Fact or Fiction? Is it achievable thru Tai Chi training?

[imperialtaichi]

I copied this from wikepeadia:

Munenori in Fiction and Legend

Like his father, and his son Jubei, Munenori has achieved a degree of legendary status. A number of exaggerated tales and abilities have been attributed to him.

One of the most often repeated is the tale of his amazing sense of danger approaching. He was meditating in his garden facing away from the door when his assistant brought him his sword silently and without any declarations. His assistant, being a young and imaginative sort of person, thought to himself how it would be interesting to see if he could attack Munenori from this position. Before he could act on the fantasy, Munenori leapt to his feet and turned around, stunned to discover only his assistant was behind him. He was sure there was some impending danger.

Later on he was still troubled by the event. How could he have mistaken his assistant for impending danger? Was he losing his edge? He spoke of the incident to one of his trusted advisors while his assistant was in the room, and, being a virtuous youth, his assistant admitted that he had "thought" about attacking him earlier, but made no physical movements in accordance with the attack. Therefore, Munenori concluded that he was not in fact losing his edge but had actually achieved a new level of swordsmanship, one where a man can anticipate impending danger even when people are thinking about it.

Do you think it can be systematically developed thru internal training?

Cheers,
John

[scholar]

I think such sensitivity can be developed, perhaps by one in a million people, if even that. IME being able to discern the internal states of other human beings is a natural thing, not "psychic" per se, but a more fundamental wiring, like the species-specific wiring that allows a school of fish or a flight of birds to all change direction simultaneously.

[_William_]

You've got mail. :)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is ALL achievable.. according to the degree you actually belive it is.. but, it's one thing to SAY you believe it, quite another to actually believe..

When you understand the Quantum Field, the Zero Point Field, and energetic coherence.. you see how achievable anything is.. Yet, we are infants on this journey, only a nano-percentage of the population has the faith to reap the rewards..

Be well..

[dleungnyc]

I think this is an ability that's very hard to train for in modern days. Except maybe for those that are on active law enforcement/military duties.

We DO see this type of behavior/ability in the animal kingdom though. Have you ever try to sneak up on a cat or dog or any bird for that matter?

[Scott R. Brown]

One thing not mentioned in the story is that the style of swordsmanship practiced by the Yagyu, “Shinkage-ryu”, was essentially an internal form of swordsmanship. By saying this I mean that it is primarily mental and secondarily physical. The son of Munenori, Mitsuyoshi wrote this about the style:

”The sword of the Shinkage School is not a Yang blade, but a Yin (kage) blade; it does not employ any posture, its posture being posturelessness. The position of the Shinkage School is to do things in response to the opponent’s moves. It is a school that aims not to slash, not to take, not to win, not to lose.”

Some of the noteworthy sayings of Muneyoshi, Munenori's father include:

In swordsmanship, always train and discipline yourself,
But don’t show it-hide it, be modest about it.

If your mind reaches the ultimate in swordsmanship,
the sword and other implements will have no place.

The Yagyu were noteworthy for besting swordsmen in duels using “muto” that is “no sword” technique. At times they would essentially fight without a sword and disarm their opponent to defeat them.

Munenori was quite good friends with a noted Zen master named Takuan Soho. Takuan was also a good friend of Miyamoto Musashi. There are elements of Zen in the training of Shinkage-ryu.

The story mentioned above is an illustration of intuition, that is all. It is not an unusual story if one is familiar with stories of Zen masters. It is rather common amongst Zen masters to acquire such abilities. This intuitive ability is not dependent upon physical training of any kind; it is a condition of mind. It is an ability that occurs naturally, of itself (tzu-jan), when one achieves insight into the essence of mind, the state of “no-mind”, which is the purpose of Zen.

Both Munenori and Musashi applied Zen principles to their swordsmanship and integrated Zen methods of training the mind with the fundamentals of swordsmanship. That is, in an attempt to delve into the depths of swordsmanship they discovered that all physical forms are nothing but expressions of the mind. To attain the highest level of form one must understand the essence of mind. To both men mental training became the essence of swordsmanship. Eventually, to each, swordsmanship merely represented the “useful expedient” utilized to attain realization. As a consequence, they were both essentially undefeatable in swordsmanship!

“To master oneself, is to be master of all things!”

[JohnnyMnemonic]

I think such sensitivity can be developed, perhaps by one in a million people, if even that. IME being able to discern the internal states of other human beings is a natural thing, not "psychic" per se, but a more fundamental wiring, like the species-specific wiring that allows a school of fish or a flight of birds to all change direction simultaneously.

I disagree. It can be developed by anyone who puts in the time.

I can sense people a block or two away who are focusing on me on occasion. I am not a kung fu expert. Just some guy who has been practicing for years.

The other day some guy at the store was homing in on me. I turned around and faced him about 5 seconds before he actually got to where I was. I could feel something homing in on me.

If you look into this kind of stuff, you will find that the people who develop these abilities are usually hermits. Or they live a hermit like life. They are so used to just their energy that when the energy of another human being enters their vicinity they can pick it up. They are used to absolutley nothing being their.

So if you really want the ability, living a hermit like life won't hurt.

[Scott R. Brown]

I disagree. It can be developed by anyone who puts in the time.

I can sense people a block or two away who are focusing on me on occasion. I am not a kung fu expert. Just some guy who has been practicing for years.

The other day some guy at the store was homing in on me. I turned around and faced him about 5 seconds before he actually got to where I was. I could feel something homing in on me.

If you look into this kind of stuff, you will find that the people who develop these abilities are usually hermits. Or they live a hermit like life. They are so used to just their energy that when the energy of another human being enters their vicinity they can pick it up. They are used to absolutley nothing being their.

So if you really want the ability, living a hermit like life won't hurt.

I agree that is can be acquired by anyone who puts in the time and, as with all things, some people with have a greater aptitude than others. However, I disagree that it is necessary to live like a hermit. The Yagyu were active participants in the government of the Tokugawa. As a consequence they were bound by many official superfluous duties and meaningless, but required details and ceremony. One could argue they were blessed with an aptitude and this may be so, but it is not required to be a hermit.

It does require a transcendence of, or regularly scheduled withdrawal from, the world system. This ability is a quality of mind and therefore the mind must have periods of reduced distraction in order to be conditioned or actually uncondition.

[DarinHamel]

Yep, I agree with all of the above. Notice he was meditating, which is most likely how he developed the sensitivity.

I've just begun making a study of THE UNFETTERED MIND bu Takuan Soho. This is my first foray into sword fighting theory and Japanese Zen. Thick stuff.

[imperialtaichi]

I've just begun making a study of THE UNFETTERED MIND bu Takuan Soho. This is my first foray into sword fighting theory and Japanese Zen.



More than just sword fighting. Really good stuff. Enjoy!

Cheers,
John

[Repulsive Monkey]

As mentioned a few posts ago, yes of course this can be developed by anybody who is willing to train the appropriate amount of time and effort required to acheive this.

It is a real quality!
People have this acheivement today.

[cjurakpt]

one day I had dinner at my sifu's home; afterwards, my older training sister and I were bringing the dishes to the sink, where we seperated them, putting the plates and utensils into a plastic basin to pre-soak before washing, and the larger pots, etc. into the sink; right when I started to put a sharp bread knife into the plastic basin, sifu, says, in a real calm, almost detached voice, "Dan Yang, don't put that knife in the basin - clean it and put it away."

no big deal, except: he was sitting at the other end of the kitchen about 15' away, and I had my back to him, and from where he was sitting, there was no way he saw what I was doing in front of me; also, the basin was in the sink, so he couldn't have seen what I was sorting unles she'd been standing right behind me; and my training sister was behind me, obstructing his line of sight as well - from the look on her face when he said that, I knew that she knew there was no way he could have seen me either; also, he's near-sighted, so anything more than a few feet away is blurry; and it was noisy, since his wife and three daughters were also in the kitchen talking...

[fiercest tiger]

I was sitting at a red light waiting for the light to turn green in my car, It turned green and i usually take off, when something inside me said dont go yet just sit there. I did that and the cars behind quickly reminded me to go which i didnt then a car went through a red light that would have taken me right out on my side of the car. It was freaky and i just new something was wrong!!!

[Nexus]

The quality your sifu expressed here is no different from someone who has years of experience in a kitchen and when cooking with them intuitively has sensitivity for things going on. They often have made mistakes if you'll cal lthem that, or seen similar things before, and their intuition kicks in and they make sure you don't do wrongly. It's simply intuition, both inherent and developed through experience.



one day I had dinner at my sifu's home; afterwards, my older training sister and I were bringing the dishes to the sink, where we seperated them, putting the plates and utensils into a plastic basin to pre-soak before washing, and the larger pots, etc. into the sink; right when I started to put a sharp bread knife into the plastic basin, sifu, says, in a real calm, almost detached voice, "Dan Yang, don't put that knife in the basin - clean it and put it away."

no big deal, except: he was sitting at the other end of the kitchen about 15' away, and I had my back to him, and from where he was sitting, there was no way he saw what I was doing in front of me; also, the basin was in the sink, so he couldn't have seen what I was sorting unles she'd been standing right behind me; and my training sister was behind me, obstructing his line of sight as well - from the look on her face when he said that, I knew that she knew there was no way he could have seen me either; also, he's near-sighted, so anything more than a few feet away is blurry; and it was noisy, since his wife and three daughters were also in the kitchen talking...

