Shaolin/Lineage help

[Ray Pina]

Doing some research and requesting help from several sources.

Does anyone have, or know someone who has, credible lineage tracing back directly to the Shaolin Temple.

I know of wide-spread histories of styles like S Mantis and even Bak Mei that tell of a monk who studied the movement of the animal or left after burning the temple down and passed it to so on and so forth .... I'm looking for factual lineages of the like of Japanese Ryu who can trace their lineages back (I believe the ****hest is over 2,000 years) because Japan had very strict and accurate surverys taken every year.

When one was born they had to register and do so every year. Each Ryu was associated with a clan, Dyomo or a temple.

Any help would be apreciated.

[David Jamieson]

Unfortunately, histories and such over time ahve been blurred substantially by war, politics, redactions, outright lies and the habit of people to make legends out of ordinary men.

My advice is to look at historical literature and completely don't bother with teh martial arts history kind of stuff. Martial historians are for the most part quite sketchy and almost always biased. To much margin for myths and not enough truths coming from that sector. Not saying all, just five nines worth of it is utter nonsense.

Modern shaolin lineage for the most part are unrelated to pre-1928 shaolin lineages.

To find japanese writings where credit is given to chinese monks is gonna be a real stretch.

Ultimately, find that most of this aspect of martial arts isn't really worth pursuing. Mainly cause a lot of it is completely fabricated or so altered as to take away from whatever small truth may exist in it.

good luck though.

[Ray Pina]

I know research for Japanese ryu is actually quite easy. All the land was ruled by a particular daimyo and one could not travel freely without permission and documents. One had to pay taxes and declare a trade and materials bought for the trade.

All of this was recorded and available. That's why it's hard to pass off false lineage on Japanese systems.

Did China have something like this?

[David Jamieson]

There are historical documents available still that outline for instance the passage and transmission of zen buddhism from India to China and onwards to Japan. In these texts you find hints about real shaolin goings on as an aside.

Most of the martial traditions in CMA are orally transmitted from teacher to student with few other ways of doing the same. Yep, there were some texts and of course there are lineage charts that go back quite some time.

I don't think the Chinese were as rigorous at cataloging and categorizing their styles and such except in a pretty broad sense.

This seems to be a much more modern thing and state of mind about it all.

[mantis108]

Doing some research and requesting help from several sources.

Does anyone have, or know someone who has, credible lineage tracing back directly to the Shaolin Temple.

I know of wide-spread histories of styles like S Mantis and even Bak Mei that tell of a monk who studied the movement of the animal or left after burning the temple down and passed it to so on and so forth .... I'm looking for factual lineages of the like of Japanese Ryu who can trace their lineages back (I believe the ****hest is over 2,000 years) because Japan had very strict and accurate surverys taken every year.

When one was born they had to register and do so every year. Each Ryu was associated with a clan, Dyomo or a temple.

Any help would be apreciated.

There are some accounts based on unofficial researches that went on about the Southern Shaolin lore. It's definitely a vastly different picture then we are normally fed. These accounts are a lot more complicated and showed a delicate situation and relationship that's developed amongst the rebel forces mostly connected to Fujian Province where the Southern Shaolin temple is said to be located.

By all accounts, secret society Hong Men is considered pivotal in the tales of Southern Shaolin lore. It is believed that the five elders of Hong Men were properly factual people and the location, Gao Xi temple, where they took the oath is also factual. The Monk in charged of the temple belonged to an order of monks, known as Xiang Hua (aromatic flowers) , which is another obscured monk order in the Fujian area. This monk is said to have connections to a temple in Chuan Zhou County, where the Dong Ch'an Si also nick named Southern Shaolin temple is found. He also became a Hong Men member in the capacity of strategist. The Hong Men was fighting along side with the Ming loyalists, headed by the Cheng family, relocated to Taiwan in the beginning. In fact when the leader of the Hong Men was killed in a battle, his plague was placed in the worship hall in the Ming loyalist palace. But it was later removed because of rumors that he didn't die an honor death on the battle field. This caused a rift between the Hong Men and the Ming loyalists. Some of the higher ups of Hong Men surrendered to the Qing imperial court and turned their spear heads towards the Ming loyalists in Taiwan to avenge the insult. But as the Qing got the Ming loyalists under control. They also got rid of the Hong Men people by executing 2 of the high ranking collaborators. This caused the Hong Men to ally themselves with the Ming loyalists (what's left of it) again.

