Royce speaks out on the UG

[Badger]

Subject: I want to put an end to the talks right here
From: Royce Gracie
Date: 22-Oct-01 | 04:47 PM

There has been a lot of talking on the internet, here on UG and other forums, that Royce is not going to fight,
Royce can not hang in there, this and that, and this and that. This is what I have to say, Royce will fight again.
I do not have to fight every day you see. Look at Mike Tyson, he does not fight every day. I have been there, I
was there in the ring, before people had any knowledge of what NHB is like. Everyone likes to talk, never had a
fight in their lives, but like to talk, its ok to talk its a free country, but I think that you should show some respect, if
you have never done it yourself. Step in the ring with people I have been in the ring with, do what I do, be
where I have been and then talk to me, you see, its easy to watch a fight on TV and say well Royce can not
hang in with TOP fighters and Royce can not do this, and Royce can not do that. Hey I have been doing this
for a long time, and I have been in the ring when no one knew what to expect, I did not have footages on my
oponents to study and figure out their game, I just step in the ring and did my job.

Like I said, this is America, you want to talk, talk, but this is what I have to say, if you are such a tough guy, show
up when I am in town and tell this stuff to my face, talk to me insted hide behind fake names, and fake e-mail
addresses.

Royce is not gone, I am in best shape of my life, and I am ready to fight, but I have principals by which I live,
principals that have been established in my family way before anyone in America knew what NHB is, and I stick
by those principals. Is that wrong, I do not think so. And if these so called Top guys are such top guys, what is
wrong with what I am asking, NO RULES, we step in and see who is the best. End of the story.


[

"When life hands you a blank, load it anyway and act real intimidating."--Unknown l

[Dragon Warrior]

i agree with him
he has fought wars in the ring
also, i think his system works better with no rules, and no time limit, that was when royce really showed the power of his system.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[old jong]

Did he took internet lessons with Rolls? :D

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[shaolinboxer]

I think it is sad that he still feels the need to fight.

We all know how great he is already, and as he gets older his risk of getting injured gets much higher.

[MaFuYee]

mafuyee thinks royce is silly for referring to royce in the third person. mafuyee knows mafuyee would never do anything so silly.

Why would you say that I am insane? I wouldn't say that I've lost my mind simply because I've heard the voices and seen the godless things moving in the woods. If anything, I think more clearly now than ever before. - Ash

[Chang Style Novice]

Pride's a b!tch. He's earned the right to be proud, of course, and no one likes to think of themselves as over the hill. Still, if I were in his shoes I'd stick to teaching and only fight when I had to. Fighting for fun is for young, healthy guys.

To be fair, though, when he says he's in the best shape of his life, he's more qualified to make that judgement than I am. And like he says, I've never been where he's been. Probably never will, either.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Dragon Warrior]

I think Royce is awesome for fighting at his age. How old is he anyway? The guy loves to fight, nothing wrong with that.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Buhma]

Go Royce! Go Royce! It's your birthday!

<hr>
If ya ain't got the skills, I will take you out!

[Ralek]

Royce put a lot of kung fu guys in their place over the years. Sure he beat a few in the UFC. But if you want to see Royce's most interesting fights you should check out his challenge matches at the academy. Those fights are auwsome with no rules and royce is just playing with the kung fu guys by putting on chokes then letting them go and then pulling guard and triagleing them and switching to mounted triangles, beotch slapping them, ect.

Royce is the man!!!! Royce is the reason i bought the Gracie CD-ROM.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Dragon Warrior]

where can i see those fights?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Ralek]

Here's of Royce putting the smack down on a shaolin kung fu fighter.

www.bjj.org/images/royce-delucia.jpg (http://www.bjj.org/images/royce-delucia.jpg)

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Ralek]

Dragon Warrior. Try "Gracie Jiujitsu in Action Part 2"

The tape is WAY WAY overpriced by Rorion but it's the coolest fights you'll ever see including Rickson Gracie in a street fight at the beach.

Look at this. Kimo's arms are bigger than Royces legs!!! But royce wins by arm bar.
www.bjj.org/images/royce_kimo.jpg (http://www.bjj.org/images/royce_kimo.jpg)
Notice the subtle technique Royce uses. He's trying to pull Kimo down by the hair into a triangle if possible. His other hand is grabbing Kimo's wrist to stop punches. Royce is is auwsome.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Dragon Warrior]

i've seen those fights so many times

i want to see the ones that you are talking about, where he beats all these fighters in no rules challenge matches.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Ralek]

Yes. To see the fights i'm talking about. The challenge matches at the academy you need to get the video called "Gracie Jiujitsu in Action Part 2"


The pictures i posted are from UFC events. They are not on the IN ACTION Part 2 video.

