streets all over the world, which in my opinion is exactly what radical islam wants. IE disruption of the western democracies and the destruction of teh state of Israel.

sadly, our world will not be saved by benign alien species who will come and save us and make all our weapons to fail and then have us all overwhelmed with feelings of love for each other. No matter how much Hubbardites want that, it is NOT going to happen.

Israel is deserving of our help. They are deserving of our support and they deserve our assistance in this time of trouble.

It just escapes me why no one commets on the hundreds of rockets Hezbollah is throwing randomly into the Israeli state.

I wonder if any of you understqnd the agenda of Hezbollah and if you did, would you really agree with it, bearing in mind that a big chunk of it is the destruction of Israel and the installment of a caliphate from the mediterranean sea to China.

Why is it lost on some people that Israel trys to make steps towards a palestinian free state only to have this kind of thing happen on a fairly regular basis.

Why is it lost on some people that although diuplomacy is good and has served many an end positively, it is war that defines the civilization we wind up with at the end of the day.

Why is it lost on some people that the USA and western countries ingeneral are not responsible for the pecadillos and or majour failures of a great deal of other countries.

Why is it lost on people that Hezbollah doing the right thing would be to disarm and enter into politicalcircles instead? Do any of you realize that the root of the power hold they do have is terror? This is why they are reluctant to disband their army of suicide bombers which serves no real purpose as a deterent and only murders innocent people with it's actions.

Is it lost on some of you what these groups say loudly and publicly?

I'm not saying we have perfect government or perfect systems, but I am saying I'd rather live under the rule of law that I currently do than have to live in fear of subways getting bombed because some other subway bomber is in jail at the hands of an ally who is in a conundrum.

I don't agree with some of the tactics that Israel has used in Lebanon, but even more so I am dissapointed in the lebanese government to do anything about having a rogue military force wandering around their country with impunity and launching rockets into their neighbours country and using their "sovereign" nation as a hideout fopr terrorists. :rolleyes:

You think that would be cool anywhere at all? wtf is lebanons problem? They should be helping to take out the militant arm of hezbollah which is all about suicide bombings and killing innocents and hiding from real armies and using the dead lebanese children photos as propaganda pieces for their particularly repulsive brand of revenge.

radical islam makes it clear time and again they will not concede the right of Israel to exist as a nation and will continue to launch aggressions against them. How else would you stop such a beligerent group who will not negotiate with reason?

some of you should stop reading rense and snap the f*** out of it.
I have shared that view before, believe me, you can likely find a loit on these forums alone about how i distrust the bush administration (i still do) and how I think this or that alongh the lines of what you're saying here about expansionism and imperialism etc etc. It's not all good, I agree. But to blame Israel for the problems in the middle east is stupid. It's quite obvious who the freaking problem is although the solution may not be quite so obvious.

If only the Usama bin Ladens and Clerics of Islam could have even just a little bit of reason and dummy the lip service they pay to the problem of radical islam. Radical isalm is born from their teachings. They are stupid to think that we are stupid to not see that.

Unfortunately, when reason is not to be used, then it is time for ordinance to make its point. Sad yes, but true.

The Willow Sword

08-01-2006, 08:04 PM

i have a contact in Egypt that i chat with often and she tells me a different story about how things have gone down over there. i would not think that she would lie to me and i do a pretty good job of being objective in the face of all this mess. But she has brought up some points that have me questioning Israel and their tactics towards southern lebannon.

From my egyptian friend's point of view, Israel is constantly encroaching on land that from the eyes of the muslims in that realm do not belong and never belonged to the israelies, and much like the US government the israeli government is trying to push its ideal view of the world on its neighbours and people they deem against their way of life, and the common people are caught up in the middle of it, Getting killed and being maliciously targeted. However hezzbolla is targeting Israel and resorting to the same kind of tactics, but it seems the death toll for the israelies is far less than that of the lebanese people.

sometimes the common folk do not emulate the governments that are tangling with one another, and they have to sit by and eat the sh!t sandwich that is fed to them on both sides of the fence.

As for me i do not know what side to really take in this matter. seems like the issues are way beyond the scope of my understanding but i am not going to just trust what my government tells me nor what i see being reported over there by a biased Media in support of Israel.

as a free thinking and fairly intelligent person i like to get both sides of the issue and not just what the one side thinks about the other. i mean i want to hear it from the poeple who support hezzbolla(which my egyptian friend is sympathetic towards) and i also want to hear form those who support israel. what i dont want to read or hear is the neo con american view of this crisis or the liberal democrat(which i am) view of this crisis. and i am only a liberal democrat because they more represent what my ideals and values are more so than the neo cons repubs. if there was a middle ground in the politics in this country that relfected a balance of both sides rationally then i would be a aprt of that political party, but since there really isnt and you libertarians need to just STFU, i will tend to go more to the left and more towards the side of either diplomacy in this crisis in the middle east or just be outright NEUTRAL in the situation.

what has Israel done for ME lately eh? i mean i am not jewish and i am certainly NOT a christian. and i know that is a BIG part of why we are friends with israel, for most american christians that is the "holy land" and must be protected and preserved from the radicals who would seek to destroy it, HOWEVER the other side of the coin feels the same way about THEIR holy lands and do not wish them to be encroached upon by those who would seek to detsroy or occupy it.
i can see both sides of this matter in the middle east but i do not condone what either side is doing. If they BOTH are too blind and so wrapped up in their religious rhetoric to just sit the fuk down and really TALK and Work differences out and compromise, then they both deserve to obliterate themselves and OUR ROLE in it all in my humble opinion is to take a step back and let them fight and war if they want to. we protect our own citizens over there by getting them out and we stand at a distance and wait till the dust settles.

i have always believed that WE ARE NOT THE WORLD"S POLICE and we should not act as such, especially where we are not welcome. To protect an interest for shear greed and want of money and power and resources is a poor way to go about what we are supposed to be as americans. yes we are capitolists and part of a democracy. But not everyone shares our view and just because they do not doesnt mean that they are out to destroy us. i mean for radical islam to reject and not recognize israel is part of their age old land and religious dispute. The world of radical islam seems to recognize US, even if they do not really care for our politics OR the way we handle ourselves in that region with respect to resources and oil dealings. we have rogue factions of the radical islam mentality that want to see us detsroyed and i THOUGHT we were taking care of those rogue factions when we went into afghanistan to take out bin laden. of course that still has not happened. instead of declaring war on Al queida we declare war on "terrorism":rolleyes: and go gallabanting around and land in iraq and now look at the mess we have created over there, and it was a mess that we should have never created in the process. If we had put most of our resources in to afghanistan and "smoked out" bin laden like bush said we were going to do but didnt, then we would not be in this situation we are now in with iraq. and NOW the right wingers are starting to pull their heads out of their A$$es and realizing that it was a terrible plan and that bush has majorly fuk'd things up for us.
we are hated now more than ever in places that i consider to be the pillar and begiinings of civilization and who have beautiful cultures and people. now these people hate US and equate every american to bush. and we equate every muslim to bin laden. We are all so clouded in our minds and hearts that we fail to see the "PEOPLE" for who the "PEOPLE" are.
Governments are supposed to reflect the mindset of the people but governments do not seem to really do that nowadays now do they? in all regions of the world. It is just men in power playing around with other men of power and we as common folk have to either take a side we dont want for fear of persecution OR we have to sit back with apathy and watch the DumBa$$es in our world governments run the show and dictate to us how we should live and exist. and people are impressionable especially when they are not well educated and we see this mentality throughout the world. from the trailer park trash in our country whose education statistics dont go beyond 6th grade and the primitive people in the regions we are discussing who seem to also not be very well educated and they ALL have to follow what their dictators or presidents or warlords or oil kings and princes say and do.
uhhgh i have been on a typing rant for 30 minutes now, so i will conclude by stating this.
" i love my country, i do not agree with the government that currently runs this country. I love all people of all backgrounds, but i do not agree with some of the actions of those people. I respect ALL countries and religious forms of expression, even though i think some are mentally ill concepts and need reform. In the end we are all just People, trying to live as best we can. we ALL have a desire to better ourselves and to get along with everyone. Not all of us can see reason, but we try and we do our best. My heart goes out to the people of israeal who have to sit and endure this and my heart goes out especially to the people of lebannon who are being blown apart, even though alot of them who are getting killed are not part of the rogue militias there".

