Why compete?

[SanHeChuan]

Another martial artist and "friend" of mine doesn't see the value in competing. I told him that I had to compose a good answer before we continue the conversation. I'd like to get this boards input on this before we meet again.

This guy does Aikido, O-Sensei Ueshiba Morihei - The Founder of Modern Aikido taught against competition. Naturally this guy would share that sentiment. But I believe through our conversation that this guy was against competition to begin with and aikido only served to reinforce that belief.

The root of this guys problem is not weather competing can improve your MA technically, but the impact it plays on EGO. He believe competing can only serve to reinforce EGO in a negative way. So, my main argument will be about the positive effect competition can have towards dealing with EGO, up or down.

Once he can see that, a big IF, then I'd like to make an argument on how you physical improve your martial arts through challenge and competition. That's where you guys come in...What are those benefit's of competition, challenge and struggle.

I should note that I don't think it's necessary to Compete, just beneficial when done with the right attitude.

[SPJ]

Competition or sparring with rules or free hand/no rules may be an integral part of training and practice.

It can be "structured" or drilled for 2 man.

It can be non structured or free hand San Shou or Da.

It is part of a learning process.

It is a means and not an end.

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose due to skill, maneuver or just pure luck.

Both the winner and loser learn from it. Both are winners in the sense that both profit or gain from it.

In the old time, it is how you get to know each other by exchanging hands or testing each other out.

--

:)

[BruceSteveRoy]

the truth is competing can boost your ego or not. it can also destroy your ego or not. it depends on the person. i can win in a competition and walk away the same as i walked in. i can lose and have it never effect my ego. this is bc i am only competing against me. i like being judged on my forms bc it is like a concrete number to show that my techniques are firm. that i do things like stepping and power generation properly. its hard to fairly judge yourself. as for competing with fighting its still me against me. i am just testing my speed, my blocking, my ability to find angles in a pinch, my ability to strike effectively, etc. however, i have seen plenty of ppl win sparring or forms and walk away talking trash about how great they are. i have seen ppl lose fights or do poorly on forms and are so crushed they think of quitting. ppl like this, whose self opinions and opinions of their personal progress, entirely hinge on winning or losing will have the ego problems your "friend" is talking about. and maybe he is one of them. in which case maybe he is right for himself and shouldnt compete. i don't think it is fair for him to try to impose his opinion on anyone else though.
regards,
~steve

[David Jamieson]

Competition is a natural human condition. we do it socially, we do it in our families, we do it at work, we do it with our friends.

We as a species create outlets for peaceful expression of competition in things such as organized sports, individual sports, universities, schools, jobs, radio contests, you name it and there is not very many facets of being human that don't involve competition.

Now, one doesn't have to actively participate in fighting competitions any more than one has to compete in state fairs because their blueberry pie is outta this world.

we can choose to compete, or we can choose to not compete and isolate ourselves from that act. In martial arts, if you remove the competition, you often remove adequate understand of the martial art and without an outlet to test said martial art to ensure that the method is correct, then the effectiveness of the art will be lost in it as well.

competition is healthy. It is normal and it is part of our psychological make up to do so. And yep, fear is a factor as well.

[Ray Pina]

1) Why compete? ...... Why Not?

2) Regarding ego: If competition is going to negatively impact your ego it's on the assumption you win .... not so easy. If you are training on the level to seriously compete chances are you ego has been checked numerous times already.

Taking a high-and-mighty attidude against competition, which is just an activity, no different than little league, roller blading, etc., just something to do ... is this not ego.

3) Martial arts are unique. You're actually not DOING a martial art until you are engaged in combat where you are truly threatened. Everything else is just training for that. That includes sparring.

In competition where someone wins by beating you to submission, then you are truly defending yourself. Truly using your art. You are creating. What artists doesn't like to display their work? In this case, something that is fleeting, existing very shortly and then gone forever.

To me, that's beatiful. And I'm glad it's more a live today than it's been in over 30 years.

4) Or, you can just be honest with him and tell him he just feels that way because Aikido sucks and he and his teachers know they can't compete : )

[sir-elrik]

practice makes u better, competing (matches or "friendly" sparing) improves yr fighting cabality or your capability as a martial artist. It imroves yr understanding for your art and the way u perform. it shows in a very illuminating way your weak points.

Yr friend do not like to compete but he competes one way or another, he competes in a very session against fellowstudents, or with himself and his body trying to learn his art.

What he claim is valid, we all know individuals that through competion look for a way to boost thier ego, which is something natural! your friend probably isnt a very antagonistic person which is perfectly normal as well.

[Asia]

David is spot on. Competing is a natural human instinct. We are just like other animals and we compete all the time.


As far as MA goes. Competition (fighting kind not forms) is a wonderful training tool because it gets you used to alot of things that you don't get in the kwoon. You have the stress of matching up against someone you don't know and aren't accustomed to. You have the stress of performing infront of strangers. And unlike in a sparring session at your school your goal is to win so you formulate your game plan to do just that. These are things that are great for every MArtist to deal with.

And as ego goes. Competition really isn't going to effect it unless you had a bad one to begin with. The ego is YOU its what you are whether good or bad, cool or obnoxious. We all have ego.

[sir-elrik]

btw in aikido even though they would like to compete how they will do it?
or would hv end to do something like ji-jutsu or judo or would b a helarious competion where the one competitor would hv to pretend the "stupid" and deliver the attacks in order the other competitor to demolish him with the easy to execute aikido techniques.

probably the old man was clever enough !!!


p.s i like aikido very much i just find it useless against the 80% of attacks a human being can deliver

[MightyB]

I've heard that argument soooooooo many times. Truth is that competition is good. Mediocre to bad martial artists use the ego/non competition argument to be able to try to take a moral high ground position to explain why they suck soooo much. They pretend to be yoda and snub their noses at people who diligently train to excell in the martial arts. Yoda types are usually lazy, fat or pencil thin, weak in technique, but high in philosophy. They're the guys that nerdify martial arts.

O'sensei competed... he took many challenges... he was hypocrytical with his teaching. He unwittingly weakened the art that he passed on to his students. Fortunately for Aikido, Tomiki saw the fallacy of the non-competitive argument (http://www.tomiki.org/). Tomiki Aikido is the only street-effective Aikido. Why? What is different? Competition.

If you really want to be good, you have to continually seek out better martial artists to train with and compete against. You have to test yourself. This takes a truly healthy ego because everytime you step on the mat, you risk failure. It takes heart to be able to do that. It's easy to sit back in your own school with the people you always train with and talk bs. Ever notice that these types won't even spar with people in their own school unless the person they spar against is a total noob. That way they can always win, and if they don't, they'll say they let the other person win for training purposes.

Bahhh!

[Crushing Fist]

I have heard (haven't looked into it to see if its true) that Aikido was designed as an art to disarm an armed attacker. Does anyone know if this is true?


These have been some very good posts and I agree with most of what has been said.

Someone with an ego problem will have an ego problem and in competition, whether they win or lose, they will be sure to protect their fragile ego. These are the sore losers and bad winners.

Good martial training, IMO, will always serve to break down the ego, and with a good attitude, competiton can be a valuable training aid. I have found that those who cannot let go of ego often do not make it very far in training.


Art cannot exist in a vacuum.


As someone else said what would a competition between to Aikido practitioners look like? Two guys standing there staring at each other, since Aikido never attacks and always responds.


and finally

completely OT...


San He Chuan

not sure why I never asked before, but where did you get your Screen Name?

just curious, because I have a form of that name myself.

[MightyB]

www.tomiki.org

" What is more, it constantly forces the player to deal with a poor mind set. For the temptation is always there in a tournament--as it is in life--to be fixated upon winning, upon the ego, upon petty and worthless thoughts. As one plays more and more Randori and Shiai, however, one learns to reject these illusions, to become one with the moment, and to enjoy and experience true Aiki.

For having given us such a good mechanism for facing down the ego and learning--indeed living--the Spirit of Aikido, Tomiki Sensei deserves the highest praise.

--Sean Flynn, Berkeley Tomiki Aikido"

Aikido Randori Kyogi Contest Rules

1. Individual Tournament
(1) A match consists of a contest between registered competitors.
(2) Duration: the contest is divided into two halves of one and one half minute each; a tanto is exchanged at half-time.
(3) Judgment of Toshu techniques. The following three types of Toshu techniques are effective:

Type 1. Ippon

Atemi waza: When the competitor throws his opponent cleanly to the mat on his back or side, using an atemi technique.
Kansetsuwaza : When the competitor breaks his opponent's balance and maintains this hold completely.
Ukiwaza: When the competitor throws his opponent cleanly using one of the 'floating' techniques.

