(Unarmed) Grappling Vs. Knife

[WinterPalm]

These pics are the result of an attempt by a grappling trained police officer to deal with an assailant armed with a knife. They are quite graphic.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l278/Winterpalm/knife2.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l278/Winterpalm/knife3.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l278/Winterpalm/knife1.jpg


Obviously submission, regardless of method, is the ideal place to put an attacker who has a knife. This can be done via strikes or chokes, locks, holds, etc.

Intercepting an attack can provide split seconds to either fully engage in a grappling counter, or a striking counter.

A striking counter can attack weak, soft structures such as the eyes, the throat, back of the head. (And yes, if people can spend hours perfecting anything, they too can get pin point accuracy using simple training methods: non-rhythmic focus pads, a ball on a string, a double end boxing bag, etc). Once eyesight or breathing are deeply disrupted, control and restraint can be exercised.

A grappling counter can restrain the knife hand and move through to various limb and neck holds including full out takedown. Once control is obtained, striking can commence. One could suggest that within striking range is within stabbing range and grappling range...

The structures of weakness cannot be trained to withstand blunt trauma and force...Can one continue to fight while blind? While unable to breathe?
The relative leverage and strength of a man can be beyond what appearances suggest as well as the factor drugs can play in enhancing strength: ie cocaine, speed, PCP, etc.

What is your line of defense? Level of preperation? Perceived opinions on this topic? Disputes to the outline above? How does this relate to the responsibility of a police officer (To use restraint and submission) versus that of a citizen (Not in the public eye under scrutiny of ethic committees, and less likely to find criticism for using foul tactics)?
Is a combination of the two ideal? Or does one approach favour your style and personal attributes?
Does your art deal with interception using forearm strikes, restraints? Obviously weaving, ducking, movement play a huge factor...but covering up does not.

[PlumDragon]

In a multiple attacker scenario, of course, this type of thing is excusable and probably unavoidable but in a single attacker scenario the cop should be trained to better handle this.
And when is the last time youve played with a chalked, electrified, or live blade? On the mat?

In sparring, it doesnt take much to get cut; it takes less in a real altercation...

[SevenStar]

just as they make bulletproof vests, they also make cut and stab resistant varieties. IMO, all cops should have one at all times.

[Asia]

Was this guy off duty? How did the knife get past his BP vest? Those cuts are too deep to have gone throw a vest.

Need more info on this situation.

I got mugged in Miami several years ago and was knifed but grappling actually saved me form further damage. Trying to strike a knife weilder is an easy way of getting your arms and legs sliced up but with luck getting in to control the arm, disarm (hopefully) and get the hell out of dodge.

[Knifefighter]

Interesting topic...

I'll be back...

[WinterPalm]

Was this guy off duty? How did the knife get past his BP vest? Those cuts are too deep to have gone throw a vest.

Need more info on this situation.

I got mugged in Miami several years ago and was knifed but grappling actually saved me form further damage. Trying to strike a knife weilder is an easy way of getting your arms and legs sliced up but with luck getting in to control the arm, disarm (hopefully) and get the hell out of dodge.


I'll try to get more information. These photos were send to my Sifu who works in the justice department via a police officer he is in frequent contact with.

I agree that striking can get you cut on the arm...how does any such wrestling technique stand up to that? Get a partner and try any such takedown, submission, or takedown... if they can touch you with even just one hand...that is a knife.

The reality of it is that incapacitating someone via strikes in a situation such as one like this is your best preperation. Control the position, use angles, utilize pin-point striking, subdue the arm...quick reflexes, agility, timing, strong lower arm abilities...these are all essential in control and submission.

I won't doubt the knife fighting abilities of FMA...but how advanced is their open hand defense? Kung Fu specializes in defense almost by definition by virtue of its buddhist/taoist origins.

I'm not sure if he was wearing a BP vest. Point is, he was well-trained in grappling and it did not stand up to the attack. Not saying that there is no ability in grappling, but people promote it in such a fervor that examples like this offer a stark contrast to the supremacy of wrestling/grappling.

[David Jamieson]

Those pics come from this video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853

I don't know if they're cops or not. THey came out of a video presentation (as linked) and in that video there is no indication of who these victims are. I think the confusion comes from the content of the video which has at the beginning information about a seminar given to some LEO's and how the percentages were very low in them realizing what was going on when a knife was introduced without their prior knowledge.

the actual photos are from a hospital somewhere I would guess, but in all honesty, I personally don't think they are cops for the reasons mentioned IE: there aren't many cops out there that aren't wearing pounds on the street.

[David Jamieson]

p.s Unarmed vs a knife = a very good chance you will be cut. Against an experienced knife handler, for sure you will get cut. Regardless of whatever it is you train.

[Knifefighter]

The reality of it is that incapacitating someone via strikes in a situation such as one like this is your best preperation. Control the position, use angles, utilize pin-point striking, subdue the arm...quick reflexes, agility, timing, strong lower arm abilities...these are all essential in control and submission.
LOL... someone is brainwashed... and hasn't trained realistically against a blade.


Point is, he was well-trained in grappling and it did not stand up to the attack.
LOL @ this being a "grappler". There is no evidence one way or the other that he was either a striker or grappler.

[Knifefighter]

Assuming those are real and not Romoshopped....
If that guy was a cop, he sure wasn’t wearing a vest. I’m guessing he might not have even been wearing a shirt, because it is hard to get those kinds of slashes through clothing.

As far as grappling unarmed vs. knife, probably not something you want to do if you have full options. However, one doesn’t always have full options.

Ideally, one has seen the blade beforehand and has time to make space, use barriers, draw ones own weapon and/or grab an improvised one. Trying to strike empty-handed against a blade is just as stupid as trying to grapple.

It is not really true that a trained guy will not let you see the blade. He will if he is confident in his abilities, but really doesn’t’ want to fight. It’s the guy who wants to kill you, trained or otherwise, who will attack and conceal the blade.

Close quarter attacks where the knife is not seen until the last minute, or not seen at all, are the most deadly and the ones that end up in grappling situations. Once grappling range is reached, probably the most important consideration is to control the knife hand. Trained guys are good a switching to the other hand, and it is important to know how not let the opponent do this.

Since standing grappling gives relatively little control over the opponent, if an immediate disarm cannot be done, it can be advantageous to take the opponent down to the ground (still controlling the knife) where positional control and dominance can be used to more effectively achieve a disarm. With good ground control positioning achieved, the opponent will be completely helpless once the disarm is achieved.

[David Jamieson]

there's plenty of drills.

I agree with KF. Contain the knife arm, take the weilder down and break his structure while doing it and keep that knife arm locked up tight until you can go for a disarm.

One of the drills (because there are many) that I've taken part in was called x cuts. where x = a number chosen beforehand as to how many times the attacker has to hit you with the knife before the drill ends.

drills ends when you end the assault or the attacker has made all the hits with the blade.

our number was 30. 9 out of 10 guys when doing this drill got hit 30 times.

techs that worked. underhook, pull the assailant in and down, then look for a disarm technique, focus on the blade arm don't worry about getting punched and watch that other hand when you can.

forward push kicks in a relentless fashion has some good effect too.

and ultimately, escape was the most successful technique.

Anyway, I live in Toronto, so my problem would be more along the lines of stray bullets from handguns popping me. lol. *knock on wood* :p
I would think that the same would hold true in most large urban areas.

[The Willow Sword]

Great Video. Hopefully it will put some reality in the minds of those who think that they have it down with respect to defending against a knife. even an inexperienced knife weilder can seriously hurt you and even kill you.

Best defense against a knife is distance and a longer weapon(at least you have a chance when you have a longer weapon like a baton (hehe or a longer knife) lets not forget our friendly firearm. but as the vid shows the closer you are to the attacker the less likely you will be able to draw point and shoot without getting fileted.

Hope NONE gets cut like that guy did in those pictures. Hey im gonna go watch "The Hunted" again. i love that movie.

Tommy Lee Jones is the shiznit:cool:
TWS

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Assuming those are real and not Romoshopped....


they're real as far as i know .... there was a thread on ogrish a while back about them and if i remember right the guy was a prisoner and not a cop or guard. i could be wrong though .... let me see what i can dig up.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/deep_lacerations_from_razor_attack_Feb_24_2006.htm l


interesting take on the photos ...

Originally Posted by Naughty Kangaroo
Accord to what I heard on this forum, if this is a prison fight result. The person was attacked with something handheld. So it can't be a machete. If it was a machete, his back cut won't be all curvy.

So it must be a really sharp shiv or something similar held in ice pick manner. I am prett SURE that his chest was attack first because many people would lay down and cover when scared. So it's likely someone righty was the attacker. You notice that the stabbing point is thicker then as the person slice and pull the knife out, the cut get thinner.

So if my theory is corect.

The victim would get cut across chest first. Then he would try to turn to run but get cut on side. Then the victim would probably lay down to try cover himself up. The attacker would be standing at victim's head and make a deep cut from below shoulder blade to upper back then cut upperback twice before running away.

I am SURE the victim was face down during the knife attack because how could he have recieved the large one on back then two more on upperback if he wasn't face down?

thread about it: http://forum.ogrish.com/showthread.php?t=94662&highlight=knife

[hung-le]

Willowsword basically stole my thunder…



As some of you know a train a lot with the blade...have been for about twenty years.....
Fending off an attack by an experienced knife fighter is really **** near impossible… At practice, I haven’t seen anyone who could easily grapple and submit an experience knife fighter…even if you do ..it is really hard not to get killed in the process… … And always…in a knife fight ,armed or unarmed “You will get stabbed! It’s going to happen! …But you must be the one to decide where…if it’s up to the attacker,,,, you are dead…

If you don’t act he’s just going to carve you up This will take about a split second for him to do this (so its not like you got time to plan out your defense…)… Hell, some good knife fighters won’t wait to soften up the target… They’ll come in attacking with two feet kicking and punching…stabbing and cutting to the vital areas

Personally, I’ve never experienced a knife attack (I fended of a mugger once but that is a different story) I have a friend who has witnessed a knife attack …it resulted in a fatality. The knife attack came out of the blue. Guy “A” basically walked up to Guy B in a club (Guy “B” who was unaware was distracted) Guy “A” pulled the knife and began to stab… reality is ....when attacked with a weapon you usually never see it comming..... (he lives in Detroit near 8 mile if you’re wondering..)

It’s been my experience and the experience of others that I hang with to say… the proximity dictates the proper action.

If one is in close, I can’t think of a better art than a grappling art You have to control the knife! However if there is space between you and the person wielding the knife (if he knows what he’s doing…you using a bridging technique to get close will usually get you killed…best to keep space in between you and him, through effective space, you are controlling the knife…that is the best defense….

Usually this is done with unorthodox techniques (such as backing up to a wall and kicking like mad…sliding down the wall till you are on the floor…the wall will cut down some of the attack angles and the fact that the aggressor has to bend over to get at you puts him in range of your feet which can take a lot of punishment …yes...this is unorthodox. but so is a lot of practical unarmed knife defenses…Don't be fooled by BS

If experienced law men (who have there guns drawn) get killed by inexperienced thugs with knives…. Those of you who think you can go toe to toe using only your hands against someone who is skilled with a blade…better rethink your premise… this goes for everyone…its a fight you probably will lose even if you win…..

[LeeCasebolt]

I agree that striking can get you cut on the arm...how does any such wrestling technique stand up to that? Get a partner and try any such takedown, submission, or takedown... if they can touch you with even just one hand...that is a knife.

The reality of it is that incapacitating someone via strikes in a situation such as one like this is your best preperation. Control the position, use angles, utilize pin-point striking, subdue the arm...quick reflexes, agility, timing, strong lower arm abilities...these are all essential in control and submission.


Coincidentally, I was just working on empty hand vs knife tonight. I'm baffled by the idea that anyone would attempt to defend (unarmed) against the blade without controlling the blade arm, which virtually by definition involves grappling.

[Knifefighter]

If one is in close, I can’t think of a better art than a grappling art You have to control the knife! However if there is space between you and the person wielding the knife (if he knows what he’s doing…you using a bridging technique to get close will usually get you killed…best to keep space in between you and him, through effective space, you are controlling the knife…that is the best defense….

Usually this is done with unorthodox techniques (such as backing up to a wall and kicking like mad…sliding down the wall till you are on the floor…the wall will cut down some of the attack angles and the fact that the aggressor has to bend over to get at you puts him in range of your feet which can take a lot of punishment …yes...this is unorthodox. but so is a lot of practical unarmed knife defenses…Don't be fooled by BS

Now here is someone who is training some realistic knife stuff.

[Yum Cha]

Quite informative, the reaction distance was interesting, and applies to lots of situations, good general knowledge, armed or unarmed.

I think about it in reference to the video KF posted showing the grappling coach "Rag dolling" the Kung Fu Sifu. Pride and vanity can be just as deadly as any weapon it appears. He walked right into a meat grinder without any hesitation.

In the Magic Marker fight at the end, there were a couple of interesting elements. The attacker used fencing like footwork as he lunges at the defender. Fencers lunge like that to make optimum use of the length of their weapon and keep their vulnerable areas at a distance.

The Defender made no attempt to trap the attacking arm, but to swat it away, also, he used low kicks to effectively deter and shorten the attack of the attacker a couple of times, and he was putting nothing into it. Against that lunging attack, the leading leg was the next closest thing to the knife hand.

Also, it was the perverbial "knife fight in a telephone booth". The set was tiny. He kept trying to touch the guys head, why??? Lateral movement seemed to help, he seemed to be practiced at that game.

I remember a vietnam war era special forces guy telling me they were trained to take a knife into the hand between the metacarples in a worst case scenario because you could foul it up in your bones and tendons long enough to attack with your knife in the other hand - hardcore, maybe too hardcore.

I think you'd have to be crazy to face a knife unarmed if you had any chance of escape. There are so many variables, your clothing, the attackers skill, the environment, etc. Too easy to lose unless you can arm yourself.

[Scott R. Brown]

the underwear in the pics look prison issue. that was the first thing i noticed before i read the rest of the thread.

the wounds look like slashings i have seen as a result of prison fights as well. they primarily use razor blades melted onto tooth brushes although some weapons can get pretty elaborate, such as prison made machetes.

one thing i learned from treating inmates wounds is how tough the human body is, how much punishment it can take.

it isnt the weakness of the body the kills it is the weakness of the mind. the tougher the mind the greater the chances of survival.

this guy didnt lose, he won! if he is alive, he won!!

[PlumDragon]

the wounds look like slashings i have seen as a result of prison fights as well.
Actually, I printed that pic out to show some friends and was remarking to them that the first 2 cuts are practically textbook examples of a basic x-pattern trained in FMA knifework.

Its certainly posible the guy wielding a knife had no training, but it makes you wonder what those guys are spending their time doign in jail...



"....And then you carve your initials in their back...." Teh...

[WinterPalm]

LOL... someone is brainwashed... and hasn't trained realistically against a blade.


LOL @ this being a "grappler". There is no evidence one way or the other that he was either a striker or grappler.


I have trained realistically against a knife. Not a live blade mind you...
This is how I've been trained to defend (in principle) and I've seen my Sifu use this against a well trained FMA knife fighter.

Again you bring up the childish comments...why no confidence in your abilities? Does it scare you that people are doing things you cannot comprehend or understand?

These photos were given to my Sifu by a police officer who said they were of another police officer...maybe he was a prison guard...I don't know.

