The right way to stop kung fu?

[MARTIALSTUDANT]

Is there a certin respect or a right way to stop learning from a sifu if you decide to switch schools or maybe your intrest shift elsewere?

[neilhytholt]

Is there a certin respect or a right way to stop learning from a sifu if you decide to switch schools or maybe your intrest shift elsewere?

It's nice to let your sifu or the people at the school know you're leaving so they can throw you a party or have a dinner.

That's assuming they're nice people and you had a good relationship. Otherwise, just let them know so they can angrily chase you out the door. LOL

[SPJ]

usually you let your teacher know that you will be studying under the other teacher first.

:)

[Meat Shake]

As SPJ said, let the original teacher know before you stop attending, but also be sure to make it clear that you appreciate your time spent with the initial sifu, and the
*hopefully* valuable material that you have learned.

[David Jamieson]

Great advice....but this isn't actually how it goes.

When people quit a club, they just quit. They don't often say anything to anyone and just stop coming back. At times, they will pop up at other schools.

You might ask "why?".

I personally think it's because most people don't want to deal with the possibility of confrontation an conflict. Many people will just hold to teh idea that if they are quiet enough, no one will notice and everything will blow over. In all areas of their lives.

It's 1 in 100 students who approaches their teacher and says "im leaving, i got better things to do" or "im leaving, period".

all this stuff about asking your sifu this or that is cool, but what your really saying is give yourself the opportuninty to stay.

anyway, people don't want to deal with conflict, so they usually just go away.

[Ray Pina]

I was happy with the S Mantis I was training before I met my internal master, but once I met him I had to study under him.

I told my S Mantis teacher I wanted to pursue this study and he, knowing of my master, said I should. And if I learn anything form him I should learn his sword ... which I haven't yet.

Anyway, I've always respect him for this. Though it was one of the coolest and most sceure things I've ever seen a teacher do.

Also, when I was 12 or 13 and tired of training karate 5 days a week my father threatened to take me out of little league. I counter threatened I'd quite karate instead .... thinking he'd never let me do it because he drove me to class, tournaments, ect for 8 years.

He made me tell my sensei I was quitting, the hardest thing I've ever done.

I went back in college though. I stop by once in a blue moon to say hi, like every 5 years.

[ZhuiQuan]

Is there a certin respect or a right way to stop learning from a sifu if you decide to switch schools or maybe your intrest shift elsewere?

What's right and wrong to someone depends on ones moral standards. But, in consideration for your Shifu and other instructors, I would suggest if someone decides to leave a school, they should tell their Shifu. A lot of people just stop going to classes and get over it. This leaves their Shifu wondering what happened. Talk to him in person, call him, write a letter, an email... anything. Just have the consideration to tell him.

[Banjos_dad]

try not to burn any bridges.

[PangQuan]

for me, my kungfu brothers and my sifu are like my family.

i could not think of leaving without saying something. it would just be wrong, rude, and likely hurtful to those that care.

now if your teacher/training mates are not close to you at all, or what not, i could see ditching out.

for me if i left without saying anything that would be like leaving my loving family without saying anything.

it depends on how integrated your training peers and teacher are into your life.

[Becca]

What's right and wrong to someone depends on ones moral standards. But, in consideration for your Shifu and other instructors, I would suggest if someone decides to leave a school, they should tell their Shifu. A lot of people just stop going to classes and get over it. This leaves their Shifu wondering what happened. Talk to him in person, call him, write a letter, an email... anything. Just have the consideration to tell him.
Nice. It doesn't work this way most of the time, though, either.

I had to take a 6 month break from formal classes last year. I told Sifu, and even paid off the last 2 months of my contract, as I wasn't able to finish it and didn't think it fair to just run out on it.

6 months later, I call up and ask sifu if I can come back to class. He didn't remember me telling him I was quitting...:eek:

He remembered me telling him about my situation and that I'd paid off my contract, but not that I would not be comming back for a long time if ever. I now take it for granted that Sifu listens to nothing I say... :rolleyes:

[neilhytholt]

When people quit a club, they just quit. They don't often say anything to anyone and just stop coming back. At times, they will pop up at other schools.

You might ask "why?".

I've just walked many times but usually it's because I was ****ed off at the teacher, which is why I quit.

Maybe I'm the only one but I've found most martial arts teachers, especially CMA teachers, to be extremely neurotic people who are interested in primarily their egos and their wallets.

So rather than having to argue as to why I'm quitting, "I want to go study another style." Or "You got too greedy and don't train people well anymore." Or "You don't teach your classes anymore because you're a lazy ass."

The first time I confronted my sifu because I had studied for over a year for a belt, totally mastered the material, and he hadn't given it to me.

I got a B.S. answer and he got kindof mad.

So I went to study with his teacher. Turns out that he was trying to teach me 'patience' by holding back the belt. Well I'm sorry but I don't go to a sifu for character training.

Confrontation doesn't always work well. That's why I say if you're on good terms and they're friendly, let them know you're quitting.

Otherwise let them know if you want them to chase you out the door.

Probably easiest just to walk.

[neilhytholt]

Nice. It doesn't work this way most of the time, though, either.

I had to take a 6 month break from formal classes last year. I told Sifu, and even paid off the last 2 months of my contract, as I wasn't able to finish it and didn't think it fair to just run out on it.

6 months later, I call up and ask sifu if I can come back to class. He didn't remember me telling him I was quitting...:eek:

He remembered me telling him about my situation and that I'd paid off my contract, but not that I would not be comming back for a long time if ever. I now take it for granted that Sifu listens to nothing I say... :rolleyes:

Yeah, never sign contracts. Contracts are just evil.

You say your sifu never listens to you? I had one sifu give me a belt, did the test, etc.

Then he 'forgot' I got the belt and had me re-test for it a couple of weeks later...

Sifus can be *******s.

[PangQuan]

There is no one way to handle this. It is wholey dependent on the situation of said person leaving.

all answers are personal.

[Chief Fox]

Nothing can stop kung fu!

[PangQuan]

Nothing can stop kung fu!

best answer!

street cred +45

[SPJ]

I now take it for granted that Sifu listens to nothing I say... :rolleyes:

Usually, there are class pictures taken in the beginning or end; individual or group with the teacher.

Students are identified by year or class numbers.

For example, summer 2006 or class of dog year or class number #.

If you have prepaid classtime, you may always come back to resume. usually, there is a senior student or clerk/janitor/accountant that keeps the book.

Your class time will be honored with "receipt" and attendence log.

There are also class evaluation forms/log etc.

Teachers may not remember everyone. but he or she may look up the class picture/log and evaluation or class log/note etc.

In the end, there is a communication book that has contact info from everyone in the class for future meeting, events etc.

:)

[Ray Pina]

Well I'm sorry but I don't go to a sifu for character training.


Much of what you posted .... that you walked out f*&^cking pi$$ed ... that you were angry because you didn't get the belt you were training for even though you "mastered" the material, etc...... suggests you could have used some of this training.

I find a lot of CMA lacks the fundamental character and discipline training that is a staple of Japanese arts. So much so that I have now incorporated some of these things I learned into teaching my students.

Every class begins and ends with us all bowing (from the sitting/kneeling position) to each other. If you miss class without notice you must do 50 pushups on your nuckles for each class missed before you can enter.

My students have a good level of respect for me and each other, because we all gear up and go through the same thing, we all fight when that time of the training comes around. But I find, especially now in the summer, that they don't have the right respect for their training, their aproach to it. They have a lax attitude to the martial path.

I don't have over head, I don't have many students and I have more confidence in myself so recently it's become my way or the high way.

[neilhytholt]

Much of what you posted .... that you walked out f*&^cking pi$$ed ... that you were angry because you didn't get the belt you were training for even though you "mastered" the material, etc...... suggests you could have used some of this training.

I find a lot of CMA lacks the fundamental character and discipline training that is a staple of Japanese arts. So much so that I have now incorporated some of these things I learned into teaching my students.


I didn't go around picking fights. I went around trying not to get beaten up. I had to avoid people who carried knives.

I did not go to learn character. I went to learn self defense and how to hurt people trying to hurt or kill me.

The fact that he was holding me back was unforgivable. It could have gotten me killed. He was a great guy, but after he read Bruce Lee's books he thought he had to teach us all some sort of philosophy.