Type 2. Wazaari: When the competitor applies a technique which is almost an ippon.

Type 3. Yuko: When the competitor applies a technique which is almost a wazaari.

(4) Judgment of tsuki techniques and kaeshiwaza When Tanto strikes his opponent within the target area he will get tsukiari. Tanto can score points by using kaeshiwaza when he is grasped by Toshu. The judgments of kaeshiwaza are the same as those of Toshu techniques.
(5) The points scored are of three types:

Toshu points: without a tanto

Tanto points: with a tanto

Foul points : awarded against fouls

The points are counted as follows:

Toshu/Kaeshiwaza Ippon: 4 points

Toshu/Kaeshiwaza Wazaari: 2 points

Toshu/Kaeshiwaza Yuko: 1 point

Tanto Tsukiari: 1 point

Chui: 1 point (awarded to the other competitor)

Shido: 0 point (but 2 Shido equal 1 point)

In the case of Hansoku Make, or defeat by foul points, 8 points will be awarded to the other competitor.

[MightyB]

(6) Issue of Contest

The competitor scoring the highest number of points during both halves of the match is declared the winner. When both competitors score the same number of points, the issue will be decided in the following way:
1. The number of Toshu/Kaeshiwaza Ippon
2. The number of Toshu/Kaeshiwaza Wazaari
3. The number of Toshu/Kaeshiwaza Yuko
4. The number of Tsukiari

Still in the case of an equal score, the issue will be decided according to superiority (Kinsa) in the following way:

1. The number of near Yuko techniques
2. The number of Shido
3. General skill of techniques, attitude, etc.

However, in the finals, if a decision without using Kinsa cannot be reached within the regular match time period, one extension of the match is permitted. The time for this extended match is one minute in each half, and the winner must be declared according to one of the above mentioned judgments, including Kinsa.

(7) When a contest cannot be continued due to Itami Wake, or draw by injury, the judge gives the right of play to the competitor able to continue. If both competitors are injured and unable to continue, the opponent in the next match is the winner by Fusen Kachi, or victory without fighting.
(8) When a competitor who has won a match by Hansoku Machi, or victory by foul points, is unable to continue due to injury, the opponent in the next match is the winner by Fusen Kachi, or the victory without fighting. The loser by Hansoku Make making his opponent injured is not allowed to take part in any competitions of the tournament concerned.
(9) When the margin score between the competitors reaches 8 points, the first half is over. When the total margin score between them reaches 12 points, the match is over.

2. Team Tournament
(1) A match consists of a contest between registered teems.
(2) Duration: First half 1 minute 30 seconds. Second half 1 minute 30 seconds
(3) Judgment of Toshu techniques is the same as in an individual tournament, as described above.
(4) Judgment of Tsuki techniques is the same as in an individual tournament, as described above.
(5) The points scored are the same as in an individual tournament, as described above.
(6) Issue of Contest

The match is played by five members of each team.

In each of the five matches, the competitor scoring the highest number of points during both halves is declared the winner.

When both competitors score the same number of points, the issue will be decided the same way as in an individual tournament, as described above.

When a decision cannot be reached, neither superiority victory or an extension of the match is allowed, and the match is declared a tie.

The points are counted as follows according to each type of decision, regardless of the number of points actually scored by either competitor. The points awarded as follows, with the Winner's points given first.

Itami Wake ( Draw due to injury): 0-0

Hansoku Machi (Victory by foul points ): 8-0

Fusen Kachi (Victory without fighting ): 8-0

In the case of Itami wake, the injured competitor is not allowed to continue in the competition, even if he recovers later. He can be replaced by a competitor registered beforehand.

The team having the most winners in five matches is declared the winner.

If both teams have an equal number of winners, victory is decided as follows:

1. The team with the most points wins.
2 If the number of points is equal, the issue will be decided the same as in an individual tournament.
3. If a decision cannot be reached according to the preceding clause, one representative from the five competitors of each team plays a match. In this case the time for each half is one minute thirty seconds. Superiority victory is allowed but an extended match is not permitted.

3. Judges

(1) There are one judge and two referees present, and each of them has the same right to judge victory, defeat, techniques, or fouls, etc. However, when a mutual decision cannot be reached, the judge decides the issue.
(2) When the judge and referees doubt one another's decision, they have a meeting to come to a conclusion.
(3) The decision of the judge and referees is final and no one is allowed to protest it.

4. Notice

(1) When the competitors make a prohibited action, the judgment is as follows:

Shido: 0 points Chui: 1 point (=2 Shido) Foul equal to Wazaari: 2 points Foul equal to Ippon: 4 points Hansoku Make: 8 points Foul points are given to the opponent of the competitor who commits the foul.

(2) Judgment of Tsukiari

When the judge decides Tsukiari has been scored, he raises his hand with his palm toward the competitor.

When Tanto strikes, he must be in good posture with his back straight and with his hips stable, and the tanto itself must be approximately at 90 degrees to the target area at the moment of impact. He does not always have to strike from the optimal attack distance at the outer edge of his opponent's defense zone (i.e. one step/thrust from Toshu); tanto attacks from nearer are permitted. The Tsukiari target area is the front, side, and back of the body between the armpit line and the belt. When Toshu covers the Tsukiari target area with his arms and does not defend with his Tegatana, Tanto can still get Tsukiari by striking on the target area.

When a Toshu technique and a Tanto Tsukiari technique are applied at the same time, Toshu can score a point.

When Toshu falls down, Tanto can get Tsukiari if he strikes the target area immediately with the first action.

(3) Prevention of Injury

When either competitor applies techniques in a dangerous position, the judge must break off the match by saying "Matte".

When either competitor is given Shido or Chui repeatedly, but still continues a dangerous action that may lead to injury, the judge declares him Hansoku Make, and he loses the match.

When the competitors are injured, the judge should not decide Itami Wake easily, but he and the referees should have a meeting and search for a reason for a better decision.

The judge must pay attention to the method of Tanto's attack, and the area at which the attacks are aimed, in order to prevent injury. Violent thrusts must be warned against severely.

5. Prohibitions

The following actions are prohibited:

1. The use of techniques other than 17 techniques (Randori no Kata).
2. The use of techniques in a desperate way.
3. The use of Kaeshiwaza before being grasped.
4. When a competitor continues to apply force after the technique has been effective.
5. If a competitor uses a technique in a position which makes it difficult for his opponent to do ukemi.
6. If a competitor tries to seize the other competitor's dogi.
7. If Toshu tries to get near Tanto blindly without correct Taisabaki.
8. If when using Atemi Waza or Tsuki Waza a competitor tries techniques of impact intentionally.
9. If Tanto defends himself from Toshu's attack by means other than than Tegatana. However, even when Tanto uses Tegatana, he must not use it in a dangerous way, such as in the face or on the head, etc.
1O. When Tanto drops the knife during the match.
11. If a competitor deliberately tries to go outside the competition area.
12. If a competitor makes meaningless sounds or tries to make his opponent look foolish by taunting him.

Notes concerning techniques

1. Tanto can use either hand to perform Kaeshiwaza. When Toshu grasps Tanto's hand holding a knife, Tanto can use either hand to perform Kaeshiwaza. However when Toshu grasps the other hand, which does not hold a knife, Tanto can apply Kaeshiwaza only with the grasped hand, i.e. in this case Tanto is not allowed to use the hand holding a knife as Kaeshiwaza.
2. Kaeshiwaza can be applied only on the condition that Tanto's arm (hand, elbow) is grasped by Toshu with fingers, i.e. Kaeshiwaza is not permitted before Toshu touches Tanto's arm. In the event that Toshu lets go of Tanto's arm at the moment Tanto applies Kaeshiwaza, the techniques are considered to be effective.
3. Any sacrifice techniques are not permitted.
4. In the case of Gedan-ate, a competitor is not permitted to hold up the opponent using a hand and fingers. He must throw the opponent down either by twisting or foot movement.
5. Any techniques other than 17 techniques (randori no kata) are not permitted.
6. In the case or Shomen-ate, the competitor's subsidiary hand must not be under his opponent's hip. The competitor must not hold up his opponent's leg.
7. When a competitor defends himself, he is not allowed to hold an opponent, to put Tegatana into an opponent's armpit, or to bend down on the mats.
8. Hanza Handachi (kneeling posture with one knee down) is effective. However two knees are not permitted to be put down at the same time.
9. If a competitor goes outside the competition area, he or she will be given "Shido."
10. In the case that the tanto thrust is not good enough for Tsukiari (1 point) but effective (nearly Tsukiari ), Toshu is given "Shido" as "Taisabaki Shido."

[BruceSteveRoy]

i was going to make the aikido staring at each other comment earlier. i studied kokikai aikido for about 4 years (maybe a little longer). its a neat style. i still believe there are more direct ways to accomplish the same result. but i won't knock what it is trying to do. it was funny bc i was at a CLF seminar that grandmaster fred spencer was doing like a year ago and he demonstrated a few techniques that with minimal effort threw a couple guys. it looked like aikido without all the extra steps and unnecessary motions.

as for disarming opponents; one of the assumptions we were always taught was that the opponent always had a weapon. and i have heard from my old sensei that the style was originally for defending against weapons. and when we used to train we would very often train using the wooden knives (tanto?) or the wooden daito.

what is the connection between CMA and aikido (if there is one)? is it descended from taichi? or is it a thing unto itself?

[SevenStar]

The root of this guys problem is not weather competing can improve your MA technically, but the impact it plays on EGO. He believe competing can only serve to reinforce EGO in a negative way. So, my main argument will be about the positive effect competition can have towards dealing with EGO, up or down.

most people who don't compete think it's all about an ego boost. If that's the case, what happens when you lose? your ego can't possibly boosted then; it gets knocked down a notch. competition is a way of instilling humbleness in someone. It teaches you that no matter how many people you have beaten, there is still someone out there who is better than you are. Competition actually keeps the ego in check.



Once he can see that, a big IF, then I'd like to make an argument on how you physical improve your martial arts through challenge and competition. That's where you guys come in...What are those benefit's of competition, challenge and struggle.

in a word? evolution.

when you are training for a competition (and this is talking full contact stuff - I never changed my training for pount tournies) you have to train hard - you have to make yourself better than you presently are - because there is another out there who is doing the same in order to beat you. When you are training for a fight, there is no time for slacking off, it's perpetually balls to the wall during training. This not only (obviously) improves you physically, but mentally, it brings focus into your training - you are setting yourself on a goal.

Another benefit is the opportunity to test yourself and how well you can apply what you have learned. It's one thing to perform judo and aikido techniques with a cooperative uke in your own dojo. It's quite another to do it on someone who doesn't want to be thrown. You can argue that someone who only trains cooperatively doesn't really know what it's like to try his technique against resistance, and therefore may not be able to make it work when he's in an altercation.

[SevenStar]

i was going to make the aikido staring at each other comment earlier. i studied kokikai aikido for about 4 years (maybe a little longer). its a neat style. i still believe there are more direct ways to accomplish the same result. but i won't knock what it is trying to do. it was funny bc i was at a CLF seminar that grandmaster fred spencer was doing like a year ago and he demonstrated a few techniques that with minimal effort threw a couple guys. it looked like aikido without all the extra steps and unnecessary motions.

as for disarming opponents; one of the assumptions we were always taught was that the opponent always had a weapon. and i have heard from my old sensei that the style was originally for defending against weapons. and when we used to train we would very often train using the wooden knives (tanto?) or the wooden daito.

what is the connection between CMA and aikido (if there is one)? is it descended from taichi? or is it a thing unto itself?


It's a descendant of daito ryu akikjutsu. there is no verifiable connection between daito ryu and cma.

[Shaolindynasty]

He believe competing can only serve to reinforce EGO in a negative way

Sevenstar beat me to it. I have noticed that people who don't compete tend to have larger egos than those who do. Competeing exposes mistakes and weakness in your game which serve to make you more humble because you realise that you have more work to do. Guys who never compete especially instructors tend to have a superiority complex believeing they are way more effective than they are. Why shouldn't they? They have never been proven wrong:D

I believe people don't compete in order to protect their ego.


Other good points about competition is the motivation to train harder for an upcomming event. They also get you used to applying techniques under mental pressures.

[SanHeChuan]

I think I might print out this thread to present to him when we are done. I have to be careful though to not, tell him he's wrong, or other wise insult or threaten him. If I put him on the defensive he'll be less willing to listen.


the truth is competing can boost your ego or not. it can also destroy your ego or not. it depends on the person. i can win in a competition and walk away the same as i walked in. i can lose and have it never effect my ego. this is bc i am only competing against me. i like being judged on my forms bc it is like a concrete number to show that my techniques are firm. that i do things like stepping and power generation properly. its hard to fairly judge yourself. as for competing with fighting its still me against me. i am just testing my speed, my blocking, my ability to find angles in a pinch, my ability to strike effectively, etc. however, i have seen plenty of ppl win sparring or forms and walk away talking trash about how great they are. i have seen ppl lose fights or do poorly on forms and are so crushed they think of quitting. ppl like this, whose self opinions and opinions of their personal progress, entirely hinge on winning or losing will have the ego problems your "friend" is talking about. and maybe he is one of them. in which case maybe he is right for himself and shouldnt compete. i don't think it is fair for him to try to impose his opinion on anyone else though.
regards,
~steve (BruceSteveRoy)

This statement exactly mirrors my own sentiments on the subject. Thank you for posting it as it not only saves me the trouble, but confirms that I am not the only sane person left in the world. ;) :D


Competition is a natural human condition. we do it socially, we do it in our families, we do it at work, we do it with our friends. - David Jamieson

I don't feel that this particular argument would work with this guy. Intellectual and philosophical types tend to think that we must raise our selves above our base animal instincts, and that is what it means to be enlightened, etc.


www.tomiki.org

" What is more, it constantly forces the player to deal with a poor mind set. For the temptation is always there in a tournament--as it is in life--to be fixated upon winning, upon the ego, upon petty and worthless thoughts. As one plays more and more Randori and Shiai, however, one learns to reject these illusions, to become one with the moment, and to enjoy and experience true Aiki. - MightyB

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to pass it along.

====


Both the winner and loser learn from it. Both are winners in the sense that both profit or gain from it. - SPJ

it shows in a very illuminating way your weak points.
- sir-elrik

You have the stress of matching up against someone you don't know and aren't accustomed to. You have the stress of performing infront of strangers. And unlike in a sparring session at your school your goal is to win so you formulate your game plan to do just that.
- Asia

If you really want to be good, you have to continually seek out better martial artists to train with and compete against. You have to test yourself. This takes a truly healthy ego because everytime you step on the mat, you risk failure. It takes heart to be able to do that. It's easy to sit back in your own school with the people you always train with and talk bs. - MightyB

Someone with an ego problem will have an ego problem and in competition, whether they win or lose, they will be sure to protect their fragile ego. These are the sore losers and bad winners.

Good martial training, IMO, will always serve to break down the ego, and with a good attitude, competiton can be a valuable training aid.
- Crushing Fist

It teaches you that no matter how many people you have beaten, there is still someone out there who is better than you are. Competition actually keeps the ego in check.

Another benefit is the opportunity to test yourself and how well you can apply what you have learned. It's one thing to perform judo and aikido techniques with a cooperative uke in your own dojo. It's quite another to do it on someone who doesn't want to be thrown. You can argue that someone who only trains cooperatively doesn't really know what it's like to try his technique against resistance, and therefore may not be able to make it work when he's in an altercation. - Seven Star

All very good points

I think it will be a hard sell to convince him that competition would be beneficial beyond character development, which I believe we have covered pretty well.

Saying it will improve your game is one thing, and something I think we all are of like mind.

What are some specific characteristic It will build in your game that you can't get else where? Timing, distance, I don't know...

[Shaolindynasty]

What are some specific characteristic It will build in your game that you can't get else where? Timing, distance, I don't know...

I think one of the biggest is the ability to adapt to the unknown(fighting comp). You'll go up against various opponents of different styles and will have to adapt your technique to them. The benifits of competition are more mental than physical.

[MightyB]

at least in Judo Shiai...

I find that the more I compete, the more relaxed and therefore faster I get. I'm faster, more relaxed, better able to adapt to unpredictable situations, more motivated to train harder (weight lifting, drills, running and cardio, stability ball, etc.), more confident (even with my kungfu technique) and I'm becomming more comfortable in different sparring situations because I practice harder and "have been there done that a couple of hundred times" in hard training.

[The Willow Sword]

O'Sensei Ueshiba Morihei Is by far my favorite martial artist and philosopher in the martial realm. What you people need to understand about why Sensei Morihei was against competing and going out to look for the fight, you have to look at his Background and where he came from. he comes from a very disciplined family and and even more disciplined system of JMA. He was also a soldier in his younger days and saw combat first hand, he killed people, people tried to kill him(which is the nature of War and violence). He was also a Rogue Mercenary in northwest china for a while. He went through things in his life that most of us cannot relate to with exception of our military friends here who have actually been in fierce combat for their life. I think that is really WHY he deplored such frivolous acts. He saw it as a waste of ones energy. He NEVER implied that one should not train or spar with in the scope of his own system or school. But to compete for a trophy, for status, or to test ones self against an adversary in those controlled situations, was frivolous to HIM because he had tested himself not of his own drive or EGO to do so, but because he was a soldier and fighting for his life.
He then had his "moment" of enlightenment and began the next phase of his journey in this life to create a peaceful yet effective way of defending onesself. There are two aspects of his system, there is the KI-Aikido Which is primarily an internal system based on movements much like that of bagua. The external portion of his system is rooted in the jui juitsu or Aiki-juitsu.