[RonH]

I'm naturally empathic, but with how I grew up, I had to repress pretty much all of the ability and mostly forgot about it. I "unrepressed" it a few years ago, since I was able to handle it better. So, yeah, it can be confusing at times, if you aren't used to it and don't understand how to deal with it and protect yourself.

But, if you want to develop it, look towards mysticism for additional teachings for your Tai Chi, but to start off, there's a really simple exercise to do.

Just as you would direct chi through your body for any number of things, from chi kung to a basic flushing of your system, you need to put energy into the idea that you can do this skill, that you have this ability right now. Not that your ability is growing in it. That may seem like the easier path, but it screws you up in the end. You need to put energy into the end result, which is that you can pick up on emotions. Just as a college student psyches themselves up, while they're studying for a test, by saying 'I know this stuff, I can do this stuff', you need to do that, too, for this situation.

You need to have such a strong first person visualization, just like is taught in most fighting systems when just visualizing a fight, either with movements for practice by yourself or without moving at all and it's more a meditation exercise.

You image that you can mentally pick up on emotions, but that they won't control you. If you decide not to learn any shielding work, it's best to have a strong sense in the present that you can be aware of emotions, but that you don't take on those emotions, so you are subject to the whims of the emotions of others. That's a real problem. It'll just be info that pops into your head.

[Faruq]

...This intuitive ability is not dependent upon physical training of any kind; it is a condition of mind. It is an ability that occurs naturally, of itself (tzu-jan), when one achieves insight into the essence of mind, the state of “no-mind”, which is the purpose of Zen.

Both Munenori and Musashi applied Zen principles to their swordsmanship and integrated Zen methods of training the mind with the fundamentals of swordsmanship...To attain the highest level of form one must understand the essence of mind. To both men mental training became the essence of swordsmanship. Eventually, to each, swordsmanship merely represented the “useful expedient” utilized to attain realization. As a consequence, they were both essentially undefeatable in swordsmanship!

“To master oneself, is to be master of all things!”

I remember an article from the very magazine that provides this forum, on Buddhism, that said the exact same thing about gong fu having been merely the expedient for attaining enlightenment. I hope I didn't mess it up.

Here's the link and the paragraph I was talking about:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=626

"Martial Arts as a Vehicle to Self-Development
Virtually every country (Buddhist or otherwise) in the far-east has an aspect of its culture that extols martial endeavour – in both theory and in practice. China, with its many systems of internal and external kung fu; Japan, with its 'Budo' (i.e. 'Martial Way') arts; Okinawa, with its various forms of 'Te'; Korea with its famous (and relatively modern) Tae Kwon Do, as well its more ancient arts (for example, Muksodo and Tangsodo, etc); Vietnam, with its Vietvodo; Thailand, with its various forms of Muay Thai; Sri Lanka, with its Tamil arts (also practiced in southern India and called 'Kalaripayit'); and a number of other countries including Tibet, Indonesia, Laos and Cambodia. From this brief and incomplete survey, a pattern emerges of a close association between spiritual development and martial art practice. This is not surprising, as the Lord Buddha, living around 500 BCE in north India, was of the 'Kshatriya' (or 'Warrior and King) caste of Hindu society. Such a caste prepared their young men for both action on the battlefield and enlightened leadership upon the country's throne. The Buddha (Siddharta Gautama) was no exception to this rule. The Buddhist scriptures tell us how He was trained in Hindu philosophy, Yoga and martial arts. Hindu society, like its Chinese counterpart, had always acknowledged the link between psycho-spiritual development and that of physical development – but more than this, it was also acknowledged that at the highest levels, the distinction between the 'psychological' and the 'physical' falls away, to reveal a clear, pristine Mind that embraces the universe, within which all things manifest – including our own physical bodies. This philosophical concept of 'oneness' is further emphasised by the fact that just 'silent sitting' in meditation was not enough to transcend the suffering of life on the physical plane. Simply ignoring the 'physical' world does not make it 'go away.' Practicing the in-depth and diverse movements of the many styles of martial art – with a concentrated and developed mind (acquired through seated meditation) creates the perfect balance of 'mind' and 'body.' For when the physical body is aligned, and that body is merged with the 'One Mind,' universal energy flows and there is nothing that can not be achieved. If the Mind is enlightened through seated meditation, that is its essence; when the Mind moves the body on the physical plane, that is its function. All things accord, and there is peace..."