Questions for Knifefighter. [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

gabe

07-19-2006, 12:54 PM

I haven't been able to find a pure WC guy to mix it up with in quite a while. Most pure WC guys won't spar full contact. Not to mention the fact that I'm not on some kind of a quest to go out and find all the top WC guys to see if I can beat each of them up. My training time is already filled up with MMA, knife, BJJ, and sub-wrestling stuff. However, I'm always open if you want to send a good pure WC by for me to see what he's got.

Most WC guys that I have come across that will actually spar have mixed any WC they continue to hold on to with Muay Thai, boxing, and, usually, some grappling. Since they are actually sparring hard, they have learned to throw out all the various techniques that are B.S. and incorporate only things that work.

With respect to finding the right WC guy, well, that's in your own interest. Testing against people outside your box of comfort is necessary if you are truly after "what works" and exposing yourself to all kinds of fighters. All those other things are well within your expertise. Of course you have no problem going against people whose arts you understand.

If you can find a WCer who can fight, it's in your interest. Until you've done so, your opinion of it isn't worth much. This is just as valid as when people dis grappling but have never fought a grappler. They can talk ad nauseum about grappling, but don't really know.

As far as what works, that's an individual thing. Some people can make trapping work. Most can't. If you look for and find the better ones, your martial experience is that much more enriched. Otherwise, you're just theorizing.

You can say you're too busy. But you've already dismissed it. I think you are as narrowminded sometimes as the most conservative cma-er.

YungChun

07-19-2006, 01:07 PM

Some people can make trapping work. Most can't.

WCK isn't about "trapping".

It is about a study of energy and position and how it relates to controlling “center space”, and/or the center "path" to the center-gravity of the opponent. A better way to think of "traps" is jamming, adhering, turning, deflecting and controlling, which should occur with split second economy in order to use feeling to gain a timing and positional advantage on the opponent.

WCK isn't a "trapping" style per se, IMO so much as it is a clashing style--this study assists us to operate off the clash and sensing energy and position through feeling, something most don’t focus on in stand up. We use these attributes to gain what is essentially center gravity control on entry in order to facilitate the attack or counter.. :cool: :p

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 01:14 PM

With respect to finding the right WC guy, well, that's in your own interest. Testing against people outside your box of comfort is necessary if you are truly after "what works" and exposing yourself to all kinds of fighters. All those other things are well within your expertise. Of course you have no problem going against people whose arts you understand.

Of course I've sparred and fought pure WC guys full force. My very first challenge match was against a WC guy way back when I only had a wrestling background. I just said it's been awhile. LOL @ not understanding it. I trained it for Chrissakes. Has WC been reinvented, or something?

gabe

07-19-2006, 01:46 PM

Of course I've sparred and fought pure WC guys full force. My very first challenge match was against a WC guy way back when I only had a wrestling background. I just said it's been awhile. LOL @ not understanding it. I trained it for Chrissakes. Has WC been reinvented, or something?

Really, you understand it? Piece of cake, I guess. I thought boxing was a piece of cake to understand too until I trained it. Hell, a jab is a jab right?;)

Every individual reinvents WC for himself. It's that way for all arts. Fighting Royce is not the same as fighting Rickson. You should know that. Fighting a WC guy from way back isn't much of an experience with the art. What do you say to boxers that had only one match a long time ago? And why bother getting into the specifics of your training, doesn't sound like you did much. That's ok, it aint everyone's cup of tea.

You are in contrast to the example Ross gave. That guy showed investment. While you should get all the respect for the investment you have in your own arts, you did not invest much in exploring WC. But it must be enjoyable to keep bashing it, eh? Carry on!

Ultimatewingchun

07-19-2006, 02:19 PM

A) Trapping as most people define it is next to impossible in standup against a good fighter - but as some define it - neutralizing one of your opponent's arms with one hand while hitting him with the other...while positioned in such a way that his free arm won't help him for a brief moment...(and therefore for all intents and purposes acts like a trap)...is possible against a good standup fighter...

if you're very good at it....and you're at very close range.

B) Using boxing hands and other longer range moves to get to close range is advisable for a wing chun fighter, imo, when up against a skilled standup fighter.

C) Learning to mix grappling/wrestling moves when in the clinch with wing chun infighting techniques can also add significantly to one's game, imo...and therefore wing chun's efficiency is not just limited to when in someone's guard on the ground.

D) Whatever happened to that visit you said you were going to make to see Gary Lam, wing chun sifu/fighter out in LA, Dale Frank ???

That was about 6-8 months ago.

Since LA is your home base - I'm wondering...did you ever go?

YungChun

07-19-2006, 03:12 PM

So much for the shortest thread in history.. LOL

Whatever happened to that visit you said you were going to make to see Gary Lam, wing chun sifu/fighter out in LA, Dale Frank ???

That was about 6-8 months ago.

Since LA is your home base - I'm wondering...did you ever go?

Wow, so close to good Wing Chun!!

Sounds like a great opportunity to explain and demonstrate in person how WCK is fundamentally flawed and cannot work..

Seems to me Gary commented in one video that folks with this attitude should come visit.. I'm sure they would be interested..

Mr Punch

07-19-2006, 04:43 PM

I believe that boxing, Muay Thai, and wrestling have much better clinching tactics.Fair enough. Did you train clinch at all in your WC? I know many (most?) schools don't for some blessed reason.

If I remember oorrectly, trapping is kind of incidental (if not even accidental) to the whole process and is next to impossible to pull of on a upright, mobie opponent who has halfway decent movement.Also fair enough. That's kind of my understanding of it too... I seemed to remember you saying something different before about the stress put on it: my mistake.

BTW some good posts (and a couple of gags too!) on this thread, which is kind of what I hoped for in getting KF's often more objective opinion and some rational responses. Cheers all.

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 05:19 PM

I'm sure Gary's a great teacher, but when I last checked into hooking up with him, it seemed he wasn't really doing sparring.

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 05:24 PM

Fair enough. Did you train clinch at all in your WC? I know many (most?) schools don't for some blessed reason.
Not really, unless you are talking about the chi-sao looking stuff with the dumb backhands to the neck you generally see.

If there is standard WC that has clinch work that is up to par with MT, boxing and wrestling that's news to me... maybe there is a clip or two of that approach out there that you could point me towards.

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 05:36 PM

Sounds like a great opportunity to explain and demonstrate in person how WCK is fundamentally flawed and cannot work..
Actually, if he were to be demonstrating anything, it would be how WCK when combined with Muay Thai can work. I hardly think Gary is a pure WC guy.

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 06:21 PM

And Victor,

Why do you get your panties in such a bunch about my comments and what I do or don't do? You're hardly pure WC, either.

It seems as if you are pretty much doing many of the things I advocate. You are combining boxing, MT and sub wrestling to offset the weaknesses of WC. You spar, both standing and on the ground. You think WC is great in the clinch. I think there are better ways... other than that, we are on the same page. We even agree that the other is an a$$hole.

Just add some competitions and weapons into the mix and we will be training bretheren. :eek:

Let me guess, you're not really doing this. You secretly spend all of your training time doing forms, playing with the WC dummy and doing Chi Sao.

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 06:38 PM

That guy showed investment. While you should get all the respect for the investment you have in your own arts, you did not invest much in exploring WC.
Gabe,
How long have you trained WC?

YungChun

07-19-2006, 07:06 PM

Actually, if he were to be demonstrating anything, it would be how WCK when combined with Muay Thai can work. I hardly think Gary is a pure WC guy.

Right, all that chi sao stuff he teaches must be from Muay Thai.. Okaaaay....

C'mon man his numerous vids contain nothing exclusive to MT, and tons 'O WCK, get real.. Hell, I havn't even seen him teach a MT Clinch, but lots of that silly Chi Sao, though... :rolleyes:

Feel free to point out any MT in his Wing Chun vids... His comment was specifically regarding folks who make the exact kinds of off handed comments about Wing Chun and Wing Chun training that you have made a career of doing on these pages.. :p

In any case Gary's WCK is top notch... Why not go find out for yourself since you're so close? I guess it's easier to just rag on WCK folks over the Net... :o

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 07:14 PM

YC-
What's the point? What good does it do me to go do more chi sao? I spent years doing that.

Liddel

07-19-2006, 07:51 PM

YC-
What's the point? What good does it do me to go do more chi sao? I spent years doing that.

Everyones entitled to thier opinion, but based on this comment i believe you havent experienced the best VT training. Although you could just be stirring these guys up.... :rolleyes:

Your certainly an interesting guy, im mean what type of person advocates the views you have, only to frequent VT internet forums to disprove or generally disagree with the art...

What are you ? a MMA misionary here in the outskirts of the matial art badlands to convert the savages. LOL :D

VT worked for me just last week, downtown against two guys, but im not the greatest fighter out....

There's ALWAYS someone better than yourself - this applies to both of us. :cool:

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 08:14 PM

Everyones entitled to thier opinion, but based on this comment i believe you havent experienced the best VT training.
What does it take for me to have an informed opinion? Would it be OK if I had training from a first generation student of Yip Man. Would I then be entitled to this opinion? Or do I have to spend the rest of my life in search of the ultimate WC guy?

Although you could just be stirring these guys up.... :rolleyes:
That is part of the draw.

darkwater108

07-19-2006, 09:37 PM

I have been training at Sifu Lam's for a few years and yes he does know Muey Thai very well. Trained professional fighters in Thai boxing for many years, but he does not train in it any more. His Wing Chun is pure Wing Chun. He does like some of the kicks, but does not integrate any of it in his teaching of Wing Chun. He will show you some Thai stuff if you ask, but it is not part of the class. We do not spar at Sifu Lam's since there are a lot of people that were getting a little out of control. We do spar, but it is left for you to train outside the class setting. He will coach you in it, but not as part of the class. Just some info to add to the conversation.

YungChun

07-19-2006, 10:53 PM

Back fists in the clinch? Wow, I'm guessing your WCK knowledge could use a boost.. Why not go get one.. I think you secretly want to rejoin the flock..

To wit:

YC-
What's the point? What good does it do me to go do more chi sao? I spent years doing that.

I wasn't suggesting a visit for Chi Sao... ;)

Gary mentions folks who think WCK sucks should come on over...

Since there is good WCK "down the block" from you, why not take up these WCK "issues" you have with them, perhaps someone there would be able to "show you" what WCK can do... :D

This way you can begin to address this disturbing and negative fascination you apparently have with Wing Chun with some live WCK folks instead of wasting our time and bandwidth here...

What is it that drives you to spend so much time on a WCK board? Did you have some disturbing experience with the system as a child? Did you win that first challenge match with your WCK opponent?

If so why did you train it?

Where did you train it?

For how long did you train it?

What was the traumatic WCK incident that so inflamed your heart that you have made bashing it such a big part of your life?

These are the questions you need to address with yourself and a qualified professional... ;)

omarthefish

07-19-2006, 10:53 PM

With respect to finding the right WC guy, well, that's in your own interest. ...

No need to quote the whole thing. Just a bunch of specific reasons why KF "should" actively seek out the best WC people......:rolleyes:

That is really really dumb.

I mean, it makes a really absurd a priori assumption, namely that Wing Chun a priori SOMEWHERE out there, has the vital piece missing in KF's game. Seeking out good fighters to test yourself, yes. Seeking out people from a variety of styles and training backgrounds, yes. But why in god's name would you go OUT of your way to investigate even MORE deeply into a style which you already spent a few years in and didn't find any particular excitement in. Why not just aribitrarily replace "Wing Chun" with some other art like Choi Li Fut, Judo or whatever. It's so incredibly clear that what KF is looking for is "fighting skills". I don't see him running away from any WC people that come to him to test him or whatever.

The normal thing is to just look for people. A prejudice TOWARDS WC is just as wierd as a prejudice against it.

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 11:10 PM

Back fists in the clinch?
Not back fists and not from the clinch... back hands (for lack of a better term) and from chi sao.

Go over to the thread entitled "Brief clip of Alan Jensen". Look through that clip and some of the other chi sao demos. Look for the numerous times that the back of the forearm is used to hit across the neck/trapezius area. These are the dumba$$ strikes I am talking about.

What was the traumatic WCK incident that so inflamed your heart that you have made bashing it such a big part of your life?
Reading some of the stupid posts that people here make.

YC-
I find it interesting that you are so keen on sending me to "be shown" things by someone you don't even know who probably has no knowledge of me and who probably has no interest in this discussion. Do you always try to set up these things with people you don't know?

How about YOU? Can YOU "show" me how real WC is effective?
Where exactly are you located?
Maybe you are in my back yard?
Or, if not, maybe you can "show" me sometime, as I do the occasional business travel around the country.

yenhoi

07-19-2006, 11:11 PM

I think it would be helpfull if someone, like KF, would define trapping.

It seems boxing, thai boxing, wrasslin, etc all contain loads of trapping, and that wing chun doesnt offer anything unique to the fighting equation. There really is nothing new under the sun.

Eric Paulsons CSW is chuck full of trapping. When he says trapping doesnt work he is talking about complicated pre-arranged trapping sequences like the 20 standard Jun Fan pak-sau drills.

In CSW dvd#1 "Takedowns off the Punch" he teaches out of a basic Dan Inosanto/Larry Hartsell scoop/parry/pat format vs straight punches. The same stuff would be recognized by kali, jkd, and wck people as trapping, or by boxing/thai people as clinch work or entries. Nearly every sequence on the dvd starts with a trap or an entry into a trap.

Just sayin.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

YungChun

07-19-2006, 11:41 PM

Not back fists and not from the clinch... back hands (for lack of a better term) and from chi sao.

Go over to the thread entitled "Brief clip of Alan Jensen". Look through that clip and some of the other chi sao demos. Look for the numerous times that the back of the forearm is used to hit across the neck/trapezius area. These are the dumba$$ strikes I am talking about.

Ahhhh, those "dumbazz" strikes...

Chops to the throat are not dumb IMO, but from the clinch? And clinch should be defined.. WCK elbows are better from certain clinch positions and they also can serve as escapes while doing damage..

Reading some of the stupid posts that people here make.

There are dumb posts all over, even here and by you... Clearly your issues run deeper than that..

I find it interesting that you are so keen on sending me to "be shown" things by someone you don't even know who probably has no knowledge of me and who probably has no interest in this discussion. Do you always try to set up these things with people you don't know?

How about YOU? Can YOU "show" me how real WC is effective?
Where exactly are you located?
Maybe you are in my back yard?
Or, if not, maybe you can "show" me sometime, as I do the occasional business travel around the country.
And I find it interesting that you continue to spend so much of your time bashing a style you see no value in...

I also find it interesting that you have such a good source of WCK right there but don't seek them out to see what's up--as I am sure some good WCK folks would accommodate you... Or why not just issue a general challenge to the WCK community..? :o

I am suggesting you work with folks like Lam, etc who have reached a high level of skill in the system so you can see some high quality WCK, since you seem so interested in WCK.. I live near Victor, moreover I do not consider myself to be a "high level" WCK person or Master level guy which is what I think you need to experience.. :D

Plus why should I be inclined to waste more of my time on the likes of you?

Beyond that sir, you are wasting everyone's time with this unending BS... Why not just go do whatever it is you like to train and let us poor misguided WCK folks to do our own thing? :rolleyes:

We already got your message dude, many times over, now, why not go pick on some Aikido forum, some of them are even worse...

Knifefighter

07-19-2006, 11:47 PM

I think it would be helpfull if someone, like KF, would define trapping.

It seems boxing, thai boxing, wrasslin, etc all contain loads of trapping, and that wing chun doesnt offer anything unique to the fighting equation. There really is nothing new under the sun.
I will refer you also to the Alan Jensen clip. There are numerous examples of WC trapping there. Basically, using a variety of techniques to end up with one or both arms holding down one or both of the opponent's arms to set up or allow further striking to the head/neck area.

You won't usually see those type of attempts at immobilization in boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, or freestyle fighting. Instead, you will see more along the lines of pummelling with overhooks and underhooks, 2 on 1's, shoulder immobilization, etc.

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 12:00 AM

Ahhhh, those "dumbazz" strikes...
Chops to the throat are not dumb IMO,
Really, when is the last time you saw an effective chop to the throat in a fight? I'm sure they occur in your pretend fighting, but reality is a different matter.

I am suggesting you work with folks like Lam, etc who have reached a high level of skill in the system so you can see some high quality WCK, since you seem so interested in WCK.. I live near Victor, moreover I do not consider myself to be a "high level" WCK person or Master level guy which is what I think you need to experience.. :D
Let me ask you this.
Have you ever had any training under Gary or even met him?

Beyond that sir, you are wasting everyone's time with this unending BS...
There is an easy cure for anyone who thinks that... there's a little device called the ignore button.

YungChun

07-20-2006, 12:16 AM

Really, when is the last time you saw an effective chop to the throat in a fight? I'm sure they occur in your pretend fighting, but reality is a different matter.

What is reality? You in the Ring? LOL

There is a whole world outside of this kind of experience and your apparently microscopic world..

As it so happens a WCK buddy was nearly attacked by a punk with a knife.. As the punk drew the knife my buddy, just happend to use a series of "chops" to the throat.. This just happens to be what "came out" the knife popped out of the punk's hands and both he and the knife landed on the ground, with the punk gagging and exclaiming, "your fuqin crazy!!"...

So you go sell your reality and leave us to ours..k? :)

Let me ask you this.
Have you ever had any training under Gary or even met him?
No.

I have spoken with some folks that train with him, and I have several of his videos.. I have great respect for the man and IMO I can see the level of skill he has in addition to the opinion of folks I know that worked with him...

Not good enough for you?

What a shock..! But who cares? Not me...

Now, please consider that Aikido forum.. I will not waste any more time on this BS...

Peace..!

AdrianUK

07-20-2006, 12:57 AM

Well after reading through this thread I had to say something, why are so many people jumping on Knifefighter ? He does his thing, against full resistance and it works for him. His experience of WC says it does not work as intended, no one can show a video of WC working against a resisting opponent yet you all claim hes wrong, I think the WC community needs to show some proof before calling anyone else wrong about fighting a prepared opponent, note prepared, not a street fight etc. If there are great WC fighters out there I for one want to see the footage

Regards,
Adrian

tjwingchun

07-20-2006, 06:30 AM

This may be the shortest thread in history, but you're always on here dissing WC but I just wanted to know:

1) Do you have a special wamr tingly feeling for wing chun, or do you diss other arts for perceived crapness just as much?

2) You trained a little wing chun right? Can you think of any good points?

Just wondered.

Cheers.

See what you have started with he shortest thread in history!!!:eek: :eek:

Personally if I get the chance, as I have the intention some day of doing a USA seminar tour (probably just one gig in Seattle when visiting my sister lol), I would like to meet up with Knifefighter as he seems like a guy who is passionate about his fighting skills, mind you he thinks I know f-all but then again he is as much a wind-up merchant as me :cool:

My view of Wing Chun is that it is simply the understanding of body mechanics related to fighting which is why there are similarities with many effective arts, then again there is a lot of cr@p Wing Chun instructors out there just as there is any system, boxing included.

Wing Chun has been called many derogatory things "girl fighting", "street fighting", "no kicking knowledge", "no punching power", if you know Wing Chun you should have the confidence in it and allow others their own opinions as you are better off meeting an uninformed opponent then a knowledgeable one:D

So keep hanging in there Knifefighter the size of the thread just shows you are getting people thinking :confused: :confused:

Bye from "Bubble Boy" and catch you later

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 07:53 AM

I have spoken with some folks that train with him, and I have several of his videos.. I have great respect for the man and IMO I can see the level of skill he has in addition to the opinion of folks I know that worked with him...
So, your opinion of him being a top WC guy with great WC skills is based soley on talking to a few people who have trained with him and seeing him do chi sao drills? You have never touched hands with him, nor even seen him actually fight. How can you determine if someone is a "top" guy with only this?

Additionally, you are attempting to set up a fight between him and some stranger on the internet, although you've never met him or, even, talked to him.

Maybe you should talk to him first before sending people to fight him.

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 08:28 AM

Ahhhh, thoseAnd I find it interesting that you continue to spend so much of your time bashing a style you see no value in...
Actually, if you go back and do a search on my posts, I think you will find that I generally only post about subjects related to MMA, knife and stick work, and/or BJJ/wrestling/sub grappling (or in the case of this thread, things that are specifically directed at me). Those are all things that I actually do. And since I have previous experience in WC, wouldn't it make sense that I would respond when somebody makes reference to WC in regard to these things- especially when they have limited or no experience in those things?

As far as bashing WC in general, again, if you do a search of my posts, I think you will find that any bashing I do is related to stupid statements related to one of the above subjects- usually by someone who doesn't actually do those things. Since I actively do those things, doesn't it make sense that I would respond to dumba$$ statements by others regarding the same?

Statements such as:

What is reality? You in the Ring? LOL
There is a whole world outside of this kind of experience and your apparently microscopic world..
As it so happens a WCK buddy was nearly attacked by a punk with a knife.. As the punk drew the knife my buddy, just happend to use a series of "chops" to the throat.. This just happens to be what "came out" the knife popped out of the punk's hands and both he and the knife landed on the ground, with the punk gagging and exclaiming, "your fuqin crazy!!"...
You are basing your conclusion based on anecdotal evidence of what a friend told you? See what I mean... stupid statements like this deserve bashing. You have no knife fighting experience and you are saying that a back chop to the throat is a viable method to use against someone with a knife? After 20 years of knife experience, I can tell you that either this event did not happen the way your friend "remembers" it, or he was extremely lucky.

Back chops to the neck will generally get you gutted against a knife. If I were going to attack someone with a knife and they were going to try to do something to defend themselves, a back chop to the neck would be one technique I would prefer them to do in order to make my job that much easier.

Don't you think it is strange that the only examples of back chops to the neck being used to good effect against resisting opponents are anecdotal? In my "microscopic world", techniques need to be reproducible and consistently applicable to be considered viable- especially when it comes to defending against a blade.

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 09:01 AM

then again there is a lot of cr@p Wing Chun instructors out there just as there is any system, boxing included.
Yet another example of a dumb generalization from someone who doesn't have experience in the realm he is generalizing about. You don't box and have no history of boxing training, yet you are saying this.

As a general rule, 49 of 50 times, if you go into any boxing, MT, wrestling, judo, sambo, or BJJ club, you will get good, solid instruction and develop workable skills regardless of the instructor. It is rare to find a cr@p instructor in one of these disciplines.

I would have serious doubts about anything that has a bunch of cr@p instructors, whether it be a martial arts system, a trade school, or a university- but, hey... that's just me. I'm funny that way.

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 09:19 AM

no one can show a video of WC working against a resisting opponent yet you all claim hes wrong, I think the WC community needs to show some proof before calling anyone else wrong about fighting a prepared opponent, note prepared, not a street fight etc. If there are great WC fighters out there I for one want to see the footage
Actually, Alan Orr posted some video of him and his guys incorporating their WC into MMA. I’m reserving judgment on this because these were pretty limited rules fights with no headshots. It will be interesting to see how their standup WC skills translate into full rules MMA. I’m betting that as these guy gain experience and move into more liberal rules, the actual applications will end up being more similar to boxing and Muay Thai than to what the WC purists think of as WC fighting, but we’ll see.

AndrewS

07-20-2006, 10:56 AM

Dale writes:

I’m betting that as these guy gain experience and move into more liberal rules, the actual applications will end up being more similar to boxing and Muay Thai than to what the WC purists think of as WC fighting, but we’ll see.

Fighting generally looks like fighting, not a 'pure' abstraction. As most WC people don't fight, they don't know what it looks or feels like, and expect it to look like the collection of drills and poses they think is Wing Chun. *Every* WC person I know who has gone and boxed, kickboxed, thai boxed, done judo, greco, or a ground art (and hasn't just walked away from Wing Chun, as happens) has come to similar conclusions on what to stress in their personal Wing Chun.

Then again, I'm part of what some folks like to call 'the reality-based community'.

Andrew

P.S. The Jensen clip- There are no back hands in that clip, and the 'trapping' is incidental and transitional, mostly a consequence of the usefulness of cutting a tight angle, with the elbows kept low, in the context of a *drill*. You probably don't want to use the spider guard in MMA, but drilling it will probably give some students skills and tools useful in things besides the sport jiujitsu applications which they might not be able to develop otherwise.

BTW- The organization he heads has been doing monthly fullcontact for willing members for 15+ years, running full contact stickfights (under a fairly restrictive rule set- not as free as the Dog Brothers, but not as lame as WEKAF), has incorporated ground training with strikes since before UFC 1 and now has an extensive BJJ cross-training program, has a number of members who are fighting MMA (escrima/boxing/bjj base, WT/BJJ base, etc.), and has a bunch of bouncers in it who regularly take guys lacking 'real world' experience and get them gigs at the door.

<http://www.wingtsun.dk/>

YungChun

07-20-2006, 04:05 PM

You have no knife fighting experience and you are saying that a back chop to the throat is a viable method to use against someone with a knife? After 20 years of knife experience, I can tell you that either this event did not happen the way your friend "remembers" it, or he was extremely lucky.

There are no absolutes.. The latest research says that the body will often react in unexpected ways when under the dump.. The position of the hand and body matter and folks cannot always take the perfect textbook position.. His hand may have been close to the person, or close enough to make that strike the closest and fastest move to land before the opponent got the blade out, one may also covered low with the other hand .. It happend, it worked. The ideal move, maybe not but schit happens..and IMO the strike in certain positions is valid..

As for setting up a fight, I said no such thing.. Regardless, what I see in Gary is quality WCK based on those I know who move and use WCK as he does with a similar level of skill. Moreover Gary specfically says in his video that nay sayers should drop by and since you are soooo skepical it seems a natural for you to go check him out, and I would think will all of the many posts you have made detracting from WCK that you would want to go see something good, which clearly you have not seen.

stricker

07-20-2006, 04:57 PM

I don't bash styles.
I bash bogus claims and inneffective training practices.

Good points about WC?
Some of it can be useful inside a person's guard on the ground.
It can be very effective if you have a significant size advantage on your opponent.
Supposedly, a few people are using it to good effect in MMA. Right now, I'm in wait and seen mode on this one.well you bash the wing chun training practices chi sao forms etc so you must be bashing wing chun!

hohoho wing chun effective in guard, you get that off the training forum :p

now personally knifefighter what i think sucks is your attitude. i could be wrong about that (been wrong before) but youve got experience and expertise why not help people out instead of just cutting them down or is your game just ho ho ho look how ****ing clever i am pat myself on the back.

also when you talk about hooking up with wing chun people in LA there are a few people there you could easily meet up and train with and maybe youd school them (maybe not) but still you could get a good impression of what some people with really good wing chun skills and good training attitudes who have been about a bit have to offer.

also while its been mentioned what impression i got from gary lams wing chun was it was influenced by the reality and experience of muay thai but technically i was surprised how pure wing chun it was. anyway its lame setting other people up for a challenge or such bollocks but take a chill pill and go meet some cool people. its like a kung fu movie here everybody looking for a fight to the death you dishonored my style and my sifu HA!

1

anerlich

07-20-2006, 04:59 PM

This has been an interesting thread.

Those accusing Knifefighter of some demented or psychotic need to denigrate WC are attacking the man and not his arguments, the well-known fallacy of ad hominem. Such conduct says more about their personalities than his. It's worth pointing out that he didn't start this thread, either.

Suggesting he has to go out and fight "a master" to have credibility is plainly idiotic. If WC is so fantastic, YOU should be able to demonstrate it works. KF's already said he's willing to hook up with people and would probably be happy enough to be proved wrong, though he obviously thinks that's an unlikely proposition. But saying, "you need to go here and fight this guy that neither of us have ever met, otherwise you're a d!ck" is blatantly ridiculous.

I personally think KF adds value to the forum, even if he thinks it's just a moderately interesting waste of time.

We've had challengers appear at our school. Funnily enough, they all seem to be from other WC schools. And to date, every single one of them has been totally useless when (WHEN, not IF) they got taken down. A few tried the thermonuclear option of throat or eye attacks, but all this did was encourage our guy to prolong their humiliation.

In LA, at least in the early days, as related by John Will a Machado BB who was actually there and dealt with challengers, you could walk into a Gracie or Machado school and get a fight any night of the week. The purple belts were expected to deal with such people, and in John's time he and another then purple belt handled them all. Basically if you got through the purple you could then fight a BB instructor, but this never happened. I could tell you a hilarious story about a Ninja who wanted to fight guys at a BJJ school in Melbourne as part of his black belt grading and got choked out by a 12 year old boy as well as by about a hundred white belts, but there isn't the space.

Maybe one of you guys daring KF to front up at Gary's could front up at Rickson's and act like an loudmouthed arrogant w@nker? Judging by posting performances here, that wouldn't be exceptionally difficult. If KF should have to do it, why not you?

stricker

07-20-2006, 05:22 PM

Eric Paulsons CSW is chuck full of trapping. When he says trapping doesnt work he is talking about complicated pre-arranged trapping sequences like the 20 standard Jun Fan pak-sau drills.

In CSW dvd#1 "Takedowns off the Punch" he teaches out of a basic Dan Inosanto/Larry Hartsell scoop/parry/pat format vs straight punches. The same stuff would be recognized by kali, jkd, and wck people as trapping, or by boxing/thai people as clinch work or entries. Nearly every sequence on the dvd starts with a trap or an entry into a trap.DUDE! i love those DVDs. i could talk all day about how many little moves in them are in the forms, chi sao etc and the little places where wing chuns "ineffective" training has tweaked to improve bits of my mma if its chisao for understanding lines of force and sensitivity etc or little things in the forms that make more improved mechanics obvious....

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 08:11 PM

There are no absolutes.. The latest research says that the body will often react in unexpected ways when under the dump.. The position of the hand and body matter and folks cannot always take the perfect textbook position.. His hand may have been close to the person, or close enough to make that strike the closest and fastest move to land before the opponent got the blade out, one may also covered low with the other hand .. It happend, it worked. The ideal move, maybe not but schit happens..and IMO the strike in certain positions is valid..
Or, more than likely, it never happened in the first place. Methinks you are too quick to believe your "friend's" story.
LOL @ incapacitating a knife wielding opponent with neck chops where he falls on the ground choking and saying "you're crazy"!:cool:

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 08:54 PM

well you bash the wing chun training practices chi sao forms etc so you must be bashing wing chun!
I also bash many of the standup self-defense techniques of BJJ. That doesn't mean I am bashing BJJ in general... just some of the training practices.

Does WC training consist only of chi sao, forms and wooden dummy work? If so, then I guess I am bashing the entire thing. If not, then just some aspects of the training.

hohoho wing chun effective in guard, you get that off the training forum :p
Not sure what you mean by this... care to elaborate?

now personally knifefighter what i think sucks is your attitude. i could be wrong about that (been wrong before) but youve got experience and expertise why not help people out instead of just cutting them down...
I've tried that before. I attempted to get a discussion going about how chi sao should be more like pummelling and clinch work, but that was blasphemy and no one wanted to hear that. I tried to get a thread going on the technical aspects of the clips posted on another thread and got only one response. Seems like people are more interested in arguing. That's probably more entertaining anyway.

also when you talk about hooking up with wing chun people in LA there are a few people there you could easily meet up and train with and maybe youd school them (maybe not) but still you could get a good impression of what some people with really good wing chun skills and good training attitudes who have been about a bit have to offer.
Let me state this one more time. I've already had the opportunity to feel traditional WC from pretty much the "highest" skill levels. I have no need to race around and try to find the next guy who is the "real" high skill level guy. If a WC guy feels the need to come to me and show me I have reach an incorrect conclusion, he is welcome to do that.

Oh, and by the way, since this thread is about me :rolleyes: ...when it comes right down to it, I can actually do a pretty mean a$$ chi sao myself.

I did spend about 8 years doing it, so at least I have something to show for my effort.

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 08:56 PM

Fighting generally looks like fighting, not a 'pure' abstraction. As most WC people don't fight, they don't know what it looks or feels like, and expect it to look like the collection of drills and poses they think is Wing Chun. *Every* WC person I know who has gone and boxed, kickboxed, thai boxed, done judo, greco, or a ground art (and hasn't just walked away from Wing Chun, as happens) has come to similar conclusions on what to stress in their personal Wing Chun.
Finally, a breath of fresh air. Someone who knows what he is talking about.

Refresh my memory, Andrew. Are you the guy who trains at Emin's in LA and at Eddie Bravo's?

P.S. The Jensen clip- There are no back hands in that clip...
You are right... my bad. I watched many of the clips on that page and thought that was one of the ones that had the "forearm neck chops".

You probably don't want to use the spider guard in MMA....
I'm a big fan of a modified spider guard in MMA fights and have seen it used to good effect... but that's a whole different subject and this thread is about me, damitt:) :eek:

YungChun

07-20-2006, 09:17 PM

Or, more than likely, it never happened in the first place. Methinks you are too quick to believe your "friend's" story.
LOL @ incapacitating a knife wielding opponent with neck chops where he falls on the ground choking and saying "you're crazy"!:cool:

Well what a surprise--not good enough for you... Nothing anyone says is going to be good enough for you we're all liars.... great.

Hey man, I know the guy and I know he would never lie about such a thing..

It sounded very much like other encounters I have had or seen when the "aggressor's" intent is pre-empted and he experiences sudden violence he will often turn into a cry baby and complaining of psychopathic intentions.

But this was about the chops and if you have the right position, which is what WCK is all about then they make perfect sense to use..

A series of neck chops, called lan sao can knock someone down and cut off good air flow. But most any correct WCK attack, which issues continuous CG energy, normally will knock them down or down and out--WCK steals balance, another system attribute, that applies continuity of attack with CG control. It is the combination of continuity and CG <center> energy issuing that makes it happen often enough.

Do you see a "knife fight" or more properly termed, an "edged weapon encounter", as a duel between two guys with blades, where they brandish them, and then attempt to cut each other?

YungChun

07-20-2006, 09:25 PM

Does WC training consist only of chi sao, forms and wooden dummy work? If so, then I guess I am bashing the entire thing. If not, then just some aspects of the training.
Thank God he didn't say Sand Bag... That would really have ruined it for me...

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 09:31 PM

Do you see a "knife fight" or more properly termed, an "edged weapon encounter", as a duel between two guys with blades, where they brandish them, and then attempt to cut each other?
Um, no... more like this:

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

Click on the "Die Less Often" clip.

AndrewS

07-20-2006, 09:48 PM

Hey Dale,

Finally, a breath of fresh air. Someone who knows what he is talking about.

Refresh my memory, Andrew. Are you the guy who trains at Emin's in LA and at Eddie Bravo's?

that's me. I haven't been at Eddie's in a couple of years (besides Mark Menendez's wrestling class there while it was going) as life, injuries, and marrige have been limiting my grappling.

I'm a big fan of a modified spider guard in MMA fights and have seen it used to good effect... but that's a whole different subject and this thread is about me, damitt

What lop sao is only good when you're laying down? ;-) Besides, rubber guard roolz d00d! Itz 2 deahdly for MMA!

<As I shudder at the spirit of the UG temporarily possessing me>.

I've been staying out of this present whole Wing Chun/MMA imbroglio as have many of the people who've actually gone out cross-trained and fought, 'cos, frankly, I've seen way more horrible Wing Chun than you and am pretty equivocal about launching defenses of Wing Chun on message boards at this point, having little urge to defend cr*p and provide rationalizations for people like crimson ghost.

Anyway, a quick idea that translates well from Wing Chun- the 'structure' idea people go on about is essentially framing against the ground (how to get power with it is a different discussion). When someone puts you in the plum, if you keep your head up (or get it up by dipping your hips to recover your neck- the weird bow in Biu Tze should show how to use the back during this safely), and meet the pressure of the elbows on the chest (plum where they pinch the elbows together, pull the top of the head, lever pushing with the elbows, drive with the hips) trying to get under the pressure from the elbows with your hips- this is using the basic posture of Wing Chun, framing the attempt to lever your neck down using the elbows as fulcrum by getting under the fulcrum point with your chest and using it their elbows as the fulcrum point to attempt to control them as you counter/escape. This same idea comes out in a basic side control escape on the ground when you push your far arm across the face or upper chest to make space- this is lan sao (the arm bent at 90 degrees position done with both arms in the first form in the section after the slow goofy bit)- which you then extend press down and away as you move your hips out shrimping - a transition to gum- using your whole body to press or pin making room to generate optimum angles for generating force by shifting your hips out.

That was way wordier than I wanted it it to be. Anyway for useful stuff on those clips- frame.

Andrew

Knifefighter

07-20-2006, 09:59 PM

(besides Mark Menendez's wrestling class there while it was going)

Was he coaching a competitor at the Abu Dhabi championships last year in Long Beach?

tjwingchun

07-21-2006, 02:07 AM

Yet another example of a dumb generalization from someone who doesn't have experience in the realm he is generalizing about. You don't box and have no history of boxing training, yet you are saying this.