The problem that most other martial artists have with Aikido is that it focuses on other aspects of the marital realm other than being the aggressor, now we can debate the subject of" a good defense is a effective offense" until we are blue in the face. but the fact of aikido and its nature still remains. it is a system and a way or Tao of life born out of that violence and ego.and it seeks to be peaceful and nonviolent(doesnt mean one cannot fight, it just means one chooses not to unless they absolutely have to, when all other avenues have been blocked off and you are cornered).
Not everybody shares this ideal of competition, yes it is in our nature to be competitive, it is also in our nature to brutally murder someone, should we just justify and leave it as that? I think not. yes training makes you stronger, sparring within the realm of your school trains your ability to defend yourself.
All competition really is, is an ego based facet of the human condition and serves only the purpose of satisfying and validating ones ego.
You might think that this is a high and mighty attitude, but quite the contrary. Ueshiba taught not to "attract" the violence to you. but yet we strive to find it everywhere we turn(as martial artists). WHY? to make ones self feel validated and confident that you could successfully defend yourself? See thats Ego and from the philosophies of poets and leaders and such it has been said that the ego is the destruction of the human spirit.
The truth is fellas is that you are never going to really truly KNOW whether or not you will be successful in a fight situation. just because you win ONE fight either on the street or in a tournament doesnt mean that you are truly able to defend yourself. each situation is different and you must be prepared that you may lose or even lose your life. That is why the samurai were so fierce in battle, they shed that ego mindset and directed their energy accordingly to the situation.
the rest of us are in a state of "play" and "pretend" and "theorizing".
are tournaments bad? NO. i think it is good to come together in a setting and demonstrate our arts in a community setting, come to an understanding and be respectful and harmonize with our fellow martial arts community. But then , in my opinion it all gets dashed on the rocks and you defeat the purpose of your own art by wanting to get up in front of someone to see if you can kick their a$$, so that you can feel validated that you are the best or that you can "do it well".
i think that when you can get past the fighting mentality and train in your art and be truly disciplined within it and NOT seek out the combat, and if and when the combat ever crosses your path by circumstances, you will be ready and will be able to defend yourself.
This is why i disagree with the UFC and all those events. I dont discount tournaments where people get together to share forms and learn from each other, but i say get rid of the trophies and get rid of the fighting competitions, keep it to demonstrations and learning from one another.

oh and another thing, someone mentioned the "yoda" perspective and that those people are weak and the only reason why they say what they say is because they suck and cant fight? wellif they really feel that way then they have triumphed in a way that all you guys who are brutalizers have failed. These yoda types KNOW that they would die or get seriously hurt if they tried to compete in these events, so they avoid it. they have fulfilled the first rule in most martial arts and that is to avoid the fighting as much as possible. it gives them more time to train and to hone whatever skills they need to hone within themselves. they arent weak, in fact they have bigger hearts than those who would stand in front of another person and wish to hurt them so that they can feel validated within themselves.

there that's my say on the matter,,,TWS

[Ray Pina]

I've thought about all those things and came to the conclusion it's foolish to think that much about it.

Actually, I think one puts their ego aside before going into combact in a very true sense. You can't be thinking about how nice your nose is and how bad you'll look with it busted sideways and two black eyes. You can't worry about your hair.... you can't worry about if its right or wrong. You just do it because you're compelled to do it. If you are trained, it's no worse than playing chess. Somone will win, someone will lose.

In chess, you lose your pieces. In competition, you lose some sweat and blood. Pieces, blood... all just atoms.

As far as Aikido, I do not know how effective it was then.... but perhaps this splitting of the style, this thing to make it something less, something more peaceful, may be directly related to why finding practioners that are capable of what the founder was doing is rare..... they haven't undergone his original training.

There is a Japanase saying: nangyodo.... it means The Way of Hardship. You can't hipp trippy your way into martial proficiency. You must tangle with somebody. And again, martial arts only comes alive through the creation of offensive and defensive moment in physical, threatening conflict. Just like surfing only comes a live when man, board and wave join together ...... everything else is standing on the beach, paddling out or whiping out.

