Fighting with Internal

[unclaimed effort]

Of the 3 main internal arts, Hsing-I, Tai Chi, Bagua, they all seperately share the effectiveness in a real fighting situation. So, in your opinion, did you really think that it was necessary for having to combine the 3 arts?

I can be like one of those philosophers who hide everything in poems, but instead I can tell you the true secret of martial arts in one word:

PRACTICE!

[honorisc]

People will go a log way to get a shortcut. I No_Know, so (needle and thread) please be more wordy about this combining.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Josh _f]

I'm not sure where the myth that one needs to learn all three neija arts to fight comes from, but it's definately a myth. All of the neijia arts are complete fighting methodologies in and of themselves. In my opinion there is very little difference in how each of the three arts approaches combat. When a person cross trains in several neijia arts one should simple get a different perspective on the same basic methods, rather than a whole host of new strategies, techniques, ect.

Do not attempt to share your interest in martial arts with pedantic, narrow-minded scholars. As soon as they find out, they will quote from the classics and regale you with all kinds of irrelevant non-sense. This is infuriating. You can deal with this by either avoiding them or keeping your art secret.
--Ch'ang Nai-chou

[swmngdragn]

two heads are better than one?

Weeeeelllllll.... It's the same with the neijia arts. All three concentrate on separate ways of dealing with the same situations. To put it simply: Tai Chi teaches you to relax, absorb and "stick". Pa Qua teaches you to evade, and "steal" your opponents balance. Hsing-I teaches to explode through, and destroy the opponent. All three together?

What do *you* think? :)

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[Internal Flow]

One head is better than one thousand heads with no brain.
If someone tries to "learn" all these arts, he will get a zero, as he wont be able to learn anything. To learn one of them, one must dedicate his life and it is still not enough.

All things return to it as to their home, but it does not lord it over them.
Thus it may be called "The Great"

[swmngdragn]

To concentrate on *one* art is probably the best. To, at least, get a "feel" for all three ? (maybe a year, or two of training/instruction) Well, that's bound to make *what* you're concentrating on even better. *That's* what I was getting at. It's not *necessary* to train in all of the "Three Sisters", but it will give you a deepeer understanding of *what* it is that you're body is *supposed* to be doing. Regardless of *which* style is your primary one.

Best regards,
R. Drake Sansone
(swmngdragn@home.com)
http://www.liuhopafa.com/
"Train, or go to hell." Terry W.

[unclaimed effort]

The more general the better because I can get an answer from you in which you can put your mind into it more. I'd like to hear what you think about how people combine the fighting strategies of the internal arts? Was it necessary? Or should it have been left alone as 3 seperate arts? The 3 strategies as stated by Sun Lu Tang: "Hsing-I fortifies the center, Tai Chi empties the center, and Bagua changes the center."

I can be like one of those philosophers who hide everything in poems, but instead I can tell you the true secret of martial arts in one word:

PRACTICE!

[JerryLove]

"To learn one of them, one must dedicate his life and it is still not enough."

So if I follow you logic. No one has learned any of these arets. Therefore no one can teach them (since no one has learned them) and therefore they do not exist.

There is a difference between "can learn from for a lifetime" and "takes a lifetime to learn".

[woliveri]

Isn't Liu Hup Ba Fa (Liu Ho Ba Fa) a combination of these arts? I had heard that only after learning all 3 would you be able to learn this art.

There is no spoon. "The Matrix"
There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. "The Matrix"

[Mr. Nemo]

No, I don't think you need any more than one of the three arts to fight well.

But at the same time, I think it's ok to take more than one at a time. I'm taking both tai chi and bagua right now, though I'm really more serious about bagua and plan to concentrate on it.

The key thing is not to try and outsmart yourself and your intructor by trying to combine the two if you don't really understand either of them. Don't try to second-guess your hsing-i training using the stuff you learned in bagua, for example.

[honorisc]

Perhaps you were making a point; however literally, Merely by not any one learning it does not necessarily mean it's not there. It might be there and no one learns it. Or no one learns it because it is not there. But one would have to know everything-ish to be aware that one did not know.~

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[JerryLove]

No-know. Confusing, but I will try to answer.

Your base premise that it takes a lifetime or more to learn a Neijia art is untrue. While the art contains material you can continue to learn from for that long, you have "learned" the art before then.

As an analogy (and I think a good one), take chess. I have learned how to play chess. I could spend the next 40 years learning better how to play chess, but that would be working on mastery, not simply trying to learn the game.

You have learned chess when you understand the rules and know how to apply them.

That said. Learning in Neijia arts can be pretty long. But an understanding, to the point where you can teach someone else (and to the point where you can say "I know Taiji" or the like) does not take a lifetime. My definition of "how long it takes to learn".

[honorisc]

That which is emptied and fortified is prepaired to change.

A fork with three prongs. Choosing any of these paths, puts you among the end of the road of the other two.

If the strategies are any good and different, then there is more skill with putting them together. But putting together the seperate Ways. Each one speaks about itsself. And this would point out how they can blend--Where Tiger is empty, Crane is full. Where Crane is empty, Tiger~ Combining can be done and a good thing--least common denominator; however one would soon see that you don't have New. You merely have the old going where it would have went if you really understood it.

Ba Kua and Hsing-I have been slightly mixed with eacother for decades, My comprehension. One who learns a Combined Way could not appreciate the three which make the one. And by that cannot fully reap the greatness gotten by doing the combination well put together.~

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[Sil Lum Palm]

The Emperor's Long fist is an art that combines all three neijia arts into one. And if what Internal Flow says about, "you getting a zero trying to learn them all" well then wouldn't the Emperor's Long Fist system be useless?? ( and trust me its not useless)

[Internal Flow]

You may learn much, but there will always be something that you dont know, and this is for everyone.

All things return to it as to their home, but it does not lord it over them.
Thus it may be called "The Great"

[Kaitain(UK)]

the majority of discussions that the other two have confirms that the principles are universal

I believe we all train to become formless and operate purely on principles - emphasis might be different but it's the same tool set.

For me training all three is pointless - I considered it but felt that I had enough on my plate with Taiji. Learning another art would just increase the length of time it will take to improve my Taiji. That's just for me though - I think everyone follows their own path and has their own reasons for training.

I suppose it is predicated on whether you feel/believe the final results are really that different - the books I have read on the other internal styles haven't shown me anything I cannot see in my own art already. Often I hadn't seen it until I looked for it so there may be an argument for accelerated learning through traing the other arts.

I'm confused now :) - I've managed to argue myself into an undecided view point

argh

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[The Willow Sword]

i practice all three,,,,i do not have the official forms of li hou ba fa. what i can tell you in my 15 yrs of study is that these 3 arts are similar and different and yet they go togetherand add to the essence of the others.
in taichi you are very soft and subtle,,there is no tension at all,,,this art helps to build chi in the system.
Pakua is a bit more dynamic than the other two but its contribution to taichi and especially hsing-i is that it now begins to circulate the chi and gives it a flow that is faster than that of the taichi.
the hsing-i now helps us to focus the power to one point in time and drill forth. soft and supple yet fast and explosive..the more agressive of the two. each conatining the sets to help build chi,,circulate it and then focus it.
in the olden times pakua and hsing-i were taught together as they complimented each other.
but you always had the taichi FIRST,,this is how i was taught,,hsing-i was the last to be learned.
here is a poem that might help the layman
understand why theyre taught together and then combined to create li hou ba fa.
taichi blends
pakua circulates
hsing-i releases
taichi releases
pakua blends
hsing-i circulates
taichi circulates
pakua releases
hsing-i blends.
taichi is the foundation
pakua is the staircase
hsing-i are the pillars

many respects,, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.