[WinterPalm]

Wow. When I first put these up I was thinking that the trademark not a good grappler was going to be the first argument against the guy.
I think, albeit different wordings, most people agree that a mix of some form of subduing and restraining as well as striking is the ideal way to go in a situation like this...that is, if you cannot run.

I mentioned this and the other thread to my Sifu to get his opinion and he told me I could put his response up:

"For one to be able to have the ability to defend one self, a person needs to be able to correctly interpret what is in front of them, what they are dealing with, the situation...otherwise all the training and physical skill in the world does not count too much.
These guys have not correctly interpreted what is in front of them regarding my on line vid.
The video is not about knifefighting as these guys seem to think. It is about one or two empty hand defenses against a knife weildiing attacker. It is not about defense against a highly trained person in the use of the knife. It is about defense against the average type of person one would encounter on the street. It is not about a defense against an advanced knife attack. It is about defense against the most common type of attack from an unskilled or semi-skilled person...the type one will most likely encounter on the street. If it is compared to music, it is the beginning of learning about how to play an instrument...it is the ABC's of the matter. It is not about playing in an orchestra or a jam session...this is more advanced and in comparison, when fighting empty hand against a trained person, one had better use advanced methods and be advanced himself in order to effectively defend.
My first Sifu...My Tiger Style Kun Tao Sifu, is Indonesian and hence well versed in the way of the blade...In my years of study with him, I learned more than just a little from him about it. We also did other type weapon defenses eg. steel bar, crow bar, club etc.
Proof is in the pudding...what I learned and do has worked for me".

[WinterPalm]

Usually this is done with unorthodox techniques (such as backing up to a wall and kicking like mad…sliding down the wall till you are on the floor…the wall will cut down some of the attack angles and the fact that the aggressor has to bend over to get at you puts him in range of your feet which can take a lot of punishment …yes...this is unorthodox. but so is a lot of practical unarmed knife defenses…Don't be fooled by BS

..


:eek: Are you serious?

Just so I didn't misunderstand...are you saying to back yourself into a wall, then slide down the wall and potentially lay or sit on the floor while a guy has a knife standing above you?
I'm sorry but being on the ground with someone standing about you is about the worst place to be. In a similar position is where I found myself sitting and relaxing when a group approached and stood above (intimidation) and a metal bar began flying (took one to the knee and blocked another to the head which surprisingly did not break my forearm...this was years before kung fu but the reflex was there!), my buddy next to me took a knife in the back and had a lung punctured despite wearing a think sweater and a leather jacket.
To me, that is the reality of giving up position in such a way. Obviously we weren't kicking as you suggest but I wonder how much difference that would make?

I'm just curious as to how you would logically tell someone to back into a wall and then slide down and fight from there?? Is this some sort of advanced technique?

[Chief Fox]

Knife defense:
1. Get the heck outta there if you can.
if you can't do that...
2. Find or use your own weapon. My sifu recommends one of those calapsable batons like this: http://www.martialartsmart.net/19-02.html
if you can't do that...
3. Always be aware of the knife, seize and control the arm with the knife. Break it if you can. Get the heck outta there if you can.

[David Jamieson]

If there is no escape and a wall, then the wall will remove gates of attack for the knife weilder. This is what is meant by "cutting out angles of attack". I.E the attacks from behind and the side gates are now restricted and the centerline is the only real viable gate. The first gate is the front one. It is always the most defensible.

By doing this you have increased survivability.

To move downward removes more target, to kick outward exposes the legs but not the vitals. the tactics employed from this position are as varied and many as those of standing position.

[Knifefighter]

Does it scare you that people are doing things you cannot comprehend or understand?
What you are talking has nothing to do with comprehension and understanding. It’s nothing new and has been spouted by the theoretical "bubble training" guys for years.

My problem with it is that I have yet to see someone demonstrate it's validity in a manner that is observable and reproducible in a live setting.


The video is not about knifefighting as these guys seem to think. It is about one or two empty hand defenses against a knife weildiing attacker.
Fair enough... then how about him posting some video of someone going live against him full force with a training blade?


It is not about defense against a highly trained person in the use of the knife. It is about defense against the average type of person one would encounter on the street. It is not about a defense against an advanced knife attack. It is about defense against the most common type of attack from an unskilled or semi-skilled person..
Those techniques won't generally work against most untrained attackers because that is not the way they attack.

This is easily proven. Grab some of your buddies who are a little bit on the mean side, but who have no knife or MA training at all. Give each of them a training knife, or even just a wooden dowel, and tell them each to “go crazy” and attack you as hard as they can, trying to "kill" you. Nine times out of ten, these attacks will look nothing like those shown on the video.



I'm sorry but being on the ground with someone standing about you is about the worst place to be.
Well, it wouldn't be my place of choice. But it does have it's place.
It sure beats standing unarmed against the wall and trying to do your fancy disarms while the other guy is sewing machining you, which is probably THE worst place to be.


Is this some sort of advanced technique?
Actually it is... it took me 20 years of knife stuff to figure this out on my own and it only happened by accident after I kept getting mutilated with some other knife defenses. For me, it came when applying some BJJ tactics into the mix.

I'm actually both surprised and not surprised that others have figured this out also. I'm surprised because I didn't know others were doing this.

I'm not surprised because functionality demands that the same techniques will eventually surface from different sources. And while this type of defense should probably not be someone's initial tactic if all other options are open, it is quite a valid one under the right circumstances.

[neilhytholt]

Playing with a training knife with someone skilled (not just some stupid person off the street or somebody with no knife skills) is essential ... try stuff out, try your chin-na type maneuvers and watch them twist their wrist to carve up your wrist.

Apply your standard kicking and watch them carve up up your heel tendons, leg veins and arteries.

Apply your standard punching and watch them cut the undersides of your arms, your chest, stab you when appropriate ...

Apply your standard grappling maneuvers and watch them carve you up everywhere.

[PlumDragon]

Some of my thoughts on the ensuing debate:

- In the FMA world (I cant speak about knife fighting in any other art), each and every defense is also a gunting (destruction). It doesnt matter if you are on the ground or standing up, each and every strike you throw to someone who is skilled and armed with a knife will simply gunting everything you give them, kicking or punching; youre only cutting yourself.

- One of the reasons that grappling is so technical and grapplers routinely destroy standup artists is because it eliminates many of the variables and brings order and control to an otherwise messy situation. That is EXACTLY what you want when the other guy has a knife. Whether its standing or ground grappling, you need to remove the variable of that knife. Trap it against his body, disarm (very hard), control the limb...whatever! But you cant allow him to swing that knife at you or its only a matter of time before one of those swings cuts something more vital than your blockign hand or foot (if youre on the ground).

- Being backed into a corner certainly means that youve cut down on areas where opponents can attack from...but also puts you in a less tactically sound position. You are essentially "trapped" there until your assailant "lets you go". Youve LITERALLY "backed yourself into a corner", you are simply out of a variety of options that you had a minute ago. Being static in this sense means a lot less guessing on your opponents part.

Personally, I dont believe backing into a corner and going to the ground is the best way to go, especially if the guy knows what he is doing with the knife. I dont believe my FMA teacher (who specializes in knife) would recommend it either.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think anyone said that going to cornber. wall or ground was the first thing they would do, just that it is a viable alternative and not unsurvivable when other options fade away.

Utimately, the first choice is escape.

second choices are many.

last choice could be last chance.

[Knifefighter]

Personally, I dont believe backing into a corner and going to the ground is the best way to go, especially if the guy knows what he is doing with the knife. I dont believe my FMA teacher (who specializes in knife) would recommend it either.
Purposely backing into a wall is not a good strategy in and of itself. Mobility is always your best first option.

However, one has no choice if he is already backed into a wall.

[PlumDragon]

Its possible I misintepreted hung-le's post, however, looking back at it, it seems to me he endorses finding a wall and "utilizing" it...

Nevertheless, agreed, first choice is escape, that should be tantamount at all times and I just figured it was a given.

[The Xia]

An encounter with even an unskilled knife-wielder can prove fatal. Your best bet would be to have a weapon with better reach (like the aformentioned expandable baton. Only problem is that this weapon, and many others, is illegal in alot of places). In terms of unarmed vs. knife, the unarmed fighter is most likely to at least get cut. However, I have heard stories of martial artists with extreme skill (Mas Oyama for example) come out of knife encounters unscathed. Knives are a common weapon, martial arts teachers should cover defense against them. I know many styles also cover knife usage, the aformentioned FMA are famous for it (I hear Dan Inosanto is a great knife teacher) and many Japanese styles teach Tanto.

[neilhytholt]

Some of my thoughts on the ensuing debate:

- One of the reasons that grappling is so technical and grapplers routinely destroy standup artists is because it eliminates many of the variables and brings order and control to an otherwise messy situation. That is EXACTLY what you want when the other guy has a knife. Whether its standing or ground grappling, you need to remove the variable of that knife. Trap it against his body, disarm (very hard), control the limb...whatever! But you cant allow him to swing that knife at you or its only a matter of time before one of those swings cuts something more vital than your blockign hand or foot (if youre on the ground).

- Being backed into a corner certainly means that youve cut down on areas where opponents can attack from...but also puts you in a less tactically sound position. You are essentially "trapped" there until your assailant "lets you go". Youve LITERALLY "backed yourself into a corner", you are simply out of a variety of options that you had a minute ago. Being static in this sense means a lot less guessing on your opponents part.

Personally, I dont believe backing into a corner and going to the ground is the best way to go, especially if the guy knows what he is doing with the knife. I dont believe my FMA teacher (who specializes in knife) would recommend it either.

The last time I drilled this stuff, assuming the guy is relatively skilled and keeps 1 hand in front of him while the knife is behind relatively concealed and out of reach, there only appeared to be 2 ways to go.

a) attack the part of him that doesn't have the knife. I.E. control the side without the knife and take him out from that side.
1. He can try to come with the knife around or over the top. So be ready for that.
2. He can try to turn around forward, so you have to control.
3. He can try to turn around backward, in which case you get control of the knife hand.

b) Try to go around the other way and get control of the knife hand.

Strategy (b) basically ALWAYS involves getting cut a bit. So of course you don't want to leave your major blood vessels open.

2 knives is very difficult. Basically 2 knives involves always getting cut a bit.

[David Jamieson]

The last time I drilled this stuff, assuming the guy is relatively skilled and keeps 1 hand in front of him while the knife is behind relatively concealed and out of reach, there only appeared to be 2 ways to go.

a) attack the part of him that doesn't have the knife. I.E. control the side without the knife and take him out from that side.
1. He can try to come with the knife around or over the top. So be ready for that.
2. He can try to turn around forward, so you have to control.
3. He can try to turn around backward, in which case you get control of the knife hand.

b) Try to go around the other way and get control of the knife hand.

Strategy (b) basically ALWAYS involves getting cut a bit. So of course you don't want to leave your major blood vessels open.

2 knives is very difficult. Basically 2 knives involves always getting cut a bit.

That is not exactly a good strategy. You want to control the knife if you are in position to do so. To control the knife, you control teh arm that weilds it. If you let the knife remain, the chances of survivability drop with every second that knife is not in some form of control by you the defender.

[neilhytholt]

That is not exactly a good strategy. You want to control the knife if you are in position to do so. To control the knife, you control teh arm that weilds it. If you let the knife remain, the chances of survivability drop with every second that knife is not in some form of control by you the defender.

No, if you control their other side and break their arm or crush their throat, etc., before they have a chance to slash you then there's not much they can do. Like I said, watch out for the other hand.

I mean, think about how somebody like Mas Oyama defeated a knife attacker? One very fast punch most likely.

I guess if you don't know how to seriously disable or kill somebody quickly you probably should just run if you are attacked with a knife.

I mean, David, consider as well that in order to really kill you, they either have to slash a major artery so you bleed out, or poke you somewhere fatal.

The closer you are to their knife the easier it is for them to accomplish either of those, yes?

Imagine how much less effective a slash from a knife would be if you have control of their arm and are choking them out versus if you are trying for their knife hand and they get you while you're passing them on that side.

Just a little something for you to think about a bit and play with.

[The Xia]

No, if you control their other side and break their arm or crush their throat, etc., before they have a chance to slash you then there's not much they can do. Like I said, watch out for the other hand.

I mean, think about how somebody like Mas Oyama defeated a knife attacker? One very fast punch most likely.

I guess if you don't know how to seriously disable or kill somebody quickly you probably should just run if you are attacked with a knife.

I mean, David, consider as well that in order to really kill you, they either have to slash a major artery so you bleed out, or poke you somewhere fatal.

The closer you are to their knife the easier it is for them to accomplish either of those, yes?

Imagine how much less effective a slash from a knife would be if you have control of their arm and are choking them out versus if you are trying for their knife hand and they get you while you're passing them on that side.

Just a little something for you to think about a bit and play with.

There are many versions of the Mas Oyama knife story. Whats basic to all of them is that Oyama was in a bar (or dance hall) when he confronted some thug (who was pushing around Oyama's student or a girl, depending on the story) who pulled a knife on him. The guy attempted to stab Oyama who blocked the thrust and punched him in the face, killing him. Due to witnesses testifying to Oyama's plea of self-defense, he was acquitted of all charges.

[Crushing Fist]

neil...

I see what you are saying but,


it seems rather like you are going after the guy with the knife as opposed to being attacked with a knife.

Is this what you mean or do I misunderstand you?


if you can get the attacker's non-knife arm into a soild sholder lock or as you say break the arm, then there is a good chance of keeping the knife away from you.

I don't know that its what I would do, put I'm not saying it can't be done.

Certainly the fastest way to stop any attacker is with a one hit KO, its getting into a position to deliver this strike without getting cut that would be the "tricky" part.

[neilhytholt]

There are many versions of the Mas Oyama knife story. Whats basic to all of them is that Oyama was in a bar when he confronted some thug (who was pushing around Oyama's student or a girl, depending on the story) who pulled a knife on him. The guy attempted to stab Oyama who blocked the thrust and punched him in the face, killing him. Due to witnesses testifying to Oyama's plea of self-defense, he was acquitted of all charges.

The version that I was also told was he felt really bad afterwards and went to live with their family and attempt to work off his debt until the wife forgived him.

[Knifefighter]

No, if you control their other side and break their arm or crush their throat, etc., before they have a chance to slash you then there's not much they can do. Like I said, watch out for the other hand.
Do you realize how hard it is to disable someone with a single punch? It's even harder to break their arm in a standing situation.


I mean, think about how somebody like Mas Oyama defeated a knife attacker? One very fast punch most likely.
Don't tell me... that's the style you are now training, right?


I guess if you don't know how to seriously disable or kill somebody quickly you probably should just run if you are attacked with a knife.
Almost no one can do this on someone who is halfway athletic.
And, yes, running is probably the best option if you are unarmed against a knife and have that option available.


The closer you are to their knife the easier it is for them to accomplish either of those, yes?
No.


Imagine how much less effective a slash from a knife would be if you have control of their arm and are choking them out versus if you are trying for their knife hand and they get you while you're passing them on that side.
Trying to disable someone by going for their freehand is ludicrous. This leaves the knife hand free to attack with impunity.
Trained guys will bait you to go for the empty hand because this opens everything up.



Imagine how much less effective a slash from a knife would be if you have control of their arm and are choking them out versus if you are trying for their knife hand and they get you while you're passing them on that side
LOL @ controlling the non-knife hand and choking. Do you realize how many times you would be stabbed while you have THE OTHER (wtf???) hand controlled and are attempting to lock in a choke?

