Intent or No Intent

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Guys

Few question regarding chi kung and meditations, do you practise with Intent or No Intent if so what do you feel is better and what is some of the feelings you get or dont get that related to using Intent and No Intent.

Do you feel one should have intent or No Intent, which is considered higher level if there is any?

Is the Intent just made up in your own mind anyway and not real?

Hope this made sense....

All have a pleasent weekend!

Garry

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Intent is that which inspires thought, action and purpose.. no intent and nothing gets done.. but, too much intent and the experience becomes contrived, mechanical, and closed to possibility... the understanding of intention is crucial to advancement in the internal arts..

Be well....

[Nexus]

Intent is learned through the process of getting things done.

[fiercest tiger]

Is Void state intent or no intent?

[Scott R. Brown]

Is Void state intent or no intent?

It is both and neither!

[Nexus]

It is both and neither!

That is both true and false and sometimes true and sometimes false.

[Scott R. Brown]

That is both true and false and sometimes true and sometimes false.

No Nexus, it is at once true, false and true/false. We may perceive it in any of its separate conditions, either true, false or as true/false, but that is a product of mind. How we perceive it does not change its condtion of being only our perception changes.

That is why it is said that Void is Non-Void and Non-Void is Void! It is both One and Divided at the same time.

Since it is a predominant condition of "our" minds to perceive in a linear fashion, we are normally only able to perceive one state at a time, but as I said that is a conditon of our mind and not a condition of "Void of Non-Void"!

[Nexus]

No Nexus, it is at once true, false and true/false. We may perceive it in any of its separate conditions, either true, false or as true/false, but that is a product of mind. How we perceive it does not change its condtion of being only our perception changes.

That is why it is said that Void is Non-Void and Non-Void is Void! It is both One and Divided at the same time.

Since it is a predominant condition of "our" minds to perceive in a linear fashion, we are normally only able to perceive one state at a time, but as I said that is a conditon of our mind and not a condition of "Void of Non-Void"!

That is both true and false and sometimes true and sometimes false. :D

[Scott R. Brown]

You are correct, LOL!! :p

It appears I interpreted your comment differently than you had intended. It appeared to me you were speaking of separate condtions occuring one at at time rather than all at once! When in fact they occur "one at a time AND all at once"... all at once! ;)

[qiphlow]

like light existing as both particle and wave: how it appears depends on how it is observed.

[Nexus]

The earth and the moon smile, the light between them bends gracefully.


like light existing as both particle and wave: how it appears depends on how it is observed.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Is Void state intent or no intent?What is "void state"? If there is an observer, there is no true "void".. there is that which is, and.. that which is not..

Intent, is the signature of the spirit.. in inspires thought and deed.. it is the nature of the spirit expressed through the filter of the mind and interpreted as action..

Be well...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob,

Void is not empty, it is full! It contains all things, not nothing, therefore it does contain intent because intent IS something and Void contains ALL somethings, not nothing! But more than that! When we are speaking of Void here, I am assuming we are speaking of Void of Non-Void.

If we speak of Void alone then we are still caught in dualism since speaking of Void presumes Non-Void. Therefore, we must address it as the paradox Void of Non-Void!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: I agree, and.. that is why i do not favor the term "void".. it's the Universe, "void" and all.. there is the nothing that cradles the something.. but, even then, science confirms that even in the emptiness of deep space, there is activity that exceeds the notion of "void".. so, "void" as used with the understanding that there is no "true" void, is a voidless void... gads!!! that made my brain itch..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I think i will "avoid" this issue..:D

Be well..

[Nexus]

If we speak of Void alone then we are still caught in dualism since speaking of Void presumes Non-Void.

Scott,

Any notion, including "Void of Non-void", is caught in dualism. You have said many times and I'll paraphrase, that this duality is necessary so we can navigate and communicate in the world system. So, even notions of paradoxes, are still notions that are caught in dualism.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Nexus,

That is so! The closest we may come to what cannot be described within a dualistic system is the paradox.

Observe Yin-Yang! The perfect illustration of the non-dualistic state within a dualistic system!;)

And yet it is also dualistic by nature!!

[Scott R. Brown]

Greetings..

I think i will "avoid" this issue..:D

Be well..


:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

I did so many cuz it wont let me post only one!

aVOIDance is Golden.........;)

[Nexus]

According to Eris, Apples are Golden too.


:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

I did so many cuz it wont let me post only one!

aVOIDance is Golden.........;)

[Scott R. Brown]

According to Eris, Apples are Golden too.


LOL!! Don't you have a wormhole to supervise??;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

So, do we unnecessarily confuse the issues by considering a non-dualistic "Void" from an in-escapable dualistic perspective? We are given this physical existence and then, it seems, seek to "avoid" it through contemplating the inconceivable.. a bit like the ascetic monks who, given the gift of a physical experience reject it as "suffering"..

I tend to favor the Taoist perspective of living this experience with gusto, of conquering desire through embracing it, not rejecting it.. once tamed through the experience, desire can be controlled as a useful tool, not a separate demon.. i suppose it goes to the original question of "intent".. what is one's intent for this experience we call living?

Be well..

[qiphlow]

a-void? the prefix "a" denotes an absence of something, in this case "void"--
there's the voidless void again:D
(i hear the metaphysics mart has brain scratchers on sale...)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob,

I agree with your comments; however keep in mind that the goal of eliminating desire is for the purpose of avoiding suffering. Since suffering is unpleasant it is a “natural” tendency to want to avoid it.

There are those who do not choose to avoid desire, but to avoid excessive attachment. It is actually attachment to the results of actions or attachment to desire that is the cause of suffering and not desire specifically. To want or intend to do anything is to desire (which I know you understand), so if I choose to apply myself to any pursuit for any purpose at all I am desiring. It is when I base my happiness upon the accomplishing of my goal or impose an emotional quality to its accomplishment that I create for myself the condition of suffering.

Your view of embracing experience for what it is has great merit.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Your view of embracing experience for what it is has great merit.
Hi Scott: It took me quite a bit of exploration to finally understand that the illusion was to contrive meanings other than what was directly in front of me.. the hard work is identifying and dealing with prejudices, they are sneaky in their persistence..

It is when I base my happiness upon the accomplishing of my goal or impose an emotional quality to its accomplishment that I create for myself the condition of suffering. Perfectly stated!!! Now, if we could get those depressing Buddhists to understand it, they might finally get off that annoying wheel..

Be well...

[Scott R. Brown]

Greetings..


Hi Scott: It took me quite a bit of exploration to finally understand that the illusion was to contrive meanings other than what was directly in front of me.. the hard work is identifying and dealing with prejudices...

Hi TaiChiBob.

I am of the view the one cannot escape illusion. Attempting to “identify and deal with prejudices” is nothing more than being bound by another prejudice and to not recognize this is to be bound by illusion! To me, to believe we are capable of perceiving without prejudice (a unique and personal filter) or without creating our own illusion is itself an illusion. Prejudice and illusion are part of the game. They are inherent within Tao and therefore human existence. Prejudice and illusion are not to be avoided or negated, but to be accepted and embraced without attachment.

Here is why I consider prejudice to be inherent within existence: While the spiritual masters have a certain consistency to what they teach and profess there is always some level of variation between their teachings. Even teachings of students who learned from the same teacher or the teachings from master directly to student possess variations. This cannot be entirely attributed to the use of the principle of “useful expedients”. Variation occurs because direct experience is filtered through each individual’s unique perspective of mind. This means it could be said that each of us is an unique facet of the jewel of Tao reflecting a different, though sometimes similar, aspect. We each of reflect a different aspect of Tao according to our personal filter and this is inherent within creation/Tao. If direct perception were to be an identical experience for every sentient being, then there would be no need or reason for any variation at all. Variation is what Tao is all about; it is variation founded upon an unified yet amorphous ever changing and ever re-definable source!

Illusion is inherent within the system/Tao and is made apparent anytime we think we are beyond or above illusion. The closest we may come to being above or beyond illusion is to recognize we will always be bound by illusion. Once we accept that our experiences are inherently filtered through our unique perspective, and this is an illusion projected by us upon Tao, we are free to choose not to become emotionally attached to our personal view. To recognize we are bound by illusion regardless and cannot escape it is as free from illusion as it is possible to be.

So, variation in interpretation is inherent to the system/Tao. What is important is to recognize that no matter how much we try we will always have a prejudiced view and illusion is nothing more than not recognizing that no matter what I do my personal view is still illusory. The key then is non-attachment to my own personal version (prejudiced view) of the illusion!;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

LOL, Scott.. that was good.. but, i intended to communicate that it wasn't the elimination of prejudice but the appropriate dealing with it that is the issue.. and, for the record, i have a limited view of the concept of "illusion".. i think too much is made of it, too broadly applied.. illusion is self-induced and by recognition of it it ceases to be illusion and becomes just another attribute or tool.. absent the recognition, the dog will infuriate itself chasing its tail.. upon recognition, tail-chasing becomes great fun..

Be well...

[Scott R. Brown]

AAHHHHHHH!! I see! Good point and of course I agree!:)

[Ronin22]

There are those who do not choose to avoid desire, but to avoid excessive attachment. It is actually attachment to the results of actions or attachment to desire that is the cause of suffering and not desire specifically. To want or intend to do anything is to desire (which I know you understand), so if I choose to apply myself to any pursuit for any purpose at all I am desiring. It is when I base my happiness upon the accomplishing of my goal or impose an emotional quality to its accomplishment that I create for myself the condition of suffering.

.



Scott &TCB
Were you guys philosophy majors in school or actually taoists or buddhists? Maybe just spiritual?




Also, let me see if I have understood the quote above. In a real life situation, say a girl has a ex boyfriend that she can't get over so she has desire for him but that desire is just that, desire that is present but what she has attachment to which is leading to her suffering is the actual emotional attachement that comes along with that desire?


Maybe not that best example


Thanks
Christopher

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott &TCB
Were you guys philosophy majors in school or actually taoists or buddhists? Maybe just spiritual?

Also, let me see if I have understood the quote above. In a real life situation, say a girl has a ex boyfriend that she can't get over so she has desire for him but that desire is just that, desire that is present but what she has attachment to which is leading to her suffering is the actual emotional attachement that comes along with that desire?

Hi Ronin22,

This is not really stuff you learn by taking a few classes in college. It is more of a way of life. It has Buddhist and Taoist origins, but it is not really a religious view. It is more philosophical in nature. Think of it as principles of life that may be investigated and tested by each individual and may be demonstrated to provide beneficial consequences. It is sort of a karmic process: Following a beneficial process provides advantages results!

Philosophical Taoist thought is scientific in nature. Ancient Taoist thinkers observed life and nature according to a holistic perspective. They observed underlying patterns. From patterns they devised principles to follow. They applied the principles and observed the results. Philosophical Taoism is something you may learn, apply and then evaluate the results for yourself. The proof of the effectiveness of this system of thought may be demonstrated by each person individually through their own investigation and practice.

A similar process occurred with Buddhism. Buddha investigated the effectiveness of the religious methods of his day and found them to only lead to greater attachment and bondage which creates emotional suffering. He devised a rather scientific method of transcending suffering. It is not the only method available, but he did a very good job of identifying the origins and nature of emotional suffering in humans and of providing an effective remedy. Unfortunately over the centuries many of the methods have become ossified into systems that lead to attachment on the part of the participants. The ritual and process, for many, has become more important than the ultimate goal.

Desire is nothing more than wanting something. If I want a glass of milk, that is desire. Suffering occurs when I attach myself emotionally to what I desire or want. When I say to myself, “I can’t or won’t be happy unless I have my milk!” the insistence that I MUST have my milk in order to be happy is the attachment. We do this mostly subconsciously and it is partially a product of social conditioning and partially a product of the nature of the mind. Our temperament, our family upbringing and our culture strongly influence the depth and strength of our attachments as well.

We create the opportunity for suffering to occur within our minds through attachment. We create a condition wherein we will not allow ourselves to be happy because we impose arbitrary conditions upon our happiness which we think are based in the external world, but in actuality originate within our minds. If the condition we arbitrarily set is not met, then we will not allow ourselves to be happy. A “centered” person does not rely upon external conditions for their equanimity. External conditions affect them and they react to them, but they do not allow external conditions to disturb their emotional balance.

A centered person does not seek to change the world to meet their own arbitrary demands. They understand that their equanimity is determined by what is inside them and not by what is outside of themselves. The world is bigger than we are! There is no requirement for the world meet our expectations, yet most people rant and rave and whine and cry when the things of the world fail to meet their expectations. We cannot change the world in many cases, but we can change ourselves. We can change the way we choose to perceive and experience the world and therein lays our equanimity. As long as we unreasonably expect the world to conform to our expectations we are doomed to suffer emotionally because the world does not care about our arbitrary demands!

When we live in equanimity we do not allow phenomena of the world system to disrupt our balance. We recognize events as occurring without emotional attachment to the meaning or consequence of the event. This does not mean we do not recognize the human suffering of others or accept behaviors and actions that are clearly inappropriate. There is much confusion concerning the relativity of right and wrong, good and bad when novices attempt to apply poorly understood Eastern principles to their lives. Just because one does not react emotionally to evil (which is a condition of non-attachment to evil) does not mean they do not recognize it as evil. It means they do not allow the evil in the world to disturb their emotional equilibrium. A person who has transcended attachments would perceive and interpret events each according the circumstance. They would not allow emotionalism to disturb their equanimity, but that does not mean they would accept or interpret all actions or behaviors equally. They would not justify or rationalize clearly evil or inappropriate acts as being of equal validity or value as good, productive or beneficial acts, which many mistakenly believe.

We tend to blame others for our suffering, but it actually comes from within ourselves. The pain the woman feels over the loss of her boyfriend is due to her emotional attachment to him. She received her happiness according to the validation she received by feeling loved. The source of validation or feeling of being loved was determined by an outside source she has no control over. As a consequence when the source of her happiness was removed she experienced emotional suffering. When our happiness depends upon phenomena from outside ourselves suffering follows as a natural consequence. It cannot be avoided if we choose to live life this way, but it may be transcended if we choose to make the effort.

[Ronin22]

Hi Ronin22,

This is not really stuff you learn by taking a few classes in college. It is more of a way of life. It has Buddhist and Taoist origins, but it is not really a religious view. It is more philosophical in nature. Think of it as principles of life that may be investigated and tested by each individual and may be demonstrated to provide beneficial consequences. It is sort of a karmic process: Following a beneficial process provides advantages results!

Philosophical Taoist thought is scientific in nature. Ancient Taoist thinkers observed life and nature according to a holistic perspective. They observed underlying patterns. From patterns they devised principles to follow. They applied the principles and observed the results. Philosophical Taoism is something you may learn, apply and then evaluate the results for yourself. The proof of the effectiveness of this system of thought may be demonstrated by each person individually through their own investigation and practice.

A similar process occurred with Buddhism. Buddha investigated the effectiveness of the religious methods of his day and found them to only lead to greater attachment and bondage which creates emotional suffering. He devised a rather scientific method of transcending suffering. It is not the only method available, but he did a very good job of identifying the origins and nature of emotional suffering in humans and of providing an effective remedy. Unfortunately over the centuries many of the methods have become ossified into systems that lead to attachment on the part of the participants. The ritual and process, for many, has become more important than the ultimate goal.

Desire is nothing more than wanting something. If I want a glass of milk, that is desire. Suffering occurs when I attach myself emotionally to what I desire or want. When I say to myself, “I can’t or won’t be happy unless I have my milk!” the insistence that I MUST have my milk in order to be happy is the attachment. We do this mostly subconsciously and it is partially a product of social conditioning and partially a product of the nature of the mind. Our temperament, our family upbringing and our culture strongly influence the depth and strength of our attachments as well.

We create the opportunity for suffering to occur within our minds through attachment. We create a condition wherein we will not allow ourselves to be happy because we impose arbitrary conditions upon our happiness which we think are based in the external world, but in actuality originate within our minds. If the condition we arbitrarily set is not met, then we will not allow ourselves to be happy. A “centered” person does not rely upon external conditions for their equanimity. External conditions affect them and they react to them, but they do not allow external conditions to disturb their emotional balance.

A centered person does not seek to change the world to meet their own arbitrary demands. They understand that their equanimity is determined by what is inside them and not by what is outside of themselves. The world is bigger than we are! There is no requirement for the world meet our expectations, yet most people rant and rave and whine and cry when the things of the world fail to meet their expectations. We cannot change the world in many cases, but we can change ourselves. We can change the way we choose to perceive and experience the world and therein lays our equanimity. As long as we unreasonably expect the world to conform to our expectations we are doomed to suffer emotionally because the world does not care about our arbitrary demands!

When we live in equanimity we do not allow phenomena of the world system to disrupt our balance. We recognize events as occurring without emotional attachment to the meaning or consequence of the event. This does not mean we do not recognize the human suffering of others or accept behaviors and actions that are clearly inappropriate. There is much confusion concerning the relativity of right and wrong, good and bad when novices attempt to apply poorly understood Eastern principles to their lives. Just because one does not react emotionally to evil (which is a condition of non-attachment to evil) does not mean they do not recognize it as evil. It means they do not allow the evil in the world to disturb their emotional equilibrium. A person who has transcended attachments would perceive and interpret events each according the circumstance. They would not allow emotionalism to disturb their equanimity, but that does not mean they would accept or interpret all actions or behaviors equally. They would not justify or rationalize clearly evil or inappropriate acts as being of equal validity or value as good, productive or beneficial acts, which many mistakenly believe.

We tend to blame others for our suffering, but it actually comes from within ourselves. The pain the woman feels over the loss of her boyfriend is due to her emotional attachment to him. She received her happiness according to the validation she received by feeling loved. The source of validation or feeling of being loved was determined by an outside source she has no control over. As a consequence when the source of her happiness was removed she experienced emotional suffering. When our happiness depends upon phenomena from outside ourselves suffering follows as a natural consequence. It cannot be avoided if we choose to live life this way, but it may be transcended if we choose to make the effort.




Scott

Thanks for the reply, I think I'm starting to understand the process now and I really appreciate the time you put into your posts



Of course, I have more questions. I know you mentioned how evil and suffering are recognized yet will not effect a centered individual but how does one transcend this? It almost sounds as though one has to be emotionless to cope with the events that take place in our lives. I don't know how somebody would transcend the suffering when a loved one passes on or a divorce. Or if you see a friend who is suffering would the view be to think well it's not me so it shouldn't effect me which would sound like a lack of compassion.

There is also the question of failure and self doubt. How does one cope with these through the eastern view? You mentioned putting a emotional reaction to obtaining a goal would set up a chance for that person to experience suffering. If the goal is not met is the view to accept it as a lesson and just move on?