So I left him for his teacher, who was a sadistic crazy mofo and a great fighter. I never regretted my decision for a moment. (Although I did miss his sparring nights ... a lot. Ironically, after a few months he came over to do sparring on sparring nights with my new teacher).

[neilhytholt]

Basically what I find is that sifus have huge egos. They think they know the best for the student, and instead of acting like a fighting coach, a lot of the time they try to instill something into the individual.

Well, I'm sorry but only idiots go around picking fights. I never went around picking fights, and I never needed or wanted some teacher to try to instill 'character' into me. I wanted a teacher who could teach me to hurt and kill people in as an effective manner as possible.

Therefore, I've been at odds ever since with most all martial arts teachers because for the most part that's not their goal. They are very unrealistic about life IMHO and attacks on the street.

So anyway, yes I was mad and p*ssed at my teacher because he wouldn't let me continue on. So I left him and went to somebody who would teach me what I wanted to learn.

I don't think that's wrong, do you? Unarmed self defense against armed attackers is hard enough without having some lunk-head trying to hold you back because he thinks you need to learn patience.

(I should also note this was precipitated by 2 people in my class getting into a knife fight against some guys on the street, and one of them getting cut on the back of his leg requiring a cast for almost 9 months). Basically I was p*ssed that my sifu wouldn't teach me elbows and the next form, which was more effective against knife attacks.

[packard]

Some good answers, great topic to post.

I thought may be I would come at this from the teacher’s point of view.

As a teacher of some twenty years, I have seen many people come and go.

It is always nice for people to let you know that they are leaving. For me I always ask why? It’s an opportunity for me to learn about my classes and how I can improve my standard of teaching.

I have come to learn that people move on for many reasons, many of which are out of my or their control - the obvious is house move, job change marriage ect.. In these cases, I am grateful that they have come to me and I have been a part of their life, even for just a short time. In short, I have got as much out of teaching them as they have (hopefully) learnt from me

For those who are genuinely unhappy, I take two approaches to students that leave. I genuinely try to improve what I do, and take the time to examine my teaching style and approach.

However, I have come to learn that I just cannot please all the people all of the time. That's life!

I therefore try to pass them on to another teacher locally who I respect and wish them well.

giving feed back is only useful if you feel your teacher is going to use it I guess.

My bug bear though with students that leave is this. When they have trained for a number of years, and by the nature of the relationship I try to forge with the people I teach, I just think that it’s a shame that they cannot let me know they are leaving.

I have always thought that I am approachable, but may be my lesson is to make sure I am more so. Like any relationship that moves on, normally both people have to take some responsibility as to why it has not worked out.

Any way, just a few points from me that I hope is helpful.

In closing, it takes nothing to say good bye.

Good bye!

[Becca]

Usually, there are class pictures taken in the beginning or end; individual or group with the teacher.

Students are identified by year or class numbers.

For example, summer 2006 or class of dog year or class number #.

If you have prepaid classtime, you may always come back to resume. usually, there is a senior student or clerk/janitor/accountant that keeps the book.

Your class time will be honored with "receipt" and attendence log.

There are also class evaluation forms/log etc.

Teachers may not remember everyone. but he or she may look up the class picture/log and evaluation or class log/note etc.

In the end, there is a communication book that has contact info from everyone in the class for future meeting, events etc.

:)
Nope. He remembered me. I was a student there before he even earned is blackbelt. I suspect he thought he'd talked me out of "leaving"... and was shocked when I came back. Had he actually lisened to me, he'd have known I'd be back when things settled down on the home front. :rolleyes:

But my answer to the original question is: Go in hopping for the best, but understanding that your teacher just ain't going to like it and my be dificult at the very least. Or if you don't like confrontations of any kind, just leave. But honestly. If you have a standing contract, pay it. They can, and often do, sue you over it if you just walk away...

[The Xia]

Departure decorum varies according to situation. Is the Kwoon traditional or commercialized? Was your experience positive or negative? How long did you attend? All things to consider in this circumstance. If the place is a total B.S. scam mcdojo I'd say run and don't look back. If its a traditional Kwoon you are in for a chat. If it is a commercial school that you had a positive experience then you should still say something. As I said before, it varies from situation to situation.

[TenTigers]

"sifus have huge egos. They think they know the best for the student, and instead of acting like a fighting coach, a lot of the time they try to instill something into the individual."

"The first time I confronted my sifu because I had studied for over a year for a belt, totally mastered the material, and he hadn't given it to me."

"So anyway, yes I was mad and p*ssed at my teacher because he wouldn't let me continue on. So I left him and went to somebody who would teach me what I wanted to learn."

"Basically I was p*ssed that my sifu wouldn't teach me elbows and the next form, which was more effective against knife attacks."

Kinda sez it all, don'tcha think?:D

[The Xia]

I agree with neilhytholt that martial arts should be kept...well...martial lol. A good teacher of any martial art must teach the applications of forms, have good sparring, etc. If he doesn't do this then he is creating dancers and not martial artists. In terms of the "character building", its not so much that the teacher should start preaching. "Character building" happens as a result of hard training. The training will make a person more aware, self-disciplined, and the like.

[neilhytholt]

I agree with neilhytholt that martial arts should be kept...well...martial lol. A good teacher of any martial art must teach the applications of forms, have good sparring, etc. If he doesn't do this then he is creating dancers and not martial artists. In terms of the "character building", its not so much that the teacher should start preaching. "Character building" happens as a result of hard training. The training will make a person more aware, self-disciplined, and the like.

You know, I taught a guy a neck break the other day ... I hadn't really thought that I hadn't seen anybody else show that technique in over 20 years of martial arts.

I don't know what martial arts is these days ... I guess it's wushu fancy pants.

[The Xia]

You know, I taught a guy a neck break the other day ... I hadn't really thought that I hadn't seen anybody else show that technique in over 20 years of martial arts.

I don't know what martial arts is these days ... I guess it's wushu fancy pants.

The lowest, worst martial arts seem to fall under three categories.
1) baby-sitting mcdojo - This is the place where soccer moms deposit their kids and glorified gym teachers have them do pushups.
2) "New Age" hippie mcdojo - These places butcher Eastern Philosophy and mix it around with strange stuff to produce individuals that think that their dancing is going to create world peace.
3) The "Super Deadly" mcdojo - These places are run by guys who often claim to be ex-military and say stuff along the lines of "This is the deadliest style ever created! It is used by the special uber-commando division of military intelligence." These places teach B.S. to poor saps that are often genuinely interested in self defense.

This is the bottom of the barrel. But theres stuff in between. Theres commercialized places with legitimate lineages (these vary in quality) and every once in awhile there are traditional places.

[neilhytholt]

The lowest, worst martial arts seem to fall under three categories.
1) baby-sitting mcdojo - This is the place where soccer moms deposit their kids and glorified gym teachers have them do pushups.
2) "New Age" hippie mcdojo - These places butcher Eastern Philosophy and mix it around with strange stuff to produce individuals that think that their dancing is going to create world peace.
3) The "Super Deadly" mcdojo - These places are run by guys who often claim to be ex-military and say stuff along the lines of "This is the deadliest style ever created! It is used by the special uber-commando division of military intelligence." These places teach B.S. to poor saps that are often genuinely interested in self defense.

This is the bottom of the barrel. But theres stuff in between. Theres commercialized places with legitimate lineages (these vary in quality) and every once in awhile there are traditional places.

Yeah, it's hard to believe that martial arts have become so removed from actual fighting. I actually had a talk about it the other day with a kali-jkd guy who has a school, Inosanto stuff. He said basically that he can't teach much hands on stuff or do much sparring because of liability issues.

Kindof sad, really. I guess TenTigers is right. Dojos and kwoons have become more character building centers than anything else. There's actually a big sign for an Aikido place near my house that has a girl with her hands in what looks almost like praying (it's right next to a church ironically, or perhaps purposely), saying something like, "Teach her character and discipline in a fun environment." (I can't remember the exact wording).

Oh, well.

[yutyeesam]

Neil-
I think you already know the truth, and are looking too much outward for the answers you already know. I'm a big believer in, "If no one can do it right, then I'll just do it myself." And I think you are, as well.

I'm just having a hard time understanding what you gain by putting other martial arts and methods down.

You are motivated to post those statements for a particular reason, and I'm just curious to know what that is.
-Are you trying to spark discussion? (you are very successful at it!)
-Are you venting your angst in hopes that someone will listen and start changing things to your liking?

