Involved in arrest this morning.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I had to go to a construction site in a really f'ed up part of town this morning. Everything went fine and I was walking back to me car parked on the opposite side of a large open lot adjacent to the site.

As I near my car I hear someone say "GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME!" and I see a woman and 2 seedy looking guys. I didn't even think. I just ran over to her and saw that these guys were crackhead/druggie types and she was terrified. One of them immediately began to curse me and tell me to go away and the other started to walk away a bit. I was hoping that just my presence was going to make them leave. but the mouthy guy tried to grab at the woman's purse. I grabbed his jacket (only crackheads wear jackets in the summer right?) and threw a right cross and hit him on the chin. He is staggered and I push him down and go to knee on chest, except that it was actually knee on throat and he begins to gurgle and choke and spit and for the first time since this entire incident began I thought "What the **** do I do?"

I saw the lady grab her cellphone and I yelled "call the police!" and she screamed back "I am!" and I just realized that the other guy was still standing there! He kept asking me to get off his "friend" and told me that I was hurting him. (I god**** hope so..)

A police cruiser came in about 5 minutes (maybe faster?) and when he approached I let the guy up. He immediately went into the worst acting job I've ever seen! "Officer, This man just beat me up for no reason! We were just asking this lady for change and this guy runs across the street and tries to KILL me!"

The officer actually knew these 2 bums as local crackheads and he knew right away what was happening. The woman was in her 50's and is a seceratary for a small office. She had seen these guys hanging around in the area before thought they never had approached her before. Either they were desperate or they picked her as an easy target.

Officer commended me on trying to help her, but reprimanded me on taking action (WTF?) and I gave a statement and a hug from the lady. (Evelynn)

guys took a ride in the car for attemted robbery.

Next time I go to that neighborhood I'm bringing a gun!

*awaits KFO to flame me for God knows what..*

[neilhytholt]

Yeah it's pretty stupid to go hitting somebody when he's not doing anything more than hassling somebody non-physically.

You might want to work on your verbal assault skills and learn some standup grappling.

[syn]

I kind of feel sorry for those guys. Yeah I would of attempted to verbally talk them down, but hey it oculd of gotten alot worse and better to be an activist than pacifist (in most situations that is).

[WinterPalm]

This is one of the things we train for. I participated in an arrest with a violent individual awhile back while on security duty. Except this involved the application of an arm lock, a takedown/tackle by an onduty manager, and the subsequent wrist/elbow/shoulder lock behind the back that I applied. The whole time he was struggling and yelling that we were assaulting him...meanwhile he had just robbed the store and had prior charges.:rolleyes:
He was the same type as your guy shaolin tiger...it is unfortunate but the neighborhood I work in is the worst neighborhood in my city and practically everybody is a degenerate/drugaddict/pimp/prostitute/etc.

Obviously in those situations we do what we are train to do. Could you have applied a standing arm bar with the takedown instead of punching? Or was that necessary based on the aggression and perceived threat? I would never apply too much force in a situation like that, but who gives a crap about the person trying to harm innocent people...let them get hurt!

Good job!

[Royal Dragon]

Knee On throat ehy.....Didn't notice he was still standing there? Good God man, ur dam lucky you weren't knifed, but good, for that foolish move.

[The Xia]

That was a risky thing you did Shaolin Tiger. Assuming that coats in summer means crackhead can prove fatal. Jackets can hide everything from knives to pistols and more. If they were wearing long coats they could have even had shotguns. You are also lucky that your assumption about crack proved correct, they could have been high on worse stuff, stuff that'd make em more dangerous in a fight. Also, you had luck in that the second guy didn't attack you. You walked into something that could have proven fatal.

But hey, you saved an innocent person from theft and possible bodily harm. :)

Still, you should recognize the danger of such situations.

[Royal Dragon]

If he was to intervne at all, the best thing to do is hose them down with pepper spray and call the cops. forget the movie hero stuff, it's tooo dangerous.

[KC Elbows]

Nice job.

On the flip side, involving the police also involves your name in paperwork, which is why gangs have an easy time killing witnesses, but those were just crackheads.

I've had crackheads try to steal gear from sites back when I worked in bad areas. I also had a framer's hammer and a prybar on my belt, possibly off of it when I'd confront them. Crackheads aren't gonna call the police on you for brandishing a weapon, and you really should have one in those circumstances, but, given that you didn't have one, and that there's no telling what would have happened to her, good job.

EDIT: and yeah, what The Xia said, it's really dangerous all things considered.

[Royal Dragon]

Allways carry peperspray.......it's best, and one of the most tourturous weapons avaliable, AND the very fact that you have to use it makes your attacker look more guilty in the eyes of the law.

[The Willow Sword]

You did the right thing. Don't sweat the rest of these guys telling you that you could have done something less aggressive blah blah blah:rolleyes:

If you had not been there and not acted like you did that woman would have been robbed beaten and worse yet, killed for what little money she probably had in her purse. I have no sympathy for low life turds who were, as they claimed, "askin the lady for some change." that is total BS anyway. The cop had to reprimand you because technically you assaulted that guy ,HOWEVER, had the crackhead decided to take you to court:rolleyes: (yeah right) it would have gone in YOUR favor and it would have been ruled justified use of force in defense of that lady(or however the lawyers want to word it).

You just dont THINK about the "LAW" in situations like that, or in any confrontation where your life or someone elses life is in peril. The Law only comes in to play after everything is said and done and that is how it should be. You hesitate and you get hurt real bad or worse yet, YOU get Killed.

SO kudos to you for helping that woman ST.

TWS

[neilhytholt]

You obviously must have never lived in any major city to think that ST did the correct thing.

Assaulting a homeless person is NOT the correct thing. If they're giving some woman a hard time (and they were not assaulting her, just messing with her verbally and grabbing at her purse), then you should go over and YELL at them, tell them to back off.

But what ST did was go up to the guy and start beating on him.

Basically what ST did was wrong in the eyes of the law and could land him in jail. In addition, if this occurrence really did happen, he blabbed about it on a public forum, which could be used in evidence in court of his wrong doing.

Not saying I don't morally support what he did. IMHO those guys should have been beaten up. But legally you cannot use that kind of force if they're just hassling somebody. That's called being a vigilante and is frowned on in the eyes of the law.

[KC Elbows]

TWS,

The cop reprimanded him because people DIE doing that stuff. Don't fool yourself. It's very dangerous, and you're not gonna find many people suggesting that unarmed is the smart way to go into that kind of situation. Since the assumption is that stoo posted this to spark debate, I don't see the point in rolling your eyes at exactly that.

RD is probably right about the mace. It's harder to explain a pry bar to the head than a macing.:D

[KC Elbows]

You obviously must have never lived in any major city to think that ST did the correct thing.

Assaulting a homeless person is NOT the correct thing. If they're giving some woman a hard time (and they were not assaulting her, just messing with her verbally and grabbing at her purse), then you should go over and YELL at them, tell them to back off.

But what ST did was go up to the guy and start beating on him.

Basically what ST did was wrong in the eyes of the law and could land him in jail. In addition, if this occurrence really did happen, he blabbed about it on a public forum, which could be used in evidence in court of his wrong doing.

Not saying I don't morally support what he did. IMHO those guys should have been beaten up. But legally you cannot use that kind of force if they're just hassling somebody. That's called being a vigilante and is frowned on in the eyes of the law.


Grabbing her purse is against the law. They began a robbery, that's what they were ARRESTED for. At that point, it is not vigilanteism at all, legally or otherwise. Unwise? Yes. But not illegal, the guy had already begun a robbery.

Of course, knowing that would require you to actually read the first post.

[neilhytholt]

Grabbing her purse is against the law. They began a robbery, that's what they were ARRESTED for. At that point, it is not vigilanteism at all, legally or otherwise. Unwise? Yes. But not illegal, the guy had already begun a robbery.

Of course, knowing that would require you to actually read the first post.

Beating up crooks if you're not a cop can get you sued or put in jail. Believe me, and I've had plenty of experience with law enforcement, ST is extremely lucky not to be in jail right now.

[The Willow Sword]

the "LAW" is not designed to "protect" the individual. the "Law" is designed to protect the written word of the law. sounds funny doesnt it? its true.

ST wasnt being a vigilante, he was being a good samaratin and a protector. You rationalize what he did as vigilante behavior. i rationalize it differently.

Its not so much that you can just tell someone that they are doing wrong in situations like that and they listen and realize the error of their ways. sometimes you have to hit them over the head with a sledge hammer, then you will notice that you have their strict attention.
The "LAWS" give the criminals and low lifes of this world more rights than the victims, that is why the criminal justice system is the most screwed up faction of law that has ever been concieved. we hear about the stories time and time again, yet we can sit back in our apathy and say " well what HE did was against the law and he could have been put in jail" well i say FUK THAT!! he saved that woman from being robbed and beaten, PERIOD.

TWS

[Royal Dragon]

You hesitate and you get hurt real bad or worse yet, YOU get Killed.

SO kudos to you for helping that woman ST

reply]
You play "Hero", and do some stupid MMA thing like "Knee on chest" or in this case throat, and youn get knifed in the kidneys by psycotic wackjobs who know they probably won't get caught anyway.

The "Best" thing would have been for her to either give them the $$ or hose them down with pepper spray and escape.

if these "Crack heads" had been the leaast bit agressive, he could have gotten both himself, and her killed by escalateng the situation.

[neilhytholt]

You hesitate and you get hurt real bad or worse yet, YOU get Killed.

SO kudos to you for helping that woman ST

reply]
You play "Hero", and do some stupid MMA thing like "Knee on chest" or in this case throat, and youn get knifed in the kidneys by psycotic wackjobs who know they probably won't get caught anyway.

The "Best" thing would have been for her to either give them the $$ or hose them down with pepper spray and escape.

if these "Crack heads" had been the leaast bit agressive, he could have gotten both himself, and her killed by escalateng the situation.

Yeah, I guess in major metros you just assume that you get involved in something like this physically or even verbally you're likely going to get killed.

[The Willow Sword]

you know its USELESS to just sit around like a bunch of football commentators and demonize and rap about "what could have happened":rolleyes:

ST told the story, THAT WAS The Outcome. The What IF's are MOOT and IRRELAVENT now. The outcome happened as it should have in this case. Case closed.

[Shaolinlueb]

crakheads deserved to get hit

[neilhytholt]

you know its USELESS to just sit around like a bunch of football commentators and demonize and rap about "what could have happened":rolleyes:

ST told the story, THAT WAS The Outcome. The What IF's are MOOT and IRRELAVENT now. The outcome happened as it should have in this case. Case closed.

It's not irrelevant because some of you seem to be patting him on the back and saying what he did was right when he obviously had the right intentions, but:

a) Showed an incredible lack of restraint.
b) Showed an incredible lack of street smarts.
c) Instigated physical violence where it wasn't necessary.
d) Put himself at extreme risk of harm.
e) Almost wound himself up in jail.

I would be remiss in my responsibilities as a concerned citizen not to point out these facts and suggest alternatives to such behavior more conducive to all parties safety.

[Royal Dragon]

a) Showed an incredible lack of restraint.
b) Showed an incredible lack of street smarts.
c) Instigated physical violence where it wasn't necessary.
d) Put himself at extreme risk of harm.
e) Almost wound himself up in jail.

Reply]
Not to mention it sounds like he left himself wide open to a stabbing by useing some dumb MMA teachnique that left him wide open for a kill, AND on top of that he was totally uin aware of the second opponent.

Life ain't the UFC where you only face an opponent one on one, on a soft matt with a ref to stop the brutality.

What he did was highly irresponsible, in that he escalated it, and did it in a totaly inept, and reckless manor that very likely could have gotten them both killed. He for being dumb enough to play out his MMA fantasies in the real world, and her for being the witness to his resulting murder....

[PangQuan]

you could get killed at any point of the day by many different ways.

its not a matter of "right" or "wrong" its simply a matter of IS

as someone mentioned he did what he did and the outcome was what it was. why fret on what could have been.

you better walk around thinking everyone wants to kill you and always wear metal plates under your clothes cause you could get mugged/killed/beaten/stabbed at any point. because that happens all the time all over the world. :rolleyes:

i say good job. i would and have done similar. im still alive. so are thousands of other. thousands are dead. you cant just tip toe around life because as the old japanese saying goes "once you step out from under the eaves, you are in deaths shadow"

of course ill be added to the list to recieve a good flaming and lecturing.

everyone dies, does it really matter how or when?

[neilhytholt]

a) Showed an incredible lack of restraint.
b) Showed an incredible lack of street smarts.
c) Instigated physical violence where it wasn't necessary.
d) Put himself at extreme risk of harm.
e) Almost wound himself up in jail.

Reply]
Not to mention it sounds like he left himself wide open to a stabbing by useing some dumb MMA teachnique that left him wide open for a kill, AND on top of that he was totally uin aware of the second opponent.

Life ain't the UFC where you only face an opponent one on one, on a soft matt with a ref to stop the brutality.

