Wudang Tai Chi

[dre_doggX]

can anyone tell me anything about wudang tai chi chaun and San Zen Feng. it read that he was a taoist monk who went to shaolin for a while when he came back to Wudang temple he made what he learned basing it on wudang or daoist theories into tai chi chuan but latter one of his disiplies met Chen Wan Ting at Chen Village when he was making Tai chi. I know that Chen Wan Ting after he retired took liking to Taosim, so do you think that its true a disiple of San Zen Feng taught out he knew to Chen Wan Ting. I do know for certian however that Chen Wan Tings kungfu(tai chi) would of been "slow" even if he had never met the Wudang Disiple, because we was trying to making a qigong

Andre Lashley

[MaFuYee]

i hate to be the one to break it to you, but, CZF is about as real as santa claus... and there is no budhist nun wu mui, nor a yim wing chun.

* and there is a lot of speculation that there was no dat mo.

it is just very popular in chinese culture to attribute the origins of a system to legendary/mythical figures.

believe me, or don't. - i'm not going to argue.
but, i suggest you do some more research into the matter, and come to your own conclusion.

Only in America do we have drive up ATM's with braile on them.

[Tsui]

Andre, despite the other gentleman's post, you are very much correct.. at least as correct as we can be with something that happened that long ago. As I said in another section of this forum, this is one area of history our Sifu didn't tell us to take with a grain of salt. There is documentation of Chang Sang Feng creating an internal meditation to give a physical structure to the Iching, he went to Shaolin because they had a long tradition of meditation in movement. The Chen's took what they learned from Wudang and combined it with prexisting fighting styles to become thier family Kung Fu. Also, the movements of the several forms that Chang Sang Feng created came from Shaolin and from various dance and exercise routines that had already existed, there is old references to "the great dance" it is belived this was inspiration.
As to the veracity of my statements? My Sifu is the 12 successor of a line back to the 1500's, the founder learned at Shaolin and elsewhere. As a soldier, he had an awakening when he saw the distruction he had done and founded the Lamm Loong Pac (way of the blue dragon) as a vehicle to SAVE the knowledge that was being lost.

[Brad]

Tsui,

What documentation do you have? Everyone expects everyone to believe them based on the fact that "teacher said so". There are just way to many claims floating around out there that cannot be verified in any way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As I said in another section of this forum, this is one area of history our Sifu didn't tell us to take with a grain of salt. [/quote]

No offense, but on the internet this doesn't mean a whole lot. Kungfu teacher's aren't really known to be the best historians. It would be a lot more helpful if you could find a way to post whatever documentation you have on the internet for discusion.

[GLW]

Tsui,

how confusing...

Zhang Sanfeng..Wudang, Shaolin... Why not add Yueh Fei and Lu Da in there too... (Lu Da is fictional, by the way)

"As I said in another section of this forum, this is one area of history our Sifu didn't tell us to take with a grain of salt."

And since HE doesn't take it with a grain of salt, it must be true. This is totally illogical and flies in the face of reputable historical research of all types.

"There is documentation of Chang Sang Feng creating an internal meditation to give a physical structure to the Iching, he went to Shaolin because they had a long tradition of meditation in movement."

Reallly...I wonder why Tang Hao and Gu Luxing didn't find that stuff when they spent most of their lives researching the origins of Taijiquan.

Chan Buddhism is NOT based upon moving meditation. It is still meditation. The modern day version or offshoots of this are still practiced in Japan...ZEN.

"The Chen's took what they learned from Wudang and combined it with prexisting fighting styles to become thier family Kung Fu. Also, the movements of the several forms that Chang Sang Feng created came from Shaolin and from various dance and exercise routines that had already existed, there is old references to "the great dance" it is belived this was inspiration."

Really convoluted.

A Dance now...the great dance in one sense is the fabric of life. Know when something is a metaphor and when it is literal.

"As to the veracity of my statements? My Sifu is the 12 successor of a line back to the 1500's, the founder learned at Shaolin and elsewhere. As a soldier, he had an awakening when he saw the distruction he had done and founded the Lamm Loong Pac (way of the blue dragon) as a vehicle to SAVE the knowledge that was being lost. "

And this means what? It still boils down to "My sifu said..." I can tell you of at least 5 VERY famous teachers in the US who claim to be one thing and are NOT...and that is without EVEN touching the topic of monks.

The likelihood that a single person outside of China who teaches kung fu in a commercial place would have the 'real' history is in itself pretty far fetched...much less the history you claim.

[Tsui]

I recognize the points you guys make, and that you have VERY valid reasons for doing so. I could not agree more that there is a TREMENDOUS amount of information and misinformation. We could each show each other volumes of written history concerning the same topics that take contray views. What can I say? The proof is in the pudding. I have seen other's Kung Fu BEFORE I met my current Sifu, no one else I've seen compares (somewhere I have no doubt, but none that I have seen) I have seen the respect given him by other teachers, I have seen the results of his teaching. He is known and respected by many in the Kung Fu world domestically and abroad. If you choose not believe me, there is nothing I could do on God's green earth to sway you. I suppose I could direct you to the Taoist Institute in CA. He taught there some ten years ago, his name is John Bright-Fey.

[[Censored]]

There is a lot of speculation that there was no Da Mo? Among whom?

What proof do you have that your great-great-grandmother ever existed? Because there is some speculation that she did not.