You can complain all you want about the frustration you have with various things, but I'm just wondering where does it take you? Is there something you could have done more productive and positive towards your martial arts training instead of complaining?

My guess is that you enjoy and thrive on getting people riled up. Am I way off base here? If I am, please tell me where. If I am not, then I have to ask: why do you enjoy it?

Honestly trying to understand,
-123

[neilhytholt]

Neil-
I think you already know the truth, and are looking too much outward for the answers you already know. I'm a big believer in, "If no one can do it right, then I'll just do it myself." And I think you are, as well.

I'm just having a hard time understanding what you gain by putting other martial arts and methods down.

You are motivated to post those statements for a particular reason, and I'm just curious to know what that is.
-Are you trying to spark discussion? (you are very successful at it!)
-Are you venting your angst in hopes that someone will listen and start changing things to your liking?

You can complain all you want about the frustration you have with various things, but I'm just wondering where does it take you? Is there something you could have done more productive and positive towards your martial arts training instead of complaining?

My guess is that you enjoy and thrive on getting people riled up. Am I way off base here? If I am, please tell me where. If I am not, then I have to ask: why do you enjoy it?

Honestly trying to understand,
-123

That's funny you should say that because I had the same discussion with a Tai Chi instructor the other day. I was asking him what type of tai chi applications he taught, and we got into a big debate about tai chi.

Basically after much discussion where I dissed everybody from the Yang Family teaching people push-hands for years and those people thinking they would be able to fight or something, and dissed the Chen teachers who don't do any applications at all, he said:

"Wow, I'd never want to put down other martial artists."

And I told him, "Hey ... only people who train to fight are martial artists. I'm only putting down fancy pajama dancing."

We had a laugh over that one.

Edit ...

Basically it seems like you guys are getting upset over words and thinking I'm talking about you, I guess, and not reading the actual arguments or discussion. I don't really get it ...

but I'm guessing like a lot of people these days you're just too busy to deal with discussions in an intelligent manner, and tend to skim over things and then react emotionally.

[neilhytholt]

But basically, yutyeesam, I'm not looking for anything. I was looking for a school that actually taught some decent martial arts or did a lot of applicatons of martial arts or was open.

But really, those types of schools, (I think Chief Fox or somebody used the expression 'worth their salt' -- salt used to be used as money by the Romans, so this expression means worth the money or good), are extremely few and far between these days.

Most everybody running a 'martial arts' school just doesn't do much worthwhile anymore.

I guess that's what you're all getting p*ssed off at is I'm essentially dissing your school. Well, I'm sorry, if that seems to be the case, but yes, if your school isn't 'worth the salt', I am dissing it ... not to be mean, not to say you're bad, but just to say that it's not someplace I'd go to study.

[yutyeesam]

I guess that's what you're all getting p*ssed off at is I'm essentially dissing your school. Well, I'm sorry, if that seems to be the case, but yes, if your school isn't 'worth the salt', I am dissing it ... not to be mean, not to say you're bad, but just to say that it's not someplace I'd go to study.

I get that. But I'm just wondering why you feel the need to tell us.

-123

[neilhytholt]

I get that. But I'm just wondering why you feel the need to tell us.

-123

Because I keep hoping that somebody is going to say, "Here's a cool school somewhere."

But haven't found one yet. Which leads me to believe there aren't any left anymore (which practice what I would call regular fighting techniques, not fancy pants dancing or basic drills), or they're extremely far underground, since I've searched all over.

[yutyeesam]

Because I keep hoping that somebody is going to say, "Here's a cool school somewhere."

But haven't found one yet. Which leads me to believe there aren't any left anymore (which practice what I would call regular fighting techniques, not fancy pants dancing or basic drills), or they're extremely far underground, since I've searched all over.

I see. Thank you for explaining that. The way I see it, at this stage you have two options:

1. Complain about it, and spread negativity

2. Create your own group (at perhaps a health club) and start teaching the way you want to be taught...all with an agenda to create more sparring partners for yourself. "If no one can do it right, then you have to do it yourself."

My master is a full contact fighter and trains full contact fighting champs everyday. He always uses analogies from full contact fighting, even in teaching, leading, selling, etc. The main goal is to win (preferably by knockout!).