This rather detailed account according to the mainland researchers of the Hong Men saga explains alot of the discrepancies in the written records of Hong Men organization. How could one clearly account for all the twists and turns of rebellion politics without coming out as the bad guy (at least in perception)? It also harmonized alot of the different lores out there. There was not an actual Southern Shaolin temple per se. Rather it was the Dong Cha'n temple (said to be where descendents of Song imperial court where teaching their family art - Taizu Changquan there) that carries the reputation of "Southern Shaolin temple".

So the Shaolin lores may not be entirely fabricated but they are not exactly accurate per se. So.. much caveat is needed when doing a lineage research on anything southern shaolin.

Just some thoughts.

Mantis108

[mawali]

To my knowledge, there is no official scroll to go backtrack this lineage.
One of teacher's is stated to be 29th generation Shaolin Temple but I take it with a grain of salt because in the end it is what you can do or don't do that is the deciding factor.

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Ray,

Here are some thoughts that might be of use to you.

Generally there seems to be a great confusion between, Shaolin martial arts lineages, monastic "dharma transmission", and "tonsure".

The idea of lineage is generally not understood very well. In Chinese Buddhism – tonsure (chin.: ti du 剃 度 ), that is the master-disciple relationship - entailed no vows and was clearly distinguished from ordination. In other words ordination usually came years later. Through tonsure a monk entered a "family". The tonsure family was a private structure so to speak within the public body of the sangha (congregation of monks and nuns).

Lay Shaolin traditions, lineage norms – the special relationship between master and disciple – came from Buddhist traditions followed by the monastic sangha (congregation of monks and nuns). As with a tonsured monk, the student entered a family, the head of which was his father/master (Shifu) or his grandfather/master (shi gong). The rest of the family, including members of various generations, were called older-brother-masters, nephew-disciples ,” etc.

Dharma transmission (chin.: chuan fa 傳 法 ) is a complicated affair. Basically "to transmit the dharma" means to transmit an understanding of the truth. In this regard, instead of acknowledging only one disciple, Chan masters began to transmit the dharma to several disciples. This often created situations where the lineage fanned out so that it became unwieldy and it was not clear who was senior. Because of this many sub-sects arose within Chan. Multiple transmission was a practice adopted by some lay Shaolin lineages and in some cases quotas were assigned. In more recent history the custom arose of giving a written attestation, called a "dharma scroll" (chin.: fa juan 法卷), to disciples. In many of these cases monks were actually not given these but made their own copies. Typically these scrolls began with a story of Buddha then continued with the founder of the sub sect followed by a list of every master. Each name was assigned a generation number. The scroll was used as proof of orthodoxy. In effect what was being transmitted was the authority to teach. Transmission of the dharma as a seal of office was the practice at most Chinese monasteries. However it should be pointed out that dharma was often transmitted from monk to monk without any reference to abbot-ship of a monastery but simply as a private transmission.

What further complicated records was secrecy. This kind of secrecy surrounded not only martial arts but also Buddhist meditation practices. “Do not pass to anyone outside the temple the religion and the teachings.” Historical records also show that there was official (government) disapproval of Shaolin monks teaching martial arts to outsiders. This in effect created a situation were the names of monk masters were kept secret or simply not divulged. However, at lest since the Ming Dynasty historical records suggest that Shaolin martial arts were passed on mainly through monks and their lay followers most of whom kept very poor if any records. In many cases because of the all to common tumultuous times these were lost or destroyed. Most were left to relied on oral transmission, master to disciple. Even in cases, where the equivalent of 'dharma names' (chin.: fa ming 法名) was used to keep track of generational seniority and ancestry, these have been forgotten or were not rigorously used (a common problem with many Buddhist lineages as well). Be that as it may, most if not all, Shaolin martial art methods practiced today, including that which is practice today at Shaolin, survived because of lay Buddhist practitioners and lay lineages.


kind regards
r.