Wing Chun uses U.S. Special Forces?

[Tom Kagan]

After countless time spent researching, experimenting, and sacrificing chickens, I was finally able to rip the video segment from the DVD Ultimatewingchun gave me. Not only did his DVR put it in a non-standard DVD format, but the video file container, the video codec and the audio codec were all also non-standard.



Without further commentary, here is the relevant segment from the documentary all nice and clean and trim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEHo4l0ucmY

[YungChun]

Good job Tom... Thanks for the effort.. :)

[duende]

Looks like WC two-line defense to me.


Although some strands of WC teach that the maan sau should rest against the chest or be placed near it. The WC that I study and as well as some others teach that the maan sau be forward like this for structural strength and increased reaction time.

[Ernie]

Looks like WC two-line defense to me.


Although some strands of WC teach that the maan sau should rest against the chest or be placed near it. The WC that I study and as well as some others teach that the maan sau be forward like this for structural strength and increased reaction time.


People have been using and dual hand ''active fence '' in combat and punching with vertical fist since

Roman
(0-22 A.D.)[ time fron picture posted ]

nothing new or amazing way before WC was a swiming sper m cell in history's nut sack :cool:

[duende]

People have been using and dual hand ''active fence '' in combat and punching with vertical fist since

Roman
(0-22 A.D.)[ time fron picture posted ]

nothing new or amazing way before WC was a swiming sper m cell in history's nut sack :cool:

Sure enough.... I'm aware of your point. But imo the centerline focus here is quite substantial... ie. the placement of both hands strictly on the self-centerline, the hand positioning, as well as the consistent centerline A->B targeting of the opponent strategy found in these clips is enough to convince me it's WC practices in action.

I can definitely see what Victor is talking about.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Unfortunately the very first "wing chun chain punch" scene was very dark - especially the way it came out on the Youtube vid...but I rewatched it on vhs last night in slow motion - and there's no doubt that he was vertical fist, elbows in chain punching...as he was for a brief second or two on the second "wing chun" portion of the vid - but the first one (against 2 opponents) was even more obvious because more punches were thrown).

For those who still don't believe that - I recommend getting in touch with the Discovery Channel and see about getting a copy of the vid, which is entitled:

"SPECIAL OPERATIONS: AMERICA'S SECRET SOLDIERS."

Also keep in mind that Duane Dieter, who you saw on the vid and who's credited with coming up with the CQD (Close Quarter Defense) system for the SPECIAL OPS, has wing chun as part of his background.

So I really don't think he got all those "wing chun looking moves" from 2000 year old Greek Pankration...:rolleyes: :D

(He looks too young for that. :cool: )

P.S.- Great job, Tom...and thanks.

[Ernie]

So I really don't think he got all those "wing chun looking moves" from 2000 year old Greek Pankration...:rolleyes: :D

(He looks too young for that. :cool: )

P.S.- Great job, Tom...and thanks.

ha-ha Vic ,
I'm not even in the discussion [ when I trained with VU there were a few seal guys there and they were doing straight blast training ] so military guys and some core WC concepts are nothing new in my world .

I just think it's funny when people jump on the wing chun band wagon , and then toss in the ''well in my family we do it like this and the other guys are 2 degrees to the left of the big toe '' that $hit cracks me up , protractor kung fu rocks !

people have been sticking there hands in front of there face since the beginning of time , hell I guess marching band drummers are the kings of the fast center line concept hahaha :D :cool:

[duende]

Ernie,


My post was only meant to be considerate of the differences present in other WC family styles and not lump them all together in my post.

"protractor kung-fu" :eek: nice one.... :D

Didn't know the shortest distance between two points bothered you so much... :cool: :D

[Ernie]

Ernie,


My post was only meant to be considerate of the differences present in other WC family styles and not lump them all together in my post.

"protractor kung-fu" :eek: nice one.... :D

Didn't know the shortest distance between two points bothered you so much... :cool: :D

isn't ''on paper fu '' a wonderful thing !

add in the reality of emotional choas , broken rythem , elevation and angle change with fakes ,,,,, and that darn striaght line turns into a paranoid scribble :D ;) :cool:

seen many a wing chun robot trip over it's on feet and the CPU freeze up haha:eek:

[sihing]

Looks like Southern Mantis too ME, mixed in with a spice of Baqua, can't you all see it?

:D :D

[godzillakungfu]

I thought it was nijitsu with all the darkness and camo.

[Tom Kagan]

Why is this not Wing Chun?


Suppose for a moment, in the minds of the people in the clip, they really were doing Wing Chun.

It's irrelevant.

Yes, that's right: What they are thinking is irrelevant. However, what would be relevant is if the people in the clip used the same methodology of Wing Chun to learn the attributes expressed in the clip. But, a few people who are successful using "banzai!!!" punching and getting their hands up does not validate anything in different training methodology.

Birds fly by flapping their wings. Donning feathers and flapping your arms wildly will not get you off the ground regardless of the fact that's how birds do it.

People with no training in Wing Chun manage to provide proof the effectiveness of a Wing Chun methodology? Not likely, IMO. And, I believe this holds true even if the rumors of the trainer in the clip is, or was at one point, a practitioner of a particular Wing Chun variant.


Systems are defined by the methodology used to develop the attributes necessary to express the skill. Just because something from the clip appears to have a familiar signature does not make it the same or even similar. Notwithstanding the clip giving us a chance encounter of such a signature (and any clues it may or may not give you as to whether you are on the right path), if you are using an entirely different methodology to get there, it is not a valid comparison. Such comparisons are, in fact, irrelevant.


To get back to the picture I posted in the other thread, there is hardly an accomplished practitioner of the Wing Chun style who would look it not say: "Ooh, TanDar and LinSiu DaiDar". But the point is Felix Trinidad does not train Wing Chun; he trains boxing. He is not practicing SiuNimTao, ChumKiu, BilGee. He is not hitting a wooden dummy. He is not pairing up and playing ChiSao, ChernKiuSao, ChiGerk, or any other Wing Chun drill. So, unless you train like Felix Trinidad, there is no evidence to suggest the results of his methods (like what you see in the picture I've relinked here) are proof that your methods will produce the same results.

http://www.templewingchun.com/TanSao%20Choi.jpg


FWIW: I went to the same portion of the clip Victor is speaking of and ran it through every video filter I have to enhance the picture. There is just not enough resolution in my copy of the recording for me to make a 100% determination as to the fist orientation. However, I agree, given the upper body positioning, it is more likely than not vertical.

[duende]

isn't ''on paper fu '' a wonderful thing !

add in the reality of emotional choas , broken rythem , elevation and angle change with fakes ,,,,, and that darn striaght line turns into a paranoid scribble :D ;) :cool:

seen many a wing chun robot trip over it's on feet and the CPU freeze up haha:eek:

Yeah... the robots can't flow up here either! ;)

[Ernie]

Yeah... the robots can't flow up here either! ;)


funny thing is if there heads were never filled with all kinds of concepts and drills and '' the do it like this '' sifu says stuff

they would probably flow better hahaha

hey man if i make it out to frisco we got to hang :D

[duende]

funny thing is if there heads were never filled with all kinds of concepts and drills and '' the do it like this '' sifu says stuff

they would probably flow better hahaha

hey man if i make it out to frisco we got to hang :D

For me, the trick is finding that balance between understanding of concepts and the aliveness of pure saan sau. :) I question everything.... that's just my nature.

Anyways, definitely... if you make it out here, it would be cool to hook-up. That is if this **** global warming doesn't kill us first!

later!

[YungChun]

Okay so we know the instructor has some WCK background and what a surprise the drills there <in the dark> appear to be WCK based.. No biggie, we had two or three or more SF guys in the old school and clearly they felt the system has merit..

If folks can't see those scenes that are dark try turning up the gamma or brightness on your monitor or using your video card settings..

The truth is that very often a continuous centerline attack, whatever that may be tool-wise.. can be a very effective attack. This is in part because of the tendency for the centerline attacks to clear the line as they attack, disrupt balance and use advanced positioning with respect to the opponent.

Most suddenly violent encounters involve sudden and close range attacks; folks who will attack you on the street will normally NOT start dancing around and popping off snappy jabs.. What street threats can, and often will do, is something called woofing.

This is where a threat(s) will attempt to intimidate his prey you and make you so afraid through verbal threats and body language, that you freeze up and go "bunny" on him-- you become his prey-- and he makes his preparation... At some point he will step a little closer to you as he "woofs" and then with no warning will suddenly attack you.

Most of the time the distance will be close, not far away, and he won't stop until you are on the ground and he's kicking you in the head.. Intercepting the intent is what most street combat is about and WCK can do this well if used well.

The key with these simple attacks is that they are direct, unexpected, continuous, disruptive, and economical.

And that is the essence of WCK...

[Asia]

Well the video did NOT clear things up like Victor thought it would.

This is why:

Everything that was shown is pretty much the same thing that I been trained to do and instruct. The so called WC stance that Victor said was used to subudue the person on the ground is part of what we call EPW drill. The stand and hand postition is used because the person is expecting to enter into an immediate grappling situationn. If the person is standing he will take them to the ground quickly if he becomes aggressive, if he is on the ground he can pounce on him. We are having a throwdown tommorrow and I will video the drills I am talking about and show what I mean.

The basket part was to dark but its similar to another drill. We don't have the funds to get the Gucci toys, SF gets the cash and the better toys. We use focus pads and Thai pads in the intial stages. In later ones you face a live opponent with MMA gloves, Headgear, and mouthpeice.


Just for a general FYI the rest the video is pretty much general Infantry tactics that all soldiers now have to get a working knowledge of, except the Rangers and SF get to play with live ammo more than we do. There has been some great leaps in MOUT (Military Operations on Urban Terrain) and CQM (Close Quarters Marksmanship)

[AmanuJRY]

Unfortunately the very first "wing chun chain punch" scene was very dark - especially the way it came out on the Youtube vid...but I rewatched it on vhs last night in slow motion - and there's no doubt that he was vertical fist, elbows in chain punching...as he was for a brief second or two on the second "wing chun" portion of the vid - but the first one (against 2 opponents) was even more obvious because more punches were thrown).

For those who still don't believe that - I recommend getting in touch with the Discovery Channel and see about getting a copy of the vid, which is entitled:

"SPECIAL OPERATIONS: AMERICA'S SECRET SOLDIERS."

Also keep in mind that Duane Dieter, who you saw on the vid and who's credited with coming up with the CQD (Close Quarter Defense) system for the SPECIAL OPS, has wing chun as part of his background.

So I really don't think he got all those "wing chun looking moves" from 2000 year old Greek Pankration...:rolleyes: :D

(He looks too young for that. :cool: )

P.S.- Great job, Tom...and thanks.

He looks too young to have studied a 200 year old martial art as well.:rolleyes:

If pankration is that much older than WC, then maybe WC came from it.:eek:

Anyway, if only part (and a small part at that) of CQD program looks like WC or even came from WC, does that mean they 'Use Wing Chun'???

...C'mon guys make that square peg fit the round hole.:p

[YungChun]

Wing Chun uses U.S. Special Forces?


LOL... Just caught that... I assume it was intended.. ;)



Systems are defined by the methodology used to develop the attributes necessary to express the skill. Just because something from the clip appears to have a familiar signature does not make it the same or even similar.

Interesting post Tom..

Of course following the same logic, just because someone thinks they train WCK and does train Chi Sao, the Jong, etc, it doesn't mean their WCK is really WCK at all, or nearly the same WCK that anyone else trains since the underlying methodologies to the training may be quite different.

[crimsonghost]

Quote from marine force recon trainer:

"We utilize an art called marine kung fu, consisting of some Kempo, akido, aiki ju-jitsu, and WC. We did practice SD when we not out on missions twice a week 4-6 hours, other times we were cleaning weapons, practicing our patrols, getting in our jump time, training in our specialties."

These guys train many styles, and don't always train chi sau and such. forms and sensitivity drills are not what they are after in training. the quick kill or subdue is the goal of their training. period.
As for what I did see, I saw the elbows down and covering vitals with hands open directly in front of the centerline. They do something similar as a defensive stance in knife fighting too. I saw advanced stance as the soldier approached the man on the ground. But they also use a similar stance when advancing with weapons.
As for the "ground" work, or position. sure, you could see a grappling starting position. But what I saw was what we do to prepare for serious striking. He pinned the man with elbow and forearms on the neck, he didn't grab or wrestle him. Quick kill gentlemen.
the quick kill is NOT submission.
But as Tom stated. what we see and speculate is largly irrevelant. LOL.
but it sure is fun to discuss!
and thank you Tom for posting the clip!
:D

[Knifefighter]

the quick kill is NOT submission.
It's more likely to come from a "submission" than it is from strikes.

As far as quick kill in the military, that's what their firearms and edged weapons are for.

[crimsonghost]

It's more likely to come from a "submission" than it is from strikes.

As far as quick kill in the military, that's what their firearms and edged weapons are for.

Not always, weren't you listening to the video? why do you think the soldier chain punched his attacker in the dark and then drew a gun? You have to get to the gun first. and urban fighting is totally different than open warfare.

At very close quarters, it is easier to get disarmed while coming around a doorway or corner. "submission" wastes too much time on only one attacker. especially when your in an unknown building or city street/alley, and you are surrounded by possible ambush from right at your elbow. Too many unseen variables to be taking all day on one attacker. you need to be able to disable the problem and move immediately on to the next one. What I saw them doing alot was binding the hands and moving on to clear the area.

We know a guy that just got out of the army and iraq and he's got three pins in his knee and hip from using BJJ and submission on an attacker in battle. He dicided that he'd use BJJ on an attacker who surprised him on a stairway and they rolled all the way down the stairs, thus, the american soldier had his knee and hip broken in the fall. Not very efficient, if you ask me. He is currently working on changing up his style and teaching a completely different form of BJJ because of the encounter. Adding much more striking. You can ask him how he feels about "submission" these days.
He's seen some of our anti-grappling and is very interested in studing with us. Which much of this ground fighting, has been taken from experience in SF, combat in jungle, desert, and urban situations.
Think what you want, I'm not into submission. Don't have time for it, don't want to endanger myself further by messing with it. Each to their own. ;)

[Asia]

There was no chain punching or other WC in the video despite what pple want to see.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again I'm going to invite people to get in touch with the DISCOVERY channel and see if you can get a copy of the doc for yourself...

Everytime I rewatch the two-against-one scene - or show it to people - it is CRYSTAL clear that the guy is vertical fist chain punching.

And if you play it in slow motion....it's impossible to debate it...regardless of how thick-headed, stubborn, Libran always-present-the-opposing-point-of-view, or anti-wing chun you are. :eek: :cool: :rolleyes: :D ;) :)


But don't take my word for it - get a copy for yourself and see first hand (instead of second hand).

[Fajing]

I'm not trying to take sides here BUT, I do believe ASIA speaks the truth. As I know I've mentioned before, my eldest brother was an airborne ranger and later went through special forces training (around 1999-2000 I believe). He was also sent over (toward the end of 2002 I believe) after 911. We discuss martial arts and the training he recieved from the military over the years. The only regimes he's mentioned are something called L.I.N.E. training and BJJ. However, as mentioned several times before, they do most of their stuff with weapons. I don't know if this actually adds anything to this discussion, but oh well. As for the other branches of the military, I have no idea. PEACE!:)

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not going to debate this any longer with anyone...People see what they want to see...and preset agendas seem to be the order of the day around here.

But I know what I saw - and that's all that matters to me. I don't need someone else to tell me that A is really B.

Enough time and energy spent on wing chun/special forces threads.

My work is done here.:)

[Asia]

I'm not going to debate this any longer with anyone...People see what they want to see...and preset agendas seem to be the order of the day around here.

But I know what I saw - and that's all that matters to me. I don't need someone else to tell me that A is really B.

Enough time and energy spent on wing chun/special forces threads.

My work is done here.:)


'm not trying to take sides here BUT, I do believe ASIA speaks the truth.
My work here speaks for itself.:D

[YungChun]

Taking control in close quarters--stunning the opponent through rapid impacts is the most economical use of the micro seconds that one has to assess and adapt.. IN CQC the idea is never to submit.. You might want to break something but if that takes longer than bashing someone in the face a few times then it is a low percentile move in a multi threat situation, you can steal balance to smash them<milliseconds> or you can steal balance to grapple <many seconds> where there are firearms, edged weapons involved—and you grapple can the guy still hit you—even lightly? If we blow them down in half second as in the video then they can’t—if they can hit you as you attempt to grapple then that “hit” may end up being a blade..every millisecond of action or inaction or bad position can mean your guts are spilling onto the ground.. Also the latest research teaches LEOs and other shooters that they must make lots of space in order to deploy the firearm and have time to fire accurately—in close range guns loose to edged weapons the vast majority of the time.

It takes micro seconds to bash the guys head in at CQC range—if you have the line you can do this kind of damage in this short time—again as in the clip, it will take many, many times longer than that in milliseconds to grapple and subit—submit in multithreat combat??? Good grief..

In sudden attacks where folks can die many times over in a few seconds folks are not dancing around throwing jabs and low round kicks, and/or rolling around on the ground if they want to live—like a wild animal you either take the threat out right then and there or you probably die.. As in the clip, they are trying to take the opponent out immediately, in the same time frame as WCK—this could mean any kind of sudden and nasty series of attacks but the, <finish> must happen instantly, and again this is why it is the focus in many arts like WCK..

This is the same reason why in 99% of TMA that were used on the battle field of old wanted to remain standing and not clinched or rolling around on the ground locked up--because you would get run through by a spear or other weapon if you dedicated yourself to too much in time and position with one opponent as in a sport fight--you need to move on right away and change to adapt. “Rolling” or submitting is completely impractical for the battle field of old or of today when you have a multiple threat, possible armed situation—you either take them out, or you may die, that simple, and also true of many other kinds of assaults that typically happen on the street where the opponent will NOT be playing by any rules and using trickery and deceit to land his attack.. That is the study, most tactical aspects of real combat or combative tactics represent an entirely different model vs sport fighting... ask any Tactical trainer, prison guard or LEO..

[Asia]

Taking control in close quarters--stunning the opponent through rapid impacts is the most economical use of the micro seconds that one has to assess and adapt.. IN CQC the idea is never to submit.. You might want to break something but if that takes longer than bashing someone in the face a few times then it is a low percentile move in a multi threat situation, you can steal balance to smash them<milliseconds> or you can steal balance to grapple <many seconds> where there are firearms, edged weapons involved—and you grapple can the guy still hit you—even lightly? If we blow them down in half second as in the video then they can’t—if they can hit you as you attempt to grapple then that “hit” may end up being a blade..every millisecond of action or inaction or bad position can mean your guts are spilling onto the ground.. Also the latest research teaches LEOs and other shooters that they must make lots of space in order to deploy the firearm and have time to fire accurately—in close range guns loose to edged weapons the vast majority of the time.
This isn't aways true. It depends on the objectives of the mission.
I also think you have the wrong idea between submission and breaking. You allow a training partner you can break a person pretty quickly.


This is the same reason why in 99% of TMA that were used on the battle field of old wanted to remain standing and not clinched or rolling around on the ground locked up--because you would get run through by a spear or other weapon if you dedicated yourself to too much in time and position with one opponent as in a sport fight--you need to move on right away and change to adapt. “Rolling” or submitting is completely impractical for the battle field of old or of today when you have a multiple threat, possible armed situation—you either take them out, or you may die, that simple, and also true of many other kinds of assaults that typically happen on the street where the opponent will NOT be playing by any rules and using trickery and deceit to land his attack.. That is the study, most tactical aspects of real combat or combative tactics represent an entirely different model vs sport fighting... ask any Tactical trainer, prison guard or LEO..

99% of old TMA arts that had lot of CLINCH work in it. Why? Because its clumbersome fighing in armor. You see the same things in both Asian and European armored fighting. You had "kampfringen" (lit Combat/war wrestling) and Jujutsu schools that focused alot on such situations because they happened alot. Some of the main themes of armored battlefeild fighting is to close in take the gound and think peirce them at a vital spot. Ground techniques are used to make syoure you could defend yourself form the last part becuase whether you remain on your feet or not is not alway up to you.

You guys really don't understand the concept of "rolling." Grappling was a premier art in battlefeilds of old, Roman and Greek armys were versed in Wrestling and Pankration a mix of boxing and wrestling, Indian warriors featured grappling in their arts. Grappling is THE oldes war art.

One of the things I think was also missed in the film is that there was that its focus is TEAMWORK. Based on mission objectives you taylor your skills to achieve it. If the idea was to simply kill everyone then there wouldn't be a need to CQC. Just toss in a couple of frags and saturate the rool with rounds. But that isn't always the case.

[Ultimatewingchun]

YungChun:

Since you're one of the few people posting on these SP/WC threads who really wants to talk seriously about what works high percentage enough that even the SP would train it's soldiers in it (ie.- various aspects of CQD)...

So here goes: A quick and brutal RNC (rear naked choke)...a figure 4 front facelock/neck crank with a sprawl attached to it...or a figure 4 front choke...perhaps even a suplex if you quickly catch someone's back (but didn't get their throat)...

These kinds of moves can easily and quickly knock your man unconscious, crack a neck, or possibly kill him if done right...

So while I agree that most unarmed combat when the highest stakes are on the line should consist of multiple punch attacks to the head and face, kicks to the groin, etc...

don't underestimate some aspects of grappling to help do the job as well.

[Edmund]

After all the crap that people have been talking I expected the video would only look vaguely like WC.

But the guys were doing WC like little WC robots. The chain punches, the hand guarding positions, the stances and steps. The video shows those guys using WC. You're blind if you can't recognize it.

Holy pooper scooper, Victor was dead right!

[YungChun]

In general I agree Victor, I am all for cross training in multiple disciplines and using WCK as the core/common thread that joins all as one..

I see the methods used in the video and similar methods as highly economical in situations where tenths of a second count.. I see all out ground grappling in multiple threat situations as less desirable, not to say you can't or may not need to use some locks, throws, but ground grappling is a last resort IMO and combative instructors I have spoken with agree and also advocate training shooters to make lots of space if they need and intend to use—draw and aim—their firearm. Most folks when a threat presents itself will not have their weapon drawn and ready to fire..

Most of the Chinese arts use weapons and to my knowledge did not emphasize the use of armor as was seen in Europe way back when. In other countries they also used weapons and when invading armies came marching into battle I seriously doubt they did so using ground grappling—which IMO is more seen in sport, or duel type fights, both then and now..

Most TMA don't focus on ground work, not to say it isn't needed, it is, but in certain tactical situations explosive and instant "kills" that take the opponent “of the moment” out of the game in order to move onto the next threat is critical, and again combative instructors I have talked to have emphasized not spending too much time on one person in these cases, even if you have to “finish them” later, the need to “move on” is key. These kinds of economical moves also help the "defender" to transition to the next threat quickly and efficiently...

[Asia]

After all the crap that people have been talking I expected the video would only look vaguely like WC.

But the guys were doing WC like little WC robots. The chain punches, the hand guarding positions, the stances and steps. The video shows those guys using WC. You're blind if you can't recognize it.

Holy pooper scooper, Victor was dead right!
Not really. Look at the stance and the way the move its closer to a wrestler/grappler than to WC.

Wing Chun posture (http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/poc.gif)
Wing Chun posture (http://www.turningpointonline.info/SequenceB.JPG)
Wing Chun posture (http://www.ukwingchun.com/assets/photos/Wing_Chun__Mantis.gif)
compared to
Wrestling posture (http://ascgrizzlies.athleticsite.com/images/wr-Cleve-action-stance-Wyo0405.jpg)
Wrestling posture (http://www.nadir-novelties.net/janefisher/other/wrestling/imgas/stance.jpg)
I'm not saying their wrestlling but in the context of the task at hand that posture is more suited than what is seen in WC. I explained already why the posture is used so I must be blind because I don't see WC I see Military ops.



Most of the Chinese arts use weapons and to my knowledge did not emphasize the use of armor as was seen in Europe way back when. In other countries they also used weapons and when invading armies came marching into battle I seriously doubt they did so using ground grappling—which IMO is more seen in sport, or duel type fights, both then and now..

Actually on the battlefeild they did. Armor grappling is a common theme in Chinese battlefeild MA. Tongbei Quan and Piquaquan are two examples of this. You didn't go out to battle without armor.

Notice I said:

99% of old TMA arts that had lot of CLINCH work in it.
Clinching is grappling and it happened alot. Schools trained this so when they were in close quarters with an enemy and again the goal was to take them down and stab them.


Most TMA don't focus on ground work
Here you have to make the distinction between battlefeild arts and civilian arts as well as time period. Why because the oldest forms of MA in almost any country or society have been grappling arts and ground work was included.


it is, but in certain tactical situations explosive and instant "kills" that take the opponent “of the moment” out of the game in order to move onto the next threat is

You mean like taking a guy down where he is most vulnerable and killing him? Because thats how wars were traditionally fought. Now if we need an instant "kill" we squeeze a trigger, pull pin and throw, etc. The role of Combatives in modern warfare is for sudbuing and not just killing.


of the moment” out of the game in order to move onto the next threat is critical, and again combative instructors I have talked to have emphasized not spending too much time on one person in these cases, even if you have to “finish them” later, the need to “move on” is key.
I agree only if the goal is to escape. If you are trying to fight it out or in a situation where you can't escape this method could get you into trouble because if you just delay the threat its just going to come back and its generally not when you are ready for it again.

Besides I think a critical point is being overlooked in this. One of the things this type of training instills in soldiers is e'spirt de corp. Its what binds the unit together and have them work as a TEAM. Your buddy is watching your back. If you are in a situation when you are facing multiples alone, wether military or civilain, something is horribly wrong. I wouldn't go out to a place where there is a possiblity of violence (clubs, bars, streets at night, etc) alone just like I wouldn't try to clear a building alone. Its extremely hard to face multiple opponents. The chances of coming out in good standing is slim and anyone preaching otherwise is delusional.

[Tom Kagan]

If anyone is interested, I managed to squash the full documentary - nearly 3 gigabytes - down to less than 100 megabytes. I chopped out every other frame and and used extreme mpeg4 settings to compress it to within an inch of its life. It's not exactly pretty, but it is still watchable:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=4A17F8D153F7181D

The above link link will be valid for the next seven days and only allows 100 downloads, so get it while it's hot.


You may need the xVid video decoder to view the file. If you need it, you can download xVid binaries from here (http://www.koepi.org/xvid.shtml)

[Fajing]

I wouldn't go out to a place where there is a possiblity of violence (clubs, bars, streets at night, etc) alone just like I wouldn't try to clear a building alone. Its extremely hard to face multiple opponents. The chances of coming out in good standing is slim and anyone preaching otherwise is delusional.

Ah ha, I definitely agree with this. I have known too many martial artists of various styles that think they can deal with anything :rolleyes: including multiple assailants and/or attackers weilding knives. Gimme a break! :p Anywho, debate on folks. ;)

[Edmund]

Not really. Look at the stance and the way the move its closer to a wrestler/grappler than to WC.

Wing Chun posture (http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/poc.gif)
Wing Chun posture (http://www.turningpointonline.info/SequenceB.JPG)
Wing Chun posture (http://www.ukwingchun.com/assets/photos/Wing_Chun__Mantis.gif)
compared to
Wrestling posture (http://ascgrizzlies.athleticsite.com/images/wr-Cleve-action-stance-Wyo0405.jpg)
Wrestling posture (http://www.nadir-novelties.net/janefisher/other/wrestling/imgas/stance.jpg)
I'm not saying their wrestlling but in the context of the task at hand that posture is more suited than what is seen in WC. I explained already why the posture is used so I must be blind because I don't see WC I see Military ops.



Sorry Asia, but in terms of WC, you don't know what to look for. Plus you had your mind very much made up PRIOR to even seeing the thing.

You can come up with your own explanations, but a WC person can recognize the fundamental elements in the clip.

[Asia]

Sorry Asia, but in terms of WC, you don't know what to look for. Plus you had your mind very much made up PRIOR to even seeing the thing.

You can come up with your own explanations, but a WC person can recognize the fundamental elements in the clip.

Its not my own interpretation its what is taught in combatives. As far as knowing what to look for, Tom Kagan is my WC sisuk, I am not completely ignorant of WC, but many here are of Military combatives. ;)

[Knifefighter]

Asia-
Great and insightful posts.

I can't believe you guys are trying to debate this with a guy who is a military combatives instructor.

How many of you debating him have even BEEN in the military?


.

[Edmund]

Its not my own interpretation its what is taught in combatives. As far as knowing what to look for, Tom Kagan is my WC sisuk, I am not completely ignorant of WC, but many here are of Military combatives.

Probably but this has little to do with being in the military really.

The clip shows just what Victor said it did - key WC elements. Period.

You can dispute how accurate the documentary was in terms of military training but that's another issue.

No offence to Tom Kagan, but I don't know who he is. And he's only your sisuk, which is a pretty tenuous relationship anyway. That doesn't really imply that you know what to look for in terms of WC.

[Asia]

Probably but this has little to do with being in the military really.

The clip shows just what Victor said it did - key WC elements. Period.
Thats debateable considering that thier posture wasn't akin to WC and as far as the detainee drill there is no context to for it in WC. So other than the hand position, which is not unique, and the punching, again not unique, there isn little to show WC.


You can dispute how accurate the documentary was in terms of military training but that's another issue.
I already posted how accurate it was.


No offence to Tom Kagan, but I don't know who he is. And he's only your sisuk, which is a pretty tenuous relationship anyway. That doesn't really imply that you know what to look for in terms of WC.
Being sisuk that means he knows my teacher and I posted my experience on the other thread.

[Tom Kagan]

The clip shows just what Victor said it did - key WC elements. Period.

If that is the case, then any two random animals fighting show some "key WC elements" as you put it.


Exclamation point.

[Edmund]

Thats debateable considering that thier posture wasn't akin to WC and as far as the detainee drill there is no context to for it in WC. So other than the hand position, which is not unique, and the punching, again not unique, there isn little to show WC.


Sorry but I think others with a fair bit of WC experience do see some.

[Edmund]

If that is the case, then any two random animals fighting show some "key WC elements" as you put it.


I saw your arguments earlier in the thread, Tom. They pretty much implied that you saw what Victor was referring to.

[Tom Kagan]

I saw your arguments earlier in the thread, Tom. They pretty much implied that you saw what Victor was referring to.


Anti-process at work. People will read what they want to read.


I will myself clearer: I agree with Asia. While some may see a familiar signature, it doesn't make it the same.


(Does that make this SiSuk an Uncle Tom? :) )


Hey look everyone! John Sullivan did WC (yeah right. Or perhaps we do western boxing, instead? :rolleyes: )

compare

http://www.aussiebox.com.au/ace/jls.jpg

[Edmund]

Anti-process at work. People will read what they want to read.


I will myself clearer: I agree with Asia. While some may see a familiar signature, it doesn't make it the same.



If you don't see anything, fine.

I see very obvious similarities.

[Tom Kagan]

If you don't see anything, fine.

I see very obvious similarities.

When I was 15 years old, I looked exactly like the kid on the right in this picture:

http://www.afan.dk/firefly/ffpic/ab_body_01.jpg

It didn't mean I was a movie star.

It didn't make my father an adulterer.

It didn't turn me into a Canadian.

[Knifefighter]

Asia-
You must be a popular guy.
Clean out your inbox.:)

[YungChun]

Actually on the battlefeild they did. Armor grappling is a common theme in Chinese battlefeild MA. Tongbei Quan and Piquaquan are two examples of this. You didn't go out to battle without armor.

Notice I said:

Clinching is grappling and it happened alot. Schools trained this so when they were in close quarters with an enemy and again the goal was to take them down and stab them.

Love to see some documentation on this. It is taught in most history classes I took that the European countries were far more interested in bulky armor than in the east and although Japan did use primitive wooden armor I have yet to hear of the Chinese using it much and the fluid styles and ability to move and use all of the traditional Chinese weapons simply would not be possible while wearing bulky armor—they relied on movement, agility and technique over lumbering bulk.

Based on what I have read and heard most folks using for example WCK would be body guards or hired to guard valuables when being transported etc, I tend to doubt that any armor was used.. And of course they had their knives to use first and foremost..


Here you have to make the distinction between battlefield arts and civilian arts as well as time period. Why because the oldest forms of MA in almost any country or society have been grappling arts and ground work was included.

And we have the vast majority of traditional combative arts that do hardly any, let alone focus on, ground work. You say ground work was so common, then the focus and content of most arts completely contradicts this position. The reason we see this modern focus on ground work is because the most realistic use of the arts we see in popular culture is in the sport/duel areana.. The sport/duel has it's own set of attributes and skills and while there is overlap street combative work has it's own set that because of this "new focus" on grappling and ground-work is being overlooked by many.


You mean like taking a guy down where he is most vulnerable and killing him? Because thats how wars were traditionally fought. Now if we need an instant "kill" we squeeze a trigger, pull pin and throw, etc. The role of Combative in modern warfare is for sudbuing and not just killing.

So the legions with swords/spears in hand were all wrestling aye? Sounds like a wrestling convention—how do you defend yourself against a standing man with a sword/spear when you are on the ground wrestling with someone else? You don't, you stick em' and move on until you either get killed or everyone else does..

Again, I have spoken to many folks on this, one of them is in charge of Marine combative training at Quantico and they have never suggested that "wrestling" when facing multiples is a souind idea--and these types DO train to deal with mutiples because it is a fact of life..

Please provide some documentation...

Most warfare where weapons were used according to all the sources I have seen primarily involve slashing and stabbing while standing.. The way your spinning this it makes it sound like all the wars in history were fought like wrestling matches..

You get two <or more> punks on the train who want your coat and you advocate taking one of them down? That's great--but personally I think it's nuts.. To each his own..


I agree only if the goal is to escape. If you are trying to fight it out or in a situation where you can't escape this method could get you into trouble because if you just delay the threat its just going to come back and its generally not when you are ready for it again.

The faster the better, and impacting type attacks are simply more economical..

I had an encounter with three punks on the way home one night from traiing way back when.. The first guy grabbed me from behind and within about a tenth of a second he had been taken out and launched into a fence, at which time I turned to the other two.. They wanted nothing to do with me and it was all over that quick.. Ground Grappling by choice, in this situation? Again--no thanks!


Besides I think a critical point is being overlooked in this. One of the things this type of training instills in soldiers is e'spirt de corp. Its what binds the unit together and have them work as a TEAM. Your buddy is watching your back. If you are in a situation when you are facing multiples alone, whether military or civilian, something is horribly wrong. I wouldn't go out to a place where there is a possibility of violence (clubs, bars, streets at night, etc) alone just like I wouldn't try to clear a building alone. Its extremely hard to face multiple opponents. The chances of coming out in good standing is slim and anyone preaching otherwise is delusional.
Absolutely false IMO and also IMO misleading because most attacks that happen in the big city WILL involve more than one punk who is planning on doing harm to you.. On the contrary thinking that violence in the street iis going to resemble a one on one duel and the associated accoutrements is delusional.. In many situations this folks who are assaulted will have to deal with more than one threat and that is just the sad reality of the street--can't handle it--oh well then your dead..

Smart teachers train their folks how to deal with multiples and there are many tactics that are useful and ways to employ position and technique to assist and again IMO and in the opinions of most professionals economy is key in all combative situations and that translates most of the time to relying on fast impacting type attacks and finishing moves that can be completed in a few seconds or less.. Not enough time? Oh well--too bad--you die..

[Asia]

Love to see some documentation on this. It is taught in most history classes I took that the European countries were far more interested in bulky armor than in the east and although Japan did use primitive wooden armor I have yet to hear of the Chinese using it much and the fluid styles and ability to move and use all of the traditional Chinese weapons simply would not be possible while wearing bulky armor—they relied on movement, agility and technique over lumbering bulk.

Not all European armor were bulking suits of armor either. If you didn't know the Chinese wore armor in battle then you need to do more research.
Examples of Chinese Armour (http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=5197), more examples. (http://www3.uakron.edu/worldciv/china/ch-armor.html) Why would the chinese develop armor, just like pretty much ever other warring culture, and not use it alot in war?:confused: If you can get a set and see if you move the same way you think many socalled TMA do now. You find that you will not move as fluidly as you think. Thats why the arts I mentioned before relied on big arm movements which were easier to do in battle dress.


And we have the vast majority of traditional combative arts that do hardly any, let alone focus on, ground work. You say ground work was so common, then the focus and content of most arts completely contradicts this position. The reason we see this modern focus on ground work is because the most realistic use of the arts we see in popular culture is in the sport/duel areana.. The sport/duel has it's own set of attributes and skills and while there is overlap street combative work has it's own set that because of this "new focus" on grappling and ground-work is being overlooked by many.
There is a "new focus" on grappling becuase like many other arts of combat they were forgotten for more "exotic" things. Grappling and groundwork was still very popular at the begining of the 20th century as well. It was pushed back for more flasher arts and then came back again when pple started looking at the effectiveness of an art again.


So the legions with swords/spears in hand were all wrestling aye? Sounds like a wrestling convention—how do you defend yourself against a standing man with a sword/spear when you are on the ground wrestling with someone else? You don't, you stick em' and move on until you either get killed or everyone else does..

You really need to do some more reasearch. You are missing a whole lot of the points I've made. Grappling and warfare are old hat.
http://www.thearma.org/ Is a great place with ALOT of information on European warcraft.
Read Classical Fighting Arts of Japan by Serge Mol. He does a great job of chronicalling many forms of jj and you will see the same themes I said here.
Jiao Li, which Shuai jiao evolved form, is considered one of the oldest forms of CMA and it was trained by soldiers. It focus was throw pple do the ground and invloved joint locks as well.

Jiao li was a grappling martial art that was developed in the Zhou Dynasty (between tenth and third century BCE). It is generally considered to be the oldest extant Chinese martial art and is among the oldest systematic martial arts in the world. As a military fighting system, Jiao li supplemented throwing techniques with strikes, joint locks and attacks on pressure points.These were practiced in the winter by soldiers who also studied archery and military strategy.


Again, I have spoken to many folks on this, one of them is in charge of Marine combative training at Quantico and they have never suggested that "wrestling" when facing multiples is a souind idea--and these types DO train to deal with mutiples because it is a fact of life..

Let me try this again, I DO that same thing so I am not working off second hand information here. Reread my last post. WE (ALL military) DO NOT WORK ALONE WE WORK IN GROUPS. Now go back and ask then do they train to take on multiples by themselves and they will tell you NO. Same thing will older warfare, you worked in groups. Even in the clip when the guy goes in to subdue the person he has someone watching his back.


Most warfare where weapons were used according to all the sources I have seen primarily involve slashing and stabbing while standing.. The way your spinning this it makes it sound like all the wars in history were fought like wrestling matches..

That is not what I said at all. Again READ and RESEARCH. You said you do but things like this show glaring flaws in you "studies". What I have been sayin is that during war the often got into a CLINCH and when that happened they used methods to ground their opponent and stab them. That is why grappling arts were emphasized along with weapon arts for the battlefeild.

Greek warfare (http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/0431145407.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V1057190729_.jpg)
Kumiuchi (http://home.att.net/~hofhine/Kumiuchi.jpg)(literally means ARMOUR STRIKE/HIT. The Takenouchi Ryu is the oldest school of jujutsu taught today and embodies exactly what I am saying. Kito Ryu is another school that judo got many throws form and they were designed to ground opponents on the battlefiled.
Renaissance Fencing (http://www.thearma.org/essays/qgrnd.jpg) even taught the same methods of grounding an opponent for the kill.
Fencing grappling (http://www.thearma.org/images/LOVINO.JPG)


You get two <or more> punks on the train who want your coat and you advocate taking one of them down? That's great--but personally I think it's nuts.. To each his own..
You seem not to comprehend what I actually post. 1) If two guys really want your coat they are likely got get it. 2) Whether you stay on your feet or not is not always up to you. If you are facing multiples you are more likely to get into a grappling situation than just to stand back and duking it out.


Absolutely false IMO
You opinion is absolutely WRONG. What is your military experience that refutes what I said.

Besides I think a critical point is being overlooked in this. One of the things this type of training instills in soldiers is e'spirt de corp. Its what binds the unit together and have them work as a TEAM. Your buddy is watching your back.
Tell me what is false about this and why.


and also IMO misleading because most attacks that happen in the big city WILL involve more than one punk who is planning on doing harm to you..
Lets see I said,

If you are in a situation when you are facing multiples alone, whether military or civilian, something is horribly wrong. I wouldn't go out to a place where there is a possibility of violence (clubs, bars, streets at night, etc) alone just like I wouldn't try to clear a building alone. Its extremely hard to face multiple opponents. The chances of coming out in good standing is slim and anyone preaching otherwise is delusional.

So basicly my point was don't go into places where you are likely to get into violence alone. If you have to then you're going to need a equalizer, a good for of a PPD (Personal Protection Device). If that hard to understand then you need to reevaluate what you've been told.


On the contrary thinking that violence in the street iis going to resemble a one on one duel and the associated accoutrements is delusional.. In many situations this folks who are assaulted will have to deal with more than one threat and that is just the sad reality of the street--can't handle it--oh well then your dead..
I never said all situations are going to be one on one duels but they won't all be bumrushes either. I'm originally form Miami, Fl. I also lived in various big cities around the globe. I've worked as a doorman at a club, trained for personel protection work and to support it, and I've been to combat so I think I have a wee bit of understanding about violent situations. Please give us your esperience on dealing with such grave matters.


Smart teachers train their folks how to deal with multiples and there are many tactics that are useful and ways to employ position and technique to assist
A smart teacher will tell his students that when dealing with multiples its best to get a weapon or get out of dodge. If he is telling you that its easy or smart to take them on empty handed he is a delusional idiot.


IMO and in the opinions of most professionals economy is key in all combative situations and that translates most of the time to relying on fast impacting type attacks and finishing moves that can be completed in a few seconds or less.. Not enough time? Oh well--too bad--you die..
What are your credintials and what "professionals" are you talking about. The KEY to dealing with such situations is to be versatile because there is no standard. You don't know who you might be in an altercation with nor his skill level. The situation isn't always what you want it to be

[Ultimatewingchun]

Asia:

Tom Kagan is your sisuk? (Young uncle)

THAT'S INTERESTING...since I'm Tom Kagan's SIHING within the Moy Yat family.

So that also makes me your uncle of ving tsun (wing chun).

As I said earlier - you have your credentials and I have mine. And I'm telling you once again (as someone who's doing wing chun 31 years, teaching for 22 years - and has had many hundreds of students pass through my doors over those years)...I'm telling you that wing chun is being used on those clips from the documentary.

And if you had taken the time to read some of my past posts and threads before deciding to come to this forum and try and pass yourself off as someone who's wing chun knowledgable and therefore an authority on the style (which you're not)...

you would have found that I'm no wingchunner. (Even your new friend Knifefighter will tell you that...and I'd be the first one around here to tell you that 90% of the wing chun in the world today is basically bull5hit. But the other 10% or so is definitely the real deal).

There are indeed plenty of people here with solid wing chun experience and who have tested it in real life confrontations many times (myself included).

[Asia]

Asia:

Tom Kagan is your sisuk? (Young uncle)

THAT'S INTERESTING...since I'm Tom Kagan's SIHING within the Moy Yat family.

So that makes me your older uncle of ving tsun (wing chun).

Great we're all one big family, but I tend to beat up my uncles. ;)


So listen, nephew...stop being so arrogant and thick-headed simply because you're a combatives instructor in the military. That doesn't make you Duane Dieter - and he CLEARLY has included some wing chun in the CQD program he's designed for Special Ops.
Never did say it made me Duane but it does give me more of an insight on what he is doing much much more than you. Thats not arrogance thats fact. Its not as clear as you think and I still think you want it to be CLEARER than it is.


Get over it....(and get over yourself).

I ask you take the same advice, dear Uncle.


As I said earlier - you have your credentials and I have mine. And I'm telling you once again (as someone who's doing wing chun 31 years, teaching for 22 years - and has had many hundreds of students pass through my doors over those years)...I'm telling you that wing chun is being used on those clips from the documentary.
In all those years when did you do anything as shown in the clip? I've asked before but no answer. You say their doing WC but given the context of only two parts of the clip that isn't clear because one point has NO context in WC.


And if you had taken the time to read some of my past posts and threads before deciding to come to this forum and try and pass yourself off as someone who's wing chun knowledgable and therefore an authority on the style (which you're not)...
When did I ever pass myself of as an authority on WC, I posted the opposite of that. I HAVE been representing myself as what I am thats someone who knows more about whats going on in the documentary than you.


you would have found that I'm no wingchunner. (Even your new friend Knifefighter will tell you that).
The term is CHUNNER or _ing __unner. ;) We worked hard in developing that. Now what I have found is that you like throwing how much WC you have but you don't want to listen to what someone who has experince says. You attacked me at the start and the fact that you have NO experience what so ever in Modern Combatives but feel you can tell me what you THINK you saw. Even when I told you why we did things and the drills we used you kept acting like you know better. If thats the case let me see YOUR Ceritificates of Training, who signed them? You have your experience and credentials in WC but that doesn't mean much to this subject except you think what they do is derived form it. THAT is much more arrogant than I have been.


So come down off your high horse and learn how to play nice around here - since there are indeed plenty of people here with solid wing chun experience and who have tested it in real life confrontations many times (myself included).
How may have done that in the context of military operations? *crickets*
Ok then. When we start talking about WC in a civilian context then thats another matter but thats not what we have been discussing now is it?

You are just as guilty as I on the arrogance but unlike you I am a subject matter expert on this. If you realize and understand that first then it would be better than just trying to tell me to get off my high horse because I telling you about something you don't know.

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's only one statement that requires any kind of response:

"In all those years when did you do anything as shown in the clip?"


***THERE'S chaining punching going on in the first two clips and someone carefully "walking" towards a potential hostile customer while in the wing chun on guard position in the third clip (and those 3 scenes are the ONLY things that we should be discussing)....

and I've chain punched and walked toward an opponent like that (as I was taught to do in certain circumstances by one or both of my wing chun instructors)...I've done those things many, many times.

[Tom Kagan]

That doesn't make you Duane Dieter - and he CLEARLY has included some wing chun in the CQD program he's designed for Special Ops.


Duane Dieter's background and what may or may not have been his inspiration for any or all elements contained within CQD(tm) has yet to be verified. Asia is attempting to investigate by contacting Duane Dieter directly and having a conversation at a security clearance level where a real dialogue would occur.

No one other than Asia here is more qualified to ask such questions and have a real chance of getting complete and direct answers. Don't **** him off; he has no reason to do this for the WC community other than Asia's idle curiosity combined with me leaning on our friendship by asking him.


In case you were curious, what has already been verified is that CQD(tm) is not in use by any regular or special units of the Army, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard. CQD(tm) is also not in use by the rank and file of the Navy.

The extent of its current usage appears to be a a week long seminar for SEAL units towards the end of BUD/s. That's a pretty limited venue.

Additionally, the CQD(tm) program predates the current generation of Army and Marine Combatives and may yet be phased out in favor of programs which do take greater consideration of the lessons learned of our country's recent campaigns.

I also might add that Asia isn't just any combatives instructor in the Army - he has a hand in writing the actual book of lessons learned.


Finding "key WC elements" as Edmund put it, in other venues (whether related or not) may well be inspirational; it may even give clues as to whether a practitioner is on the right path. But why the insistence on "IT IS WC IT IS WC IT IS WC" ? I don't get it. It's not like anyone's life depended on it.

[Asia]

***THERE'S chaining punching going on in the first two clips and someone carefully "walking" towards a potential hostile customer while in the wing chun on guard position in the third clip (and those 3 scenes are the ONLY things that we should be discussing)....

@ abou 2:18 in the clip Tom posted you have two guys walking up and they get in a crouched read stance much like a wrestler. (This is clearly seen @ 2:28) The only punching that is clear is after that. The hood is lifted and he throws 2~3 punches. Its not clear but its not like its uniquely WC.

The last two scenes starting with 2:45 if of a guy perparing to cuff a man on the ground. His starting position is similar to done in a defensive draw, in this case holstering. He is in a semi crouched stance and moves to the guy. I explained the stance earliear and why its used, I guess that was just trolling, right. He proceeds to control the man by using the forarm on the neck, very common in grappling arts. and gets into a based wide base side mount. This is repeated in the latter scenes. So which part of it that is uniquely WC?

So far we have unclear punching and a stance that makes you say its WC, is that correct?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look...forget all the "credentials" business for a second.

And just look at the 3 clips in question.

How can you (or anyone) say that the guy is not chain punching in the first two?

How can you not recognize the wing chun on guard centerline position in the 3rd clip?


It doesn't matter what you (or anyone) decides to call or label the moves in question...or say that they came from here or there (but have nothing to do with wing chun).

It's the age-old routine going on here...with you saying:

"Who do you believe? Me? Or your own eyes?"

[Asia]

"And I'm a military combatives instructor - so naturally you better believe me. Even if the guy who came up with the program, Duane Dieter, has wing chun training in his background...NO...just believe me when I tell you that what you see is NOT what you see."
As we sorted out I have WC in my background as well. That alone doesn't prove your point.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yes - it is up to the people to judge what they see...and so far I think that most of the folks who've responded...wait...better yet:

Let's just ask the question and tally the answers at the end.

Who thinks that they see chain punching going on in the first 2 scenes?

And who thinks they see the wing chun on guard position being used in the 3rd scene?

Make you just saw this vid for the first time...now please tell us what you think you saw in those 3 scenes.

[Asia]

Here's a better idea post this in a totally neutral forum and see what reaction you get. THAT is how you take a proper poll. The fact you didn't even think of those factors shows your extreme bias already.

[Knifefighter]

you would have found that I'm no wingchunner. (Even your new friend Knifefighter will tell you that...and I'd be the first one around here to tell you that 90% of the wing chun in the world today is basically bull5hit. But the other 10% or so is definitely the real deal).
I wouldn't go that far. While you have incorporated some boxing and grappling into your WC, I still think of you as pretty much a die-hard WC guy... sheesh just look at your obsession with this subject as an example.

BTW, thinking that 90% of other WC is B.S. puts you square in the camp with all the other WC guys.

I'll just sit back now and watch as Asia P3wns everyone some more.

[godzillakungfu]

What is your military experience UWC?

[Tom Kagan]

CAUTION: Please disqualify yourself from answering if you know deep down inside that you're a bit "intimidated" (unnecessarily) into saying that you're not sure of what you're seeing because there's a guy here who is a combatives instructor and he's telling you that you're wrong if you think what you saw is wing chun.

Asia doesn't intimidate me.


I can say unequivically, I do not see a WC guard position. I have enough observational and hands-on experience in wrestling (I am related to three former professional wrestlers) to say that while it was a bit robotic in the clip, the guard influence is grappling. He has his power hand forward, not back. (NOTE to Victor: Miguel Hernandez's son is a champion wrestler. You could probably speak to him about it.)

If anything, my first viewing of the clip immediately brought to mind Geoff Thompson's "fence" more than anything else.


The alleged chain punching? Well, that's a little more interesting. However, given what I've seen of S.C.A.R.S. - the previous SEAL h2h training evolution to CQD(tm) - it would not surprise me to a bit to learn the true the influence is from there. Now, S.C.A.R.S. definitely has a southern Chinese MA influence (San Soo) through Jerry Peterson. It also has a JKD influence through Richard Burton. But to say this is "clearly WC chain punching" is quite a stretch. The best I could say what is on the clip is a distant relative.


Frankly, I've always considered "chain punching" a horrible b@stardization of the concept of "FahnSao". Chain punching, IMO, has a limited (if any) use as a direct strategy that, for the nutridding love of a clip of Vitor Belfort (not a WC or even a JKD guy), has somehow become a defining characteristic of WC.


WC Chain punching? You can have it. I don't want it. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

Tom Kagan...you just mentioned southern Chinese martial arts and JKD in the same breath as the "chain punching" done in the 2 scenes...but yet you say that there's no link in the doc to chain punching as we in wing chun know it...LOT'S OF LUCK WITH THAT LOGIC...and then you try to be on all sides of the issue by saying that chain punching stinks anyway...RIGHHHHT.

And Dale Frank:

How much wing chun did you see on the 6 vids I posted on here of myself about 1.5 years ago? (Not much)...and was your critique of those vids mostly positive PRECISELY because there was so much MMA based stuff and not just wing chun?

Weren't you actually defending those vids to some of the wingchunners at the time? Telling them that the boxing/kickboxing they saw was realism at work when they were criticizing why I wasn't doing more wing chun?

[YungChun]

A smart teacher will tell his students that when dealing with multiples its best to get a weapon or get out of dodge. If he is telling you that its easy or smart to take them on empty handed he is a delusional idiot.


Unreasonable argument.. You cannot control when trouble finds you.. Running away is not always an option.. This is news to you?

Some folks simply don't/can't/won't "carry", and that IS reality.. Even if you do then other issues exist such as the ability to deploy, etc..

I and others have had encounters with more than one opponent and yes it's doable and also something pros focus on and something that is trained for..

[YungChun]

Frankly, I've always considered "chain punching" a horrible b@stardization of the concept of "FahnSao". Chain punching, IMO, has a limited (if any) use as a direct strategy that, for the nutridding love of a clip of Vitor Belfort (not a WC or even a JKD guy), has somehow become a defining characteristic of WC.


WC Chain punching? You can have it. I don't want it. :D

Agreed.

I usually say there's no such thing as CP.. :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

YungChun:

We all know how overworked/overestimated the chain punch attack can be...(kinda like the guard position in BJJ...wouldn't you say, Dale?)...

We all know that, YungChun.

But when the opportunity is there to chain punch someone 3-4 times unanswered in the same place (ie.- his face)...you'd take it, wouldn't you? :cool: :D :rolleyes: (and the opportunity was there for the SP guy in the documentary 2x - as he suddenly found himself VERY close to someone who wasn't protecting the line to his face).

And btw, Dale, check out what Josh Barnett had to say about using the catch wrestling Step Over Toe Hold (SOTH) submission against the BJJ open guard on mma.tv/general forums/catchwrestling...on the thread entitled: "The Step Over Toe-Hold" ...his post appears directly after one of mine, in fact.

[Tom Kagan]

Tom Kagan...you just mentioned southern Chinese martial arts and JKD in the same breath as the "chain punching" done in the 2 scenes...but yet you say that there's no link in the doc to chain punching as we in wing chun know it...LOT'S OF LUCK WITH THAT LOGIC...and then you try to be on all sides of the issue by saying that chain punching stinks anyway...RIGHHHHT.


So, basically, if I understand you correctly, instead of saying you disagree with my assessment, you are telling me what to think. Is that about right?

(And as far as JKD is concerned, a very prominent JKD instructor once said to me, in a rather candid moment, that typical JKD is about taking the best from all styles and f*cking it up beyond all recognition as only a Bruce Lee nutrider could dream of.)



And then ther'e you telling me not to pi_ _ (ss) off Asia - because he's here to teach us a few things...RIGHHHT again, Tom...No...you're not intimidated by his credentials game of "trust me, I know what I'm talking about - and you wing chun guys don't know squatt."


INCORRECT.


I said Duane Dieter will talk to Asia, not you or me. It has nothing to do with whatever agenda you seem to think Asia has. You may find Asia to be the largest, most arrogant pain in the ass this side of the Mississippi, but he has no stake whatsoever in whether that is really "WC" or not. I know and trust him well enough that, if indeed it turns out that is "WC chain punching," he will post this as verified fact - regardless of any previous bias he may or may not have. Why? Because, at the end of the day, he doesn't care what it is, he's just trying to do me a favor.

And why do you think I went through all this effort for you? Though you may now think I have some other agenda, the truth is very simple: because I actually want to know.

Perhaps you are suggesting you don't want anyone to actually go find out this information from Duane Dieter?

But this does beg a question: Why did you post what you observed in the documentary in the first place, if not to subject this whole thing to a forum of peer review?


(Sheesh. This is the thanks I get for spending nearly a full day's work in total trying to give my SiHing exactly what he asked for by posting both the clip and full documentary.)

[Tom Kagan]

As for me telling you what to think...No...I was simply pointing out the inconsistencies in your posts...but you can continue thinking whatever you like, Tom...I don't care. :rolleyes:

Obviously, you do care. Otherwise, you wouldn't have bothered.


I did not say there was no link. I said the link, given what is currently known, is dubious. The link you suggest is currently based upon examining and comparing similarities in shapes. Well, I'm actually going out to try to find the actual verifiable proof or disproof of your conjecture.

Your response? You are trying to tell me "don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain" by suggesting you know more about this missing link than even Duane Dieter. And, you are now suggesting the "Duane Dieter is a WC guy" (unverified) is equivalent to the WC->JKD->Richard Burton->S.C.A.R.S.->CQD(tm) (dubious) idea of a link.

I'll be happy to ask Asia not to bother posting publicly what Duane Dieter says and just tell me privately, if that's what you want. Just say the word, SiHing. I've given you all that you asked for already. I have no problem if you wish this, too.

[tbone]

My first post guys so be easy on me. :)

It looks like Wing Chun CPs to me.

I understand that it may not be but it sure looks like it.

The stance looks like Wing Chun too. I also think it looks similar to the wrestling stance someone mentioned. So its similar to both IMO.

[Tom Kagan]

Did you not see that, Tom?

As I stated before, the copy you gave me does not have enough resolution to make it out 100%. However, as I stated before, I agreed it was more likely than not as you describe. I'll give you this, I'll agree for the sake of discussion, it's close enough for rock and roll as even Asia does not dispute it (did you catch this?) So, your description probably is quite similar to the actual combatives drill.


Now, with that out of the way, I have already explained why I feel a comparison based on aesthetic similarities is insufficient evidence. And, I have previously written there are other plausible explanations as to why there appears to be a familiar signature in the form of a San Soo influence - another KungFu variant with verifiable proof of a link with SEAL combatives training.

The WC community does not have and never had the lock on chain punching. Considering I think its not such a great choice as a direct strategy (I wrote that before, too - notice my phrasing - I choose words carefully), I consider this a good sign. ;)

[Asia]

Thank you tbone. Are you sure that I didn't intimidate you on the wrestling part because UWC says that what I said shouldn't be taken into account.:(

[Nick Forrer]

YungChun:

We all know how overworked/overestimated the chain punch attack can be...(kinda like the guard position in BJJ...wouldn't you say, Dale?)...

And btw, Dale, check out what Josh Barnett had to say about using the catch wrestling Step Over Toe Hold (SOTH) submission against the BJJ open guard on mma.tv/general forums/catchwrestling...on the thread entitled: "The Step Over Toe-Hold" ...his post appears directly after one of mine, in fact.

I have seen many fights in mma finished from the guard or in which the eventual winner used the guard to their advantage during the fight....I have never seen an mma fight finished with a step over toe hold though.... Are there any that you can tell us about Victor?

And are you going to go to Renzo Gracies at some point to roll with the BJJ guys there? you could try out the move and let us know how it works out against the 'wh0re position'.

[tbone]

Thank you tbone. Are you sure that I didn't intimidate you on the wrestling part because UWC says that what I said shouldn't be taken into account.:(

haha no sir you did not intimidate me. :) I have a little wrestling experience myself so I've seen it before.

I'd also like to add that the video can't REALLY settle this. The stance appears similar to Wing Chun but there could be many subtle things occurring that can't be identified in the video. Are the wrists truly on the centerline or the nipple or shoulder? Why? Does this person know that he's protecting the centerline in this stance and why? Etc.

The punches seem a bit easier to categorize but maybe not. As has been mentioned, it may be some other MA that influenced them.

It does appear similar to WC as I view it. I would like to hear back from you once you've heard from Duane Deiter.

[YungChun]

YungChun:

We all know how overworked/overestimated the chain punch attack can be...(kinda like the guard position in BJJ...wouldn't you say, Dale?)...

We all know that, YungChun.

But when the opportunity is there to chain punch someone 3-4 times unanswered in the same place (ie.- his face)...you'd take it, wouldn't you?

Yes.

This reflects my attitude about how students *think* about what they are doing.. I am big on how folks think about what they do, and I think it can often make the difference between being able to use the system or not. After observing and studying the effect of what is called "Chain Punching" on students I came to the conclusion that folks are being misled by the term..

With the few folks I have had the chance to teach some WCK to, I have used the term, but explained the term differently.. I tell folks that CPing is a drill, in a sense a mini kata that trains some key elements of the system at a certain stages of development. I also differentiate Chaining from Chain Punching, Chaining can be used with a number of strikes and so then Chaining can be how some strikes can be connected and also incorporate WCK elements, like two line theory, hand replacement, economy, etc.

A WCK man may indeed use two, three, or more punches in a row but I do not call this Chain Punching.. Because the timing, the use of the body and synchronization with footwork seems to go out the window when students "Chain Punch" they seem to fall into the old "egg beater" attack mentality.. Any attempt to strike should be measured and meaningful, yes the mechanics of the CP is there but the intent and/or thought process is different.

This is to prevent students from "thinking" that Chain Punching is a self contained method unto itself and instead think of CP in and of itself as an exercise in some basic but core WCK concepts, mechanics and energy, and that can be applied in fighting, but not as a stand alone methodology..

Hope that makes sense.. :)

[YungChun]

THAT'S INTERESTING...since I'm Tom Kagan's SIHING

Ha...! Mine too... :D

Small WC world..

Who's Asia's Sifu?

[AmanuJRY]

How can you (or anyone) say that the guy is not chain punching in the first two?

So he is...so what! I've seen Chuck Liddel throw chain punches. Has he trained WC? Was he using WC?:confused:



How can you not recognize the wing chun on guard centerline position in the 3rd clip?"

Yeah, I also saw Mr. Miagi do it in Karate Kid.:rolleyes:


Even if Duane Dieter has studied WC, what he is teaching in his 15min of spotlight is not WC. Tony Blauer's SPEAR system has some WC 'looking' techs, does that mean he uses WC?

[Asia]

Try and be honest with yourself


What I find most disturbing about this whole business is that the mere mention (by me) that I almost fell out of my chair because it LOOKED LIKE the SP were using some wing chun moves - and that I believed they were...

LIAR. You said the WERE you didn't say it LOOKED LIKE. Even your thread title showed that. Let me refresh your memory.


U.S. Special Forces Use Wing Chun !!!

Hmmm no LOOKED LIKE there. Maybe its in your post:

I almost fell out of my chair the other night. I was watching (and quickly decided to tape) a documentary about the U.S. Special Forces in general (ie.- Navy Seals, Green Berets, etc.) - and about the SP Forces in particular stationed in Afghanistan hunting down renegade Taliban and Al Quaeda on the Afghan-Pakistan border.

Incredible stuff...those guys....their training regimen...the mindset they're taught....their discipline...their guts.

About 3/4's of the way through there came a segment of their training routine they call C.Q.D. (Close Quarters Defense).

A guy is blindfolded in the middle of a dark room with something resembling a basket over his head that is hanging by a wire attached to a pulley - so he can't see a thing.

Two guys enter the room wearing gigantic headgear with hard plastic face guards made by FIST...

when they get very close - the basket is pulled of his head and they attack him....

and his response was pure wing chun straight blast chain punches to their faces with serious follow through - followed by the wing chun guard hands (jong sao).

You didn't say it LOOKED LIKE there either you said thyer were doing WC.

So you just lied to everyone.


sparked such VEHEMENT DENIALS AND RIDICULE...and telling me that I was DELUSIONAL if I thought that...yadda, yadda. (Mostly by Asia).

Lets see my first post on the matter was that WC is not part of the MAC program. The term "US Special Forces" actually refers to the ARMY "Green Berets" they train MAC. You kept saying it did. I asked for the video yet you still acted like an jack ass. which brings us to now.


It is no big deal at the end of the day if they REALLY were chain punching ala wing chun (and not from Jack Dempsey or some Japanese karate style)....you're right.
So then why all the hoopla from Asia about it?

That's what I'd like to know!
Do you have some kind of mental block? YOU made it a big deal. I simply stated a FACT that WC is NOT the only art that uses a vertical fist or chain punching.

Victor you made much more of an issue out of this than I have. I intiatially gave my input and said wait to see the vid. YOU kept going. Funny you said you were going to wait for the vid several times yet kept going. SOOOO that make me think its not as strong as you think it is.

Bottomline stop trying to place this all on me. YOU are the one responsible for the most *******ery on the issue. PERIOD.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Do you have some kind of mental block? YOU made it a big deal. I simply stated a FACT that WC is NOT the only art that uses a vertical fist or chain punching."


***REALLY NOW???!!! And whose nose is growing longer now? You didn't JUST say that WC is NOT the only art that uses a vertical fist or chain punching.

YOU SAID THAT I WAS DELUSIONAL FOR THINKING THAT WHAT I SAW ON THE VID WAS COMING FROM WING CHUN.....:rolleyes:

(In other words, you're admitting now that it COULD be from wing chun - or it could be from somewhere else - but before you were saying that people (ie.- Victor) would be "delusional" if they thought that in fact it came from wing chun.)

So which is it?

...............


"Funny you said you were going to wait for the vid several times yet kept going. SOOOO that make me think its not as strong as you think it is."

***AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN: IF YOU GET A FIRST HAND COPY OF THE DOC (which won't be as dark as what Tom posted)...AND IF YOU PLAY THE 2 PUNCH SCENES IN SLOW MOTION...

THEN IT WILL BE CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT THEY WERE CHAIN PUNCHING EXACTLY LIKE HOW IT'S DONE IN WING CHUN.

Whether or not it was ACTUALLY taken from wing chun (and not somewhere else) remains to be seen - and only Duane Dieter can answer that).

And whatever he says (that I can verify) will be final with me.

Will it be final with you, Asia?

[Asia]

***REALLY NOW???!!! And whose nose is growing longer now? You didn't JUST say that WC is NOT the only art that uses a vertical fist or chain punching.

YOU SAID THAT I WAS DELUSIONAL FOR THINKING THAT WHAT I SAW ON THE VID WAS COMING FROM WING CHUN.....

(In other words, you're admitting now that it COULD be from wing chun - or it could be from somewhere else - but before people you were saying that people (ie.- Victor) would be "delusional" if they thought that in fact it came from wing chun.)

So which is it?

I said YOU were delusional because regardless of what I said you told me I was wrong and it was WC despite the fact you have no experience in Military combatives. THAT is delusional.

I said prior to that I said that we need to see the clip because on one of the drills you claimed as WC it don't make since for the drill becaues WC doesn't deal with restraining pple on the ground.

Its simple, Victor, try and keep it straight.



***AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN: IF YOU GET A FIRST HAND COPY OF THE DOC (which won't be as dark as what Tom posted)...AND IF YOU PLAY THE 2 PUNCH SCENES IN SLOW MOTION...

THEN IT WILL BE CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT THEY WERE CHAIN PUNCHING EXACTLY LIKE HOW IT'S DONE IN WING CHUN.

:rolleyes: You don't seem to get it do you.


Whether or not it was ACTUALLY taken from wing chun (and not somewhere else) remains to be seen - and only Duane Dieter can answer that).

And whatever he says (that I can verify) will be final with me.

Will it be final with you, Asia?
It was never that big of an issue with me. Its just fun watching you spazz out on **** you don't know.

If Duane says everything he does is WC it still doesn't change a single thing I said which is WC is not part of MAC which is THE offical program of SF, Rangers, and other soldiers. You seem not to want to understand that.

[Tom Kagan]

The term "US Special Forces" actually refers to the ARMY "Green Berets" they train MAC.


Even though it does not affect what you are on Victor's case for, I'd cut him a minor amount of slack on this one aspect of the issue. Most people don't even understand a Marine and a Soldier are two different things. Even less know there is a difference between a SEAL and a Nightstalker.

Lay people lump all the special operations units of each branch of the service under a "Special Forces" moniker. Yes, it's not technically correct, but that's what happens. I myself didn't learn the differences until about 7 years ago when the Army was hot for my wife by offering a JAG commission (she declined).


The documentary itself blurred the distinction from its editing. The first segment was about the Green Berets (the "true" Special Forces) operating in Afghanistan. With very little segway, the documentary jumped into to the CQD(tm) specific portions of overall SEAL training - the clip in question. (I found it amusing to see all the trademarks show up on the captions; I thought it came across as an mini-infomercial at first. :) )


And now, back to our regularly scheduled mudslinging.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"If Duane says everything he does is WC it still doesn't change a single thing..." (Asia)


***THANK YOU, finally...Asia...

for saying out loud what I've been trying to demonstrate about you (but didn't have the smoking gun until now):

NO MATTER WHAT DUANE DIETER SAYS......Asia will still believe (and proclaim from the rooftops)...that what we saw the SPECIAL OPS guys doing was not wing chun based.

So now YOU know better than anyone???!!!

I may suffer from temper tandrums, Asia...but it's you who's clearly DELUSIONAL.

(It's called megalomania - and you have a sad case of it, poor nephew :o :rolleyes: ).

NOW....finally, I can be through with YOU...not with the thread...not with trying to find out the scoop from Dieter and reporting it here...but with having to deal with you - as you have done a better job than I could ever have in exposing yourself as our very own Napolean Bonaparte. :p


Good luck to you on the rest of your journey through life, my man...as I suspect you'll need all the luck you can get.

[Tom Kagan]

"If Duane says everything he does is WC it still doesn't change a single thing..." (Asia)


***THANK YOU, finally...Asia...

for saying out loud what I've been trying to demonstrate about you (but didn't have the smoking gun until now):

NO MATTER WHAT DUANE DIETER SAYS......Asia will still believe (and proclaim from the rooftops)...that what we saw the SPECIAL OPS guys doing was not wing chun based.

So now YOU know better than anyone???!!!

I may suffer from temper tandrums, Asia...but it's you who's clearly DELUSIONAL.

(It's called megalomania - and you have a sad case of it, poor nephew :o :rolleyes: ).

NOW....finally, I can be through with YOU...not with the thread...not with trying to find out the scoop from Dieter and reporting it here...but with having to deal with you - as you have done a better job than I could ever have in exposing yourself as our very own Napolean Bonaparte. :p


Good luck to you on the rest of your journey through life, my man...as I suspect you'll need all the luck you can get.


Regardless of any preconceived he has or or post-conceived notions he may yet formulate, Asia will still post the findings and he will accept them.


However, even if the above turns out to be true, can you accept the following?

Already verified: CQD(tm) is not in use by any other military units besides SEAL, only in a limited capacity, and the possibility remains it may be phased out in favor of the more modern Army or Marine influenced combatives program.

(That's what Asia means regarding the origins of the components of CQD(tm) and what it won't change.)



Victor, I have the distinct impression Asia is having fun at this, whereas you are not. The funny thing is, I now get the impression Asia now rooting for this to really be "WC chain punching" so he can have yet more ammo to make more fun of the SEALS. :D

So, calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

:)

[Asia]

"If Duane says everything he does is WC it still doesn't change a single thing..." (Asia)


***THANK YOU, finally...Asia...

for saying out loud what I've been trying to demonstrate about you (but didn't have the smoking gun until now):

NO MATTER WHAT DUANE DIETER SAYS......Asia will still believe (and proclaim from the rooftops)...that what we saw the SPECIAL OPS guys doing was not wing chun based.

So now YOU know better than anyone???!!!

I may suffer from temper tandrums, Asia...but it's you who's clearly DELUSIONAL.

(It's called megalomania - and you have a sad case of it, poor nephew :o :rolleyes: ).

NOW....finally, I can be through with YOU...not with the thread...not with trying to find out the scoop from Dieter and reporting it here...but with having to deal with you - as you have done a better job than I could ever have in exposing yourself as our very own Napolean Bonaparte. :p


Good luck to you on the rest of your journey through life, my man...as I suspect you'll need all the luck you can get.

Vic you need to reread what I posted. Its seems alot of things flew over your head there. This is why you need lot READ and COMPREHEND more and RANT less. This post makes you look like a fool. READ and COMPREHEND.

Tom seems to got it clearly so you need to listen to your nephews to avoid confusion in the future. ;)

[YungChun]

Already verified: CQD(tm) is not in use by any other military units besides SEAL, only in a limited capacity, and the possibility remains it may be phased out in favor of the more modern Army or Marine influenced combatives program.

The Marines system is based largely on Okinowan karate. :rolleyes: Minus the kata and with some grappling added and a touch of specialized bayonet work and weapons defense work tossed in.

Just more WCK for us... I could care less if no one does WCK except ME and MINE.. :D :p :cool:

[GungFuHillbilly]

Lay people lump all the special operations units of each branch of the service under a "Special Forces" moniker. Yes, it's not technically correct, but that's what happens.

Good point Tom.

Being a former U.S. Marine I find myself assuming a lot of the time that people know what I am talking about in a conversation.

So people are perhaps more clear, the term ‘Special Forces’ refers to the Green Berets specifically called the Special Forces Command. While ‘Special Operational Forces’ refers to the Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) which overseas all the Special Ops groups of every branch of the military.

Here’s my question for Victor:

IF (in some alternate reality) the entire Special Warfare Group of the Navy stated unequivocally that they train in wing chun, what does that mean for civilians training in the art?

In other words, at the end of the day why do you really care what the military does or does not train in?

And if this turns out to be 100% wing chun on the documentary (for the sake of argument); is this supposed to somehow lay credence to wing chun kuen?

Regards,
GFH

[Tom Kagan]

The Marines system is based largely on Okinowan karate. :rolleyes: Minus the kata and with some grappling added and a touch of specialized bayonet work and weapons defense work tossed in.



Hmmm...

The training information contained within Marine Corps Order 1500.54B pretty much resembles Army Field Manual 3-25.150 from my reading, with FM 3-25.150 containing more detail.


Gee, if only we knew of an expert who instructs Soldiers and Marines, is well versed in the specifics of the modern military combatives programs, and works side by side with the personnel who wrote those documents to call on. :rolleyes:

[YungChun]

Hmmm...

The training information contained within Marine Corps Order 1500.54B pretty much resembles Army Field Manual 3-25.150 from my reading, with FM 3-25.150 containing more detail.


From Rich at Quantico..



Hi Jim. Yes, lots of Okinawan karate is in the system. No kata though, except for a 'combat pattern' using fixed bayonets.

Also in the system are knife and stick work, ju jitsu, Aikido.

Body conditioning is intense, with a form of arm pounding, leg pounding and body pounding.

Very important is the inclusion early on of ukemi (rolls and falls).

Hmm... also a lot of anatomy, pressure points, the use of garrots (SP?).

Disarms and weapons retention.

The instructor/trainer level goes deep into combat conditioning, advanced close combat with firearms, chemical weapons, and the inclusion of special instructors such as Ken Shamrock.

Equally important is the continuous inclusion of the study of other warrior cultures, plus what might be considered sensitivity training.

The program does take on the flavor of the CO and SNOIC. The first CO was big on bayonet usage and grappling. His senior NCO was a Uechi/Oki Karate practitioner. The 2nd CO was big on JJ and his senior NCO is/was a ranked Muay Thai kick boxer. The current CO has added more conditioning and close combat with firearms, while his senior NCO is a 4th degree Shotokan practitioner.

I have been under all three regimes to some extent so have seen some shift in emphasis. However, the program basics have not changed much since it was instituted in 2000.


This is not standard training it's the Marine Martial Arts Program....

[Ultimatewingchun]

OH...I see...maybe it's just the NAVY SEALS who are using Dieter's CQD program...and maybe that program does include some wing chun based chain punching, and possibly the on-guard hand/arm positioning as well.


Oh....OKAY...I get it.

Yeah..that explains everything. :rolleyes: :cool: :rolleyes:

Does it matter to me that the SEALS might be using wing chun?

Well...I won't lose any sleep over it if it turns out that Dieter says NO. :)

But it does bother me when people come on this forum and try to say - in one way or another...that all wing chun is garbage.

It's an insult to not only what I, for one, have been doing with my life for the last 31 years - but an insult to what I KNOW to be true from my own experiences and from the experiences of plenty of other people that I have come to know and/or observe over the course of many years:

WHICH IS THAT WING CHUN - WHEN UNDERSTOOD AND PERFORMED WELL - CAN BE A KICKA55 ART. :D :cool:

And the distinct impression I got from Asia's posts (right from the get-go on these SF/wing chun threads) was that he was hostile to wing chun and thinks it's garbage...If I'm wrong about that..then wonderful.

If his motivation was simply to set the record straight about the SEALS and what they might do as opposed to what other portions of SPECIAL FORCES/OPS do...fine.

No big deal.

[YungChun]

MCMAP POSTER One mind any weapon, I think is the new slogan... :cool:

Why can't pics be displayed on this site???

[crimsonghost]

Don't forget marine force recon as SF! lol! Alot of these guys train differently. From what I've been told, they take what's effective in different arts and train what's deemed to be fit for SF. My marine, trained Okinawan Karate in Okinawa and in basic and such in the USMC, now, that's just basic. When he went to recon he trained his specialty, hand to hand, weapons, drills, and such many hours and days a week. That's all they did was train when they weren't on missions.
He says that they would train hand to hand for 8 hours one day and then weapons for 8 hours the next, and so on.
Not all of it was WC/WT, not all was Okinawan Karate, it was mixed. Krav Maga is a very mixed art, for example, and example only. It's neat to contemplate as civies what these guys train. But, as far as I'm concerned, it's not a big deal in the civilian world.
my hubbie, is combining what he learned in force recon in the WC he teaches outside the military, and I enjoy the training very much. It's definately different than what's popular and readilly available. Not to mention nasty and effective. lol!
But, he did train WT through military funding, knows sifu's who have done seminars and training for days and hours while he was in the service. That's how he got hipped on to WT, was being exposed to it in training in the marine corps.
He's been out for 3-4 years, so what they do now may be completely different. But I really doubt it.
So, Please, stop comparing what the Army does with what SF in the USMC does. They are not the same, and they do NOT train the same. Maybe similar in some respects, but not the same.
As for this Dwane guy. I doubt that he trains and teaches any specific art singularly. He's most likely a TRUE Mixed martial artist. One who has rank and has studied several arts for years, put together what is tested and proven, and teaches his own style. If you want to know what he's teaching, ask him, or whatever.

[Tom Kagan]

From Rich at Quantico..



This is not standard training it's the Marine Martial Arts Program....


Hmmm ... I just came across this clip of some Marines training in their combatives program: MCMAP. This clip is part of the ongoing H2H combatives training after basic training.

I don't know about you. But, to me, it certainly doesn't look much like Okinawan Karate 'Rich at Quantico' mentioned. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwpYeLHv5hI

[mawali]

semper fi to one and all,

Close combat training is a supplement to weapons training. It may help to save your life and give you a fighting chance. Only a dum person will believe close quarter training replaces weapons! Never happen.

When I was in Okinawa, the Marines who were into Okinawan karate were doing it on their own time and since they were subject experts, they carried on the mantle in their individual units. If they were in Korea, then TKD practitioners became the subject experts for their unit. It was voluntary!
Although MCMAP is 'standardized'. individual instructors bring their level of training+the MCMAP initiative to the program so all develop according to their influences. No bid deal.

[crimsonghost]

semper fi to one and all,

Close combat training is a supplement to weapons training. It may help to save your life and give you a fighting chance. Only a dum person will believe close quarter training replaces weapons! Never happen.

When I was in Okinawa, the Marines who were into Okinawan karate were doing it on their own time and since they were subject experts, they carried on the mantle in their individual units. If they were in Korea, then TKD practitioners became the subject experts for their unit. It was voluntary!
Although MCMAP is 'standardized'. individual instructors bring their level of training+the MCMAP initiative to the program so all develop according to their influences. No bid deal.

That's what I've been told too. I just stated my husband's experience while he was in and was training his unit. He trained in Okinawan Karate with master Gima, got rank and studied Wing Tsun and he and his buddie made their own training style to teach to their units.
Basically, he said that they train many arts and take what is the most effective.
He had rank in judo when he went to boot camp and they had him assisting in instruction very early when the U.S.M.C found out about his experience in MA.
What Tom showed in the green belt training pictures looked like BJJ. Seems to be the fad these days, which is fine by me.

Nike's women's video, pretty cool!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svvp2GOCKnU

Anti-Grappling: The reasons we wear head gear, and face shield! lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2wjqN6kGyU&mode=related&search=

[crimsonghost]

Tom:

Hmmm ... I just came across this clip of some Marines training in their combatives program: MCMAP. This clip is part of the ongoing H2H combatives training after basic training.

I don't know about you. But, to me, it certainly doesn't look much like Okinawan Karate 'Rich at Quantico' mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwpYeLHv5hI

Jesse looked at the video, says its the "Bear Pit".
There's no striking in the pit. Looks like their really just having a bunch 'o fun to me. cute video.

[Tom Kagan]

Tom:
Jesse looked at the video, says its the "Bear Pit".
There's no striking in the pit. Looks like their really just having a bunch 'o fun to me. cute video.


Regardless, adding strikes would not make it even resemble Okinawan Karate - or so it would seem to me.

This is a video from MAI course - the Marines who teach MCMAP. At least here, there does seem to be a few portions which could make a reasonable claim of tracing to Okinawan Karate. However, it looks like the most lacking part of the training, IMO - at least of what they managed to record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx4r9JfaoCk


Anti-Grappling: The reasons we wear head gear, and face shield! lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2wjqN6kGyU&mode=related&search=


A very negative perspective on the video where your clip comes from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRbnvGDyPKI#5gMzmZO3gzw

... and a thoroughly rip-roaring obnoxious review of the video. Once you get past the locker room antics and humor, you can piece together a reasoned and also negative critique:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31697

[crimsonghost]

A very negative perspective on the video where your clip comes from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRbnvGDyPKI#5gMzmZO3gzw

... and a thoroughly rip-roaring obnoxious review of the video. Once you get past the locker room antics and humor, you can piece together a reasoned and also negative critique:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31697[/QUOTE]

I noticed that too. But it was still pretty funny.
As for the Okinawan Karate, I'm pretty sure they train that quite extensively, especally in boot camp, but you really don't see it in that video.
Jesse was telling me they get into different styles and techniques the higher up they go with that program. They really try to make them well rounded fighters.

The anti-grappling that Victor Guiterrez does was taught to him by Sifu Emin. (also one of Jesse's Sifu's) We train such techniques in class, and this is the very stuff I've used against BJJ stylists and grapplers, with great success. The main difference, is that we use our knees much more to keep the attacker's weight off us.
Plus, he's using more advanced stuff that I haven't learned yet. After the babys born I'm going to get that training (Can't wait!). Fun Stuff.
The anti-grappling is still evolving, and growing since it is so very new. (only about 6-8 years old). There's some better clips of him on there, but he's speaking completely in spanish so I didn't send them.

[crimsonghost]

Ahhh, I read the Bullshido critique. We agree that these are god awful take downs. But you must realize, these guys are strikers, not grapplers. When I was a "grappler" we trained techniqes against punches that were completely lame and unrealistic, because no one in class was a striker!
This is a serious delima for either a striker or grappler in training attempting to test their techniques against the other.
What we're trying to do is encourage more BJJ students and instructors to train with. We've had students flat out go to BJJ classes and skip out on Wing Chun training.
Now, when these guys come back (they always do) they sparr with Jesse and he's happy to oblige! lol! It's good training for Jesse and it has always shown our poor confused students that they cannot get through the anti-grappling.
I've had the same students (always seem to be the large men.) wrestle and spar with me when they come back (usually after about 6 months of BJJ training) to test it out. They get the same results.
They are unable to submit, arm bar, choke, whatever.
But we have to always have them wear the head gear and face mask while "grappling" with us. We're strikers and will hit and kick them in the face, we don't want to actually hurt our friends and students.
Now, Gutirrez is all hands on out there in spain. He hits, kicks and slaps his students around pretty hard without gear. American's really aren't in to that, although they like to say they are. lol!
One dental bill and it's us that gets sued! or lose a good student.
Besides, I don't see any reason to risk injuries in training. It's a shame to get injured and then be out for months, just a waste of time.

[crimsonghost]

WOW!
LOL!
You guys are really upset about the anti-grappling! I read more on Bullshido site.
All I can really recomend to you, if you think it's crap, try it out on a well trained WT person. Go to a class and check it out.
When I first saw BJJ I though it was the most sloppy absolute crap I've ever seen. Then when I worked out with a couple of people who knew what they were doing in BJJ my attitude changed really quick.
I came into WT as a well trained grappler and have made all these statements, questions, and doubts. You really have to experience it, feel it, and try your grappling techniques against it before you'll realy understand.
I thought I could get through easy too, until I tried it, reapeadly! lol!
It's easy to sit there and watch a video critizing and complaining online, whatever.
I can do the same thing watching grapplers.
the old saying, "don't knock it until you've tried it." comes to mind. "the doer alone learns."

[Tom Kagan]

I can do the same thing watching grapplers.
the old saying, "don't knock it until you've tried it." comes to mind.


If you feel there are poor videos of these "grapplers" of which you speak, then I encourage you to bring it to their attention along with your critique of it. Their mission is to expose this in any and all arts.

The signal to noise ratio on that forum can be quite low at times. However, if *you* know what you are doing, you will quickly realize who on there is also versas those who are not. If you have the training of which you speak, those few will recognize it.

[crimsonghost]

These videos of grapplers and seeing them in competition on t.v. is much different than feeling and actually grappling with them. What I was saying is that to watch is totally different than doing.
When I see these grapplers (I'm old school. the Ju-Jitsu I took was Japanese style) they still look rough, sloppy, and the techniques look bad. To my eye.
But when I have sparred or trained with these stylists it was a totally different story.
When BJJ first came out I was a Sempi in Ju-Jitsu and free sparred with a guy that was taking BJJ. I was overconfident and was over comed by him quickly. Once on the ground we evened out. He couldn't submit and neither could I, which surprised me greatly. He'd only been studying BJJ for under a year!
The same happens to these guys who wish to grapple with me and Jesse against the anti-grappling. They think it's silly and that there is no way that we can defend against their all mighty take downs. When they feel and experience the anti-grappling they are much humbled and wiser for the experience.
The same for these Wing Chunners who don't even cover ground fighting at all. They are of the old mindset that they just won't be taken to the ground. When this happens to them they freak, and get beaten.
All I said was try it out on an anti-grappler, from a good school. Sifu Grados is in New York, he's trained with Emin, and looks pretty good. I don't know if he does the anti-grappling, but I'm sure he does. Check him out, try it for yourself.
I've already done this a few times against BJJ stylists and grapplers. Granted, I'm just a beginner in the WC anti-grappling, but I've done very well with just the basics.