The IN ACTION Part 2 video even has Rorion fighting a few challenge matches against kenpo and hapkido instructors!!!!

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Ralek]

Dragon Warrior. Here it is one more time. The challenge matches are on this tape:

GRACIE JIUJITSU IN ACTION PART 2

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Jaguar Wong]

Hey Ralek, what video was that again?

Jaguar Wong

[origenx]

Actually, I thought Kimo was doing pretty well in that fight until Royce pulled his ponytail out! But who knows what would have happened had Kimo had short hair and Royce not have taken that "cheap shot..."

[Dragon Warrior]

kimo was doing good, but he should have been smart enough to shave his head before fighting royce.

what i thought was amazing was how royce seemed to overpower kimo while they were standing. Royce had him pinned against the cage the whole fight. He definitly proved technique is more important than strength.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Xebsball]

Xebsball says Sakuraba is superior.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Knifefighter]

Many of the best, bloodiest, and funniest beat down challenge matches are on video tapes at the academy. Some of these are pretty hilarious. Many are fights between students and challengers that came into the academy.

[Dragon Warrior]

is there a link to any of these fights. ARe they on the internet?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Grappling-Insanity]

For all the guys making fun of Royce's typing. Remember english is his SECOUND language.

[Ralek]

Yeah. There are a lot of challenge matches at the gracie academy that aren't even for sale. Most of the videos are sitting in Rorion's office.

My favorite challenge match is Royce vs. a guy who claimed to be undefeated and had 15 years of experience in some kung fu style. Royce whopped him. Rorion reffered to him as "the kung fu representative wearing yellow trunks"

Rorion has loads of videos of challenge matches. I wish he would hurry up and make In Action Part 3 so i could see all of them.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Kung Lek]

Personally, I think the only Gracie who has even an ounce of class and respect for martial arts is the old man Helion.

the rest of them are just into it for money and for the most part act like thugs and car salesmen.

Like school on sunday, No class.
Ok, let's fight by my rules! :D yeesh.

Gee, I think Helion learnd Japanese Ju Jutsu too on top of it all.

anyway, not that grappling is bad, it's not, it is totally useful, but in a "reality" situation, like on the street, I'll take Kung Fu every time.
Stand up, keep up, and watch out for the thugs buddies.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Watchman]

Rolls,

That "kung fu guy in the yellow trunks" was Jason DeLucia. You're slipping man!

[qeySuS]

Kung Lek: I dont agree totally, i agree that Helio is one bad ass guy :) He's still soooo alive and kicking at his old age, i can only hope for this :) And yeah many Gracies are in it for the money, but since this is a thread about Royce i wouldnt say that he's in it for the money. I think Rorion was the one who got all the profits from the whole Gracie hype in the first UFC, all the T-Shirts, the academy and all that.

Only overpriced stuff i've seen Royce do is www.roycegracie.tv (http://www.roycegracie.tv) net club, i think it's like 500$ for a year membership, you get some seminars on tape, move of the month and chats with Royce. But hey he didnt get any of the money of his original hype, why not let him profit from this :)

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[Ralek]

Yes. Rorion is the only one who has turned BJJ into an advertising campain.

Most people have never even heard of Carley Gracie, Relson Gracie, Rickson Gracie, Ralph Gracie, Machados, Renzo, Royler, ect. Because they just teach and fight.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Grappling-Insanity]

Yah Kung thats why you Crosstrain !!

[JWTAYLOR]

Rolls, what video was that again?
JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[gazza99]

"Personally, I think the only Gracie who has even an ounce of class and respect for martial arts is the old man Helion.
the rest of them are just into it for money and for the most part act like thugs and car salesmen."

I agree with this, although the Gracies deserve the money,the main problem is that much of the thuggish traits seem to roll down hill the amatuer side creating entities like Ralek for example.
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[BAI HE]

Like I said, this is America, you want to talk, talk, but this is what I have to say, if you are such a tough guy, show
up when I am in town and tell this stuff to my face, talk to me insted hide behind fake names, and fake e-mail
addresses.

Like Emin Boestepe did?