If you have a goal to find the school that best suits you, and you can't find it, then guess who loses? You. The other schools could care less if you don't like them. You lost. When you lose, you have those two choices:

1. To complain about what should have been
2. To turn your loss into a win, by creating your own victory.

So Neil, can you turn your situation around, and be the example that you were looking for in others? Can you start a martial arts org in your area and be the very thing nobody else is being? I'm not saying make a full blown school, I'm just saying start a small group in a health club, and train folks to be able to trade hands with you.

I'm very proactive minded. I take action on making changes and filling what I percieve to be as voids. And I encourage you to do the same. You'll be a lot happier that way.

Good luck, I hope any of this was encouraging. I'd personally love to hear your stories of starting a club and start doing things the way you want things done, things that other schools aren't doing. You may do things that open our eyes up!

-123

[neilhytholt]

No, what became fairly obvious the other day when I was showing the guy how to break somebody's neck in an expedient manner, is that most people probably shouldn't be learning a technique like that. :)

So what I've done is to enroll in karate where the sensei is pretty open. I never thought I'd take karate again, but he's going to let me teach some seminars and at least then I'll be able to practice some fairly realistic techniques there.

You just think I'm complaining but you just think it's a complaint because you take it personally. You don't try to understand the context behind it. You don't try to argue.

You react with your ego and don't try to understand.

Once again, not criticizing, just stating the obvious. :)

[neilhytholt]

You know, I also found a very effective means the past few months of losing weight, and the reason that people in the U.S. are hungry all the time and so fat.

It's a very simple thing ... so simple they used to have public service commercials in the 1970s on T.V. about it in the U.S.

But nobody really wants to know. If it's simple it must not work, right? If you're not a doctor of nutrition, it must not work, right? LOL

[yutyeesam]

Honestly, I don't read all your posts, so I don't know what you've been up to. I spend most of my time in the Southern Forums.

I think it's great that you found your niche.

I just notice a lot of hostility towards you from the Chinese martial arts community, and I wanted to try to understand it, which is why I bothered responding at all.



You just think I'm complaining but you just think it's a complaint because you take it personally. You don't try to understand the context behind it. You don't try to argue.

I responded to you because I was trying to understand. Perhaps you feel differently.



You react with your ego and don't try to understand.

Perhaps you forgot, Neil but I said:


Honestly trying to understand,
123

OK Neil. I'm glad you found your school of choice. Obviously no one can stop you from expressing your opinions, so fire away.

Take care,
123

[Ray Pina]

Basically what I find is that sifus have huge egos. They think they know the best for the student, and instead of acting like a fighting coach, a lot of the time they try to instill something into the individual.


Master's 65 years old. He survived Japan's invasion. Walked and snuck into Hong Kong with little food, saw others literally starve to death. Came to America with nothing, having been an aeronotical engineer in China. Started up again. Eventually went into business for himself becoming a millionare when being a millionare meant something. Gave a lot of it away to help someone. Invested a large sum of money to study violen apraisal and repair in the faith that his older teacher told him he'd make it back with one violen, not long after out bid someone on a violen worth nearly $250,000 because he recognized the value .... lot's of stories like that.

I have, and certainly will learn many things from this man. One of those is how to build myself up internaly so I can fight. That one has transformed me to where at first I felt confident to fight, then where I felt confident to speak my mind and ultimately be my true self without any edditing for others.

This in the end has allowed me to keep my mouth shut. Especially when my girl gets a little agressive in speach, I don't have to defend my ego. I know I'm tough, I don't have to prove it to a girl..... this in the end has lead to a lot more pu$$y:)

[Ray Pina]

PS

Now that you have changed sifus, and are no longer studying with a "lunk head" .... how confident are you to handle an armed attacker when you yourself are weaponless?

Do you now feel safe dealing with someone swinging a knife or ax? Do you feel you have H2H skills that can compare today with the serious practioner of Thai Boxing or MMA?

[Ray Pina]

I agree with neilhytholt that martial arts should be kept...well...martial lol. A good teacher of any martial art must teach the applications of forms, have good sparring, etc. If he doesn't do this then he is creating dancers and not martial artists.

Believe me I agree with you, martial should be martial. But with that said, good soup takes time to cook. You can't just turn up the flame or nuke it and expect it to compare to a soup that's been slowly simmering and having ingredients added little by little.

In the beginning the teacher should be building you up physically and giving you ability .... tied to this is a basic understanding of how the system works, it's principles.

Later, if someone has a gun, a clip and bullets. It's very easy to show him how they all go together to be quite dangerous.

Sort of like, every knows how to buy. The question is, do you have the money?

The first few years the teacher should be building up your bank and seeing if you have the right character to be given a gun.

[Ray Pina]

Yeah, it's hard to believe that martial arts have become so removed from actual fighting.

You, your teacher or any one of your students can enter into any number of full contact Kick boxing, San Da, Thai Boxing or mixed martial arts event within two weeks of committing to want to do that. It's there anytime. There are a number of underground venues in which you can fight with no gear or no rules.

I agree with you that martial arts have to remain martial, but you have to also ask yourself what are you doing to correct that? Have you or are you presently fighting in anything like this?

It's one thing to point out the problem and teach from above, it's another to step down and adress it.

Playing devil's advocate, you say you are teaching neck breaks .... have you broken someone's neck before?

Now, I don't believe you have to break someone's arm or neck to see that a certain technique can do it. Likewise, how about those teacher's you said "never have been in a street fight." Maybe they had something?

But, more importantly than teaching neck breaks is are you and your students proprly equiped to put yourself in that position against a skilled, resisting apoinant? Which brings me back to the first question: are you fighting in any of the available avenues today?

[SimonM]

Great advice....but this isn't actually how it goes.


I've done this once.

When I left Northern Black Dragon to come to China I told my Sifu (and most of my classmates) months in advance. I have the deepest respect for Master Chau and if I were in London and taking Gong Fu classes I wouldn't ever consider going anywhere else. However I couldn't take the kwoon with me to China.

If I'm ever living in London for an extended period again I will resume my study there so I really didn't want to burn any bridges, eh.

[neilhytholt]

You, your teacher or any one of your students can enter into any number of full contact Kick boxing, San Da, Thai Boxing or mixed martial arts event within two weeks of committing to want to do that. It's there anytime. There are a number of underground venues in which you can fight with no gear or no rules.

I agree with you that martial arts have to remain martial, but you have to also ask yourself what are you doing to correct that? Have you or are you presently fighting in anything like this?

It's one thing to point out the problem and teach from above, it's another to step down and adress it.

Playing devil's advocate, you say you are teaching neck breaks .... have you broken someone's neck before?

Now, I don't believe you have to break someone's arm or neck to see that a certain technique can do it. Likewise, how about those teacher's you said "never have been in a street fight." Maybe they had something?

But, more importantly than teaching neck breaks is are you and your students proprly equiped to put yourself in that position against a skilled, resisting apoinant? Which brings me back to the first question: are you fighting in any of the available avenues today?

None of those venues use more than sport techniques.

As for the neck thing, no, I have never broken anybody's neck. I was just showing him the technique as it was shown to me. But the technique is not just for breaking somebody's neck -- it's also for taking somebody trying to shoot in on you down and incapacitating them ... and I have used the incapacitating part in a real fight against a resisting opponent (not in the ring) and it works well. Of course it was just a meat-head surfer dude, but he was surprised when he tried to beat up somebody who was 100 lbs. less than he was and found himself eating sand and unable to get up.

It's not my job to correct the current state of martial arts. It is that way for a reason, evidently, because of liability. I had no idea of that until I talked to the JKD/FMA dude.

I am going to be giving seminars in a local karate school in traditional waza and bunkai. But I'm not going to be teaching that technique anymore, except maybe to my kids when they're older.

[neilhytholt]

PS

Now that you have changed sifus, and are no longer studying with a "lunk head" .... how confident are you to handle an armed attacker when you yourself are weaponless?

Do you now feel safe dealing with someone swinging a knife or ax? Do you feel you have H2H skills that can compare today with the serious practioner of Thai Boxing or MMA?

To be quite honest IMHO I am not nearly as trained or conditioned as the average Thai boxing person or MMA person. That trains for fights, I mean, they train like 5 hours a day right?

However, in terms of dealing with a knife, axe, etc., I think that they wouldn't stand a chance compared to someone who was trained for dealing with weapons like my first 2 sifus taught.

[Ray Pina]

None of those venues use more than sport techniques.



