Sensivity Training

[Meklorien]

How important is tactile sensitivity in actual combat?

[YungChun]

Had posted this on the other thread but it belongs more on this one...

To wit:

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Chi Sao and related material are DRILLS.. The drills are how WCK folks work on attribute development as it relates to WCK--Chi Sao is not fighting. The purpose of any of this kind of training is developing attributes FOR WCK fighting and for SELF DEFENSE, which is NOT always the same thing.

It cultivates attributes and skills like:

Contact Reflexes

Meaning a sensitivity to various conditions that can and will exist when fighters "clash", meaning forceful contact with the arms, legs and body happens, something that happens often enough in real fighting—forceful contact.

Awareness to position and range

Conditions that WCK trains to be sensitive to relate to body and bridge position and energy. This translates into how, as it applies to energy/force, the opponent's resistance manifests <how he leaves the line> and how to use this resistance depending on what position you find yourself in to gain an advantage in order to apply an effective attack.

Why Sensitivity Training?

In order to:

Speed up our timing

Just as grapplers use feeling to determine how to control the opponent using the concepts and moves in their system WCK emphasizes relying on feeling as much as possible because responding to feeling is several times faster than is relying on sight--due to reaction delay..

WCK in it's simplest form is about learning how to control the center space through adapting to the opponent's energy and position, just as a grappler does, except in this case using WCK techniques, structure and concepts..

More over these kinds of drills re-enforce and ingrain a myriad of key system concepts into the body, like:

General Center Space theory
Hand Unity
Hand Replacement
Bi-Directional Energy
Using the opponent's energy against him
Leaving and Returning to the line
Body Unity
Body Alignment
WCK Structure
Economy of Motion
WCK Power generation and release
Freed Hand Attacks the Line
Attacking Hand Defends
Facing and Following
Hand Hits from where it is..
Fan Sao--or Continuity of Attack
Making Three movements at once
Combining attack and defense

And on and on...

These drills, when taught and trained the right way may not be a "cure all" but they represent a highly evolved training platform for cultivating several key system components via a PROGRESSIVE TRAINING method. The method addresses the majority of WCK concepts and integrates them as a whole that can be trained against progressive resistance and internalized..

The progression is an ingenious method of cultivating in a cohesive manner most of WCK's key attributes in a format that can be completely unrehearsed and free, or it can be broken down into parts for students to focus on where they may need work. These dynamic sensitivity drills form the basic training of the system and provide a context for each tool, technique and concept and the opportunity to work them in a kind of WCK laboratory where our attributes, techniques and concepts can be cultivated with progressive resistance--ideally they become a natural part of us.

What is good about movement A and what is bad about movement A is a gross over-simplification; It all depends on the conditions that exist in the moment. Each tool has a use and time it is best applied.. There is no guarantee, however, that any training move or technique will ever be needed since this all depends on what the opponent does or fails to do.. Indeed some WCK moves will NEVER be needed, but this does not invalidate training to adapt to the opponent's energy and position, since this is at the heart of what ANY MA system or method of training is trying to do, the only question is how one goes about it and what methods one wishes to train and cultivate..

WCK emphasizes training feeling and kinesthetic awareness as it relates to controlling our "center space" and center <CG> of the opponent. At close quarter combat range sight is almost useless, and deceptive as well, so other senses are cultivated in these drills. We train to use energy, ours and his, the given position, leverage and our system's concepts to take control of the opponent by the most economic means possible--and that is the study made here in the drills..

No doubt that folks can get carried away by this large area of focus. So folks need to also work on Visual Sensitivity and working from the outside, non contact ranges, how to read the opponent, etc. And these things must be addressed in Sparring drills and sparring that involves MAINLY IMO sparring folks that DO NOT do WCK...

So, these drills form what is the base and core of WCK theory and how that is internalized... Don't get confused by the "fancy moves" in these drills--don't take the training so literally—look beyond petty technique--it is about the underlying lessons and concepts that are being taught.

The drilling is finally about a study of energy and position, through feeling and kinesthetic awareness and how to become sensitive enough to this resistance to adapt, naturally, economically and with superior timing and position. The objective of this drilling is to train the student how to use WCK concepts and internalize them in order to take control and finish the opponent.

In the end the training is the training, don’t confuse the Finger for the Moon, this stuff is all about using less not more, to become simpler, not more complicated and, as with any art you get out of it what you put into it—train harder and smarter and the result will be better.

[Meklorien]

Wow! A very good post. Thanks YungChun.

[Meklorien]

I'm really amazed that there were no more posts on this on than the one above. While YungChun's post is quite thorough and pretty much covers it all IMHO, I was hoping to see more input here. I know there is a significant cache of experience on this forum and I was hoping to pick up some new perceptions.

[WingTsun20]

Grand Master Kernspecht's sensitivity in WingTsun is so good that he can feel yourvbreathing on contact with your limbs....