[Ky-Fi]

From what I've read and been taught, once you go back further than a few hundred years, Chinese martial arts lineages get pretty murky. As MFY said, it was common to attribute the creation of a style to a famous or charismatic figure. This is compounded with the fact that for a large part of Chinese history the scholars and intellectuals who recorded the history tended to look down on martial arts in general, and place little importance on them. As far as Cheng Sang Feng, I don't think there's common agreement on his role in the creation of Taijiquan. Personally I think it's more likely that the art slowly evolved from a long line of martial artists stretching way back before much history was recorded, rather than resulting from some sudden creation by an individual. I'm not saying everyone who makes ancient lineage claims is wrong, but I tend to be pretty skeptical of any school that says "This is exactly what happened 1000 years ago", when those claims would not really be agreed upon by most independant sources.

[GLW]

Reference the story of the frog in the well....

:)

To each his own

[Tsui]

I never did say that Chang Sang Feng just pulled Tai Chi out of his ear or from some lighting bolt from the skies, I said (in a nut shell) that he put pre-existing arts together with aid from his Shaolin buddies. It was not totally spontaneous.

GLW-If you look at my post I never suggested that Ch'an WAS moving meditation, only that they had a HISTORY of it. Tamo's 18 right? Intended to stregthen the monks bodies while helping them to refocus when they were distracted in their seated meditation. I don't mind you saying I'm wrong, or and idiot or something, nut brother PLEASE don't misquote me!

That all being said, why don't we agree to disagree eh? So many of these things end up sounding like Monty Python's Argument Clinic!

[Sam Wiley]

Tsui,
Don't even bother trying to argue Chang San-feng's existence with GLW. I've tried it. You'd get better results trying to drill a hole in a brick wall with your forehead.

And don't bother to compare him to any biblical figures. And don't for Pete's sake make correspondences between the Classics and religious texts. They hate that.

There are probably 1000 stories, all of them similar, but partly contradictory. There are pieces, however, that fit together with a little imagination and reading between the lines, and of course, you might have to take as a given what most everyone else says is a lie.

Many people when they consider Chang as having invented Taiji, picture him as having come up with something similar to the modern styles, but it's a pretty big leap between nothing at all, or even Shaolin martial arts to modern Taiji. One theory I have heard recently was that Chang wanted reflexive techniques, and invented 10 very simple short fa-jing forms, which do indeed give reflexive technique (I have known them for years, but never thought about Chang inventing them until I was discussing the creation of Taiji with friends in New Jersey a few months ago). These 10 forms build your energy tremendously, something that was probably a side effect at first. I learned them as basic point striking techniques, but they go beyond just technique into reflex actions. Also, every time I practice one at a fa-jing pace a few times, I become extremely yang and aggressive for a while.

Anyway, those forms have little resemblance to Taiji in its modern form. The theory goes that Chang experimented some more and came up with devastating combo strikes instead of simple set-ups and main strikes. So his art evolved a little bit. Probably through some acupuncture knowledge, meditation, and qigong and energetic knowledge he picked up at Shaolin, he developed 12 more sets of movements, some of which bear a striking resemblance to to the supposed earlier forms he invented. Each one of these movements supposedly works upon an individual meridian at a healing level when done with fa-jing, has a secondary qigong effect when done slowly, and also does specific energetic damage through combinations of points struck. Some of them are said to do the exact reverse of the healing effect when used in a fight. Anyway, here we see a few similarities between these short forms and modern Taiji, as some of the postures are very similar to modern Taiji postures. For instance, the ones that heal the heart and the small intestine end in postures strikingly similar to Brush Knee Twist Step and Fan Through Back, which are said to heal those same organs respectively.

Up until now, the forms have been very short, all fa-jing, and are translated easily into sparring and San Sau training. The next step in the evolution of Taiji, according to this theory, is where Chang tries to create longer forms, each focusing on a particular meridian. I'm not quite sure what happened at this stage, if the theory holds true, as some of the meridians have two forms for them, while others are lumped together all in one form. However, we really start to see similarities to modern Taiji at this stage. Not only are postures the same as in modern Taiji, but in the final several forms, there is a balance between slow and explosive, as in the "older" forms of modern Taiji. The first 6 of these forms are all fa-jing, while the last 6 contain slow qigong movements in between explosive movements. It was also at this stage that Push Hands came into being. The forms were no longer easily translated into simple fighting methods, but the core methods of each form were taken and used to create push hands like exercises. They are actually somewhere between push hands and San Sau training, technically.

There's really too much to discuss about this stuff in just one post. But if I may make some speculations of my own, considering that I have put forth this theory of Taiji's evolution now.

Supposedly, Yang Lu-chan learned through a hole in the wall. He heard fa-jing training while passing by and caught a glimpse of either Chang's first 10 forms or the next 12 in the evolutionary chain here. I really don't see how he could have learned Chen style forms at this stage without actual instruction, but these are pretty easy to pick up, and easy to conceal as they are only a second or two long each. When the challenger came to fight the Chen master and he was away, Yang accepted and beat him, using the reflex action non-techniques he had gleaned through the crack in the wall. Chen's top students recognised this, and informed the master, who tested Yang and decided to accept him as a disciple. And history pretty much picks it up from there.

This is all supposition of course. I think it would be really interesting if these 10 or 12 forms were released by the Chen family, providing a link between the styles I practice and their own art better than the one history provides. However, it was around this time that many of the old forms and training methods were abandoned, so we may never know. And also, about Yang's learning through a crack in the wall: The Chinese say that there are "large" people in the world, those who already have the internal and quickly learn this kind of stuff. Maybe Yang was one of them. Maybe all it took was a nudge in the right direction.

Anyway, it's just one theory.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[GLW]

Actually, I did NOt misquote you.

Tamo's stuff ...from the older texts was probably closer to a combined method. you assumed the posture and then did the breathing. Many of the older Dao Yin methods were like this. The concepts of moving meditation or moving Qi gong is actually much more recent.

Even the old methods that DO move that I have researched are nowhere close to any concept of moving meditation that would be a foundation for Taijiquan. They more closely resemble the breathing techniques done in Hung Gar in horse stance....or the Ba Tuan Jin....

As for Sam....

Need we go down this road Again... I refrain from throwing stones your way as often as possible.

I have done direct research into this as opposed to he said she said.... The 'classics' that many quote so well...from English translations I might add, are often themselves not that classic. The people they are attributed to are often of questionable existence.

But...for arguments sake...suppose there WAS a Zhang Sanfeng...and suppose he really did create a method of moving meditation....

The Chen's put it together into Chen style..that begat Yang, Wu, Sun....etc...

The concepts of vacuum tubes are the precursors of transistors...and they are the precursors of integrated circutis and semiconductors. But....I would hardly say that the vacuum tube was the original transistor....

[jbmmaster]

Isnt that the Style they used in The movie Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

[Water Dragon]

J.B.,
No. They used a lot of old legends in the movie to capture the "atmosphere" of old China. Wudang was famous for all of these legends, but, as far as I know, the choreagraphy in the movie had nothing to do with the movie. In fact, Taiji has never been traceable to Mt. Wudang at all. For that matter, neither have Hsing-Yi, Bagua, and Liuhebafa. The stories sound nice and give a sense of the esoteric to the "internal" arts, but that's all thet are are stories.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[Sam Wiley]

GLW,
That was uncalled for. I prefaced and ended what I had to say with statements that said it was all theory, unlike others who present theory as fact during this same discussion. Whether you want to admit it or not, the "historical" approach is theory, as well, because no one knows what happened, and I have already given you the reason why. Now, I hate to be an a-hole about stuff like this, but I was trying to save Tsui a lot of trouble, since you delight in theoretical ball-busting when it comes to the history of Taijiquan.

Andre asked for information about Wudang Taiji and Chang San-feng, and I provided some, unlike others who were content to argue amongst themselves or else speak to him like a child and put him down for asking for more info on someone it is currently in style to bash publicly. Also, despite your numerous negative comments about the existence of Chang, you have yet to provide any of your supposed research on this forum, or even any concrete proof that he never existed beyond cryptically mentioning authors most here have never read without even quoting them, which is worse than he said she said because you don't even tell people what they said! And as for the Classics, you know for a fact that the one main line we were arguing about I translated directly from Chinese and the translation was just what you said was incorrect. Furthermore, when I translated it directly, you began arguing that the Classics were not valid because there is no proof as to who authored them and I simply said that I believed that Wang did, and Wang is another figure whose existence you like to debate.

Ed McGaa, Eagle Man, once said that the way to end war in present times was to do like in the old days and put the chiefs on the frontline. Put your chief on the frontline and end the debate once and for all.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[GLW]

Uncalled for...?

Never heard of tongue in cheek before I guess...that is what the capitalization of Again was to imply....

The difference between a theory and history is that with history, there is at least some attempt to systematize and scrutinize the information.

While there MAY be a grain of truth in every story told...there are also a hell of a lot of grains of false.

As for ow Andre was spoken to...it is amazing how people will respond to you if you come out and state 'theories' as if they are cold hard fact and your 'theories' fly in the face of the generally accepted scholarly research on the subject you expounding on. This is essentially what several posts around here have done.

Beyond 400 years back, things get pretty unclear and to be honest, EVEN if you could produce a link between Peking Man and Modern Day Taijiquan, there comes a point back there where you can say "This is where it really became the art that evolved into Taijiquan today." That point is probably much closer to the 200 year mark than anything that a mythical figure could give us...even if said mythical figure did in fact live and did in fact do some exercise or martial art...which is not at all clear..and in many searches, contraindicated.

The same thing happens with Shaolin. The true apex of Shaolin was probably back around the 1600's. From that point on, much of the fame of Shaolin came from the glory days before. The methods and 'secrets' were spreading around quite a bit. Yet people still cling to the stories. They cling so much that they will pay big bucks to go to Shaolin and get ripped off.

Now after Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, will the same thing happen with Wudang Shan?

My personal take on this...If you do one of the 5 main branches of Taijiquan and train correctly, great...you can lay claim to a known lineage.

If you do another type of Taijiquan...but train correctly, you are probably still doing Taijiquan but can't claim the lineage...beyond "my master said"

If you do the modern routines and train correctly, you have roots and can understand them.

If you do something else, do not follow basic principles, do not adhere to the same principles of ALL Chinese Martial Arts, then I don't know what you are doing and you can claim nothing.

If a person wishes to discuss theories...then you can couch the statements in theory form..."What about..." "One story is", etc... But beyond the basic fabric of the Chen to Yang to Wu to Wu to Sun stories the rest gets to be supposition.

Even the stuff put out by the Yang family on their stories I have trouble with... Folks don't even notice the contradictions in the New Testament much less Taijiquan histories...so I take it ALL with a grain of salt.

[Tsui]

First I would like to remind you all that at the begining of my first post I said "as correct as you can be about something that haappened that long ago". I would thing that in itself should have been enough to satisfy most.

GLW- How can you say you didn't misquote me? If I say that Shaolin had a history of meditaion in motion and you say that Chan is NOT moving meditation, clearly your inference is that I said that it WAS. While in the strictest definition this is not a misquote it sure has all the trappings.

Sam- I appreciate all that you said and I think we have as close as you can come to a meeting of the minds here. You mentioned a connection between Chang Sang Feng's Tai Chi (as opposed to Chen's) and the Yang ancestor, I hadn't heard that theory but it brings me to an interesting point. I have begun learning one of the Chang Sang Feng longer sets and it's physical resemblance to Yang style is simply ASTONISHING. I haven't run this thought by my Sifu yet, but I had been thinking that there must have been some additional source material there that didn't come directly from the Chen.

[Sam Wiley]

GLW,
Point taken. I understand where you're coming from, believe it or not. But at least put something in there that shows you are not insulting him. The statement about Yueh Fei and Lu Da was pretty harsh, whether or not you had your tongue in your cheek. Make sure you don't bite down on it, okay? ;)

Tsui,
I can't say that I totally believe that theory. However, it does fill in a couple of gaps in the history, even if the stuff is insubstantiated. There are some similarities between the Wudang Taiji I have learned so far and the Chen style as well, suggesting that if the Wudang stuff is real then the Chens may have borrowed from it, or else they both may come from a common ancestor. However, the most noticable similarities are found between the Yang style and the Wudang style. If you look at both the old and new Yang forms and compare them with the Wudang Shan forms, there are some startling similarities.

I also read somewhere that one theoretician thought maybe Yang Lu-chan knew he did not receive all that his master knew, and went to Wudang Shan in search of the rest. Some people say that Yang first taught the Chen style after his stint at Chen Chiagou and later returned to their village with his own set that they were less than happy with. I know that with the Wudang stuff I have learned, only the first 4 forms at most were ever shown to outsiders, and usually not even that many. It is possible that Chen was never taught more than that, or else did not want to show Yang the other 8 sets in keeping with the tradition. My own teacher was shown the first 4 by his teacher, and after his death had to go to Wudang Shan for the rest, and he had to beg for almost a decade through letters and other correspondence before they would allow him to come. I don't know whether or not his teacher knew the rest, but I think he did because there are some training methods he taught my teacher that look as if they were taken right out of the other 8 forms.

Anyway, this one theory goes that when Yang returned from Wudang Shan, he brought Push Hands with him, or else had invented it. There are several proto-push hands methods that come from Wudang Shan, some bearing strong resemblence to push hands in its modern form. If this theory, that Yang went to Wudang Shan himself, is true, it is quite possible that he returned with these precursor methods, and later on they developed into what we know today as Push Hands.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[GLW]

Tsui
"If I say that Shaolin had a history of meditaion in motion and you say that Chan is NOT moving meditation, clearly your inference is that I said that it WAS. While in the strictest definition this is not a misquote it sure has all the trappings."

The inference you made was that Shaolin methods were as you claim them to be...moving meditation.

The documented versions of these methods MOVE to a posture...and then like Yoga, hold the posture and breathe and meditate. This is a far cry from moving meditation. I am taking your logical inference and conclusion...so, if you say STRICTEST sense, maybe I am slightly misquoting you. But if you are referring to following your line of reasoning and quoting from the logical conclusion of your words...I am not.

The methods employed by the Shaolin temple for meditation back that far are NOT that drastically different from the Indian methods that came with Buddhism from India. They are vastly different from the moving methods of today.

It IS interesting to compare Yoga methods that have remained pretty unchanged for a good while to the Chinese methods that have changed and grown a lot over the last 400 years. Even the term Qi gong is only around 100 years old or less....

the real issue is that what you state as fact is after all supposition and oral versions of history. Couch them in that light and I have no problem. State them as undisputable fact and I will point out the inconsistencies....as I did.

To take from Confucius, the good student, you give 3 sides of the square and he deduces the 4th. Well, you gave 3 and I took your conclusion.

SO... I DID read your words...and followed your train of thought.

My words may have been a bit too dry in humor for many to catch...but that is the problem with tongue in cheek sarcasm....it is sometimes taken too seriously.

As for the statements about Yang Luchan and his travels...several months before Fu Zhongwen died, I had the opportunity to have a leisurely lunch and discussion with him and several others...he did almost all of the talking. The topics were the roots nad history of Yang Style Taijiquan...and he denounced the Wudang connection and other connections to other arts...especially the Wudang connection that has been put forth by many on the origins of the Yang Taiji straightsword...he was absolutely adamant about the LACK of connection there.... His history is not disputed by any of the Yang Family...and he was pretty much recognized as the most knowledgeable of his generation on those points...even while others maintained that their methods for doing the forms was more correct than his...(also disputable).

That combined with Tang Hao and Gu Luxing's research makes me doubt it strongly.

[Stumblefist]

That's golden peak temple. And the monks in particular have only one concern: enlightenment. They practice kungfu in the same way as they eat a plate of vegetables: it is disposable. they only care for the spiritual. And what do they say about Zhang San Feng, the guy who is SUPPOSED to have given them their kung fu. ...
"Well, i didn't see him."
and Emperor Zheng Wu?
"Well, i didn't see him either?
and their kungfu?
"modern style".
I spend a few months there, and anything is apparent is that the place sometime, somehow was WIPED TOTALLT CLEAN. At first, the ancient relics and god road etc is impressive, but after a while it begins to dawn, ... this place was wiped, even the government has dated EVERY ruin with exactly the same (ficticious) date.
Only one impressive record remains: 6 large oils near the monks quarters in golden peak. That record (600 years old )shows the popular use of the straight sword and several postures we see in modern wushu.
As for tracing lineages: the taiji people of wudang (commercial schools) want to want claim wudang as the source of taiji and... the chen and Zhao Bao of Henan discalim it. All have the reason of MONEY-GREED to claim so as to get students etc.
From seeing how the source record was wiped in both areas, and how everything remains really localized in china and ancient china. i tend to believe the separate evolution ideas. Henan did not take fronm Hubei. It is more likely, there were some primitive exercises at wudang and later they took fom Henan in the modern era.
BTW, also there is no source record or even gravesite for the founder of Chen style in chenjiagou, only a commenorative plague in Chen xiaowang's school.
BTW, in Chenjiagou it was very funny, every time i asked somebody's name they said : "Chen", what else! finally i met , guess what .. "Yang". ;)

[TenTigers]

Does anyone know about this form? I have a friend who is learning it from a "Taoist Master" named Tseng? Supposedly from Wu Dang, yet he is about in his thirties, he has been in this country for about ten years, and Wu Dang hasn't been teaching until recently. I have heard this set might actually be the PRC's 48 movement combined form. However, the guy seems to know his stuff very well, nionetheless. I was wondering that although it might be wonderful-is it what it is claimed to be. or is that simply marketing for the western audience?

