best styles of Grappling?

[TenTigers]

This isn't a troll thread, or a who is better thread. Iam interested in developing a better ground game so I would like to know what you think the pros and cons of the various schools are. So far I am interested in :
Silat
Gracie BJJ
Machado BJJ

[BigPandaBear]

The main cons I see with Gracie JJ is the insane cost of instruction. I always tell people to just learn Judo and/or Wrestling. Its a heck of a lot cheaper, and more than likely you'll run into a bjj practioner since so many cross-train in Judo and Wrestling and vice versa.

[bodhitree]

In my opinion
no-gi submission grappling.

My submission club is like that, active rolling, no belts, prepreation for competing.

[unkokusai]

I honestly don't mean this as an insult, but you are too old to start Wrestling or Judo now.

Go with BJJ

[wiz cool c]

I think Judo is the best for the street. You can become a master at throws, which is probably safer on the street. The ground work has a lot of great hold down which can be a safe way to end a fight without to much damage. And also it is cheap. I was going to a Judo school in NYC for 40$ a month. The teacher is a 6th degree black belt in his 60's and still competes.

[Samurai Jack]

I preffer judo as well. It's better to keep your feet if at all possible. Judo will teach you to do that, with the added bonus of teaching you what to do if you do go to the ground. In judo the goal of your ground game is either to restrain your opponent, or get up quickly. In BJJ once you hit the ground you tend to stay there; BIG no-no on the street. Too much chest thumping in Gracie JJ for my taste anyway.

And you aren't too old for judo either. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

And you aren't too old for judo either. :rolleyes:


50 years old starting for the first time? What are you, a hip-replacement salesman?

[Samurai Jack]

50 years old starting for the first time? What are you, a hip-replacement salesman?

Bear in mind that Ten Tigers is also in much better shape than your average 50 y.o. and an experienced MA. If it didn't make a difference, then judo teachers would all be in thier 30's.

[unkokusai]

Listen carefully, I'm talking about starting in one's 50s. No, it's not impossible or anything, but strategic choices should be made.

For example, I know people in their 50s who still wrestle, but they started 40+ years ago and know how to adjust for the issues that age bring to the situation. Someone starting wrestling at 50 is almost certainly going to get hurt alot and not get all that good at it anyway.

[wiz cool c]

If anyone is interested look up Geprge Pasiuk in NYC. He was my teacher the 6th degree black belt who still competes. This is not a hard core judo school. You won't get injured there. The people are really nice also. This club has people who are training there that are in their 50's. I can think of two off the top of my head.

[Samurai Jack]

Well, perhaps at the judo school you trained at, this would be true. In my experience judo is much easier on the body than BJJ. After reconsidering, I concede that any style can be dangerous for any beginner, at any age, if the training is not graded to the physical ability of the practitioner.

So the best policy is probably to go and see how the individual teacher trains his students.

[Shaolin]

Search not only for a school that teaches quality ground techniques but also anti-ground techniques (in other words how to avoid going to the ground).

[unkokusai]

Oh brother, let's not start in on the 'anti-grapple' myth again!:rolleyes:

[BlueTravesty]

So nothing can stop grappling? I can think of a few things off the top of my head... bullets, pointy objects, getting the he1l outta the way...

[unkokusai]

So nothing can stop grappling? ...


Yeah, better grappling. Not empty marketing slogans.

[TenTigers]

I'm not worried about getting banged around-over 30 yrs in MA, Kyokushin,Hakko-Ryu,Hapkido,and that's before I got seriously into Hung Kuen. I'm pushin 50, but I still bang, and I let my students throw me, with or without mats, makes no differnce. Why let them have all the fun?
(ok, I might have exagerrated a bit on that "makes no differnce" part!);)

I'm just looking for the most efficient, and nastiest grappling skills. I don't want to rollaround on the ground like a dog for ten minutes, I just want to bust'em up, bring'em down, ground 'n pound, or break whatever I need to and get up and go. Really, the nastiest sheite possible.
"Old age and treachery will overcome youth and vigour":cool:

[unkokusai]

I don't want to rollaround on the ground like a dog for ten minutes, :


"dog"? Why would "dog" be the animal that comes to mind for that simile? Wouldn't a snake or something make more sense?

