Spinoff: Unarmed vs. Knife (v1.2)

[Knifefighter]

Since the unarmed vs. knife thread (original thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42442)]) has now moved into the flamethrowing segment of the program, this is a spinoff back into the realm of techniques and applications.

This is a clip that is representative of some pretty realistic training for empty-hands vs. the knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo

These were my comments after viewing the clip:



THAT is realistic training and pretty much the way it goes down. While these guys aren’t world beaters in terms of technique, they are spot on with their training and they will get better with time, especially if they learn some grappling and groundfighting principles. Good to see others doing pressure testing.

This is exactly the type of alive training I have been advocating. This is what you need to do to pressure test your stuff to see what works and what doesn’t. If you have not done training just like this but are espousing empty hand vs. knife techniques, you are living in a bubble. I'd be very surpised if the "deadly strikes/break their bones/crush their throats/throw on a chi na hold" crowd has done this type of training.

Anyone who wants to increase their chances of handling a knife attack should watch this video and emulate this type and intensity of training.

Good stuff… Kudos to these guys.

This thread is for those who are training in the same "live" manner as shown in the above clip.

While an unarmed encounter against a knife will often lead to injuries and, sometimes, even death, this type of training can help to develop responses that will increase the probability of “dying less often”. If you are training this way, you will find certain techniques and tactics work better and more consistently than others.

For those of you training in this “alive” manner, which specific things have you found have worked better for you (things you feel would give you a better chance of survival/minimal damage) and which things have you found to be less effective (increase the probability of getting you killed or seriously injured)?

[neilhytholt]

Instead of a bunch of clueless CMA people arguing about knife defenses, why don't you guys attend a seminar from some people who know what they're doing?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=691956#post691956

[Knifefighter]

There are a probably a couple of people who post here that are might be training in this manner. Those people are probably not clueless and those are the people towards whom this thread is directed.

And, yes, Sayoc kali seems to be a good system from my experience. Maybe a little too overboard for one living in modern society and wishing to avoid problems with law enforcement, IMO... but that is a separate thread, and not what this one is about.

[David Jamieson]

Since the unarmed vs. knife thread (original thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42442)]) has now moved into the flamethrowing segment of the program, this is a spinoff back into the realm of techniques and applications.

This is a clip that is representative of some pretty realistic training for empty-hands vs. the knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo

These were my comments after viewing the clip:



This thread is for those who are training in the same "live" manner as shown in the above clip.

While an unarmed encounter against a knife will often lead to injuries and, sometimes, even death, this type of training can help to develop responses that will increase the probability of “dying less often”. If you are training this way, you will find certain techniques and tactics work better and more consistently than others.

For those of you training in this “alive” manner, which specific things have you found have worked better for you (things you feel would give you a better chance of survival/minimal damage) and which things have you found to be less effective (increase the probability of getting you killed or seriously injured)?

I agree. that clip shows the kind of intensity required. I have several clips of myself and others doing training parallel to what is in that clip.

In one, I have a friend who takes it over the top crazy monkey swinging screaming attacking his training partner during a session, it's funny in some respects, but that is what really happens.

wooden and aluminum knives have bruised me up pretty good from this type of training and have given me a respect for the knife that I didn't have before in a non pressure environment.

this kind of stuff, dog brothers and alive training like it are by far the most realistic training one can do as opposed to compliant drills and such.

Neil, the kali stuff is about how to use a blade offensively or against another blade. There will be good stuff in it I am sure. But offensive and defensive are different training paths.

[Knifefighter]

wooden and aluminum knives have bruised me up pretty good from this type of training and have given me a respect for the knife that I didn't have before in a non pressure environment.
So which techs, strategies, tactics have you found to be workable and which haven't?

[MasterKiller]

From that clip, it looks like the difference in training is getting stabbed 30 times instead of 60 times. :eek:

[Knifefighter]

From that clip, it looks like the difference in training is getting stabbed 30 times instead of 60 times. :eek:

This thread is for a technical discussion about what works and what doesn't and is for those who train in this manner.

Maybe I need to start a separate thread just for comments?

On second thought... nevermind. Let's throw the comments in here too for now.

[neilhytholt]

If you really think that Sayoc Kali is just about offense then you really are even more clueless than I first thought.

[Knifefighter]

Moving this here from the other thread:



The comments on the vid i posted pretty much gave me the insight i was looking for, HOWEVER, there seems to be a lack of full committment on the defenders actions( i guess so as not to seriously hurt the other because after all it is a demo that is designed to come as close as possible to the real confrontation)
I think the defenders who did not seem to be giving full commitment were just overwhelmed by the knife attack. When I do this type of training, I have found that the defender has to defend against the knife, or risk being "killed". By doing so, he loses much of his offensive capability.

By default, he has to stay in this relative defensive mode because if he does decide to launch offensively, he opens himself up to the overwhelming advantage of the blade.


Its tough Its tough though since we just cant all go around breaking each others arm and joints and such. and we seem to want to pull our attacks to the face or vitals and for good reason.
That’s why they are wearing headgear and cups. Headgear, cups, and maybe some additional eye protection allows the defender to go all out. With just these three things, you can pretty much do any technique as hard as you want.

[Knifefighter]

If you really think that Sayoc Kali is just about offense then you really are even more clueless than I first thought.
I think he means that the main focus of Sayoc (in terms of the knife), like all FMA styles, is the use of the blade.

In Sayoc, 85-95% of blade time will be spent training in using a blade, rather than fighting empty-handed vs. one.

[neilhytholt]

I think he means that the main focus of Sayoc, like all FMA styles, is the use of the blade.

In Sayoc, 85-95% of blade time will be spent training in using a blade, rather than fighting empty-handed vs. one.

They have a lot of drills that are empty handed versus a blade. I haven't seen any CMA that trains specifically for this beyond very basic techniques.

Anyways, I'm a bit tired of this. I've decided that all of you and me are just wankers who shouldn't be posting during working hours.

[Knifefighter]

They have a lot of drills that are empty handed versus a blade. I haven't seen any CMA that trains specifically for this beyond very basic techniques.
Exactly... however, I think there might be one or two here who train in other, more realistic methods.


I've decided that all of you and me are just wankers who shouldn't be posting during working hours.
Very true... but I'm my own boss, so I can post as much as I want.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I have the 3 of 9 Vital Template for Sayoc Kali and I'm really not impressed. Maybe it's my training with WWII combatives and the stipped down approach but it seems to me that if you've got a knife, just defang the snake and go home! I thought there was too much trapping and too much intricate cutting and patterns (something that is common in many FMA)

[Knifefighter]

Iit seems to me that if you've got a knife, just defang the snake and go home! I thought there was too much trapping and too much intricate cutting and patterns (something that is common in many FMA)
I like their multiple knives approach.
I've seen a clip of them stickfighing NHB with no protective gear at all.
One of their instructors did a kick a$$ job with the stick at a Dog Bros gathering.


As far as the "too fancy" stuff in FMA, I agree.
That's why for empty-hand vs. stick, I prefer the Red Zone, STAB, and Dog Catcher approaches better.... most of the BS has been taken out through pressure testing.

[WinterPalm]

My experience in training has given me several insights. Fortunately we've been working on knife defense every class for over a month at this point and I've had a lot of time to experience committed attacks and the results of the type of training albeit with a little less swearing than the clip above.:D (This isn't to say I've got the answers or that a month of intensive practice is enough but it's been on my mind a lot).

I seperate the approaches of knife fighting against myself in several ways.

Attacker:
1.) FMA type quick little slips and slashes from all sorts of angles followed by attacks.
2.) Using the open hand to grab, fake, distract.
3.) Sewing machine type attacks from one or many angles.
4.) Big aggressive angled attacks...more like an untrained swinging haymaker. (A fellow security guard was stabbed with an upward pointed blade swung right to left like a slice but with the intention of stabbing my friend. He got out of the way and turned but took a decent cut to the midsection).
5.) And based on all of those: Tight or Loose attacks...some attacks are one or the other out of the necessity of the attackers purpose.

Defense:
0.) Run!!!!!!!
1.) Control the blade.
2.) You will get cut (Mindframe and reality here...you might not get cut...but chances are you will just hopefully not too bad).
3.) Going to the ground is your best bet for control.
4.) No technique is set in stone.
5.) Environment!

Through training I consider these things and my Sifu has addressed basic ways of defending these different attacks.

Put into the mix in a full contact environment.
1.) Control the knife arm and disrupt sight, breathe, balance while maintaining some form of control over the knife hand.
2.) Get them down and rain shots in from whatever source and angle. To use wrestling or jiujitsu terminology...sidemount on the knife side preferrably with a knee on the knife arm near elbow and wrist, free hand, (if one) control the neck, eyes... when the chance provides itself, knees, elbows, fists, whatever to the face neck, head region.
Short range leg attacks and trips are good when in conjunction with knife control. I do not favour the push-kick, side kick approach as I train with a crafty fast guy and it never goes over too well.
Worry more about the knife hand and take a couple shots from the other arm if you have to.
Do not give up the arm with the knife! Persist.
Often on the ground when trying to perform an armbar I find opponents slipping about and snakey in their movements and using strikes to the head, if given the chance seem to work.
Domination and relentless spirit is imperative.

Those are some of my observations.

Good thread and logical extension from the other one!

I know I don't have internet authority to change the path a bit but does anybody agree that you must learn the first small steps before progressing towards full out contact??

[neilhytholt]

I like their multiple knives approach.
I've seen a clip of them stickfighing NHB with no protective gear at all.
One of their instructors did a kick a$$ job with the stick at a Dog Bros gathering.


As far as the "too fancy" stuff in FMA, I agree.
That's why for empty-hand vs. stick, I prefer the Red Zone, STAB, and Dog Catcher approaches better.... most of the BS has been taken out through pressure testing.

You guys are so weird. These are like the best knife and stick fighters in the world and you're talking about other better stuff?

What planet are you from?

[n00854180t]

Hey all (first post).

I still like the idea of jamming your hand onto the attacker's knife, then going in to disable him. Sure, your hand is screwed for a while, but you're not dead.

[The Willow Sword]

I am going to put this initial post back over here.

so here it is.

In Aikido and Aiki-juitsu there are techniques that deal with the defense of weapon in hand. Although in demonstration the willing participant allows the technique to be executed properly. IN actual combat there is a tension in the arm of the weapon holder that makes it difficult to manipulate. Easy to grasp onto but difficult to control. i think that is why most if not ALL techniques in JMA as well as Chin Na in CMA focus on getting to those joints. Trapping is harder than it seems, especially when the guy with the knife is constantly stabbing or slashing at you. It takes a timing and a will power that not many possess to truly be able to execute. Maybe it is easy in demonstration and application in a controlled setting, but far more difficult in the actual scenario.

I think that if i were theone defending in that situation(as if i were on that vid) i wouldnt even wait for the guy to draw his knife. i would attack immediately. all that peac0ck grandstanding and initial confrontation gives the attacker ample time to distract you with his bullsh!t and THEN he goes for the knife( i wouldnt give him enough time to do so, and if in the scuffle he starts to go for the knife i THEN have a much better chance of subduing him.

i guess maybe this is a point that we havent touched on that if confronted there is an initial time period where the machismo get up in your face attitude takes place and is a preparation for something more to happen. IF in THAT particular situation you can dispell it before it happens then you have prevailed.

ok now i KNOW parts of the original post were commented on, but here are the parts that havent been commented on that i am interested in reading from other posters here.

Glad we could continue this here.
TWS

[Knifefighter]

Those are some of my observations.
Good post... looks like I was mistaken about you not training realistically. Obviously you have.

However, I still don't believe your sifu took out a trained knifer in 6 seconds. Is this something you saw, and did you know the FMA guy or felt his stuff?




I know I don't have internet authority to change the path a bit but does anybody agree that you must learn the first small steps before progressing towards full out contact??
The sooner contact is begun, the sooner those small steps can be applied.

[Knifefighter]

You guys are so weird. These are like the best knife and stick fighters in the world and you're talking about other better stuff?

What has your experience been with Sayoc to consider them to be the best in the world?

[Knifefighter]

I think that if i were theone defending in that situation(as if i were on that vid) i wouldnt even wait for the guy to draw his knife. i would attack immediately. all that peac0ck grandstanding and initial confrontation gives the attacker ample time to distract you with his bullsh!t and THEN he goes for the knife( i wouldnt give him enough time to do so, and if in the scuffle he starts to go for the knife i THEN have a much better chance of subduing him.
Good observation... that's the best opportunity to try to deliver that one punch KO.

[David Jamieson]

So which techs, strategies, tactics have you found to be workable and which haven't?

1. escape
2. sieze and control the blade arm, break the structure and take the weilder down to the ground.
3.for above, moving to the side gates comes first.
4.mobility and evasion and looking for the path to #1
5. using obstacles (tables/counters anything that puts distance and an obstacle between you)
6. using movable obstacles (chairs etc)
7. getting and using a makeshift weapon that is longer (mop/broom/chair)
8. throwing makeshift objects while maintaining mobility (stones, dirt, objects)

these work well with #2-3 preceding a variety of disarms

what didn't work well.

1.trying to stop him from the centre and try to take both arms.
2.staying up to long using force on force, you get tired and the knifer has too many more opportunities, (this is where i got a lot of the bruises.)
3.fishing for the blade hand while it is in motion that is not direct attack.(this got hits on my arms a lot)
4.trying to move to the back gate before seizing (too much time to get to the back door)
5. clashing head on and trying to strike

what worked with some sucess

1.fast push kicking and creating space while shouting
2.moving to a side gate and going for a headshot

in all cases - head gear and a mouth guard (for those attempts that involve striking.

[Yum Cha]

"Die less Often"

Very romantic, very hardcore, very misleading"

You train under the assumption that if the opponent gets you only a few times, instead of dozens of times, its ok. Its not.

It also occurs to me that like all kinds of gambling, the longer you play, the more you lose. You win, and you grab your chips and leave the table.

Trying to control and maintain means you stay in range longer. Breaking bones, maiming, disabling and retiring seems to be more like playing the odds.

We're all players here, some better some worse, we love the academic and theoretical side of the activity as much as the physical, and that's sweet.

Reality based training is certainly better than fantasy based training, but explain to me why armour and play knives is more "Reality" than fantasy, especially when you allow youreslf to get tagged multiple times and continue?

No disrespect, I think its a common challenge, how to emulate a life and death situation without really risking life and death. I just want to re-voice the fact that this is really simply academic.

You may be lucky and disarm a drunk with cerebral palsy one day, but the guy that tried to disarm the knife expert probably isn't here to add his story to the forum.

[rogue]

This is good (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY_6nQT89vQ&mode=related&search=) but they are not using their environment much at all.

It's still good training.

[Knifefighter]

"Die less Often"

Very romantic, very hardcore, very misleading"

You train under the assumption that if the opponent gets you only a few times, instead of dozens of times, its ok. Its not.
No, that's not what it means.

If one is honest with himself, he knows that he gets "killed" in training quite often. The idea of "die less often" is to develop techniques, strategies, tactics and responses that will give him a better chance of "surviving" these training sessions. After becoming more proficient in these things, one does, indeed, die less often in practice.

The better one gets and the more often he "survives" in training, the better chance he will have of surviving a real encounter with a blade.

[Green Cloud]

I liked the realistik fight scenerios but I wasn't impressed no knees elbows or wraping around the elbows a real lack of control. You would better off runing, personaly I like the Krav Maga stuff better.

[Knifefighter]

explain to me why armour and play knives is more "Reality" than fantasy, especially when you allow youreslf to get tagged multiple times and continue?\
Armor is used so that they can take and give hard shots and lessen injuries. This lets them train full force and more often without being out with injuries.

Continuing on is stressed because knife attacks are highly survivable. People often survive multiple wounds from edged weapons. Maintaining the action teaches a person not to give up just because he has taken damage (this is the same principle used in modern law enforcement training). It also allows one to work on specific techniques that are often applied after a shot or two has been received.

[Knifefighter]

I liked the realistik fight scenerios but I wasn't impressed no knees elbows or wraping around the elbows a real lack of control. You would better off runing, personaly I like the Krav Maga stuff better.
Technically, they weren’t that great. However, they will most likely get better with time in terms of technique. Their stuff will probably end up being more effective than 95% of the KM out there specifically because they are pressure testing what they are doing.

[WinterPalm]

Good post... looks like I was mistaken about you not training realistically. Obviously you have.

However, I still don't believe your sifu took out a trained knifer in 6 seconds. Is this something you saw, and did you know the FMA guy or felt his stuff?




The sooner contact is begun, the sooner those small steps can be applied.


6,7,8, or so seconds.
I have not seen many people that well trained on a knife so I can't comment on his ability. But he was all over the place with his flowing movement. At the time he was doing it for over half his life, about sixteen years and was an instructor at the school he came from. Amidst all the phooey on the net, I don't post lies or make things up. This is what happened. I don't care if you don't believe me. But consider this, you'be probably met someone that was really well skilled, and they took out somebody very skilled in a situational full contact training setting. I suppose you could say that with his training, he dies less often.

Now that you've explained what that means, I like the phrase.

I am staunch on training the principles, concepts, and techniques in a complient atmosphere with endless repetition. I am also staunch on full contact application of these concepts and techniques. More often than not, if thrown in too fast, even more experienced people dealing with new concepts, they die more often. So different strokes for different folks but I would never suggest training with only one or the other in exclusion.

[Knifefighter]

you'be probably met someone that was really well skilled, and they took out somebody very skilled in a situational full contact training setting. I suppose you could say that with his training, he dies less often. .
That's the thing... I've never seen what you are claiming your instructor has done.

Does your instructor ever travel to the states? If so, I'd love to see a demonstration of this claim.

In the meantime...

David-
It sounds like you've had some realistic training unarmed against the blade.
You've also trained with WP's instructor.
What's your opinion?
Do you think he could do what WP is claiming against a trained knifer?

[David Jamieson]

That's the thing... I've never seen what you are claiming your instructor has done.

Does your instructor ever travel to the states? If so, I'd love to see a demonstration of this claim.

In the meantime...

David-
It sounds like you've had some realistic training unarmed against the blade.
You've also trained with WP's instructor.
What's your opinion?
Do you think he could do what WP is claiming against a trained knifer?

I can't speak for anyone else, just myself.

[LeeCasebolt]

From that clip, it looks like the difference in training is getting stabbed 30 times instead of 60 times. :eek:

It's a start. When I started training knife work I knew, intellectually, that knives are dangerous. The first time I did knife sparring, I realized I had no concept of just how dangerous. We're just "playing" with rubber knives, sure, but having the edge run across your skin a few times is eye-opening, nonetheless.

I like all of David's observations. I've found the same things to be true, though I'm foolishly persistent on the #2 and #3 mistakes - especially #3. One thing I've been taught and found to be true - "stab-backs" are usually easier and more efficient than disarms.




4) it seemed like some of the guys took multiple stabs, but kept going: at what point do you realize that you are dead meat?

Varies depending on the scenario, but erring on the side of later rather than sooner. People have survived the most heinous things; no point in training to give up early.

[rogue]

5) if you think you are likely to ever get into a knife fight, most advocates say you should carry your own - I would agree with this whole heartedly in theory - in practice, I choose not to invite that sort of thing into my life...

A problem with most advocates is that they have never really been attacked with a knife. As with any weapon it's usually not in your hand when trouble starts so that means getting it deployed and using it before you get gutted. Add into that mix the lag time that is natural to reacting to any surprise and your chances of deploying drop even further. I know several people who have been attacked with knives and none of them had time to draw their own weapon (most even recommended not to even bother to try) but some did manage to use a handy object as a weapon.

When testing how quick you can deploy any weapon try the Tueller Drill (http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm).

[Hitman]

Knife fighter,
Here is some thing for you to think about - Some ancient unarmed karate practitioners who fought against the armed Japanese invaders.


http://www.kungfucinema.com/people/hwang_jang_lee.htm

Although Hwang Jang Lee is Korean by birth, he was actually born in the outskirts of Osaka, Japan. Hwang studied Taekwondo and boxing from an early age against his parents will and during the 70's acted as martial arts trainer to Korean troops stationed in Vietnam.

During his tour of duty as a martial arts instructor in Vietnam he was challenged by a south Vietnamese knife expert. The challenge was over 30 seconds later. His opponent lay dead, killed by a well executed round kick to the head by Hwang.

Hitman

[AdrianUK]

Sayoc Kali

Don't judge the kali from the 3 of 9 DVD, thats the first most basic thing you learn to show ways of clearing the defending arm and angles of attack, as for unarmed theres Sayoc Silak for that, the Kali is far more blade offensive orientated and the training drills get very realistic indeed. If your into the full on training they do meet for no armour full contact stick fighting and from what I hear it usually goes to the ground, if I get to the point to take part one day I will be sure to post the outcome ! (no video as its not allowed)

Regards,
Adrian

(Training Sayoc Kali under Guro Krishna Godhania in the UK)

[yenhoi]

Some of mine:

Hit the other guy! Hit him with anything and everything. Headbutts, knees, and elbows are of the utmost, 'specially if one or both hands/arms is busy makeing sure you dont die.

Sectoring works: use footwork and other de-escalation flak and chaf to make the weapon come to you. Which it will anyways, but you know what I mean.

Control blade - not necessarily two arms vs one, but once the blade is in play, you need to know where exactly it is, and the best way is to touch/control the actual blade or hand/arm that holds the blade.

Use ground and obstacles for extra control (less variables at any rate.) This shouldent mean 'any take down' - the drags and sacrafices are exactly that - you either drag the knife into or accross yourself, or sacrafice your life entirely. Slam people into the ground (even if you are already there), slam them into walls and poles and corners, or even run and fall (or both) into stuff.

More protection, and less "little steps" - the sooner and harder you do this type of training, the better. "Defenders" need to learn to really attack- hard, fast, and unrelenting.

Use weapons of your own. Car door, sticks, your blades, etc.

Multiple blades/weapons should be addressed also.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

You can, through "scenario" training, re-create the conditions of a real stranger attacking you. Even in the dark, in your car, or in a movie theater. Its easy, just use a real stranger.

Scenario training is another subject, I think.

There also should be some talk of the whole pre-fight/pre-blade portion of the drilling. Body language, pre-emptive attacking, etc.

:eek: