So you hate point sparring?

[SanHeChuan]

What do you think of Point sparring?
What about Continuous Sparring?
What about Light contact Sparring?

I think point sparring has it's usefulness in MA, but is often abused and misused like so many other things in the MA; eg. forms, belts, tournaments, etc...

First off Point sparring should not be considered a simulation of a Fight. It is just another drill, only instead of teaching you a specific technique, it is used to teach you principles. The Two main principles it teaches are Timing and Distance. Could every thing taught in point sparring also be taught in San shou, Hell yes it could. But not every one wants to compete full contact. Point sparring could be a stepping stone to more serious simulations. The principles taught should be universal and applicable to both point and full contact sparring with minor variation in application.

The biggest detriment to Point sparring usefulness is the break after every Point. This teaches fighters to strike once and not to follow up. This very aspect is the sports biggest break from simulated reality. One should limit the practice of "Stop" sparring to Tournaments, and a little tournament preparation.

Because of its first contact nature most people mistakenly believe that it is an exercise of pure speed. The Fastest wins. This is not necessarily true. A good strategy, ability to read opponents, deception, and especially Timing can defeat speed. Light contact Sparring should be more like a chess match than a physical contest.

Other bad habits can also be formed depending on the rules used. No head contact, No contact to the back, or groin are unrealistic rules as well as No leg checks or take downs. And there was the story about that one Black belt who got robbed on the subway and broke his finger while trying to strike the guy, because his school didn't spar with fists but only finger contact.

Conforming to the differing and ofter unrealistic rules of most formal competitions is at worst an exercise in adaptability. Just like a San shou guy competing in a Muay Thai fight. Most styles develop rules that play to their strengths, unwilling or unable to recognized other methods.

In ones own school Continuous light contact sparring could be a very useful teaching aid, especially when full contact is not available or wanted. If one were to allow a full range of techniques, to all vital targets (minus the throat and eyes), to including take downs, and emphasize good control for safety. Would that be so bad?

Do you reject all light contact free fighting because some MA, maybe even most MA, twist it to promote their own delusions? Or do you look for the positives and promote the usefulness that can be found?

[neilhytholt]

What do you think of Point sparring?
What about Continuous Sparring?
What about Light contact Sparring?


IMHO any sparring with closed hand gloves is pretty useless.

[BlueTravesty]

I think you summed it up pretty nicely! Light contact continuous is a great way to learn timing, distance and technique... a good way to prep for true "stress testing."

On sparring nights sifu will usually have us rotate to difference partners and do round of continuous sparring. After everyone has fought everyone else at least once, we do a couple rounds of point sparring. No strikes or kicks to the back, groin or knee. At best, it's a combat "game." Like anything else in CMA (Chi Sao, Bagua Circle, Iron Rings, Dummy Training, two man sets.) it's useful unless it's abused.

[PlumDragon]

Im not a big fan of point sparring but I do think that continuous sparring can lose intent due to entering a stangnant state of not "finishing the job". IMO, its important to get in there, do whatever damage you can, reset and try again. Sparring needs to have a "goal state" other than simply getting through a 5-minute round.

I believe that this is why many wing chun (I dont mean to pick on wing chun people, there are just lots of clips out there that show what Im saying and happen to be wing chun) people run into problems with their chi sao--instead of trying to actually trap and get to a point where they can effectively strike, the goal loses some intent and takes a turn towards simply going through the motions of the interacting with the next move, rather than really trying to penetrate, trap, strike, etc.

Light contact sparring has purpose too; Its an equation and we msut balance it to suit our needs; with light contact, you can preserve more form to your technique and work on things without having to focus on the drilling or getting drilled.

All of these sorts of drills have their place at some time or another, I think. They all facilitate the learning process, leading up to the final goal of all-out fighting.

[SanHeChuan]

IMHO any sparring with closed hand gloves is pretty useless.

neilhytholt,

One what does IMHO mean?

Two, if it's useless that's fine, but why do you believe it to be useless?

Most Point sparring gloves have open hands.

If the point of the sparring match is the application of Overlaying principles, instead on the application of individual techniques, couldn't you still learn those principles with in the limited rule bound context of a sparring match.


No strikes or kicks to the back, groin or knee.

BlueTravesty,

Why no Strikes to the back? Are their no vital areas to strike at on the back? Could you not injure someone by striking their back? Doesn't limiting strikes to the back encourage people to turn their backs to their opponent where one can not defend? Would someone on the street not attack your back?

I can certainly understand no striking to the knee and should have included it in my post.

But a cup can protect your groin. I don't think it is always necessary to include groin attack, but one should use cups and groin attacks regularly. Every rule that limits where you can strike, or how you can strike removes Sparring that much further from the "truth". The only rules in place should be the limited as much as possible to the application of minimal safety.

No "Strikes" to the Throat, Eyes, and Joints. Contact limited to light and Controlled, until advanced, where the contact can increase but the control must remain.

[Chief Fox]

SanHeChuan, IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

Don't bother asking neilhytholt direct questions or for explanations. He will tip toe and dance around the issue but never directly face it. I suspect that he's a wannabe who has learned all he knows (if anything) from watching The Ultimate Fighter seasons 1 and 2.