[SevenStar]

I've thought about all those things and came to the conclusion it's foolish to think that much about it.

Actually, I think one puts their ego aside before going into combact in a very true sense. You can't be thinking about how nice your nose is and how bad you'll look with it busted sideways and two black eyes. You can't worry about your hair.... you can't worry about if its right or wrong. You just do it because you're compelled to do it. If you are trained, it's no worse than playing chess. Somone will win, someone will lose.

dunno - there may be a difference between narcissism and ego. When you spar or do forms either. However, I do know people who have told me while they were fighting they thought about the possibility of them losing.

[SanHeChuan]

San He Chuan

not sure why I never asked before, but where did you get your Screen Name?

just curious, because I have a form of that name myself.

Crushing Fist,

I got it from the usual place. It is what you think it is. It says so in my profile.

San He Chuan - San Njie - Three Method Fist - The Iron Man

;)

[SanHeChuan]

You can only teach someone who's ready to learn. How do you know when they are ready? 1) They ask 2) You teach them as see if they get it. Either way they probably won't get it right away, but you have planted the seeds of knowledge which will bloom when they are ready.


"Resist the impulse to hate those who attack you. Thank them for their attempt, for with each of their challenges you grow stronger. By challenging you, they give you the means of self-evaluation. Instead love them for strengthening you." (Paraphrased from the Movie Invincible 2001)
Isn't that part of the Buddhist, Hippy, love-everybody philosophy.
Those you compete with are not opponents to be conquered, They are the means through which we test our selves.

You don't HAVE to compete in a formal event, But...
Running away from competition to avoid loss is just the opposite extreme of Embracing it as means to artificially lift your self above others. What does the martial arts teach us about extremes?

The way most tournaments are organized, with trophies, etc., is at least in principle to reward those who are most diligent in their practice. There by encouraging students to study harder and improve the martial arts as a whole. However this system is often abused to feed ego.

As instructors it is our job to see and pass on to our students through example the positive, and possibly reform our own circle if not the whole of martial arts.

There are many positives that can be gained through competition when viewed in the right light.


Character development
Humility - If you compete against a large enough pool of peers, your bound to lose, a lot. Through the process of loosing you learn to cope with those blows to the EGO. You learn that their is always someone better than you, so you can never stop training.
Respect - Win or loose, If your competing against your peers, the margin for victory is likely to be small. You learn to respect those whom you compete against, even people you normally wouldn't, like Tae Kwon do guys. ;)
Taming the tiger (EGO) - You learn that competing is not at all about wining or loosing but the knowledge you gain through the process. The trophies don't mean anything, so it doesn't matter what the judges think. Judging is all subjective anyway.


Grace under Pressure
Stress management - Adrenalin rush is a natural uncontrollable occurrence in real life confrontation. Competition induces a similar reaction in a controlled environment where we can learn to deal with that stress.
Application against resistance - You learn to apply some techniques against someone who is actively trying to resist you.
Beyond the Technique - These are principles that can only be learned correctly through application against a resisting opponent in a live unscripted environment?
Strategy
Reading intentions
Deception
Timing
Rhythm
Distance
Use of angles
...


I feel like I'm missing something, I knew I should have been writing while my mind was racing a mile a minute.:mad:

[SanHeChuan]

Intelligence Gathering

Competition in a tournament allows your to experience the means and methods of other styles. This broadens your overall understanding of the Martial arts, and allows you to develop effective counters to their techniques. Not every one will fight like you, so training your self to defend against some one you moves and thinks like you is an exercise in futility.

[David Jamieson]

Many people become confused about reality or barred from experiencing it because of teh restrictions placed on themselves by their family, by their culture and by themselves.

If one was to be a purist about it, the the whole restrain yourselves et al is a manifestation of inhibition of teh natural condition.

It is unnatural to not compete. It is unnatural to spend time developing something that will never be used because you will restrict yourself from using it.

In short, there is no shortage of utter nonsense in martial philosophy and some of the greatest gems of ignorance will fall with the same gems of wisdom.

lol, that's what happens when you give a soldiers way to people who over intellectualize. They simply can't relate because they lack experience. THis is the downfall of not competing.

p.s, you, me and teh buddha will never escape ego. we simply cannot and when we do, we will no longer be part of this reality ergo, the idea of having no ego has no place in real existance. That's for when you are dead and there really is no self anymore. :p