I realize it sounds as though I'm asking for personal advice and I'm not but this subject is pretty interesting and it's nice to have a different view on common problems that face people in the western society.

Also, I know you put a lot of time into your posts so if you have had enough of my questions and feel it's to in depth to get into typing on a message board just let me know:)

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ronin22,

Thank you for your consideration of my time and appreciation for my comments. I do not mind taking the time to respond to your questions as long as you have the patience to wait until I have the time to do so. They are questions worthy of consideration!

As TCB's subscript suggests, ""the teacher that is not also a student is neither".

Your questions provide an opportunity for growth for both of us and any other interested readers or participants who choose to respond to them! Your questions are ones I have long considered myself. As you might imagine, I do have answers to them, so I do not mind commenting on them. For me, it is nice to find someone interested in the same questions I have pondered.

This is my one day off a week and I must divide my time between various responsibilities, so I will respond as time permits. Thank you for your patience.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ronin22,

Please let me preface with the comment, I am not claiming to be an all knowing master of life here. Your questions are ones I have long pondered myself. It is only MY perspective. I do not consider it THE defining description of life. It is ONE perspective out of many, but it is a perspective that has some value, meaning, and apparent truth for one who, interested in the topic, has searched, studied and learned SOME things. SOME things should not be confused with ALL things. Having said that, there may be others who have information and experiences to offer that would contribute value to this discussion as well.


I know you mentioned how evil and suffering are recognized yet will not effect a centered individual but how does one transcend this?

We must change the manner in which we choose to perceive life in order to accomplish this purpose, or goal.

Painful experiences are created by us and are determined by how we choose to interpret the events that occur in our lives. One of the examples I frequently use is “The Rainy Day Metaphor”:

A man works hard at his job. The hours are long and he misses his family. He decides to take some time off to spend with his wife and children. He chooses a weekend and intends to take them out for a special picnic. On the day of the picnic a rainstorm arrives and his special day with his family is ruined. He feels disappointed at having his special day ruined by the rain. His feelings of disappointment will be proportional to his emotional attachment to having the day proceed according to his preconceived plan.

In the same town a farmer lives. His crops are dying because of the lack of rain. Less rain means fewer crops, which means a more difficult time paying bills which creates a hardship for him and his family.

The rainy day is a joyous occasion for the farmer, but a disappointment for the hard working father. There is no difference in the day, but there is a difference in how each man interprets the day. The experience they each have is based upon what THEY bring to the event NOT on the event itself.

The hard working father can still salvage his day by merely changing his perspective, that is, the way in which he chooses to interpret the meaning and effect of the rain on his preconceived goals. This is something he has control over if he is aware that it is not the rain, but the attitude he has towards the rain, the ruins his day. By changing his perspective and expectations, that is NOT CLINGING to his preconceived plans, his experience changes and so does the value and meaning of the day.

So, step one is to understand that the value and meaning of our experiences are determined by our attitudes and expectations; our perspective towards the events that occur to us.

We each have a worldview and a self-concept. These two contribute in determining how we interpret the experiences of our lives. Our worldview and self-concept are created and influenced by a number of factors: inherent temperament, culture, family environment, schooling, and religious learning, etc. all influence how we view ourselves and life. These factors condition our minds, that is, they train or program our minds in how we will perceive and interpret our experiences. For the most part this training is imposed upon us since childhood and we have little to no control over what our basic conditioning towards life will be. The only quality we have that is not influenced by our environment is our inherent temperament.

The basic conditioning we receive is necessary when we are young. We must understand the social rules of our environment. It provides a basic context for us to fit into our family, our culture and our society. When we become adults, if we don’t question the validity of our basic conditioning, that is, examine how it contributes to the quality of our experiences, we become enslaved to the consequences that result. If one person accepts life after death and another believes that all individuality disappears at death, they will interpret the death of a loved one differently and therefore the value and the meaning of the death will be experienced differently. The difference in their experiences is determined by the worldview they accept as true, by what each individual brings to the experience. Our worldview and self-concept determine how we interpret events. Our interpretation of events determines the quality, value, and meaning of those events for us.

So the quality of my experience of suffering or of evil or of any other event in life is determined by my interpretation, my perspective towards each. I may choose to react in a manner that allows me to transcend the unpleasant experiences by retraining my thinking and my worldview. Once I do this the natural consequence is a change in the quality of my experiences. There is no mental forcing involved, a change in perspective results in the natural consequence of a changed quality of experience.

The way we change our conditioning is to first realize that it is our own attitude that creates the pleasing or displeasing experience and then choose to change our perspective. Next we must practice perceiving according to the new perspective. This takes time to accomplish. Our present unproductive view of life has a mental momentum so to speak and we must overcome that momentum. This momentum originates from years of conditioning to think according to a specific pattern. It is this negative momentum that causes many to be discouraged. It is difficult and takes time and persistence to change a worldview we have been conditioned to follow since birth. An example I use is the, “Pushing the Car Metaphor”. When I am pushing a car down the road, if I want to get it moving in the opposite direction, I must first stop its present momentum. I must move to the front of the car and use a great deal of energy to overcome that momentum. Once the car has stopped it takes more energy to overcome the static momentum, but once I get it moving in the preferred direction it becomes easier and easier to move and keep moving as time goes by! It is the same with changing our worldview and self-concept. It takes a lot of effort in the beginning. It is easy to get discouraged because we don’t see any benefit from all of our effort in the beginning, but if we persist then it we will eventually perceive beneficial results which will encourage us and, as with all things, it will eventually become easier to do with time.

There are a few methods we may use to change our perspective. One is simple but rather difficult use effectively in all circumstances. It works best under circumstances where our mental programming is less entrenched. With this method we simply realize we have an unproductive perspective and choose to change it. This works for simpler attachments such as in the rainy day metaphor. Once the man realizes it is his attitude that is ruining the day and not the rain he can choose to let go of the attachment to his original goal and choose another means to spend quality time with his family.

For worldviews and self-concept views that we have deep attachments too we must recondition our minds. To accomplish this we use mental exercises to effect the necessary changes. Affirmations and meditation are both effective. Both will recondition the habits of thought that have created our present worldview. Affirmations are pretty basic, but is takes a little instruction to create effective ones. Meditation should be considered a mental exercise and there are a few methods that are effective. I have written on this previously. I will search through my record and post the methods at your request. There is a process that occurs when using meditation and affirmations. This process takes time, effort and a real desire to improve our condition. As I have previously stated, once our perspective has changed the quality of our experiences change as a natural consequence of itself.

There would clearly be a difficulty for some to re-define evil and thus be unaffected by it This should be considered an advanced state of being. One must acquire a foundation of understanding and practice in order to understand and apply this perspective. The explanation of how this may be accomplished is for another post, for now let me address your question concerning emotionlessness.

[Scott R. Brown]

It almost sounds as though one has to be emotionless to cope with the events that take place in our lives. I don't know how somebody would transcend the suffering when a loved one passes on or a divorce. Or if you see a friend who is suffering would the view be to think well it's not me so it shouldn't effect me which would sound like a lack of compassion.

By changing your perspective (interpretation) of life and events you do not lose all human emotions, only the unproductive ones. I presently work as a nurse. I see more death in a year than most people see in a lifetime. I feel great compassion for the loss others feel when their family member passes away. Sometimes it brings tears to my eyes to see their pain and suffering. I offer a hug or a kind word of encouragement when I can. When my father died I did not experience the same sense of loss as many I have witnessed because I have a different perspective on life and death. Also my attachment to my father was not of the same quality as that of most individuals to their parent.

When it comes to personal loss, there are times when I feel pain, but I recognize that it is my attachment to what I wanted that is the cause. I wanted something I did not get. That is the process of life that causes pain. I recognize this and make the internal adjustments to my attitude as is required or desired under the circumstances. I do not feel guilty for feeling natural emotions, however. I do not say to myself, “I know better than this! I SHOULD’NT feel this way!!” I take responsibility for my feelings. I recognize I feel them due to my attachment. I experience the feelings or not as I choose at the time and according to the intensity of my attachment to my arbitrary desire. When I have resolved my feelings, I reflect on the internal process that created the feelings in order to learn and grow from the experience.

I have two boys. If one or both of them died I would feel great sorrow, but I would also understand that it is my attachment to them that is the cause. I would allow myself to mourn, but understand that at some point it will be time to let that attachment go. Once I let it go it does not mean I would never miss my boys. It means the pain of the loss will disappear. I happen to have a belief system that accepts existence after death. I view life as a play or a drama. We are all merely actors acting our parts. When we are in a movie theater we accept a suspension of disbelief and pretend for a few hours that what is taking place is real. Within that context we may experience joy and sorrow, anger and exhilaration. After the movie we know the bad guy was only playing a part, the innocent child did not really die. All the actors continue to exist following the movie. During the movie we felt a range of emotions. We chose to participate in the drama. When it was over we remembered ourselves and the reality of our lives. We are relatively unchanged at the core of our being because of the movie. To me such is life! When we allow ourselves to become too preoccupied with the roles we play and the roles others play we lose the perspective that reminds us it is all just a game. It is those who get too wrapped up in the game that suffer the most. They are enslaved by their narrow perspective of life and become trapped in an unproductive cycle.


There is also the question of failure and self doubt. How does one cope with these through the eastern view? You mentioned putting a emotional reaction to obtaining a goal would set up a chance for that person to experience suffering. If the goal is not met is the view to accept it as a lesson and just move on?

Self-doubt is a result of lack of experience. You have full confidence in your ability to walk. This is because you are an expert at walking. But this was not always the case! When you were a child you fell down many times. You had the encouragement of parents and other family members telling you, “You can do it!” You also saw the advantages of walking and witnessed just about everyone else succeeding at the task. As with walking, practice and persistence will allow you to succeed in personal growth or any other goal in life. As it is said, “A quitter never wins, and a winner never quits!” as long as you don’t give up you are sure to make some kind of progress. However, we must attempt to avoid overly attaching ourselves to progress. Life is a process that occurs according to the fullness of time. We must accept the process and accommodate ourselves to it and not demand that Tao accommodate itself to us. If the goal is to progress and succeed then we must learn the tools and the process and follow the processs, not fight against it! Fighting against the process works against our purpose and expends energy to a lesser profit. I say a lesser profit because even walking down a wrong path, stumbling along the way, or seemingly wasting time and energy all have lessons to teach us in the end. If we learn the lessons then the time and effort was not wasted.

Self-doubts tend to be prevalent when we are adults because there are fewer others available to encourage us, as it was in our childhood. There are also fewer to set an example; seeing an example of another who has succeeded at our chosen goal is always an encouragement. Hearing of the trials and tribulations they went through along the way informs us that the trials and tribulations may be overcome and this provides encouragement as well. Many times other people may feel threatened by your growth and progress and seek to undermine you or inhibit your growth. These individuals should be avoided. One of my mottoes and always been, “I would rather have no friends, than the wrong friends!” If you cannot find others that will encourage you along your chosen goal, why saddle yourself with anchors to hold back your progress?

Discouragement is part of the process of learning. We all fall down. Study of the experiences of life eventually teach us that often more learning results from our mistakes then from our successes. Mistakes reveal to us areas where we need to improve. If all we had was success we would tend to become complacent and further progress or growth would be in jeopardy.

There is a process to learning. At some point we become dissatisfied with our present condition of being. It need not involve suffering, but there is a feeling within us of dissatisfaction. This dissatisfaction motivates us to seek change. I call this feeling disequilibrium. Disequilibrium is merely being out of balance in some manner. When we are in a state of disequilibrium we are motivated to return to equilibrium/balance. Disequilibrium motivates us to find the way to return to equilibrium. In the process of returning to equilibrium we change in some manner. Those who are practiced in the process of change seek to ensure the change is productive, that is, in a manner that provides an overall benefit for us. When we have met our challenges and changed in some productive manner we are returned to a state of equilibrium. This is a period of rest and recuperation so to speak. Eventually we will become dissatisfied once again and the process begins anew. This is a repeating cycle of life.

This is enough to digest for now. I will be happy to entertain any follow up questions you may have.

[Ronin22]

Scott

Thank you so much for the detailed post and for sharing some of your personal information on a deep subject and I do realize that this is only your perspective on the eastern view and agree that it would be great to hear others philosophy on the subject

I'm still digesting what has been written ( just finished it before I wrote this) and feel I might have more questions and yes it would be great to read what you previously wrote about meditation and affirmations. If you like, fell free to PM them to me.



In appreciation,
Christopher

[Ronin22]

Hi Scott

I've thought about what you have written and think I have a basic understanding about how desire creates the condition of suffering. Now, for me at least, is the difficult task of trying to apply and recognize these perspectives in differnet expierences that arise. As you said it will be like pushing a car in one direction for a time then try to reverse the momentum. My feeling now is that I might overthink these situations or try to pick apart something that isn't really there.

I'm wondering how eastern philosophy views worry or anxiety. In one sense it seems to me it can be a byproduct of desire such as someone who is worriying about loseing their job. The desire would be to keep the job and the attachment would be great causing great suffering if they were to be fired or let go. This attachment is the cause for worry. On the other hand their might not be a attachment to the job but there is the worry in finding another to support them selves. So are they one in the same?



I think I'm having trouble understanding how to "go with the flow"




Christopher

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Chris: I certainly don't have Scott's gift of communication, or likely even his grasp on the subject.. but, i will try to explain my perspective..

The desire would be to keep the job and the attachment would be great causing great suffering if they were to be fired or let go. This attachment is the cause for worry. On the other hand their might not be a attachment to the job but there is the worry in finding another to support them selves. So are they one in the same?While my explanation may seem off-the-wall, i have found it useful in my own experience.. More than the job/no job relationship, there is the life-style to which i have become accustomed (attached).. in the grand scheme of things i realize that much of what i take for granted (firmly attached) is actually that which motivates my desire/attachment/loss syndrome.. and, when i realize that i have constructed a reality that demands so much maintenance (job/money) i have accepted the inherent pit-falls.. So, i have developed a process of simplifying and scaling down my current life-style.. determining what is necessary, really desriable, somewhat desirable and, the plainly frivolous.. the process of elimination is painful (my own doing, of course, hehe) but.. the post-partum liberation is, well.. Liberating....

"Going with the flow".. is a bit like seeking to acquire a desirable thing.. and, when obstacles present themselves finding alternatives.. either alternative methodologies for acquisition or alternative objects.. in either case, suffering is manifested when we doggedly pursue that which eludes our pursuit.. when we swim against the current.. like the monkey grasping the date in the gourd, we are trapped by our own grasp.. When we determine that we won't be satisfied until we have a particular goal, we have set several things in motion.. we have affirmed that we don't have what we want, we have created suffering by accepting the burden of being unsatisfied, and.. importantly, we begin to limit alternatives as we focus more on the object of our desires, we obsess.. critical to mitigating this process is an awareness of the difference between need and desire. but, that's all for now, i have a business to attend to.. see, desire/attachment/business/etc... aarrrgghhhh....

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Christopher,

First please let me be clear that there is no real east/west to this information. The mind of each of us functions according to similar patterns, so anyone from any culture or era would discover these same principles if they took the time to introspect their mind. There will be some variation in interpretation according to culture and era since this influences the perspective with which one perceives the information, but it is essentially the same information regardless of the perspective from which it is communicated.


My feeling now is that I might over think these situations or try to pick apart something that isn't really there.

Yes, it does take some practice. It is ok to pick something apart even if you don’t get much information out of the process. That is how we learn. There is no harm done and it is valuable practice. Most people have no idea what is contained within their minds. The only way to find out is to look. If you over react that is fine too, you will learn from the experience and improve your skills over time.


I'm wondering how eastern philosophy views worry or anxiety. In one sense it seems to me it can be a byproduct of desire such as someone who is worrying about losing their job. The desire would be to keep the job and the attachment would be great causing great suffering if they were to be fired or let go. This attachment is the cause for worry. On the other hand there might not be a attachment to the job but there is the worry in finding another to support themselves. So are they one in the same?

The source of the anxiety may have separate origins, but the process whereby the suffering occurs is the same which is clinging to an attitude or belief that is unproductive.

Worry and anxiety are due to attachments. The issue is internal and has little to do with the job. The source of anxiety is found within the mind. If we ask ourselves, “Why am I anxious?” we can begin to learn the cause of the anxiety. We cannot discover its source if we do not search for it. The connection of the feeling to the source occurs as a cause and effect relationship, but it does take practice to discover the connections. We can discover the cause if we start with the feelings and introspect into the connections between the feeling and the beliefs that create it. Often there is more then one cause. Often the feelings we have occur as a confluence of more than one cause.

To be without anxiety we must search for the cause through introspection. The cause is generally associated with the conditioning we received when we were raised, although it may be influenced by brain trauma, or organic brain syndrome which is a chemical imbalance normal genetic variance or due to drugs or alcohol. It may also be caused by a principle we accept as TRUE without actually questioning its validity or usefulness but did not originate as childhood conditioning.

As an example, a parent who constantly finds fault with or constantly berates their child will influence the child to develop an attitude of insecurity. The person may grow into an adult who finds fault with everything they do because they have been conditioned by their parent to believe that everything they do is wrong or not good enough. Since many times children are raised to consider their personal worth (self-esteem) equal to their behavior performance, if they do not perform according to what they expect of themselves, (which is really the parents conditioning inside their head) or the expectations of others they might feel constantly insecure. Engaging in approved behaviors would make them feel good about themselves, while engaging in disapproved of behaviors would make them feel bad about themselves. Most parents raise their children using approval/disapproval of the child’s inherent worth to control behaviors. The problem with this is that it conditions into the child feelings of low self-esteem. In other words, the “child” is disapproved of instead of the “action” being disapproved of. When the child correlates their behaviors with their self-esteem it follows logically that behaviors as adults they believe don’t measure up to a specific standard will make them feel self-disapproval towards themselves. So if I behave in an inappropriate manner I may punish myself by berating myself and the associated feeling of insecurity will follow because the inappropriate behavior and disapproval were associated together when I was young. These behaviors occur spontaneously and subconsciously when we are adults and we do not know why we feel the way we do, but they originated when we were children with the way we were treated and corrected by our parents or other significant adults.

This applies to the question of fear of losing a job because one origin of the fear may be from feelings that we are inadequate to perform the job according to specific standards. When we associate the inadequacy with the self-disapproval conditioned into us from childhood by our parents then the consequence is we are likely to project that attitude onto our boss who is in a sense a surrogate parent. If we feel we cannot perform up to the expectation of the boss or of our feeling of expectation that we project onto the boss then we will create within ourselves a feeling of self- disapproval. This is just one possible scenario describing how our conditioning affects our beliefs and how our beliefs will determine our feelings.

There are other influences that affect our anxiety as well. They still have to do with conditioned attitudes. They originate from our culture and/or family. The expectation of material success comes from our society and our family’s expectations, but these are still conditioned into us. My wife comes from the Philippines. Her family has 7 children. All of them have college degrees. This was a family expectation. However, in their culture it is often difficult to get a well paying job even if you have a college degree. The expectations of a college degree are a bit different in the Philippines then here in America. There is no excessive expectation in her culture that one will become financially secure just because one has a college degree. What is considered a “need” for normal daily life is also different. When I was in the Philippines I saw children taking bird baths in the street gutter and I observed one of her cousins doing her dishes in a plastic pan next to the street gutter. This is considered normal behavior in her culture. In America we would consider it extreme poverty. However, it is in truth whatever you decide it will be. There is nothing unfortunate about their conditions to them, but according to our standards it would be an unfortunate situation.

So what we bring to the circumstance determines the quality of the experience. If I believe I need a certain type of job, amount of pay, living situation, etc. to be happy then I create the standards that will either make me happy or disappoint me if I remain attached to those standards. We must recognize that the standards we cherish are arbitrary and it is these standards we cling to that create our happiness or unhappiness.

If I lose my job, I live in fear of losing my standard of living, my status or other values that change when a job is lost. If I was fired I may experience some self-concept issues as well since I may view myself as being inadequate according the fact that I may believe an inadequate person gets fired. These evaluations of the circumstances originate within my self. They are standards that are arbitrary; they were accepted by me and not questioned for their validity. Therefore, I am subject to them and they control me instead of me determining them for myself. We don’t tend to notice our unproductive feelings until we become unhappy. This is what I mean when I say conflict creates change/growth, or disequilibrium creates change/growth. The fact I am unhappy creates a conflict within me. This is a disharmony. Disharmony is unpleasant. As a human being my tendency is to avoid unpleasant experiences. Therefore, I am motivate to discover means to avoid being unhappy. In the process of this discovery and implementing the solutions to alter my condition, I change. If I have been wise and applied productive principles then my conditions will improve, not necessarily outwardly in a material sense, but inwardly where all the action of life takes place.

When I introspect into my mind I may discover that my arbitrary beliefs are an impediment to my happiness. When I discover this I have the opportunity to grow and free myself of limiting and unproductive beliefs. Once this occurs we find ourselves at CAUSE instead of EFFECT. A person at CAUSE takes responsibly for their life and tends to make things happen. A person at EFFECT feels like a victim and feels like life happens TO them. They feel as if they have no control over their lives. One of the keys here is to understand what you can change and what you can’t. We cannot always change our outward circumstances, but we can learn to change our inner attitudes and this changes the quality of our experiences in a more substantial manner than changing our outer circumstances. This is one of the lessons learned through the study of Tao!

[Ronin22]

TCB
Thanks, and I don't agree with you saying you don't have the gift of communication because you do. I think it's just a different delivery but the message is still there.


Scott
As always thanks for the explaination.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Christopher,

I understand my description of this process may make it appear to be quite complicated. This is not the case. It is much simpler than it appears. Consider the difficulty when attempting to explain any phenomenon that occurs as a process. Try to write out a description of how to tie a shoe or ride a bicycle. The description will be much more complicated than the actual experience. So please try not to allow a long and detailed description to be discouraging. This process is a natural process of the mind. The mind looks outward AND inward. It is just that many people have not practiced looking inward so it “appears” more complicated than it is. With practice it becomes second nature and a seemingly long drawn out process, as described on paper, occurs in an instant!

When we say that we let go of attachments we must keep in mind that we are not eliminating for all time the “use” of whatever it is we are letting go of, it means we are not clinging to it. That is, we are not holding on to something, an attitude or belief, and refusing to let it go! For example, when I have finished using a hammer I set it down. I do not carry it around in my hand all day when it is no longer serving a useful purpose. The attitudes, beliefs and feelings we have serve a useful purpose. There is a place for them in our lives. However, we do not need to carry them around with us when their usefulness has concluded. It is the attachments in our lives that no longer serve a useful function that are the cause of our suffering, our ill feelings. If we merely release the unproductive attitude or belief we are clinging too suffering dissipates “of itself”, as a natural consequence.

There are two views we may consider to accomplish this task. The method I have described is one and TaiChiBob has indicated another in a round about way. These two methods are identified by Hui-Neng, the 6th patriarch of Ch’an Buddhism in his sutra, “The Sutra of Hui-Neng”.

When Hung-jen, the 5th patriarch of Ch’an was preparing to pass on his authority, he asked his disciples to compose a poem to indicate their level of realization. The person who revealed a clear comprehension of the teachings would be the next patriarch. Shen-hsiu was the top disciple and instructor of all the other disciples, because of this no one attempted to compete with him. No one even tried to compose a poem. After much effort and doubts Shen-hsiu composed the following poem:

Our body is the bodhi tree,
And our mind a mirror bright.
Carefully we wipe them hour by hour,
And let no dust alight.

This poem did not demonstrate sufficient insight to gain the patriarchate. However, Hung-jen (the 5th patriarch) stated that, “…those who put its teaching into actual practice would attain great merit, and be saved from the misery of being born in the evil realms of existence.” “Great merits” are equivalent to saying “good benefits”, and “evil realms of existence” are “conditions of suffering”. So “carefully wiping away the dust” from our minds will allow us to gain benefits and reduce or eliminate our suffering. This is the process I have previous described. The process of identifying and eliminating attitudes and beliefs that inhibit our happiness and letting go of our attachment to them improves the condition of our lives! That is, gives us “good benefits” (“great merits”) and reduces the conditions of suffering (“saved from the misery of being born in the evil realms of existence”). This IS wiping the dust from our minds. But this does not take us to the final state of being, realization, satori, enlightenment, etc.

Hui-Neng was working in the kitchen of the monastery. He arrived less than a year previously. He was illiterate and considered a barbarian by the other disciples. He was basically told to go pound rice, and he went to the monastery kitchen and did just that. Upon hearing a disciple repeating the poem of Shen-hsiu he asked who wrote it and why. The disciple told him of the 5th patriarch’s challenge to the disciples. Hui-Neng had already achieved spontaneous realization and arrived at the monastery for the purpose of receiving confirmation from the patriarch. To protect this young upstart from the childish egos of the other disciples the 5th patriarch sent Hui-Neng to hide out in the kitchen until the time was right. Hui-Neng realized that the poem of Shen-hsiu was inadequate and composed his own poem:

There is no bodhi tree,
Nor stand of mirror bright.
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight?

This poem illustrated full realization and Hui-Neng became the 6th patriarch. There was a great deal of resentment amongst the other disciples and the 5th patriarch had to help Hui-Neng to escape and told him to hide out in the wilderness for some time, which he did.

In the mean time the 5th patriarch died and Shen-hsiu took over responsibility for the monastery. Ch’an Buddhism became divided between the two views illustrated by these two poems. Hui-Neng’s view, which was approved by the 5th patriarch, was that direct, spontaneous realization of one’s true nature was the path to enlightenment. Shen-hsiu’s view was to patiently wipe away all the dust (attachments and illusory views) from our mind until no dust remains. Hui-Neng’s’ method occurred spontaneously through direct perception; Shen-hsiu’s method occurred gradually through a defined process.

Hui-Neng, when asked about the gradual method of Shen-hsiu, stated that there are inherently no two ways. Both are aspects of only one way. However, for conventional purposes we speak of two ways. The gradual way is for the slow-witted and the sudden method is for the quick-witted.

How all of this applies to our discussion is this:

While we all wish we were quick-witted, in fact we are all mostly slow-witted, LOL!! So to improve our condition we may follow the method of the slow-witted, which is to continuously wipe the dust from our mirror, the method I have described above. As this process gradually improves the condition of our life we may apply ourselves to directly perceiving our “true nature”, as Hui-Neng calls it. Once we are able to directly perceive our true nature all afflictions will dissipate spontaneously, “of themselves”, as a natural occurring consequence. In the mean time we are taking active steps to bring about an improvement in our overall life. The only alternative is to not improve our present condition and hope that at some unknown time in the future we will spontaneously attain realization. In truth the odds are against us for this to occur, since if it were easy to accomplish we would see more realized beings in the world. This would inspire others to emulate them and the world would be in a much better condition than it is!

[Ronin22]

As an example, a parent who constantly finds fault with or constantly berates their child will influence the child to develop an attitude of insecurity. The person may grow into an adult who finds fault with everything they do because they have been conditioned by their parent to believe that everything they do is wrong or not good enough. Since many times children are raised to consider their personal worth (self-esteem) equal to their behavior performance, if they do not perform according to what they expect of themselves, (which is really the parents conditioning inside their head) or the expectations of others they might feel constantly insecure. Engaging in approved behaviors would make them feel good about themselves, while engaging in disapproved of behaviors would make them feel bad about themselves. Most parents raise their children using approval/disapproval of the child’s inherent worth to control behaviors. The problem with this is that it conditions into the child feelings of low self-esteem. In other words, the “child” is disapproved of instead of the “action” being disapproved of. When the child correlates their behaviors with their self-esteem it follows logically that behaviors as adults they believe don’t measure up to a specific standard will make them feel self-disapproval towards themselves. So if I behave in an inappropriate manner I may punish myself by berating myself and the associated feeling of insecurity will follow because the inappropriate behavior and disapproval were associated together when I was young. These behaviors occur spontaneously and subconsciously when we are adults and we do not know why we feel the way we do, but they originated when we were children with the way we were treated and corrected by our parents or other significant adults.




Hi Scott

The above is a quote from what you wrote a few days ago. I'm not sure I completely understand the correlation between what the conditioning was as a child to how a adult reacts from that conditioning. I think I'm just looking for some simplier examples. I understand that our insecurities as a adult can be just association from what happened as a child but do the types of events that trigger this the same? If as a child one hits another and the parent berates that child will this arise when the adult hits someone else as a adult? Or can it be any event?


Best
Christopher

[mantis108]

Nice going. :)

About the story of Hui Neng, I believe that many story tellers tend to overlook the significance of historic and cultural conventions of the 2 poems. At the same time they tend to over emphasize the enlightenment aspect yet neglect the importance of the insights of Hui Neng in the development and evolution of Chinese Buddhism - Ch'an in particular.

I believe we could learn much more from this "contest of wits" if we inclue the historic and cultural reference points back into the story. We can tell the story in a more humanistic manner. For example, mirror and Bodhi tree are of Hindum tradition that are found in the Sutras. These (Sutras and metaphors) are useful expediences (as you no doubt would term them) but it would require skills however great and small in order to read and decipher the Sutras. This would also mean that these means would limited to those who are trained in the discipline. Clearly, this is not the goal of Buddhism regardless of sect. This takes an illiterate person such as Hui Neng, to point out the fact that Buddha nature is within all sentient being (human or otherwise). The irony of the contest is that however enlightened Hui Neng was he still suffered the persecution [ bad Karma of being the wittier one. ;) ] Of course, that doesn't stop him from spreading the "truth" through out the land. The real moral IMHO is that enlightenment, whether by brushing the mirror or see no mirror, come at a price (not that we should be depressed about it) and not at all easy. It is a question of when Father Time collects (don't be bothered by it though). But the great enlightened being will ride it to new heights all the same.

Just a thought.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Christopher,


I understand that our insecurities as a adult can be just association from what happened as a child but do the types of events that trigger this the same?

There is always an association between triggers. The triggers may not be identical, but they are associated in some manner. They may be similar or related through other intermediary factors. A trigger is some kind of phenomenon that stimulates a response. Triggers are similar or identical to the phenomenon (trigger) that occurred when the response was first conditioned into the person. It may be a combination of phenomena or just one stimulus. An example of this may be illustrated by a song you hear on the radio that reminds you of some event that occurred in the past. You associate the song with the event because you heard the song when the event occurred. The song may have been heard many times with a reoccurring event or it may have occurred during an emotionally charged event that occurred only once or just a few times. The song keys in the event because you emotionally associate the song with the event. The trigger may not be obvious however; it may be a smell, an action, a combination of actions, sounds and smells, etc. A trigger will always have be associated to the original response/experience in some way.

Conditioning may occur from repeated similar events, such as episodes of being berated or abused, but they may also be repeated events of praise and hugs and kisses. When my boys were little, when they were resting on the couch watching their favorite show, I would caress the back of their neck at their hairline. They associated the caress with a relaxed feeling. I did this on purpose specifically to condition the action to the response of relaxing. Now even though one is 10 and the other is 15, I may perform the same action and they become more relaxed.

Conditioning does not occur only for negative events, but it does occur through an association between sensory input and the physical or emotional responses we experienced at the time of the conditioning event. This process is called operant conditioning in psychology, but it is as old as the first person who, in the mists of time, observed the connection between stimulus and response. When we perform repeated actions in our MA training, whether forms or techniques, we are using operant conditioning. We associate certain forms of attack with specific responses and our body reacts spontaneously as a result of this conditioning. So conditioned responses do not always provide a negative reaction, they may provide positive responses as well.

There are a few factors that influence our conditioning: the number of times the event is repeated, the emotional intensity of the stimulus, the emotional intensity of our response, and our temperament all influence how we will respond to the stimulating event. Here is an example of conditioning that took place within my family. It is a comparison of two methods:

When 9/11 occurred I was staying at my sister’s house with my two boys. My boys were 5 and 10 years old. My sister and her husband have 4 children, at the time the oldest was a boy aged 15, two girls aged 10 and a younger boy aged 6. When my sister and brother-in-law found out about the event on the news they came to my bedroom and woke me up to tell me about it; I went back to sleep. My sister and brother-in-law reacted in a highly emotional manner. They hung on the news events watching everything transpire. I watched too, but I didn’t make a huge deal out of it. To them this event was a serious crisis. Their behavior communicated to their children there was something to be worried about and the children reacted accordingly. Since I am a higher authority figure in the eyes of my boys than my sister and brother-in-law, my boys reacted according to my response, which was to be non-affected. Before anyone gets upset, I recognize that 9/11 was a significant attack on U.S. and a tragic event. However, my first responsibility as a parent is to protect my children. Children take cues from their parents. If mom and dad act like something is a crisis then it communicates to the child that fact and they will react accordingly. The reality of the event of 9/11 was that it happened thousands of miles away to other people and did not signify impending doom for my children. Since my sister and brother-in-law perceived the event from a different perspective it signaled to their children that doom was imminent. As a consequence, the emotional reaction of my boys was significantly different than my sister’s children. Her children interpreted the event as a major crisis and slept with their parents every night for a few weeks, including the 15 year old boy. My children were unaffected.

My calm response communicated to my boys that there was no immediate threat to their safety. My sister’s reaction and that of her husband frightened their children; as a consequence they felt unsafe and needed to sleep with their parents to feel secure. This episode is an example of how conditioning affects parents and their children. My sister and her husband reacted emotionally to an event that did not affect them directly. This is due to many factors in their life, but it is primarily a consequence of conditioning they have not overcome. Their conditioning now affects their children in a negative manner and conditions the children to over react to events that do not affect them directly. Even if the threat to us had been imminent, a calm, collected demeanor communicates to the children a quality of confidence and security, that it is something that can be confidently handled, that everything will be ok! A calm state of mind is better able to handle a crisis than an emotionally charged state of mind. By reacting in the manner I did it helped to condition my boys through modeling how to react to a perceived crisis, thus improving their opportunity for reacting in a more productive and confident manner should a critical event actually occur.


If as a child one hits another and the parent berates that child will this arise when the adult hits someone else as a adult? Or can it be any event?

This depends upon the strength of the conditioning the individual has experienced and what responses have been conditioned into them. The age at which the conditioning event occurred makes a difference, as well as any efforts the adult has made to recondition their responses. Reconditioning may occur through conscious effort or as a factor of other conditioning that has occurred as an adult, but not necessarily intentionally performed for the purpose of reconditioning. The younger the child the more likely an emotionally charged event will condition a response also the more emotionally fragile the person the more likely conditioning will occur.

If we took two children of the same age and the same event occurred and the same response from a parent occurred, they will not necessarily be affected in the same manner. Temperament, relationship with the parent, and pre-conditioned factors have an influence as well. A child who is constantly berated will respond differently than a child who is rarely or never berated or whose parent is just having a bad day. How the parent responds later influences the child. If I berate my child without good cause, I apologize for the behavior. We all have bad days. My children forgive me, because I have modeled forgiveness to them when they wrong me or others. This modeling is a form of conditioning as well.

A child with a stronger personality will react differently than a passive child. But a passive child may not necessarily be more easily conditioned either. A passive or quiet temperament does not always coincide with insecurity and therefore malleability. Life is a dynamic and there is just no way to determine how any one person will react with 100% accuracy. We may speculate based upon experience or statistical data, but each person and event are unique. So when it comes to behaviors we are wise to try to speak in terms of tendencies and probabilities and not absolutes. Some children that have grown up with constant abuse become abusers themselves, while others do not. But those who do not will still have conditioned responses to abuse. What is the difference between those who become abusers and those who do not? Other influences of life and inborn temperament affect how we will respond to events whether positive or negative in nature.


Or can it be any event?

There would have to be something about the phenomenon that was related to the original trigger. The relationship may not be readily apparent however. Since our responses are spontaneous and triggered by association, the new phenomenon that triggered the response by us may not be consciously known. The association between a new stimulus, the familiar stimulus and the response may have a separate association and not necessarily be something that occurred when the parent’s behavior was conditioning the child. It could be a trigger that was associated later in some manner. For example: I react in “X” manner to a “Y” stimulus. This is conditioned into me since childhood. However, as an adult when “Y” stimulus occurs sometimes “W” occurs as well. Therefore, I now associate both “Y” and “W” stimuli with the “X” response. Now I may respond with “X” whenever “Y” occurs, whenever “W” occurs, or whenever “Y” and “W” occur together.

As I said, behavior is a dynamic, there are many influencing factors. Human personality and behavior is not an exact science, it may be closer to an art, or maybe where art meets science.

[Ronin22]

There would have to be something about the phenomenon that was related to the original trigger. The relationship may not be readily apparent however. Since our responses are spontaneous and triggered by association, the new phenomenon that triggered the response by us may not be consciously known. The association between a new stimulus, the familiar stimulus and the response may have a separate association and not necessarily be something that occurred when the parent’s behavior was conditioning the child. It could be a trigger that was associated later in some manner. For example: I react in “X” manner to a “Y” stimulus. This is conditioned into me since childhood. However, as an adult when “Y” stimulus occurs sometimes “W” occurs as well. Therefore, I now associate both “Y” and “W” stimuli with the “X” response. Now I may respond with “X” whenever “Y” occurs, whenever “W” occurs, or whenever “Y” and “W” occur together.



Hey Scott

Thanks for the response. I was never really that great with algerbra though:D So it sounds like as adults we may pick up additional responses to conditioning as a child not just associated ones. Like a snowball effect? We have a response to a event that was conditioned as a child but this new event might not be exactly the same association so it gets piled on with the original association. To be introspective at this point would be difficult because you have two slightly different associations with the childhood event and I would think it would be hard to sort it out. Am I seeing this right?




Best
Christopher

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Christopher,

I want to be careful not to make this seem like it is some advanced mental ability. Remember my comment about how complicated it would seem to learn how to tie your shoes from someone’s written description of the action. Another illustration of how this “appears” to be complicated would be like describing a painting to someone. The description does no credit to the actual work of art and “appears” to over complicate a simple experience. It could take pages to describe a painting you would immediately understand the moment you look at it! Remember the description is “never” the thing itself, so this “appears” more complicated than it is. It does take some practice and as with all things practice makes perfect, but it is NOT really difficult once one has a rudimentary understanding of how to do it.

While it is possible to get a “piling on” effect, it is not actually that common in my experience. I mentioned it because it seemed to be the direction your question was pointing. The mind should not be looked at as a series of ever more complicated labyrinths that the person must work their way through; while it may appear to be so from the point of view of a beginner, it is not so in reality. Think of it as a messy house. You don’t really know where everything is because there is so much clutter. The important items are covered by the clutter. Once you take the time to clean out the clutter finding your valuables becomes easier. If we don’t take the time then conditions never improve and may actually become worse. A messy house tends to get messier, not cleaner. Clutter increases without any effort all; it takes effort, an act of will and determination, to clean out the clutter, to make Order out of Chaos. It is an act of Mind to create Order from Chaos. Thus, all experiences of life are an act of Mind!

Our minds are like a garden. If you tend your garden, your plants (Virtue, Life, Happiness, etc.) will grow healthy, full and lush. If you ignore your garden the weeds will overgrow and choke out your plants. For plants to grow healthy they must be nurtured and tended to regularly. It is thus with our minds. Our minds are the source and basis of all our experiences. To understand our mind and to use it effectively is to create a happy life! To do this we must eliminate those things that inhibit growth, while nurturing attitudes and views that contribute to healthy thoughts and mental function. Weeds and pests destroy a garden and inhibit the growth of the plants just as unhealthy thoughts, attitudes and environments inhibit our ability to live happy and mentally balanced lives.

Unhealthy thoughts and attitudes exist within our minds. They exist because of conditioning and the absent-minded manner in which we accept unhealthy concepts, attitudes and views. Unhealthy thoughts and attitudes create our suffering and unhappiness. They are the weeds of our mind. We may cultivate the weeds just as we may cultivate fruits and vegetables which are beneficial produce of a healthy garden (mind). Unhealthy attitudes and thoughts are encouraged and strengthened when we ignore their existence, are not concerned with their existence, or encourage their continuation through reinforcement and/or justification. To attempt to avoid cleaning the weeds from our mind because we think it may be too hard is only prolonging our suffering and encouraging more unhappiness and suffering to occur in our lives.

It may appear to be a monumental task; however, what is more important in life than clearing the weeds from your garden. The only thing you take with you when you die is who you are! No possessions, accolades, educational degrees, awards, etc. go with you! Who you are is all that truly matters in life! If we don’t take the time to improve who we are we are doomed to continue living in misery. The only alternative then is to take responsibility for our predicament and begin to clear the weeds from our garden. Then when it is time to go (die) we may leave better off than we would have been and hopefully help others along the way as well.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well.. i rely on the "three S's" Simplicity, Sincerity, and, Spontaneity.. they have served me well (when i can remember them)...

Upon complaining of some mundane annoyance, my mentor asked if he could "help me with that".. i asked what he meant.. he laughed and said, "it looks like your carrying too much baggage, i thought i might lighten the load".. then he said, "or, you can just put it down, let go of it".. i guess it just depends on how much we want to hold on to it.. whatever we hold onto serves us in some way, even if we assert that we don't like it.. it might be as simple as us liking to complain.. but, we only hold onto something as long as it serves some purpose, regardless of how silly that purpose might be.. That is the "simplicity" of it, we CAN just let go of it..

There is a question that i ask myself.. What undesirable thing happens if i get what i want? There MUST be something, why else don't i just conduct myself according to the necessities of acquiring my desires? This is a tricky question, but think about it. It might be as simple as i might have to put forth more effort than i am capable of or comfortable with.. in which case, i "should" abandon the desire as i have identified the issues that distance me from fulfilling it.. but, nooooo.. i have to initiate the suffering, i have to pity myself for not having that which i choose not to pursue.. weird, huh? If we accept "Radical Responsibility" for ourselves, we also admit that we are our own authors/creators.. nothing else happens to us, we happen to ourselves.. We are precisely what we have chosen to be, the beauty of it is that we are free to choose again and again..

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

When you play the piano, do you intend to play? Or do you just do? Do you have to think or does it just flow out naturally? Intent or no intent? Or intent-no-intent?

Sorry, I'll go and take my medications now... ;)

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

When we are beginners we learn following a specific, well defined method or procedure. We apply ourselves to the method using self-discipline, an act of will, INTENT. We strictly adhere to the form in order to learn the basics, intermediate and advanced principles and movements. We practice repetitiously until our body and mind internalize the principles and movements. The principles and movements are integrated into our being so to speak. Once the principles and movements are sufficiently internalized we have the ability to respond spontaneously according to the circumstance with NO-INTENT and unconstrained by form.

When the principles are internalized through years of study, application, and practice we have mastered the subject and are free to let go of the strict form or procedure for the purpose of application. This “letting go” is a mental condition that is manifested physically in our actions. If one is unable to make the transition from strict form to formlessness then they have not yet reached the highest skill. While some type of form is adhered too we are no longer bound by the form for the sake of the form. Response is without effort and even if the strict form is not adhered too there is no loss in effectiveness because the principles are applied according to the specific circumstance. This occurs spontaneously with NO-INTENT. It we attempted to conform our movements to the defined form we would be binding ourselves and we would be using INTENT.

When we are beginners WE serve the form, when we are masters the FORM serves us! That is, the form serves OUR purpose. We do not conform the circumstance to fit the form; the form spontaneously accomodates to the circumstance with no conscious effort. We use formless form! That is a form that is not specific, but universal in its application. It is a form that spontaneously occurs according the circumstance at the moment!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


When you play the piano, do you intend to play?
This is an interesting question.. When i play an instrument there is the intent to play, i don't mindlessly find myself playing without an intent to do so, yet.. as i understand the question, the act of making coherent sounds can be spontaneous and unsolicited.. where i intend to make music, the making of the music, as Scott points out, is not bound by an intention to follow prescribed forms, but.. is it not also a result of intention to abandon forms and seek the spontaneous expression? Given the range of choices from moment to moment, we choose (intend) to do a particular thing.. like choosing to play the piano rather than to go jogging..

Now, suppose a situation is imposed upon you.. a confrontation, an obstacle to a prior intention, etc.. something beyond our ability to foresee or intend/counter-intend.. in the instant of decision an intention is effected, i.e.: in a confrontation we intend to run away, or fight, or negotiate.. that intention may then turn quickly to a flow of sponatneous responses but, it begins as an intention.. My mentor would say that even in the most spontaneous conditioned responses the intention of years of training is manifested as the response and is no less a result of intention.. simply that we intended to evolve into a state of "no-intention".. I, personally, think that "intention" is a more basic and general concept than to assign it to nuanced actions like the specifics of music.. i see it more like the intention to play, the nuances of which are developed through the intention to discipline yourself toward a goal.. I do not discount spontaneity, it is my favored state of being, but i recognize that i choose/intend to attempt to live in that state..

Suppose i intend to meditate, and during the meditation i experience unintended and spontaneous sensations and insights.. are these not the result of the intention to meditate and the intention to discipline myself to develop healthy meditation methodologies? At some level, we must accept that we are our own creators, that we are, ultimately, in charge of ourselves.. The inclination to believe that we are the beneficiaries of unintended wisdoms is a double edged sword, it is also used as an excuse for the undesirable traits that we manifest occasionally.. we set the stage and write the script, that we improvise from time to time is a condition that we have permitted through conscious intentions.. To imply that we create beautiful music spontaneously is an appropriate perspective, to imply that it wasn't intended seems less appropriate.. similarly, we might find that in a self-defense situation we applied too much force "in the heat of the moment", unintended but fatal for the opponent.. it is my assertion that our discipline was not appropriately intended, leaving us with either the poorly intended manifestation of our training OR, the possibility that we expressed a darker "intention".. It is difficult to accept that we are both light and dark, it is easy to believe that the darker aspects of our duality are unintended accidents.. they are not. Regardless of the spontaneous nature of an experience, we have set that stage through years of conscious intentions.. It is quite empowering to take responsibility for ALL that we do, to know "who you are".. It's one thing to acknowledge and embrace our "dark" side, but quite another thing to Live it...

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

Hello TCBob and Scott,




When i play an instrument there is the intent to play, i don't mindlessly find myself playing without an intent to do so, yet.. as i understand the question, the act of making coherent sounds can be spontaneous and unsolicited.. where i intend to make music, the making of the music, as Scott points out, is not bound by an intention to follow prescribed forms, but.. is it not also a result of intention to abandon forms and seek the spontaneous expression?



Exactly what I mean. Without the intent to start the spark, there will be no flame. Yet interfering with the flame will dampen it. Further yet, without guiding the fire, the fire could burn wrongly and cause unforeseen damage.... hence the "intent-no-intent."

Cheers,
John

[Scott R. Brown]

Exactly what I mean. Without the intent to start the spark, there will be no flame. Yet interfering with the flame will dampen it. Further yet, without guiding the fire, the fire could burn wrongly and cause unforeseen damage.... hence the "intent-no-intent.

Now THAT is well put John!!:)

I kind of think of it as having the process so internalized that I may exercise my action without conscious effort. I have the intent to play a song, but without actually the necessity of requiring me to concentrate on doing so. It is the same process as walking and chewing gum at the same time. LOL!!

So when playing the guitar I may play a song without error, yet be holding a conversation with someone, or walking and talking with someone or any other combination of activities while by body is spontaneously, without conscious guidance, playing the guitar without error. Effortless, effort or intentless, intent! That is, intending without forcing the action to occur. I begin the process with the intent and perhaps intend for the action to continue, yet the action occurs “of itself” (tzu-jan), “without efforting’, (wu-wei)!!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: LOL! TzuJanLi is my AOL screen-name.. Tzu-Jan as "spontaneous" and Li as "random order", like the grain in wood.. interesting that you would use that phrase, an Allan Watts favorite.. it is a bit like the "intent" powers the entirity of the action, no thought required.. intention becomes completion.. as the ancestors said, intention by-passes the mind and flesh, at high levels it is all that is required.. properly intended, it is done before the mind and flesh could even conceive it.. That is, of course, if you subscribe to the notion that intent supercedes thought, that it initiates "thought", and.. can actually by-pass thought, creating action ahead of thinking the action..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Bob,

I agree! When we train our mind through self-discipline or maybe we could say we train our brain, which is our mind’s interface with physical phenomena, we use specific methods to train ourselves to accommodate to a specific task with the purpose of transcending contrived effort.

It is not going against the flow of Tao to use self-discipline to condition our mind. Self-discipline is a natural ability/phenomenon, a natural function of the mind. It is a tool we use to get us from point A to point B. In the end we are to discard attachment to the method. This does not mean we no longer utilize a method, but the method does not rule us. We recognize the method as merely a tool we use and are not bound by its limits. This allows the spirit to motivate our actions rather than the contrived effort of a limited perspective.

Contrived effort inhibits the free flow of spirit in our thoughts and actions. Allowing the free flow of spirit is something that takes practice. This is due to the conditioning from our birth to contrive our thoughts and actions. This is understood in China and Japan and why the Masters use “specific means” (contrived methods) to train self-discipline with the purpose of transcending self-discipline. The Masters understood that we are all conditioned from birth to be bound by contrived behaviors; therefore they devised methods of transcending contrived behavior through the utilization of contrived behaviors. Start with what you know and are capable of doing and finesse the result from there. As a consequence, there are contrived methods such as: The Way of Tea, The Way of Calligraphy, The Way of the Sword, The Way of Tai Chi Chuan, etc. and simply the Way of the Way which itself utilizes contrived means to transcend our conditioning!

[TenTigers]

back to intention,'cause you guys seem to have gotten caught up in that whole "The tao that can be explained is not the real tao " trap, or is it crap? hmm...
anyway, on another forum, we were dicussing more crap...

Posted - Aug 18 2006 : 19:29:08
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Yi (intention) leads hei(ch'i) this is an old adage-where there is no intentuion, there is no chi.
ok, to demystify it as much as I can, anyone who has studied even a little Tai-Chi has probably experienced this. Let's say you take the move, 'Parting the wild horse's mane" and simply are taught the sequence. Ok, so you turn, step, pivot,extend the arms while moving the stance, yadda-yadda..right? The movements are simply movements-empty, without meaning. Sure, people will do the form slowly, and because their movements are calm, relaxed, focused, their mind becomes calm, relaxed, and focused.
They will feel these results , and the euphoria that accompanies this and proudly prolcaim."Yes, I can feel the chi!"
yeah, great. mazel-tov.
No intention, no chi. What they are feeling is simply their own bodies natural response-and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Now..you learn the application-opponent strikes, you pivot,deflect and trap the strike,step into his stance,locking his arm,possibly a break, and uprooting him,he reacts, you roll it over for the second elbow break...etc. or whatever application you prefer.
NOW..having practiced this application-hands on, many, many times, and are able to perform it with reasonable skill...
you play yur form again. This time, when you do the moves, you are totally concious of what you are doing, you also visualize the movement, so that when you do the elbow break, you feel intent. Not stiffness, but sung, with conciousness. You will also feel something entirely different. You will feel this from your toes through yur body to your arms. Your conciousness will be there and your chi will be there. It is hard to put into words, so forgive me. Anyone who has done this will vouch for what I am saying. There is an entirely different feel within your body. Call it what you want.
Here's a second POV
when learning saam jien kuen(sanchin kata) or any iron body (gold bell) training, you are said to be cultivating wei-chi-guardian chi. This chi flows not in meridians so much as in the fascia and sub surface layers of the body and around the organs. As you absorb strikes, your yi or intent-or attention in this case,goes to the point of impact. Basically, all your conciousness goes there-which is natural-You're getting HIT.
Therefore, your chi flows to that point as well.
Liken this to the feeling you get when you get a hypodermic injection. You roll up your sleeve,the doctor swabs the area with the alcohol,youthen see him remove the sheath of the needle-and all your conciousness, your awareness, is focused in that one small spot on your arm, in expectation of the injection.
That is precisely the same feeling.
hmmmm, does this mean that if you develop it enough, you can prevent the needle from penetrating? Well, you guys go practice it and let me know.

so...intent? no intent?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ten Tigers,

Where there is no intention, there is no chi.

This is not accurate. Chi is everywhere in your body and flows naturally according to its nature and the needs of the body. For a properly trained person Chi will be in abundance where and when it is needed spontaneously, without need for “conscious” focus to lead it. Conscious focusing of Chi is an exercise used for developing a skill, but not required during combat.

It is true the Chi follows intention, but this occurs as a natural consequence of attention regardless of whether it is being consciously led, focused, stored, etc. Chi may be collected, stored, led, focused or projected, but it is not absent just because one is not intending any of these. Neither are any of these conditions a requirement for an effective attack or defense.

As you absorb strikes, your yi or intent-or attention in this case, goes to the point of impact. Basically, all your consciousness goes there-which is natural-You're getting HIT. Therefore, your chi flows to that point as well.

If during combat your attention (conscious focus) is drawn to the areas where you are receiving impacts then your mind is not able to respond spontaneously and fluidly to the situation. Your mind becomes bound by the impacts you are receiving and will not be free to act fluidly with true focus on your intent. What you are describing is actually a weakness NOT a strength. If “all your consciousness goes there” then you could soon find yourself in a very vulnerable position. The condition that occurs is called “zuki” in Japanese. It is the moment where your attention or focus is distracted and at its weakest. At the moment when your focus is broken a superior fighter will attack and win decisively!

The idea is to train your mind so that NONE of your consciousness “goes there”. If your training is comprehensive and you have achieved the proper level of skill, then injury or fear of injury will not limit your responsiveness or draw your consciousness away from your true intent, which is to prevail. When your mind becomes bound up by focusing on your body you cannot respond spontaneously to the actions against you. In a REAL combat situation, you will feel little to no pain and NOT respond by focusing your Chi on the impacts you receive, but will project your Chi towards your intent. This projection towards your intent however is NOT a conscious effort. Chi projects as a natural response to your intent, that is the intent to strike or move or whatever, NOT the intent to project Chi. You do not need to lead or project Chi or consciously intend it to do anything, it responds naturally to your intent. If this does not occur, then you are still a novice.

The purposes of Wei Qi Gung is to condition the body, muscles, tendons and bones to receive impacts by hardening the body and training it to become accustomed to receiving impacts. Once this is accomplished there is no need to focus the Chi to any particular area to protect it from impact. With Nei Qi Gung we practice leading, projecting etc., but when Chi is needed during an encounter it responds spontaneously, it is unnecessary to guide it or tell it where to go. You would not have time to do so under many circumstances anyway. It would be impractical and would create zuki which is your moment of greatest vulnerability.

[TenTigers]

"The purposes of Wei Qi Gung is to condition the body, muscles, tendons and bones to receive impacts by hardening the body and training it to become accustomed to receiving impacts. Once this is accomplished there is no need to focus the Chi to any particular area to protect it from impact. With Nei Qi Gung we practice leading, projecting etc., but when Chi is needed during an encounter it responds spontaneously, it is unnecessary to guide it or tell it where to go. You would not have time to do so under many circumstances anyway. It would be impractical and would create zuki which is your moment of greatest vulnerability."

I believe we are actually discussing the same thing-only I was referring to one stage in development, and you were referring to another. To achieve the above level, one usually (at least in my limited experience) begins with the aforementioned methods. In other words, I was outlining a beginner training stage, and you were describing the end results. I was not saying that there is no chi, or that during tfighting one would need to conciously direct chi, and I agree that it would be a natural and spontaneous result. This is what happens when I cut and paste, things might be taken out of context.
__________________

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ten Tigers,

Thank you for the clarification. :)