Anyway, if you are looking to impose limits on how long you can 'allow' yourself to work in that range, you are probably not going to get much of value.

[Merryprankster]

In my experience judo is much easier on the body than BJJ.

Wow! Where are you training?!

I'm not trying to be a ****, I mean that seriously.... IME Judo is probably one of the hardest, bone crunching, joint-messing-up things out there.

Just really WOW.

Perhaps you just fall a hell of a lot better than me or something.


Re: the first question, it's really kind of a fallacious one.

There's good grappling and bad grappling. "Style" is really just shorthand for what you're going to get good at faster.

What unkokusai brings up about wrestling IS a valid point, but not so much in the sense that wrestling is inherently hard on the joints, any more than any other grappling style.... It's more that wrestlers in the United States are a tough crowd, more often than not preparing for competition, and the intensity level is usually extremely high. This, regardless of what you talk to the coach or other students about, is going to affect you. Ex wrestlers at BJJ class who haven't been doing BJJ for very long are extremely and effectively aggressive.

I tend to disagree about starting Judo now. You could definitely do that IF you pick the right place. If you find a recreational judo club, you would probably be fine. But Judo is absolutely not easy on the body. Falling hurts and when you do it wrong/don't have the opportunity to fall correctly cause it was a sweet throw, it will **** YOU UP. Just ask my surgically repaired left shoulder :P

Competition Judo is brutal and the training is correspondingly so.

BJJ tends to have far fewer jarring impacts, and injuries are usually genuine accidents as opposed to the consequences of the grappling. You are unlikely to learn any truly solid takedown skills, but that will depend on your instructor(s).

However, one often overlooked benefit of BJJ, is that you get to dictate whether or not the fight is going to STAY on the ground. I've got a brown belt in BJJ, and there are a very small number of people in this world who can keep me on the ground - not like I'm a badass, just that not many people train to KEEP you on the ground - not even Judoka, and I spend a lot of time learning how to escape. Escaping on the ground is a tremendously useful skill, and one that requires just as much practice as anything else.

That said, if you don't "want to roll around on the ground like a dog for ten minutes," then I'd say you aren't approaching this with an open mind, and kind of missing the point as well. No offense intended, but you might want to consider that.


Yeah, better grappling. Not empty marketing slogans.

May be the best post on this board in a long time.

[TAO YIN]

yeah, don't train in anything that one might consider the anti-grappling, or ways to not go to the ground myth. because all traditional systems have no clinching or pummelling. these are only found in grappling. pay attention to maybe fedor or krocop too. krocop never trains anything that one might consider anti-grappling or ways to not go to the ground myth. as the fight begins he just goes to the middle of the ring and falls down in guard. oh no, yeah he trains that too, but he also trains grappling. so...:eek:

[Merryprankster]

Falling to the guard is stupid, even if you're Nogeura.

What we are saying Tao Yin, is that Anti-Grappling is a myth. It's a stupid awful, bull**** myth perpetuated by people who don't understand grappling, or are looking to make a quick buck off people who don't want to confront reality.

What beats grappling is better grappling. That doesn't mean you have to be an overall better grappler. It means that you have to concentrate on grappling defenses and escapes, and make them better than a "good grappler." The striking oriented fighters you cited are evidence of precisely what I am talking about.

But these are, by definition, grappling. Grappling is nothing more than maniuplation of the body through grabbing with the limbs (underhook, overhooks, leg hooks, crossfaces, etc) or hands (wrist control, etc). In case you hadn't noticed, sprawling, escaping from the bottom, and other such defenses involve a significant amount of body manipulation using these types of manuevers.

It would be like practicing "anti-striking." You notice that nobody ever says such stupid crap. There is "practicing your defenses," but nothing so blatantly ridiculous as "I'm going to go learn some anti-striking."

Please.

To address your other point, nobody is suggesting that other arts don't have the clinch and takedowns. However, who is going to have perfected those things? Would you go to a Judoka to learn to kick?

Here's something to consider - what makes Chuck Liddell so dangerous? Is it his heavy hands? Well, Tank has heavy hands, but he pretty much sucks in comparison to top competition.

