weight training

[The Xia]

Unfortunately, it seems to be a dirty term for some martial arts enthusiasts but I feel its a great thing. So, anyone know any weight-lifting excersizes that are especially good Gung Fu supplements?

[_William_]

Full squat
Deadlift - snatch grip, conventional, partial, romanian
Olympic pulling - any
Jerks - Push, power, split
Bench
Row
Press
Pullup, chinup, horizontal pullup(lean back to approximate a rowing motion)

Grip training of all kinds
Medicine ball tosses of all kinds
Throws of other implements(discus, shotput, rocks...)

[The Xia]

Thanks for the tips William.

Grip training is something I always liked. But I am not sure what exactly I should do in this reguard. Also, I've heard that if done improperly one can get tendonitis. What would you suggest in terms of grip training?

[viper]

For grip i do alot because its just good to have but try rock climbing esp indoor my forearms failed twice in 2 hours it awesome.

[Chief Fox]

Weight training. I try to do mostly full body exercises like _William_ suggested. But if you check my pullup thread you'll see that my pullups suck right now.

Here's what I do for my standard workout.

Rowing machine, row 500 meters
20 box jumps on a 20inch box.
20 kettle bell swings.
20 push presses with 75lbs.

I time myself for three rounds and record the time. The time is a great way to measure fitness. Once I get to a certain time I'll either add another round or another exercise.

For example, when I first started doing this workout, I didn't have the kettlebell swings in there. I was doing 4 rounds of the other exercises in less than 15 minutes. So I decided to add another exercise and drop down to 3 rounds. My times are comming in at about 17 minutes now. Once I get down to the 15 minute mark, I'll add a fourth round.

Once my back gets healed up I'll also get back to doing deadlifts, squats and bench press.

Grip training. I use a Captains of Crush gripper. I started out with the Trainer and I now have a Number 1 gripper. I was able to close it for the first time just last night.

I've heard another way to improve grip strength is to rope climb so I'm considering putting a rope in the tree in my back yard.

[The Xia]

Interesting stuff. Have any of you tried or considered traditional Chinese weights? I know its big in Shuai Jiao circles. If you do buy the stuff, I wonder if you'd need an actual trainer or can you just do the excersizes from reading.

[SevenStar]

Interesting stuff. Have any of you tried or considered traditional Chinese weights? I know its big in Shuai Jiao circles. If you do buy the stuff, I wonder if you'd need an actual trainer or can you just do the excersizes from reading.


just like anything else, it would benefit you to have someone show you proper technique, be it a pulley, stone locks or the rock pole.

[_William_]

Thanks for the tips William.

Grip training is something I always liked. But I am not sure what exactly I should do in this reguard. Also, I've heard that if done improperly one can get tendonitis. What would you suggest in terms of grip training?

I'm no expert in grip. However just train it in moderation, 2x weekly to start. If it gets too much then cut back and ice.

Train the finger extensors(opening the hand) as well to ensure muscle balance. Elastic bands work well here.

[The Xia]

I'm no expert in grip. However just train it in moderation, 2x weekly to start. If it gets too much then cut back and ice.

Train the finger extensors(opening the hand) as well to ensure muscle balance. Elastic bands work well here.

Finger extensors. Yeah, that would make sense to ensure balance. Thanks!

[bung bo]

Hey The Xia----I started traing with kettlebells a few months ago and have gotten results that I really like. They have made my back and shoulders way stronger than they used to be, and they really improve the grip. I think they're especially good for martial artists because you learn how to use your whole body on every exercise (which is essential in MA anyway). I also rehabed old injuries with kettlebells too.
You can read up on them on http://www.dragondoor.com.I didn't buy mine here because they are too expensive. I got them form a track and field websit that Chief Fox posted a while back. They won't kill you with shipping like dragondoor does.
I still keep my regular plate weights around because I think deadlifting has enourmous benefits.

[sansooman]

Unfortunately, it seems to be a dirty term for some martial arts enthusiasts but I feel its a great thing. So, anyone know any weight-lifting excersizes that are especially good Gung Fu supplements?

Hi, I'm new to this board but not new to this question. I am a certified fitness trainer with 26 years of experience and a 2nd degree black belt in the art of Kung Fu San Soo with 14 years experience.

This is something that is right up my alley. I have found that one of the keys to martial art prowess is the development of your leg strength (balance and power) and your cardio strength (the ability to sustain your energy during an altercation).

If you would like tips related to this subject take a look at my blog,

Diary of a San Soo Blackbelt (http://goldenwolfe.blogspot.com)

Good luck in your training!

http://www.kungfutrainingsecrets.com/images/tony.jpg

Tony Mendoza
Kung Fu Training Secrets, Inc. (http://www.kungfutrainingsecrets.com)

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks for the link. I like your website, Tony. Welcome to kungfumagazine. Squats and Pullovers are two of the great exercises old school weight lifters know and love. You could do much worse than those even if they were all you did.

Cheers.

[sansooman]

Thank you for the welcome. I look forward to participating on this board. I also noticed that you are out of Eugene, Oregon. I am in the process of moving to Brookings, Oregon and will be opening a Kung Fu San Soo school there once I am settled.

Thanks again!

Tony

:cool:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

chief fox turned me on to crossfit (http://www.crossfit.com) a while ago and i just did this routine for the second time last night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o-RM6ebuis

its a killer leg workout that i can not recommend enough. i did it for my first time cause i thought it looked fairly easy for a crossfit workout. i thought its just too bad i only have 40lb dumbells at home. turns out 40s were too heavy .... after 2 sets i had to drop down. the girl in the workout is using 45s. i think the guy is using 65s. it's deceptively hard.

even if you dont want to kill yourself like these guys do you can still take a lot of ideas and workouts from their site and play with them.

also sled (http://www.t-nation.com/assets/images/around-the-waist-dragging.jpg). if you have access to one it will become your new best friend. if you can purchase one cheaply and have a place to use it do so.

*edit .. .sled link fixed

[AndrewS]

GDA,

that Crossfit clip reminds me of why I have a problem w/ Crossfit. The decay in form both those trainees were experiencing is disturbing and dangerous- knee injuries waiting to happen- both of them were buckling their knees in on the squat motions even on the first set, and it looked brutal by the last. Sevenstar's comment on learning proper technique is especially relevant here.

Andrew

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

ill admit that this is an area i certainly lack expertise, but my knees feel fine.

i tried to keep decent form all the way through, but is there really such a high risk of injury with such light weight?

its like turning your head when racking 225 .... it's a bad habit and it can become a real problem when the weight gets heavy, but you could rack 225 like that forever without ever risking injury. i see this set in kind of the same light. it's highly unlikely that you'll ever go heavy enough with dumb bells for it to be a real problem.

i respect your opinion though, so if you dont mind elaborating further i appreciate it.

[AndrewS]

GDA,

look at the clip- in the first set, by the clean to squat both folks are having a little adduction of the knees going on the ascent, by the 5th set they're fried and their knees are buckling in on nearly *every* rep. That's a recipe for a medial meniscus injury, and it doesn't take a heavy load to for that to occur.

My b*tch with crossfit is that they construct workouts using complex exercises which take a lot of time to learn with good form, then wind up putting those exercises in formats where you will perform them under conditions of great fatigue, where form is more likely to decay, and risk of injury increases significantly.

There's nothing wrong with doing that workout- it looks really fun- but the mentality (tough it out, up the volume) and the assumptions (no injuries/imbalances to work around, technical competance at complex lifts which can require months to years to learn) make the program risky.

Andrew

[Chief Fox]

There was a lot of discussion on that video when it first appeared on the crossfit website. Many people brought up the same warnings that AndrewS brought up.

No doubt that is a great workout and just like any workout or lift, if done improperly, it could result in injury.

They do stress over at Crossfit that you scale the workouts to your ability. They also discuss learning proper form from a professional before atempting complex lifts.

It's pretty clear that the guy in that video was using too much weight for his ability and looked like he was coming close to falling several times.

I really don't think that particular video is a good example of the crossfit mentality.

Part of the crossfit philosophy is "intensity". Some people take this a little too far. It doesn't have to be dangerous to be intense.

It sounds like GDA did the smart thing by listening to his body and dropping weight.

[IronFist]

GDA,

that Crossfit clip reminds me of why I have a problem w/ Crossfit. The decay in form both those trainees were experiencing is disturbing and dangerous- knee injuries waiting to happen- both of them were buckling their knees in on the squat motions even on the first set, and it looked brutal by the last. Sevenstar's comment on learning proper technique is especially relevant here.

Andrew

Good call. I didn't watch the clip until I read your reply, and you're right; their knees are buckling. :eek:

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i dunno i still like crossfit and that workout in particular.

we might have been using girly weight, but our knees didnt buckle at all when doing the last movement. in fact, the last set of squats were almost a relief to me when i got to them. the previous 2 movements seemed so hard by the third set that it wasn't all that big of a deal to pump out a couple squats in good form. i wanted to puke mind you, but my legs could handle doing what they were told.

[Chief Fox]

Not dissing on the dude in the video but he may have an imbalance in strength. His upper body looked pretty strong but he may have week legs.

Most martial artist have extremely strong legs compared to everything else.

This might be why you were able to stay in good form.

[SevenStar]

This is something that is right up my alley. I have found that one of the keys to martial art prowess is the development of your leg strength (balance and power) and your cardio strength (the ability to sustain your energy during an altercation).


cardio plays a backseat to anaerobic fitness though, in the case of an altercation... cardio is really only a factor is the fight is drawn out, or if you are running.

[The Xia]

Not dissing on the dude in the video but he may have an imbalance in strength. His upper body looked pretty strong but he may have week legs.

Most martial artist have extremely strong legs compared to everything else.

This might be why you were able to stay in good form.
It is all the stance work that gives us strong legs. I notice that many people that lift weights ignore legs, stretching, and a bunch of other important things.

[Chief Fox]

It is all the stance work that gives us strong legs. I notice that many people that lift weights ignore legs, stretching, and a bunch of other important things.
Yeah, the gym I used to attend had several "bird leg" muscle heads.

[sansooman]

cardio plays a backseat to anaerobic fitness though, in the case of an altercation... cardio is really only a factor is the fight is drawn out, or if you are running.

It depends on what type of fighting you are involved in. For a street encounter yes, anaerobic fitness is probably 1st but when most people are engaged in a fight their adrenaline will shoot their heart rate up like they are running a sprint. It is the fight or flight reaction in most cases that does this. For those of you that have been in a serious street fight you'll know what I'm talking about.

Being in good cardio shape ensures you will have ALL the energy neccessary to handle the encounter.

If you are fighting in the ring you will have to train completely differently.


I do the squat pullover combination 4-6 weeks before our promotions to rev up my stamina. It generally takes 3-5 minutes to do one squat pullover set with (currently) 365lbs x 20reps squat and 90lbs x 20reps pullover.

Our promotion times usually consist of 5-7 minutes of sustained (controlled) fighting and that can really tax the cardio system.

Take a look at a controlled (slowed down so that the crowd can see the techniques) fighting promotion here. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7859606743330463994&hl=en)

For more video footage go to The Phillips School of Kung Fu San Soo - video page! (http://www.goldenwolfe.com/kungfu/videos.html)

Tony

[The Xia]

Yeah, the gym I used to attend had several "bird leg" muscle heads.
lol "bird leg" muscle heads. Great expression Chief Fox. I have seen tons of people like that.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

lol "bird leg" muscle heads. Great expression Chief Fox. I have seen tons of people like that.

screw you guys :(

[Chief Fox]

screw you guys :(
Sorry man. :eek: Wasn't trying to insult you. I was really talking about the guys who are over at the mirror flexing their impressive bicepts while they really should be doing some squats.

Way back in eigth grade I earned the nickname "legs" in gym class. We had this universal machine and I could leg press the whole stack for reps. A lot of the kids were pretty blown away by this. Anyway, I probably have what you would call a bird chest. :D

No offense. Sorry.

[The Xia]

screw you guys :(
We weren't insulting you GDA. :)
As Chief Fox said, we were talking about the vein people that don't bother with their legs because it isn't "macho".
If your legs are underdeveloped just add lots of stance training to your regiment. You can also do leg weights.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

lol .... no biggie. you guys obviously werent singling me out. my comment was in jest , but i really do get a lot of ribbing from guys i train with for being top heavy.

its not that i've ignored my legs at all .... but until recently i'd been training them with the same intensity that i was training my upper boddy and apparently they wanted more.

my last 3 leg workouts have left me sore for 3 - 5 days so apparently they were able to handle much more than i was giving them. they'll adjust. sunday at the gym i drug the sled at 235 for 5 trips (200 ft or so) and then 195 for my last trip. then i did some high volume full squats, high inentisty box squats, followed by about 10 sets of romanian deads.

i've come to the realization that my legs are huge ... they just need to be convinced.

[SevenStar]

It depends on what type of fighting you are involved in. For a street encounter yes, anaerobic fitness is probably 1st but when most people are engaged in a fight their adrenaline will shoot their heart rate up like they are running a sprint. It is the fight or flight reaction in most cases that does this. For those of you that have been in a serious street fight you'll know what I'm talking about.

and as you should know, the adrenaline dump only lasts a few seconds. It's not prolonged. when it's done, you feel sapped, for the reason you stated. I don't think cardio will help you there. What's more beneficial in that aspect is experience - knowing what you are going through physiologically and how to deal with it. When I am breaking up / getting into fights on my job, being out of breath is never a factor unless it's a really long, drawn out altercation.



Being in good cardio shape ensures you will have ALL the energy neccessary to handle the encounter.

I don't deny it helps, just saying that anaerobic is more important in a quick encounter, like a streetfight.



I do the squat pullover combination 4-6 weeks before our promotions to rev up my stamina. It generally takes 3-5 minutes to do one squat pullover set with (currently) 365lbs x 20reps squat and 90lbs x 20reps pullover.

nice. It's not often that I see someone with a squat as high as mine.

[IronFist]

365lbs x 20reps squat

D.amn. How much do you weigh? Are those ass to the ground reps? I can't even hit 365x1! But then again, I only weigh 160. The most I've ever squatted was 315x1, but I got it on vid. w00t! And now I have to throw out there that it was a legit powerlifting squat and the ASIS of my hips was below my knees. ;)

But still. 365x20? That's sick. Nice work.

[The Xia]

So, anyone ever try traditional Chinese weights?

[Samurai Jack]

Dang! I'm still working on that 320 X 20 sumo Deadlift and nowhere near. :(

But I plan on hitting it in the next three month cycle. Everything I read says deadlifts are supposed to be "easier" than squats, but apparently not for me.

You guys are inspiring.

[sansooman]

D.amn. How much do you weigh? Are those ass to the ground reps? I can't even hit 365x1! But then again, I only weigh 160. The most I've ever squatted was 315x1, but I got it on vid. w00t! And now I have to throw out there that it was a legit powerlifting squat and the ASIS of my hips was below my knees. ;)

But still. 365x20? That's sick. Nice work.

Thanks, I weigh 210lbs and am 5' 10" tall. I have been doing the squat pullover combination for 18 years though so after that much time 365lbs is very possible. The squat is parrallel to the ground. It can be very hard on the knees going below parallel with that much weight.

Go to: http://www.kungfutrainingsecrets.com/videos/squat1.html

to see a client of mine doing the squat with correct form.

Tony