What he did was highly irresponsible, in that he escalated it, and did it in a totaly inept, and reckless manor that very likely could have gotten them both killed. He for being dumb enough to play out his MMA fantasies in the real world, and her for being the witness to his resulting murder....

These situations are extremely touchy. In fact I myself have instigated things a bit beyond which they should be because I think aggressive panhandlers are big bullies.

But rather than physical violence, use verbal assault. So if some aggressive panhandler is bothering me (and I recently did this when I was out with my brother and some guy came up to us and demanded $5), I just yell at them.

In this case, I yelled, "What the F*ck is your problem? Leave us the f*ck alone! You f*ckers are always bugging us."

This serves 2 purposes: a) shock. Most people do not yell at panhandlers. They don't know what the heck is going on.

b) suddenly everybody around knows what's going on. The perp is immediately going, "Oh, boy ... attention ... bad." This increases the chances of fear on the part of the perp because if people hear or see it increases the chance of getting caught.

I've never had an escalation with an aggressive panhandler/homeless person that was not resolved by verbal assault.

However, don't use this on aggressive crooks or muggers or you could find yourself in some serious trouble because they might kill just to get you to shut up.

[Ray Pina]

Good on ya!

There's always "what if." If you lived your life worried about the "what ifs" I'd say you wouldn't be living your life much at all.

Good job. And I'm sure if the crack head reached inside his jacket you would have controlled the arm. You controlled the situation at hand.... that's what matters.

As for the police repremanding you, I believe N.W.A. said it best: **** the police!

[PangQuan]

just ignore panhandlers if youdont have any spare change

wait for them to touch you, then drop them. dont go down with them unless you have to, immediately look for them recieving assistance.

but as always it takes better judgement and only if you feel you must should you touch anyone.

ALWAYS assess the situation before you act.

[PangQuan]

Good on ya!

There's always "what if." If you lived your life worried about the "what ifs" I'd say you wouldn't be living your life much at all.

Good job. And I'm sure if the crack head reached inside his jacket you would have controlled the arm. You controlled the situation at hand.... that's what matters.

As for the police repremanding you, I believe N.W.A. said it best: **** the police!

straight up

[neilhytholt]

just ignore panhandlers if youdont have any spare change

wait for them to touch you, then drop them. dont go down with them unless you have to, immediately look for them recieving assistance.

but as always it takes better judgement and only if you feel you must should you touch anyone.

ALWAYS assess the situation before you act.

There's 3 types of panhandlers.

a) Begs for money. Just ignore them or give them something if you feel so inclined.
b) Demands money. Follows you or tries to intimidate you into giving money. These are the ones you yell at.
c) Takes money (otherwise known as a mugger) through force usually with weapons. These are the dangerous kind.

So I agree, for (a) ignore them. (b) yell at them. (c) that's not a subject for a forum.

[PangQuan]

living in the great ol' unemployment capitol of the country, i have constant interaction with homless/panhandlers.

its generally the drug addicts that cause the problems, normal homless people can be handled quite easy if you just treat them like a normal person. because they are. they are just homeless.

its 90% attitude when dealing with aggresive people. if they get past the 10% then its possibly time to get physical.

[David Jamieson]

shyte happens.

you did the right thing, you took the correct action at that moment.
No one was seriously injured and the perps were taken away, the lady was unscathed.

Your measure of force was your measure of force. In some situations you don't have time to think about those things and you do what comes natural.

[Chief Fox]

Nice job man. It sounds like you popped the guy, put him on his back and held him there. Afterwards, he was able to get up, describe what happened and walk away with nothing hurt but maybe his feelings. You did the right thing. The only thing is, you're lucky that you didn't end up with a knife in your back. But hey, the lady is safe, you're not injured and the bum may think twice before attempting to rob someone again.

Now go back to the Batcave, you've got work to do.

[neilhytholt]

Nice job man. It sounds like you popped the guy, put him on his back and held him there. Afterwards, he was able to get up, describe what happened and walk away with nothing hurt but maybe his feelings. You did the right thing. The only thing is, you're lucky that you didn't end up with a knife in your back. But hey, the lady is safe, you're not injured and the bum may think twice before attempting to rob someone again.

Now go back to the Batcave, you've got work to do.

That is kindof funny because there was a show on T.V. last night called 'Who wants to be a Superhero' or something like that.

[SevenStar]

Reading this thread really raises questions about some of the posters here. ST stopped an innocent woman from being mugged by two bums. To be honest, it doesn't matter whether or not he yelled at them or hit them - he stopped them from harming her. Yes, I do live in a city with crackheads and bums, and I deal with them nightly at work - you do what you must. IME, if you seem even partially justified in the force that you used in a situation like ST's the cops will side with you.

Who are you guys to criticize what techniques he did or didn't use? it's always easy to criticize when you're on the outside looking in. Bottom line is that both he and the woman are safe. Obviously, he did something right.

[Radhnoti]

Good job, I think you're a hero.

You acted, which is more than many would have done. You COULD have second guessed...worried about all the "what ifs", but you made the world a better place right then and there for that lady. Enough people act like you and this world will be a better place. Thanks.

[neilhytholt]

Are we in some alternate reality where beating up on bums is now considered okay?

Not that I mind, since I've always wanted to do that since I was about 5, but last I checked it was against the law.

Just because some lady's getting hassled is no excuse to beat on people. Sorry, that's the law of the land.

Did these people show a weapon? No. Had these people hurt the woman? No. Had these people taken anything from the woman? No.

They were 'reaching for her purse' when ST beat on one of them.

So if that's considered okay now by law enforcement, please let me know, because there are an awful lot of bums that I'd like to go beat up for giving me a hard time or telling me to give them $5 and acting threatening.

[Royal Dragon]

just ignore panhandlers if youdont have any spare change

wait for them to touch you, then drop them. dont go down with them unless you have to, immediately look for them recieving assistance.

but as always it takes better judgement and only if you feel you must should you touch anyone.

ALWAYS assess the situation before you act.

Reply]
This was a better way. His biggest mistake was his incompetance in engageing. If it "Had" to get physical, then he would have been beter off hitting hard, and stepping back out keeping the injured one between him and the one still standing.

His mistakes were
1. not waiting untill she was physically assalted. At that point, when she was (not just taking a purse), he should go in after the weaker one first. Don't talk, just ambush. THEN go after the on distracted and busy attacking the woman. She may have been roughed up a bit, HOWEVER now he only has one to deal with.

2. He lost awareness of the second guy, and focused ONLY on the main attacker...I am sorry top say this is probably a product of MMA focused training, and a lack of working in multiple attacker senarios.

3. in addition to losing track of the secondary advisary, he tied himself up attempting the knee on chest technique. even if it ended up being a knee to throat (which was better IMO), he still left himself wide open to lethal attack by the secondary advisary out to protect his friend.

In the real world, careless irresponsible stunts like that get you killed. They also get your charge killed. If he is going to play bodyguard, he'd better learn to do it right.

The secondary advisary very well could have percived his throat kneel as an attempt on his partner's life, and retaliated with deadly force in an instant. there is a REASON why cops have bullet proof vests, and allways make sure they have backup.

My sugjesstion is to walk away form the MMA traning for a bit, and really work on multiple attacker drills, and multiple attacker free fighting both empty hand, and weapons fighting. At least nextime he decideds to be a hero, he won't be so wreakless about it.

Also, buy pepperspray, learn and train tactics for useing it in these senarios.

[neilhytholt]

Yeah, seriously, too much martial arts training and sparring can be bad sometimes.

I almost elbowed a co-worker in the face a while back because he banged the refrigerator door into my head.

[Royal Dragon]

You acted, which is more than many would have done. You COULD have second guessed...worried about all the "what ifs", but you made the world a better place right then and there for that lady. Enough people act like you and this world will be a better place. Thanks.

Reply]
I probably would have acted as well, just with less wreakless tactics. I carry a 25 1 sec. shot pepperspray that is cut with military grade teargas on my keys. Going in I would have made a verball warning, if they didn't back off, or worse turned their attention on me, I would have calmly hosed them down with pepperspray, and been done with it.

My method is efficent, reliable, and gets the job done with much, much, much less risk to myself, or my *Charge.

If some how I *Had* to physiclly engage empty hand, I would have used tottaly different tactics, and tried to keep the element of suprise on my side, and not let myself lose track of the secondary advisary. If anything, you need to place more awarness on that one, than the one at hand.

Sudden explosive violence, followed by MOVING out of the hot zone is the order of the day, not tieing yourself up and leaving yourself unlimitedly open to DEATH, while you knee them in the throat.

*Charge; a term sometimes used by professional bodyguards to refer to the person, or persons they are "Charged" to protect.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, seriously, too much martial arts training and sparring can be bad sometimes.

I almost elbowed a co-worker in the face a while back because he banged the refrigerator door into my head.

Reply]
I'm not saying that, I'm saying over limiting your training to one on one MMA ring fighting is not good because in a real world situation, you will do as you are trained, and unfortunety, MMA strategy will get you killed quick.
Hopefully this will be a wakeup call for him to get some more real world, multiple opponent experiance. his ring skills would have been not only useless if te secondary advisary was the least bit agressive, they left him so far open that he probably would have been killed by a knife to the kidneys...his charge would have been killed to eliminate the witness to the homicide.

My best freind is an ER nurse in Chicago...she sees this senario every day she works, useually several times a nite.

[neilhytholt]

I probably would have acted as well, just with less wreakless tactics. I carry a 25 1 sec. shot pepperspray that is cut with military grade teargas on my keys. Going in I would have made a verball warning, if they didn't back off, or worse turned their attention on me, I would have hosed them down with pepperspray, and been done with it.


Man, this is so overkill. I guess hanging out with homeless guys on the streets and bums, and my meth addict cousin maybe gives me a different perspective but with guys like this, just the fact ST was there and came up would have them backing away.

In fact he said they were backing away but one of them made a grab. Basically he should have just waited and yelled.

[Royal Dragon]

You acted, which is more than many would have done. You COULD have second guessed...worried about all the "what ifs", but you made the world a better place right then and there for that lady. Enough people act like you and this world will be a better place. Thanks.

Reply]
If he had second guessed, or thought AT ALL, maybe he would have made a better assesment of the situation, and not been so wreackless and incompetant in his actions.

He lived "This time", but through no fault of his own.

If you are going to do it, do it right, do it safe as possible, and do it smart!

[Royal Dragon]

In fact he said they were backing away but one of them made a grab. Basically he should have just waited and yelled.

Reply]
That falls under "verbal warning". And you are right, if that is all that is needed, then no need to spray them.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ the “martial artists” here that are giving ST grief for stopping a crime. I can see “artist” is the operant word here.

ST- great job…

You stepped in when a woman was being harassed. You escalated to the appropriate level when he committed a crime by grabbing for the purse. You needed to put him down fast and for good based on the threat potential of the second guy. I’m guessing most juries would find that to be appropriate force for the situation.

Although clueless idjuts like RD will tell you otherwise, the knee ride was a good tactical choice (although a better one could have been to take the woman and leave the scene immediately) - great for control and mobility and for keeping you from being too committed to securing the assailant. Your only mistake was losing sight of the second guy. This was a probably a good learning experience to help you avoid something like that in the future.

I'm betting anyone with a wife, sister, girlfriend, or mother thinks you did a pretty good thing.

[Radhnoti]

RD - "...If he had second guessed, or thought AT ALL, maybe he would have made a better assesment of the situation, and not been so wreackless and incompetant in his actions."

Or maybe he'd have been paralyzed with shock as the unpredictable crack-head pulled out a knife to cut the purse strap, and when the lady resisted he stabbed her in the stomach. He stepped up and protected the lady with what I ALWAYS hear "self defense experts" saying, the FIRST strike when the confrontation becomes inevitable.
Forgetting the other guy might have been a mistake, or MAYBE since he saw that the guy was backing up he made a (possibly subconscious) tactical decision that he had the luxury of focusing on the aggressive guy for a bit. The world needs more people willing to act for the good of others, us second-guessing the whole thing seems, to me, like ignoring the massively GOOD thing he did by trying to help. Should someone with NO pepper spray walk away from helping someone who needs it just because they're underprepared? I hope not...in a chaotic situation you fight with what ya brought. In ST's case it was MMA, and good for him.

On a slightly different tangent here, it's somewhat disturbing (to me) that so many people feel it's a victim's RESPONSIBILITY to give up the property. Yeah, I know it's the SMART thing...but it galling to think that this is how citizens in our modern world are expected to act. It just kind of creates, to my mind, a society of pushovers where these thugs know everyone's a victim when they decide to make their move.
I live 30-45 minutes away from any sort of police response, if everyone out here followed these rules it'd be a free ride for any thugs who felt like making a quick buck.

[Mr Punch]

Good job ST. :)

Knee on (somewhere) was a good choice I think. It enables you to keep at least partially upright and to view the rest of the situation, and what's more, in this case it was just what you needed to take control of the situation. That makes it perfect.

Of course it's more than a bit worrying that you didn't notice what the other guy was doing, but I've had a few hairy moments where I've completely lost the plot in these sits. That's where experience comes in: not saying that you want many more of those kind of experiences though! :D

Neil, you're saying 'yell' but bottom line is; if some pair of crackhead bums (or since you don't seem to like the labelling let's say, a pair of upright citizens) had just grabbed your daughter's bag, would you yell at them? You don't know until you're in the situation right? But if it were me, I'd probably be inclined to want to jump up and down on them until their eyes bled. So, I think knee-on-throat was the model of restraint.

[Mr Punch]

Forgetting the other guy might have been a mistake, or MAYBE since he saw that the guy was backing up he made a (possibly subconscious) tactical decision that he had the luxury of focusing on the aggressive guy for a bit. ...That's true... I'm pretty sure I've made a few of those. Or I'm a dozy twat - hard to tell sometimes! :D

[rogue]

Good for you ST. Not what I would have done but I wasn't there and you were. I think you made some tactical mistakes but that's what happens in the real world, and anybody can make them regardless of their training . Big props for stepping up and helping someone.

Cops do not like civilians to get involved in any crime. IME For all they see most cops are clueless to how a civilian should protect themselves, and I'll be darn if I depend on them when I see trouble. I'm not against cops at all but I do know that during a crime time matters.


If he was to intervne at all, the best thing to do is hose them down with pepper spray and call the cops. forget the movie hero stuff, it's tooo dangerous.

RD, in training have you ever taken a face full of commercial pepper spray while being the attacker? You might change your mind on it's value. Wind, rain, clothing and many other factors can reduce the effectiveness of PS.

[neilhytholt]

Some of you guys are so full of crap it's unbelievable.

You don't seem to realize ST could get into serious trouble for this.

Believe me, if everybody could just beat down every bum hassling people the world would probably be a better place, but the laws don't work that way.

But if you wind up in jail for or worse, injured or dead, for beating down a punk you'll find out what happened.

The cop was right. A) ST is a hero for getting involved. B) He was wrong to beat down on the guy.

Read your law enforcement manuals and check with your lawyers if you don't believe me.

[Royal Dragon]

Sure, he had good controll of the FIRST assailent, but not the second.

He just as quick could have gotten himself killed, as not. It was beyond his controll at that point. You guys may like to congrats the hero, but the truth is he took wreakless risks with his own life, and hers.

Maybe if he had thrown the guy on his head, Shui Qiao style, instead of going down and kneeing him in the throat and holding him I wouldn't be criticizing him, but he didn't, he did something very stupid, and foolish.

if he was going to play hero, that is all fine. I agree we need more of that in this world, but to take stupid foolish chances, sorry, no way.

I seem to remeber giving props to Money Slap a few years ago for steping in in a similar situation. Why him, and Not ST? because he did it right, and didn't take foolish chances and severly endangering himself by doing stupid extremely hi risk techniques.


The real world in NOT the Octagon. You MMA freaks need to learn that.

[The Xia]

As I said before, he gambled with his life. Yes they did turn out to be crackhead hobos, but they could have just as easily been on meth. The second guy not attacking was quite a stroke of fortune as well. While the knee on throat technique was executed, bum # 2 could have thrust a knife into the back, pulled out a pistol and shot, there are too many possibilities. Heres another worst case scenario. As he walks up to them they freak, take out weapons and "go nuts". Overall, the way the incident unfolded was pure luck. Yes he did help someone and that is commendable, but for us and him to ignore the risks taken is foolish.

[The Willow Sword]

Neil is so full of sh!t!! Hahaha he is just intentionally being antagonistic in this thread. He Prolly totally Agrees with what ST did and is just being a sh!tHead as per usual:rolleyes:
now watch him counter this with more BS. i mean it IS kinda funny how Neil is approaching all of this. If in fact he is just screwing around. it is funny that there are actually Martial Artists out there that train as hardcore as Neil does:rolleyes: who will stand in the Middle of a group watching a fight and say " you guys are going to get hurt". OR after the fight is over they will stand and say "you know this was against the law and if there was a cop around you guys would have been in BIG trouble:rolleyes: .:p :D

in middle school we used to make newspaper bullets and get thick rubber bands and shoot those nerds in the back whilst they gathered their science books at their lockers. Boy that was fun, those were the days.:D :p

wacka wacka wackaaa,,TWS

[Mr Punch]

Good job ST.

Knee on (somewhere) was a good choice I think. It enables you to keep at least partially upright and to view the rest of the situation, and what's more, in this case it was just what you needed to take control of the situation. That makes it perfect.

Of course it's more than a bit worrying that you didn't notice what the other guy was doing, but I've had a few hairy moments where I've completely lost the plot in these sits. That's where experience comes in: not saying that you want many more of those kind of experiences though!

I just got a strange feeling of deja vu! :D

Of course we all make mistakes but in the end it came good so congrats, and hope you learned some things from it.

Neil, you didn't seem to like or indeed answer my question so here it is again: you're saying 'yell' but bottom line is; if some pair of crackhead bums had just grabbed your daughter's bag, would you just yell at them? You don't know until you're in the situation right?

BE-CAUSE... if it were me, I'd probably be inclined to want to jump up and down on them until their eyes bled. So, I think knee-on-throat was the model of restraint.

[Anthony]

"but the mouthy guy tried to grab at the woman's purse. I grabbed his jacket (only crackheads wear jackets in the summer right?) and threw a right cross and hit him on the chin. "

I think that this part of the story is the key to whether or not you acted hastily or in good judgement. I don't think we have enough details to make statements like this......"You needed to put him down fast and for good......."

It all amounts to how agressive the homeless guys were being. And, whether or not, in your opinion, you and the woman could have gotten away without you beating the guy up. Ethics and the law require you to think of these things during a situation.

Everyone here is arguing this point but really, youre the only one who can answer that because you were in the situation. Are you a hothead? Do you react much faster than you think? Do you believe in "excessive force" and to what extent? Many MA guys are quick to trade punches because that's what they train for.

Did he have a grip on the woman's purse where she couldn't get away? If not, do you think you and the woman could have just gotten away from them? They may not have even followed you. Did you try screaming at them first or verbally threatening them with violence if they didn't back off.

Alot of people are mentioning that he could have had a weapon in his jacket. If he didn't actually go for a weapon or reach into his jacket you would be wrong to assume that he has on and beat him up for it.

Aren't we taught that in a robbery it's smarter to just let the robber have what they want. Sure having a purse stolen is an inconvenience, but is it worth getting into an exchange with a druggie who might have a weapon or a disease? You thought enough to assume he was a crack-head, did you think about getting Aids from him when you punched him in the face?

I'm just throwing this out for the sake of discussion. I don't judge you because I wasn't there. I commend you for going to help someone. I know that things are different when they are actually happening but....the fact of life is that when you are in a situation, you have to be able to read the situation. We all know that homeless people can be aggressive but harmless, and we all know that they are on the news every now and again for hurting someone.

I think you have to do some soul searching to see if you agree with the cop or not.

[Hau Tien]

You obviously must have never lived in any major city to think that ST did the correct thing.

Assaulting a homeless person is NOT the correct thing. If they're giving some woman a hard time (and they were not assaulting her, just messing with her verbally and grabbing at her purse), then you should go over and YELL at them, tell them to back off.

But what ST did was go up to the guy and start beating on him.

Basically what ST did was wrong in the eyes of the law and could land him in jail. In addition, if this occurrence really did happen, he blabbed about it on a public forum, which could be used in evidence in court of his wrong doing.

Not saying I don't morally support what he did. IMHO those guys should have been beaten up. But legally you cannot use that kind of force if they're just hassling somebody. That's called being a vigilante and is frowned on in the eyes of the law.


Oh, come off it. My goodness. Some slimey crackheads were hassling a woman for her purse and one of them got clocked for it. As SOON as they touched the woman, physical means were used, and that's obviously reasonable. No one was seriously hurt (including said crackheads). Someone COULD have been hurt, yes... but that's a danger you face every time you deal with these people.

*I* live in a major city with several sections exactly like what ST described. My girlfriend's office is located in one such section. I'd do EXACTLY what he did (except maybe pay more attention to the buddy ;) ) in that sort of situation.

To tell people that they shouldn't intervene when they see this **** happening only allows it to happen more. That's what those crackheads rely on... no one will say or do anything for fear of having to get involved. That's garbage... people need to get some spine back.

Kudos, ST.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I just want to clarify a few things.

1. they were not asking her for change. before I got there they backed her into the corner of the lot beside her car and threatened to kill her and demanded her purse.

2. When I say "reached for her purse" the guy actually had his hand on her purse strap when I grabbed him.

While I did lose sight of guy #2 for a few seconds after I got the guy under control I looked up and saw him and kept my eyes on him the rest of the time. He might have been out of my sight for 10 seconds or so (which i understand would have been time enough to fire a gun) but there was no way he was walking around to approach me in the back which was the open land of the parking lot.

I do understand that what I did could have been much worse. I could have ran over there and got shot. boom dead. but the truth is that I saw a woman and she needed help and I reacted. I didn't think and right or wrong what I did was what I felt was the right thing to do. I didn't continue to hit him after I got him to the ground because he wasn't resisting enough to harm anyone.

[Royal Dragon]

It's good that you recognise your errors. Are you going to adjust your training to be better prepared to handle the next situation?

[charyuop]

Sorry, but I am a little more drastic. In those situation it is a life matter, no kidding matter.
Next time don't hold the first on the ground. Break something (even a finger is enough sometimes to let him stay down in pain) and go quick for the second. In these days weapons are as common as water, giving a chance to draw one might mean your death.
As per the law I am sure the woman would have confirmed your words saying that they attacked you first and you were just defending yourself.

Wiser thing was breaking something to both of them (or knock them out) and run away...you never know they might have belonged to a gang and being surrounded by them is no laughing.

This position might be against all the Masters/Sifu/Sensei theories and teaching...but you got only one life to live. If you go into a street fight (better always avoid them) make sure you get out alive.

Just my 2 cents.

[Anthony]

"In those situation it is a life matter, no kidding matter."

Well, the first post, which everyone is arguing and calling each other names over, did not make that clear enough. It was kind of vague as to how grave the situation was and I think different people put their own slant on it (given their own experiences).

This post brings up a good subject........legality and ethics and necessary force, right vs. wrong thing to do in the eyes of the law, etc..... Unfortunately, it seems most people here avoid the intelligent, productive aspect of discussion in favor of the "I'm right...youre full of it" type of pointless argument.

Too bad, because it seems a very relevant subject for us as Martial Artists in a modern society.

[The Willow Sword]

As most of us here have already clarified several times, In the life and death situation or in any confrontation where you are in jeapoardy of losing your life or getting seriously mamed, or you are helping to save someone elses life etc etc. You arent stopping to consider if this is legal in the eyes of the law. it is STUPID to even try to think like that when something is going down. It breeds a level of hesitation that will get your a$$ KILLED. because The attacker and the crackheads arent thinking about "well gee uhh is this wrong of me to do, will i get into trouble with tha cops":rolleyes:

WE ARE SO BRAINWASHED THESE DAYS. The MAN really DOES have a Hold on our psyches. we cant take a cr@p these days without having to stop and think if this is legal or am i going to get in trouble or not:mad: .

Hey you think that the Firefighters and policemen who died in 9-11 trying to rescue those people in the towers were thinking "boy i may get hurt" or " gee this is violating the rules of whatever reality some suit in a think tank came up with as against the order of things?"

NO, They ACTED and Reacted and gave the gift of SELF SACRIFICE to see that others were safe. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT ST DID and he shoudlnt be burnt at the stake for it or scolded..
If We had read in the papers that ST had been Killed trying to save that woman those of you who are being goody fukin two shoes would be praising him as a hero and shedding a tear rather than belittling the fact that he HELPED SAVE AND
PROTECT A LIFE.
god D@MN you people are dense!!!:mad:

Shaolin Tiger? Screw what the detratcors are saying in here, YOU DID the RIGHT thing.

TWS

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

props buddy. you did a good thing and im sure that woman really appreciates it. i wonder how many people she's told about you in the past few days.

royal dragon .... you bring up some valid points, but your kinda being a d!ck about it.

[charyuop]

Was she pretty? :p
If yes think about offering her self defence lessons for free :D

[Anthony]

Willow....at the risk of getting into an argument with you , it seems that you didn't read or really get my posts fully.

Point 1)

"In the life and death situation...." We didn't really know whether it was or not, that's why I said we needed more info. I think people assumed it either was or wasn't and then began arguing. Maybe he didn't have time to discern that and maybe he did. We don't know.

Point 2)

"we cant take a cr@p these days without having to stop and think if this is legal or am i going to get in trouble or not . " I'm not disputing this. We actually agree on it. I'm just saying that it's the reality, hence..."Ethics and the law require you to think of these things during a situation." Don't miss my point, there's a difference between what's righteous and what simply IS. The law is the law and we're subject to it....good or bad. It's for ST to decide whether he could have thought or done anything differently, not you or me. That's why I said he really has to come to that conclusion himself.


It's not just getting in legal trouble that I'm thinking about. What about preserving you own life. I'm not saying "be a coward," but when do you decide if you can actually help or if you are powerless to do so. I guess a true "hero" doesn't think about it but should they? I mean it's just a different point of view. For every fallen hero there's a widow and fatherless children. At what point do you think about them when your rushing to save another? I think one shouldn't blindly be a hero. There's a line between suicide and heroism (I don't personally know what it is and I'm not making a veiled reference to 9-11). Again, it would make a good discussion if people could avoid arguing.

I'm not scolding anyone and I hope I don't sound like I am. I commend ST for his heroic action. But, we're just having a discussion about it (after all, he posted it for us to discuss it). It's not a big deal. People shoudn't get so worked up over it. Everyone has a valid point, I'm not saying you don't. I'm just offering a different perspective.

In the end, I don't know. Willow, it's not for you and me to personally go at it because of this. We were not involved and are just discussing based on what little we know.

ST, just curious, what do you think?

[chud]

Good job ST, you did the right thing.

[Knifefighter]

It's good that you recognise your errors. Are you going to adjust your training to be better prepared to handle the next situation?
The MMA approach is the ideal training methodology to "adjust his training", assuming he wants a bit more of a street/weapon orientation. A couple of tweaks here and there, and he's good to go.

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, i think if you were to maybe bring a number of kempo multi attacker drills into an MMA format, you would be right. I know UFC veteran Keith Hackney comes from a Kempo school that has just what the doctor ordered for these types of senarios.

I think the old Chicago based Green Dragon society has these also.

It would be more than a couple of tweaks though. MMA mostly focuses on single, one on one ring fighting with refs, and soft mats to play on. As is, it's way too grappeling, ground orientd to be useful at all. It would be a total revamping of the training enviroment. The mentality, imposed on a totally different skill, and strategy set would be needed.

You would need to find one of the more hard core reality based schools I think. A standard MMA gym is going to be too ring focused to be any good for this. The tactics, and strategy taught are to counter to what is needed in a reality based method.

ST's MMA experiance clearly failed him here. He charged in and acted as if he was in the ring. He didn't even remotely consider the proper strategy, or possible variables, like weapons, multiple attackers, or even that the two may have had thier boys hidden just outside of site and this was an initiation for two newbies looking to join a gang. If THAT had been the case, he could have found hiself surrounded by 20 guys ready to kill for lust and fun in a blink.

How does MMA, that specialises in One, On One ring fighting, saftely controlled by the refs, even remotely prepare someone for this? Seems like his experiance caused him to use some really delusionary tactics that are generally considered suicidal by the pro's.

How are you going to "Tweak" an MMA gym and get a dramatically different result? If you want a dramatically different result, you need a dramatically different training enviroment. After all, we fight like we train...that is the montra, right?

[Flying-Monkey]

You touched a bum????:eek:

[rogue]

ST's MMA experiance clearly failed him here.

He's not dead, injured or in jail, the victim was saved and the poips placed in the back of a squad car. Where did ST's skills fail him? While what he did may not be "correct" in some textbook, he made it through the situation, the victim made it through and even the poip made it through. That's not failure.

Were there other and better ways to handle the situation? I'd say yes, but ST was there and we weren't, and it was his skills that carried the day.

No failure, ST is the Kung Fu Hero for his encounter.

[The Xia]

You touched a bum????:eek:
:D ROTFL :D

[rogue]

second, as far as the legality of it, no one knows what the actual statues are in his municipality governing use of appropriate force, etc.

Something that every self-defense guru better be aware of. In most places what ST did was fine, but if he had gone into some ground and pound he could have been joining the other two guys in the back of a squad car. I have a permit to carry a concealed handgun, and in order to get that I had to learn all about appropriate use of force. If a class is offered in appropriate use of force in your area make it your business to take it.

[Shaolinlueb]

i dont know whats worse, crakheads or some of the trolls on this board.

[Banjos_dad]

well you know how it is on the forums. everyone is always correct. :rolleyes:
the woman's kids and or husband are grateful to ST00. Anyone who wants to take up for two crackheads who want to steal from a solitary, un athletic woman certainly has the right to. <--assh@ts... And to someone who would say 'anyone who would do that obviously never lived in a major city,' your cranium is just as obviously packed with horse manure. I have lived in major AND minor cities. There is a time to hold back, but there is also a time to attack, and a trained fighter recognizes it when it arrives.
a kung fu man comes to the aid of the righteous. that's a big part of the definition of martial virtue. you did the right thing IMO although in today's legal climate you did expose yourself to prosecution. I am sure the cops were not unhappy to see a lumped up familiar crackhead thief instead of the usual lumped up victimized woman, for once. They probably wish they could just beat the crap out of someone sometimes instead of treat them with kid gloves as they are legally obligated to do.

and maybe that thieving b1tch will be a little too sore around the head area to return to harassing helpless solitary women for a couple of weeks, which potentially benefits many other would be victims.

anyone who takes up for thieves and muggers, what if your mother or grandmother was in this situation and i was there... would you want me to just stand there watching her get terrorized or would you want the robbery to be delayed or prevented? I would try to help her out. get off st00, he did the right thing. If there were enough cops around or if we could actually keep thieves off the streets then he wouldn't have had to get involved at all but we are living in a world where bad things often happen to people who ave done nothing to deserve it.

[rogue]

From my experience cops don't mind find a theiving cr@ckhead spawled on the sidewalk but they prefer not to see someone doing a knee ride on him. A cop showing up on the scene doesn't know anything about what is going on. The first thing he can see is an assault in progress. Even if you are the hero Mr Policeman is not your friend and you certainly aren't his, he's a guy who just wants to make it home and you are just another person in his way. Recently a guy wrestled the gun from some perp who was robbing him, he was shot dead by the first cop on the scene who just saw some guy with a drawn gun.
Ms Prosecuter isn't your friend either and if the perp squacks enough may bring charges against you for using undo force, and/or find some shyster to take you to civil court for the same.

Personally if the cop took my name down in the report I'd contact good criminal and civil lawyers and have their phone numbers with me.

[Radhnoti]

Rogue - "Personally if the cop took my name down in the report I'd contact good criminal and civil lawyers and have their phone numbers with me."

My nephew moved to the "big city" of Louisville to attend school, his moving in night he ran across a guy setting fire to a truck near his apartment. He and his roomie ran and put it out, then flagged down a cop and gave a description of the guy (who ran off as they approached). They also had to sit around and wait for a fire marshall to show to tell their story to hours later. They went home satisfied that they were good citizens.
Fast forward 2 weeks, a Jaguar a block up goes up in flames. My nephew and his roommate get back from class and the cops had KICKED IN THE DOOR to their apartment (no warrant, no permission or key). Every drawer had been opened, every video had been looked at, even the mattress had been removed and looked under. They took the harddrives from their computers to the station along with our two upright citizens and made copies to review later. Seems the only info the police had about cars on fire in the area had their names on it. My nephews truck has flame decals on it, one cop says, "Yeah, those flames on your truck show what's on your mind ya F@ckin' pyro." :rolleyes: They were grilled at the station for FOUR hours before my nephew asked if they were being charged and if not he was going home. They had to WALK home (they knew no one in town at that time) since they'd been thrown in the back of the cruiser to get to the station. The police CONTINUED to hassle them until we contacted the legal representation at their school. He said he would handle it, a couple of police came and apologized not long after when they caught the guy...who looked just like their description.
Worst part of this whole thing, my nephew tells me, "That is the LAST time I try to help out, next time I walk away."
And who can blame him?

[neilhytholt]

Worst part of this whole thing, my nephew tells me, "That is the LAST time I try to help out, next time I walk away."
And who can blame him?

Hate to say it, but you should probably always walk away. When I was a kid onetime we were walking home from a party, and ran into a bunch of taggers tagging the library. We chased them away and one of our friends called the cops.

The cops proceeded to question US as to why we were out at 11:30 at night, and proceeded to accuse US as to why we were tagging ... (we weren't, we just happened on the taggers) ...

I had a friend who beat up a mugger who was taking some woman's purse, and then he got drug into court and got charged with assault and got 30 days.

Basically like I said previous, ST was lucky not to get in trouble. Vigilante (otherwise known as concerned citizen) justice went away a long time ago.

Just walk away and call 911.

[rogue]

I don't believe in always walking away, you just have to know the repercussions of getting involved. The average martial artists has a very innocent view of how the world works and that can get someone in trouble. I'm permitted by state law to carry a concealed weapon, but I know that little cardboard permit means nothing to some civilian or cop to whom I'm just some guy with a gun under his jacket.

The way I'm trained getting the perp in a control or submission hold and waiting for the cops is one of the last things that I want to do as I don't want to be tied up at his crime scene. My first choice would be to incapacitate the perp and get the victim to safety. That's my first choice but I can imagine myself ending up with someone in a control, and counting the minutes it takes the cops to get there.

[neilhytholt]

I don't believe in always walking away, you just have to know the repercussions of getting involved. The average martial artists has a very innocent view of how the world works and that can get someone in trouble. I'm permitted by state law to carry a concealed weapon, but I know that little cardboard permit means nothing to some civilian or cop to whom I'm just some guy with a gun under his jacket.

The way I'm trained getting the perp in a control or submission hold and waiting for the cops is one of the last things that I want to do as I don't want to be tied up at his crime scene. My first choice would be to incapacitate the perp and get the victim to safety. That's my first choice but I can imagine myself ending up with someone in a control, and counting the minutes it takes the cops to get there.

You know, last week (can't remember if it was Tuesday or Wednesday) night, around 3:00 in the morning, the neighbors house alarm went off...

First thing I did, of course, was check our alarm (there's a console in the master bedroom) to see if anybody entered. Second, I grabbed the glock from under the bed (I bring it out every night from the combo safe that's hidden in the floorboard, then put it back the next morning. I installed it myself and nobody knows it's there, not even the kids).

Then I sat tight and waited to see what happened ... waited ... cops came, lights and all, but nothing happened.

But you know what? Even if the neighbors were getting massacred by guys with shotguns, I wouldn't have done anything. I'd have gotten the kids to a safer area of the house so they didn't get hit by any stray fire and just sat it out.

I guess maybe I'm a coward but that just seems to be the way things work these days. A sign of the times. :)

Edit ... I mean, basically, if I'm out with the kids and somebody's getting in trouble, hate to say it, but I'm walking away.

If I'm out alone I might do something but I have more than myself to think about now. I have to think what my kids will do if I get killed trying to help somebody.

I guess I'm just a big coward ... a big coward.

[kwaichang]

Well TWS I dont believe it we actually agree on something. As far as the persons behavour. Yo Go for it you hesitate that woman could have been killed or worse. Hell the stupid Judges issue restraining orders for less than that. The problem with todays society is they worry about the law too much. The law protects those who follow it not those who are victims of it. One must be willing to die for what they believe and freedom. The law is the perp here if you are too scared to do what is right because the LAW doesnt say it is right, then the criminals are the politicians making these stupid laws. KC

[rogue]

Edit ... I mean, basically, if I'm out with the kids and somebody's getting in trouble, hate to say it, but I'm walking away.

I guess I'm just a big coward ... a big coward.

Then count me as one also. My first duty is the safety of my family and if I heard something going down at a neighbors or came across someone in trouble I'd do the same as you. I am the protector of my family and that is my first priorty. If I could get them to safety then I'd go help.

[neilhytholt]

Then count me as one also. My first duty is the safety of my family and if I heard something going down at a neighbors or came across someone in trouble I'd do the same as you. I am the protector of my family and that is my first priorty. If I could get them to safety then I'd go help.

The thing is, I just don't have enough guns. My uncle's always getting on my case because I don't have enough guns, but where am I supposed to put them?

He's got 3 safes, and a walk-in safe. But I'm just too afraid my kids are going to figure out the combo because I always knew where my dad hid his guns, and even my mom didn't know he had any.

I guess when they're a bit older then I can take them out shooting but they're 6 and 8 now, and even though I went out shooting when I was that age, I'm just afraid if I do something like that, the ex will use it against me somehow.

The rest of my family has everything from shotguns to fully automatic machine guns (several members of my family have this license like class 3 or something), and all I have is a Glock. It's pretty pathetic.

[Royal Dragon]

Then count me as one also. My first duty is the safety of my family and if I heard something going down at a neighbors or came across someone in trouble I'd do the same as you. I am the protector of my family and that is my first priorty. If I could get them to safety then I'd go help.

Reply]
Well said!

[neilhytholt]

Then count me as one also. My first duty is the safety of my family and if I heard something going down at a neighbors or came across someone in trouble I'd do the same as you. I am the protector of my family and that is my first priorty. If I could get them to safety then I'd go help.

Reply]
Well said!

What do you think about training your kids with guns, though? I'm a little bit out of my league on this one.

All my cousins and I got trained from a very early age (like from about 4 or 5 with pellet guns), as our family did a lot of hunting, but now with this new generation I'm a bit reticent to get my kids involved with guns. (I haven't taken them shooting yet, and the oldest is 8).

In fact, my uncle (the patriarch on my dad's side) is actually pretty p*ssed off at me now. My older cousins' kids are all proficient already now.

In fact my youngest oldest cousin's kid is 10 and he can already hit a bullseye pretty consistently with a bow from 100 feet.

I don't even have a rifle or shotgun in the house. Pretty pathetic, isn't it?

[neilhytholt]

Actually, you know, I think I have waited too long.

I'm going to have to go up to Lookout with the kids so they can shoot.

Not having some bigger guns is definitely a liability especially when the neighbors houses are getting broken into like the other day. Tomorrow it could be our house, and a Glock just isn't a good home protection weapon.

Edit ... I mean, look at this guy. 6 when he fired his first M-16. No wonder my uncle is so mad at me.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060730/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_the_marksman

[SevenStar]

Sure, he had good controll of the FIRST assailent, but not the second.

He just as quick could have gotten himself killed, as not. It was beyond his controll at that point. You guys may like to congrats the hero, but the truth is he took wreakless risks with his own life, and hers.

Maybe if he had thrown the guy on his head, Shui Qiao style, instead of going down and kneeing him in the throat and holding him I wouldn't be criticizing him, but he didn't, he did something very stupid, and foolish.

if he was going to play hero, that is all fine. I agree we need more of that in this world, but to take stupid foolish chances, sorry, no way.

I seem to remeber giving props to Money Slap a few years ago for steping in in a similar situation. Why him, and Not ST? because he did it right, and didn't take foolish chances and severly endangering himself by doing stupid extremely hi risk techniques.


The real world in NOT the Octagon. You MMA freaks need to learn that.

1. he didn't go down and knee him in the throat. He had him in knee on belly - well, in this case, knee on throat - position. get your lingo right before you criticize anything.

2. How many people have you saved recently?

3. get rid of your pepper spray... it probably sucks. get fox or freeze. Judging by the nature of this thread, I should ridicule you for using anything less and thinking that it would be super effective.

[Finny]

He did the right thing.

None of you were there - he was.

1. The folks harping on about the whole "he took his attention away from the second guy" seem to forget that there was a first guy. You have to deal with what you've got - deal with the first guy, and keep track of the second guy - which ST100 said he did, for the most part.

We don't know if that means he took his eyes off him for a split second, or whether that means he completely ignored him and forgot he existed, whether he was aware of his immediate surroundings and that's why he noticed him after a while... we just don't know cos we weren't there.

2. Going on about "asking for change doesn't deserve a beatdown" - what are you - idiots?

They weren't asking for change - they were physically assaulting this woman, threatening her life (verbally) and grabbing at her.

In response, one of them got smacked in the mouth and knelt on for a while.

Thats not some innocent homeless person getting a 'beatdown' - thats a punk mugger getting popped in the mouth.

Ignore these fools ST100 - you did good.

Perhaps next time maintain a bit more awareness of the potential for second and third (fourth etc.) attackers, but other than that - spot on.

And RD - he didn't have pepper spray, and if he did, as a few other folks said - weather conditions, drugs and clothing affect the effectiveness of pepper spray considerably. He could (likely would) have ended up affecting himself and the woman in question with the spray.

He did the right thing - get off his back and stop thinking you'd have done any better.

[rogue]

The thing is, I just don't have enough guns.

Bad thinking IMO. The gun is just another tool, do not become dependent on it or think it's your only weapon. I have several friends with class 3s, you must have interesting relatives.

Let's look at this from a real world view point:

Originally Posted by Royal Dragon
Sure, he had good controll of the FIRST assailent, but not the second.


True, and it could have gone bad, but it didn't. Ask yourself why?


He just as quick could have gotten himself killed, as not. It was beyond his controll at that point. You guys may like to congrats the hero, but the truth is he took wreakless risks with his own life, and hers.

Life is full of risk and we are never in full control of any situation. ST made a choice, IMO the correct one, and acted on it. He got involved in someone elses trouble and at possible risk to his own life helped someone. He is a hero.


Maybe if he had thrown the guy on his head, Shui Qiao style, instead of going down and kneeing him in the throat and holding him I wouldn't be criticizing him, but he didn't, he did something very stupid, and foolish.

If he did that there is a good chance that he would then be using his MMA skills to not get butt raped. When he got involved he was not in danger the woman was. Ms Prosecutor would love to knock some ring fighting caveman down a few notches and add something to her resume.


if he was going to play hero, that is all fine. I agree we need more of that in this world, but to take stupid foolish chances, sorry, no way.

How was it foolish?


I seem to remeber giving props to Money Slap a few years ago for steping in in a similar situation. Why him, and Not ST? because he did it right, and didn't take foolish chances and severly endangering himself by doing stupid extremely hi risk techniques.

Once again, he made it through the encounter, as did the victim and even the perps. Hi risk yes, not something I would do but it worked and that's what matters in the real world.



The real world in NOT the Octagon. You MMA freaks need to learn that.

Don't get personal, it is stupid, foolish and will get you into needless trouble.

[Mr Punch]

The real world in NOT the Octagon. You MMA freaks need to learn that.One more thing to all you who think something like this...

This is the real world. ST won, rescued someone, got away unscathed and without damaging the attackers, and the attackers were nicked. Sounds like in my real world, this is right result.

It has nothing to do with MMA and you brought up the irrelevant sport fighting nonsense.

[Knifefighter]

ST's MMA experiance clearly failed him here.
Really???
Let's see, he helped out a woman who was in the process of being mugged...
He held one of the guys under control until the police arrived...
Nobody got hurt..
That's failure???
What Bizarro world do you live in?


How are you going to "Tweak" an MMA gym and get a dramatically different result?
Simple, just do the same as many people with MMA backgrounds are doing.
Throw weapons, multiple opponents, and different types of training scenarios into the mix.
Pretty much the same training model with just a few modifications.



How does MMA, that specialises in One, On One ring fighting, saftely controlled by the refs, even remotely prepare someone for this?
How does pretending to fight in the safely controlled environment of the training studio with the instructor keeping anyone from going too hard, and discouraging people from going to the ground to learn how to effectively deal with that environment, “even remotely prepare someone for this?”

[David Jamieson]

In my opinion, people who have not experienced really being hit or really hitting cannot relate plain and simple. They have no point of reference.

Any school can provide this level of experience regardless of style or goal, most don't for a variety of reasons ranging from insurance, to non commital from students and lack of knowledge in instructors etc etc etc etc.

I don't understand why people have a problem with smacking a crackhead out when he's trying to commit a crime. wtf? Dude's lucky he can still complain in my opinion.

[KC Elbows]

I don't care about the crackhead, I just think if someone you know is going to be alone in an area with crackheads and crime, and they don't carry some sort of weapon, they need to reconsider that, and ought to be told that along with any "congratulaions for what you did".

As for the whole tma/cma thing, it has nothing to do with this, those are broad spectrums, different schools from different approaches may have more in common than different in how they train this kind of thing: they may not really train it at all.

[neilhytholt]

Bad thinking IMO. The gun is just another tool, do not become dependent on it or think it's your only weapon. I have several friends with class 3s, you must have interesting relatives.


Well my Uncle was an army officer, then retired, but he was always extremely into guns. They always did a lot of hunting, and he did his own reloads, tied his own flies for fishing all that stuff.

My dad is the outcast because my mom never allowed any of that stuff around the house. My dad was whipped ... still is whipped. LOL

So even though I hung out with my cousins, I was kindof the outcast by proxy. Never quite up to their level on anything.

So when I tell them all I have is a pistol they always laugh and think it's a big joke.

When I went to college and there were a lot of people against guns, I always assumed they meant against machine guns or against too many guns (too many being like more than 50). Finally at one drunken college night with the head of the anti-gun movement on campus, he finally drilled it into my head they were against all guns.

I literally couldn't believe it. I mean, guns are a second amendment right. That was a pretty funny conversation.

[David Jamieson]

To be against guns is like being against footware.

It's senseless.

pandoras box is open, you can't put stufff back in, you have to deal with it.
anti gun people at the extreme end of the spectrum generally can't see much further than their own hand in front of them anyway and their argument won't withstand the pressure of common sense.

[neilhytholt]

To be against guns is like being against footware.

It's senseless.

pandoras box is open, you can't put stufff back in, you have to deal with it.
anti gun people at the extreme end of the spectrum generally can't see much further than their own hand in front of them anyway and their argument won't withstand the pressure of common sense.

Yeah, I never much understood that. I was raised by my non-immediate family as moderates, meaning pro-guns, pro-abortion rights, pro-environment, basically let people do their own stuff (uncle used to say sh*t). LOL

So when I got to school and the whole liberal thing, it was kindof funny because I'd go on the environmental studies treks, then when we got to the lake, pull out my pole to do some fishing ... the hippies used to hate that stuff. But they were too stoned to ever really get mad about it.

[Ray Pina]

As I said before, he gambled with his life. Yes they did turn out to be crackhead hobos, but they could have just as easily been on meth. The second guy not attacking was quite a stroke of fortune as well. While the knee on throat technique was executed, bum # 2 could have thrust a knife into the back, pulled out a pistol and shot, there are too many possibilities. Heres another worst case scenario. As he walks up to them they freak, take out weapons and "go nuts". Overall, the way the incident unfolded was pure luck. Yes he did help someone and that is commendable, but for us and him to ignore the risks taken is foolish.

Everything you say is true, but .... it's lucky for us that the sun hangs in the sky. Lucky you left for work when you did and missed the accident that could have killed you. You gambled with your life every time you sparred, played softball, didn't chew your steak well enough, use too much salt.

Yes, this was a a bigger risk. But I'm sure this woman was glad he had the balls to take it inteas of turning his head and walking away. Sounds like you and a few others are better trained than most of us and would have had the cool, calculated presence of mind to hit the deck and roll behind a car for cover, pull out your cell phone and dial 911 but take careful notes, so when the police arrive you could describe everything you saw with perfect clarity.

[The Willow Sword]

Oh boy this has turned into another " ah luvs mah guhn" thread. or a hijack from the original topic. I think it is appauling that people have this mentality that they have to have a gun under every corner of their home:rolleyes:

"well iffin ah am bein invaded in mah home ah gots ta have a means ta defind mahself. i gots me ah gun under mah bed, and in tha closet and buhind mah terlet bowl, and uhhhh luts see ah also gots one in mah lazy boy chur where ah sit on mah a$$ all thu time and wutch springer" " lord be praised ah luvs mah gun, i just luvs it.""":rolleyes:


I can respect the 2nd amendment but i definately do NOT respect this gun toting mentality this country has. Guys like the NRA and the Minute men are a bad representation of what it means to have freedom and privaleges in this country and ALSO how the amendments are used and abused to further the gun violence that is rampant in this country.

"Hey son let's go owwt and go to that wal-marrrrt and git yeeww yer first Reyefull", Sheeoooot it makes me proud tah know that mah son will now git a chance to be as nimwitted as muhself and lurn that we just arent safe at ALL unlessen we gots us ah gun ta stroke every night"

I also think that Neils reasoning about "walking away" from helping another human being is quite the bastion for his freely admitted cowardice:rolleyes:
but i can also agree that your family's safety take priority in your life, HOWEVER,if you are willing to Self Sacrifice for your family, then why would you not be willing to do the same for someone in Need of your help IF you posess the skills and the will to HELP that person in need?

TWS

[David Jamieson]

Um, I fully support the right to have guns.

I don't own a single firearm myself for personal reasons, but if someone wants to have 1000 pistols and rifles then why not?

at least that guy can arm a militia if there is a call for one. :) that's the idea right? To be a citizen based check and balance against the power of the government? And as well to provide a ways and means of survival and protection.

be thankful you do'nt live in canada where the gun laws are so messed up and the education and intel on the matter is bordering on silly. To the point where people say incredible nonsense about guns and gun control on a regular basis here.

[KC Elbows]

Quick Story:

I'm 17, I'm downtown, and clueless. We're walking back to the van we took out there, the others are ahead of me, I'm lighting a smoke. They get in the car, I'm in front of it, a guy walks up to me asking if I have a smoke, he has friends who start circling, I'm not aware of how far along the process is, and untrained in fighting regardless. My buddy, who is in thr driver's seat, honks the horn and yells at me to get in or he's leaving, I probably said "sorry" to the guy asking for a smoke as I get in the car, I'm so clueless(probably drunk as well, I don't recall what we did that night).

Anyway, my friend, who was much more street smart than I was then, spends the drive home telling me that I need to be less of a nice guy and think about myself once in a while, that I should never let anyone circle me, that I need a knife, and that I was being a *******.

It was nice to hear him say I was a nice guy, it was useful being told how to handle situations; the useful part has been much more applicable over the years. In hindsight, there was a fight about to begin that was averted solely by honking a horn and yelling, by a guy who knew the score.

It's all nice and everything, what everyone's saying to ST00, and some of the people trying to give advice might not have the advice others would recommend, but good advice is more useful than kudos, and being unarmed in the hood is a bad idea, so if you're ST00's friend, yell at him about it, don't let that sh1t slide.

Mostly because a thread about people's views on street situations is a hell of a lot more interesting than a thread about how sexy you think ST00 is, and tihs is all, after all, about entertaining me.:p

[neilhytholt]

"well iffin ah am bein invaded in mah home ah gots ta have a means ta defind mahself. i gots me ah gun under mah bed, and in tha closet and buhind mah terlet bowl, and uhhhh luts see ah also gots one in mah lazy boy chur where ah sit on mah a$$ all thu time and wutch springer" " lord be praised ah luvs mah gun, i just luvs it.""":rolleyes:

You're not a real Texan. :)

[neilhytholt]

I'm 17, I'm downtown, and clueless. We're walking back to the van we took out there, the others are ahead of me, I'm lighting a smoke.

...

Mostly because a thread about people's views on street situations is a hell of a lot more interesting than a thread about how sexy you think ST00 is, and tihs is all, after all, about entertaining me.:p

This and your 'nancy boy' tagline so much reminds me of the time I was a young kid waiting at the bus stop and this guy came up to me ... started talking to me ... I was like, "why is this guy talking to me." Offers to give me a ride home. (I decline).

Then I noticed that I was sitting on a bus stop right outside the local gay bar. LOL

[David Jamieson]

tws probably owns guns himself as well.

[The Willow Sword]

well dave you would be right.

[Mas Judt]

Yeah, a buddy of mine went to SF for a job interview when he was in his twenties. Guys kept coming up asking him for the time... he thought "Gosh, no one around here wears watches..."

Sometimes cluelessness is bliss...

[Knifefighter]

I'm sure this woman was glad he had the balls to take it inteas of turning his head and walking away. Sounds like you and a few others are better trained than most of us and would have had the cool, calculated presence of mind to hit the deck and roll behind a car for cover, pull out your cell phone and dial 911 but take careful notes, so when the police arrive you could describe everything you saw with perfect clarity.
That was too funny.

Pwn3d by Ray.

[neilhytholt]

"but i can also agree that your family's safety take priority in your life, HOWEVER,if you are willing to Self Sacrifice for your family, then why would you not be willing to do the same for someone in Need of your help IF you posess the skills and the will to HELP that person in need?"

Why?

a) Because you put yourself at risk. Any time you have to get involved in violence it's a risk. You don't know if they have guns or knives, etc.

b) Even if you successfully beat the bad guys, now they hate you. Bad guys and bad people have friends. They might look you up later when you're not doing anything and hurt you.

c) That's the job of the cops. They're better trained to handle that. I'm not trained to deal with that.

If I'm walking around or something, and some woman or guy is getting hassled, I probably will do something about it, but honestly I don't think that's always very smart.

One time in high school, I think it was, there was this girl arguing with her boyfriend. He hit her, so I went over to break it up. I said to the guy, "Stop that." He swung at me, I blocked his punch and put him up against the wall.

The girlfriend then proceeded to kick me in the nuts and then they both went laughing away.

Somehow that always stuck with me. Don't get involved in other people's B.S.

[Royal Dragon]

then why would you not be willing to do the same for someone in Need of your help IF you posess the skills and the will to HELP that person in need?"

Reply]
ST does not have the skills though, his taktics shows he tried to use Ring skills in a real world encounter. He did everything wrong, and quite literaly was at thier mercy even though he didn't realise it, especially with losing track of the second guy.

It could have turned on him in a blink, and he could easily have found out how un prepared he really was...if he live through it.

[David Jamieson]

couple of things i know to be true.

It feels good to help someone.

You can never know the outcome of any confrontation even if you have knowledge and training that supercedes most.

To not take action on behalf of the person being predated upon is incorrect.

RD- you are making a dangerous assumption that knowledge will dictate outcome. This is not true in any sense of the word. ST reacted the way he knew how, I would have acted teh way I know how, you may have acted the way you know how, what's safe to say is that we would likely have all acted in some way to end the attack on the person who was being victimized by the predators.

To do anything less is to lack in character. In my opinion.

[PangQuan]

this kind of stuff is always a personal call.

if you want to go put yourself on the line to help others in need, then thats what you do.

if you dont then you dont.

when does one decide that its "high enough stakes" to get involved?

when your in the park at night and you hear a muffling squeek and find a girl in the process of getting raped near a low hanging tree surrounded by bushes, do you act? do you ignore? or do you call someone else to fight it?

the guy could have friends, he could be armed...you may not be able to assess whether or not the situation is perfectly safe.

when does a man decide to be a true man and do what is best for those in need of help?

this comes down to each individual. deep inside, when you are alone in your bed at night and you are truly honest with yourself. this is the area that decides whether we act or not. its not going to be influenced by anyone on the internet, nor by what amount of threat we see. some people will act and some will not.

it doesnt matter who does and who doesnt act.

are you willing to die for a right ideal? for the pursuit of actual justice, be it large or small....this is what sets some men apart from others. not training.

even a sniveling puke can train for 40 years and coward out when someone need him most. true courage lives in a mans heart and soul.

[KC Elbows]

I don't agree with some of the criticisms of technique or approach, but the whole "heroism is the only way to go" lacks reality of any sort. If you haven't had to walk away from a situation because you could do nothing to change it, called the police when it was probably all over, and not liked it, then you were lucky.

MOST people do what they can to help things, MOST of the time. I've yet to meet anyone who does so all the time, I suspect they're dead.

[Chief Fox]

So I'm driving down the street with my 4 year old son in the back. As I'm driving I see over on the side walk some guy beating up a girl. Before I realize I had driven past. I go around the block and come back. I pull up to the curb half way out in traffic and lean on the horn. I stay in the car and yell at the guy, "If you hit her again, I'm calling the cops!". He comes up with a few excuses like, he was helping her, she fell down, stuff like that. Each time I say "NO! you were beating her up, I saw it and if you hit her again, I'm calling the cops!". The girl starts to say, "yeah, he's gonna call the cops!". I tell her that she needs to stay away from him and I tell him that he needs to go cool off. He leaves.

I stayed in my car and could have driven away at any time. I stayed in the car because I'm not interested in having my son witness me being killed. I was half way out in traffic drawing attention to myself so cars would have to go around me. I used a firm voice the whole time. I don't even have a phone so I really couldn't have called the cops anyway.

I kinda feel like I did the minimum. BUT, the minimum worked. I helped that girl.

[neilhytholt]

The last time I some poor guy being hassled, there was this little guy, about 4'8". He was trying to steal a cart full of groceries from the supermarket, and literally 5 cop cars were there, and this female cop had this poor guy on the ground, with his arm stretched behind at a very uncomfortable angle.

I almost ... almost ... stepped in and told her to go easy on the guy, but I feared for my own safety especially with the show of firepower and force.

So I just walked by and walked away ... still kindof guilty about that one. I mean, the poor guy was just trying to feed his family. Didn't need to get abused like that.

[PangQuan]

sometimes the best and only thing you can do is make a phone call. not every situation can be properly handled by one gung ho individual.

its the mentality that someone else will take care of it that makes the difference.

when you see a horrible car accident take place, do you keep driving or do you stop, get out and help as much as possible.

its not always a serious dangerous situation that is in question. sometimes its just going out of your way to help.

i for one have been in a situation where i needed someone to step outside the box and help. with out that help i would likely be dead. and i have myself helped where no one else was near or could help.

often times its not about heroics, often it comes down to you are the only one that can do anything and either you do or dont. no heroics considered.

[KC Elbows]

So I'm driving down the street with my 4 year old son in the back. As I'm driving I see over on the side walk some guy beating up a girl. Before I realize I had driven past. I go around the block and come back. I pull up to the curb half way out in traffic and lean on the horn. I stay in the car and yell at the guy, "If you hit her again, I'm calling the cops!". He comes up with a few excuses like, he was helping her, she fell down, stuff like that. Each time I say "NO! you were beating her up, I saw it and if you hit her again, I'm calling the cops!". The girl starts to say, "yeah, he's gonna call the cops!". I tell her that she needs to stay away from him and I tell him that he needs to go cool off. He leaves.

I stayed in my car and could have driven away at any time. I stayed in the car because I'm not interested in having my son witness me being killed. I was half way out in traffic drawing attention to myself so cars would have to go around me. I used a firm voice the whole time. I don't even have a phone so I really couldn't have called the cops anyway.

I kinda feel like I did the minimum. BUT, the minimum worked. I helped that girl.


You should have used a guillotine choke.

[PangQuan]

no, no...monkey steals peaches is what that situation called for.:D

[KC Elbows]

Now that I've thought about it, not only should you have choked that guy out, but then you should have choked your own son out for sitting there and being like those other do nothings on this thread, then commenced to beat that woman senseless for not applying situational awareness and aliveness training in her life. Only then would all the loose threads of justice have been tied tight.

Next time you're in a similar situation, remember what I've told you.

[neilhytholt]

BTW if you stay out of parks at night then you'll never come across somebody being raped in a park at night.

And anyway, how do you know they're getting raped and not just having a good time?

So the easiest thing is just stay away from parks at night.

[KC Elbows]

no, no...monkey steals peaches is what that situation called for.:D

No, far too style specific a choice.

You need to remember, the only reason anyone does anything is to then post about it and soak in the adoration of the forum members. If you use monkey steals a peach, you will have to deal with twenty pages of "how did you test that against a resisting opponent", whereas you can do a choke and then point to the move in your form, choke, oh, we call that "anaconda doesa what she wanna".

[DragonzRage]

shaolintiger,

As a police officer, here's my take: First off, good on you for stepping in to help an innocent and defenseless person. Different cops might tell you different things, but I for one have no issue against you stepping in for a situation like this. Now if you were like this one fellow I had last week who rushed out of his house to confront a group of chollos tagging a wall across the street... yeah that would've been pretty stupid and not worth it. But when a defenseless lady is at risk of getting hurt or killed, I say its the right thing to do.

I don't have a problem with the fact that you took action, but I might have a problem with the way you did it. If you had a cell phone on you, I think you should've hung back for a second and put in a quick 911 call before stepping in, just so you know you already have a unit rolling. Although it ended harmlessly enough, you could've been stepping into the fight of your life for all you knew. You were unarmed. And to step into that without ensuring that you have back up on the way is not the smartest thing to do for obvious reasons. Of course if she was already getting beaten, then to not step in right away would definitely jeopardize her life. From what you described, it doesn't sound like that was the case though.

As has already been beaten to death on this thread, the whole thing with knee riding suspect #1 while suspect #2 is standing behind you was pretty stupid. Unfortunately, martial arts training in general tends to teach certain bad habits for dynamic street situations, especially when it comes to tunnel vision. You're so used to going toe to toe or grappling with a single unarmed opponent that when something like this incident happens, you instinctively revert to your training. It sounds like the guys you ran into were fairly harmless clowns, as most of these trolls are. But there is a significant minority of them who are desperate/stupid/crazy enough to kill you without thinking twice about it. There's a huge homeless problem in my city, and you'd be amazed at the type of crap we find on them sometimes. They carry shanks, belt buckle knives, brass knuckles, clubs, etc. A lot of them attach big padlocks to the end of a chain, using this as a makeshift slungshot. We even find guns on them occasionally (but rarely). On top of that, a lot of them have at least some kind of disgusting disease(s) festering in their blood. It indirectly endangers your life just to have them bleed on you... god forbid you run into one that bites.

SO anyway, when you walk into a situation like this, you gotta make sure you maintain a tactical mindset and keep "the big picture" in view. I was a martial artist before I became a cop, and although it equipped me with good physical capability to deal with some of these ****heads out there, I definitely had to unlearn the stupid things that martial arts training taught me as well. IMO, being MMA'ists in particular tends to make us a bit overconfident in our abilities out on the streets. As weak as some of the traditional guys are, a lot of them at least tend to think in a paranoid/survivalist mindset, which is actually very useful for practical purposes. But as MMA'ists, I think we're so used to actually kicking a$$/taking punishment and physically dominating people that some of us develop an unconscious "superman" complex, which causes us to strut around a bit too confidently and possibly make poor decisions in real life or death situations.

Anyway, hindsight is always 20/20 and at the end of the day you helped an innocent person and got two ****heads off the streets. So good job. As much as I hate being a monday morning quarterback regarding an incident I did not even witness, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. You sound like a good guy and I just don't wanna see you get killed in the future simply because you were doing the right thing in the wrong way.

Oh, and I highly doubt that anyone I work with would've arrested you for assault in this situation. You didn't excessively kick the crap out of anyone. And based on the victim's statement, I'm sure that any assault charges those trolls might've wanted to press against you would obviously be completely unfounded.

[PangQuan]

BTW if you stay out of parks at night then you'll never come across somebody being raped in a park at night.

And anyway, how do you know they're getting raped and not just having a good time?

So the easiest thing is just stay away from parks at night.

sometimes you just find yourself walking through the park at night because its between you and your destination.

you only need about 20 seconds or less to tell if a woman is being oppressed in the bushes...

[neilhytholt]

sometimes you just find yourself walking through the park at night because its between you and your destination.

you only need about 20 seconds or less to tell if a woman is being oppressed in the bushes...

Nope ... never go through the park especially at night. Unless you're looking for trouble.

[Ou Ji]

To be against guns is like being against footware.

I'm against hammers myself. A lot of lives could be saved if hammers weren't so easily accessible. Screwdrivers too.

Since I'm not politically correct I'm fine with beating up on low lifes. I think he should have jacked them both just to be safe. I'm sure the women would have covered his story.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Dragonzrage,

You're absolutely right regarding teh cellphone and I swear if I had even thought about what I was doing for a second, I think there were several options that I should have taken.

I heard that scream, saw the lady and that was just it. click. I didn't even remember dropping my messenger bag or anything. I just ran over to help her.

and not that it matters now or even then but I never let crackhead #2 behind me. Let me try to paint this picture. Imagine a T shape with 2 parked cars and an open lane in front of them. I was standing at the bottom when I arrived. Lady was to my right, guys to the left. As I arrived I got closer and closer to her as she was sort of trapped between her car and another . so by the time this all went down she was to my right and the guy was to my left and his buddy was behind him and moving away. thought I did lose sight/thought about him for a while after I got the guy in control I looked up and checked on him.

Ironically I am a CCW carrier in my home state of Ohio though seldom carry. but as I work in a neighboring state, I never take my pistol. :o

[David Jamieson]

hindsight is 20/20

there's a lot of what ifs being thrown around here which for me is not the point.

the event is over, the action you took was the correct one according to the outcome that did occur.

use the experience as points towards the next possible situation.

"what if" is always something that never happened, it is the least valuable advise in my opinion.

"what is" and "what did" are the real factors in learning. Not all the second thinking and what someone else would have done is not relevant, they weren't there, they didn't do it and frankly, they can't honestly say that in reviewing your event that they would have acted in anyway at all. THey have yet to be in your situation and ergo cannot acurately speak to it.

some may have shared similar experiences, in which case, tehy will likely agree with what you did. these people are the ones who can relate. no offense to anyone, but if it hasn;t happened to you, you can't presume to fully understand.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

shaolintiger,

As a police officer, here's my take: ........

royal dragon .. you should take notes here.

dragon has reiterated much of what you've been saying, but since he wasn't being intentionally abrasive people might actually take it into consideration.

you had some good points ... but as soon as you put people on the defencive they could care less.

i'm sure youre aware of this but i thought id mention it anyway.

[Judge Pen]

Good job ST. Things could always go different, but no one knows how they will react until they are confronted. I'm glad that you and the lady were not hurt and you have my respect for acting under the circumstances. I'm not one to judge how you "should" have done it because I wasn't there. Chances are that many of the critics here would have run away and let that woman get mugged.

[David Jamieson]

I wouldn't always say the police have the best advice on the matter.

they have a couple of advantages.

1. they have the image of authority which gives a person second thought

2.should the person not give a flying donut about the authourity image, they will resort to overwhelming force.


if a cop isn't there, and you stop a situation, you have acted correctly.

[neilhytholt]

royal dragon .. you should take notes here.

dragon has reiterated much of what you've been saying, but since he wasn't being intentionally abrasive people might actually take it into consideration.

you had some good points ... but as soon as you put people on the defencive they could care less.

i'm sure youre aware of this but i thought id mention it anyway.

You are just taking it as being non-abrasive because it starts out with as a cop ... after a little while posting on this forum one thing really stands out:

What you guys think the person is about is more important than what the person actually says.

[KC Elbows]

Good job ST. Things could always go different, but no one knows how they will react until they are confronted. I'm glad that you and the lady were not hurt and you have my respect for acting under the circumstances. I'm not one to judge how you "should" have done it because I wasn't there. Chances are that many of the critics here would have run away and let that woman get mugged.

Do you really believe that most people would allow that situation to go that way without doing anything? I mean, crime usually is hidden away, the reason why is because people like some order.

Additionally, if this thread isn't a "pat me on the back" kind of thing, which it didn't come off as being, then discussion is perfectly fair, which really boils down to methods for dealing with the situation.

Boiling it down to bravery in every post is pretty useless, people have suggested not doing things like this unarmed, which is a good idea, the point that calling police after the fact is a bad idea, etc. These are things we can take away from the discussion, but if discussion is dissuaded, then if we came to this thread knowing no better, then we could do no better.

I mean, is this supposed to be a thread about how cool ST00 is? Or about that kind of situation and approaches to it?

I agree with gda, the basic ideas are good, just lost behind another argument, but the solution to that argument isn't to dissuade criticism, it's a discussion forum, criticism is a given, and a healthy amount of it is good.

ST00 has not once on this thread given anyone here the impression that he expects his approach to be seen as perfect, and seems far more receptive to this criticism than those defending him, taking it for what it's worth, point by point. Everything else is personality issues that he hasn't played in to.

Does he need the rest of us declaring him hero? I already stated that I didn't think that was his intent, the act was its own reward.

Which leaves approaching the topic, the way to handle similar issues, and arguments regarding that. But, if we're gonna paint doing that as "the act of those who have no heroism," then the thread is pointless.

It's NOT either "his mma didn't prepare him" or "these cowards wouldn't have done it", which are both equally meaningless in regards to the original post, and both based on so much vapor. The one is merely a predeliction for one style over the other; the other approach is intellectually equivalent to saying "you never know who will come through, but you won't because..." when the market for doing the right thing when the s hits the fan is hardly cornered by reasonable people, or even all around good people.

[Chief Fox]

Now that I've thought about it, not only should you have choked that guy out, but then you should have choked your own son out for sitting there and being like those other do nothings on this thread, then commenced to beat that woman senseless for not applying situational awareness and aliveness training in her life. Only then would all the loose threads of justice have been tied tight.

Next time you're in a similar situation, remember what I've told you.
Thanks, I guess I froze. Next time I'll lay down the proper amount of street justice. I have since declared my now 5 year old son to not be my son at all.

[KC Elbows]

Thanks, I guess I froze. Next time I'll lay down the proper amount of street justice. I have since declared my now 5 year old son to not be my son at all.

You are the man.

I can just see your look of pride when you kicked him out, looking him square in the eye and saying "Who's your daddy? Not me!"

[Royal Dragon]

ST00 has not once on this thread given anyone here the impression that he expects his approach to be seen as perfect, and seems far more receptive to this criticism than those defending him, taking it for what it's worth, point by point. Everything else is personality issues that he hasn't played in to.

reply]
Yes, I noticed that myself. Props to him for that.

I have also noticed he has not been conversing as he useually does....makes me think he is ponderig the whole thing.

[Radhnoti]

I agree that it's worthwhile to discuss the scenario, but RD was in attack mode there, "Are you going to go get some real world training instead of that bad habits NHB drills into you now?" I think most had to weigh in with a "good job" just to counter that negativity. He took what he had to help someone SELFLESSLY, which is great and the world needs more of to improve things. We could/should discuss tactics, but the fact is he probably used the technique he was most comfortable with...and therefore the one with the highest probability of working. He didn't show his back to #2, and he noticed the guy was already backing off when he showed up. Maybe the RIGHT thing to do was to focus on #1.

neilhytholt - "The last time I some poor guy being hassled, there was this little guy, about 4'8". He was trying to steal a cart full of groceries from the supermarket, and literally 5 cop cars were there, and this female cop had this poor guy on the ground, with his arm stretched behind at a very uncomfortable angle. I almost ... almost ... stepped in and told her to go easy on the guy, but I feared for my own safety especially with the show of firepower and force.
So I just walked by and walked away ... still kindof guilty about that one. I mean, the poor guy was just trying to feed his family. Didn't need to get abused like that."

I think that you and I are 180 degrees out of synch with each other. Do you side with the criminal in every instance or does it just seem that way with the anecdotes you share on this board? :D
The guy ST nailed was a mugger...I feel for the lady, the VICTIM.
The guy you saw was a thief...I feel for the store owner (probably not as rich as you think, and probably working harder to make something for himself and his family), again the VICTIM.
You're worrying about the guys that got what they deserved in all likelihood...that's my take anyway.

[Judge Pen]

I think you read a bit too much into my brief post, but to hit some high points. . . .


Do you really believe that most people would allow that situation to go that way without doing anything? I mean, crime usually is hidden away, the reason why is because people like some order.

Yes, I think that most people would have kept walking. They may have called the police after they felt they were personally out of harms way.

Additionally, if this thread isn't a "pat me on the back" kind of thing, which it didn't come off as being, then discussion is perfectly fair, which really boils down to methods for dealing with the situation.
I have no problem with discussing alternatives. I just was frusterated with all the people belittling ST for reacting to the situation (which went beyond constructive criticism). Some people indicated that demanding money and grabbing at her purse wasn't assualt, which is ridiculous. Besides, by the time I got around to reading the thread and posting, most everything that should or could have been said was already said--thus I just gave a brief response echoing the opinions I agreed with--like dragonzrage's post
Boiling it down to bravery in every post is pretty useless, people have suggested not doing things like this unarmed, which is a good idea, the point that calling police after the fact is a bad idea, etc. These are things we can take away from the discussion, but if discussion is dissuaded, then if we came to this thread knowing no better, then we could do no better.
Again, good discussion before I came along. I probably would have done some things differently, but I admired the fact that he took action nonetheless. Forgive me for not taking the time to write a thesis on the topic instead of a brief paragraph.

I mean, is this supposed to be a thread about how cool ST00 is? Or about that kind of situation and approaches to it?

I've never met the man so I don't know if he is cool or not. I did appreciate his actions in the situation as I do believe that many would have acted cowardly

I agree with gda, the basic ideas are good, just lost behind another argument, but the solution to that argument isn't to dissuade criticism, it's a discussion forum, criticism is a given, and a healthy amount of it is good.

It wasn't my intent to dissuade criticism, but to dissuade stupid criticism. Constructive criticism is always welcome

ST00 has not once on this thread given anyone here the impression that he expects his approach to be seen as perfect, and seems far more receptive to this criticism than those defending him, taking it for what it's worth, point by point. Everything else is personality issues that he hasn't played in to.

Nor did I say his actions were perfect. . . . I just dislike seeing people tear someone down when they weren't there in the first place.

Does he need the rest of us declaring him hero? I already stated that I didn't think that was his intent, the act was its own reward.

We agree. I think you read too much into my post.

Which leaves approaching the topic, the way to handle similar issues, and arguments regarding that. But, if we're gonna paint doing that as "the act of those who have no heroism," then the thread is pointless.

By thie time I got here, the tread had played itself out, and people were making jokes about hammers.

It's NOT either "his mma didn't prepare him" or "these cowards wouldn't have done it", which are both equally meaningless in regards to the original post, and both based on so much vapor. The one is merely a predeliction for one style over the other; the other approach is intellectually equivalent to saying "you never know who will come through, but you won't because..." when the market for doing the right thing when the s hits the fan is hardly cornered by reasonable people, or even all around good people.

I didn't take either approach. I think his actions showed he was a good and reasonable person. What's the big deal in saying that? For what it's worth, I would have called the police first and not went to the ground with the guy, but I don't know if my probable actions would have been any better or worse in these circumstances; just different.

[KC Elbows]

My previous post is proof you cannot dissuade stupid criticism.;) :D

I just think there aren't THAT many people on here dogging him(maaaaybe two, one of those sort of is and sort of isn't)*, it's sort of a tempest in a teapot thing, where there's a number of people posting nothing useful to the topic except to dog any criticism, a number of critics who may have some points in between their less salient info, and a useful topic being largely lost to it.

It's just as stupid to suggest that ST00 failed by not applying move x as to suggest that there isn't a situation where it's total stupidity to be brave, step in and die, and that gets lost to the argument that took over.

For instance, he could have used a zip line. I would have. Boo on him.

[DragonzRage]

shaolintiger,

ok i get an idea of what you're saying. so you really didn't let the guy put you in a position of extreme disadvantage, as i originally pictured. my bad for jumping to conclusions.

as for the 911 call thing, yeah just chalk it up to experience. trust me, i'm not trying to say i'm any smarter than you are. i've made very similar mistakes in the past... except i was dumb enough to make them even after graduating from the police academy (where I was taught and trained NOT to make those kind of mistakes). one of the first things i did as a new officer in field training was to jump into an assault/battery in progress, without putting it out on the radio first. afterwards my training officer pulled me aside. i was expecting him to compliment my performance, but instead he chewed my head off about jumping into a fight without putting out my location and advising dispatch regarding the circs. he told me it was one of the stupidest things he ever saw a trainee do. man, i felt like **** afterwards. so anyway, i can relate to the fact that you were presented with dynamic circumstances, and you simply reacted to them. whatever i said before was not meant to take away from the fact that you acted with noble intentions, good resolve, and you prevailed.

[DragonzRage]

"should the person not give a flying donut about the authourity image, they will resort to overwhelming force."

-i wish it were that simple. it always take time for all your back-up to arrive. by the time "overwhelming force" shows up, you might already be shot dead and the suspect long gone.


"if a cop isn't there, and you stop a situation, you have acted correctly."

-don't you think that's a bit too much of a blanket statement? thats like saying that as long as you win a fight, there's nothing you could've done better.

[Knifefighter]

DRage-
Wow, you're a cop now?
Which dept?
Got a couple of friends just coming out of LA Sheriff adademy.

[rogue]

Reply]ST does not have the skills though, his taktics shows he tried to use Ring skills in a real world encounter. He did everything wrong, and quite literaly was at thier mercy even though he didn't realise it, especially with losing track of the second guy.

Now that this thread is calming down a little

RD, what skills are you talking about and where and how did you get yours?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

You are just taking it as being non-abrasive because it starts out with as a cop

lets take a look at some quotes from both of them:


First off, good on you .... I don't have a problem with the fact that you took action, but I might have a problem with the way you did it. ..... I think you should've hung back for a second and put in a quick 911 call before stepping in, just so you know you already have a unit rolling .... Anyway, hindsight is always 20/20 and at the end of the day you helped an innocent person and got two ****heads off the streets. So good job. .... As much as I hate being a monday morning quarterback regarding an incident I did not even witness, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents. You sound like a good guy and I just don't wanna see you get killed in the future simply because you were doing the right thing in the wrong way.


as opposed to ....


What he did was highly irresponsible, in that he escalated it, and did it in a totaly inept, and reckless manor that very likely could have gotten them both killed. He for being dumb enough to play out his MMA fantasies in the real world, and her for being the witness to his resulting murder....
....... His biggest mistake was his incompetance in engageing. ....but he didn't, he did something very stupid, and foolish. .... The real world in NOT the Octagon. You MMA freaks need to learn that.

you catch more flys with honey than you do with vinager. then again, i guess if you rip their wings off they'll eat whatever you give them.




... after a little while posting on this forum one thing really stands out:

What you guys think the person is about is more important than what the person actually says.

this is absolutely true. i didn't bother pointing out the fact that i thought you were acting like a d1ck, but i like royal dragon and i just thought he should know.

[rogue]

-i wish it were that simple. it always take time for all your back-up to arrive. by the time "overwhelming force" shows up, you might already be shot dead and the suspect long gone.

Dragon Rage, I have to ask at risk of sounding like a complete a-hole; Where does the victim (if there is one) figure into this?

[Oso]

been busy...not reading all these posts...

but, yea, at least by NC law, you overstepped your legal right to assist someone else....but, that's the legal schmeogel...

I think you should cap his ass next time.:cool: :eek: ;)

there is a line around me...tis about 24" off my centerline in any direction...don't cross it physically.


but, I'm getting extremely short tempered in my old age...and I don't care. :)

[BigPandaBear]

As a father and a husband, I gotta say that ST did the right thing. Certainly it wasn't perfect, but ****, the guy prevented a crime, and we all should be proud that someone used their martial skills for more than just winning a freakin' trophy, or yakking it up on an internet message board. Looks like his MMA training served him just fine.

To those who said he should have settled things differently, I know that if someone was harrassing my wife or daughter, I'd step in without a second thought. If he grabbed my wife or daughter in any way, I'd also lay their arses on the pavement, and I'd question any MAN who wouldn't do the exact same thing. We can't always carry pepper spray and cellphones. Afterall, that's why we're doing MA in the first place; To defend ourselves and the ones we love.

Yeah we could potentially die in the process, but people die all the time even after giving the perp exactly what he wants. Sometimes the perps just want to kill someone because they're freaking sociopaths who have no respect for human life.

Look at the hijacked planes on 9/11. 3 of the planes complied with the hijackers to avoid getting killed. They all died anyway. The people on the 4th plane decided not to become victims and took matters in their own hands.

You can either die like a warrior or die like a victim. If you're going to die anyway, might as well make it count for something.

[Radhnoti]

Where I'm from the fact that he threatened AND there were two of them would probably make a SHOOTING justified if the lady had a firearm. When they threatened THEN touched her/the purse isn't that an assault? Obviously so, since the police took them off instead of releasing them and taking ST, right? Anyone CAN sue for anything...but I'd not be especially worried that a jury of my peers would take the bad guy's side in this case.
'Course JP would have a better handle on this than myself...but had I been ST I wouldn't be too worried in my area.

[chud]

As a father and a husband, I gotta say that ST did the right thing. Certainly it wasn't perfect, but ****, the guy prevented a crime, and we all should be proud that someone used their martial skills for more than just winning a freakin' trophy, or yakking it up on an internet message board. Looks like his MMA training served him just fine.

To those who said he should have settled things differently, I know that if someone was harrassing my wife or daughter, I'd step in without a second thought. If he grabbed my wife or daughter in any way, I'd also lay their arses on the pavement, and I'd question any MAN who wouldn't do the exact same thing. We can't always carry pepper spray and cellphones. Afterall, that's why we're doing MA in the first place; To defend ourselves and the ones we love.

Yeah we could potentially die in the process, but people die all the time even after giving the perp exactly what he wants. Sometimes the perps just want to kill someone because they're freaking sociopaths who have no respect for human life.

Look at the hijacked planes on 9/11. 3 of the planes complied with the hijackers to avoid getting killed. They all died anyway. The people on the 4th plane decided not to become victims and took matters in their own hands.

You can either die like a warrior or die like a victim. If you're going to die anyway, might as well make it count for something.

Well said, I agree 100%!!!

[ChinoXL]

okay.. I don't know how this became a flamewar however
A. YES he could of gotten killed
B. It takes balls to do what he did
If you flame him you are very ignorant about the real world.. that extra second that he makes the call the lady could of gotten beaten and ended up in the hospital; (real street fights last a good 30 seconds) they would just beat her take her purse and RUN .. and IF he did not save her it would of turned into something like this http://comegetyousome.com/video/brutal_mugging.wmv it's a little brutal however this is the real world and I AM SHOCKED THAT alot of you guys are not aware of these kinds of situtions. I live in NY and things like this happen all the time; yes i know a black belt who tried to save a girl in the ally and ended up getting shot and now he's paralyzed waist down however.. since he got off good; why not congratulate him he deserves more then a pat on the back. And ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING: crackheads will do anything for a buck.. imagine wht they woulda done to that poor girl if he did not save her

[BigPandaBear]

okay.. I don't know how this became a flamewar however
A. YES he could of gotten killed
B. It takes balls to do what he did
If you flame him you are very ignorant about the real world.. that extra second that he makes the call the lady could of gotten beaten and ended up in the hospital; (real street fights last a good 30 seconds) they would just beat her take her purse and RUN .. and IF he did not save her it would of turned into something like this http://comegetyousome.com/video/brutal_mugging.wmv it's a little brutal however this is the real world and I AM SHOCKED THAT alot of you guys are not aware of these kinds of situtions. I live in NY and things like this happen all the time; yes i know a black belt who tried to save a girl in the ally and ended up getting shot and now he's paralyzed waist down however.. since he got off good; why not congratulate him he deserves more then a pat on the back. And ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING: crackheads will do anything for a buck.. imagine wht they woulda done to that poor girl if he did not save her

Good post right there.

Bottom line is that you gotta pick your battles. If you walk into a situation where YOU are the only one who can save another person's life, it falls upon YOU to do something about it. Certainly if you can avoid conflict, avoid it. However there's going to be times when only violence can end violence, and there's going to be times where you're going to get hurt or even killed and there's not a thing you can do about it.

That video of that old lady getting beat down by a mugger really gets my blood boiling.

[Judge Pen]

I would have interpreted the situation as an assault on the woman. From what was described in ST's posts, she would have had an objective and reasonable fear from bodily harm. Intimidation is assault if one objectively and reasonably could think that they will carry out the threat. If she, as the person subjected to the assault, could have defended herself then a third-party (ST) could also have legally used reasonable force to have defended her. Now this may differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and it is certainly open to interpretation, but I think he was legally justified in doing what he did. The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

[rogue]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

That's the $64,000 question. Depending on the force a person uses what is the potential damage of knee riding a persons neck? Is it an illegal technique in the ring and if so why?




Look at the hijacked planes on 9/11. 3 of the planes complied with the hijackers to avoid getting killed. They all died anyway. The people on the 4th plane decided not to become victims and took matters in their own hands.
The people on those planes followed the conventional wisdom of the time, which was to sit tight and wait for negotiations or Delta to get you out. The people on the 4th plane knew what the hijackers were trying to do, the others did not. I'd guess you would have sat tight also if you didn't know.

[Royal Dragon]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

Reply]
This is an interesting question. based on what he said, they grabbed her purse already, but had NOT touched her. It was still a purse snatch, and not a battery. Assult maybe. If they were threatening, or actually layed hands on her personally, then he was justified in what he did.

[Judge Pen]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?

Reply]
This is an interesting question. based on what he said, they grabbed her purse already, but had NOT touched her. It was still a purse snatch, and not a battery. Assult maybe. If they were threatening, or actually layed hands on her personally, then he was justified in what he did.

It doesn't matter. If someone is grabbing your purse and is attempting to intimidate you by threatening you then its an assault. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL IT BECOMES A BATTERY TO DEFEND YOURSELF. You can be justified in defending yourself or your property. You can reasonably expect a woman to fear that they will do more. You can't assume that they will leave you alone; you should be afraid if you're a little old lady.

Rouge, he wasn't in the ring. It doesn't matter what is legal in the ring, just what force was justified to protect the woman and yourself.

[David Jamieson]

"should the person not give a flying donut about the authourity image, they will resort to overwhelming force."

-i wish it were that simple. it always take time for all your back-up to arrive. by the time "overwhelming force" shows up, you might already be shot dead and the suspect long gone.


"if a cop isn't there, and you stop a situation, you have acted correctly."

-don't you think that's a bit too much of a blanket statement? thats like saying that as long as you win a fight, there's nothing you could've done better.

Overwhelming force can be one on one. It is escalation and the LEO will meet any escalation. For instance, the perp is beligerent, the LEO will assert the reality of teh situation. The perp escalates with physical struggle, the LEO will subdue with measured force, Ie hold them, lock them, press them down, the perp pulls a knife, teh LEO pulls a gun, the perp pulls a gun, the LEO pulls a gun and so on. IN the end, there are more LEO's than perps. The LEO rule is always to call for backup at the sign of any escalation is it not? Or even the idea that there may be escalation. Overwhelming force is a solution. How many times do we see paramilitary squads raidingg homes that have a couple of sleepy drug dealers in them? This is overwhelming force that is used as a deterent to any reprisal from any perp.


If a cop isn't around, and you see harm being done is it not within ones social responsibility to do what they can to ensure that harm isn't done to teh innocent party? Cops aren't everywhere at all times, sometimes it's a truism taht there is never one there when you need one...as impossible as that would be anyway.

in st00's case, if it was me, the only thing I would have done different was to first call 911. I would have then made my moves beginning with a loud and strong verbal barrage followed by moving between the perps and the potential victim. If it came to violence, then so be it, I am unable to assume what the outcome would be, but doing the right thing always has an inherent risk and in my opinion, when faced with little other options, then it's a risk worth taking. Walking by is not an option and it is that apathetic attitude or fear which serves to crumble and decay the fibre and essence of a society.

If more people did random acts of kindness, the whole place would change. Too often people are just weakened by their own fear to act. I think part of this weakness is due to social conditioning of reliance and dependency, but taht's a whole other bag of potatoes.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The only question would be did he use more force than was justified under the circumstances?


You're kidding right? I hit the guy, put a shoulder into him and put him on his rump and then held him down. I didn't KO him, maim him, etc.

Sorry man, but that's about as nice as I get. God help him if that woman would have been my wife or mom.. I would have snapped! Then I would have chased down the other guy and f'ed him up!

[Judge Pen]

I didn't say that you USED more force then you should have; I'm saying that that's the question the lawyers etc will ask if one of these bozos tries to prosecute or sue. I doubt they will and if they do I dounbt that they have a prayer of recovery, but that's the questions they will ask.

It's common form unhurt plaintiffs to go to the right lawyer who knows the right doctor who runs up 3 or 4 thousand dollars of medical bills for "soft tissue" injuries. I see it often.

[MasterKiller]

Look at the hijacked planes on 9/11. 3 of the planes complied with the hijackers to avoid getting killed. They all died anyway. The people on the 4th plane decided not to become victims and took matters in their own hands.

4th plane was likely downed by two Air Force fighter jets.

Just like how St00 flew in and downed the crack-head muggers.

Jui-jitsu wins again in both instances.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Zhoo Zitzu! Zhoo Zitzu!

[rogue]

Rouge, he wasn't in the ring. It doesn't matter what is legal in the ring, just what force was justified to protect the woman and yourself.

I know he wasn't in the ring Judge, the question was
"Depending on the force a person uses what is the potential damage of knee riding a persons neck? Is it an illegal technique in the ring and if so why?"
Notice that I wasn't referring to ST but the use of technique itself.



I hit the guy, put a shoulder into him and put him on his rump and then held him down. I didn't KO him, maim him, etc.

Sounds fine to me, good self control.