As a general rule, 49 of 50 times, if you go into any boxing, MT, wrestling, judo, sambo, or BJJ club, you will get good, solid instruction and develop workable skills regardless of the instructor. It is rare to find a cr@p instructor in one of these disciplines.

I would have serious doubts about anything that has a bunch of cr@p instructors, whether it be a martial arts system, a trade school, or a university- but, hey... that's just me. I'm funny that way.

Fellows who never tossed a fist in their lives became trainers. They mistaught boys in gymnasiums. Those mistaught youths became would-be fighters for a while; and when they hung up their gloves, they too became instructors.

It was only natural that the tide of palooka experts should sweep into the amateur ranks, where lack of knowledge among instructors today is as pathetic as among professional handlers. And that’s not the worst. Too many amateur instructors have forgotten entirely that the purpose of boxing lessons is to teach a fellow to defend himself with his fists; not to point him toward amateur or professional competition with boxing gloves.

To a menacing extent the major purpose of fistic instruction has been by-passed by amateur tutors who try to benefit themselves financially, indirectly or directly, by producing punchless performers who can win amateur or professional bouts on points.

Not one youth in fifty has any ambitions to become a professional fighter when he first goes to an instructor. That’s particularly true among college and high-school lads. Yet the instructors continue teaching boys to become “smart” boxers instead of well-rounded fighters. And that’s a downright shame, for punch is absolutely essential in fist-fighting and it’s an invaluable asset in amateur or professional boxing. Actually, it’s stupid instead of smart instruction to teach other fighting movements to a boy before he has been taught to punch.

Because of this commercial, win-on-a-point-as-soon-as-possible attitude among modern instructors, the amateur and professional ranks today are cluttered with futile “club fighters” and “fancy Dan’s.” In the professional game there are so few genuine fighters that promoters find it almost impossible to make enough attractive matches to fill their boxing dates.

At this writing, lack of worthwhile talent in the heavyweight division is particularly appalling.

Not my words but mirrors my opinion

Mr Punch

07-21-2006, 06:58 AM

Not really, unless you are talking about the chi-sao looking stuff with the dumb backhands to the neck you generally see. Nah. Clinch is clinch, chi sao is chi sao [end hokey Chinese voiceover].

If there is standard WC that has clinch work that is up to par with MT, boxing and wrestling that's news to me... maybe there is a clip or two of that approach out there that you could point me towards.The 'standard' gag's a bit of a Catch 22. My teacher taught me that fuk sao is good as a round the back of the head control for jerking the head and upper body about like in MT (as in the first move of the dummy for a start), kao sao and double gan are good for working their way into clinch (we worked it as a drill that years later I know resembles swimming but I know that teacher never did any wrestling) and working for underhooks and that the elbows and hooks from chum kiu and biu gee work very nicely over the top in the clinch and while disengaging. For example.

Mostly we worked it in rather dead drills, though of course we would be encouraged to use everything in sparring.

Is it standard WC? For me yes it is, and when I started in shooto it worked very nicely and my shooto teacher thought I'd done wrestling before and recognised what I was doing as good clinch work. I've not really met anyone else in WC who's done the same kind of clinch work though.

Is it on a par with boxing, wrestling and Thai? Dunno, probably not for the lack of live practise but I hold my own and have a different way of working the clinch to the other guys in the class... but I'm glad of the chance to practise more live clinch work in the shooto classes.

For me, I forget exactly what my teacher taught me and what I've found out/made up for myself. I know that he taught me those apps and I've used them effectively in sparring with other arts. And since I know he only had done aikido (and the wettest style at that) before his chun they must have come from chun.

I suppose that brings me nicely round to yours and Andrew's point about what fighting looks like.

My shooto teacher incidentally started in WC in US and then HK, learned the whole system and subsequently completely abandoned it after training and winning Thai comps in Thailand, and going back to his wrestling roots, his family being wrestlers. When I started training with him he didn't recognise any of the things I was doing as WC... and complimented me on my use of swimming for positional control, the plum and the escape (both) that Andrew was just talking about etc, forgetting that he hadn't actually shown me them in the class. When we talked about it later I said he hadn't shown me it and it was just what I brought from WC, and he thought I was on crack until I explained it and showed him.

I'm not much of a natural grappler, and I'm still not very good, but the energetics (relaxing, not giving anything to work on) I find easy after the chun, and that includes some dodgy apps I was shown from guard by my non-grappling WC teacher.

My WC bros sometimes say, "Mat, you're boxing!!" until I show them slowly what I did. So your comment 'the actual applications will end up being more similar to boxing and Muay Thai than to what the WC purists think of as WC fighting, but we’ll see.' may be true of wing chun purists but what do they know!? :D They're in the box.

BTW I don't have any 'footage' of WC clinch work: I don't have a camera, and my main training partner is very secretive about his WC :eek: ! My description will have to do.

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 07:13 AM

punchless performers who can win amateur or professional bouts on points.
Whoever wrote this has never stepped into the ring with even an amateur, let alone a professional boxer. Winning a championship at either of these levels, even by points is a great achievment- one has to hit hard and take brutal punishment.

LOL @ a boxer who competes at either level, who is "punchless". Anyone who has stepped into the ring with a boxer, even amateur, knows that they are far from "punchless". Competitive boxers punch harder and better than the majority of "martial artists" who spout off about thier deadly punching power.

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 07:29 AM

The 'standard' gag's a bit of a Catch 22. My teacher taught me that fuk sao is good as a round the back of the head control for jerking the head and upper body about like in MT (as in the first move of the dummy for a start), kao sao and double gan are good for working their way into clinch (we worked it as a drill that years later I know resembles swimming but I know that teacher never did any wrestling) and working for underhooks and that the elbows and hooks from chum kiu and biu gee work very nicely over the top in the clinch and while disengaging.
You are making it functional, exactly the way that it should happen. That's why it looks so much like wrestling and MT clinch work. Functional stuff looks the same.

Here are a few questions for you- how much of your standup striking work when you spar in shooto is WC stuff that you have learned from doing chi sao and how effective are those techs against the other fighters in your gym? Which of these techs do you find to be high percentage and which are not?

I've not really met anyone else in WC who's done the same kind of clinch work though.
Maybe because most people in WC are not doing it.

BTW I don't have any 'footage' of WC clinch work: I don't have a camera, and my main training partner is very secretive about his WC :eek: ! My description will have to do.
You don't need any footage. That description was great. I know exactly what you are doing.

gabe

07-21-2006, 07:49 AM

No need to quote the whole thing. Just a bunch of specific reasons why KF "should" actively seek out the best WC people......:rolleyes:

That is really really dumb.

I mean, it makes a really absurd a priori assumption, namely that Wing Chun a priori SOMEWHERE out there, has the vital piece missing in KF's game. Seeking out good fighters to test yourself, yes. Seeking out people from a variety of styles and training backgrounds, yes. But why in god's name would you go OUT of your way to investigate even MORE deeply into a style which you already spent a few years in and didn't find any particular excitement in. Why not just aribitrarily replace "Wing Chun" with some other art like Choi Li Fut, Judo or whatever. It's so incredibly clear that what KF is looking for is "fighting skills". I don't see him running away from any WC people that come to him to test him or whatever.

The normal thing is to just look for people. A prejudice TOWARDS WC is just as wierd as a prejudice against it.

You don't seem so bright.

You act as if we are stalking him on mma forums and trying to convert him to see the holy grail of WC. Who ever said it some vital piece he was missing? Actually it's the other way around as far as who is stalking who with their prejudices. In case you haven't noticed, this is a WC forum and he is here expressing his disdain and criticisms.

First thing, I am not some huge WC advocate. I haven't done chi sao in years.

Secondly, some of his criticisms, when you cut through the sarcasm, are extremely valid. In particular, he has questioned over and over again the usefulness of chi sao, forms and the wooden dummy. (Correct me if I'm wrong, KF).
I'll try to make this easy for you, Omar. You can't answer these questions over the internet.
The only way is hand to hand, but not some stupid high school challenge. When I wanted to learn about grappling, I went and found the best grapplers I could find in the local area. Why would I go to some white belt, or to an internet forum for crissakes! I found a few, and we exchange on a regular basis. Yes, if Rickson was near me, Anerlich, he'd be the best to go to obviously. So whoever suggested Gary Lam or whoever you choose in your local area, they are the best people to go exchange with. That might satisfy this fetish, KF, you have for WC since you keep coming back to this forum. If you were questioning choy li fut, or tae kwon do, my advice would be the same.

And Omar, since he keeps coming back to this forum, a WC forum, why would I suggest he go to choy li fut or judo?:confused: What does choy li fut have to do with the merits or demerits of chi sao? If he really had moved on from WC as you say, then why is he here on this forum with these questions? See how stupid your post is?:o Ah, maybe you just like being KF's cheerleader.

KF, you have questions about Alan Orr or the Jenson video- you can't get them answered here. When you wanted to learn about knifefighting, you went to the best, the dogfighters, not some crappy knifefighting school. You won't get credible answers from crap schools, so of course you should seek out the best. If you have questions about WC, go to some local guys and exchange. How else can they explain why they choose to chi sao? People can't debate the usefulness of chi sao through internet debating any more than boxers can explain why they spend a lot of time shadowboxing.

I never had an exchange with all the different stylists I sought that I didn't benefit from. That's basic research, not internet research. And exchanging is not high school challenges, that's if you show some simple courtesy that is sometimes missing from your internet posts. But hey, this is the internet!:D

tjwingchun

07-21-2006, 08:36 AM

Whoever wrote this has never stepped into the ring with even an amateur, let alone a professional boxer. Winning a championship at either of these levels, even by points is a great achievment- one has to hit hard and take brutal punishment.

LOL @ a boxer who competes at either level, who is "punchless". Anyone who has stepped into the ring with a boxer, even amateur, knows that they are far from "punchless". Competitive boxers punch harder and better than the majority of "martial artists" who spout off about thier deadly punching power.

Only the words of Jack Dempsey, but compared to you he knew nothing, well that says something when he was admired not just by Bruce Lee but also Tyson, but the 'Knifefighter' knows better!

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 10:00 AM

Only the words of Jack Dempsey, but compared to you he knew nothing, well that says something when he was admired not just by Bruce Lee but also Tyson, but the 'Knifefighter' knows better!
Sheesh... amateurish attempt trying to set me up. Surely you can do better than that.:rolleyes:

If that was written by hm, it was obviously years after he had retired from boxing. Lots of old f@rts remember the "old days " as harder and and more challenging than the current era. Remember the old saw about parents who told thier kids they walked to school 10 miles in the snow, uphill both ways everyday?

BTW, human performance has improved in every single competitive sport since the days of Dempsey. Boxing is no exception.

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 10:52 AM

Actually it's the other way around as far as who is stalking who with their prejudices. In case you haven't noticed, this is a WC forum and he is here expressing his disdain and criticisms.

Gabe-
I think you are taking this WAY to seriously. Let's put things in perspective.

First of all nobody is stalking anybody. As far as I'm concerned, this is pure entertainment- plain and simple. I discovered long ago, you're not going to learn a whole lot here... that's not the draw.

The fun is I get to state my opinions... NHB style. You guys argue back, I rebut, simpletons like tjwc try feeble and unsuccessful attempts to trap me- and so on and so forth... There's a piece of me that loves to debate and the fact that we are not diplomatic about it is what makes it fun. We could never do this in real life without killing each other.

While the opinions I state are pretty much what I feel, the fact is that I don't really care how or what anyone chooses to train. I know that everyone has different considerations and each of our "realities" is somewhat different.

For anyone who seriously gets upset with the things I write, simply put me on your ignore list. That would actually be good for me. I spend way too much time here and I would quickly lose interest without the back and forth banter and derision that occurs. As a matter of fact, other than a few occasional exceptions, I post almost exclusively in this and the main forum. For some reason, only these two have that special verbal NHB mentality that sucks me in. Quit doing that and it will be much easier for me to slink off and spend more of my time productively.

As far as checking out with other styles in person, I've been doing that for years. I live in an area that is a melting pot of MA styles and often check other people out. I just don't normally post about it.

Ultimatewingchun

07-21-2006, 11:39 AM

Fellows who never tossed a fist in their lives became trainers. They mistaught boys in gymnasiums. Those mistaught youths became would-be fighters for a while; and when they hung up their gloves, they too became instructors.

It was only natural that the tide of palooka experts should sweep into the amateur ranks, where lack of knowledge among instructors today is as pathetic as among professional handlers. And that’s not the worst. Too many amateur instructors have forgotten entirely that the purpose of boxing lessons is to teach a fellow to defend himself with his fists; not to point him toward amateur or professional competition with boxing gloves.

To a menacing extent the major purpose of fistic instruction has been by-passed by amateur tutors who try to benefit themselves financially, indirectly or directly, by producing punchless performers who can win amateur or professional bouts on points.

Not one youth in fifty has any ambitions to become a professional fighter when he first goes to an instructor. That’s particularly true among college and high-school lads. Yet the instructors continue teaching boys to become “smart” boxers instead of well-rounded fighters. And that’s a downright shame, for punch is absolutely essential in fist-fighting and it’s an invaluable asset in amateur or professional boxing. Actually, it’s stupid instead of smart instruction to teach other fighting movements to a boy before he has been taught to punch.

Because of this commercial, win-on-a-point-as-soon-as-possible attitude among modern instructors, the amateur and professional ranks today are cluttered with futile “club fighters” and “fancy Dan’s.” In the professional game there are so few genuine fighters that promoters find it almost impossible to make enough attractive matches to fill their boxing dates.

At this writing, lack of worthwhile talent in the heavyweight division is particularly appalling.

Not my words but mirrors my opinion

***JUST READ tjwingchun's post #59 on this thread again - wherein he's quoting Jack Dempsey...so tjwingchun says, anyway.

Maybe it is from Dempsey, I don't know.

Either way, the post ("quote") makes a lot of sense about how boxing for points instead of learning how to move and punch in order to fight-for-real is a waste of time - and phonies up the art of boxing.

Does anybody really think Ali could have beaten a Marciano or young Tyson (while D'Amato was still alive)...in an alley????

Or a Jack Johnson? Or a Dempsey?

Even with his handspeed, combos, awesome footwork, etc. - I think he'd lose.

gabe

07-21-2006, 11:53 AM

Gabe-
I think you are taking this WAY to seriously. Let's put things in perspective.

First of all nobody is stalking anybody. As far as I'm concerned, this is pure entertainment- plain and simple. I discovered long ago, you're not going to learn a whole lot here... that's not the draw.

The fun is I get to state my opinions... NHB style. You guys argue back, I rebut, simpletons like tjwc try feeble and unsuccessful attempts to trap me- and so on and so forth... There's a piece of me that loves to debate and the fact that we are not diplomatic about it is what makes it fun. We could never do this in real life without killing each other.

While the opinions I state are pretty much what I feel, the fact is that I don't really care how or what anyone chooses to train. I know that everyone has different considerations and each of our "realities" is somewhat different.

For anyone who seriously gets upset with the things I write, simply put me on your ignore list. That would actually be good for me. I spend way too much time here and I would quickly lose interest without the back and forth banter and derision that occurs. As a matter of fact, other than a few occasional exceptions, I post almost exclusively in this and the main forum. For some reason, only these two have that special verbal NHB mentality that sucks me in. Quit doing that and it will be much easier for me to slink off and spend more of my time productively.

As far as checking out with other styles in person, I've been doing that for years. I live in an area that is a melting pot of MA styles and often check other people out. I just don't normally post about it.

Agreed. My only suggestion for your questions is to do exactly what you've been doing for years. My annoyance isn't with you, it's with Omar's silly post. But again, your questions can only be discussed in person. Asking a person why they spend any time whatsoever chi-saoing is a very good question. Dealing with grapplers via WC is another good question. You may want to address these to Keith Mazza if he's there. I've heard he discusses this all the time. This upcoming tournament sounds like a great chance to do that.

SevenStar

07-21-2006, 12:27 PM

While this has been a good thread, it is also frickin hilarious. Knife owned everybody in this thread... Who says mma is no good for multiple attackers? :cool: :p

However, what's sad is that you guys LOVE it. When knife, myself, MP, etc. post on the mma related threads over here, you guys jump on the thread, EVERY time, trying to prove one way or another how you are right and we are wrong... From what I know of KF, he's probably got more competition experience than anyone else in this thread, AND he's trained in the style he's "bashing" unlike some of you, who have no sport fighting training.

what was supposed to be the shortest thread in wc forum history may well turn into the longest if this keeps up. Concede defeat, guys...

SevenStar

07-21-2006, 12:41 PM

well you bash the wing chun training practices chi sao forms etc so you must be bashing wing chun!

not necessarily. He's bashing the training methods. For example, by someone's prior admission, gary lam's guys don't spar. but they train chi sao and forms. From a fight perspective, that is not efficient. Discussing that perceived flaw is merely that - discussing a perceived flaw. It's not bashing the entire style.

now personally knifefighter what i think sucks is your attitude. i could be wrong about that (been wrong before) but youve got experience and expertise why not help people out instead of just cutting them down or is your game just ho ho ho look how ****ing clever i am pat myself on the back.

perhaps it is not his attitude, but yours:

1. this thread was created toward him, not vice versa.
2. he is telling you guys what may be flaws in your game, and instead of saying "thanks, I'll look into that, " you tell him that he doesn't know what he's talking about. You gotta be open to constructive criticism. If someone tells me, "hey, when you throw your straight right, you drop your left hand," I'm not gonna talk bad about them - I'm gonna thank him for pointing out something I didn't see and fix it.

also when you talk about hooking up with wing chun people in LA there are a few people there you could easily meet up and train with and maybe youd school them (maybe not) but still you could get a good impression of what some people with really good wing chun skills and good training attitudes who have been about a bit have to offer.

he stated before that he HAS played with WC guys. Naturally, you all come back and say "well, were they GOOD wc guys?"

Ultimatewingchun

07-21-2006, 12:59 PM

He may have trained in wing chun - but everytime he mentions that part of his life the number goes up....like the size of the fish in the old Humphrey Bogart movie, TO HAVE AND HAVE NOT.

I remember his first remarks about his wing chun training when he first started posting on this forum...first it was about 5-6 years...now it's 8 years. LOL. :cool:

Furthermore - if he was training with who I think he was training with (and he refused to tell me in a pm once)...

he wasn't training with with one of the better wing chun people - not by a long shot.

So how much good wing chun Dale Frank ever learned is clearly an open question. All the more reason why I'm, quite FRANKLY, :rolleyes: ;), amazed that he never followed through on his plan to visit Gary Lam - clearly one of the best wing chun guys around and residing right in Dale Frank's own back yard.