Peace and i hope this crisis ends soon,,TWS

David Jamieson

08-01-2006, 08:43 PM

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
I would also say that us arguing about it here does nothing to remedy or solve the situation.

we here, and what we say here has zero effect on what does or what doesn't happen there in that conflict.

the people in the streets waving israeli flags and having shouting matches with others waving lebanese flags on canadian streets has no effect either.

what is being done will continue to be done until it stops. that's the way it is.

I sympathize with the civilians caught in the crossfire in Israel and in Lebanon.

It's sad that we haven't evolved beyond this way, but nevertheless there you have it and there it is. I do not for one second support hezbollah or any groups like it such as I've mentioned in this thread. I believe they must be put down and they refuse to be negotiated with so what is someone to do? What is the end of the rope?

From a standpoint of reality, I support israels position on the matte and see the need to eradicate the militant arms of radical islam. It's important that it gets done.

Mr Punch

08-05-2006, 06:32 AM

So as I was saying, radicalisation is rife (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1837874,00.html), the Israelis' actions are causing more extremism and unity among the Arab peoples.

Through failing to heed Iraq's example and attacking the Lebanese people as a whole they are causing an even more difficult and horrific problem than the formation of Hizbollah those years ago as a direct defensive reaction to their previous aggression. They will never learn.

Even the local Christian sects are praying for the leaders of Hizbollah now.

Mr Punch

08-05-2006, 06:35 AM

GeneChing

08-20-2009, 09:36 AM

...for no good reason except this news piece, which is only marginally OT.

Shell-shocked Gaza children flock to martial arts (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jEIauj9pGlnDHRT6gXBu6yBosgCw)
By Mai Yaghi (AFP) – 11 hours ago

GAZA CITY — Salih al-Masri, a skinny nine-year-old in a red martial arts uniform, grits his teeth as he stands barefoot on shards of broken glass and recalls his family's plight during the war in Gaza.

"This sport makes me strong so I can defend myself, my family and my country from the Jews," he says, without betraying the slightest wince of pain.

"We ran away from our home during the war because we were afraid of the shelling," he adds. "But after we returned I started coming here every day to train. Now I'm strong, and I'm not afraid of anyone."

Haunted by what they saw during the massive Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip at the turn of the year, growing numbers of children are flocking to martial arts classes across the devastated Palestinian coastal territory.

Private clubs offering kung fu and karate lessons have attracted scores of new students in the wake of the fighting, a phenomenon child psychologists attribute to widespread mental trauma.

On a recent summer day several of the younger students at a club in the northern town of Beit Lahiya gathered to watch in awe as Salih al-Sawalja, 15, lay on a bed of nails with two other boys standing on his chest.

"No one will be able to mess with us after we become kung fu masters," a wide-eyed Nashaat Abu Harbid, a nine-year-old, says. "Everyone will be afraid of us."

As Sawalja moves on to the next exhibition, where he will walk barefoot over the upturned blades of several large knives, he explains that kung fu increases his self-confidence and allows him to "protect myself from anything".

Helmi Matar, a coach at the Beit Lahiya club, says interest in the martial arts has grown in the wake of the war, which killed more than 1,400 Palestinians and left vast swathes of the impoverished enclave in ruins.

"Interest in the sport grew exponentially after the war because people wanted a distraction and for their kids to release pent-up energy," he says.

A spokesman for Gaza's kung fu and karate union confirmed that attendance at the classes has doubled since the war, which Israel said was aimed at halting Palestinian rocket fire from the besieged, Hamas-run strip.

Child psychologists fear that the increased interest stems from the trauma children suffered during the three weeks of near-continual air strikes and shelling.

"Children internalise a huge amount of violence in war and they are not able to express it, especially when they feel that no one in their family can protect them," says Iyad Sarraj, a psychiatrist and director of the Gaza Community Mental Health Programme.

"Violence begets violence. The children try to release this built-up energy during sports. They choose violence because it fits with their situation and to boost their sense of power and security."

Osama Darabih, a lean teenager with a strip of black cloth wrapped around his forehead, has been studying kung fu for three years but says he started coming every day after the war.

"These sports are dangerous and there have been injuries and accidents during training," he says as he waits his turn to spar. "But we train well because we love it. It relaxes us and releases our tensions."

More than half of Gaza's 1.4 million residents are under the age of 18, and psychologists fear the coming generation will be snared by the cycle of violence that has afflicted the territory since the 2000 Palestinian uprising.

Samir Zaqut, a psychologist who works with Sarraj, says the children are drawn to violent activities by what they have experienced.

"When these children put their necks or their heads on broken glass or lie on nails they are in danger. But people who face repeated traumas like to take risks and are drawn to danger."

Zaqut fears that by encouraging interest in such activities, the club owners may be feeding into the violence that has convulsed the territory in recent years and scarred its young people.

"Sports are one way of getting a release, but we should not allow it to increase the level of violence," he says. "The children of Gaza have suffered enough."

Lucas

08-20-2009, 09:54 AM

wow, thats a shockingly matured response from a nine year old standing on broken glass for kungfu training.

On a side note: Gene practices virtual necromancy.

solo1

08-21-2009, 08:53 AM

WW3 was already fought and won, by us. It was the Cold War. WW4 is engaged: the war on terrorism and radical Islam. Its only a matter of time before Israel takes out Iran. Iran has sworn to destroy and "wipe Israel off the map" , the Israelis will not long stand for that. If Iran threatens them with nukes and its not far away Israel will utterly destroy Iran and I mean turn the country into a giant glass ashtray. Take the bet.

Joesg2

09-03-2009, 09:51 PM

Dude, had the US attacked Iraq under the properp pretext I don't think anyone would have a beef with them doing what has been done so far.

BUT. The administration lied and created the incorrect pretext for invasion.

Politically, if W had any wit or savvy whatsoever, he would have approached the UN as before and instead of making up stories and lying, just point to the failure of saddam to abide by the resolutions set forth in Gulf War 1 and their failure to meet any and all inspections as laid out by the UN and the AE folks.

But they played the Liar card and instead they get dealt what they get dealt because of that. Bush was an idiot for pushing to fast. He could have still had his war and he could've had it with the world behind him. Unfortunately, he's a stupid cracker and is not much in the thinking department.

I will openly laugh when the next pres comes in, is more savvy, more erudite, more articulate and more willing to look at truths as opposed to fabricate lies. Why will I laugh? Because the war in Iraq will still be on, there will be no plans for withdrawal and there will be plans and implementation of a large us military base in Iraq in perpetuity as well as UK/US control of oil fields and pipelines through afghanistan and Iraq. The next pres will be able to get this acceptance simply because he will be more endowed with mind than the current idiot at the helm of the ship that is america at this time.

ok alot of people think that just becaude they never found wmds like missles and bombs sadam had fields of bleach and amonia plants so he could combind them make mustard gas and kill virtually any1 that he does not like i had a friend that was part of the captureing of sadams palace they found pics of his men spraying the gas killing kurds women childern it didnt matter so yea if ur smart and dont listen to everything the media says and ask around u can find out alot more