[Chief Fox]

Point Sparring, I don't care for it too much. I can see it developing quickness and accuracy but from what I've experienced and witnessed there is no focus on combinations and flow.

Continuous sparring, I like it. I think it's more realistic and allows you to really set up a strategy as well as totally tax your cardio vascular system.

Light contact sparring, I believe is a great training tool to work on new techniques as well as develop timing and foot work.

[neilhytholt]

SanHeChuan, IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

Don't bother asking neilhytholt direct questions or for explanations. He will tip toe and dance around the issue but never directly face it. I suspect that he's a wannabe who has learned all he knows (if anything) from watching The Ultimate Fighter seasons 1 and 2.

Closed hand gloves don't allow you to do any grappling.

Chief Fox, you never ask any good questions. Instead you're always attacking.

[SPJ]

point sparring or any sparring is good.

as long as it is not the ONLY thing you do.

:)

[Fu-Pow]

Point sparring as a drill =OK.

Point sparring as a competition=bad.

[Kymus]

What do you think of Point sparring?

I think that it's okay as a sparring tool, but would not consider it "real" sparring. I use point sparring to practice tactics as well as learning how to hit first and get hit last (if at all). But for me, any sparing is always full contact save for critical areas. I find it really, really, really absurd that actual tournament rules ban hits to the head and back.


What about Continuous Sparring?

That's what I prefer. It's much more realistic and will help build endurance as well. Not many people realise that they are gonna be winded in 3 to 5 mins or less.


What about Light contact Sparring?

It's fun. That's about it. That's why I do it.

[The Willow Sword]

What do you think of Point sparring?

As useless as the T!Ts on a boar hog.:rolleyes:




What about Continuous Sparring?


As useless as the T!Ts on a eunich:p



What about Light contact Sparring?

As Useless as the T!Ts on a efeminate heterosexual :D


TWS

[BlueTravesty]

BlueTravesty,

Why no Strikes to the back? Are their no vital areas to strike at on the back? Could you not injure someone by striking their back? Doesn't limiting strikes to the back encourage people to turn their backs to their opponent where one can not defend? Would someone on the street not attack your back?

I can certainly understand no striking to the knee and should have included it in my post.

But a cup can protect your groin. I don't think it is always necessary to include groin attack, but one should use cups and groin attacks regularly. Every rule that limits where you can strike, or how you can strike removes Sparring that much further from the "truth". The only rules in place should be the limited as much as possible to the application of minimal safety.

No "Strikes" to the Throat, Eyes, and Joints. Contact limited to light and Controlled, until advanced, where the contact can increase but the control must remain.

Well, I certainly agree that strikes and kicks to the back can be quite effective, and sifu has talked up their effectiveness. However, he wants to avoid injury as much as possible. We are quickly broken of the habit of turning our backs though. One of the few times we're allowed to "grapple" is to control the back and strike the back of the head. We're also warned to limit the use of any spinning technique.

As for groin strikes, sifu has talked about scoring groin strikes, but not until all the guys in class remember to bring a cup. This unfortunately has only happened a few times. (I am partially guilty in this, since I usually come straight from work... gotta start packing it in my gym bag.)

[Chief Fox]

Closed hand gloves don't allow you to do any grappling.

Chief Fox, you never ask any good questions. Instead you're always attacking.
And you never answer the question asked. Case in point, the question was, what do you think of point sparring not, what do you think of closed hand gloves.

Who says you have to use gloves to spar?

[BlueTravesty]

And you never answer the question asked. Case in point, the question was, what do you think of point sparring not, what do you think of closed hand gloves.

Who says you have to use gloves to spar?

Of COURSE you have to wear gloves, otherwise the spikes dig into your knuckles :D

[Meat Shake]

One time I was point sparring this guy and I used a super high flying tiger karate black dragon ninja kick and hit him in the head so hard he exploded.

[Judge Pen]

Great post SHC. I agree 100%. The problem is that many styles never do anything more than point/light continous sparring, but I suppose something is better than nothing.

[Meat Shake]

Oh stop being so cordia and politel JP.
Point sparring sucks and you know it.
:eek:



Actually, Im just being an arse.

wait wait... no.
Point sparring does suck. It was cool when I was a child and afraid of getting hit, and it was also fun when I was a pregnant woman. Now that I am an unshaven stinky hairy college man, we fight. Sometimes we even use bricks for gloves. And eat sloppy joes.

[Judge Pen]

Oh stop being so cordia and politel JP.
Point sparring sucks and you know it.
:eek:



Actually, Im just being an arse.

wait wait... no.
Point sparring does suck. It was cool when I was a child and afraid of getting hit, and it was also fun when I was a pregnant woman. Now that I am an unshaven stinky hairy college man, we fight. Sometimes we even use bricks for gloves. And eat sloppy joes.

Glad to see you back around MS. Missed ya!

And I'm a polite and cordial guy until you cross hands with me or meet me in court.

[Ray Pina]

IMHO any sparring with closed hand gloves is pretty useless.

From my experience everything short of specific knuckle strikes can be carried out while weating 10 or 12 oz closed boxing gloves. None of my locks require the use of my very small and weak fingers. Palm strikes still hurt with boxing gloves because there is no padding there, and very little on the side of the glove.

I have my students wear boxing gloves and closed head gear when I want them to be a little less cautious and more agressive .... maybe to break them out of as week of lethargical training, when they're dogging it.

When they seem crisp and aggressive, I have them do punchign drills with the boxing gloves to tire them out, and then have them fight with MMA gloves.

[hung-le]

I have never understood light sparring or point sparring...in fact, that mentality is what I think led to the un-healthy disrespect of the grappling arts and the oh so painfull reality check that MMA inacted on many....

With todays modern equipment why would someone point sparr? I think one should sparr with enouph force that when you get hit it should stun. with protective equpiment it allows you to come back for more the next day.......

That doesn't mean I believe in knocking the other guy's chicklets out, or throwing him so hard that he craps himself....

Sparring should be controlled so one improves technique, but done with enouph reality that it matters......

[Judge Pen]

I think one should sparr with enouph force that when you get hit it should stun. with protective equpiment it allows you to come back for more the next day.......

That doesn't mean I believe in knocking the other guy's chicklets out, or throwing him so hard that he craps himself....

Sparring should be controlled so one improves technique, but done with enouph reality that it matters......

I think that is the ideal sparring condition for those TMA schools that don't train primarily for sport or competitive fighting. But, then again, when you make the martial arts into your income producing business, many people are intimadated by even this degree of contact. Hence most schools don't spar like this regularly.

[SanHeChuan]

Ideally none of use would run commercial schools, and we would only teach like minded individuals who enjoyed a good a$$ whoop-in.

One of the Jobs as an instructor is to bring people around to your way of thinking. Light contact sparring is a good stepping stone, confidence builder, for entering into the greater world of hurt.

[hung-le]

I think that is the ideal sparring condition for those TMA schools that don't train primarily for sport or competitive fighting. But, then again, when you make the martial arts into your income producing business, many people are intimadated by even this degree of contact. Hence most schools don't spar like this regularly.


yea that's true....

[neilhytholt]

my very small and weak fingers

Sorry you have such small and weak fingers.

[dainos]

looking at thease posts it seems that almost all of you guys seem to love thinking when you spar.i do my best to have an empty mind. and once a while ill think "hey maybe ill try doing that kind of move but i usssally never try to think all the time:D

[Ray Pina]

Sorry you have such small and weak fingers.

Don't be. My fingers are of average proportiona, and probably stronger than most because I train them ... but considerably weak when compared to someone's full arm (wrist, forearm, upper arm, shoulder,back), back, hip, and leg power. If someone knows how to connect all of these it becomes very difficult to lock them. Even without knowing this, if you allow small joint manipulation (which most MMA events don't), it is not too difficult to peel a finger off like an orange peel.... however, a good grappler will conceal his fingers. A better grappler will break what he's locked before you have time to remove the lock.

But if you missed the first point these latter points probably weigh not too much in your martial mind.

[neilhytholt]

Don't be. My fingers are of average proportiona, and probably stronger than most because I train them ... but considerably weak when compared to someone's full arm (wrist, forearm, upper arm, shoulder,back), back, hip, and leg power. If someone knows how to connect all of these it becomes very difficult to lock them. Even without knowing this, if you allow small joint manipulation (which most MMA events don't), it is not too difficult to peel a finger off like an orange peel.... however, a good grappler will conceal his fingers. A better grappler will break what he's locked before you have time to remove the lock.

But if you missed the first point these latter points probably weigh not too much in your martial mind.

Yeah, I don't know ... honestly I don't do any small joint manipulation so that doesn't make a difference to me. Chin-na style holds are pretty weak.

But it's kindof hard to grab somebody's arm for even a moment when you have boxing gloves on. It seems like they invented MMA gloves for a reason.

[MasterKiller]

I use 7 oz gloves like these: http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf.aspx?ID=22292

Decent padding but open fingers and palms.

[neilhytholt]

I use 7 oz gloves like these: http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf.aspx?ID=22292

Decent padding but open fingers and palms.

Yeah, I have something like that, but by Kim Pacific I got a few years ago at an old karate school. I don't see how you'd be able to do grappling with boxing gloves, but maybe I'm just dense.

I mean, I've caught the Chinese tournaments (sanda or whatever) where they do grappling without hands, but they can't seem to get many techniques off. Basically a few throws, a few arm locks, that's about it.

[Fu-Pow]

Sparring should be controlled so one improves technique, but done with enouph reality that it matters......

Beautifully put.....

[Fu-Pow]

I use 7 oz gloves like these: http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf.aspx?ID=22292

Decent padding but open fingers and palms.

Don't you have problems with scratches using gloves like those?

[neilhytholt]

Don't you have problems with scratches using gloves like those?

There's a little something called fingernail clippers, but since you have me in your ignore list, I guess you'll never learn about those.