Nonetheless...this thread (and Dale Frank's presence on this forum) does serve a very good purpose, imo - as his experience/realism/MMA approach to martial arts is a much needed commodity/reminder within most of the wing chun world....

wherein I dare say that about 90% is pure bull5hit when push comes to shove in a real fight against a GOOD, SKILLED, TRAINED MARTIAL ARTIST OR TOUGH/SKILLED STREETFIGHTER TYPE.

The other 10% does consist of people who can definitely hold their own or better against the above - especially those people involved in crosstraining with longer range stuff (ie.- boxing)...and VERY short range stuff (wrestling/grappling, BJJ, sambo, Greco, etc.)

A skilled/realistically trained wing chun man - when using it in the proper range (ie.- very close quarter standup - and yes...when in someone's guard, as another example)...

can be a very formidable guy indeed.

gabe

07-21-2006, 01:16 PM

he stated before that he HAS played with WC guys. Naturally, you all come back and say "well, were they GOOD wc guys?"[/QUOTE]

Sorry, that is a valid question. What makes you think the experiences he had in the past would mirror the ones he may have in the future at this tournament or at an Alan Orr seminar? How else do you respond to his martial questions other than either go meet him in person or suggest great people who he can meet up with if we are too far apart.

I've based my opinions on grappling based on experiences with outstanding grapplers, not on the countless crappy ones I've met. Should I have stopped after the crappy ones? What would you think of my opinion had I done so?

If he is sincere with his questions, then he has to continue that search like I did. And there's plenty at his next tournament so it's really not a difficult thing to do. We all do this kind of research.

SevenStar

07-21-2006, 02:50 PM

Sorry, that is a valid question. What makes you think the experiences he had in the past would mirror the ones he may have in the future at this tournament or at an Alan Orr seminar? How else do you respond to his martial questions other than either go meet him in person or suggest great people who he can meet up with if we are too far apart.

It's really not valid, as you guys always use it as a cop out. Just like the WC and other cma who have fought mma and lost. it's always "well, he wasn't a GOOD exponent," or "well, if it were a master..."

However, the suggestions of people to cross hands with is great.

I've based my opinions on grappling based on experiences with outstanding grapplers, not on the countless crappy ones I've met. Should I have stopped after the crappy ones? What would you think of my opinion had I done so?

your opinion is your own. I only agree / disagree with it based on what you post, not the validity of your training partners. I can say from training with WC guys that I think trapping is almost useless in a fight. Naturally, someone may say I haven't trained with any goo wc guys yet, which may be true. But there are others here who echo my sentiment...in the end though, it's just my opinion based on my experience.

If he is sincere with his questions, then he has to continue that search like I did. And there's plenty at his next tournament so it's really not a difficult thing to do. We all do this kind of research.

Not really. He's not on a quest. you guys are asking HIM questions. his path is competition in various venues. Who knows, maybe one day, more wc guys will cross his path. Until then, I seriously doubt this is all that important to him.

Mr Punch

07-21-2006, 04:10 PM

While this has been a good thread, it is also frickin hilarious. Knife owned everybody in this thread... Who says mma is no good for multiple attackers? :cool: :p
...what was supposed to be the shortest thread in wc forum history may well turn into the longest if this keeps up. Concede defeat, guys...Hehehe, not likely... he's my b!tch! :eek: :D j/k, thanks for the as ever candid answers KF and others.

Don't think I didn't know exactly what I was doing in starting this thread! ;)

Seriously, I always want to talk to people who will criticise me. Unfortunately there are thousands of the ****ers! :(

This:
If someone tells me, "hey, when you throw your straight right, you drop your left hand," I'm not gonna talk bad about them - I'm gonna thank him for pointing out something I didn't see and fix it.
attitude is soooo prevalent, and sooooo funny. And in many ways this is down to testing too:

"You're dropping your left."
"No I'm not!"
thwack
End of chat!

Be back later to answer your qs KF.

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 04:58 PM

I remember his first remarks about his wing chun training when he first started posting on this forum...first it was about 5-6 years...now it's 8 years. LOL. :cool:
My training was not "straight through" in terms of receiving continuous instruction, so altogether it was probably five or six years. However, during this time I also continued to practice and do chi sao- hence the 8 year chi sao remark.

Furthermore - if he was training with who I think he was training with (and he refused to tell me in a pm once)...
If you've followed my posts, I try to never bring outsiders' names into my negative comments. They are not here and are not debating with me. I think it is classless to have trained with someone and then, later on, badmouth them specifically. I may bash people I'm debating here. I may bash training techniques. I may even bash an entire system, but I'm not going to implicate a specific person who was nice to me in the past... the only time I would do this would be if this person was here debating with me.

he wasn't training with with one of the better wing chun people - not by a long shot.
Victor, I believe you know who my original instructor was, which is probably who you are referencing. Many of his teachers were also my teachers.

\All the more reason why I'm, quite FRANKLY, :rolleyes: ;), amazed that he never followed through on his plan to visit Gary Lam - clearly one of the best wing chun guys around \
Victor-
I'll ask you the same question I asked YC. What is it that makes you believe Gary is "one of the best WC guys around"? Have you ever touched hands with him? Do you know him? Have you ever met him?

Ultimatewingchun

07-21-2006, 05:02 PM

And once again...trapping two of your opponent's arms with one of yours - so that you're completely free to hit him with your other hand - because both of his arms have been tied up...

is bull5hit.

Almost impossible to do against a skilled fighter.

(See my earlier post about "trapping" for something that is possible to do - if you're very good).

Again....about 90% of the wing chun claims (and the people making them) amounts to loads of BULL.

AND WITHOUT REALISTIC AND FREQUENT HARD, SPONTANEOUS SPARRING AGAINST SKILLED OPPONENTS...

the 90% number will not change.

Throw away all the "deadly" techniques (finger strikes to the eyes, kicks to the groin, chops to the throat)...which amounts to nothing more than an excuse not to train hard and tough (ie.-real time, full power sparring with protective gear)...

throw that stuff away and watch the real progress you'll make if your goal is to really be fight-ready with your wing chun.

If not - resign yourself to limitless amounts of internet abuse from those outside of wing chun who are on to you...(even if you're sincerely kidding yourself :eek: :rolleyes: ).

Wake up, wing chun brothers...and finally smell the friggin' coffee.

planetwc

07-21-2006, 05:04 PM

Two words.

George Foreman

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6045286431650106346&q=foreman

Watch what George does to his opponents like Frazier.
Then look at what Ali did to Foreman.

Nuff Said.

***JUST READ tjwingchun's post #59 on this thread again - wherein he's quoting Jack Dempsey...so tjwingchun says, anyway.

Maybe it is from Dempsey, I don't know.

Either way, the post ("quote") makes a lot of sense about how boxing for points instead of learning how to move and punch in order to fight-for-real is a waste of time - and phonies up the art of boxing.

Does anybody really think Ali could have beaten a Marciano or young Tyson (while D'Amato was still alive)...in an alley????

Or a Jack Johnson? Or a Dempsey?

Even with his handspeed, combos, awesome footwork, etc. - I think he'd lose.

Ultimatewingchun

07-21-2006, 05:12 PM

No...my man...you're on crack.

Ali survived because he did the rope-a-dope for 6 rounds.

Let's see him (or anybody) try that in an alley. :eek: :rolleyes: :D

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 05:13 PM

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 05:14 PM

Victor- answer my questions.

Ultimatewingchun

07-21-2006, 05:15 PM

Good point - it is possible in the guard. But What questions?

Ultimatewingchun

07-21-2006, 05:25 PM

Didn't see your previous post with questions. Okay..fair enough.

I've never met/worked out with Gary - but after watching many short vids of his...and knowing what I know from having over 31 years in the game...I'd say that he's one of the best I've ever seen in wing chun. (Much better than you-know-who).

Have you ever met/worked out with Chuck Liddell or Randy Couture?

Probably not - but you're certainly qualified enough to pass judgment based upon what you've seen of them second hand.

Knifefighter

07-21-2006, 05:32 PM

Have you ever met/worked out with Chuck Liddell or Randy Couture?

Probably not - but you're certainly qualified enough to pass judgment based upon what you've seen of them second hand.
I can pass judgement on them because I've seen them fight.
I've seen them destroy other professional fighters.
I have trained with guys who I know are skilled who said they got schooled by them when they sparred with them.
That's how I judge who is the "best out there."

Are you saying that you determine who the best guys in WC are by watching demonstration videos?

omarthefish

07-22-2006, 12:32 AM

You don't seem so bright.

You act as if we are stalking him on mma forums and trying to convert him to see the holy grail of WC. Who ever said it some vital piece he was missing? Actually it's the other way around as far as who is stalking who with their prejudices. In case you haven't noticed, this is a WC forum and he is here expressing his disdain and criticisms.

But that's not the case on THIS thread. I refer you to page one for reference.

I'll try to make this easy for you, Omar. You can't answer these questions over the internet.

The questions posed on page one of this thread by the original poster can be answered easily enough over the internet.

And Omar, since he keeps coming back to this forum, a WC forum, why would I suggest he go to choy li fut or judo?:confused: What does choy li fut have to do with the merits or demerits of chi sao? If he really had moved on from WC as you say, then why is he here on this forum with these questions? See how stupid your post is?:o Ah, maybe you just like being KF's cheerleader.

Fill in the blank with whatever art you want. That's what is meant by the mysterious phrase "or whatever" that I included in the list of arts you could suggest. Sorry the use of the hypothetical ot make a point was too fancy for you to follow.

Point remains the same. Endlessly insisting that he just didn't find the right WC guy and implying that somehow if he did he could have his eyes opened is retarded. No. I actuallyt don't like being his cheerleader because most of the time I think he's an ignoramous when it comes to CMA but in this particular case he is speaking the voice of reason and the rest of you all are coming off like a bunch of thoroughly brainwashed nutriders. (with a couple of exceptions. AndrewS comes to mind and I am sure there are one or two others that I missed)

The "advice" to keep looking has no merit. My guess is that he (KF) has got better WC than the majority of idjuts singing it's praises. I can demonstrate better WC than most of the people I've met who actually train it just based on my general southern gong fu skill and the cross training I've done in the past. Get over it. It's a stupid "argument" (as in bulding an argument for debate) and I expect KF keeps trolling the WC forums becuase.........

It's just too easy.

yenhoi

07-22-2006, 01:12 AM

However, what's sad is that you guys LOVE it. When knife, myself, MP, etc. post on the mma related threads over here, you guys jump on the thread, EVERY time, trying to prove one way or another how you are right and we are wrong... From what I know of KF, he's probably got more competition experience than anyone else in this thread, AND he's trained in the style he's "bashing" unlike some of you, who have no sport fighting training.

:eek:

tjwingchun

07-22-2006, 01:55 AM

***JUST READ tjwingchun's post #59 on this thread again - wherein he's quoting Jack Dempsey...so tjwingchun says, anyway.

Maybe it is from Dempsey, I don't know.

Either way, the post ("quote") makes a lot of sense about how boxing for points instead of learning how to move and punch in order to fight-for-real is a waste of time - and phonies up the art of boxing.

Does anybody really think Ali could have beaten a Marciano or young Tyson (while D'Amato was still alive)...in an alley????

Or a Jack Johnson? Or a Dempsey?

Even with his handspeed, combos, awesome footwork, etc. - I think he'd lose.

The book is Championship Fighting, Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense, published by Prentice-Hall but has been out of print for a long while.

It is an excellent instructional book putting over how he undertood boxing from his days of bare-knuckle into gloved fighting, he also has his own way of putting his message across.

WHAT would happen if a year-old baby fell from a fourth-floor window onto the head of a burly
truck driver, standing on the sidewalk?

It’s practically certain that the truckman would be knocked unconscious. He might die of brain concussion or a broken neck.

Even an innocent little baby can become a dangerous missile WHEN ITS BODY-WEIGHT IS SET INTO FAST MOTION.

You may feel as helpless as a year-old infant—as far as fighting is concerned; but please remember: (1) YOU WEIGH MORE THAN A BABY, and (2) YOU NEED NOT FALL FROM A WINDOW TO PUT YOUR BODY-WEIGHT INTO MOTION.

You have weight, and you have the means of launching that weight into fast motion.

Furthermore, you have explosive ingredients. You may not appear explosive. You may appear as harmless as a stick of dynamite, which children have been known to mistake for an oversized stick of taffy.

You can launch your body-weight into fast motion; and, like dynamite, you can explode that hurtling weight against an opponent with a stunning, blasting effect known as follow-through.

Incidentally, mention of the baby and explosives reminds me of what happened at Toledo on the afternoon of July 4, 1919.

Standing there that day under the blazing Ohio sun, I felt like a baby as I glanced across the ring and saw big Jess Willard shrug off his bathrobe in the opposite corner.
Cowboy Jess was heavyweight champion of the world, and he was a giant. Moreover, he was a perfectly propor¬tioned giant. He was every inch an athlete. He tapered down beautifully from derrick-like shoulders, and his mus¬cles were so smooth you could scarcely see them rippling under his sun-tanned skin. He towered six feet, six inches and a quarter. He weighed 245 pounds. In comparison I shaped up like an infant or a dwarf although I nudged past six feet and scaled 180 pounds. My weight was announced as 187 pounds; but actually I registered only I80.
As I looked across the ring at Willard, I said to myself, “Jeez! What a mountain I’ve got to blast down this time!”
I knew about blasting—about dynamite. I had learned about dynamite in the mines of Colorado, Utah and Ne¬vada, where I had worked off and on for about six years. And I knew plenty about dynamite in fighting. I had made a study of fistic dynamite since I was seven years old. That was when I had my first fist-fight, with a boy about my own size, in Manassa, Colorado. I was born at Manassa and spent my early years there.
Before I fought Willard, my manager—Jack (Doe) Kearns—already had nicknamed me “Jack the Giant¬Killer” because I had belted out such big fellows as Carl Morris and Fred Fulton. They were big men all right, but neither had appeared such an awesome giant as Willard did that sweltering afternoon.
I had trained for Willard at the Overland Club on Mau¬mee Bay, an inlet of Lake Erie. Nearly every day Kearns and Trainer Jimmy Deforest reported that I was shaping up much better than Willard.
But when I saw big Jess across the ring, without an ounce of fat on his huge frame, I wondered if Kearns and Deforest had been bringing me pleasant but false reports to bolster my courage. I won’t say I was scared as I gazed at Willard, but I’ll admit I began to wonder if I packed enough dynamite to blast the man-mountain down.
Since this is not a story of my life, I’ll refrain from bor¬ing you with details of the fight. I’ll wrap it up in a hurry; I’ll merely recall that I sent Jess crashing to the canvas six or seven times in the first round and gave him such a batter¬ing in the third session that Jess was unable to come out for the fourth round. As Willard sat helplessly on his stool in the corner, his handlers threw in the towel just after the bell had rung to start the fourth. I won the world heavy¬weight championship on a technical knockout.
I won the ring’s most coveted title by stopping a man much larger and stronger than I was—one who outweighed me 65 pounds. I blasted him into helplessness by exploding my fast-moving body-weight against him. I used body-weight, with which the falling baby could knock out the truck driver; and I used explosion.
EXPLODING BODY-WEIGHT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON IN FIST-FIGHTING OR IN BOXING. Never forget that!

I was at my peak as a fighter the day I met Willard under the broiling Toledo sun. My body-weight was moving like lightning, and I was exploding that weight terrifically against the giant. Even before the first round was finished, Willard looked like the victim of a premature mine blast.

Chapter 1 of 25

AmanuJRY

07-22-2006, 07:52 AM

AmanuJRY

07-22-2006, 08:04 AM

Then again KF not seeing any value in WC could be a direct result of his disdain for it.

You can't benefit from something you don't believe in...

...and yes, it's about belief, regardless of style. Of course, those who train realistically will definately have a stronger belief in their ability (at least a more structurally sound one).

Knifefighter

07-22-2006, 10:13 AM

But that's not the case on THIS thread. I refer you to page one for reference.
The questions posed on page one of this thread by the original poster can be answered easily enough over the internet.
Fill in the blank with whatever art you want. That's what is meant by the mysterious phrase "or whatever" that I included in the list of arts you could suggest.
Endlessly insisting that he just didn't find the right WC guy and implying that somehow if he did he could have his eyes opened is retarded.The "advice" to keep looking has no merit.

Point/Set/Match- Gabe gets pw3nd by Omar.

The troops are rallying.

This is fun. I like having a thread about me.

I'll be back.

stricker

07-22-2006, 02:02 PM

Not sure what you mean by this... care to elaborate?
i posted in my blog on the training forum about wing chun being useful for gnp in guard about a week or two ago before you posted wing chun has some uses in the guard ;)

I've tried that before. I attempted to get a discussion going about how chi sao should be more like pummelling and clinch work, but that was blasphemy and no one wanted to hear that. I tried to get a thread going on the technical aspects of the clips posted on another thread and got only one response. Seems like people are more interested in arguing. That's probably more entertaining anyway.yup real martial art discussion just doesnt have that draw. the longest threads are always ones with people whineing and *****ing or cult of personality stuff (not doing too bad yourself :p). but there have been some v.good info too... i dunno just from some of your posts it comes off like you enjoy tapping out white belts just a little too much hahaha

Let me state this one more time. I've already had the opportunity to feel traditional WC from pretty much the "highest" skill levels. I have no need to race around and try to find the next guy who is the "real" high skill level guy. If a WC guy feels the need to come to me and show me I have reach an incorrect conclusion, he is welcome to do that.thats cool. one thing is though wing chun has no checks like a sport martial art would so there are professional full time wing chun instructors who are very poor fighters but then a few people out there who do it as a hobby and keep pretty quite who can rip **** up. also its so full of opinions grandmasters whos the best etc and they can be very different.

Oh, and by the way, since this thread is about me :rolleyes: ...when it comes right down to it, I can actually do a pretty mean a$$ chi sao myself.

I did spend about 8 years doing it, so at least I have something to show for my effort.hahaha soak in your fifteen minutes :D

stricker

07-22-2006, 02:07 PM

However, what's sad is that you guys LOVE it. When knife, myself, MP, etc. post on the mma related threads over here, you guys jump on the thread, EVERY timeof course i love it i train mma and wing chun :D

Ultimatewingchun

07-22-2006, 02:26 PM

No Dale, I don't just go by videos to judge people's wing chun - not at all.

When I was a student of William Cheung for only about a year, I took a private lesson with him wherein at one point I asked him to "check" my chi sao - and he took it to mean something different.

Push literally came to shove - and I then decided to go all out to hit him during the chi sao...at which point it became a full contact sparring match with no protective gear...

And he proceeded to punch, palm strike, and throw me all around the room nonstop for about 2 minutes before I said that I had enough...bloodied my mouth...must have hit me at least 20 times (I think I hit him twice)...and thank God he was being kind and didn't hit me with full power (or with a kick)...as his kicks back in those days were awesome. (1985)

And there have been other wing chun people (or non-wing chun people) with whom I've chi sao'ed or sparred full contact with - as well as the 10 or so students I've had through the years who could really fight (be it using wing chun, boxing, kickboxing, karate, or any combo of them all)...most of whom are bigger and weigh more than me (about 7 of them are at least 6' tall - and about 5 of them 200 lbs. or more)....who I've sparred full contact dozens of times each - allowing them to come at me full force and forget that I'm "sifu" for the moment.

You always resort to this kind of argument, Dale...but your attempts to change the subject still leaves open the question as to why - after beating down on virtually everything (and everyone) connected with wing chun on this forum for so long...and in fact it was on a thread like this one some 6-8 months ago wherein you said something to the effect that..."yeah, I should go see Gary Lam to be fair about it" (fair about not having a double standard with your criticisms of people who want to talk but not actually go and find out what works and what doesn't "first hand")...

So again I'll ask: If you're so convinced that wing chun has virtuaully nothing to offer except when on the ground and caught in someone's guard...Why not go and check out someone who many people agree is one of the best wing chun guys around - especially since he lives right in your own backyard?

stricker

07-22-2006, 02:31 PM

not necessarily. He's bashing the training methods. For example, by someone's prior admission, gary lam's guys don't spar. but they train chi sao and forms. From a fight perspective, that is not efficient. Discussing that perceived flaw is merely that - discussing a perceived flaw. It's not bashing the entire style.well not quite but your coming close to bashing gary lam and he does have muay thai experience so for me i'd think hmmm maybe somethings going on, or maybe i dont know all the facts etc. really the only way to know whats up with gary is to go visit. back to the point i totally agree in bashing the training methods outdated ideas of what other fighters do etc etc aww man how come everything turns into a two sided argument!

perhaps it is not his attitude, but yours:

1. this thread was created toward him, not vice versa.
2. he is telling you guys what may be flaws in your game, and instead of saying "thanks, I'll look into that, " you tell him that he doesn't know what he's talking about. You gotta be open to constructive criticism. If someone tells me, "hey, when you throw your straight right, you drop your left hand," I'm not gonna talk bad about them - I'm gonna thank him for pointing out something I didn't see and fix it.
i guess your not talking me personally but everyone "you guys"? 1.wasnt me 2. i train mma too ;)

anyway i definitely have seen posts on here were ive thought his attitude sucks, again ive been wrong about that before. i see the criticism just not much constructive thats all. i think i summed it up when i said about him enjoying tapping out white belts a little too much. and weve got kfs answer pretty much he does it for fun. fair enough not how id spend my time personally but hey whatever floats your boat. theres the answer end of thread :D

yenhoi

07-22-2006, 09:58 PM

Gary Lams Wing Chun videos are not very good.

:rolleyes:

YungChun

07-23-2006, 04:14 AM

And once again...trapping two of your opponent's arms with one of yours - so that you're completely free to hit him with your other hand - because both of his arms have been tied up...

is bull5hit.

Almost impossible to do against a skilled fighter.

Isn't skill a relative term?

How much skill does the opponent have?

How much skill do I have?

What style fighter is he?

I think there is a big difference these days in the US for example of how folks fight in general vs. how folks used to fight in the old days when WCK was gaining popularity in China.. I also think that how you use your WCK can, will and must change as you fight folks who fight differently... Folks who fight for example, using a Southern Chinese system will not fight the same way as a modern Western Boxer will.. So what works or what happens with one may not work or happen with another...

Victor,

Have you never "trapped" as described anyone in sparring? I know I have.., Now were they "highly skilled" folks no, probably not, given the standards folks are using here, but again isn't this all relative?

If "he" was better then maybe the "trap" wouldn't have happened.. But what if he was better AND I was better too..?

I know that trapping in this way did not happen the same way when I sparred my boxer student but it did happen on occasion when the position was correct albeit in a different way... I just don't see the absolutes that everyone is using here: This cannot work, that cannot work....etc, it all depends on who and how we're talking about what..

I also don't see folks talking about the right context for the moves and how the training is supposed to relate to real world conditions, like position and range and energy... "Trapping" is what happens at a certain ranges and under certain conditions of position and energy--IMO WCK is not all about trapping in this context... There is no reason to use moves that clear the line if he ain't on the line..and HIA--I know you know what that means--will work under a variety of conditions that may or may not resemble a classic trap. Studying energy also doesn't mean you HAVE to "trap", rather you can simply use sensitivity to attach, or find openings, or determine where the line needs to be moved to..

But IMO if any "WCK stuff" works in sparring then it can work PERIOD, maybe not against "SUPER FIGHTERS" but then again how many of us WCK folks train as hard and as long as semi-pro or pro "super" fighters?

YungChun

07-23-2006, 06:06 AM

Gary Lams Wing Chun videos are not very good.

:rolleyes:

Interesting, if criptic comment..

Who in your opinion has some "good" WCK videos?

yenhoi

07-23-2006, 06:49 AM

Kenneth Chung, Eddie Chong, Francis Fong, and some others. I have an extensive video library.

I have not seen a video of a Gary Lam seminar, only the 3-tape instructional series.

I dont think knifefighter has released any Instructionals, but he does make appearances on tape/dvd.

:cool:

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 09:35 AM

So again I'll ask: If you're so convinced that wing chun has virtuaully nothing to offer except when on the ground and caught in someone's guard...Why not go and check out someone who many people agree is one of the best wing chun guys around - especially since he lives right in your own backyard?
This is too easy. Stricker is right… it’s like tapping white belts.

Why don’t I specifically search out Gary Lam?

First of all, I’m not the kind of person who just walks into an instructor’s studio and challenges him. Since Gary doesn’t spar and chi sao isn’t going to tell me anything, the only other option is to fight. That’s not cool from my point of view to walk around doing that.

Secondly, let’s say that we could figure out a way for me to judge his abilities, or we did a challenge match and he beat me convincingly. That would not convince me that the various aspects of WC that I think of as ineffective and inefficient suddenly are. My conclusion would be that he is good DESPITE his WC training, not BECAUSE of it.

Next, let's say I met him and came away thinking he was nothing special. You would just tell me to go find the next "real" top guy, or that he didn't show me the "real" stuff, or he took it easy on me, etc.

And finally, you cannot judge a system’s effectiveness based on the top practitioners. You have to look at the average practitioner. I can walk into just about any BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai gym and see or feel multiple examples of average practitioners applying realistic and effective techniques from their respective systems. Many of these mid-level practitioners will give me a hard time, or even beat me, in sparring using exactly the same techniques they use in practice. On the other hand, I can walk into just about any WC studio and completely shut down the average practitioner’s chi sao (and could probably do so with many of the “top” guys)… not to mention the fact that the average practitioner in WC doesn’t even spar.

I can see thousands of examples of the average practitioners of BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai effectively applying their systems against fully resisting opponents. Not so with WC..

If I can only see examples of effective WC from its very top guys, it tells me that my criticisms of it are probably valid.

sihing

07-23-2006, 12:02 PM

This is too easy. Stricker is right… it’s like tapping white belts.

Why don’t I specifically search out Gary Lam?

First of all, I’m not the kind of person who just walks into an instructor’s studio and challenges him. Since Gary doesn’t spar and chi sao isn’t going to tell me anything, the only other option is to fight. That’s not cool from my point of view to walk around doing that.

Secondly, let’s say that we could figure out a way for me to judge his abilities, or we did a challenge match and he beat me convincingly. That would not convince me that the various aspects of WC that I think of as ineffective and inefficient suddenly are. My conclusion would be that he is good DESPITE his WC training, not BECAUSE of it.

Next, let's say I met him and came away thinking he was nothing special. You would just tell me to go find the next "real" top guy.

And finally, you cannot judge a system’s effectiveness based on the top practitioners. You have to look at the average practitioner. I can walk into just about any BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai gym and see or feel multiple examples of average practitioners applying realistic and effective techniques from their respective systems. Many of these mid-level practitioners will give me a hard time, or even beat me, in sparring using exactly the same techniques they use in practice. On the other hand, I can walk into just about any WC studio and completely shut down the average practitioner’s chi sao (and could probably do so with many of the “top” guys)… not to mention the fact that the average practitioner in WC doesn’t even spar.

I can see thousands of examples of the average practitioners of BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai effectively applying their systems against fully resisting opponents. Not so with WC..

If I can only see examples of effective WC from its very top guys, it tells me that my arguments against it are probably valid.

I think it is fair to say after these comments that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to convince Knifefighter of anything regarding WC's effectiveness or the effectiveness of someone using the WC delivery system.

I have met Gary Lam, touched hands with him and have received instruction from him. I have studied the DVD's, and learned a ton more from students of his. His WC is very good, but it is not only his WC that makes him good, it is himself and what he has done with it that makes him a skilled fighter. To me, Sifu Lam takes the principal of Economy of Motion to the max when he engages another in a fighting atmosphere. He uses what he needs from his personal experiences and what WC has taught him. IMO he is not a WC robot, meaning he does not form stances or looks for traps, he just fights based on pure naturalness and instinct. Now, if someone does not have his training and fighting background, they will not be able to duplicate his effectiveness. I for one am a example of this. Yeah, I know all about the concepts and principals behind what I am supposed to do, but I have 1) not fully absorbed the body mechanics and reflexes of what WC is teaching me, 2) not tested it out in a real environment under real stress and pressure. Sifu Lam has and has been doing so for years upon years. He is a great example of someone that has the best of both worlds, a superb technician with vast understand of a method of combat, combined with natural reaction and fighting instincts developed from years of pressure testing and experiences. Most of us fall into one category or another.

I for one believe in the fact that if he can do, so can I. I also know this about myself, I'm not as interested as some about fighting people or styles and how well I would do against them. This is a question with to many variable attached to it, and know one can answer this honestly with 100% accuracy. All you can do it try your hardest to get out of it with minimal injury to yourself, and maximum damage to the other guy. There are allot of Martial Arts out there that can turn you into a deadly fighting machine, if that is what you want out of it and train like a madman. Not all of us are looking for that angle from Martial Arts training. I like training it, learning something knew and teaching it to others and seeing that same pleasure come out of them as I get from it personally. So what you want out of it, effects how you will think about it and use it.

I also believe how one trains effects greatly how one will use what they have learned while under great pressure. I believe whole-heartedly, that if anyone on here trained like Knifefighter does (I'm under the assumption that Knifefighter trains similarly if not the same as most MMA people do, similar to the guys on the UFC show), they too would be very effective in using WC against another fighter from any system of fighting. I also believe to a small degree that what you learn does reflect in how effective you will be, but in the end it is how you train that matters most. To me the problem that exists in the WC world today is people listen to the legends and think, "Oh, all I have to do is learn this form and that technique, add in a little chi sau and I'm unbeatable, because what I'm doing is so much more effective than anything else out there". I used to think this way. The fact of the matter is, most WC people are too lazy in how they train to realistically use what are learning. Forms, chi-sau are all just learning tools designed to give you a possible advantage in all sorts of given situations. They are not the be all end all of fighting and to think so is a mistake IMO. They are starting points to teach beginners bodies how to react and move in a Simple, Efficient and Direct way. More and more I'm am starting to believe that WC is a training system, a way to develop certain attributes in the body to allow one to defend themselves against all kinds of physical aggression vs. being a fighting system which’s tells us exactly what we should do in this or that situation. I will never express WC the same way Sifu Lam does or any one else that teaches me, nor will the students that I teach express it just like me. We are all individuals with different ideas, different ways of thinking and different ways of expression.

James

Ultimatewingchun

07-23-2006, 12:18 PM

"And finally, you cannot judge a system’s effectiveness based on the top practitioners. You have to look at the average practitioner. I can walk into just about any BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai gym and see or feel multiple examples of average practitioners applying realistic and effective techniques from their respective systems. Many of these mid-level practitioners will give me a hard time, or even beat me, in sparring using exactly the same techniques they use in practice. On the other hand, I can walk into just about any WC studio and completely shut down the average practitioner’s chi sao (and could probably do so with many of the “top” guys)… not to mention the fact that the average practitioner in WC doesn’t even spar.

I can see thousands of examples of the average practitioners of BJJ, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai effectively applying their systems against fully resisting opponents. Not so with WC..

If I can only see examples of effective WC from its very top guys, it tells me that my criticisms of it are probably valid." (Dale Frank...aka...Knifefighter)

***YOU HAVE TO JUDGE this particular system (wing chun) by it's top practitioners, imo...precisely because so few people have ever had success in real fight situations that are publically known about (ie.- Yip Man, Bruce Lee, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, and a handful of other people here and there)...

and because there is so much bull5hit that passes for good wing chun (as I said, about 90% I would venture to say). Remember: Yip Man was notoriously famous for training/teaching different things to different people (ie.- very few of his students really got his best stuff).

But I'd like to turn my attention to Bruce Lee for a moment. I am becoming more and more convinced as time goes on that he was the best fighter to ever come out of the wing chun world - precisely because he understood the limitations of wing chun (very close quarter standup infighting with the hands and some short range kicks)...

since he spent so much time actually sparring/training/fighting with some of the top people of his day (Joe Lewis, Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, Wally Jay, Gene LeBell, Ed Parker)....as well as training directly with the best students (as fighters) that Yip Man ever had besides himself (William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung)...

and because he upgraded his training methods (as did guys like William and Wong to a certain extent)...to include lots of spontaneous hard sparring...

and since Bruce knew the limitations - he developed great long and medium range kicking technique, great straight boxing type leads, crosses, combinations, etc...great fast, mobile, and highly deceptive footwork...and towards the very end of his life - was learning wrestling and judo moves and principles.

SO IN PRINCIPLE I AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE STATE OF THE WING CHUN WORLD.

But my biggest difference with you is this: wing chun centerline (and centraline) principles, the contact reflexes and short range striking technique almost always using two arms simultaneously that comes out of chi sao training, and the strategy of always trying to find an opportunity to come into very close range - not just to clinch for a takedown or for a shoot to the legs...but to hit and kick from very close range...

these things can indeed contribute to one's overall fighting skills - as opposed to the idea that the system is basically worthless except when caught in guard...which is what you seem to be saying lately.

Hence my advice to go and check out a guy like Gary Lam - not just because he understands and can perform wing chun chi sao (and wing chun basic fighting principles, strategies, and techniques) - all with high level skill...but also because he's someone who's also done some crosstraining of his own during his day (Muay Thai) - including in competition matches.

I understand your position of not wanting to just basically walk into someone's school and challenge in a hostile manner - and I agree...but I think there could be some middle ground between just doing some chi sao and all out full contact sparring/fighting as a hostile outsider.

You might be surprised as to how the man utilizes his wing chun in ways you may not have ever seen (or thought of) before - since there really is a difference between some of the various approaches to wing chun (and wing chun training)...

and being one of the best students (Gary) of one of the best wing chun guys (Wong Shun Leung) ever to train with Yip Man...and since Wong did some boxing in his day...and Gary did some Muay Thai: put all this together...

and you might find him to be a pleasant surpise from your point of view: he's one of the few who really knows how to make wing chun work.

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 12:19 PM

I believe whole-heartedly, that if anyone on here trained like Knifefighter does (I'm under the assumption that Knifefighter trains similarly if not the same as most MMA people do, similar to the guys on the UFC show), they too would be very effective in using WC against another fighter from any system of fighting. Forms, chi-sau are all just learning tools designed to give you a possible advantage in all sorts of given situations. They are not the be all end all of fighting and to think so is a mistake IMO. They are starting points to teach beginners bodies how to react and move in a Simple, Efficient and Direct way.

Since MMA based training systems don't do chi sao or forms and, IYO, chi sao and forms are to teach beginners the basics, would you say that someone who wanted to become an effective fighter should not do either of these once he or she moved from the beginning levels?

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 12:39 PM

***YOU HAVE TO JUDGE this particular system (wing chun) by it's top practitioners, imo...precisely because so few people have ever had success in real fight situations that are publically known about (ie.- Yip Man, Bruce Lee, William Cheung Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung, and a handful of other people here and there)...
and because there is so much bull5hit that passes for good wing chun (as I said, about 90% I would venture to say).[
SO IN PRINCIPLE I AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE STATE OF THE PRESENT WING CHUN WORLD.

If a university has 90% BS subjects taught and teachers teaching, doesn't that make the university pretty much BS? Shouldn't one attend a university that has 90% non-BS teachers and students?

Why would one even attempt to find a WC teacher to teach him or her? Why not find a system that is 90% non-BS.? Especially, since in those other systems, it is much easier to determine the BS stuff from the non-BS stuff.

Ultimatewingchun

07-23-2006, 12:45 PM

So you want to throw out the baby because there's more than the usual amount of dirty bath water?

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 12:47 PM

these things can indeed contribute to one's overall fighting skills - as opposed to the idea that the system is basically worthless except when caught in guard...which is what you seem to be saying lately.
[/B]
No, I also think WC can be a potent tool for a guy who is big and strong and who will benefit from techniques that provide speed, rather than power.

One of the problems I have with WC is that it is "marketed" as being for small people against larger, stronger people. I think it is the opposite.

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 01:30 PM

So you want to throw out the baby because there's more than the usual amount of dirty bath water?

So what is the "baby"?" Is it the center//centra-line principle?

Are you saying this principle is somehow superior to the principles being used in wrestling, BJJ, judo, SAMBO, boxing and Muay Thai?

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 01:45 PM

but also because he's someone who's also done some crosstraining of his own during his day (Muay Thai) - including in competition matches.
Victor-

You’ve got to work on your reasoning ability.

Finding a guy who has trained in Muay Thai doesn’t do much for telling me the effectiveness of WC. The fact that someone has significant Muay Thai experience just bolsters my whole point. Here’s a guy who is much better than 90% of the WC community and guess what… he has extensive training the one of the very systems that I am saying turns out effective fighters.

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 02:05 PM

And speaking of reasoning ability:

No Dale, I don't just go by videos to judge people's wing chun - not at all.

When I was a student of William Cheung for only about a year, I took a private lesson with him wherein at one point I asked him to "check" my chi sao - and he took it to mean something different.

Push literally came to shove - and I then decided to go all out to hit him during the chi sao...at which point it became a full contact sparring match with no protective gear...

And he proceeded to punch, palm strike, and throw me all around the room nonstop for about 2 minutes before I said that I had enough...bloodied my mouth...must have hit me at least 20 times (I think I hit him twice)...and thank God he was being kind and didn't hit me with full power (or with a kick)...as his kicks back in those days were awesome. (1985)
So, you are giving the example of someone who readily beat you when you had ONE YEAR of training with him as to how you make your determination of who are the top WC people in the world.

When I was a one year BJJ white belt, there were hundreds of BJJ blues who pretty much dominated me the same way. Sure didn't mean anything about them being the best in the world.

Sihing73

07-23-2006, 02:36 PM

No, I also think WC can be a potent tool for a guy who is big and strong and who will benefit from techniques that provide speed, rather than power.

One of the problems I have with WC is that it is "marketed" as being for small people against larger, stronger people. I think it is the opposite.

Hello,

While I think that some of what you post is relevant, I would tend to disagree that WC is better suited for the larger person. Of course, if you have two people with the same training, all things being equal, the stronger person will have an advantage.

However, there are plenty of examples of smaller people able to make the art work for them. One glaring example I can think of off the top of my head is Ben Der. While quite a bit smaller than me, I would be hard pressed to match him in power alone. Of course, his power comes from his structure and not his size, as I outwiehged him easily by almost 100 pounds when we met. I also was impressed with Yip Chun when I met him as well.

My Sifu, is smaller than me and he can handle me quite easily, of course that may not be saying much ;) . However, FWIW, many of my students were much larger than me, some were taller by several inches and outweighed my by 75 or more pounds and I was able to handle them fairly well. Of course, my background is not pure WC so perhaps my belief in WC is ill perceived. But I think not, I think that WC is an effective art when taught properly and will enable the average person to survive in an actual street situation. Even if it is to only learn to avoid the confrontation in the first place.

WC is not alone in the distancing from actual combat. All arts suffer from this as they must become more acceptable and safe for those who practice. Even the meeting of the Dog Brothers falls short of actual combat, while it is close in many ways. I know you may disagree with this but consider the outcome of one of this "matches" if you were facing Angel Cabales in a real match most likely you would be carried away with some significant injury rather than have a few bruises. While these matches show that the human body is resilient, they also fall short of the actual bone breaking contact hiwhc made the early days of the FMA so formidable.

I believe that Leo Gajes Pekiti Tirsia group will be forming matches in the near future and will be accepting all comers to limited protection full contact matches. Sounds like a great opportunity to test oneself if interested.

As to visiting Gary Lam I think that would be an excellent opportunity. While Gary may not engage in sparring I am sure that there might be several others who would be interested in doing so, of course I can not speak for anyone else.

stricker

07-23-2006, 02:55 PM

My conclusion would be that he is good DESPITE his WC training, not BECAUSE of it.youve made up your mind already :rolleyes:

also i think its rediculos garys name being used like some pawn in an argument on the internet people should have more respect. setting him up to represent your opinion on a forum is stupid stand up for your own ability dont pass the buck also knifefighter you could of easily visited him by now, hung with some of his students or other la dudes etc but then it might spoil your games hahaha hell you might even have a good time meet some nice people get that rod out your ass hahaha

hey james, hope things are good, getting those changes wired in to your body :)

also nice posts from mrPunch, andrewS (dropping the knowledge as usual !!!)

yenhoi

07-23-2006, 03:38 PM

The essential, most important message here and other threads is that wing chun (or inset old un-evolved extra cultural art here) is superior to other arts/styles/schools because of one, very small, very tiny element of training, be it some cultural/philosopical nonsense or a specifically chinese way of playing slap happy (as in this forums case.)

Also, KF mentioned a very specific group of people some 3-4 pages back that practice "Wing Chun" that he thought had promise. Of course thse comments are ignored.

When can we buy Knifefighter Knifefighting DVDs?

:confused:

sihing

07-23-2006, 05:08 PM

Since MMA based training systems don't do chi sao or forms and, IYO, chi sao and forms are to teach beginners the basics, would you say that someone who wanted to become an effective fighter should not do either of these once he or she moved from the beginning levels?

Dale,

I believe it would not hurt to always participate in forms and/or chi-sao, as this can keep one sharp when concerned with specific WC movement, but to focus on it solely at the advanced levels, would not be recommended, IMO. Forms teach basic structures, balance, coordination, focus and many other things to the practitioner and they serve as a sort of encyclopaedia of what the art/science has to offer. When you are alone and have no one to train with forms can help you maintain control of yourself and what your movement will be when the sh!t it's the fan. Sorta like shadow boxing, but more structured. Physical conditioning also plays a role as well as other solo drills designed to improve fighting movement within you is something all of us should do. Training alone though will not bring your skills up to top-notch levels, especially when you are training in WC IMO. This is where chi-sau helps, it allows you to take what you learned in the forms and apply it in a more alive atmosphere, where you are able to learn how to move more freely and react to energies given off from another human being. This sort of training can increase in intensity & difficulty over time (meaning it is not only a thing to teach basics, but can teach more advanced concepts as well), but this only a piece of the pie. Fighting rarely happens while in fok/bong/tan structures, so what is one to do when there is space btwn yourself and opponent? This is where some time must be spent training & learning about distance fighting and how to perceive movement from another and how to close the gap safely, things like this must be practiced as well as putting yourself in unfamiliar territory, dealing with fighters and or situations you might be dealing with for the street. I will say though, that training for the street and training for competitions are two different animals IMO. Both can apply to one another, a good streetfighter can adjust over time to the ring and visa versa. The key here is to not have a false sense of security or ego, when thinking about what can happen in given situations (top notch MMA fighters can be surprised to on the street just like anyone else, as there are no rules and suckers punches and extreme tactics can be used there, with no ref to stop it when things go bad.) Nobody is invincible, we all feel pain and we all can be caught while in vulnerable situations. Yes, I will agree that top notch MMA fighters (since they are on average the most skilled fighters/athletes in the world today), have a better chance of survival on the street, but this is mostly due to one factor, they train more and harder and like to fight, otherwise why would they be there in the first place fighting MMA. IMO some form of contact reflex drills should be incorporated into the MMA fighters regimen, as when I watch UFC/Pride fights and compare their striking skills to top notch boxers, I still see a big difference, as the top boxers are much faster and set up their opponents rather than just throwing a punch hoping it connects or getting lucky when the guy comes in. Not that I'm any expert of boxing, it's just that I see a difference. When Arlovski fought Silva in the third fight, he was looking like a good boxer on the outside, but when he came into contact range he just stood there when he threw his punches, no movement at all IMO. Plus he was scared of his opponents fists and power, making him tentative when releasing his own tools. He kept on using the same combination, jab/cross, jab/jab/cross and when Silva found his timing he countered much easier in the later rounds. A change of tactics would have been helpful for him.

Hey Jon, things are going pretty good, I think things are sinking in, we'll see though in a few months. I'm training pretty regularly (much more than before), and it feels good to be a student again and learning/understanding new things all the time. It's also great teaching what little I know to others as it makes me think about it all and become creative. I agree with you about having Sifu Lam's name brought into this. He is IMO one of the best WC instructors around, but to have something set up for him, without his knowledge or OK is wrong in my book. The fact of the matter is, after meeting with the man you either believe in what he is saying/teaching or you don't. If you don't then move on, it's as simple as that. I'm sure people have met him and thought he had nothing to offer, it happens to everyone. Let's leave him out of it guys...

James

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 05:59 PM

also i think its rediculos garys name being used like some pawn in an argument on the internet people should have more respect.
Exactly... I think it is extremely disrespectful.

How would you like it if a bunch of yahoos on the internet that you had never even met were trying to set you up against some stranger that they think should "check you out".

However, there are plenty of examples of smaller people able to make the art work for them. One glaring example I can think of off the top of my head is Ben Der. While quite a bit smaller than me, I would be hard pressed to match him in power alone. Of course, his power comes from his structure and not his size, as I outwiehged him easily by almost 100 pounds when we met. I also was impressed with Yip Chun when I met him as well.

My Sifu, is smaller than me and he can handle me quite easily, of course that may not be saying much ;) . However, FWIW, many of my students were much larger than me, some were taller by several inches and outweighed my by 75 or more pounds and I was able to handle them fairly well.
Are you talking full contact fighting/sparring or chi sao? If you are talking about the latter, your point is moot.

While these matches show that the human body is resilient, they also fall short of the actual bone breaking contact hiwhc made the early days of the FMA so formidable.
How was the "bone breaking contact" that they did in the “early days” different from what we are doing now?

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 06:32 PM

youve made up your mind already :rolleyes:
Well kind of.

But tell me, what exactly do you think he might he show me that would change my mind about the system of WC itself?

BTW, what is your background with him and where do you do your MMA training?

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 07:24 PM

also knifefighter you could of easily visited him by now, hung with some of his students or other la dudes etc but then it might spoil your games hahaha hell you might even have a good time meet some nice people get that rod out your ass hahaha)
This is true... One or two of his "guys" have actually invited me down to do some training with them. My schedule never quite worked out in terms of hooking up with them.

A very good friend of mine also has either a cousin, nephew, or brother in law, who is a former student of his. As of yet, I haven't trained with him either.

However, that doesn't mean that it won't happen in the future.

I am pretty open to meeting people from different styles, but training with more WC people is not exactly a huge priority in my life. As it is, I don't even have time to train with all the different grapplers and MMA guys that are in my area and who I feel offer me much better training opportunities.

I usually have only one additional training day in a week that is open for other than my normal training sessions.

Let's see, I can spend my extra training day driving an hour out and an hour back to go hook up and do some chi sao...

... or, I spend those driving hours and head on out John Oano's open mat sessions and roll with a bunch of other competitive grapplers who come in from all over the area to roll.

... or I can work with one of my training buddies, getting ready for the next Dog Bros.

... or I can ride my bike for five minutes and stop by the Machados down the street from me and roll with some of their guys.

... or I can hook up with some of the local wrestlers and work on clinching and tie ups.

... or I can ride my bike 5 minutes in the other direction and go to one of the two Muay Thai gyms that are also down the street with me and train.

... or I can spend an extra couple of hours doing conditioning runs up and down the Sand Dune.

Which ones do you think make more sense for me to choose with that little extra training time that I have?

Why should I specifically spend a free training day searching these guys out, when I could be using that same time to train with top level guys who have a much better likelyhood of taking my game to the next level?

This whole thing also does kind of beg the question. The posters here, most of whom have never met Gary, are telling me how important it is for me to seek him out. Do you think he shares the same opinion? I'm betting there is a good probability he has at least heard about my views, as Ernie, who is tight with him, frequents this forum.

If he thought this was so important, why isn't he telling me the same thing? Maybe he doesn't think it is that important, huh?
Maybe he thinks my 30 years experience is enough for me to form my own opinion without having to go out and check out yet another "top" guy.
Maybe he isn't interested in being the messiah to convert all non-believers to the WC way.

Which begs yet ANOTHER question:

Victor-

Since you are a famous BJJ basher, with all the "wh0re position" and other nonsense, how about following your same advice?
I know Renzo's guys.

How about I send you to his school to "check things out"?
I'm pretty sure they can fit you in one of the classes this week.

Whaddaya say? Are you up for it?
What would be better for you, Wednesday, Thursday or Saturday?

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 08:24 PM

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.

There is another, even more important, reason not to hook up with Gary and his guys.

This is the Bizzarro world. Getting together with them would result in a collision of the Bizzarro world with the normal world.

In the words of the famous philosopher, George Costanza, one should attempt at all costs to never let worlds collide. :)

Ernie

07-23-2006, 08:30 PM

This whole thing also does kind of beg the question. The posters here, most of whom have never met Gary, are telling me how important it is for me to seek him out. Do you think he shares the same opinion? I'm betting there is a good probability he has at least heard about my views, as Ernie, who is tight with him, frequents this forum.

If he thought this was so important, why isn't he telling me the same thing? Maybe he doesn't think it is that important, huh?
Maybe he thinks my 30 years experience is enough for me to form my own valid opinion without having to go out and check out yet another "top" guy.
Maybe he isn't interested in being the messiah to convert all non-believers to the WC way.

?

Dale ,
First off I personally agree with almost everything you have to say about wing chun ,, [one reason I see no reason to get involved ha-ha ]
and I have brought out those issues time and time again over the years ,, I have also had way more opportunity then you to see and feel all kinds of WC guys from all over the world [ today was no exception , worked with a teacher with 10-15 years experience ,,, and found he new very little about body mechanics and fight conditioning , or applying wing chun concepts and attributes in the real world ,, it was just the usual wing chun shapes ,techniques and chi sau ,,, pretty much nothing to offer in a real combative environment ,,but I digress :) ]

I also know that your a cool dude that enjoys messing with the ''steering wheel jockeys'' , so I don't want to screw up your fun hahaha

As for the whole Gary Lam holy grail thing ,,, that's just funny and it was amusing to read , cool that guys give him love , but people should really step up to the plate and put there @ss on the line ,,,,,, instead of offering another mans ,, as you said If you worked out with Gary and he had game it bears no connection to anyone else having game .

they are not Gary and Gary doesn't rep the wing chun world at large ,,, he also agrees with allot of what you have to say ,,, most wing chun and there training methods suck ,,, this is based on his on 40 years of being in the game !

why is Gary different ,,, simple when he was one of WSL better guys in school and was very full of wing chun pride ,, he trained some fighters and sent them to fight in Thai tournaments ... and all 5 got there @sees handed to them in the first round ,,yet they kicked ass in chi sau !! =)
so instead of doing more chi sau ,,Gary hoped on a plane and went to Thailand and spent a year training and fighting over there ,,, came home learned ''how'' to train and ''condition '' his fighters and the next year 3 out of 5 won and this went on for over 15 years ,, his Thai school is still one of the better schools out there . I think it was called top fight or something like that .

Gary developed his wing chun training methods based on the lessons learned from fighting skilled conditioned fighters , he still taught wing chun but he needed to incorporate kick and clinch work ,,, he realized wing chun had nothing to do with techniques but understanding body mechanics and how to make motions more efficient and still powerful ,,,,, this is still his passion and he continues to research and develop ,,, using wing chun as a road map but not a trap .

WSL was the same way having a boxing back ground understanding what getting hit and hitting was all about , he cut out or ''modified '' allot of the junk that didn't fly , changed the way chi sau is done and kept things down to a few basic motions based on solid body mechanics and tested under pressure .

this is not the normal mindset .

but my friend this thread is ''all about you'' so keep fighting the good fight , my door is always open , no ego and no need to fly the wing chun flag , I know I can only grow and get better by being open and training with skilled guys , good luck in your comp ,, I will try and make it if I can maybe Sunday , my Sat I have to go visit my bro in palm springs ... email me or call me anytime man;)

Knifefighter

07-23-2006, 09:07 PM

Once again the voice of grounded realism.

You guys should read what Ernie posted... about five more times... and then think about it for about an hour. Or maybe a couple of weeks.

It was way fun having a thread about me, but I've been wasting much too much time here in the Bizzarro world, at the expense of getting my real world work done.

I think Ernie has said everything that needs to be said.

So move along people... Theres' nothing more to see here.

Well..... unless Victor wants to go to Renzo's.

But he probably won't, so... we're done here folks. Keep the traffic moving along. Stay in your lanes and don't speed.

omarthefish

07-23-2006, 09:12 PM

This whole thread is just....wierd.

Anyways....

Exactly... I think it is extremely disrespectful.

How would you like it if a bunch of yahoos on the internet that you had never even met were trying to set you up against some stranger that they think should "check you out".

lol.

Been thinking about this a lot lately. So many times in reference to Taiji I will think to myself, "Well **** dude! I know a guy in Xi'an.....gonna be in [x] location giving a seminar...." and start day dreaming about who I wish to god would should up and cross hands with my teacher so I could prove a point....:confused:

Then that logic posted above hits me again and I think about how incredibly ****ed my teacher would be if he so much as even just had an intuition that I was setting him up for challenges by proxy. lol. What to do.......?

Then I keep thinking about it and go, "****....I guess the only way to really be able to open peoples eyes about [x] is gonna be that I'll just have to get that good myself and then I can go meet whoever I want face to face to make my points or prove whatever about whatever. Throwing names around is just really bad form unless, and this is an important point here, the other person is actually asking you who is out there. Like if KF came up here and posted asking, "Who do you think it out there worth checking out/challenging?" or something along those lines. But pro-actively telling some guy to go seek out [x] for a challenge............

That's just really, really bad form.

Liddel

07-23-2006, 11:26 PM

Wow this tread has gone way off. Hit and a miss from the original post IMO.

At the end of the day, Your experience KF is something to aspire to, from my POV.
But Ving Tsun HAS made me a BETTER fighter, so it def has merit. It CAN be good in its relm.

I use it FULL CONTACT now, but its taken a while to adapt and recognise what and how it applies to todays allrounders. The learning never stops for me.

My mindset has changed about VT, but my core principles and power engine come from it.
It's in my muscle memory... though some wouldnt recognise it as VT.

I just find it a shame, like so many out there that agree, you think good VT is good chi sao ?
Correct me if im wrong...

I just think good VT can only come from Full contact, and it does exist. It's in the minority, a freak of world VT culture. But most are not trying to be proffesional.

If they act like it - let them.. Im a believer in Karma.

VT works for me, in my own way. Anyone think different, i dont care !
So why do you ? or more to the point why do you come here ?

Your more than entitled, im not trying to say you arent. Im Just curious :)

What about the rest of you posters, why do you come here ?
I really want to know and it may shed some light on this thread, for me anyway.

P.S Im off to my to my cousins Aikido class to tell them the're all dreamers
A least us chunners have someone to look down on too... (sarcasm)

stricker

07-24-2006, 02:35 AM

Well kind of.

But tell me, what exactly do you think he might he show me that would change my mind about the system of WC itself?

BTW, what is your background with him and where do you do your MMA training?ernie explained it above pretty much. i think youd come away thinking well there not alll ****heads hahaha.

my background iwht gary? not a lot. i went over to his to train while i was in la, ended up only getting one session in after ****ing my shoulder up sub wrestling on about day 3 of my trip out there :mad: but went back a few times hung out with them picked up what i could...

but i did come away with vast respect for him and his students, also a real idea not some internet fantasy which is why this **** makes me laugh/cry hahaha.

where do i train mma? you wont have heard of it. its a small club with a very high level of quality. theres a dude whos fought thai in lumpini, dude whos choked out 3x world bjj champ, another uk muay thai champ, some regional/smaller show title holders etc then a bunch of people with just real solid skills years of boxing thai judo/bjj/wrestling etc then a few people at the bottom of the ladder like me. now im not saying that makes me anything special and im not name dropping or gonna use that to make me sound more than i am as im on the lowest rung on the ladder but i do get exposure... i'll pm you the name if you want but it dont matter out here like everyone i got respect for dont want to see it dragged through the mud. [ultimatewinghcun/victor you may remember a training clip ernie posted ;) day in day out training nothing special filmed by a visitor warts and all not edited to look good etc]

ps dude your spare evening you could do any one of those things or check out any number of other people first totally agree with you i just think you should for the amount of time you spend posting on here :p

Ultimatewingchun

07-24-2006, 06:06 AM

"So, you are giving the example of someone who readily beat you when you had ONE YEAR of training with him as to how you make your determination of who are the top WC people in the world.

When I was a one year BJJ white belt, there were hundreds of BJJ blues who pretty much dominated me the same way. Sure didn't mean anything about them being the best in the world." (Dale Frank)

***COMPLETELY WRONG...

I started wing chun in 1975 with Moy Yat (trained for 8 years)..became William Cheung's student in August, 1983...the "match" took place 2 years later.

So I had a total of 10 years in wing chun at the time.

..........................

Gee...How did I know long in advance of making any post on this thread that sooner or later Dale would be talking about me going to Renzo's...???

Could it be that I'm used to his diversionary tactics by now?

As for me (or anyone else) "volunterring" Gary: as has already been pointed out on this thread by someone pages ago - Gary volunteers himself on one of the vids that we've all got to see by now, I'm sure...(I'm paraphrasing now - but something to the effect that "if you don't believe that wing chun works come and see me and I'll show you.")

Seems like those words were made to order for Dale.

I think I've made my point on this thread - and it's not about me going to some BJJ website forum and ripping up the style and everyone connected to it (which I've never done)...since that's not who I am, and since I have a lot of respect for BJJ and for the Gracie's (although I continue to believe that in the final analysis catch wrestling offers more for those who want to learn grappling).

As for Ernie's post - it was BRILLIANT..and should be read and reread.

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 06:57 AM

I just find it a shame, like so many out there that agree, you think good VT is good chi sao ?
Correct me if im wrong...
No, far from it. It’s probably what a lot of the VT guys are doing now.

As a matter of fact, I’d venture a guess that if you were to look and VT vs. WT, the VTer’s are the fighters of the group- especially the European guys. I have always defended the various clips of the VT guys doing their full contact sparring when the WC steering wheel guys came on and said what they were doing was crappy WC.

I just think good VT can only come from Full contact, and it does exist.
Exactly!

So why do you ? or more to the point why do you come here ?
You must not have read the entire thread. I explained further back why I come here and that it is mostly entertainment value. It's full of drama... kind of like being a player in professional wrestling. (And occasionally, someone will give a good answer that gives me some good insight into their training.)

In the end I don't care how other people train.

What goes on here in the Bizarro world is just intellectual debate (of course we could debate just how intellectual it is).

gabe

07-24-2006, 06:57 AM

Omar: "But that's not the case on THIS thread. I refer you to page one for reference. "

Are you kidding me? This thread is on a WC forum and KF's history here speaks for itself. He readily admits his love of debating on this WC forum. If you want to ignore it, that's up to you and you can keep asking the ridiculous question of why are we speaking to KF about WC on a WC forum.:eek: :p

"The questions posed on page one of this thread by the original poster can be answered easily enough over the internet."

I am referring to questions, valid questions, directed at WC training that I have read over and over posted by KF. Ones that he readily admits asking. Ones that I've asked myself.

"Fill in the blank with whatever art you want. That's what is meant by the mysterious phrase "or whatever" that I included in the list of arts you could suggest. Sorry the use of the hypothetical ot make a point was too fancy for you to follow."

What point are you trying to make? He's after fighting skills, so what? He's asking questions about WC, I'm specifically answering them. Your hypothetical does not apply. :( If he was on some general forum throwing general questions out there and some nutrider started hopping up and down begging him to look at WC, then I'd understand your post. But instead, he's consistently on this forum, a WC forum, debating WC's merits- so I say go see a local WC guy. What part of that do you not understand?

"Point remains the same. Endlessly insisting that he just didn't find the right WC guy and implying that somehow if he did he could have his eyes opened is retarded. No. I actuallyt don't like being his cheerleader because most of the time I think he's an ignoramous when it comes to CMA but in this particular case he is speaking the voice of reason and the rest of you all are coming off like a bunch of thoroughly brainwashed nutriders. (with a couple of exceptions. AndrewS comes to mind and I am sure there are one or two others that I missed)"

If you endlessly ask the same questions, you get the same answer. Research is face to face. Nothing about technical uses can be argued over the internet. If he is like me, then he has to feel it for himself. Any fighter knows this. There's no holy grail, no WC enlightenment, just plain research. You take what you like, you discard the rest.

"The "advice" to keep looking has no merit. My guess is that he (KF) has got better WC than the majority of idjuts singing it's praises. I can demonstrate better WC than most of the people I've met who actually train it just based on my general southern gong fu skill and the cross training I've done in the past. Get over it. It's a stupid "argument" (as in bulding an argument for debate) and I expect KF keeps trolling the WC forums becuase........."

I'd like any of you to point out when I've ever sung any praises about WC? And why continue pointing out all the crappy WCers? There's tons of them. So what. At my old boxing gym, there's tons of crappy boxers who do nothing but shadowbox when they go train. So what? I don't have any need or responsibility to defend them. Amateur strawman arguments.:p

Once again, if he already has the answer, why does he keep asking? The only way is go meet up with people and exchange. He asks the questions, that is my response. It's not different than what I have done and what everyone has to do. If I have questions about grappling, I go look for a grappler. If he wins or loses against me has no meaning, it's just research. But it's only good research if he is a good grappler. You paying attention? You turds want to turn it into a style vs. style. Who cares who wins or loses. Nobody's a$$ is on the line, you people been watching too many kung fu movies.:cool:

When my friends and I get together, there are no labels, just skill sets and we exchange. If I had questions, and he recommended someone to go see, I'd thank him. It's reasonable. You can't understand a guard or chi sao through a keyboard. Now, I certainly don't care if he is persuaded or not with regards to WC, it's just pointless to debate it on the internet. But I understand that he likes the NHB debate and enjoys pouncing on the crappy ones. That's fine and that's where I left it until I read a few of the silly posts over the weekend.

This thread is full of amateur arguments of style vs. style or strawman vs. strawman from the KF cheerleaders and the WC nutriders. And those silly challenge discussions.:rolleyes: Now, while I am not a WC lover or nutrider, I'm also not KF detractor. The guy has done a lot to be respected, regardless of what he posts on some internet forum.

My one and only point of going to meet others of a different style to exchange and discuss questions is just too difficult to grasp I guess. You people seem to equate going to meet up with someone as going to be an a$$hole to him. It's respect that people even brought up his name and he should be given the same respect you'd give anyone. Everyone I've gone to "check out" has ended up being a descent friend. Looked what happened when sihing (?) went to meet him. That's the result of any civilized meeting.
This thread was silly from the very first post. What a waste.

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 07:05 AM

where do i train mma? you wont have heard of it. its a small club with a very high level of quality.
So, how does the training at your WC school compare to what is done at the MMA school in terms of contact, live drills, and sparring?

i just think you should for the amount of time you spend posting on here :p
Your point about spending time posting is well taken Unfortunately, my posting time is done on my work time, which means it wouldn' free time up to do anything except my work (which would actually be a very good thing.. one of these days I'm going to join a Posters' Annonymous 12-step program).

(My god!!! I just noticed I have over 2,000 posts!!! What the he11 is wrong with me???).

It's just so hard not to argue with guys like Victor...

... and Gabe

... here we go again.

Just when I thought I got to take a rest.

I'll be back.... unless I find that 12 step program in the meantime.

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 07:13 AM

Actually, let me try this:

Victor & Gabe-

Excellent points.
I agree wholeheartedly.

That should shut them up.

Ultimatewingchun

07-24-2006, 07:16 AM

By God...I think you finally did shut me up!!! :eek: :cool:

gabe

07-24-2006, 07:35 AM

Ay! Good luck in your tourney. Let us know how it goes.

And Omar and 7star, you paying attention?:rolleyes: Probably get a few posts from them arguing what KF agrees with;) Can't even cheerlead right.:D .............

:p

AmanuJRY

07-24-2006, 09:07 AM

Let's see, I can spend my extra training day driving an hour out and an hour back to go hook up and do some chi sao...

... or, I spend those driving hours and head on out John Oano's open mat sessions and roll with a bunch of other competitive grapplers who come in from all over the area to roll.

... or I can work with one of my training buddies, getting ready for the next Dog Bros.

... or I can ride my bike for five minutes and stop by the Machados down the street from me and roll with some of their guys.

... or I can hook up with some of the local wrestlers and work on clinching and tie ups.

... or I can ride my bike 5 minutes in the other direction and go to one of the two Muay Thai gyms that are also down the street with me and train.

Geeez!

I wish I had options like that...

I got a couple half a55ed mma gyms or Chris Kent to choose from.

The best bet around here is the Gold's Gym and the Boxing, Mui Thai, and Jiu Jitsu groups that meet there.

Idaho can be lame at times.

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 09:45 AM

Geeez!
or Chris Kent to choose from.
Do you know Chris? We trained at the old Kali Academy together.

darkwater108

07-24-2006, 10:08 AM

OK, just because I liked KF answer on why he posts here. It does often seem like a pro wrestleing match. Reminds me of all the debates about wrestling not being real. Is to...is not....is to....is not...... Personally I like the fact that everyone here quotes sh*t that was said six, eight, nine pages ago. Maybe it me and my american short attention span, but I cannot remember half of what I wrote ten seconds after I wrote it so I find it amazing that you guys can go back so many pages to quote some bull***t. I have a lot of free time, but ****......
I don't have a point or a question really, more just an observation. If I am supposed to make a point then I will make this one.

KF you are an ass and you are making the world a better place for it. :) Keep pushing buttons bro. I get ****ed at half the crap you say but only because I agree most of the time. You obviously have skills and I would post some questions to you at times, but I know I would just get my ass handed to me and everyone would jump on the fact that you said this insted of that and I am quoting you from page 33 line 12 when you wrote WC/VT is a big doody head. Have fun.

Mr Punch

07-24-2006, 10:53 AM

...This thread was silly from the very first post. What a waste.Well don't you feel a d!ck for wasting your time with hundreds of words on it then? :p

I wanted to ask KF a couple of things based on his perspective as someone skilled in various martial arts as to why WC didn't suit him and more importantly and unusually given his opinion, if he thought there was anything useful in it. It's the same question I've asked my shooto teacher who learned the 'whole of the wing chun system' in Hong Kong before completely abandoning it, and strangely enough, I think it's relevant to a wing chun forum, so thanks again to KF and everyone who answered seriously before the 'go see Gary Lam' mantra came in.

Incidentally I'd love to go see Gary Lam (among many others), and I'd also love KF's training choices (their are lots of choices here too, but little time), and while we're on the subject I think it should be pretty much any serious MAist's goal to train as much like the Dog Bros as possible. It's not even that I think what they're doing is especially cool, just that it seems to be a natural progression in sensible training.

I like WC. I know it has its faults, mainly crap teaching in outdated methods like overemphasis on non-live training. But I like it. For me, though I like training with all kinds of people from all kinds of arts, I'll always come back to WC and finding what works and what doesn't within that system. Why limit myself to the box of one system? I don't. I train many, but I do believe in WSL's saying about WC being anything that works. It's a catch all for those chunners who believe the system has everything, and so it can be used as a cop out by the purists. Ie, a tech like a middle roundhouse kick can have people saying "Well, that works, so it must be WC... and in fact by coincidence my WC has it in blah blah blah"... you get the picture! Well that's crap!

My WC doesn't have a middle roundhouse... what it does have is the concept that anything goes in biu gee, and in that form it has huen bo. To me huen bo and the first stance we learn has the basis of what you need for a good roundhouse... as my aikijutsu koryu teacher showed me with his teaching of the roundhouse through the sumo shiko leg-raising manuevre. Generally, it doesn't help me to reinvent the wheel and try too hard to use any WC principles in my roundhouse when the Thai one I'm taught in shooto works better, but sometimes it's nice when they show up naturally.

And I'd have never found out any of these parallels without cross-training.

So thanks again to KF and everyone else who thought about it and kept some objectivity.

I'll be back tomorrow with a separate thread to answer KF's question to me earlier, which could probably fill a book btw!

gabe

07-24-2006, 11:19 AM

Well don't you feel a d!ck for wasting your time with hundreds of words on it then? :p

Correctamundo!:) Total waste.

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 11:21 AM

KF you are an ass
Very true... but only in the Bizarro world. That's why worlds should not collide. If you met me in the real world, the KF you have grown to hate would no longer exist as you know him, making the Bizarro world a much duller place.

Hey, I didn't know you could say ass here.
How come you can't say ****zer?

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 11:26 AM

Correctamundo!:) Total waste.
Dont believe him. He's just saying that because he got pw3nd by Omar.

darkwater108

07-24-2006, 11:36 AM

You can say ass because the magic message board knows that we mean "donkey" and not the kind with a hole.:D

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 11:41 AM

You can say ass because the magic message board knows that we mean "donkey" and not the kind with a hole.:D
Then how come when I write ****zer, it doesn't know that I mean a wrestling move and not peeing on the floor?

Oh, that's right....this is a kung fu forum.
It doesn't know about wrestling.
Bwahahahahah!!!

darkwater108

07-24-2006, 11:49 AM

I didnt know you could say wrestling on this board!!! I am disgusted. I thought this was a quality Kung Fu board. I am out of this low class board.:rolleyes:

gabe

07-24-2006, 12:44 PM

Dont believe him. He's just saying that because he got pw3nd by Omar.

Are you serious?:rolleyes:
Either you agreed with what I said, or you think I got owned.
Suit yourself.

stricker

07-24-2006, 01:14 PM

So, how does the training at your WC school compare to what is done at the MMA school in terms of contact, live drills, and sparring?no comparison :o

AmanuJRY

07-24-2006, 01:17 PM

Do you know Chris? We trained at the old Kali Academy together.

Not personally. I have a couple old friends training with him (at least one still is).

I've been to an 'open house' kind of event with John Little talking about Bruce's writings and such, nothing about tech/training. I've wanted to meet him in a more private setting and discuss sticks and savate.

Also, one of the guys in our group briefly trained with Dan some time ago (I don't know the dates) along with Chris. He was going to join up with Chris exept one of his top students and my friend had some personal conflict/dispute so he ended up finding us.

AmanuJRY

07-24-2006, 01:25 PM

Very true... but only in the Bizarro world. That's why worlds should not collide. If you met me in the real world, the KF you have grown to hate would no longer exist as you know him, making the Bizarro world a much duller place.

Hey, I didn't know you could say ass here.
How come you can't say ****zer?
......
Then how come when I write ****zer, it doesn't know that I mean a wrestling move and not peeing on the floor?

Oh, that's right....this is a kung fu forum.
It doesn't know about wrestling.
Bwahahahahah!!!

That's rich...you just p0wned this whole website. :D

gabe

07-24-2006, 01:46 PM

Oh, and KF, how dare you suggest to Victor to go check out Renzo! Please leave his name out of this thread.:D

Very disrespectful.:p

Actually, great advice for anyone interesed in BJJ.

Knifefighter

07-24-2006, 05:04 PM

no comparison :o
Can you give a comparison of what you think are the strong and weak points of each type of training that you do?

Liddel

07-24-2006, 10:19 PM

In the end I don't care how other people train.

What goes on here in the Bizarro world is just intellectual debate (of course we could debate just how intellectual it is).

:D Some here are def taking this whole discussion too seriously thats for sure !

Perhaps some strong feelings about the realism of abilities that different people have here :rolleyes:

Go train.:cool:

Sihing73

07-25-2006, 04:21 PM

Exactly... I think it is extremely disrespectful.

How would you like it if a bunch of yahoos on the internet that you had never even met were trying to set you up against some stranger that they think should "check you out".

Are you talking full contact fighting/sparring or chi sao? If you are talking about the latter, your point is moot.

How was the "bone breaking contact" that they did in the “early days” different from what we are doing now?

Hello KF,

FWIW I would never attempt to set anyone up against anyone else irregardless of what I thought. If I came across that way then I appoligize.

As to Chi Sau or full contact and the point being moot; this can always be argued from both sides. No, I do not equate Chi Sau with fighting and think that those who do are missing the point. Still, the underlying results of proper body structure etc can be felt and serve to give an indication of ones abilities. FWIW being the best technician or in the best coniditon of anyone in the world does not equate to being the best fighter. There are plenty of cases of those who break all the rules but just can't seem to be stopped. I like to go back to the studies of those shot with guns, since most of us would agree, at least I hope :eek: that a bullet would be a definite halter of most fights. Yet, there are case studies of people shot with what should have been fatal wounds who not only survived but killed their attackers. The human body is a wonderous thing and the human mind is even more so. The mind has a lot to do with the outcome of any conflict. More so in some cases than the physical attributes. This can go both ways, a person who just won't quit or the person who just can't do what it takes to stop the other person.

As to the differences between early FMA contests or fights and todays events, such as the Dog Brothers meetings; it is pretty simple; the early fights ended with one person injured and on the way to the hospital. While events like this are a great tool it is a mistake to equate them with a real fight. They provide a piece of the pie but by no means are they the whole picture. People, IMHO, who point to them as proof of their "fighting ability" are still deluding themselves as it still falls short of a real confrontation.

Each person is welcome to approach combat from their own perspective. Some want an excellent sport fighting application while others try to make training as close to reality as possible. Unfortunately, or perhaps for the best, we are limited in how close to reality we can actually come. Having said that, it is unlikely that any of us are in a situation where our MARTIAL ARTS SKILLS, are the deciding factor in our day to day survival. With that in mind each person needs to consider whether they really need to train to an excessive level to have an effective art. For most people the training they receive with the addition of the proper mindset will be enough for most situations.

While I can applaud those who take it to the next level, I do not need them to preach to me about what true combat is. I could be full of cr@p or perhaps I have found that what I do served me well enough when needed. Either way, posting on the internet is pretty meaningless when trying to convince others of how good or bad my "fighting ability" really is.

Sihing73

07-25-2006, 04:26 PM

:D Some here are def taking this whole discussion too seriously thats for sure !

Perhaps some strong feelings about the realism of abilities that different people have here :rolleyes:

Go train.:cool:

Hello Liddel,

I certainly need to do more training as I admit I suck :o

FWIW if anyone takes something posted on the net too seriously then they may need to not only do more training but find another outlet for frustration as well.

Each person, included me, has their own perception of what constitutes reality and it is doubtful that anyones mind will be changed by what they read on the net. However, for those with an open mind boards such as this can help to deepen their own understanding of their approach.

Knifefighter

07-25-2006, 05:39 PM

As to the differences between early FMA contests or fights and todays events, such as the Dog Brothers meetings; it is pretty simple; the early fights ended with one person injured and on the way to the hospital. While events like this are a great tool it is a mistake to equate them with a real fight. They provide a piece of the pie but by no means are they the whole picture. People, IMHO, who point to them as proof of their "fighting ability" are still deluding themselves as it still falls short of a real confrontation.

While the "olden day" fights are definitely to be respected, not all of them ended in "death and destruction". Since I trained with some of the old FMA masters and talked to them, I know that they did not always end with a trip to the hospital. Often one guy got hammered good and gave up.

As far as how realistic the DB gatherings are, if you are going to go by injury rates, then they are as realistic as it gets. Almost no fighter leaves without injuries. It often takes me two or three weeks to recover afterwards. In the last gathering three fighters were KO'ed with strikes to the head and at least one went to the emergency room afterwards for stitches.

Not to mention the fact that we often do multiple opponent fights and fight with other weapons besides sticks.

I'm not saying the DB gatherings are necessarily more realistic than the traditional fights. In some ways they are and in some ways they aren't.

Sihing73

07-25-2006, 05:52 PM

Not to mention the fact that we often do multiple opponent fights and fight with other weapons besides sticks.

I'm not saying the DB gatherings are necessarily more realistic than the traditional fights. In some ways they are and in some ways they aren't.

Hello KF,

Fair enough and please do not take my posting as in any way a bash on the DB's. They have ties to Pekiti Tirsia so they must have some good points :D JK

We can agree with your last statement regarding the realism of such events. In some ways they are often as close to reality as possible while in other ways safety dictates the training.

lawrenceofidaho

07-25-2006, 06:05 PM

Just back from a long vacation and wanted to check in on things.......

This thread is of interest to me, because since joining this forum back in early 2004, I feel I am a much better martial artist, and some of that is due, in part, to Knifefighter and his posts here.......

I admit that I initially thought Dale was kind of a derogetory "A--hole", -merely trolling around on here, but after seriously considering the questions in his posts and trying things out for myself, found that he was right much more often than I felt he was wrong.

If people actually listened to the "devil's advocates" and critics more often, Wing Chun would be a much stronger art, IMO.

-Lawrence

p.s.- While thanks also go out to Ernie (especially), Andrew S., Andrew N., Victor, Terence N., Ray, Phil, and some others for helping open my mind to new ideas, -since Dale is under attack here, I think it's important to acknowledge the role he played in encouraging me to seek out new ground and learn things for myself.

Knifefighter will always be an important contributor to this forum, so long as people are not too brainwashed to listen to criticisms.

anerlich

07-26-2006, 03:18 PM

Well said, Lawrence.

stricker

07-27-2006, 06:14 AM

Can you give a comparison of what you think are the strong and weak points of each type of training that you do?well i havent got time to write a book but heres a few things. also they have to be put in my personal context etc (one is i never actually go to wing chun club proper just do a technical/chi sao class with my teacher and a few other people.)

everything at mma club is directly applicable in a real fight.

everything at mma club is alive and approximates sparring even if its sort of a fixed drill.

the coaching aspect of partner work is emphasised more at mma.

everything at mma has conditioning taken into account and can you appy it directly as soon as possible under stress and exhaustion for 3 five minute rounds of hell.

people at mma know for real they have a fight coming in x weeks time where they're putting their health and facial features on the line in a ring or cage (or sub wrestling/thai) and will have to beat the crap out of someone as hard as they can.

at mma if you cant get a technique down within a session and use it in sparring within a few more have it engrained in the depths of your soul before your next fight you drop it.

bascially its the difference between prepping for a fight and learning a martial art.

another easy comparison is clinch wrestling vs chi sao. clinch wrestling we start sparring then add techniques in, in wing chun its the other direction.

also at mma people who arent qualified to coach, havent got significant ring experience, have >10% body fat, have less than 10 years experience etc are in the minority. you have to ask whats a fair comparison though...

thats just a few things off the top of my head.

omarthefish

07-27-2006, 06:34 AM

Knifefighter

07-27-2006, 08:46 AM

thats just a few things off the top of my head.
Thanks, striker.

You've given a lot of the positive points of MMA training.

What do you think are some of the positive aspects of WC training?

stricker

07-27-2006, 09:59 AM

hahaha yup read it back and its a big wing chun diss

positive aspects of wing chun are

how its put together more concepts less technique oriented working with forces and geometry dont think FEEEEL hahaha

nice mixture of striking and wrestling/controlling

explicit focus on body mechanics (might only get that by trial and error after years of training otherwise) eg go straight to higher level skills (if that makes sense) of sensitivity structure body mechanics (see the skinny dude clip on the other thread)

the whole chi sao thing

focus on not using strength (use structure, yielding, relaxation, cutting, redirecting, sliding etc)

basically the usual wing chun sales pitch you get from any wing chunner. and despite the criticism its true.

(another list off the top of my head theres more things than this)

but... one in a million who can actually fight with it...

now why i stick with wing chun and not just diss it off and do mma is i can see the potential it has and where its going. a lot of it is ****ed up like imagine if boxing got run underground by boxercise or muay thai got made nearly extinct by tae bo hahaha not enough getting out there and experiencing stuff, addressing realistic training, kicking, clinching, boxing, wrestling, footwork distance and timing etc and using the **** that wing chuns good at!!!

but if you can find someone who has wing chun skills a base of strength and conditioning and experience with other fighters its a thing of beauty

now compared to the mma which is more focussed on bashing people you could write it off as just an intellectual bag of wank but that bag of wank has helped me figure bits out at mma in my head in terms of body mechanics and feeling and on a few occasions had people say cool good technique or looking good or your stronger than you look etc or even a few things straight out of wing chun popped out when i wasnt thinking about it and i try hard to keep the 2 seperate :)

hahaha im rambling again gonna get out of my depth with the Internet Debating Society of Forum Experts hahaha but i have my reasons my direction (also one thing more addressed at mma is individuality ;) )

man keep this going and youll have the longest thread ever to your name. hahah a lets hear anyone elses thoughts :)

Knifefighter

07-27-2006, 10:13 AM

Stricker-

Great post.

Points well taken... good to get another perspective of someone who has done both MMA & WC, rather than the usual babble from the brainwashed steering wheel trainers.

Knifefighter

07-27-2006, 07:08 PM

Back to the original question:

I just thought of another time WC works.

Against other WC guys who are also fighting as if they are steering a car.

omarthefish

07-27-2006, 07:27 PM

What sticker's comments highlight is that the "problem" with WC today is not a problem with the essential nature of the art so much as a problem with the state of the art today.

The ideas are all pretty darn good.

The drills are all pretty darn usefull.

The way it tends to all get put together and the kind of ...sorry to say it but cultish mentality just throws the whole thing out of whack. I'm over here in China learning Taiji where the "party line" on Taijiquan could never be stronger and WC is one of the few rare arts I see getting serious credit. Of course nobody trains it around here, just looking at it from the outside and evaluating the ideas and methods put out there. We tend to be VERY ...uh..."our style is t3h D34dly BESTEST!" but at the same time, NEVER look down on or try to minimize the danger presented by other methods. Even with my own teachers fairly nationalistic tendencies, he still will be deadly serious in his attitude warning me about the skill level of those guys with that "Brazilian ground gungfu" (literal translation of his term for BJJ lol).

So what I mean by "cultish" is the annoying tunnel vision that tends to predominate WC training. Not NEARLY enough time and energy spent of honest assesment and reaseach on how these ideas play out with someone who is not playing the same game as you. It's like incest. Not enough challenging of the ideas presented in the class. Not enough honest research into and training for stuff outside the WC box.

AndrewS

07-27-2006, 09:54 PM

Dale writes:

I just thought of another time WC works.
Against other WC guys who are also fighting as if they are steering a car.

Better to draw them in, use some head motion, and slam a couple of hooks or overhands in. People who play 'sticking' games (whatever art) are in their element if you care to play that game; it's usually higher percentage to break the rules and change the game.

Omar writes:

So what I mean by "cultish" is the annoying tunnel vision that tends to predominate WC training. Not NEARLY enough time and energy spent of honest assesment and reaseach on how these ideas play out with someone who is not playing the same game as you. It's like incest. Not enough challenging of the ideas presented in the class. Not enough honest research into and training for stuff outside the WC box.

Dead on man; though that charge can be leveled at all of the 'traditional' arts without built in competition (i.e. thai boxing, judo). Most commercial 'martial arts' are adult day care (when they aren't child care- where most schools make their bank) and self-esteem development for the follower and believer with a built in economic interest in perpetuating a never-tested myth of invincibility.

FWIW- 'sticking' of whatever flavor is akin to pummelling or neck-wrestling- usually taught by people who have never actually had to use the skills involved to people even further divorced from the original drill, often with phases of extremely light training (like rolling very soft) somewhere in the transmission, which have allowed them to completely loose the original mechanics and timing.

I generally find I get a better low bong sao out of a trainee quicker if I show it to them from pummelling as a way to shuck by an attempt for an underhook that comes with the elbow a little out and pressing down, driven in by the hip.

Andrew

omarthefish

07-27-2006, 11:00 PM

Yes it could be leveled at most any school without a competition circuit but I think it plays out worse in many WC schools because there tends to be a stronger "party line". I've never seen that kind of promotion of ideas elsewhere. Granted my random assortment of schools is hardly any kind of scientific study but I put it together with the kind of verbage I see on this thread and it seems to hold.

When I was in TKD, no one was ever faulted for "boxing". If you started wrestling the teacher would tell you to knock it off but he would not explain the theoretical superiority of TKD kicks to that 'rassling stuff. He'd just say that that's not what were training here.

When I was in Kenpo (EPAK) in recognition of my previous training I was given an honorary purple belt (lowest "advanced" belt) so I could play with the "big boys" in the sparring group. Was showed a lot of ideas and suggestions were made but no one ever tried to invalidate my TKD/hopkido approach.

When I did Kali, the teacher only gave me a new set of tools to analyze and develop the skills I already had. Again, new stuff was added but we had some SERIOUS discussions about how really really good stuff like....WC, for instance, was or various other non-FMA arts.

When I did Hung Gar, we never talked about how "Hung Gar this...well in HUNG GAR....." In fact, my Shifu generally didn't even say, "I teach Hung Gar." He said, "I teach Gong Fu." When asked what kind I mostly heard him say simply "southern shaolin" and leave it at that.

In fact, the only place so far I have ever been told directly not to do stuff a certain way because "in style [x]..." or told at all as opposed to shown why what I was doing was flawed was in a Wing Chun school in Los Angeles. I remember one time we were doing some footwork drills, getting off line and all that. Well I have some background in bagua and when my partner would attack, I not only got off line but found that within the confines of the drill I could fully outflank them all the way to their 4 o'clock. (behind them) Various people kept interrupting and telling me I was "wrong" to outflank them that far. Why? Just more theory. Never got SHOWED how it was dangerous. Not at all like when I took a Sambo class and after telling me not to cross my feet like that when I asked "Why?" He said, "Take a step." I stepped across and he promptly kicked out the leg mid stride and threw me on the floor.

When my Taiji teacher insists that I not use any force and that "rooting" like that is pointless he invites me to try it both ways and even points out where I am using force and then says, "See?....right there! *bam*" I'm on the ground as he explains how he was just waiting for me to give him that point of resistance to work with. It's not theory. It's tested action.

Again, nothing intrinsic in Wing Chun about ANY of this. I know how you train and you already know this isn't aimed at you. So far I've encountered a grand total of 2, count 'em 2 WC schools that seem to have it put together right. I'm probably so wordy about it because at first I REALLY wanted to learn WC. Even today, I love the theoretical basis and view it as a close sister to my first love, Hung Gar. But hey, whatchya gonna do.

darkwater108

07-28-2006, 12:31 PM

I just wanted to throw some stuff out there. First off is the subject of Chi Sau. Way too many WC'ers forget that it is a simple developemental tool. It is not fighting or a skill. I know a lot of people out there that are really good at chi sau but could not fight there way out of a paper bag. When chi sau looses it purpose it becomes a game that WC'ers can manipulate to there own ends. Chi Sau has many holes that can be played upon. On the other hand I know people that suck at chi sau, but could hand me my ass in a fight. It's a tool and only a tool. You would not consider a carpenter to be the best just because he had the most expensive and impressive looking hammer. If you are a WC'er, don't loose focus. Don't over emphasis chi sau and do not try to perfect a drill. Being good at a drill or chi sau is not important if you can not seperate and use what you are learning when not touching hands. Maybe it is just me, but when I do a drill or anything in chi sau I always take some time to figure out how this applies outside of touching hands and try to use it. Sometimes it is something I feel can be applied and other times I feel it is not. Those that I do not feel work outside of the drill or chi sau, I think of what else it is trying to teach me. (i.e. timing, mechanics etc.)

Sticker and Omar: First Stricker, very keen observation. I have not heard it put better. Wing Chun has become the Tai Bo of kung fu. Way to many people with a poor understanding of what it is, how to use it and are quick to put down anything that contradicts what there sifu told them. A lot of "sifu said" people proliferate Wing Chun because they believe that there sifu wouldnt lie. Never question, never research only spout the party line. Perhaps some misguided notion that they need to keep the WC traditional system alive or preserve some dead mans version of Wing Chun. (Wow, that sounded like Ernie) Wing Chun is a set of ideas, not techniques. When you start adding dogma to it, it becomes does become "cultish". One story that pops into mind is of a WC man (purposely leaving out his name to stay out of the lineage thing) that was a very good fighter. He ended a fight with a knee to the head of his opponent. He was given a lot of crap from his WC brothers for finishing the fight in a non-WC fashion. In his opinion he did use Wing Chun. Although we may not technically have a knee strike, he kept to the main principle of Wing Chun. He simply took the most direct line with the closest weapon to the target. Omar, I think it is pretty crappy that when told you should not go that far behind someone you did not get an answer as to why. It may have been that they, much like my statement above, where told not to do that and never questioned why so they could not answer even if they wanted to. Just regurgetating what there "sifu said". If it was the Sifu that said that and did not give you and answere, maybe it is because the technique you were using was far too deadly and should not be practiced in class. :D If you can not question why and get an answer then you will never learn. I appreciate that when I have a question or feel like something I am doing in class in bull****, I can tell my sifu I think it is bull**** and he will give me an honsest answer or tell me I am stupid and show me why.

My point is this. Train as if you were going to fight someone and not play patty cake with them. When doing a drill or chi sau, don't just drop your hands and allow your partner to land three thousand pointless punches on you. Resist a little, make him (or her) a little afraid. Do something stupid and unexpected and see if they react. Remember that chi sau is supposed to be developeing a neurological response that does not use any thought. It should happen without you knowing it. If there is no response from your partner when you throw something weird out, then you are locked in a drill with a singular action and are not develpeing any fight response. Fights are dirty unpredictable things. When doing chi sau or a drill you should be ready soemone to hit you in the nuts, headbut you, slap you in the face, let go and move away or anything. If you can not respond to the unexpected, then expect to get you ass handed to you.

Lets see how many people will jump on me for this one. :)

sihing

07-28-2006, 03:41 PM

My point is this. Train as if you were going to fight someone and not play patty cake with them. When doing a drill or chi sau, don't just drop your hands and allow your partner to land three thousand pointless punches on you. Resist a little, make him (or her) a little afraid. Do something stupid and unexpected and see if they react. Remember that chi sau is supposed to be developeing a neurological response that does not use any thought. It should happen without you knowing it. If there is no response from your partner when you throw something weird out, then you are locked in a drill with a singular action and are not develpeing any fight response. Fights are dirty unpredictable things. When doing chi sau or a drill you should be ready soemone to hit you in the nuts, headbut you, slap you in the face, let go and move away or anything. If you can not respond to the unexpected, then expect to get you ass handed to you.

Lets see how many people will jump on me for this one. :)

I really like this part of your post Doug. As a teacher I would see this all the time, people becoming slaves to the drill or application, and the partners not paying attention enough. I always reminded them that the feeder is getting almost a much out of it as the other guy, as you can look at what is happening and see/feel the counter or at the very least make one think about a counter. Throwing in something unexpected is awesome, as it keeps people awake and in the moment.

Good Stuffs:D

James

darkwater108

07-28-2006, 04:21 PM

Thanks James.
I just see too many people (and videos) doing stuff where the partner is not training, just playing the dummy. Here are my hands now move them out of the way and hit me. Oh, wait, having you move them is too hard, let me just drop them out of the way for you. Both people should be involved. If not then you are cheating your partner and yourself. I see a lot of "look how fast he is" stuff and just think to myself, he would not be that fast if his partner would have resisted and he would be stopped if his partner just put up one hand in front of his "chain punches". Be realistic in what you are doing. A partner is just as much a part of the chi sau tool as the actions themselves. Don't let your partner or your ego cheat your training. Mentally be prepared to fight when you touch hands with someone and not just go through the motions. I don't mean you need to bust someone in the mouth every time they make a mistake...... but it helps.:) Just ask some of my training partners. It is ok to go light at first, but increase the resistance and then when you feel like you can or they are not paying attention, counter the action. Do what happens in a fight, do something stupid. Not everyone you meet knows how to fight or has some training background. Just a lot of attitude. People do stupid stuff so make it real. We are trying to train to not go force on force so what good does it do if your partner gives you no force to work with. Keep it real, question what is going on and be a good training partner by resisting. There is no such thing as a perfect technique. You will be hit no matter how good you are or the person you are fighting is. If you do not resist and get hit a little then you are not going to be prepared. I guarantee if you throw something weird out the next time you guys out there are training it will mess with your partners head and the perfect technique they thought they were doing will go out the window. It is a humbleing experiance when you thought you had something down and you get pushed out, hit in the face or in some cases hit in the nuts. I know, it has happened to me......often.:) In my case, I have had all three happen at the same time. A little present from Ernie. Hope to see you around again James. I did not get much of a chance to play with you when you were down. Life got the better of me.