[David Jamieson]

Certainly the fastest way to stop any attacker is with a one hit KO, its getting into a position to deliver this strike without getting cut that would be the "tricky" part.


guy, that is the ****hest away from possible. lol a one hit ko. :rolleyes:
the odds against that are much higher than the other more realistic options that have been given here.

neil's way will get you hurt bad. It is spoken from lack of experience and that's cool.

If you wanna learn the defenses, then you have to practice them, you can't just think about what might or might not work, you have to try it and see where the percentages are in your favour.

escape is still #1 option.

[neilhytholt]

neil...

I see what you are saying but,


it seems rather like you are going after the guy with the knife as opposed to being attacked with a knife.

Is this what you mean or do I misunderstand you?


if you can get the attacker's non-knife arm into a soild sholder lock or as you say break the arm, then there is a good chance of keeping the knife away from you.

I don't know that its what I would do, put I'm not saying it can't be done.

Certainly the fastest way to stop any attacker is with a one hit KO, its getting into a position to deliver this strike without getting cut that would be the "tricky" part.

All's I'm saying is that the last time I drilled knife attacks it went down as I described. (Assuming you're knife fighting and have some warning).

Trying to get control of the knife hand hand/arm directly seemed to be a risky business and with somebody who was experienced I was never able to do it without getting some sort of cut.

If somebody comes up from behind you and you aren't expecting any attack, then I guess you're going to get stabbed or cut.

2 knives is extremely difficult. I don't think you can defend against 2 knives without expecting to get cut.

[David Jamieson]

No, if you control their other side and break their arm or crush their throat, etc., before they have a chance to slash you then there's not much they can do. Like I said, watch out for the other hand.

I mean, think about how somebody like Mas Oyama defeated a knife attacker? One very fast punch most likely.

I guess if you don't know how to seriously disable or kill somebody quickly you probably should just run if you are attacked with a knife.

I mean, David, consider as well that in order to really kill you, they either have to slash a major artery so you bleed out, or poke you somewhere fatal.

The closer you are to their knife the easier it is for them to accomplish either of those, yes?

Imagine how much less effective a slash from a knife would be if you have control of their arm and are choking them out versus if you are trying for their knife hand and they get you while you're passing them on that side.

Just a little something for you to think about a bit and play with.


guy...your statements make it quite clear that you have never even attempted any sort of practice with even rubber knives.

just something for you to think about and play with. :rolleyes:

[neilhytholt]

guy...your statements make it quite clear that you have never even attempted any sort of practice with even rubber knives.

just something for you to think about and play with. :rolleyes:

You are kindof a ****, so I won't give you any more tips. I did this 2 weeks ago. You're a f*cking moron.

[Knifefighter]

Trying to get control of the knife hand hand/arm directly seemed to be a risky business and with somebody who was experienced I was never able to do it without getting some sort of cut.
Empty hand vs. knife, you will almost always take some kind of damage.

Trying to control the free hand and leaving the knife hand free will get you friggin' butchered.

[neilhytholt]

Empty hand vs. knife, you will almost always take some kind of damage.

Trying to control the free hand and leaving the knife hand free will get you friggin' butchered.

Only if you suck. Which I think you all do considering your responses to my posts.

[Knifefighter]

No, if you control their other side and break their arm or crush their throat, etc., before they have a chance to slash you then there's not much they can do. Like I said, watch out for the other hand.


I did this 2 weeks ago.

Which one? Broke the arm or crushed the throat?

[David Jamieson]

ok, well if nothing else, we've learned from this thread that Neilhytholt is a 14 year old kid with a lot of anger.

dude, your "tips" are ludicrous and dangerous. get over yourself and try to listen and read what others have to say. whether you agree with their personalities or not is beside the point.

You have demonstrated you actually have little if any experience, you consistently demonstrate an inability to be criticize even when you are glaringly wrong.

once you get past that negative attribute, you might actually start making some progess.

signed
a f@cking moron. lol

[Crushing Fist]

guy, that is the ****hest away from possible. lol a one hit ko. :rolleyes:
the odds against that are much higher than the other more realistic options that have been given here.

neil's way will get you hurt bad. It is spoken from lack of experience and that's cool.

If you wanna learn the defenses, then you have to practice them, you can't just think about what might or might not work, you have to try it and see where the percentages are in your favour.

escape is still #1 option.


are you saying its faster to grapple an attacker than it is to KO them with a single strike?

first of all this is NOT what I would do, and I think knifefighter has the most realistic view of the situation, and I'll even say you have made some good comments as well.


However, we all know there are people quite capable of effectively getting one hit KO's pretty consistantly. I know several and I'm not one of them. If you are confident that you can get a one hit KO then by all means do that.

even if you don't KO them a stunning blow will always lead into something else.


I'm not under any illusions here.

the best strategy is to trap and control the knife hand, agreed

what do you do after that?

depending on the position I would likely strike a few times on my way into some form of choke or submission.

if they end up KO'd on the way in, great... but I'm not going to stake my life on it.

[Knifefighter]

Only if you suck. Which I think you all do considering your responses to my posts.
OK, I'm willing to have an open mind here...
Of course, you can see how I might be skeptical since I have never seen this happen in all my years of working with the knife.
It would strengthen your case (and maybe help us to to suck so badly) if you could offer some kind of documentation of this.
Is there any way you could post a video clip of you doing this in a live environment?

[David Jamieson]

are you saying its faster to grapple an attacker than it is to KO them with a single strike?

first of all this is NOT what I would do, and I think knifefighter has the most realistic view of the situation, and I'll even say you have made some good comments as well.


However, we all know there are people quite capable of effectively getting one hit KO's pretty consistantly. I know several and I'm not one of them. If you are confident that you can get a one hit KO then by all means do that.

even if you don't KO them a stunning blow will always lead into something else.


I'm not under any illusions here.

the best strategy is to trap and control the knife hand, agreed

what do you do after that?

depending on the position I would likely strike a few times on my way into some form of choke or submission.

if they end up KO'd on the way in, great... but I'm not going to stake my life on it.


are you in the same class with neil or something?

you say you're not under any illusions?

dude. how hard do you think someone like mike tyson can hit? holyfield? ali? take your pick. Liddel? Couture? how many one hit knockouts you see coming from these guys in a few seconds in? You got power like that?

nuff said methinks.

[Scott R. Brown]

Training for a knife fight and being in a knife fight are two different things. While it is better to train than not train I will surmise that no one here has A LOT of practice with actual knife fights, therefore most of what is written here is speculation based upon experimentation or the advice of other “so called” experts which few or NO ONE here has any ACTUAL experience practicing IN REAL LIFE!. Almost every technique mentioned here may be considered a valuable option under specific circumstances. No situation is identical to another. There are many variables involved in any encounter.

I am always fascinated that some consider themselves “experts” when most have training, but little “actual” experience. Knife fighting is not an activity that one wants to actually have too much real word experience with because it tends limit your life span. I have known and SEEN inmates AND staff that have been slashed, clubbed, stabbed etc. in most situations the fact the person survived was more a matter of luck or the ineptitude of the attacker and less about skill of the defender. If someone really wants to get you they will surprise you. This is what one needs to be constantly aware of! (I know it is improper English!)

I am also fascinated whenever I hear someone mention the impossibility or improbability of the “one punch” knock out! I have mentioned this here on the BB before: At one of the prisons I worked at there was an inmate in his mid-fifties. He was noted amongst the other inmates as someone you don’t mess with. He had a well known reputation for his “one punch” knock out! After putting down another young punk one day, a good friend of mine asked him his strategy. He told my friend all he did was move and weave until he saw his opening then roundhoused to the temple. I wouldn’t say all inmates are very skilled in fighting, but then many inmates grow up fighting their whole lives. To be aged mid-fifties in a prison and to be feared or respected by most other inmates is expert enough advice for me!!

[neilhytholt]

are you in the same class with neil or something?

you say you're not under any illusions?

dude. how hard do you think someone like mike tyson can hit? holyfield? ali? take your pick. Liddel? Couture? how many one hit knockouts you see coming from these guys in a few seconds in? You got power like that?

nuff said methinks.

You remind me of the guy who told me a while back that he didn't like punching to the face because he might break his hands. LOL

[The Xia]

The version that I was also told was he felt really bad afterwards and went to live with their family and attempt to work off his debt until the wife forgived him.

I have heard this version as well. Dr. Seong Soo Choi, Oyama's nephew, tells it like this. (I'm not directly quoting)

A depressed Oyama was sulking in a bar after one of his students committed suicide (because he was expelled from the dojo due to getting into trouble and an out-of-control temper). A group of guys were harassing some girl, Oyama confronted them. One of the guys pulled a knife and stabbed Oyama in his left forearm. In response, Oyama killed him in one strike. The police took him in the station but didn't press charges. As Oyama was walking out, he sees the angry wife and kid of the dead guy. He felt awful because he figured if he were in a better state of mind there wouldn't have been a death. Oyama kneeled at their feet and swore to never use Karate again. Even though they despised him, Oyama followed them to their farm. He built a shack and worked the land for a few months. The dead guy's son gathered some peers on the basis that a nutcase was living on his family's property. They beat Oyama into a coma with clubs (Oyama didn't retaliate due to his oath to never again use Karate). Three days later, Oyama woke up to find the dead guy's wife at his feet begging for forgiveness. She also wanted him to go back to training. Oyama went back to Karate, the situation now being over.

This is Dr. Seong Soo Choi's version of the story, there are others.

[David Jamieson]

You remind me of the guy who told me a while back that he didn't like punching to the face because he might break his hands. LOL

you remind me of an impudent 12 year old.

[neilhytholt]

Training for a knife fight and being in a knife fight are two different things. While it is better to train than not train I will surmise that no one here has A LOT of practice with actual knife fights, therefore most of what is written here is speculation based upon experimentation or the advice of other “so called” experts which few or NO ONE here has any ACTUAL experience practicing IN REAL LIFE!.

That's the reason that I posted my practice as just that, practice and drills in the hope of encouraging some talk instead of getting attacked and told that I didn't even do the drills.

In all honesty it seems like you guys would rather attack than talk. Which is kindof a shame.

I was going to talk about the specific strategies of not leaving yourself so open but if you're going to attack me on very basic stuff there really is no point in talking to you.

[neilhytholt]

you remind me of an impudent 12 year old.

And you remind me of a very slightly upgraded version of yourself 5 years ago ... maybe in another 20 years you'll mellow out a little bit more.

[David Jamieson]

scott, your mastery of the obvious is amazing.
:rolleyes:

are you saying you need to be punched hard in the face to realize that this would hurt?

I would hope that I wouldn't have to deal with a knife weilding maniac. But nevertheless, as a martia practitioner I cannot escape the fact that this is a possibility and that it must be addressed in training that relates to reality based self defense.

In the environment of training you at least have the luxury of making mistakes and frankly, I think Ive said all along that regardless of the amount oif training you do, you can still get cut, stabbed whatever. Doesn't matter if your a geeky awkward kid or a top form master of martial arts.

to presume an outcome is foolish, to train towards possible outcomes is a better way to go.

[The Willow Sword]

Now i know we cant carry Sai on us so the collapseable Baton seems like the practical choice to use. But it seems like a Pair of SAI would be effective. I know that in the 30's-50's the japanese police carried sai with them until they were outlawed (due to many deaths that occured while the police were using them against criminals on the street, tonfa were replaced as the japanese police weapon of choice). With a Pair of ANYTHING longer than that of the blade you would be able to do multiple strikes to their one strike change ups. Plus i think that Sai could easily hook that wrist and arm with the space between the prongs and subdue long enough to strike to their eyes with the other sai, or maybe a combination of catch their arm with the sai and as you draw down or jerk their arm down you release one of the sai and stab THEM right in the eye(talk about OUCH!!)

any thoughts about this?
TWS

[Knifefighter]

are you saying its faster to grapple an attacker than it is to KO them with a single strike?
Faster is not the goal here. Faster may simply get you killed faster. Increasing the chances of survival is what is important. I like the Dog Bros metaphor... Die Less Often.

A one strike KO is not high percentage and brings your arms into cutting range.

Grappling, as in double leg takedown type of stuff is definitely not the answer either and I don't think that is what anyone here is talking about. That will get you killed even more surely than will striking.



However, we all know there are people quite capable of effectively getting one hit KO's pretty consistently. I know several and I'm not one of them. If you are confident that you can get a one hit KO then by all means do that.
I'm not much of a betting man, but I'd be willing to bet a pretty good amount of money that just about no one could KO me before I got in and did significant damage using a knife. I'd actually be willing to do this using a training knife with anyone who wanted to put their money against mine.


even if you don't KO them a stunning blow will always lead into something else.
Yeah, probably leading to the guy who was stunned getting inside with the knife.



the best strategy is to trap and control the knife hand, agreed
what do you do after that?
depending on the position I would likely strike a few times on my way into some form of choke or submission.
Striking only lessens your control of the blade.
Choking gives complete control of the knife back to the opponent.

There are really only two options after control is achieved:
Disarm or break.

[David Jamieson]

And you remind me of a very slightly upgraded version of yourself 5 years ago ... maybe in another 20 years you'll mellow out a little bit more.


sure kid, whatever you say.

[neilhytholt]

Now i know we cant carry Sai on us so the collapseable Baton seems like the practical choice to use. But it seems like a Pair of SAI would be effective. I know that in the 30's-50's the japanese police carried sai with them until they were outlawed (due to many deaths that occured while the police were using them against criminals on the street, tonfa were replaced as the japanese police weapon of choice). With a Pair of ANYTHING longer than that of the blade you would be able to do multiple strikes to their one strike change ups. Plus i think that Sai could easily hook that wrist and arm with the space between the prongs and subdue long enough to strike to their eyes with the other sai, or maybe a combination of catch their arm with the sai and as you draw down or jerk their arm down you release one of the sai and stab THEM right in the eye(talk about OUCH!!)

any thoughts about this?
TWS

Actually I posted the same thing on a thread a while back on here.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41711&highlight=sais

[Crushing Fist]

are you in the same class with neil or something?

you say you're not under any illusions?

dude. how hard do you think someone like mike tyson can hit? holyfield? ali? take your pick. Liddel? Couture? how many one hit knockouts you see coming from these guys in a few seconds in? You got power like that?

nuff said methinks.


stop being a jerk, if you can...


reread what I said...

ok

did I say I think I can do that?

no I didn't

read it again...

oh yeah I was AGREEING with you



good lord man


post a video of you taking a bare knuckle punch from Tyson without getting KO'd and I'll take it all back :rolleyes:

It really bugs me when people use sport fighting examples to make some "point" about self-defense.

are you saying you couldn't KO an untrained man who is weaker than you with one hit?

read what I said again...seriously, because I don't think you did.

nuff said

[The Xia]

Now i know we cant carry Sai on us so the collapseable Baton seems like the practical choice to use. But it seems like a Pair of SAI would be effective. I know that in the 30's-50's the japanese police carried sai with them until they were outlawed (due to many deaths that occured while the police were using them against criminals on the street, tonfa were replaced as the japanese police weapon of choice). With a Pair of ANYTHING longer than that of the blade you would be able to do multiple strikes to their one strike change ups. Plus i think that Sai could easily hook that wrist and arm with the space between the prongs and subdue long enough to strike to their eyes with the other sai, or maybe a combination of catch their arm with the sai and as you draw down or jerk their arm down you release one of the sai and stab THEM right in the eye(talk about OUCH!!)

any thoughts about this?
TWS

We should all walk around with Kwan Daos! :eek: :D

[neilhytholt]

stop being a jerk, if you can...


reread what I said...

ok

did I say I think I can do that?

no I didn't

read it again...

oh yeah I was AGREEING with you



good lord man


post a video of you taking a bare knuckle punch from Tyson without getting KO'd and I'll take it all back :rolleyes:

It really bugs me when people use sport fighting examples to make some "point" about self-defense.

are you saying you couldn't KO an untrained man who is weaker than you with one hit?

read what I said again...seriously, because I don't think you did.

nuff said

He's just reverting back to the same old David Jameson who used to get so angry on other forums. LOL

Whenever he does that, doesn't it remind you of Jameson in the Spiderman comics? LOL

[David Jamieson]

stop being a jerk, if you can...


reread what I said...

ok

did I say I think I can do that?

no I didn't

read it again...

oh yeah I was AGREEING with you



good lord man


post a video of you taking a bare knuckle punch from Tyson without getting KO'd and I'll take it all back :rolleyes:

It really bugs me when people use sport fighting examples to make some "point" about self-defense.

are you saying you couldn't KO an untrained man who is weaker than you with one hit?

read what I said again...seriously, because I don't think you did.

nuff said

when i was in orioles cc youth boxing program, I won some, lost some etc etc.
It is very difficult to knock someone out cold with one hit. what im saying is this is a poor choice of technique to use against a weilder with a knife because the percentage is low.

escape is the best option, it has the highest survivability quotient.