The guy needs to stop whining, don't cry about talking crap when he and his took MMA public.
If he doesn't llike the ruls F-him.

Speaking of rules, all these rules that favor the grappling arts in these tourney's suck. Guys can shoot at will without worrying about strikes to the spine and neck. Nice.

Now go to Sherdog.com and watch Rickson's highlight tape. In one of the fights he has this big guy on the ground and knees him full strength directly in the spine. Watch the grimace on the poor *******s face.

I got hit VERY lightly on the spine before, my back and legs were stiff and pained for about a week. Rickson (Ralek's Hero) could have crippled that poor guy. So much for the rules.

I'd like to see this "famous" Rickson (the pinnacle of BJJ according to Rolls) actually fight a top guy.
9 fights against who? Who? Oops I'm an Owl.

He needs to:

Stick to the rules.

1 Fight Vanderlei Silva or Sak or someone
who can fight.

2 Pray Kimura-San never comes back from the dead

3 Learn how to strike and then teach Royce

4 And... keep his brother from whining.
What an azzholle.

[Jaguar Wong]

The Rickson fight (with the spine knee), was in an earlier event during the beginnings of MMA. There were no rules protecting the spine. Just like in the old days of the UFC. Also, Rickson is boasting a supposed 400+ fights undefeated. I don't know all the details, so I won't comment on the validity. I do know he's a pretty smooth fighter from what I've seen of him.

Jaguar Wong

[BAI HE]

Jag, It's still rotten. That poor ******* could have been paralyzed. For what a $3000 purse?
400+? He's smooth but not that smooth.

In today's information age people demand VALIDITY.

Boestepe is guilty of this as well. He claims to have had hundreds of street fights. Who saw them. Do you know how much time you would have to spend looking for a game opponent, much less actually fighting them?

Does he think he's Roberto Duran?
Anyone in Panama will tell you Roberto fought 500 times in the street and 100 times in the ring.

Royce fought alot of inexperienced, 2nd tier fighters in the early UFC's. Things have now heated up, real pro's have come out of obscurity and set the stage. Where is Royce?
Ryan at least has balls.

Where is Rickson?

Where have all the BJJ good times gone? They started an evolution that has passed them by and they know it.

[Watchman]

That poor ******* you're referring to was David Levicki.

That event was surely Night of the Tomato Cans!

[BAI HE]

Watchman -
I gasped when I saw that shot. That was nasty, thoughtless and abhorrent.
What was he thinking?

It's one thing if the tells the guy this is a real fight (to the death) but come on!
That was horrible.

If Rickson is so good, why has he only fought ( shemps?

I give Royce and Ryan props. Rickson should represent.

[Watchman]

I gasped when I saw that shot. That was nasty, thoughtless and abhorrent.

Well, Levicki (who incidentally happened to spun out on meth for that event) made a few "choice" comments to Rickson before the fight, so Rickson schooled him with that shot when he had the chance, and used punches from the mount to submit rather than go for his patented rear naked choke finish for the same reason.

[Ralek]

You guys are mad at Rickson? What for? I can tell you that none of the Gracie's are thugs except for Rorion.

Rorion is the ONLY Gracie that is a thug. Some people say that Ryan Gracie is a thug becuase he stabbed that guy with a knife in a street fight. But he stabbed the guy in SELF-DEFENSE. Ryan was un-armed and the guy came at him with a knife and Ryan took the knife away from the guy and stabbed him in self-defense. That is not being a thug. That is self defense.

Rickson is probably the nicest of all the Gracie's. He is nice to everyone. You guys are a bunch of pusies if you hate him becuase he kneed that guy in the back. It's a Vale Tudo fight. Getting kneed in the back is no big deal. David Levicki was a wing chun expert that out-wieghed Rickson by 100 pounds. Rickson easily took him down and kneed his back. No big deal.

Rickson is the man. He is undefeated. He is in his forties and he beat Funaki who is 10 years younger than him and was a top NHB fighter who had defeated virtually all the other top NHB fighters. But Rickosn destroyed him and choked him Funaki unconsious. This was about a year ago.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Watchman]

David Levicki was a wing chun expert

If you call a washed-up meth addict with less than a full years worth of Wing Chun training (which he quit because it was "too demanding") an expert, then I suppose you and I have different ideas on what the term "expert" means. :rolleyes:

Fact is, Levicki was a novelty because of his size - nothing more.

[BAI HE]

"Well, Levicki (who incidentally happened to spun out on meth for that event) made a few "choice" comments to Rickson before the fight, so Rickson schooled him with that shot when he had the chance, and used punches from the mount to submit rather than go for his patented rear naked choke finish for the same reason."

Didn't know the Meth angle. Fortunately it hasn't caught on out here in the East yet.
"Choice words?" C'mon Watch, words are words. Unless they involve my Wife or my Sister, I can't be worked up.

If Rickson could have taken him "Naked" he should have.
I don't like that spine shot at all. Under any circumstance other than saving one's life or the life of a loved one. THAT IS A LETHAL AND PERMANENTLY INJURIOUS TACTIC.
Rickson was clearly in control of the match. There was no need.

There is such a thing as " Buddah's law of Brutal compassion". It didn't apply here.

MMA is a sport. One not need lose the use of their legs for $1500. If so, they should be told this is the case.

We always agree Watch, but I can't stand with you on this one.

If you wan't to talk Islamic extremists and the the logistical viability of the 50 cal. in the the ground theater. Hell I'm right back at Yah!

Regards,
Your favorite Yank,
Pete

[Knifefighter]

BAI HE:
Have you ever seen anyone paralyzed by a spine shot? I've seen many delivered and taken quite a few myself. Never seen anyone close to paralyzed.

[Watchman]

I wasn't justifying Rickson's knee shot to Levicki's spine - just relating what Levicki personally told me.

As far as the "morality" of it is concerned, my simple opinion is if you don't want to get hit in the spine don't particpate in vale tudo matches.

One not need lose the use of their legs for $1500. If so, they should be told this is the case.

The fighters are, in fact, required to sign permanent death and disabitity waivers before they are allowed to fight. If someone wants to put their body on the line for the potential payoff, then as far as I'm concerned, go after it.

[chokeyouout2]

This is such old hat.But it still irks me too think there is people like you who choose to believe that emin bostepe challenged any member of the gracie camp to their face.At the time of these allegations, there was a open door policy at the Gracie Torrance Academy.Lots of people showed up to test their skills.Emin never showed anything but his mouth.A alternate venue was offered, the LAPD training facility.Again Emin didn't show anything but his mouth.This is why royce called him a clown.

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[JWTAYLOR]

KF, I have, recently, seen a shot to the back of the neck that left a man paralized for some time. Surgery was able to fix this, but only after fusing vertebrae together, leaving him quite permanently unable to bend his neck very much at all. This was during a test at our school.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[BAI HE]

Vasco - It's all out there on the web. Maybe the Gracie's don't have access, but I find that hard to believe. They are after all Master Marketers.

Roycs has the time, presence of mind and net savvy to find out when he's being slagged. How does he run a google search without finding Boestepe's challenge?

Knife - Paralyzed? Daryll Stingley NE Patriots, courtesy of Jack Tatum, by NFL rules that was a clean hit. It makes what Rickson did seem like a hug.
Watch that guy's face when that knee lands.

The Rickson thing? I don't like it. Never will.
He could have paralyzed that guy. If it's a sport, where is the sportsmanship?

Rickson is tough. When he proves it against the best of the best (Sak, Silva, Belfort etc..) Then he can smile.
Hell Knife, you've probably fought more than 9 times and probably against better opponents.

[Stranger]

Bai He,

Rickson is too old to have to prove anything. You fight in a cage to build a rep., his is already made. It wouldn't be safe for him to get hit by a young powerful striker at his age. We let boxers retire, why not let Rickson do his semi-retirement thing?

Rickson kneed him in the spine, but he would not of hesitated to drop an elbow on Rickson's spine if a sloppy double leg attempt had been executed. Spine shots were legal and both fighters knew that before they entered the ring.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Grahf1]

Kung Lek -

Saying that Helio is the only Gracie who respects the martial arts is an ignorant statement.

Bae He -

Why don't you tell all the Kung Fu guys that complain about the UFC rules how barbaric they are?

[BAI HE]

I'll take it from you Stranger.
Unlike say, Ali, these guys can no longer back it up. THE SPORT HAS EVOLVED AND BLOWN BY THESE GUYS.
I don't care if he tapped Royce in his underoos every X-mas morning for ten years. IT DOESN'T PROVE SHEEET. So Ralek should find a HERO who actually walks the walk like RUTTEN, SAK, F.SHAMROCK, ORTIZ, ETC.

As far as Rickson goes? Well never up, never in.
And if he actually fights Sak? He'll find out the meaning of the word "evolution". Take a look at his record on Sherdog.com. Wow! He really wrecked on some household names there

Just remember Rickson fought 9 times. His family is one of the biggest crap talking syndicates on record. tHEY INVENTED A GAME THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN COMPETE IN ANYMORE.
In the early days they could...then the serious MMA guys started to get involved and...bye bye Gracies.

I suppose the money wasn't right for any of the twenty Gracies to fight Raus?

BJJ - Superior? Ask Sakuraba.


!

[BAI HE]

Steffi Graf - "Why don't you tell all the Kung Fu guys that complain about the UFC rules how barbaric they are?"

Nobody bothers with the UFC anymore, because it's crap. MMA has outgrown the UFC.
Why fight for chump change?
Serious MMA's don't.

Are they to ***** to fight SanShou or Sabaki or K-1? Are they?

Maurice Smith had the balls to fight in these "NHB" tourney's.

Why can't some speedo head like Befort fight K-1?
It pays good. Why not?

THE RULES.

At least Frank Shamrock is giving it a go. What about the rest?

:eek:

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah! And how come Pete Sampras doesn't play pro football, what's he afraid of?

The RULES!

Why doesn't Barry Bonds compete in the PGAA tour?

The RULES!

Why doesn't Michael Jordan play baseball?

The RU...wait, never mind.

My point is, people gravitate toward what they are good at, even if the different circuits are pretty similar in intent. If you're not suited to K1 rules or what have you, why embarass yourself and spread your energy thin when you can concentrate on Pride and make a real go of it?

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[HuangKaiVun]

Everybody can talk trash about the Gracies, but who'd be dumb enough to go seek them out and challenge them to a true fight?

I applaud Royce Gracie for reminding us all that the Internet makes bullies out of cowards - but REALITY makes cowards out of bullies.

[BAI HE]

Chang -
Yet strikers are improving...we're seeing a lot more KO and TKO in these matches. Or have you been sleeping?

Bas Rutten was the prototype...the rest is history

[Chang Style Novice]

Sleeping, I guess. I don't follow these competitions much. I'm just saying if I were a professional fighter-athlete, I'd experiment for a little while, find my niche, and stick with it.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Xebsball]

From what i've heard Ryan's thing wasnt self-defense and BTW the other guy was a BJJ dude too.

400+ wins??
BOOOOO****!

But i've heard Rickson is nice and humble and stuff from a Tai Chi person that spoke to him.

One more thing, i've heard from very reliable sources that a WING CHUN person defeated a BJJ GRACIE TOP STUDENT some time ago. The name of any of them can be revealed, the wing chun then made an agreement with the gracies.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Watchman]

Yup, that was me.

Ooops! Rorion&copy; is going to sue me for revealing my identity!! :eek:

[chokeyouout2]

What a load of ****.What is true is the fact that lots of guys showed up to take the challenge.Emin didn't.Ryan,Ralph,Renzo,Royler,Rickson,Relson, and even Rorion have all put their skills on the line.I have seen them all fight on different occasions.When has Mr. Bostepegone betond internet challenges and put his skills to the test like any of the aforementioned people have?Screw the gracies anyways, there is a new breed of fighters coming from every part of the world.The list is to big even to mention.You need to realise the times have changed since 1994.If you are truly interested in MMA, or want to learn a little, you'll have to look betond your local video store.These guys don't fight for free and have very little time for has-beens and never will be's.Not too say Bostepe can't fight or teach, but the challenge is a hoax.

peace

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Badger]

Royce is still the King. You people aint nothing but hounddogs.Don't be cruel or Royce will send you to the heartbreak hotel.Don't get his temperture rising.If any of you went 1 round with Royce you would be all shook up.Royce is itching like a man on a fuzzy tree getting ready for his next fight. Remember when closing the gap wisemen say only fools rush in. Let's Rock!Everybody lets Rock!HEEYYY!!!!


f http://home.mindspring.com/~mlx8570924/_uimages/ElvisGi.jpg

Badger


¨

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

[chu yun]

LOL! Now that was funny!

[Merryprankster]

Bai He, (sorry if I've misspelled; I am too lazy to make sure)

First: The rules do not favor grapplers any more than strikers. There are rounds in place now, which means that a grappler has to give up the ground game to go sit in the corner, and get exposed to the kicks and punches of his opponents yet again. Some tournaments have mandatory stand-ups if the fight is too long on the ground with "inaction." That certainly doesn't benefit the grappler! I realize that some strikes are illegal, but if your punches and kicks aren't doing the job, something is wrong with your punches and kicks. Don't fault the rules.

Here is the common argument:

"My martial art is about more than vital points! We punch and kick as hard and as well as anybody. We counter grapple too."

"Ok, then show us. Here is a set of rules both parties agree to. Are you game?"

"What? I'm not allowed to strike to vital points? These rules are too restrictive and favor grapplers. You've limited my arsenal."

"But I thought you said it wasn't all about vital points?"

"It's not."

"Then show us..."

AD NAUSEUM

My Point: You can't have it both ways. The other argument I hear is that certain techniques are too dangerous for the ring, then they ***** when they are included as unsportsmanlike. Again, you can't have it both ways.

Second: The early events had the following rules: No eye-gouges, no fishhooks, no biting, no time limits. There was nothing about vital points or anything else. Those rules don't favor GRAPPLERS. And yet the victories Royce and Severn and some others won in those early UFC's were all against tomato cans? There were a few well trained fighters in those events, Orlando Weit, Guy Metzger, Remco Pardu, and that one full contact Karate guy. SOME of the opponents were tomato cans. Some were not. Watch PRIDE now, and you'll see the same thing still. Some are highly skilled, others are not.

I do agree that the NHB game has evolved beyond strictly grappling, but to say that the rules somehow favor grapplers is silly.

[Ralek]

They just say that rules favor grapplers to help them cope with the emotional stress of seeing all their kung fu and karate hero's get beat up.

I think Kung fu guys are ashamed becuase they lost in the early NHB tournaments where vital points and neck breaks were legal.

Then all of a sudden there are rules against spine shots and the kung fu guys start protesting!!! Why couldn't the kung fu guys win when those "lethal" targets were allowed?

And why are they complaining about a Vale Tudo held in japan with few rules? I thought kung fu guys loved their fights to be free of rules?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks for backing me up Ralek. Everything I just said lost credibility now.

[Badger]

Oh well whaddya gonna do? :rolleyes:

Badger

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¨

[JasBourne]

Normally I don't even look at these tired "MMA vs kungfu" threads. But I figured, well, let's see what all the fuss is about.

So I went down to Blockbuster and I rented every single UFC and Pride tape they had available.

I actually sat through this drivel, and watched every single 'fighter', despite whatever discipline or style they claimed, immediatly abandon any pretense of using their professed style and start rasslin' like a kid in the schoolyard.

Well no duh the grapplers won, they train to win while grappling. I could not beleive my eyes, every single 'kenpo' and 'kickboxer' and 'karate' guy immediatly started playing the grappler's game, and got his butt handed to him.

So, maybe these "No Holds Barred" matches now have some holds barred, and some structure, and maybe the strikers are finally learning some grappling, but until they learn to make the other guy play the standup game, they will keep getting their butts kicked.

Frankly, even a mediocre boxing match is more exciting than the crap I saw on these videos. :rolleyes:

[Merryprankster]

Or maybe JasBourne, just maybe, all those kenpo and kickboxers and karate types didn't know how to counter being taken down by a skilled opponent, nor did they know what to do to get out once they were there. So to you, it looked like they wanted to grapple, when in reality, they had no choice.

I have 7-8 years of grappling experience. I promise you that I could takedown somebody that had little knowledge of grappling, with relative ease, and that I could dictate the range of the fight. The same thing happenned to those poor blokes.

Similarly, in a striking only match, I would get schooled by somebody with a 7-8 year background in striking.

[Xebsball]

Jas, rent some of the new Pride events, especialy the ones with Chute Boxe guys. You can see them counter grappling and striking pretty good.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[JasBourne]

Umm, the takedowns did not look particularly 'skilled', nor did the standup guys even try to counter or avoid or use any kind of anti-grappling.

Now mind you, I'm sure these videos are older ones. My point was that I did not see the standup guys even TRY to apply their own game. The grappler would go for their legs, they would stand there and take it, trying to control the grappler by grabbing the back of the guy's neck. Say what?? It was pathetic.

So, if strikers are learning how to counter groundfighters, great, maybe there will be decent fights at some point. I'm sure if I took the time and trouble to really delve into the whole "NHB" and "Ultimate Fighting" world, I will find that the fighters who are become proficient in many techniques are doing better than others who are not.

But from the outside looking in, it seems pretty obvious that it is not grappling itself that is the winning factor, it is the fact that the fight goes there so quickly for fighters who don't know anything about it and seem too stupid to avoid it.

[Grappling-Insanity]

Sounds like you rented a whole bunch of videos from 94'. Go get some new ones, perferably Pride ones there better than UFC IMO.

[shaolinboxer]

Yes, the nwer fights are much more intersting and the fighters are better.

The same is happening with K1, the fights keep getting better.

[Knifefighter]

Umm, the takedowns did not look particularly 'skilled', nor did the standup guys even try to counter or avoid or use any kind of anti-grappling.
================================================== ======
Jas:
A question for you. Have you ever had someone with a grappling background try to take you down for real? I'm not talking about someone in your own class with whom you practice defending takedowns, but someone who has actually done a decent amount of time in training how to take you down. If you haven't, you might be surprised at how hard it is to use "anti-grappling". If you have been able to defend the takedown against a grappler, I would be interested to hear the techniques you used.

It's hard enough to keep someone from taking you down in a grappling only environment. It becomes twice as hard when you add in elements of punching, kicking and knees into the equation. I have been grappling for many years and stopping the takedown is one of my strong points, but I still get taken down.

[Badger]

Jas- I agree with Knifefighter.If you really want to see how effective BJJ/MMA takedowns are you need to train against a real grappler.No insult to you or your training but it's easy to sit back & pick apart fighters from an easy chair.If you are interest ed, find a legit grappling school in your area.Take the intro class.If it works for you,you have something to complement your Wing Chun.We can all learn from each other.


Badger


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[LEGEND]

From the way Jas is talking I don't think he has much experience against wreslters. If so...please tell me your anti takedown counters...

A

[JasBourne]

I'll go along with you guys, it's easier to critizise than to do, and going against someone trained specifically for a takedown is different than going against a kwoon brother.

And I'll go along with those who said get newer tapes, the fighters have improved. I'll try to do that.

What I saw was pathetic, and I watched like 10 different videos. I watched guys who were doing kicking and striking against a bag or a partner before the match, moving quickly, striking hard. They KNOW the other guy is a grappler. They get in the ring and they SEE the other guy crouch forward, moving in for a takedown. Do they try to move out of range? No. Do they try to kick the guy in the face? No. Do they stand there like idiots and actually WAIT for the other guy to move in? Yes. Wham, all over.

So, I'll try to see more updated fight clips, see if we still have this tendency for strikers to just stand there like idiots and wait for the grapplers to set the game.

[Ralek]

Jasbourne. I have never seen a UFC tape where the striker just stands there and lets the grappler take him down. In all of the videos i have watched the striker didn't want to get taken down but had no choice.

What UFC's did you watch? What number? UFC#1? #2? Which ones?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Knifefighter]

Actually, Ralek is right. Not many strikers just stood there and let themselves be taken down. Many didn't have a choice because they were clueless on how to stop the shoot or clinch and takedown. They were the ones who were convinced thier arts would allow them to KO the grapplers before they were taken to the ground. Others did give the grapplers a hard time. Royce had a tough time taking down Hackney, Kimo, and Gordeau.

All the strikers today who are successful at "anti-grappling" are doing huge amounts of grappling training themselves.ê

[FeloniousMonk]

BJJ is a complete joke, like you! I will even grapple you if you want, I wont strike at all! I won't even use kungfu to kick you fu(king a$$, What do I have to do to fight you! I undestand your scared afterall I am ......... :D

The unbeatable Felonious Monk

[Ralek]

Yeah. I think Kimo was a striker. He actually did pretty good against Royce and managed to injure Royce's back.

I think you are getting defensive Jasbourne. Your kung fu and karate heros got KO'd by a fat blimp named Tank Abott. Don't worry about it. A wrestler named Dan Severn however was able to easilly take down Tank Abott and smach his head in with knees and elbows. How come the karate and kung fu guys counldn't do that?

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Badger]

Tank Abbott also beat the poop out of Hugo Duarte-a Luta Livre specialist which is basically no gi BJJ & Muay Thai striking.Never underestimate any opponent.

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¨

[Ralek]

Yeah, but Tank Abott can bench press over 600 pounds.

And Tank Abott was KO'd buy Pedro Rizzo who does muay thai and BJJ.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[Merryprankster]

Fair enough Jas...

Please don't think I was blasting you, I was just pointing out that the "standup" guys really didn't know how to avoid the takedown. It's simple and it's not, much like throwing a punch :)

And in the newer ones, you will see some cool stuff. Find the Sakuraba Renzo fight! GREAT TAPE. A good one kick ko in there too.

[Badger]

Wait a minute,I thought you said Tank Abbott was a Fat Slob!

Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

[Badger]

And Tank Abott was KO'd buy Pedro Rizzo who does muay thai and BJJ.-Ralek

So I guess sometimes you get the bear,sometimes the bear gets you.

Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

[Grahf1]

Bae He -

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Steffi Graf - "Why don't you tell all the Kung Fu guys that complain about the UFC rules how barbaric they are?"
Nobody bothers with the UFC anymore, because it's crap. MMA has outgrown the UFC.
Why fight for chump change?
Serious MMA's don't.

Are they to ***** to fight SanShou or Sabaki or K-1? Are they?

Maurice Smith had the balls to fight in these "NHB" tourney's.

Why can't some speedo head like Befort fight K-1?
It pays good. Why not?

THE RULES.

At least Frank Shamrock is giving it a go. What about the rest?[/quote]

Look, I don't know what you are talking about, you just avoided my question.

I asked why you don't criticize the people on this forum who complain about UFC rules. You seem to be bitter about Rickson using one of those "dirty" techniques that the people on this board think SHOULD be legal nowadays.

[Grahf1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Tank Abbott also beat the poop out of Hugo Duarte-a Luta Livre specialist which is basically no gi BJJ & Muay Thai striking.Never underestimate any opponent.[/quote]

Not true. Luta Livre is NOT no-gi BJJ. The techniques are not the same. Just ask Chris Brennan.

BJJ gi practicioners have a history of beating the sh*t out of Luta Livre guys in NO-GI submission competitions. There is a reason for that.

[omegapoint]

Here's the facts: b4 Helio, Royce Rickson and GJJ in America, there was sport styles like TKD and Kickboxing dominating isht. With the exception of Shooto and Pancrase, there was no real venue to test (some of) the efficacy of your style. In comes Royce and at just over 6ft. and 170 pounds, he begins to WAXXXXXX all the comp. Monsters like Shamrock the Elder and Kimo-therapy, who were and are juiced-out, superathletes didn't stand a chance. They trained in sport and Royce trained in a tried and true MA. After the unveiling of groundfighting the GJJ way, everyone started sounding like some broke Bruce Lee, and began crosstraining, especially in ground submission styles-- specifically BJJ/GJJ.

We did have some legitimate monster-assed grapplers like Remco Pardeu (sp?), who were world SUPERHEAVYWEIGHT JUDO CHUMPS, but that didn't matter. Judo had lost much of its Koryu effectiveness. Again, Royce beat this guy with a Gi choke, and Mr. Judo didn't have a clue as to what hit him! It's kinda' funny 'cause much of Judo's newaza in the old days was probably similar or the same as what Helio has been teaching and doing. Too bad the Japs, like Yanks prefer money and prestige over reality, otherwise Remco might have learned more newaza and submissions instead of a Jap throwing art diluted for Olympic glory!

Even Rickson is not all that big a guy. He might be 70" and 190 pounds. I've met both and I'm just a little bigger than Royce, and I'm not a big dude at all.

As for the money... Rorion does love the ducats, but what hard-working capitalist doesn't? He's trying to get recognition for his pops and their style before he's gone. Helio is hella cool (doesn't speak English though), and all GJJ guys I've met have been the nicest MAs you could ever encounter. Now if you come to their school to take up the '$100,000 Challenge', then you're stepping into a world of hurt. You never, ever, ever challenge a man in his own house, especially one(s) that have been fighting regularly since they were kids!

Ryron, Royce's nephew is a homey and part of the next generation of MMAs bad-asses. My cousin Glenn takes privates from him, and I can say that he's modest and well-versed in asskicking, ground techs. Renner will be next, so you loser's better quit talkin' your isht! You guys have never fought someone with a Gracie Guy's skill, so "SHHHHHHHHH", before you yell :SHHHHHHHIT, he's kicking my arse!!!"--Hahahaha!

The only thing I've ever had a prob with as far as Gracie-Torrance was concerned, was the way Caique was treated there. He never really received just compensation for the amount of work and teaching he did while there, but it all turned out for the better for Carlos.

Anyways, Royce would kick all your asses and your dad's too, period, so step-off with that dis shhit!