[fiercest tiger]

I saw a VCD of a wu dong Taiji performed by a Taoist master and i really enjoyed this type of Taiji. It was somewhat faster in his moves but flowed well and looked like he never lost the connection of chi whilst doing the form.

I dont know if its the same guy but if it is then that is a pretty good form i think.

FT:)

[Unfettered Palm]

Greetings,
TenTigers--It is true that Wudang opening it's doors is quite recent-early 1980's. T'seng is Wudang but practices other things also. he has videos for non-Wudang subjects so-- I can not say if its a prc form. He seems to be mostly about health from what i know, which is not much, about him.
There are eight main branches/gates, that make up the Wudang system. Taiji is one of those branches. Under the Taiji branch there are 15 forms. This is just in the San Feng Pai. There are many lineages that derive from Wudang so it makes it difficult when you hear a person saying they practice Wudang Taiji. The next question should be "what lineage or sect?" Its like asking someone "what style do you study?" and the reply bieng, "Shaolin." ....yeah.......thanks......
Granted shaolin has been studied by more people and is more popular, but the effect remains the same. My KF brother who is in Fujou is also a wudang disciple and is currently learning Tzi ren men--they practice Wudang Taiji and its not like ours so...
Fiercest tiger--The Wudang practioners on the VCD's are a different system of Wudang then us. Was the form you saw almost forever long? the one I saw is rather long. Plumpub.com has a wudang esoteric sect survey with (if it is) the same guy your talking about (san feng taiji) doing several of their styles forms. interesting and impressive.
From my understanding--San Feng Pai is the original lineage which traces itself back to Zhang San Feng. The other sects came from within SFP.
-Zi Zheng-

[TenTigers]

Unfettered Palm. does Wudang also have Hsing=Yi, and BaGua as well?

[Unfettered Palm]

Ten Tigers,
Xing Yi and Bagua are part of the 8 branches also. They were created by someone within the last 5 Generations of San Feng Pai. heres a list of the 8 branches:
ba xian
Bagua
Xing Yi
Taiji
xuan men
long hua
jiu gong
liu he ba fa
Baji
I know some wudang practitioners who are not san feng pai and they practice different lineages of bagua such as chen ting hua or yin.

[TenTigers]

I don't understand-Hsing-Yi Ch'uan and BaGua were not created nor were they developed in WuDan, there is also no evidence of Chang Seng-Feng creating Tai=Ch'i. I don't know about Liu Ho Pa Fa. Why are these systems taught in Wudan, and whay are they suddenly claiming some sort of lineage? How did this occur? Could you elaborate on the histories of these styles, where they came from, and how they got to be taught at Wudan? This does not seem correct.

[QuaiJohnCain]

WuDang is fake. Period.

[Unfettered Palm]

Ten Tigers, you said--I don't understand-Hsing-Yi Ch'uan and BaGua were not created nor were they developed in WuDan,"

-No one at wudang, nor i, ever said they were-

You said--"there is also no evidence of Chang Seng-Feng creating Tai=Ch'i. "

Your absolutely right. but theres also no proff theres a god who created the earth and...well you know the rest. But a whole lot of people say he did. and at Wudang and many other places, magazines, people, etc., they like to believe it. it isn't hurting anyone so, why not? BUT, theres a text that is quite old and it reveals zhang san feng as bieng the creator of taiji. I do not know all that much info but i will look for the exact info. the text is older than chen style so it eliminates the thought of Chen style as bieng the creator--I AM NOT SYAING THIS IS TRUE SO CHEN STYLISTS DONT EVEN BOTHER HOPPING IN ON THIS ONE :O)

You said--"I don't know about Liu Ho Pa Fa."

Neither do i

You said--"Why are these systems taught in Wudan, and whay are they suddenly claiming some sort of lineage? How did this occur?"

I or anyone at Wudang for that matter, has never claimed that bagua or xing yi were created at wudang and no one there is claiming lineage to them. I only said they are part of our system. the bagua and xing yi in our system are...WUDANG bagua and WUDANG xing yi. they were created using WUDANG movement, theory and principles.


You said--" Could you elaborate on the histories of these styles, where they came from, and how they got to be taught at Wudan? This does not seem correct."

I do not know who created them but I would guess it was a master(s) within the last five generations bieng that bagua is only a few centuries old. I believe but am not sure that xing yi is even newer. I have not done much research on xing yi but I thought Sun Lu Tang was the originator of it. as far as bagua goes, I believe that Dong Hai Chuan is regarded as the originator. Chen Ting Hua and Yin Fu were his top two disciples, as I am led to believe. They are taught there because some master got inspired liked bagua and maybe the same guy or a different one, not even in the same time period, thought Wudang should have it's own form of these arts. lets face it, there are off shoots of many arts- it doesnt mean they should be regarded as less worthy--just different. and all the forms that everyone practices were created by someone. I have heard from many people that Wudang is a fake but It seems to have everything that makes up a complete system. Fighting apllication and drills. forms. medicine, iron skills, qi gong, meditations, taoist yoga. There are many schools in China that claim to teach wudang but they do not. they teach standardized sets. but there are masters and schools on and around Wudang that teach traditional material. remember, Wudang has over 70 habitable mountain ranges. there are practitioners all over. and in Shi Yan (the major city of Hubei) there are seperate Wudang Organizations/federations that are seperate from us (San Feng Pai) You know how politics goes in the martial arts circles. it is no different in China or any where in the world for that matter. San Feng Pai was the first to open it's doors though. Bottom line. so to some it might seem like B.S.-all of a sudden this system comes out of nowhere. it does seem skeptical, but its real. Go To China and see for yourself. it is also held in High regard from common folk and the Chinese government.
Hope this cleared up a bit--look forward to hearing your response Ten-

[TenTigers]

Hmmm, so in essence, what you're saying is that they created a wudan version of Tai-Chi, etc and called it wudan tai-chi. This is understandable. If I wanted my own version, I would do likewise. The Chinese Gov't has access to many Martial Artisits who can provide input. They already have standardized forms, so to combine methods from these is quite simple. However your saying that,
"it is also held in High regard from common folk and the Chinese government." is not any indication of quality or authenticity. The Common folk are uneduacated, illiterate, non-Martial Artists, and the Chinese Government perpetuates myths, legends, and capitalizes on anything and everything they touch. Look at Shaolin-it is nothing more than a tourist trap, with guys dressed up as monks, just like Disney has people dressed up as Mickey and Donald. I already know of a guy who paid three grand to live and train at wudan, and he learned standardized wu-shu sets.
In the Liang Dynasty (502-557AD) and Tang Dynasty(618-907AD) there were already techniques resembling Tai-Chi, called Thirty-Seven Postures, Post Heaven Techniques, and Nine Small Heaven.
Some records indicate that Zheng San-Feng was made an immortal figure to cover up the assination plot against Emperor Jian-We by Yong-Le. Yong-Le sent assasins all over China, claiming they were searching for the immortal Zheng San-Feng, and to further cover up his plot, and lies to the people, he commanded a Temple be built to honor Zheng in Wudan Mountain, thus Zheng and Wudan Mountain became legendary in China.
Wang Zong-Yue's Tai-Chi classics are well-known by Tai Chi practitioners. He sysetematically summerized the priciples of Taichi using the Yin-Yang theory, and was the first to call this Martial Art, Tai Chi Ch'uan.
Wang Zong-Yue is also credited for teaching General Jiang-Fa in the Later Ming Dynasty, who is also credited for teaching the art in Chen village.(Taijiquan Xiaoxu, written by Li Yi-Yu(1832-1892AD).

There doesn't seem to be any indication that there were any Martial Arts created at Wudan until recently, and most likely as a result of popularising the Temple and creating yet another means of tourism.
That being said, the forms taught at Wudan are quite beautiful and breathtaking, and they have collected quite a number of them as well as chi-kung exercises. Is it real? Sure. It's all real. If you create a form, it would also be real. So it is not exactly a hoax. But it is funny how all of a sudden Wudan forms, styles, sword sets are springing up all over the place, and there are training tours at Wudan.
Mark my words, the next flavor of the week will be Hua=Shan, and you will see Taoists coming out of the woodwork teaching all sorts of longevity chi-kung "secrets". The time is ripe for this. The Western public is finally getting concerned about health, nutrition, and longevity. Depak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and others have paved the way. It's like foreplay. I'm waiting for Taoist Pilates.
(if I were really smart, I'd keep this to myself and put out DVD's-look out Billy Blanks, here comes Tao-Bo!)

[fiercest tiger]

10 Tigers,

Isnt the founder of LHBF from hua shan?

ft

[Unfettered Palm]

"Hmmm, so in essence, what you're saying is that they created a wudan version of Tai-Chi, etc and called it wudan tai-chi. This is understandable. If I wanted my own version, I would do likewise. The Chinese Gov't has access to many Martial Artisits who can provide input. They already have standardized forms, so to combine methods from these is quite simple."

No, that is not what I said. I said that the wudang bagua and the xing yi were created by a wudang master off the blueprints of previous bagua and xing yi system. wudang taiji is the first formalized art of wudang. (In san feng pai it goes back 16 generations) I honestly don't care when or who created taiji, i only stated that zhang san feng is regarded as the founder of it in wudang and by people all around china. Most people that discredit wudang, i find, have never even been to china. because it is only now starting to open up in the west doesnt mean it is fake. It just means you should do more research. I like to see things for myself before i believe them but thats me. There are way too many B.S. artist, especially in martial arts, watering down systems or just trying to be business men off the name of something once thought special. Just because Shaolin is now a very popular tourist attraction doesn't mean that traditional shaolin arts are not taught any more. and in this country alone the spirit of shaolin is strong. If i am correct your art is considered shaolin. The same goes for wudang. there is real stuff and there is fake stuff. and that is with any style. --You should create your own form or at least do something to contribute your knowledge to your system. It shows personality, broadens the system, and helps it evolve.

"However your saying that,
"it is also held in High regard from common folk and the Chinese government." is not any indication of quality or authenticity. The Common folk are uneduacated, illiterate, non-Martial Artists, and the Chinese Government perpetuates myths, legends, and capitalizes on anything and everything they touch. Look at Shaolin-it is nothing more than a tourist trap, with guys dressed up as monks, just like Disney has people dressed up as Mickey and Donald. I already know of a guy who paid three grand to live and train at wudan, and he learned standardized wu-shu sets."


loop hole in wording--common folk, middle class and up to the government. I agree with you on the shaolin thing. and maybe wudang will be made into the next shaolin, but that is why it s starting to open up the doors. to get the real stuff out. its a shame that close minded people cant see this. There are kung fu practitioners that live on hua shan but there is no hua shan kung fu. but if it came out and was a respectable system created by someone who spent more than a week creating it, who are we to discredit it. Wudang has a complete system of fighting drills, applications, forms, weapons, medicine, qigong, meditation, blah blah you get the point. its a shame you are quick to implyu it is fake and government created. its too old to have been government created.


"In the Liang Dynasty (502-557AD) and Tang Dynasty(618-907AD) there were already techniques resembling Tai-Chi, called Thirty-Seven Postures, Post Heaven Techniques, and Nine Small Heaven.
Some records indicate that Zheng San-Feng was made an immortal figure to cover up the assination plot against Emperor Jian-We by Yong-Le. Yong-Le sent assasins all over China, claiming they were searching for the immortal Zheng San-Feng, and to further cover up his plot, and lies to the people, he commanded a Temple be built to honor Zheng in Wudan Mountain, thus Zheng and Wudan Mountain became legendary in China.
Wang Zong-Yue's Tai-Chi classics are well-known by Tai Chi practitioners. He sysetematically summerized the priciples of Taichi using the Yin-Yang theory, and was the first to call this Martial Art, Tai Chi Ch'uan.
Wang Zong-Yue is also credited for teaching General Jiang-Fa in the Later Ming Dynasty, who is also credited for teaching the art in Chen village.(Taijiquan Xiaoxu, written by Li Yi-Yu(1832-1892AD)."

the Chinese Government perpetuates myths, legends, and capitalizes on anything and everything they touch. -- you said it. why is your story valid?


"There doesn't seem to be any indication that there were any Martial Arts created at Wudan until recently, and most likely as a result of popularising the Temple and creating yet another means of tourism."

even yang jwing ming discusses wudang in some of his books. they werent written a hundred years ago but they werent written last month either. I doubt he is writing that on behalf of the chinese government either for the sake of tourism. There are other sources. I dont think you will believe me anyway, but thats good. do your homework.

"That being said, the forms taught at Wudan are quite beautiful and breathtaking, and they have collected quite a number of them as well as chi-kung exercises. Is it real? Sure. It's all real. If you create a form, it would also be real. So it is not exactly a hoax. But it is funny how all of a sudden Wudan forms, styles, sword sets are springing up all over the place, and there are training tours at Wudan.
Mark my words, the next flavor of the week will be Hua=Shan, and you will see Taoists coming out of the woodwork teaching all sorts of longevity chi-kung "secrets". The time is ripe for this. The Western public is finally getting concerned about health, nutrition, and longevity. Depak Chopra, Andrew Weil, and others have paved the way. It's like foreplay. I'm waiting for Taoist Pilates.
(if I were really smart, I'd keep this to myself and put out DVD's-look out Billy Blanks, here comes Tao-Bo!)"

Your on to something with Tao-Bo...lol. I agree with many things you have said. But Wudang is not fake as some might believe. not exactly a hoax, but your implying it is ...in a nice way. as i said there are many fakes out there that will try to cash in on the wudang name. This discussion has been very interesting, but i have no further interest on trying to prove the authenticity of wudang. I can speak only on san feng pai. which is the biggest traditional system to come out. (according to my knowledge so far). The academy on the mountain is san feng pai but I will not get into the politics about it. my master left teh academy and teaches at a school at the base of the mountain. he is still apart of their association, but does not agree with teh forms for sale idea, training tours and all that jazz. theres nothing wrong with making money but there are quite a few things that you can not buy either. those are the things that people dont know about. and thats whats real.
wow, these posts are getting longer...cant wiat to see your response..lol..

[fiercest tiger]

I wouldnt doubt that there is wundang martial arts but maybe its secretive and they do not want it to change like the west have destroyed alot of the old systems. Most people rule out a system cause they never have heard of it or seen it or its never been written about.


Why do you believe there is no Hua Shan martial arts are you including chi kung as martial arts related? Have you been and seen and lived in those mountains or just hear say?

cheers
Ft

[TenTigers]

FT-dn't be too quick to say that they got watered down by the westerners. There are many Chinese teachers who watered down their art, before it got into our hot little hands. And not only in the west,as there are quite a few in HK and Mainland as well. This is not a recent thing either. I have old issues of HK magazines that have total B,S, being perpetuated by Chinese "Masters"-just like the old man peddling the Buddha's Palm manual in 'Kung-Fu Hustle", if people want something, and want to believe in something, sometimes it's all you can do to convince them otherwise.
Unfettered-actually, I was not referring to your style or Sifu, but another person who claims to be a Wudan Taoist Master, who is simply teaching the PRC 48 move combined set, and the guys who taught my friend other standardised sets at Wudan. If you found someone who is the reall deal, mazel-tov.
So, what exactly does seng-feng pai mean? Why seng-feng, and not Zhang? If Zhang is the surname, wouldn't it be more proper to name it Zhang P'ai? as in Hung Gar P'ai?

[fiercest tiger]

Very true dude, i think it happens everywhere....the west just add more sh!t a art to destroy it thats all.

Can i buy the buddha palms from you?;)

FT

[shog]

All I know is that there is a wudang/taoist kung fu site on the web that practices many forms of kung fu including taijiquan.

The site is: http://www.wudang.com

Of course they teach and consult in other areas as well.


This link explains some things as well:

http://www.chiflow.com/html/Taijiquan_origins.htm

Wudang Kung Fu Tradition (http://www.wtkfa.org/wudang/index.html)

Wudang Taijiquan is real enough for me.


:)

[Unfettered Palm]

FT..
at this moment in time there is no formalized martial art that is from hua shan. there are many taoist arts there bieng that Taoist culture is quite popular there to say the least. not to say that there arent any masters there who practice martial arts, but they have not organized an art ther....yet...its just a matter of time... I have several friends who have spent time on hua shan, in cluding my master. I have not had the privelage of going there yet. I can't seem to get away from wudang. :o)

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Mate,

Hey, love to see some pics of wudang temples and mountains as well some pics of you training if you have any and like to send some please feel free to send to my email sifu@yaukungmun.com.au

regards
Garry:)

[shadowlin]

Our oral traditions say that the internal systems were created in Wudang.

Likely they were brought to Wudang and perfected, then lost, and brought back again in various forms.

Chang San Feng's contribution to the art notwithstanding, he did in fact write in the Tai Chi Classics, which you can read for yourself from various translations. He is the earliest to write on Tai Chi. Doens't mean he was the creator. But it is a fun story, and worth passing on in one's oral tradition. I like to use it because it makes things crystal clear for students, which may be why the legend was created if not for historical accuracy.

Anyhow, it's almost certain that the Chen family did NOT create tai chi, as it seems to be much older than their lineage.

There is a form in our system called the Buddhafist, which is not Tai Chi, but certainly a pre-cursor. Its origins are undoubtedly Buddhist (looking at the opening postures), but not neccesarily Shaolin. However, it would seem to suggest that the internal arts have been around almost as long as Shaolin 5 animals.

In another book, they claim that it was a woman at Shaolin that came up with moving meditation. That is also very possible. Women seem to "get" internal arts a lot faster than men. But I wouldn't place a bet on it (even if I could learn the outcome anyhow).

In the end, it doesn't seem to matter.

But let's not be naive and say that Wudang internal arts and martial arts developed completely separate from Shaolin, Chen Chou Kou, or the other temples... (especially Omei Shan). That just wouldn't make sense considering the mingling of peoples and philosophies.

[GeneChing]

Most scholars tend to think that the Zhang San Feng creation legend is just legend based upon a preponderance of evidence. However, the same beleif is held about Bodhidharma and Shaolin. Creation myths are only myths. They have an intrinsic value within their embedded symbolic lessons. Even if they are not true, it does not invalidate the practice. Many of the roots of Chinese culture have mythic origins - for example, some say Confucious was supposed to be twelve feet tall. Guan Gong was also supposed to be a giant of similar height, plus he came back from the grave as a ghost. These are myths. But just because they aren't fact, in no way implies that Confucianism or martial arts are invalid. It just says that our founders were creative. The Zhang San Feng appears in the Epitaph of Wang Changnan which is dated 1669 CE. That still gives Zhang San Feng over 300 years of history, even if faked. The ironic thing is that while some of your are pointing your fingers at the Chinese government, Epitaph of Wang Changnan is a thinly disguised attack on the Chinese Government. That's origins for you, and the nature of Chinese cultural research - it's like a Chinese box: each box contains another.

Speaking of Chinese boxes, what's interesting is that at Wudang, Zhang San Feng isn't the main deity. It's really all about Zhen Wu. After all, Wudang is named after Zhen Wu and he's a far more important figure in Chinese mythology. I think this is a classic example of how narrow most martial arts people are in their research. It's sloppy really, and shameful. If you're really interested in Wudang, Zhen Wu and Zhang San Feng, you should check out our Wudang Special (Sep/Oct 2002) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=235) and my cover story on The Chief Priest of Wudang Mountain, Taoist Grandmaster Zhong Yun Long (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=378).

[wudangzhang]

Tai Ji is originated from Infinity. It is the basis for all movement and stillness. It is the originator of the Two Extremes (Yin and Yang).

Tai Ji was formed from Infinity by separating Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang are the equal and opposite pair. Sometimes Yin stands for female and Yang stands for male. In Tai Ji, Yin represents stillness and Yang represents movement. The workings of the universe is based upon Yin and Yang.

In Tai Ji, there is stillness in movement and movement in stillness. The two are interconnected and should not be separated. Internal power is through control of the mind. Concentration of mind moves the internal energy prior to any external movement.

Taijiquan is not simply the exercise for elderly, which is perhaps what is known to Westerners. It is in fact a combination of Yin and Yang, Tai Ji and Infinity. It is an art requiring perfect control of mind. It integrates stillness and movement, from external to internal, from movement to stillness, from elementary to advanced, and merging stillness with movement. Taijiquan not only directs internal power to external movements, it combines the mind with breathing, resulting in good health and an art of combat applications.

There are 13 postures (8 hand/arm movements and 5 body movements) in Tai Ji. The 8 hand/arm movements: Beng, Lu, Ji, An, Zai, Lie, Zhou, and Gao. In simplified terms, they mean: ward off, pull back, push, press, oblique turning, twist, elbow strike, and shoulder strike. The 5 body movements are directional. They are: advance, retreat, shift to the left, shift to the right and stable equilibrium. The 13 postures are based on the 8 trigrams and 5 elements. Requirements include relaxing, body coordination, concentration of mind, and stillness in movement.

Taijiquan is a stepping-stone to Daoism. In Daoism, one has to train one’s behavior and mind. It is important to keep a peaceful mind. Through meditation, combining Yin and Yang, and stillness in movement, the internal power will flow through the whole body achieving the ultimate aim.

http://www.daoistkungfu.com/academy/Programs.html

[taai gihk yahn]

take your trolling somewhere else

[Scott R. Brown]

take your trolling somewhere else

How can a morally relative person care about someone trolling? Is it a Yin-Yang thing, or are you just relatively, morally relative?;)

[jack]

[QUOTE=wudangzhang;932609]Tai Ji is originated from Infinity. It is the basis for all movement and stillness. It is the originator of the Two Extremes (Yin and Yang).

Just becoz taiji has ying & yang theory doesn't meant it orginated from wudang.
U can find taoism, buddhism, confucianism etc books easily on the street.

[GLW]

Misleading ?

Can we translate that as "Bold faced LIE"