[Mr Punch]

Grand Master Kernspecht's sensitivity in WingTsun is so good that he can feel yourvbreathing on contact with your limbs....LOL :D

er
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I take it you were joking right?

[Steeeve]

Sentivity training .....Yes chi sao

But any training U do with a partner his sentivity training ...

two partner drills are sentivity training ...In the filipino M A we do a lot of that..
Judo,jiujitsu do that also ...

Ok for chinese WC southern mantis ....in pakua taiji hsing i
do this training different name but the same goals....



its the only way to train to understtood what u do....

Sorry im not english so my vocabulary is restraint

here I dont talk about the two men set of some kung fu style ...I talk about drills


Steeve:D

[Mr Punch]

I'm really amazed that there were no more posts on this on than the one above. ...As you can see by Yung Chun's post, it's a pretty complicated subject which could take a long essay to even summarize. Maybe that's why.

Plus, it's a bit theoretical for some.

But...

although my approach to this question is maybe different to YC's it doesn't mean I disagree. There are a few points on YC's post I'd like to add to/take minor issue with but I'll do that later when I have time... Let me have just a quick go for now :)


How important is tactile sensitivity in actual combat?In conventional stand-up, not very. In any kind of grappliing (stand-up or ground) very. In clinch work quite.

Conventional stand-up needs striking! This has no room or time for tactile sensitivity. True, my internals and koryu teacher could seem to punch right into your core each time... which would invariably crush the bretah out of you and disrupt your balance no matter which angle he was hitting you, and he put this down to finding the core on contact with the fist. But he is exceptional and for most people this is redundant... too much tactile information in a striking scenario is too much for your brain to handle and will slow you up. However, training chum kiu is a bit of an exception, and I'll mention that below.

Your question itself seems indicative of some confusion in this area. The thread title is 'sensitivity training' but the question is about 'sensitivity in combat'. These things are different, and will maybe lead to YC's point about the finger and the moon!

I think chi sao is very useful training, but I think most people's problem with it is they do too much thinking that that kind of sensitivity training in itself is enough to improve fighting ability.

But in some ways what it does is give you a false sense of ability and confidence. The reason for this is because it's a half-and-half-range. It's not a clinch, it doesn't follow into grappling despite it being suited to both of these ranges, and it doesn't cater against fighters who train specifically to disrupt contact (longer range impact fighters like Thai fighters or boxers)... ie it serves best against other people who are looking for the same kind of sticky contact. Also it often causes training too much in one rhythm, which will negate any tactile advantages in favour of a arrhythmical boxing-style fighter.

As such then chi sao only trains the SLT reflexes and energies thoroughly and doesn't really deal with the bridge-finding and sticking aspects of CK (ideally for gaining contact from a non-contact range - thus with minimum use for tactile sensitivity), or the short hip-generated 'bounce' or smothering energies of BG (itself useful for moving into grappling or attacking while disengaging or overwhelmed in the clinch).

Good application training from CK must include non-contact starts, and this can be done through limited free chi sao, starting with no contact, or through sparring. I favour two/three-step sparring for this ie, one person comes in with a combo of two or three full speed un-set strikes and you counter. Normal full-on continuous sparring is good too, but has some disadvantages I don't have time to go into now. Two/three-step sparring allows you to go more full-contact safely I think, while focusing on finding and utilising and in many cases delinking the bridge. It is also important as it reminds you very effectively that if there's no bridge, there's a strike, and if necessary the strike or it's follow-through give you the opportunity to use your sensitivity to read your opponent's balance and take it with some sweep/takedown/grappling move. So the strike to the core becomes the bridge itself.

Just a few thoughts.

[DRleungjan]

About Master Kernspecht's sensitivity...well even as a joke I could see some of it being close to true if he's well trained. But that's just me saying... ;)

To me...sensitivity, as far as my limited experience with FSWCK is concerned, gives you what I like to call the 'chess mentality'. I have felt this through my sihings and sifu. They are just extraordinary when it comes to such. The seem to 'forsee' your actions even as far as your 'intent'.

To this effect I used to joke with some of my buddies when we used to play chess by saying to them that I played chess by 'feel' and not by actual moves. Being sensitive allows you to analyze a situation and react accordingly in a timely fashion. Of course a prerequisite to sensitivity is relaxation so it is VERY important for one to be relaxed to achieve that sensitivity. I wish I could say more but I am still learning myself. Just a couple of taels from yours truly.


DRleungjan :)

[Steeeve]

sensitivity drills for me mean when u have contact ...close range ...whatever if u go for wrestling or sriking.....nothing about tactile stuff ...chisao its not to feel the opponent but to find the opening for fininsh the fight with strike or grappling (throw ) or chinna ...when you have contact think for offensive ...chi sao is not for defensive its for contact split second and bingo u strike him ...the drills is for train ur sentivity to attack not for defense .....in kali we have hubud lubud and more drills with stick ,knife and empty hands...

The problem is too much WC players take chi sao like a combat drills ....now we have competition in chi sao...chi sao is like siu nim tau .....

anyway I read more what u mean and go to reply:)

Steeve

[stricker]

Grand Master Kernspecht's sensitivity in WingTsun is so good that he can feel yourvbreathing on contact with your limbs....i know a cranial osteopath who says they can do that and even feel your spinal fluid pulse through touching limbs so i guess its not outlandish but i think the thing to bear in mind is sensitivity is only one attribute. taking it to that extreme might be useless without eg structure power distance timing etc

[Mr Punch]

i know a cranial osteopath who says they can do that and even feel your spinal fluid pulse through touching limbs so i guess its not outlandish but i think the thing to bear in mind is sensitivity is only one attribute. See, through no fault of yours Stricker (I'm just using your answer to that post as an example) this thread is already drifting off topic and into bull****.

Who cares if Kernspecht can feel someone breathing through their arm?! :confused: The question was about sensitivity in combat! I know my opponent is breathing because he's trying to ****ing punch me! :D And I don't need a ****ing divining rod to hit him back! :rolleyes:

How important is the sensitivity aspect in stand-up? Take an adrenaline dump and tell me how sensitive your bridge needs to be! :D My aim in wing chun is to hit him and finish the fight by whatever means necessary, not to sing him Cum-by-Yah. Now if I find that level of contact where the sensitivity is going to be important, that's the clinch or grappling... and that's a different ballgame.


taking it to that extreme might be useless without eg structure power distance timing etcPrecisely! Well said.

[YungChun]

Conventional stand-up needs striking! This has no room or time for tactile sensitivity.

Disagree—and this completely contradicts the WCK system IMO.

WCK is striking based and clearly meshes striking with tactile sensitivity attributes..

The problem with some WCK folks is that they are thinking chi sao and not striking, when they should be "thinking" striking first and using sensitivity when needed, as when they get in your way, as in the clash...

If you are inside fighting--ha I sound like Gary--then you cannot rely on your eyes for feedback unless you want to work with a major delay.. Feeling has much less of a delay and is why it is trained in this system.

WCK sensitivity trains you how to react when this clash happens and how to use the energy in order to take control using striking. When most folks without this training get in this range they either cover and pray, turn and run, or throw random combos--that is if they don't use sensitivity, something even boxers use on the inside.. Sensitivity allows you to use both their energy--their intent and yours with superior timing to defeat them with various WCK tools and concepts if you need them, now if you can just land on the guy, well then, I agree, you don't really need much sensitivity.

But this misses the point, because training WCK sensitivity drills make you sensitive to body angles and position, kinesthetic awareness, something that has universal application be it for striking or not..

Don't you use sensitivity in sparring when using WCK striking attacks that are obstructed?

[Mr Punch]

The problem with some WCK folks is that they are thinking chi sao and not striking, when they should be "thinking" striking first That's what I'm saying, exactly.


...and using sensitivity when needed, as when they get in your way, as in the clash

If you are inside fighting--ha I sound like Gary--then you cannot rely on your eyes for feedback unless you want to work with a major delay.. Feeling has much less of a delay and is why it is trained in this system. ...Feeling in your expression here is not the same as tactile sensitivity ie, the sense of touch.


WCK sensitivity trains you how to react when this clash happens and how to use the energy in order to take control using striking. When most folks without this training get in this range they either cover and pray, turn and run, or throw random combos--that is if they don't use sensitivity, something even boxers use on the inside.. Sensitivity allows you to use both their energy--their intent and yours with superior timing to defeat them with various WCK tools and concepts if you need them, now if you can just land on the guy, well then, I agree, you don't really need much sensitivity. Again, you are not talking about the sense of touch. Of course you need contact to get these results but I don't think it's the same as tactile sensitivity: it seems we have completely different definitions!


But this misses the point, because training WCK sensitivity drills make you sensitive to body angles and position, kinesthetic awareness, something that has universal application be it for striking or not.. Precisely: the kinesthetic awareness is the key. If you're saying that is equal to tactile sensitivity I would have to say that that confusion is why some people mistake chi sao for combat training as opposed to practising some skill-sets that can be used in combat training.


Don't you use sensitivity in sparring when using WCK striking attacks that are obstructed?No. I can't say in all honesty that I'm trying to feel anything or using any sensitivity when I grab a blocking arm and lop it. The skill, the reflex I have developed to enable me to use this principle effectively has been trained using sensitivity training in chi sao, but that is the finger. The moon is still hitting him, and the jerking of his arm and taking his balance is part of the same action. I am not reconising any stimulus other than my arm being stopped in the act of a strike, and my instant change of direction/tech/energy is reflex.

I would also argue that boxers have the kinesthetic reflexes, but I wouldn't call that tactile sensitivity either. The time it would take to read tactile cues and for your brain to digest them would be wasted time, and nigh on impossible with the adrenaline kicking in.

[YungChun]

I don't know.. On the one hand Mr. Punch you are saying you are adapting through feel, but then saying that adapting through feel is too slow and unrealistic.. To me you are either adapting and changing based on feedback or you're not.. I'm not saying it is a cognitive process--yes THAT is too slow..

Too much focus on Lop, a Lop, or whatever, has to be there to happen--and then it is natural and automatic--hopefully. When you go to hit them and you clash the training allows you to adapt automatically yes but through feedback, through sensitivity..

What are we training to be sensitive to? Position and energy..

[Meklorien]

The problem with some WCK folks is that they are thinking chi sao and not striking, when they should be "thinking" striking first and using sensitivity when needed, as when they get in your way, as in the clash...

I have to respectfully disagree with this. WCK folks should not be thinking of ANYTHING when drilling or sparring. Thinking of doing chi sao when doing chi sao is AS bad as thinking of striking when striking.

I see too many demonstrations of wing chun where there is over emphasis placed on either one of these things. Don't mistake me... both are important. It is just that to consider them separately is part of the problem.

Making an effort to strike can quickly lead to greed. However, listening with your hands with other proper wing chun concepts in place (tension, structure, awareness, centerline) will assist it hitting all by itself.

[YungChun]

I have to respectfully disagree with this. WCK folks should not be thinking of ANYTHING when drilling or sparring. Thinking of doing chi sao when doing chi sao is AS bad as thinking of striking when striking.

I think this is largely semantics, BUT

First off when training something you better be thinking otherwise how can you evaluate and refine your performance..? In training, as Bruce said you are trying to create Natural Un-naturalness the un-naturalness is forged through a cognitive process, the result of which should be natural and THEN without a cognitive process.....

But the Chi Sao mindset isn't the same as a combat mindset. Chi Sao is a drill, where we cultivate WCK concepts and moves, combat is serious business. Most folks who spar see the difference in mindset and realize it's import.

But it depends on what we mean when we say "think". You can "think" about your next move in a game of chess.. This isn't the same kind of "think" that is meant here. In this case “think” means something more like "intent" or Yi in Cantonese, the intent to what I would call "attack the center" or attack period. When I Chi Sao my intent is to learn and improve my moves and attributes, when I fight my intent is to hurt, kill or maim--see the difference?

Good fighting, self defense, etc, IMO requires one to have a focused intent and this is what is meant by "think" here. Again the problem is that this "intent to attack" "intent to take the center" etc, is lacking and often replaced by a mindset that is comparable to a "relaxing Sunday afternoon of Chi Sao drilling.” I have heard many students say when you fight you just “chi sao them” and this shows a misunderstanding of the attributes, focus and intent needed in combat. Moreover IMO the attributes we develop will not express themselves right UNLESS you are truly “attacking” vs. waiting to Chi Sao someone who actually knows how to fight, you have to act and move with intent, great confidence and power.

The mindset and often relaxed pace that most use in drilling Chi Sao is not appropriate when sparring or fighting, the intent and split second action or inaction of the moment found in fighting does not exist in a drill, drilling and chi sao isn't fighting. How folks “think” about what they are doing will have a profound effect on performance and “wrong thinking” can often prevent what otherwise might be useful inside us from expressing itself combatively.

I can't agree that there should be no intent, if this is what you mean, I feel intent to attack and focus in important--it doesn't translate into being greedy to hit, rather, to focus on the opponent, and like a Cobra be ready to strike and enter when the moment is right, with the intent to "take him out", which, in fighting does not IMO manifest itself as it does in a warm and fuzzy Chi Sao session...

In other words intent, mindset and focus are key to combative success IMO.

[Meklorien]

I can't agree that there should be no intent....

I pretty much agree with everything you stated. Just wanted to clear this part up.

I most definitely did not mean intent, as I quite agree that without intent much "mental structure" is missing and most likely a visit to a doctor will ensue. I only meant that thinking during fighting is a bad idea. An example of what I mean would be if someone squared off with someone else and decided that they were going to "perform" a right hand trap on that person as soon as that person came within range. Another example would be deciding that a strike or chain punch to the face is ready when the person comes close enough. Thinking about what you are going to do to your opponent often sets yourself up for your opponent to use your thinking against you. While you're busy "doing" something, your opponent is simply paying attention to what you are trying to do. My money would be on the opponent in this scenario.

But most definitely the "easy Sunday chi sao" attitude is a bad thing to approach a fight with. For that matter, it is a bad idea to drill with too.

So basically, I agree with all you've stated.