In karate classes, in tkd and in kungfu classes there was no power striking in live scenarios that I have found and did find in sportive combatives. lots of great methods, but when it came to fight training, it didn't get there for a long period of time. More often than not a student could be in a class for years before their hand ever touched another person with combative intent. That's how it is and that's cool.

I read what you said crushing fist, just like a lot of other people are reading what you and neil are saying.

And from what Im reading, I'm surmising that you're guessing at stuff based on what you think as opposed to what you have actually tried.

there is no shame in not knowing, there is however in pretending to know and offering advice in a public forum that can get someone killed.

grabbing the non weapon hand is stupid. Take one half of an hour out of your day and look through what many fma, kali, etc etc have to say about defense choices when armed vs unarmed.

I'll bet that you will not find any of them who do not advocate escape first. none of them will advocate going for a one hit knockout and again, zero will tell you to go after the empty hand and leave the blade hand free. :rolleyes:

Man, Im starting to think that you guys are just getting your jollys by saying these stupid thinghs and looking for reactions from people who know better.

Anyway, moving right along, lets talk about why fishing for the knife hand is a mistake.

It's the same idea as fishing for the jab or a cross.

question: Why is imperative that you do not fish for the hand?

[Scott R. Brown]

That's the reason that I posted my practice as just that, practice and drills in the hope of encouraging some talk instead of getting attacked and told that I didn't even do the drills.

In all honesty it seems like you guys would rather attack than talk. Which is kindof a shame.

I was going to talk about the specific strategies of not leaving yourself so open but if you're going to attack me on very basic stuff there really is no point in talking to you.

Actually Neil, my post was as a result of the flak you are getting for you post and the flak some others had recieved as well. I found your advice to be valid according to some circumstances. The criticisms are not very fair in my opinion because just about everyone's view could be a wrong move by changing the circumstances of the encounter.

[Knifefighter]

Training for a knife fight and being in a knife fight are two different things. While it is better to train than not train I will surmise that no one here has A LOT of practice with actual knife fights, therefore most of what is written here is speculation based upon experimentation or the advice of other “so called” experts which few or NO ONE here has any ACTUAL experience practicing IN REAL LIFE!. Almost every technique mentioned here may be considered a valuable option under specific circumstances. No situation is identical to another. There are many variables involved in any encounter. Unless one is involved in frequent edged weapons encounters, the best he can do is train. Since training is the best option, the best they one can do is train as realistically as possible.

The goal of training is to develop learned responses to specific situations. Training in a live environment against fully resisting opponents of various skill levels in situations that are as close to real as possible to “reality” is the best way for this learning to occur.

From this type of training, certain responses, tactics, and techniques will emerge as being better than others. While we cannot predict with certainty which of these will work in every situation, we can know which ones have higher probabilities of success and which are less likely to succeed. From this, we can refine and train the "Die Less Often" approaches and throw out the "Die More Often" ones.

[The Willow Sword]

Yeah that was funny, sort of:rolleyes: But you know as i think back in history and the clothing that people wore way back when it would seem viable that back THEN people had better means of defending against attacks like that, simply because the upper class and warrior class of people in all walks of culture had SOME sortof protective armour on that tied into the fashions of the day. Like Leather fore arm guards and thick leather vests and such. Too bad we cant do that today without looking like a ren fest geek;) or a dungeon and dragons Geek(which is pretty much the same thing):D

So WHAT ABOUT The SAI??? I mean i carry one in my truck along WITH a pretty decent knife as well. Although i wish i had the Tom Brown Knife. what a wicked and practical blade to have.

http://www.onestopknifeshop.com/images/tops/tps-tbt.jpg Here it is. nothing rivals this thing. Tom knows his sh!t and knows how to make it well.
Anyone ever READ "The Tracker"? Great Book.

TWS

[neilhytholt]

Actually Neil, my post was as a result of the flak you are getting for you post and the flak some others had recieved as well. I found your advice to be valid according to some circumstances. The criticisms are not very fair in my opinion because just about everyone's view could be a wrong move by changing the circumstances of the encounter.

Yeah, you were not attacking. Some of those other guys were attacking.

My crazy insane sifu taught a lot of techniques for attacking the arm holding the knife, especially the 'Psycho defense', when the person is holding the knife with a reverse grip ... but IMHO those aren't so effective when a person is trained well with the knife.

[David Jamieson]

Unless one is involved in frequent edged weapons encounters, the best he can do is train. Since training is the best option, the best they one can do is train as realistically as possible.

The goal of training is to develop learned responses to specific situations. Training in a live environment against fully resisting opponents of various skill levels in situations that are as close to real as possible to “reality” is the best way for this learning to occur.

From this type of training, certain responses, tactics, and techniques will emerge as being better than others. While we cannot predict with certainty which of these will work in every situation, we can know which ones have higher probabilities of success and which are less likely to succeed. From this, we can refine and train the "Die Less Often" approaches and throw out the "Die More Often" ones.

I'm gonna submit to you that you are wasting your time, as am I as is anyone who puts time and effort towards defensibility in rbsd scenarios in this thread.

Im out, this is turning into a crapfest too fast and good info is being glossed over by crap.

[neilhytholt]

The thing is, David, I'm not saying I'm an expert. Did I say I was an expert? No ...

All I'm saying is "In my last practice we drilled these things." "In my last practice we tried these things."

Anyways, I'm done talking about this. Why should I talk to a few sincere people and a bunch of bozos when I can go train with sincere people?

[Scott R. Brown]

scott, your mastery of the obvious is amazing.
:rolleyes:

are you saying you need to be punched hard in the face to realize that this would hurt?

I would hope that I wouldn't have to deal with a knife weilding maniac. But nevertheless, as a martia practitioner I cannot escape the fact that this is a possibility and that it must be addressed in training that relates to reality based self defense.

In the environment of training you at least have the luxury of making mistakes and frankly, I think Ive said all along that regardless of the amount oif training you do, you can still get cut, stabbed whatever. Doesn't matter if your a geeky awkward kid or a top form master of martial arts.

to presume an outcome is foolish, to train towards possible outcomes is a better way to go.


Don't knock something you apparently have very little of!

I am saying that the best way to learn to defend oneself effectively requires real world experience. Being punched in the face may teach one that it hurts but it doesnt teach one how to defend himself. See a little obviousness can change ones knowledge base!

You may have overlooked my comment stating that training is better than no training. But to consider your opinion more valid than another's simply because you play with toy knives does not make your advice special. A boxer is better equiped for actual fisticuffs than someone who point spars. This is because he knows how to actually HIT something and has been hit frequently himself.

Tag with knives is not the same thing and having someone come up behind you and stab you or slash you in the neck. I have known those that have been slashed and have known those that have done the slashing. I have treated the wounds and watched the attacks. I have NOT been in a knife fight. I have learned from my observations as well. But that does not make my opinion of greater value than than someone with numerous knife fights under their belt. Just as a point fighter's opinon is of significantly lesser value than a boxer's!

[Scott R. Brown]

Now i know we cant carry Sai on us so the collapseable Baton seems like the practical choice to use. But it seems like a Pair of SAI would be effective. I know that in the 30's-50's the japanese police carried sai with them until they were outlawed (due to many deaths that occured while the police were using them against criminals on the street, tonfa were replaced as the japanese police weapon of choice). With a Pair of ANYTHING longer than that of the blade you would be able to do multiple strikes to their one strike change ups. Plus i think that Sai could easily hook that wrist and arm with the space between the prongs and subdue long enough to strike to their eyes with the other sai, or maybe a combination of catch their arm with the sai and as you draw down or jerk their arm down you release one of the sai and stab THEM right in the eye(talk about OUCH!!)

any thoughts about this?
TWS

Why not just carry a gun!

[neilhytholt]

Why not just carry a gun!

I don't think I want a gun on me because there are several altercations that I've been in where the other person probably would be dead now if I'd had a gun, just because I wouldn't have minded much escalating it. LOL

[Knifefighter]

question: Why is imperative that you do not fish for the hand?I don't think you're going to get much mileage out of that one, but check this out. Since we are now moving into the flamefest portion of the thread, this should get them fired up.

Speaking of unorthodox-

I could show people how to disarm a knife BY GRABBING THE BLADE without getting cut, or, at the most, only superficially cut.

I'm betting every single person would originally say NO FRIGGIN' WAY.

Not only could I show you how to do it, I could demonstrate it with a live, sharp blade and afterwards everyone would immediately go "I never thought of that but it makes complete sense."

GUARANTEED.

[neilhytholt]

I am saying that the best way to learn to defend oneself effectively requires real world experience. Being punched in the face may teach one that it hurts but it doesnt teach one how to defend himself. See a little obviousness can change ones knowledge base!

Yep ... I can attest to the fact that point sparring teaches you little to nothing about fighting. Point sparrers have nothing on down and dirty street fighters and boxers, as I learned the first time I tried to fight one and got my ass handed to me.

[neilhytholt]

I don't think you're going to get much mileage out of that one, but watch check this out. Since we are now moving into the flamefest portion of the thread, this should get them fired up.

Speaking of unorthodox-

I could show people how to disarm a knife BY GRABBING THE BLADE without getting cut, or, at the most, only superficially cut.

I'm betting every single person would originally say NO FRIGGIN' WAY.

Not only could I show you how to do it, I could demonstrate it with a live, sharp blade and afterwards everyone would immediately go "I never thought of that but it makes complete sense."

GUARANTEED.

I'd probably pay you $100 for you to sign off on a waiver of liability and then do that demonstration with me holding a razor sharp 6" applegate-fairbairn knife. Just thinking about how the serrated part would tear your skin and tendons and then the blade part would fully cut them, just sounds so satisfying after our internet flame war.

Edit ... wait, wait ... not supposed to be violent ...

Okay, please do not do this or demonstrate this lest you get hurt. LOL

[Scott R. Brown]

I don't think you're going to get much mileage out of that one, but check this out. Since we are now moving into the flamefest portion of the thread, this should get them fired up.

Speaking of unorthodox-

I could show people how to disarm a knife BY GRABBING THE BLADE without getting cut, or, at the most, only superficially cut.

I'm betting every single person would originally say NO FRIGGIN' WAY.

Not only could I show you how to do it, I could demonstrate it with a live, sharp blade and afterwards everyone would immediately go "I never thought of that but it makes complete sense."

GUARANTEED.


That is NOT special knowledge. I can take any knife and press it into my forerarm as hard as I want and it won't cut me! Your techinique, as most of them here, would likely work in specific circumstances, but it is still risky. Just as backing into a wall and kicking legs, attacking the empty hand or arm, attempting a one punch knock out!

Part of the problem with this discussion and many that occur on these boards is that people presume a "duel like" encounter where there is some sort of a "manly" face off! The FACT is a REAL bad guy will stack the deck in HIS favor! If someone wants to REALLY hurt you, you will not see him coming! Then all the years of fancy training with toys will do you no good!

[The Willow Sword]

I have a Pair of these actually, They are pretty nice. Made by the Nieto Knife co. in Spain. 440C Stainless. Full Tang with brass riveting a cocobola wood handle to either side of the blade (a very nice hard wood) They are functional and i shaprened them to a razor edge.

This is ALSO the Knife Used in the Movie "X-MEN United"( not the exact knife mind you) i got these daggers years ago). The scene where Night crawler Attacks the president and thrusts a knife down next to his face on the table. They do a pretty good shot of it in the aftermath scene. Cool huh?:cool:

The only problem with this dagger'esque blade is that is is single edged. I wouldnt even KNOW how to grind another edge on it to make it more of a dagger instead of a show copy of a dagger.

TWS

[Knifefighter]

I'd probably pay you $100 for you to sign off on a waiver of liability and then do that demonstration with me holding a razor sharp 6" applegate-fairbairn knife. Just thinking about how the serrated part would tear your skin and tendons and then the blade part would fully cut them, just sounds so satisfying after our internet flame war.

Edit ... wait, wait ... not supposed to be violent ...

Okay, please do not do this or demonstrate this lest you get hurt. LOL
Hundred bucks? OK.
Where do you live?

[neilhytholt]

I have a Pair of these actually, They are pretty nice. Made by the Nieto Knife co. in Spain. 440C Stainless. Full Tang with brass riveting a cocobola wood handle to either side of the blade (a very nice hard wood) They are functional and i shaprened them to a razor edge.

This is ALSO the Knife Used in the Movie "X-MEN United"( not the exact knife mind you) i got these daggers years ago). The scene where Night crawler Attacks the president and thrusts a knife down next to his face on the table. They do a pretty good shot of it in the aftermath scene. Cool huh?:cool:

The only problem with this dagger'esque blade is that is is single edged. I wouldnt even KNOW how to grind another edge on it to make it more of a dagger instead of a show copy of a dagger.

TWS

Oh, good grief, talk about RBSD you're a NERD ... those aren't tactical knives. I really am talking to morons here.

[Knifefighter]

That is NOT special knowledge. I can take any knife and press it into my forerarm as hard as I want and it won't cut me!
You've no idea how many people are clueless about this simple fact. Now take this basic principle and apply it to control techniques and you've got some pretty workable disarms



Your techinique, as most of them here, would likely work in specific circumstances, but it is still risky.
All techniques are risky against a blade. Some are more risky than others.


If someone wants to REALLY hurt you, you will not see him coming! Then all the years of fancy training with toys will do you no good!
People sneak up to police officers and kill them from ambush positions . That doesn't mean law enforcement training does law enforcement officers no good.

Police train with simunitions. These are "toys", but they are a good way to train realistically.

[The Willow Sword]

a HUNDRED Bucks????? hahahaha i wouldnt do it for LESS than 2000 dollars. make it 5000 PLUS hospital bills. :rolleyes:

Oh and NEIL you fukin MORON!!!! "ITS NOT THE ARROW ITS THE INDIAN" you remember that. I know a few guys that could kill you with a pencil. Gulf War Veterans.

and i never said or implied that they were "Tactical knives". its just what i have. better than nothing. http://www.onestopknifeshop.com/images/tops/tps-tbt.jpg THIS is the "TACTICAL KNIFE" that i want , if i could afford it.

TWS

[neilhytholt]

Hundred bucks? OK.
Where do you live?

Actually I know the very trick you're talking about because it was shown to me in a class somewhere (can't remember where). Basically you hold the knife with one side in your palm, and your fingers relatively flat and the other side with the flat of your fingers, leaving a space ...

If you twist one way, the knife basically just releases with some very small cuts to your palm, and if you twist the other way, it catches into the front of your fingers and slices your palm at the same time.

Don't think we're all idiots here. I thought you were talking seriousness until you showed those knives of yours.

BTW if I remember correctly that was used for Japanese style knives that are single-edged....

[Knifefighter]

a HUNDRED Bucks????? hahahaha i wouldnt do it for LESS than 2000 dollars. make it 5000 PLUS hospital bills..


Actually I know the very trick you're talking about because it was shown to me in a class somewhere (can't remember where). Basically you hold the knife with one side in your palm, and your fingers relatively flat and the other side with the flat of your fingers, leaving a space ...
See Scott... they have no clue.



Don't think we're all idiots here. I thought you were talking seriousness until you showed those knives of yours.
Get your posters straight.

My knives are all Spyderco, Benchmade, Gerber, and custom folders and I don't show them.

[Scott R. Brown]

You've no idea how many people are clueless about this simple fact. Now take this basic principle and apply it to control techniques and you've got some pretty workable disarms



All techniques are risky against a blade. Some are more risky than others.


People sneak up to police officers and kill them from ambush positions . That doesn't mean law enforcement training does law enforcement officers no good.

Police train with simunitions. These are "toys", but they are a good way to train realistically.


All very good points!! I reiterate I have already stated "training is better than no training". I merely attempt to caution against over-confidence BECAUSE of our training and the out of hand disregard for seemingly impractical applications. Our greatest weakness is our presumption of safety! Something that appears impractical today MAY save our life tomorrow. Sometimes it is the unexpected or unconventional that creates the opening or opportunity necessary to ensure our surrival.

[The Willow Sword]

KF i was being sarcastic. im not a complete idiot. i just think Neil is full of pi$$ and Vinegar. PLus for YOU to accept a 100 dollar fee for demonstration like what was mentioned is pretty dumba$$ 'esque, if you ask me:p

TWS

[WinterPalm]

Some won't catch the arm in a blocking parrying manuever.

Some WILL catch the BLADE of the knife (just going along with the joke!) against an attacker (kind of like Ray Pina's guy who advocated catching the knife between the radius and ulna).

Some will back into a corner and then sit down to defend themselves (again, just going along with the joke)

And yet if someone intercepts a knife attack at whatever point in the trajectory of the attack (angle, velocity, speed, intent (ie jab or cross mentality in terms of power generation)), and then applies a locking or redirecting technique with a very solid strike to the jaw, temple, throat, etc, while controlling the knife wielding arm...this is not realistic?

At first I thought this would be a normal discussion...but what a bunch of crap. I suppose that after so many years of knife fighting you might have a plethora of techniques, but I'd prefer to limit the what-ifs and stick to concepts, principles, and techniques that deal with practical realistic attacks by a knife wielding assailant. Like unarmed, there are only so many things you can do with a knife and a limited number of ways to deal with the attack. You must decide when to pick up or disarm the attack and make your move. A knife can only move so many ways and they will almost entirely exist in a stand-up environment that requires one to be trained in standup to a very high level. If you can't feel it or see it, after years of training, then you need to keep on training...

I'm not saying my abilities are anywhere near a good level to deal with a knife attack, but I've seen enough and read enough to know that what I am learning works.

Oh yeah, so far the only video I've seen in regards to this by any poster is that of my Sifu. Why doesn't somebody else put something up of themselves and their techniques?:cool:

[neilhytholt]

See Scott... they have no clue.



Get your posters straight.

My knives are all Spyderco, Benchmade, Gerber, and custom folders.

Actually I myself used this technique against live kantanas. For the blackbelt test at one school you had to catch a live kantana between both of your hands from sitting in seiza (on your knees). Different technique but same principles (flat hand).

I don't like it because IMHO blade-chasing is kindof dumb.

So if you're so good, it's very easy ... post a clip, then. :)

[Knifefighter]

PLus for YOU to accept a 100 dollar fee for demonstration like what was mentioned is pretty dumba$$ 'esque, if you ask me:p

I've done it for free numerous times.
Like I said, most people are clueless- otherwise this wouldn't surprise you.

[neilhytholt]

KF i was being sarcastic. im not a complete idiot. i just think Neil is full of pi$$ and Vinegar. PLus for YOU to accept a 100 dollar fee for demonstration like what was mentioned is pretty dumba$$ 'esque, if you ask me:p

TWS

My co-workers are telling me I'm turning into a curmudgeon. LOL

Anyways, Gene posted something interesting on the other thread which is that Coach Ross contributed a lot to this forum otherwise he would have been banned.

I don't think I'm contributing a lot to this forum, so I'm going to really do it this time and stay away.

If I wanted to study knife fighting I wouldn't talk to CMA folks anyway.

[The Willow Sword]

Ok KF so what you are telling me is that YOU HAVE done demos where the opponent has attacked you full on with a sharp 6" blade?

I find this very hard to believe, in fact i find it to be pure bullsh!t

[neilhytholt]

I've done it for free numerous times.
Like I said, most people are clueless- otherwise this wouldn't surprise you.

So post a clip, then. I'm clueless, so post a clip ...

[WinterPalm]

People sneak up to police officers and kill them from ambush positions . That doesn't mean law enforcement training does law enforcement officers no good.

Police train with simunitions. These are "toys", but they are a good way to train realistically.


Funny you bring that up...we have actually had police officers train with us because the training provided for them was inadequate. My Sifu has also designed curriculum for reality based training used by various law enforcement and corretions professionals.

An ambush is the worst scenario. I suppose only awareness of your surroundings and a good case of paranoia will prevent that!:D

[neilhytholt]

Ok so what you are telling me is that YOU HAVE done demos where the opponent has attacked you full on with a sharp 6" blade?

I find this very hard to believe, in fact i find it to be pure bullsh!t

He's obviously very experienced. Where's his clips and DVDs?

[Scott R. Brown]

Here is something interesting!!!

Not one person has mentioned anything along the lines of:

1) I would pick up a chair!
2) I would throw a plate, beer bottle, pepper shaker, etc.!
3) I would pull out my gun and shoot him!
4) I would thrust him with a broom!
5) I would run over him with car!
6) I would throw an innocent bystander (or one of his unarmed buddies) into him!
7) I would break a beer bottle!
8) I would use my beer bottle as a club!
9) I would plead for my life!
10) I would apologize for whatever offense I have commited!
11) Etc.

This illustrates my point that most people consider altercations as duels and not dynamically variable!

[Knifefighter]

All very good points!! I reiterate I have already stated "training is better than no training". I merely attempt to caution against over-confidence BECAUSE of our training and the out of hand disregard for seemingly impractical applications. Our greatest weakness is our presumption of safety! Something that appears impractical today MAY save our life tomorrow. Sometimes it is the unexpected or unconventional that creates the opening or opportunity necessary to ensure our surrival.
Scott-
Those of us who train realistically have no overconfidence issues. We are most likely more scared of the blade than those are in "training bubbles" because we know exactly how hard this stuff is to apply against a real live opponent..

Anyone who is "confident" against a live blade held by someone with bad intent is stupid. I've been through a couple of real edged weapon things and have done years and years of training. I'm definitely not "confident" of coming out alive in any empty-handed encounter against a blade.

The only confidence I have is in knowing that the techniques that I have access to have the highest percentage for me of "dying less often' based on training (and a little real world experience) that is as realistic as I can make it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Funny you bring that up...we have actually had police officers train with us because the training provided for them was inadequate. My Sifu has also designed curriculum for reality based training used by various law enforcement and corretions professionals.

An ambush is the worst scenario. I suppose only awareness of your surroundings and a good case of paranoia will prevent that!:D

This is very true!

There is the thought that with the risk of injury, the availability of pepper spray. batons, firearms, and liability problems that phsyical intervention is to be avoided whenever possible.

[Knifefighter]

Not one person has mentioned anything along the lines of:

1) I would pick up a chair!
2) I would throw a plate, beer bottle, pepper shaker, etc.!
3) I would pull out my gun and shoot him!
4) I would thrust him with a broom!
5) I would run over him with car!
6) I would throw an innocent bystander (or one of his unarmed buddies) into him!
7) I would break a beer bottle!
8) I would use my beer bottle as a club!
9) I would plead for my life!
10) I would apologize for whatever offense I have commited!
11) Etc.
Scott-

Have you bothered to read the whole thread?

From page one:


Ideally, one has seen the blade beforehand and has time to make space, use barriers, draw ones own weapon and/or grab an improvised one.

[Knifefighter]

Ok KF so what you are telling me is that YOU HAVE done demos where the opponent has attacked you full on with a sharp 6" blade?
Hahahahaha.... I knew this would get you guys going.

Nope... I've demonstrated disarms (or stripping of the knife from the hand) using the technique described from various control positions. I can do this on anyone with pretty much any blade once the control position is established. I have rarely been cut more than superficially.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott-
Those of us who train realistically have no overconfidence issues. We are most likely more scared of the blade than those are in "training bubbles" because we know exactly how hard this stuff is to apply against a real live opponent..

Anyone who is "confident" against a live blade held by someone with bad intent is stupid. I've been through a couple of real edged weapon things and have done years and years of training. I'm definitely not "confident" of coming out alive in any empty-handed encounter against a blade.

The only confidence I have is in knowing that the techniques that I have access to have the highest percentage for me of "dying less often' based on training (and a little real world experience) that is as realistic as I can make it.

I agree with focusing training on the "highest percentage" techniques, but I disagree with the criticism that sitting on the floor and kicking the legs, one punch knock outs and attacking the empty hand or arm are ludicris practices. It is the circumstance that should dicate the response. Therefore, to me, NO response is entirely ludicris or to be disregarded.

To negate viable responses is not a wise teaching practice. It would have been more productive to dicuss circumstances where these response might be a viable alternative. If we only view encounters as duels we train our minds to be prepared for fixed, anticipated forms of attack and we become unprepared for REAL WORLD encounters! In my experience, REAL LIFE rarely follows the circumstances of formalized training. It is the creative mind that finds spontanious solutions to circumstances that have not complied with our fixed training protocols.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott-

Have you bothered to read the whole thread?

From page one:

My apologies! Yes I have read from the beginning! I clearly overlooked or forgot your post!

Good Points!!;)

[David Jamieson]

Here is a simple concept

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiHQVeruW3E

[Knifefighter]

Oh yeah, so far the only video I've seen in regards to this by any poster is that of my Sifu. Why doesn't somebody else put something up of themselves and their techniques?:cool:
Your sifu's video is nowhere close to reality.

Did you go to the Dog Bros site and look at the various videos there? I'm pretty sure some of the fight footage has some knife stuff.
That is close to what reality is like.
What we are doing there is close to what real hand-held weapons fighting is like.

[David Jamieson]

dog brothers is the likely place to find examples of rbsd drawn from trad arts that are reasonable survivability wise.

they work in a pressurized environment. This is key to understanding.

too bad they cost so much lol.

[WinterPalm]

One Dog Bro video had some knife stuff in it but it was blurred out as I mentioned in the other thread.

Again, the stuff in Sifu's video's are basic defenses against basic attacks. We train against a wide variety of knife attacks and so far no other poster has put themselves up to show them catching swords in their teeth, cornering themselves and fighting from the ground, etc.

On that last note, we have a ground fighting componenet to our training and that involves various takedowns from the ground and standing. I remember an old student who was quite good at this and we would spar with one guy on the ground and the other guy standing and he could hook my legs and take me down thus enabling him to get up. The idea was he got put there and not by choice such as laying agains the wall.

[Knifefighter]

I agree with focusing training on the "highest percentage" techniques, but I disagree with the criticism that sitting on the floor and kicking the legs, one punch knock outs and attacking the empty hand or arm are ludicris practices. It is the circumstance that should dicate the response. Therefore, to me, NO response is entirely ludicris or to be disregarded.
Scott-
I'm one of the guys ADVOCATING the floor kicking technique because I have found it to be a higher percentage move that helps one to "die less often".

As far as the one punch knockout, it is low percentage and dangerous (which is even worse), except for one instance (and anyone who has trained realistically will know this)... right before the opponent accesses his weapon. You will notice that the "one punch KO" pundits have not brought this point out before precisely because they aren't actually training this stuff live. The one punch KO is higher percentage and safely applied during this time, but one will only know that if he trains it live. After the weapon is accessed the OPKO becomes a liability to the person trying to utilize it.

[Knifefighter]

One Dog Bro video had some knife stuff in it but it was blurred out as I mentioned in the other thread.
Look through some of the other videos for live fights.

[David Jamieson]

wp-

there is not a heavy ground component in the system.
what your style has is short and mid range attacks that are highly usable.
There's throws in there too, in your chin na stuff that i used with success in sanda classes. I'd use that in a elevator anyday over any other maretial art i've studied.

knife material was few and far between.

rolling was non-existant in a real measurable way.

speak to the strengths of what you do. The ground is not where it's at in that style.

all styles cannot be all things.

[Knifefighter]

I'd use that in a elevator anyday
You mean WP trains in "elevator style" kung fu?

[The Xia]

Yeah that was funny, sort of:rolleyes: But you know as i think back in history and the clothing that people wore way back when it would seem viable that back THEN people had better means of defending against attacks like that, simply because the upper class and warrior class of people in all walks of culture had SOME sortof protective armour on that tied into the fashions of the day. Like Leather fore arm guards and thick leather vests and such. Too bad we cant do that today without looking like a ren fest geek;) or a dungeon and dragons Geek(which is pretty much the same thing):D

So WHAT ABOUT The SAI??? I mean i carry one in my truck along WITH a pretty decent knife as well. Although i wish i had the Tom Brown Knife. what a wicked and practical blade to have.

http://www.onestopknifeshop.com/images/tops/tps-tbt.jpg Here it is. nothing rivals this thing. Tom knows his sh!t and knows how to make it well.
Anyone ever READ "The Tracker"? Great Book.

TWS

I do see your point that people in the past could wear more defensive attire without looking like a basketcase. But if a modern person wants to get "nuts" he can wear a bulletproof vest under the shirt (or even chainmail lol). There are things one can do. The problem with weapons is really the legality. Take nunchaku for example. If you get really good with them you've got yourself a great, versatile weapon thats easily concealable. It also has more reach then one might assume. Unfortunately, it is illegal to even own them in many places.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott-
I'm one of the guys ADVOCATING the floor kicking technique because I have found it to be a very high percentage move that helps one to "die less often".

As far as the one punch knockout, it is low percentage, except for one instance (and anyone who has trained realistically will know this)... right before the opponent accesses his weapon. You will notice that the "one punch KO" pundits have not brought this point out before precisely because they aren't actually training this stuff live. The one punch KO is higher percentage and safely applied during this time, but one will only know that if he trains it live. After the weapon is accessed the OPKO becomes a liability to the person trying to utilize it.

RE: One punch knock out

Your comment is only pertinent if one is attempting to avoid receiving any injury altogether. If one does not run away, is unable to create distance or discover a useful implement they WILL be injured anyway! Sometimes it is necessary to take an injury in order to give a worse injury in return!

It also depends upon the circumstance and the ability of the knife wielder! The assessment of the wielders ability may be correct or incorrect. Ones impression of their own ability in contrast to that of the attacker may be correct or incorrect as well! This is part of the dynamic of REAL fighting!

One could just as easily say that nearly all physcially interactive defenses against a knife attack are low percentage if one is seeking to avoid injury. One must practice any form of response they intend to use against a knife wielder if they wish for it to be effective. It appears pretty clear that practicing a "one punch" knock out would be effective not only against a knife wielder, but most forms of weaponless attack and some weaponed attacks. Therefore, it becomes a high percentage technique to practice.

My comments concerning the floor defense are not necessarily directed at you. They are part of my collective criticism towards narrow thinking and fixed percpetion of how a knife attack will unfold and the out right disregard by some for unconventional repsonses.

[David Jamieson]

You mean WP trains in "elevator style" kung fu?
lol, no. What I'm saying is that I spent 6 and a half years or so studying under the tutalage of wp's sifu and the short and mid range black tiger and the sil lum he teaches is top notch.

I think that wp is speaking to things that are not the emphasis in the style and it will trip him up eventually.

pride is a silly thing. But I can understand why one would come to the defense of their sifu when they see someone else making light of them.

Mr.Cameron is a highly skilled sil lum kungfu practitioner and teacher.
The style he teaches is thoroughly effective in short and mid range stand up fighting.

it has some throws and he tries to touch on many things, but the focus is what the fcus is.

Now, I've changed up a lot of what I do over the last 5 years but I still retain those components from Mr.Camerons system that I could make work for me and some of the more esoteric stuff that I find has benefits.

the rbsd stuff i do now is all from different source though and my sparring has utterly changed.

[The Xia]

On the one punch knockout thing-This can occur if one applies the proper amount of power to the right area, right time, etc. But to have a truelly great punch you gotta condition your fist. Take Pan Qing Fu for example, that guy goes full power into someone's head he'll be lucky if he is just knocked out.

[WinterPalm]

Lol. Jamieson, Jamieson, Jamieson...tsk, tsk, tsk.

Why don't you share with the class how much of the Black Tiger curriculum you learned? Let's just take empty hand stuff...GungLikKuen..DaKuen...BokHocKuen...

That's three out of eight. Not bad as I know you also learned some weapons and some northern shaolin.

However, you did not study many of the sets and the other training regimens involved.
I said ground fighting, and yes there is ground fighting in our system and there is even a set that builds ground fighting skills...I did not say grappling in the wrestling or jiujitsu sense as it is not within our system. We address the ground, the standup, and the inbetween.

If we were to argue the transition from a kimura to a rolling armbar back to a can-opener then yes, I would be lost as to the techniques and the execution...but I didn't mention any of that stuff.

Sifu teaches a lot...and unfortunately it has come back to this as it always tends to with you...and more often than not, it is us (well not you and I but myself and my fellow students) to work on the techniques, to practice them, to work them out under our understanding and then refine them under the tutelage of a master whom we study under. I won't ever expect to enter and win a grappling tournament as it is not my thing and not what I train for.

The Elevator Kuen is only taught to closed inner door students that have completed the Drunken KimJongIll Staff set.:D

[David Jamieson]

Lol. Jamieson, Jamieson, Jamieson...tsk, tsk, tsk.

Why don't you share with the class how much of the Black Tiger curriculum you learned? Let's just take empty hand stuff...GungLikKuen..DaKuen...BokHocKuen...

That's three out of eight. Not bad as I know you also learned some weapons and some northern shaolin.

However, you did not study many of the sets and the other training regimens involved.
I said ground fighting, and yes there is ground fighting in our system and there is even a set that builds ground fighting skills...I did not say grappling in the wrestling or jiujitsu sense as it is not within our system. We address the ground, the standup, and the inbetween.

If we were to argue the transition from a kimura to a rolling armbar back to a can-opener then yes, I would be lost as to the techniques and the execution...but I didn't mention any of that stuff.

Sifu teaches a lot...and unfortunately it has come back to this as it always tends to with you...and more often than not, it is us (well not you and I but myself and my fellow students) to work on the techniques, to practice them, to work them out under our understanding and then refine them under the tutelage of a master whom we study under. I won't ever expect to enter and win a grappling tournament as it is not my thing and not what I train for.

The Elevator Kuen is only taught to closed inner door students that have completed the Drunken KimJongIll Staff set.:D


guy, don't get me started. and don't provoke me. I don't have a problem with speaking my mind if you get my inference and if you wanna start talk shyte and throwing crap around I could say a lot of things about it.

take the face and be happy with it and keep your assisnine comments to yourself.

[Knifefighter]

!

One could just as easily say that nearly all physcially interactive defenses against a knife attack are low percentage if one is seeking to avoid injury..
Exactly... hence the term, "die less often."

Any empty handed technique is relatively low percetage against a knife. The trick to to at least raise the percentage up so that one has a greater probability of surviving.

Punching against an unarmed opponent has relatively few negative repurcusions. Punching against a knife gets you stabbed a very large percentage of the time. Much more often than some of the other options one has.

[Knifefighter]

Here is a simple concept
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiHQVeruW3E
Closer to realistic using the two on one approach (not an underhook as it was referred to in the clip) that some people have been working on. The big weakness of this control is the opponent's ability to switch hands.

[Water Dragon]

I don't like these threads. They give people who have never seen someone get cut bad ideas. Like the idea that they have a chance against a knife. A knife is an offensive weapon you use when you're outnumbered and are ready to kill someone. If someone pulls a knife on me, I'mrunning until I can get some bricks which I will throw at the other guys head and then keep running.

My personal opinion is that defense against a knife is so low percentage, that you you shouldn't even bother training it. Offensive use is a different story.

[David Jamieson]

I don't like these threads. They give people who have never seen someone get cut bad ideas. Like the idea that they have a chance against a knife. A knife is an offensive weapon you use when you're outnumbered and are ready to kill someone. If someone pulls a knife on me, I'mrunning until I can get some bricks which I will throw at the other guys head and then keep running.

My personal opinion is that defense against a knife is so low percentage, that you you shouldn't even bother training it. Offensive use is a different story.

Dude, I think we've exhausted saying that escape is the #1 option when copnfronted with a blade. what we are talking about here besides the crapfest-o-rama stuff is that if you are forced to deal with it, then some basic concept of what to do is better than no concept at all.

kf- agreed on the switch knife. I believe he mentions that. Points that are covered

1.escape is the best option
2.you will likely get cut
3.break structure and then look for disarm.

disarm is a seperate component and seeing as simple concept can easily be lost here, Im not gonna post any of that.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Knifefighter,

There are still some flaws in your view.

First of all it presumes that someone who punches a knife wielder is ONLY intending to punch. I am sure you are well aware that a skilled fighter attacks the targets of opportunity. Targets of opportunity present themselves any number of ways, through inadequate skill, inadequate execution of technique, accidental occurrence, drawing an error or a specific response by the defender through feinting, etc. If one categorizes their options according to semi-arbitrary values of probable effectiveness they are likely to not consider perfectly viable responses when opportunity knocks. This also means they are not likely to consider being attacked in what they may arbitrarily consider to be ineffective means. When one is at risk for great bodily injury or death all options should be considered viable. Whatever opportunity presents, take!

As an example, in a past discussion between us I proposed the option of using a pen or pencil as an eye stabbing implement in a self defense circumstance. You voiced the opinion that it is an action with a low probability of success, a view I disagree with. Since you view it as a low success probability attack you become at greater risk for having this technique used effectively against you. Your limited view creates your weakness and makes you vulnerable. This is the over confidence of which I have previously spoken.

Long understood principles of strategy teach us to discern the opponents’ strengths, weaknesses and fighting strategy then attack their weakness, where they are least likely to expect it, and when they are least likely to expect it on ground most favorable to your strategy and tactics. A significant weakness one may have is to discount an attack one considers improbable. For example, what may be believed to be an un-scalable cliff or what is considered an impregnable castle would be considered a strength from the view of a defender, but it is also its greatest weakness. What we consider our greatest strength becomes our greatest weakness because we are lulled into a false sense of security when considering our own strengths and vulnerabilities. Considering and effectively executing this principle is why Morgan the Pirate was successful when he attacked the Spanish cities near Panama. The Spanish considered their cities so fortified and impregnable that no one would consider attacking them. This is also how Alexander the Great defeated just about everyone he fought.

When you couple effective intelligence, strategy and tactics with fearlessness and audacity, apparent foolish actions become successful execution of strategy. When one engages in a knife fight without a corresponding weapon to use they must assume that they will be injured and be willing to risk injury if they wish to survive. They may also consider that the knife wielder will consider himself to be in superior position (thus presenting a weaknesses). When defending it is best to attempt to draw a specific attack from the assailant; an attack that one is prepared to counter. However, there is no guarantee the wished for response will occur, that the counter will not be anticipated or, if not anticipated, that the counter will be successful. If this occurs then the possibility an unforeseen target of opportunity will present itself. Herein rests the opportunity for an unanticipated and unconventional form of attack. Twist an ear, bite the nose or throat, head butt, drive a finger, thumb or pencil into the eye, stomp the shin or foot, yank the head back by grasping the hair, kick the knee, strike to the temple (one punch knock out) or throat, etc. None of these may be considered a “high probability of success” tactic prior to engagement, however during engagement one takes the opportunity that presents itself if one is wishes to survive.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, Crafty Dog's knife arm control, though blurred out, looks exactly like a standard non-compliant aikido randori ikkyou principle tech to me...

ducks under cover, runs like the clappers s******ing

True though.

EDIT: sniggahing... END CENSORSHIP NOW!

[The Willow Sword]

I agree whole heartedly with your post and i think it is the most intelligent post here.

I will add that i dont feel that a knife attack is going to be some controlled thing that one can utilize exact techniques drilled in controlled situations. sure it gives one an idea, but i have seen a few actual knife attack vids and in all instances the attack is so wild and uncontrolled, giving the attacker an advantage, a BIG advantage. the stabs just keep coming and coming and coming and coming and coming.
I say if you are attacked with a knife, you do as much as you possible can with all your training and will and you KILL that other person(by whatever means necessary), because when it comes right down to it. its is your life. Screw the law. LIFE is more important.


TWS

[Knifefighter]

As an example, in a past discussion between us I proposed the option of using a pen or pencil as an eye stabbing implement in a self defense circumstance. You voiced the opinion that it is an action with a low probability of success, a view I disagree with.
Hey Scott,

I'm not sure what the context was regarding that, but I believe a weapon always increases the odds of doing damage. A pen in the hand is more dangerous than an empty hand, to the eye or anywhere.

Maybe I was on drugs that day.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TWS,

Yes, I agree! Most knife fights I have witnessed occurred similar to your experience as well. That is why I have tried to caution against the knife fight as a duel perspective that it appears many appear to be considering here.

I am a student two diametrically opposed schools of Kenjutsu strategy.

One is the Yagyu Shinkage School that tends towards receptive stances in order to draw out specific attacks that are then responded too. This form of fighting is conducive to most duel like events, but may require severe modification and innovation when faced with a wild, committed and overwhelming form of attack.

The other is proposed and was successfully executed by Miyamoto Musashi which tends toward overwhelming and unconventional attacks. This is the sort of attack that is frequently used by the criminals I have observed.

To me each has its place according to the circumstance. If I were attacked by a knife wielder I would not tend towards tying up and controlling forms of response; I would tend towards an incapacitating response. This form of response may carry with it inherently greater risks, but once the opponent realizes that even if he wins he may still lose, it creates what the Japanese refer to as “Suki” a break in concentration that results in a reduction in the commitment of attack and creates a hesitancy that provides targets of opportunity.

Most individuals seek to attack and win while sustaining the least amount of damage to themselves. However, the greatest Samurai realized that to survive in a life or death circumstance one must not be preoccupied with maintaining their own safety, but be entirely focused on defeating the enemy regardless of ones own safety. They discovered that this frame of mind resulted in a higher chance of survivability. This is because the “Suki” created within oneself when preoccupied with ones own life and limb divides the concentration and creates dangerous pauses in reaction time!

[Scott R. Brown]

Maybe I was on drugs that day.

LOL!! We all have our bad days! Of course I could be remembering the conversation incorrectly too! I have already done that once today! ;)

I work nights and only got two hours sleep today. My sons woke me up! I was suprised to see such a lively discussion during normal business hours. Then when I decided to work out I pulled my hamstring. Something I havent done in over ten years!:mad:

Thank you for a most simulating conversation today!:)

[Yum Cha]

I've done it for free numerous times.
Like I said, most people are clueless- otherwise this wouldn't surprise you.

I for one saw a G.I. try the palm capture with a Buck Hunter once (the knife that made Charles Manson famous), didn't work, palm cut side to side. That was for just $10 bucks.

One of those "resisting opponents" everybody is talking about....

Than again, maybe he had sweaty palms....

I always liked this one. Gerber MkII, nice and long, good hilt,

http://www.bellum.nu/armoury/GMkII.html

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.onestopknifeshop.com/images/tops/tps-tbt.jpg

I am STILL wanting to get an idea from experienced people here about this knife. the Tom Brown Tracker survival knife, albeit that it has more functional use than just a killing weapon.

But is something i have had my eye on for a while now. ALSO what do people here think about this vid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo


im not sure what to think about this one. i can see certain aspects of this that MAY be helpful, and of course i found the role playing comments funny as hell.
Oh and YUM CHA? I used to have a knife like that but it was stolen from me.
TWS

[Knifefighter]

I for one saw a G.I. try the palm capture with a Buck Hunter once (the knife that made Charles Manson famous), didn't work, palm cut side to side. That was for just $10 bucks.

LOL.... this is far from capturing or chasing or grabbing a freely moving blade.

Like I told Scott, most people don't understand the principle he was referring to- even after he has told them.

Like I said, once people see it, it's always the same- "Oh yeah, that makes sense. I never thought of that."

I knew this would get folks going.

[Knifefighter]

ALSO what do people here think about this vid?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo
THAT is realistic training and pretty much the way it goes down. While these guys aren’t world beaters in terms of technique, they are spot on with their training and they will get better with time, especially if they learn some grappling and groundfighting principles. Good to see others doing pressure testing.

This is exactly the type of alive training I have been advocating. This is what you need to do to pressure test your stuff to see what works and what doesn’t. If you have not done training just like this but are espousing empty hand vs. knife techniques, you are living in a bubble. I'd be very surpised if WP and some of the other "deadly strikes/break their bones/crush their throats/throw on a chi na hold" crowd has done this type of training.

Anyone who wants to increase their chances of handling a knife attack should watch this video and emulate this type and intensity of training.

The second video in the list, "Realistic Knife Scenarios", while not quite full out, gives some good insights into what an attack by a committed knifer looks like.

Good stuff… Kudos to these guys.

[WinterPalm]

guy, don't get me started. and don't provoke me. I don't have a problem with speaking my mind if you get my inference and if you wanna start talk shyte and throwing crap around I could say a lot of things about it.

take the face and be happy with it and keep your assisnine comments to yourself.


Oops...:D

With all the nonsense surrounding many schools of kung fu I feel it necessary to correct assisnine comments regarding the style I train in. I think you will agree with what I've said of Black Tiger?

[Yum Cha]

LOL.... this is far from capturing or chasing or grabbing a freely moving blade.

Like I told Scott, most people don't understand the principle he was referring to- even after he has told them.

Like I said, once people see it, it's always the same- "Oh yeah, that makes sense. I never thought of that."

I knew this would get folks going.

It was kinda funny...

It started with, I bet you $10 I can grab a hold of your blade, and you can't get it free. He grabbed the blade, said OK, and the guy pulled it straight out. LOL. It was kinda funny at the time, they guy pretended nothing happened, but the blood flowing out of his fist kinda gave it away....excuse me while I run down to the infirmary for a few stitches...and perhaps even an article 15..

I believe the principle was that the friction and grip from the hand would make it impossible to move the blade, and that as long as it didn't move, it couldn't cut. In all fairness, I have the sneaking suspicion it was his first try at doing the trick...

[David Jamieson]

Oops...:D

With all the nonsense surrounding many schools of kung fu I feel it necessary to correct assisnine comments regarding the style I train in. I think you will agree with what I've said of Black Tiger?

I don't agree with everything you've said about it no.

Dave, you and me don't know each other and frankly, who gives a whoop.
Your sifu and me don't get along as is plain to see.
Im tired of having to rebut to you or to WC every time I say something.

You guys can';t negate what I got and you can't negate all the changes that suddenly happen and you can't negate all the stuff that's gone on.

Best we stay on topic and not tell tall tales about what the school does or does not do. It's good kungfu, WC is a competent teacher, he doesn't have all the answers and his curriculum is not superior to anyone elses. Same as the rest fo the world.

I was there for quite a few years and you try to make it sound like I wasn't there at all. YOu don't have a clue what I did for your sifu and that school in my time there. You don't understand one small iota about the whole situation that occured.
This of course is total bullsh1t.

Guy, my experience there and what I learned is as valid as anyone anywhere.
You think that after all that time things are so radically different? They're not.

So if you wanna butt heads about it and talk shyte, lets do it, Im ready, maybe your sifu Goild horse dragon could come on and make some remarks? Or has he had enough of this stuff the you have a habit of provoking and starting with comments towards me and falsehoods about what you do in that school?

[CFT]

KF you tease! Are you going to tell us or what? :p
First you bet money and then you tell us you've shown it for free ...

From your previous post you seem to have set the conditions under which it will work, i.e. you have control of the knife arm and therefore they cannot pull on the blade.

The next is speculation on my part. Does it rely it the same principles as the "tricksters" who use katanas to cut melons balanced on people's bellies? i.e. as long as the blade is applied perpendicular to the body then it will not penetrate, but if the blade is dragged then the cut is made?

[Knifefighter]

From your previous post you seem to have set the conditions under which it will work, i.e. you have control of the knife arm and therefore they cannot pull on the blade.
Yep.


The next is speculation on my part. Does it rely it the same principles as the "tricksters" who use katanas to cut melons balanced on people's bellies? i.e. as long as the blade is applied perpendicular to the body then it will not penetrate, but if the blade is dragged then the cut is made?
You're getting close, but it's not a trick.;)

[hung-le]

Its possible I misinterpreted hung-le's post, however, looking back at it, it seems to me he endorses finding a wall and "utilizing" it...Nevertheless, agreed, first choice is escape, that should be tantamount at all times and I just figured it was a given.


Yes…PLUM....My First choice is always escape and I thought it so logical it was a given,,,,,


Are you serious?

Yes..... Winterpalm I am serious...oh...so very serious...what we all are talking about is surviving an assault by someone using deadly force.

Knocking someone out is a very high percentage risk when facing a knife attack…….and assumes much e.g. he’s not on blow etc…he’s a wimp

There are many fatalities were law enforcement officers actually shot the perpetrator and still were killed. If anything the perpetrator will be having an adrenaline rush… Who here has more knockout power than a 9 mm bullet ? It’s extremely rare to see two boxers walk up to each other and one guy lands a knockout while never having been hit… The knife can be a one shot ..One kill situation. Let’s not forget that…….And with many of these knife-wielding thugs it is a “do or die mentality” they are trying to kill you at all cost. Who here is willing to trade blows with a guy who is willing to take your best just to stab you hopefully in the heart or throat…(a thug is many things but he’s no fool, ..He knows that with his weapon he's the equal of any man "if not for a split second…" Or so he believes…and all he’s got to do is stab you in the right place…to prove it…) again, it’s a one shot situation!!



However there are some high survival rate techniques you can train in

I wrote in the “Style vs User” thread (which helped spawn this thread)


The deadly force factor of a blade just scrambles the hand to hand equation in all different directions What often works normally doesn’t when a knife is added to the mix..

We are not talking hand-to-hand tactics, but blade to hand tactics…some here think they are both the same......there is a huge distinction, just as there is a huge distinction between self defense and sport fighting

If stuck in a bar and the knife-wielding thug is between you and the door.

Who here is stupid enough to try to punch and kick thru him to get to the door? If you are, reality tells us a good percentage of you are going to bleed to death in the parking lot. The rest are getting maimed. Remember in any knife fight you are trying to survive, to survive is to win…you are not trying to defeat him…or take him out..."that's macho BS....you want to take him out you go get a shotgun...!

The Backing up against a wall ....be it in an alcove, closet, wherever...etc…. to cut down the angles of attack and kicking at the attacker and letting (hopefully….) your shoes and your shins take most of the damage (till help arrives) is one such unorthodox technique. Unorthodox to people who are not in the know, orthodox to people who are…

Bringing a stout coat but never wearing it in a public place is just another orthodox self-defense tactic. Having a leather jacket in your hands when attacked by a knife can help save your life. If permitted, you can use it as a shield by hastily wrapping it around your hands On the fly you can throw it to blind the attacker giving you valuable time to attack or flee. You can use it as an ad-hock net to ensnare the knife, going for control, You can even use it as a whip to blind or distract him etc…etc… the coat has multiple uses if trained in it… highly useful and highly realistic … (the coat held by the collar is especially useful if you also have a knife but those techniques are another thread……


Again, My personal opinion through my training experience is that one has to control the knife, if in close (grappling is best IMO) but in conjunction with the plethora of knife fighting tactics available…. not just the few I have listed here….

Note…those of you who do a martial art that doesn’t per say “grapple” many if not all of the type of tactics I’m talking about will be effective for you too..

I know I can beat the hell out of a guy with my coat over his head….LOL

[WinterPalm]

I don't agree with everything you've said about it no.

Dave, you and me don't know each other and frankly, who gives a whoop.
Your sifu and me don't get along as is plain to see.
Im tired of having to rebut to you or to WC every time I say something.

You guys can';t negate what I got and you can't negate all the changes that suddenly happen and you can't negate all the stuff that's gone on.

Best we stay on topic and not tell tall tales about what the school does or does not do. It's good kungfu, WC is a competent teacher, he doesn't have all the answers and his curriculum is not superior to anyone elses. Same as the rest fo the world.

I was there for quite a few years and you try to make it sound like I wasn't there at all. YOu don't have a clue what I did for your sifu and that school in my time there. You don't understand one small iota about the whole situation that occured.
This of course is total bullsh1t.

Guy, my experience there and what I learned is as valid as anyone anywhere.
You think that after all that time things are so radically different? They're not.

So if you wanna butt heads about it and talk shyte, lets do it, Im ready, maybe your sifu Goild horse dragon could come on and make some remarks? Or has he had enough of this stuff the you have a habit of provoking and starting with comments towards me and falsehoods about what you do in that school?


This is what I said

However, you did not study many of the sets and the other training regimens involved.
I said ground fighting, and yes there is ground fighting in our system and there is even a set that builds ground fighting skills...I did not say grappling in the wrestling or jiujitsu sense as it is not within our system. We address the ground, the standup, and the inbetween.

If we were to argue the transition from a kimura to a rolling armbar back to a can-opener then yes, I would be lost as to the techniques and the execution...but I didn't mention any of that stuff.

Sifu teaches a lot...and unfortunately it has come back to this as it always tends to with you...and more often than not, it is us (well not you and I but myself and my fellow students) to work on the techniques, to practice them, to work them out under our understanding and then refine them under the tutelage of a master whom we study under. I won't ever expect to enter and win a grappling tournament as it is not my thing and not what I train for.

In response to you saying this:

I think that wp is speaking to things that are not the emphasis in the style and it will trip him up eventually.

pride is a silly thing. But I can understand why one would come to the defense of their sifu when they see someone else making light of them.


Which was your rebuttal to this statement which I still stand behind:

On that last note, we have a ground fighting componenet to our training and that involves various takedowns from the ground and standing. I remember an old student who was quite good at this and we would spar with one guy on the ground and the other guy standing and he could hook my legs and take me down thus enabling him to get up.


And your reply was this:

wp-

there is not a heavy ground component in the system.
what your style has is short and mid range attacks that are highly usable.
There's throws in there too, in your chin na stuff that i used with success in sanda classes. I'd use that in a elevator anyday over any other maretial art i've studied.

knife material was few and far between.

rolling was non-existant in a real measurable way.

speak to the strengths of what you do. The ground is not where it's at in that style.

And as I've said above, we do not focus on the ground. We have takedowns, we have ground techniques...pins, escapes, disarms, etc. This is not a huge component but to say that somehow in a discussion like this I will trip myself up is plain false. Like I said above, I will not discuss the finer points to jiujitsu or wrestling because I do not know them. But I will discuss and converse on what I do know from ground fighting which I have learned from my Sifu. And stuff I have tested against fully resisting opponents both with and without knives in a controlled environment.

When you say something derogatory, false, or made up about our school or our style, that is when I will rebut you as you tried to do in post #109 when you talked about our groundfighting training. Again, if I said that those techniques would win the abu dhabi, then that would be false but I said nothing of the sort.

It is like you are waiting to rebut me or contradict what I say...the way you do it, however, shows through as most things slip away in their inaccuracies.

That is that.
You do not know what goes on in the school and so you cannot comment to that.

I suppose stuff like this will continue to happen, but I'll only involve myself when it is directly addressed to me and I will finish my points.

I won't attack you personally as I do not know you. But I will address what you say when it concerns my school, Sifu, classmates, or myself, and the way you conduct yourself in reference to those subjects.

You'd do the same if you had a Sifu and some old student starting slandering the style, school, and people involved on the world wide web...it's what friends, comrades, and families do for each other...support.

[Crushing Fist]

great post hung...


I have to say I totally agree.


as for the bar scenario...


I'd go out the back door :D


but seriously


I think I would pick up a chair, or a table if they had those tall skinny ones.


The jacket is a good plan.

If I can't get away, and there is absolutely nothing I can put in my hand, then what?

so far we have control the knife arm followed by disarm/choke/break


let us not forget BITE

natural weapon there


once the knife hand is somewhat controlled what is everyone's opinion on low kicks/knees at the knee/groin?

my opinion favors this, and I feel that it falls into that category of "remove structure"

depending on the position I can see headbutts as well

perhaps followed by biting :)

[WinterPalm]

Hung le,
I agree with most of your points and improvisation can be the key to survival.

When I talk about striking I don't mean punching and kicking and trying to keep my distance. I'm talking about controlling the knife wielding hand and striking at the same time...possibly in unison or not. Without a doubt restraint and control are imperative...this can be done in many different ways.
Backing into a wall and sliding onto the floor is not something that seems very practical...be on top when you go to the ground.

But we are all training in different arts with different approaches and if that one works for you then you must be doing something right!

One hit stops may work. But why throw one elbow to the temple and hope that does the trick when you can toss out five or six?

[WinterPalm]

How about we change the angle here for a moment?

What about producing your own knife? How do you train for this?

[hung-le]

Yes, to all you touched upon Crushing fist...But I’m talking tactics you can take anywhere not just a bar. .You will always have your coat (in a parking lot of a movie theater, the mail, the club etc…) You can put your back up against a car or truck …etc… We don’t want to relay on a chair being there…

Winterpalm these are not improvisation…these are tactics and techniques that you train ….tactics that require skill hence practice…

And I agree ....you got to do what works for you...if that's what you are training to do...DO IT! make it work...

If I’m facing a guy with a knife, I’m drawing my blade and grabbing my coat. I’ve trained with a coat to act as a shield, a whip and a snare…my blade will dance in and out, in between my coat , both my coat and my knife will act as my defense and offense An example, the coat flipped like a matadors cape or like a large fan can mask my attack angle as well as my body movement …hence the way you grip the coat at the collar....

[The Willow Sword]

How about we change the angle here for a moment?
What about producing your own knife? How do you train for this?

In my opinion you should NOT draw a knife in a confrontation Unless it is absolutely necessary. We all have a certain amount of self respect and respect for life in general(unless you are just a low life peice of cr@p) So i would think that a knife Or a gun should not be drawn unless you truly feel your life to be in total Jeapordy.

If they have a knife and you have a knife? well i dont know, seems like both are going to get cut up pretty bad and one is going to the cemetary and one is going to the hospital. You can train in knife combat by taking Kali(if there is a school like that near you). Most schools train in defense of knives which all seem to agree here that it is giving people a false sense of security. but just about all these school will have some sort of knife fighting training. I have some training in Kali knife tactics that i recieved outside of the school setting(from family) but that is about it. as for defense of a knife. most of what i have learned deals with the use of a longer weapon and specifically that of the SAI( i was asking about the sai earlier but on-one seemed to want to comment on it).

Id love to take more knife fighting tactics because i think that the more you know about how knife fighters fight the better you will be able to deal with them(maybe) who knows?

TWS

[David Jamieson]

wp- whatever. as far as Im concerned you're full of it.
Show me where i slandered your stuff?

would it be when I said your sifu was a compitent teacher or when I said the style he teaches was highly usable? :rolleyes:

go teach your granny to suck eggs, i put my time in at your school to the tune of black sash level + 2 levels of instructor certification, I think I have a reasonably good grasp of what happens there. Thanks for playing though. Not to mention, you start this thread with "this is the result of blah blah blah" which of course is highly uninformed and not what's going on at all in those pics. I think the big prison tatty of the panther on the back would be enough of a clue to tell you that's not a leo. Anyway, whatever dude, get over yourself.

back on topic.

Using a knife offensively is easy. Just hang onto it and shove it in or slash it across. There's a million attacks. But as said you gotta practice them in as reasonably a realistic scenario as possible.

[The Willow Sword]

:mad: HEY DAVID AND WINTERPALM?!!!!!! TAKE YOUR BULLSH!T TO ANOTHER THREAD and QUIT HIJACKING THIS ONE:mad: !!!!!!!

[Knifefighter]

What about producing your own knife? How do you train for this?

Watch the training video above. You will see numerous times when access could have been achieved.

Remember the down on the floor and using the legs as weapons/shields? There was one example of this on the video. This is one of the times available to draw.


How do you train for this?
Train in the same realistic manner as you saw in those videos.


When I talk about striking I don't mean punching and kicking and trying to keep my distance. I'm talking about controlling the knife wielding hand and striking at the same time.
One hit stops may work. But why throw one elbow to the temple and hope that does the trick when you can toss out five or six?
This is one of the reasons I don't believe your "sifu" disarmed a trained knife guy. A guy with even minimal knife training will cut you to smithereens if you try to control the blade hand with only one of your hands and try to hit with the other.

This is another technique I can easily demonstrate with just a simple training blade. I can let you grab my weapon hand and you can try to strike me as hard and as many times as you like with your other hand. I guarantee you I will have you completely sliced and diced before you can do any damage to me.

The only way you can shut this down is to maintain two-on-one control. Once you give that up, you will be history.

[Knifefighter]

:mad: HEY DAVID AND WINTERPALM?!!!!!! TAKE YOUR BULLSH!T TO ANOTHER THREAD and QUIT HIJACKING THIS ONE:mad: !!!!!!!
This is WP's thread.
The official International Rules of Internet Forum Posting (section 2.1.13) stipulate that he can take in any direction he chooses.

[The Willow Sword]

yeah but he is polluting the thread with this pi$$ing match with david and it is taking away from the decent parts of this thread.

I say the NEW mandate is that if you start a thread and then later on you manipulate it into a personal pi$$ing match with some internet rival then you deserve to have your nostrils hooked through with a hook designed for sailfish and then attached to a speedboat and drug across the fukin LAKE!:mad:

whew that felt better,,TWS:o

[Knifefighter]

Nope... sorry.

The international rules have already been established at the world summit of 2002 in Geneva.

That's why each thread starter holds the nuclear option to that thread... remember WS can nuke all of the words we have posted with a touch of the master delete button and all our Bizarro World words will cease to be.

There are no changing the rules until the next summit in 2010.

[The Xia]

Yes, to all you touched upon Crushing fist...But I’m talking tactics you can take anywhere not just a bar. .You will always have your coat (in a parking lot of a movie theater, the mail, the club etc…) You can put your back up against a car or truck …etc… We don’t want to relay on a chair being there…

Winterpalm these are not improvisation…these are tactics and techniques that you train ….tactics that require skill hence practice…

And I agree ....you got to do what works for you...if that's what you are training to do...DO IT! make it work...

If I’m facing a guy with a knife, I’m drawing my blade and grabbing my coat. I’ve trained with a coat to act as a shield, a whip and a snare…my blade will dance in and out, in between my coat , both my coat and my knife will act as my defense and offense An example, the coat flipped like a matadors cape or like a large fan can mask my attack angle as well as my body movement …hence the way you grip the coat at the collar....

How would you have time to take your coat off if someone suddenly draws a knife with intent. A jacket doesn't exactly "whip right off". Even an unskilled weapon user can draw and use his weapon multiple times during the time it takes to remove a jacket. With all the time it'd take to remove the jacket, the person would be gutted like a fish. How do you account for this?

[Knifefighter]

How would you have time to take your coat off if someone suddenly draws a knife with intent. A jacket doesn't exactly "whip right off". Even an unskilled weapon user can draw and use his weapon multiple times during the time it takes to remove a jacket. With all the time it'd take to remove the jacket, the person would be gutted like a fish. How do you account for this?



Bringing a stout coat but never wearing it in a public place is just another orthodox self-defense tactic.

Bwahahahaha!

You guys are way too easy.

Hung Le and I are p3wning you with our hands tied behind our backs.

[Scott R. Brown]

My personal opinion through my training experience is that one has to control the knife, if in close (grappling is best IMO)

I agree with attempting to control the knife hand if possible. However the question is: how will one accomplish this?

We know that getting cut and stabbed is going to happen. If one attacks the knife hand or arm your risk for injury to your hand, arm and side increases. The opportunities for trapping the arm of a skilled fighter are limited! A skilled fighter will have trained to avoid this type of counter. As you rush in all he need do is slash across your face or neck. If he gets a good slash at your neck you will lose one hand to stop yourself from bleeding to death.

Having said this, responses by the defender will ALWAYS carry with them risks and every counter has a counter. So I do not completely discount your suggestion. It is just important to make a risk/benefit assessment as Knifefighter repeatedly proposes, then take your shot and hope for the best.

My position has always been to attack the head. Not with strikes however. The head is much less mobile than the arms. It is easier to get to the head than a fast moving arm or hand that can come at you from a different direction every second. Your attacker is intent on stabbing/slashing you. He is feeling secure because he has a weapon and you don’t. As I previously stated, this is one of his weaknesses. His intent to stab and slash leaves his head vulnerable to three forms of attack.

1- Finger or implement (pen, pencil, toothpick, etc.) jabs to the eyes. If you are successful it is likely the incident will abruptly end. The sooner you take out an eye the sooner the encounter will likely end and the less damage you will sustain. At the very least it will create an opportunity for escape.

2- To create distance on an opponent that is stabbing and slashing a straight arm to the chin and a strong shove pushes him back. If this is performed adequately it will create distance and tend to make the opponent lean backwards opening the abdomen for a strong strike to the solar plexus or stomach. Of course an experienced fighter will recover quickly so a counter attack must be immediate. A strong strike to the solar plexus will tend to end the encounter abruptly as well or create an opportunity for escape.

3- To control the person, grab the back of the neck or hair and pull straight down to the ground. Once the person is down, ride the back. Pull back on the hair, chin, underneath the nose or the eye sockets in order to keep the person from reaching back to stab or slash your leg. In this position his weight is being held up by his neck alone which is wrenched backwards so he will be required to use his hands for support. If you twist the face away from the knife hand his weight goes onto that side and he will be required to use that hand for support. If he continues to find a way to stab and slash break the neck or choke out as required.

If the assailant successfully resists your attempt to pull his head down he must have pulled his head back. If you release his head his momentum will be moving backwards revealing an exposed throat and abdomen for attack. Note that a skilled fighter may attempt to slash to ward you off since he is now vulnerable. This attack should be anticipated for now the knife arm will become available for trapping or may be parried or blocked in order to deliver a strike. I recommend a trap of course.

As the assailant is falling or moving backwards one of both of the legs may be attacked with kicks or a leg takedown. Once down twist the leg or ankle to bring the assailant onto his stomach. It is best to attempt to control his weak side (non-knife wielding side) leg. A leg lock or back ride may be used here. If you trap and lock his strong side leg you are open to continued stabbing or slashing.

As with any fight these moves are more easily stated than actually performed and will not be successful many times due to variation in terrain, obstacles, and the skill of the individuals involved, but then no response is without risk! I believe a head attack is more easily performed and the chance of “less” injury is enhanced if the head can be brought immediately to the ground.


I guarantee you I will have you completely sliced and diced before you can do any damage to me.

This is likely to happen anyway no matter what response one attempts. I know you propose moves with a higher percentage success rate, but you mention few specifics. I agree that attempting to control the arm while striking is risky, but then so it attempting to control the knife hand in the first place or any other form of response that is empty hand and involves being within reach of the knife or actual contact with the assailant.

If one is preoccupied with the controlling the knife hand then other opportunities may be missed. To take those opportunities one risks greater injury, but this occurs anyway when one attempts to control the knife arm in the first place. It basically comes down to the skill of the knife wielder against the skill of the defender.


How would you have time to take your coat off if someone suddenly draws a knife with intent. A jacket doesn't exactly "whip right off". Even an unskilled weapon user can draw and use his weapon multiple times during the time it takes to remove a jacket. With all the time it'd take to remove the jacket, the person would be gutted like a fish. How do you account for this?

We must not assume all encounters follow an identical progression. You will note that in the above posted training video, which is very good, all the attacks were identical. The students will learn to effectively defend against THAT form of attack, but they must train to defend against many different forms of attack that follow various progressions. If they are a serious school, which they appear to be, they will train against a variety of fight progressions. In some progressions a jacket may be available as well as chairs, brooms, beer mugs, trash can lids, etc. Effective training will at some point include various items as well as bare hand techniques. If one has not trained with various items one reduces their ability to use them effectively. So do not automatically discount any possibility!

[Yum Cha]

Knife in a bar is probably a lesser of many evils. So many weapons and obstacles to use to your advantage. The afore mentioned stools and chairs, ashtrays and beer glasses/bottles to throw, security staff to intervene.

Since evasion is your best option, it makes sense that mobility is your greatest asset, backing into a corner would have to be a final stand kinda action. Throwing stuff helps slow someone down while you maintain distance and mobility. Lots of incidental items can become weapons if you think about it.

I have seen people practice the "jacket" quick draw, taking the jacket off by pulling the collar from behind the head, over the top and throwing it forward, leaving your arms in the sleeves, and tying up a hand with a knife. A little practice and a lot of back peddaling and you could pull it off, I reckon, if you had to.

I knew a guy that went down defensively under a knife attack in Frankfurt Germany, Hard Rock Cafe in Sachsenhousen, late 70's, went down following a slash, holding his arms above his head, the attacker had two knives, a butchers boning knife and a set of brass knuckles with a switch blade that came out of the palm, and he got gutted. The attack took chips of bone out of his skull, carved up his arms and opened his guts. How he survived is miraculous. He got sent back to the states for recovery.

He quit fighting back after getting cut a few times, and just sat there like a chunk of rump roast. Another guy knocked the attacker off using a bar stool feet first like a battering ram and pushed him towards the door, where he turned and ran.

The attacker wasn't trained, but was a meat cutter by trade, and the one lesson I learned is be afraid of a butcher with a knife.

I think people underestimate how much hurt it does you to get cut bad even once, even superficially, much less 2 or 3 or 20 times.... You know, shock and awe...

[Scott R. Brown]

Very good story Yum Cha! It helps to bring reality into a fantasy discussion to keep it real. I have mentioned some stories myself in past knife fight discussions. I have just been too lazy to repeat them this time.

There so many ways a situation can go down, but the odds are if you are unarmed you are going the the hospital and you will be lucky to be alive! If you are armed then you are still likely to go to the hospital and will be lucky to be alive.

One defensive strategy I use to stay safe is not going to bars!;)

[The Xia]

Interesting story Yum Cha. We all must remember that combat is chaotic. There are countless scenarios that one can encounter. We often cite the bar or a rough neighborhood street as examples, but one should remember that things can go bad anywhere. In a restaurant some delusional drunk that thinks you were oggling his girl can start trouble. In the office a frustrated co-worker can snap on you. Some jerk doesn't like the way you parked and decides to get physical. There are countless scenarios and settings we can encounter. Training should give you the tools to take the situation you are dealt and make the best of it.

[WinterPalm]

Sorry about the derailment guys...Unfortunately when confronted with inaccuracies and misinformation, especially when directed at me, I deal with it right here and now. I'll let the rest slide and keep it on topic.

I was not talking about myself using a knife just wondering how people thought this mixed up the equation of a knife defense. I also don't think that there would be a situation where a knife was pulled on me and it would not be a matter of life and death.

I still think there is more than one way to control someone with a knife while only using one hand on the knife arm, wrist. That is just the starting point, obviously two hands would be ideal and is often the case when involved in a scramble...as is striking a very viable option.
In my experiences in a training environment, many things are done and very unorthodox things as well.

How about using the knife against the person by joint manipulation so the blade comes in contact with the other person? What are your experiences on that?

[WinterPalm]

Progression in training is very important!

[The Willow Sword]

In Aikido and Aiki-juitsu there are techniques that deal with the defense of weapon in hand. Although in demonstration the willing participant allows the technique to be executed properly. IN actual combat there is a tension in the arm of the weapon holder that makes it difficult to manipulate. Easy to grasp onto but difficult to control. i think that is why most if not ALL techniques in JMA as well as Chin Na in CMA focus on getting to those joints. Trapping is harder than it seems, especially when the guy with the knife is constantly stabbing or slashing at you. It takes a timing and a will power that not many possess to truly be able to execute. Maybe it is easy in demonstration and application in a controlled setting, but far more difficult in the actual scenario.

The comments on the vid i posted pretty much gave me the insight i was looking for, HOWEVER, there seems to be a lack of full committment on the defenders actions( i guess so as not to seriously hurt the other because after all it is a demo that is designed to come as close as possible to the real confrontation) I think that if one were to go through the motions of defending oneself against a knife in a controlled demo that the knife weilder should be prepared to get hurt to a degree. Its tough though since we just cant all go around breaking each others arm and joints and such. and we seem to want to pull our attacks to the face or vitals and for good reason.
i also think that this is why doing demos like that video give us just a glimpse of what is to be expected in an actual confrontation.
I think that if i were theone defending in that situation(as if i were on that vid) i wouldnt even wait for the guy to draw his knife. i would attack immediately. all that peac0ck grandstanding and initial confrontation gives the attacker ample time to distract you with his bullsh!t and THEN he goes for the knife( i wouldnt give him enough time to do so, and if in the scuffle he starts to go for the knife i THEN have a much better chance of subduing him.

i guess maybe this is a point that we havent touched on that if confronted there is an initial time period where the machismo get up in your face attitude takes place and is a preparation for something more to happen. IF in THAT particular situation you can dispell it before it happens then you have prevailed.

we all seem to be talking more about what would you do if the knife is already in hand, which is GOOD to discuss and test. But is the confrontation always going to be where the attacker has the knife in his hand already? i say that it is a 50/50 chance that he will Not have the knife in his hand.

TWS

[David Jamieson]

:mad: HEY DAVID AND WINTERPALM?!!!!!! TAKE YOUR BULLSH!T TO ANOTHER THREAD and QUIT HIJACKING THIS ONE:mad: !!!!!!!

stfu noob. lol.

how tf would wp hikjack his own thread?

anyway...in many traditional martial arts the training for knife defense uses a lot of compliance. Heck, a lot of chin na drills have too much compliance.

I don't think they're meant to, I think that people just need to go slow or they will not get it and won't be able to do stuff under pressure.

You have to turn up the heat and people have to put spiriti into their attacks and defenses in drill training and create that realism from which learning will spring.

when it's a cattle call type training of left hand goes to (a), right arm goes to (b) etc etc and is played out slow and mechanically, there is no value in that and it's really a waste of time.

spirited attacks and defenses, while maintaining a modicum of safety are key.

I mean, lets face it, a lot of people take martial arts for a lot of reasons. One of them is to learn to fight and defend yourself. But in my experience the vast majority of people aren't naturals, aren't street fighters, haven't been in anything outside of maybe a highschool scuffle in their lives.

My experience is that the people who train realistically do not have that same experience. A balls out club with good training methods in rbsd is one in one thousand. Strip mall dojos and run of the mill kungfu clubs do not provide the environment of realism more often than not.

I try not to make that mistake with people I train with.
But, you have to recycle your training partners as well, so ground rules are important and the guys have to be willing to take one on the nose if need be and not get all huffy about it if they get dropped. To me that's special character and it's not common and you will get more out one year in that environment than 5 in a bubble.

[The Willow Sword]

stfu noob. lol.

Hey d!psh!t? Ive been on these boards since 1995. i just havent posted or spent nearly as much time wasted here as you seem to. I am definately NOT a noob on these forums. SO take that Horsecr@p somewhere else.

This is actually a good thread with some intelligent discussion and if you and the author of this thread have some BS between you that you need to resolve then have some self respect and take it to another thread or do it in PM. I mean comeon we have enough of the rivalry going on here. im sure alot of others would agree.

Now back to the real topic TWS

[David Jamieson]

Hey d!psh!t? Ive been on these boards since 1995. i just havent posted or spent nearly as much time wasted here as you seem to. I am definately NOT a noob on these forums. SO take that Horsecr@p somewhere else.

This is actually a good thread with some intelligent discussion and if you and the author of this thread have some BS between you that you need to resolve then have some self respect and take it to another thread or do it in PM. I mean comeon we have enough of the rivalry going on here. im sure alot of others would agree.

Now back to the real topic TWS

Now you're being a hypocrite. and you didn't even put in anything relevant to thread after your little outburst like I did, nyah nyah nyah.

Being on these boards is no measure of anything. lol, except that maybe we have too much free time in our respective offices.

now reply to my points above or forever be regarded as a pantywaist. :p
stfu noob.

[WinterPalm]

By making my own thread I can make it go wherever I want? Wow...the power!:D

I agree that spirit, allout attacks and defenses are imperative. But I don't believe in starting there. Touch on it a bit. But reinforce time and time again the A's, B's, and C's. I find now after quite a bit of compliant, not so compliant, and willfully resisting opponents, that when I spar or do a knife on empty hand drill the techniques tend to flow and adapt to the level of aggression. And soon most if not all your drills, once you know the mechanics, take on a very aggressive and allout context to them. This takes time and I don't believe in jumping in right off the bat...maybe to taste what is to come.h