You'd be surprised at how difficult it is to stop "a sport fighters" simple punching and kicking. You're talking about someone who has made a comitment to eat right, set aside huge amounts of time to train and then put their health on the line to compete. They are dealing with levels of agression you won't find anywhere else except in a true street fight, someone who's not trying to "win," but seriously hurt you ..... only differences is the "sport fighter" is better trained, more economic in his movements, sober and experienced.

To say you have no interest in this sort of thing because you're scared of getting hurt is honest. To say you have no interest in this sort of thing because a few angles of your game will be taken away is a lie..... your character certainly reveals you'd be more than willing to down someone to boost yourself up .... if you could.

All "sport fighters" make compromises. If someone realy attacked me unprovoked, not talking shoving and pu$$y-footing, I'd use a weapon. In the ring or cage EVERYONE agrees not to use certain tools. Do you think you're the only one that has these tools? You alone, the lonewolf school hopper and keeper of all martial truths on the internet have the dangerous techniques, but a pro fighter with decades of training who has saught out the best, regularly compares with the best, only has jab/hook/upper cut to count on?

Get over yourself. Do something. Than talk....... I say this because I used to think like you, used to think I had great skills. What I had was exposure to great technique. That's one thing. Honing it into a sharp, dangerous razor blade is enother.

To do what I want to do I've given up pot, I've long given up drinking, given up fast food and soda, given up pretty much all of my free time. I train 6 days a week now ..... and I still haven't done anything worth bragging about. The road is long.

[David Jamieson]

Why not get into mma ray?
Seems like that is what you want to do.
Couldn't hurt to try.

Kick it up a notch from mat time with...well what appears to be people who don't fight train realistically speaking by the looks of things.

just saying.

[neilhytholt]

You'd be surprised at how difficult it is to stop "a sport fighters" simple punching and kicking. You're talking about someone who has made a comitment to eat right, set aside huge amounts of time to train and then put their health on the line to compete. They are dealing with levels of agression you won't find anywhere else except in a true street fight, someone who's not trying to "win," but seriously hurt you ..... only differences is the "sport fighter" is better trained, more economic in his movements, sober and experienced.

To say you have no interest in this sort of thing because you're scared of getting hurt is honest. To say you have no interest in this sort of thing because a few angles of your game will be taken away is a lie..... your character certainly reveals you'd be more than willing to down someone to boost yourself up .... if you could.

All "sport fighters" make compromises. If someone realy attacked me unprovoked, not talking shoving and pu$$y-footing, I'd use a weapon. In the ring or cage EVERYONE agrees not to use certain tools. Do you think you're the only one that has these tools? You alone, the lonewolf school hopper and keeper of all martial truths on the internet have the dangerous techniques, but a pro fighter with decades of training who has saught out the best, regularly compares with the best, only has jab/hook/upper cut to count on?

Get over yourself. Do something. Than talk....... I say this because I used to think like you, used to think I had great skills. What I had was exposure to great technique. That's one thing. Honing it into a sharp, dangerous razor blade is enother.

To do what I want to do I've given up pot, I've long given up drinking, given up fast food and soda, given up pretty much all of my free time. I train 6 days a week now ..... and I still haven't done anything worth bragging about. The road is long.

I'm not afraid of getting hurt, really, I just don't have time to train like that. Of course, I have 2 mouths to feed, so I don't really want to get beat up just to do sport fighting either, as that would take a lot of explaining.

But what they do doesn't really interest me. They use very basic techniques. I'm not saying they aren't good at them but I wouldn't waste a lot of time on that stuff.

I'm not saying I have great skills. I've gone to meet those guys, real UFC fighters, to see what they're made of, in person. Yes, they can most likely kick my ass. But that's because they put in so much time training, not because their techniques are anything worth talking about.

[SimonM]

Neil there is a reason why basics are called "bread and butter" techniques.

"Basic" techniques tend to be the most effective and the easiest to successfully execute.

You don't get points in a street fight. Even in a ring fight the points aren't awarded for style so rather than seeking t3h 1egend4ry dim m4k why don't you just find a gym with a good regemen in basic training?

[Golden Arms]

Once again I find myself wondering why anyone is even bothering to answer Neil back after months of the same basic posts. Neil, explain to me how you "master" material in one year. :rolleyes: