Ng lung choy (tat mau wong)

[Eddie]

Clfnole, I saw this video on youtube the same page as franks video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB5Llq2xwhw&mode=related&search= . Its from Tat Mau Wong’s school it seems, looks like our che kuen, heavily modified. Just want to know, do you know this version of the form? Do you also do this specific version?

Just curious, im not commenting on either the form or the player, so not trying to attract comments about that.

[hskwarrior]

sorry Eddie for highjacking this thread, but does any one know who this sets belongs to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcMDyhgr4yQ


The set is called Siu Kou Da Kuen, and is really short.

hsk

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

No I don't do this version. It looks like a condensed portion to be used as a basic set. I play the real long one.

Frank:

That doesn't look like a set at all. It looks more like the bow sequence only. I think that guy got hosed by whoever taught him.

[Eddie]

that guy in the clip frank posted does a cool crane stance, and he has some cool bangles on ;)

thanks CLFNole. there s guy doing siumoifah on that same page too. you dont by any chance know which school they from? (I know tatwong academy - but which one)

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

My guess would be one of the schools in Brazil but I am not sure.

[hskwarrior]

Do you think that could be Sifu P. Fraga's people?

[CLFNole]

No it says Tat Wong on the back of their uni's and Paul does it the way we do it.

[Fu-Pow]

I'm sure some people are going to jump on me for saying it but I don't particularily care for the way that Wong Sifu teaches his forms. It seems too stiff to me. Also, when they do Sou Geuk they don't go all the way down.

Nothing personal against Wong Sifu, I've met him many times in person and think he is a very nice guy and he has many times over demonstrated his fighting ability.

I've noticed that his form has become more rigid than when he did the forms on his panther video series when it was more like Lee Koon Hungs.

I wonder if this is a result of performance pressures at tournaments where there is a lot of competing against harder styles going on. I know that his students win many tournaments with their forms but it seems like something has been lost in the translation...so to speak.

FP

[Ben Gash]

Also, when they do Sou Geuk they don't go all the way down.

As I've been taught you're not supposed to.

[CLFNole]

I also don't go all the way down. I like to go low just not all the way to the ground. Yeah it might look nice but you don't want to be too low when doing a sweep. Also when performing a set if you go too low it can slow you down somewhat.

Like I said I like low just not too low.

[Fu-Pow]

You should go low enough that the thigh of your supporting leg is parallel to the ground.

Case in point:


http://www.makskungfu.com/choylayfut/images/Si-Gwong.jpg

I'm not sure if that move is Sou Geuk because I don't know the tiger hooks but you get the point.

You guys don't have anything to say about my other comments...I'm surprised.

[CLFNole]

That particular picture sifu is especially low and it is just a pose not from the set. If you have seen the picture with the double broadswords it is a bit higher. The main thing when doing this stance is to be able to sweep properly in sow girk and kick properly in chang fu. How high or low is really not that important and people play it differently according to their body types and degree of flexibility.

As far as commenting on what you said I will wait and see how many more people end up on your ignore list. :D

[Fu-Pow]

That particular picture sifu is especially low and it is just a pose not from the set. If you have seen the picture with the double broadswords it is a bit higher. The main thing when doing this stance is to be able to sweep properly in sow girk and kick properly in chang fu.

True dat.



How high or low is really not that important and people play it differently according to their body types and degree of flexibility.

However, I think ALL of Wong Sifu's students play it this way because he plays it this way but I think that it doesn't look right, the lower you go the more power you get into it and the better leverage you have against somebodies leg. But form and application are two different things....for form as a training tool I think that you should extend it out and go as low as possible while maintaining good structure and mobility. If you can go go bigger, looser, lower than you can easily go shorter, tighter, smaller but unfortunately it doesn't go the other way.



As far as commenting on what you said I will wait and see how many more people end up on your ignore list. :D

It is getting quite long but I think that just reflects how many people are on this forum...you're always going to get some that just can't play well with others.....:D

[CLFNole]

One thing I will say is that all of Tat Wong's students play their CLF like him so something is working right. How and the way they do might not suit your taste but it works for them and to each his own. Same thing goes with the prior thread on how to do loq kwai ma.

[Eddie]

I am in now way near qualified to comment on Master Wongs teaching methods or technique, but based on my limited knowledge and understanding of this matter, this is how I see sow gerk / charng fu.

I like going down all the way when I practice my form, for the mere reason that it helps build the leg strength and flexibility needed to execute the technique properly. Sow gerk is a very effective technique, and I have used it many many times in fighting (san shou, thaiboxing, etc). In reality, my sow gerk is never as low as it is when I do the form, but you still have to go low enough to execute the technique so that you have proper leverage over your opponent.

I see no problem with it if someone practice higher stances like these guys in the video, I just personally think if they train lower, they might develop better body postures for when they do the stance. Size and weight doesn’t matter, and I think that if those guys train to go down all the way while they are still younger (like they look), they will develop good structure for when they are older. And that’s what we train for isn’t it?

I do have a comment on the hand position. I first learned it that way too, but when I first met Sow Choy (Joe), I realised bringing your hand up higher has more benefits. I use my and kind of in a scissor way to push the guy while I sweep, and if you do that in practice, you will realise that your arm need to be higher up to do this.

Im pretty confident about sow gerk. I think it’s probably one of the nicest techniques we have in CLF :- )

I realise my grammar and language is horrible in this post, but Im trying to do 100 things in one, having to switch between 3 different languages during the day, so apologies to those language freaks for raping your language :- )

[hskwarrior]

I think the Sow Geuk is a personal issue here. Everyone has different body types, movements need to change to adapt to this idea.

In my opinion......a mid range sow geuk is more effective because you are not too low to the ground and not standing either.

Now, I've seen people use a push hand type move with the sweep which i personally would NEVER use. The hand I use is more of a pek choy type move along with the sweep. I prefer this one over most because if executed right you can flip the person upside down with it.

but remember first above all else, we all are different, different bodies, strengths, and emphasis. Just take that into consideration first.

hsk

[Eddie]

I agree. when I execute the technique in fighting it would be mid range, but in training I try to go low as posible. Body type is important, but if you train correctly, it shouldnt be much of a problem. Im also heavy and tall, so I appreciate what you are saying.

Regarding the push or pek choy, its the same principle. You still go mid to high range, and in the video, their arms were lower. I will post a pic of me later

[Ben Gash]

But if you go TOO low in your forms then you are constantly re-enforcing a bad habit. If you go too low A) your balance point is off (it will move backwards to compensate) B ) You won't express the correct energy through your leg and foot and C) you inhibit your mobility.
It's kind of like was discussed in another thread. Some things are personal, but others just don't work.

[hskwarrior]

In the Joy Yau Biu Sey video of my sifu's he shows the technique, and in application it doesn't really look like the sow geuk in the form. but the same principals are there.

the secret to the way we use the arm in sow geuk is like i said ealier, a pek choy. Instead of using the fist, we use the whole outside edge of the arm to first strike from your forehead down, smashing your nose, then continues on downwards to strike the chest---and thats where you can flip the guy over in conjunction with the leg sweep.

This was actually accomplished at a tournament by a classmate of mine in his 1st tourney. it got a lot of reaction to it. but it was perferctly executed....the guy literally flip over landing face down.


hsk

[hskwarrior]

but going really low something helps to stretch the muscles and train them to become stronger when executing a shorter range sow geuk.

hsk

[hskwarrior]

Ben I agree.

If you go too low you have a chance of falling down if the other person is rooted properly.

The way i do the sow geuk is more similar to the way MMA artists roundhouse kick a thigh muscle. Instead I apply the same force, speed, and intention to just about the top of your calf muscle, or right below your knee. The knee happens to buckle nicely at that range.

hsk

ps, Ben would you throw the technique away cause it didn't work or would you modify it to make it work for you?

peace

[Ben Gash]

I generally work on the principle that my Kung Fu forefathers who fought to death or disablement barehand and armed knew a lot more about fighting than I do, and therefore if there's something wrong with the technique it's a flaw I either learned or developed myself. I take it apart, look at the seeds, see how the energy should be xpressed and take it from there. :cool:

[yutyeesam]

I totally agree with moving the arm straight across higher. That's more effective for a scizzors sweep, than having the arm lower.

Fu-Pow, I hear what you're saying about going lower. I tend to agree that you should go a little further with things in form just so you have a greater range of motion. In a way, sort of like lifting 200 lbs so that lifting 100 becomes easier.

That said, I don't go lower as a personal preference that comes more from the principles of intent. As long as my intent and "center" are where I want them to be, the physical structure is not all that critical.

-123

[Eddie]

I never loose balance when going low in a form, actually, it helps more going lower with balance. I feel more stable that way. Sow gerk really works your legs, from the calf muscle, right up to the quads.

I've used the hand like a been choy in a fight too.

my sow gerk with the left foot in front really needs work ;) .

[Fu-Pow]

But if you go TOO low in your forms then you are constantly re-enforcing a bad habit.

Upon further analysis:

In the case of Sou Geuk your upperbody and lower body are going in two different directions creating the "scissor like" effect that Eddie described. That means that as your leg comes around to sweep the torso must actually be moving in the other direction. In the final position you end up with your torso almost facing "forward" in the direction that your lead leg is "pointing."

It is impossible to get this effect if you don't "seat" your hips and sink your stance. When people first learn Sou Geuk they don't turn their torso forward. They bring their leg around but not their torso in the other direction so the end position looks like a reverse bow stance. This kind of sweep is less effective because it lacks the reverse sweeping motion of the the arm and dangerous as you end up turning your back to the opponent with no means of attack and/or defense. If you don't want to "sink" but want to sweep a better method would be a low round kick to the opponents lead leg or to sweep in a similar motion to Sou Geuk from a cat stance position.

In the case of Chan Fu it is a dropping side kick designed to crush the opponents knee joint. The power is generated by the forward motion of the kick combined with the dropping the weight of the whole body. The ****her you "drop" the more power this move has and you need a lot of power to destroy the knee in this way.

My point here is that, yes, these are supposed to be low, if you don't go low then most likely you are not doing them correctly.

"Too low" is when you are so low that you have no structure, when you are "sitting" on your leg and you have to engage your muscles first before you can move.