Oh wait....it's Chuck's exceptional wrestling background that enables him to use grappling to keep his feet to EMPLOY his heavy hands.

I suppose though, that Randy Couture defeated him once because of his "anti-striking skills." :rolleyes:

But hey, anybody on this thread - feel free to listen to who you want - either me and unkokusai, who have collectively grappled and by definition have defended against grappling maneuvers for probably 30+ years, or somebody who advocates "anti-grappling."

[jmd161]

Ten Tigers,

I went to a Swai Jiao class in Manhattan and really liked what I saw. Not that they just worked on throws, joint locks, and takedowns, but they also worked on escapes from the ground. There were a few grappling background guys working out (rolling) with them and they were impressed as well. The thing was, that when they usually took the guy's down, the Swai Jiao guys still always seemed to be in control of the grappling. Just about always falling on top of the guy and landing with force.

Once it went to the ground, they weren't down there too long before they had escaped back to their feet. I saw one of the grapplers trying that fall to guard, it looked pretty stupid against these guys. I don't know the level of the grapplers, but they seemed to know their stuff. I know one guy is training for an upcoming MMA fight I didn't hear where though.

These guys are students of James Man Chin through Grand Master Jeng, Hsing Ping. I'm not sure if you're interested in Swai Jiao since you didn't list it, just thought i'd bring it to the table. I myself did some wrestling back yrs ago, and have rolled with Bjj ppl of various levels, I was impressed with them.

jeff:)

[unkokusai]

What we are saying Tao Yin, is that Anti-Grappling is a myth. It's a stupid awful, bull**** myth perpetuated by people who don't understand grappling, or are looking to make a quick buck off people who don't want to confront reality.
But hey, anybody on this thread - feel free to listen to who you want - either me and unkokusai, who have collectively grappled and by definition have defended against grappling maneuvers for probably 30+ years, or somebody who advocates "anti-grappling."

Very well said, sir!:cool:



Although collectively we are probably representing more like 40+ years!

[Merryprankster]

I dunno - I'm only 30! :)

But to get back on point:

The right answer here is to go to a few different places offering grappling styles you think you might be interested in, and find the best instructor and best environment you can.

It's less about style and more about quality, IMO.

[unkokusai]

I dunno - I'm only 30! :)


Well, if you've got more than ten years then we ought to break the 40 mark, all of which is really not the crucial point, I suppose.

[Merryprankster]

Then we break the 40 mark :D

5 years Wrestling, 5 or 6 of BJJ...

[unkokusai]

Then we break the 40 mark :D...


Hoorah! What do we win? I mean, besides chronic pain?:D

[TAO YIN]

:cool:

Merryprankster,

I was joking, completely. Did you miss that? I was making fun of both sides of the argument. I know what you are saying. I have known. You have been saying the exact same thing for however long you have been on here, in almost every other post no less. Your opinion has never changed. But I was making fun of both sides of the argument. And if it didn't look like I was, then bam, I just changed it for you. Who cares? Don't take things so seriously. If you were not competing you would never be fighting anyway. We cool now? Im just fuggin wid ya.

[Merryprankster]

Oh.

Oops. Sorry. Touched a nerve.

I'm going to go bang my head against a wall and cry now. :D

[BlueTravesty]

What beats grappling is better grappling. That doesn't mean you have to be an overall better grappler. It means that you have to concentrate on grappling defenses and escapes, and make them better than a "good grappler." The striking oriented fighters you cited are evidence of precisely what I am talking about.

But these are, by definition, grappling. Grappling is nothing more than maniuplation of the body through grabbing with the limbs (underhook, overhooks, leg hooks, crossfaces, etc) or hands (wrist control, etc). In case you hadn't noticed, sprawling, escaping from the bottom, and other such defenses involve a significant amount of body manipulation using these types of manuevers.

It would be like practicing "anti-striking." You notice that nobody ever says such stupid crap. There is "practicing your defenses," but nothing so blatantly ridiculous as "I'm going to go learn some anti-striking."


Since you have defined the meaning of "Anti-grappling" I see your point. By "anti-grappling" I take it you and unkokusai mean all the things likes "eye gouges, and groin kicks and throat strikes, oh my!" that are touted as anti-grappling strategies. In that case, I agree, that stuff is bull, especially since NO ONE practices arts that feature those techniques prominently, or is able to practice them against resistance on a regular basis.

As far as your point about "Anti-striking" I originally THOUGHT that was the implication behind saying Anti-Grappling was a myth (i.e. "Grappling is the best way to approach a fight! Nothing beats it, therefore striking is pointless!" kinda stuff.) I apologize for my misconception. The points you've made have been good, sound ones. Thanks :)

[TAO YIN]

:confused:

Huh? Touched a nerve? I don't understand why you still don't understand? Your idea and answer, off and on as it suits you, is usually, "What beats good striking? grappling." What beats good grappling? grappling." Then you will turn around and answer good striking for beating striking every now and again. Either or, neither nor, its endless and always will be, hence cross-training. One good shot ends the fight. One good submission ends the fight. One terrible shot wins the fight. One terrible submission wins the fight. Something in the middle, a kick this way or that way.

You label it too much. Why? That is my point. Seriously, and as humbly as I can say this, nothing in this world that you could or would ever say would touch any nerve of mine. I don't live in the same box you do. Like I said, I'm just fuggin wit ya and it doesn't matter. Giving you a head check for fun because no-one else will besides the few people that you roll with and the few people that you compete with. I've looked in the mirror and I didn't care what I saw. I wasn't pleased or not pleased. Anyways,

:D

[unkokusai]

One terrible shot wins the fight. One terrible submission wins the fight.



Who said that?:confused:

[Merryprankster]

Touched a nerve on me. Not "I touched a nerve w/you."

Sigh. :eek:

But to answer the rest of it, I don't put things in boxes, nor do I advocate grappling as "the answer." It's part of a total package.

Sound delivery system - that's it. Don't care what it is somebody does/doesn't do as long as they throwdown with partners under something simulating reality - if they are claiming to "learn to fight."

Me? I suffer no illusions as to what I do. I'm mostly a sport grappler. I don't pretend to train for fighting. I'm not in this for self-defense or "reality."

My only "box" is that if you want to effectively employ stand-up striking, you need to stay on your feet, know how to get up. If you want to effectively employ grappling strategies, you need to know how to take somebody down.

That's pretty much it.

But whatever floats your boat in your post bro. Enjoy.

[Samurai Jack]

Wow! Where are you training?!

I'm not trying to be a ****, I mean that seriously.... IME Judo is probably one of the hardest, bone crunching, joint-messing-up things out there.

Just really WOW.

Perhaps you just fall a hell of a lot better than me or something.




Haha. Well, first off, I probably do fall better than most because I used to be thrown about twice as often as my peers. ;)

Anyhow, I was going to get all indignant and mention how I did judo between the ages of nine and twenty five and wrestled in high school and blah blah blah... but then I realized that in spite of the years I have practiced judo, I have no idea what I'm talking about! I've never tried the art as an older person, and my body was considerably more flexible and resilient than it is today. So I'll concede to those with more extensive grappling experience than I have. I still plan on taking judo up again though as soon as I reach shodan in aikido.

It'll be fun to be matched against young brown belts who think the old white belt will be a piece of cake... maybe I'll actually start winning for a change. Then again I may just break easier.

[bodhitree]

a judo class gave me a concussion. It is brain rattling. There are some JJ/ grappling schools where they do a lot of cross-training in Judo.
this school's teacher has a black belt in Judo (but doesn't teach it at his school because of his close proximity to his Judo masters school)
www.steelcitymartialarts.com
Sometimes BJJ schools don't train takedowns very well, it all depends on where you go.

[franco1688]

Honestly, I believe it is good to have an understanding of the grappling arts. Mainly, you should know what to look for when you're up against a grappler, how to get out of his techniques or avoid them all together. I have been training in stand up arts for about 15 years and I have trained in brazillian jiu jitsu/ MMA. Let me tell you ground fighting and grappling is not the answer to all confrontations. It should not even be an option in a real street fight, especially if there is potential for multiple opponents. What good is doing an arm bar on one guy while you have one guy stomping on your in the face and another kicking you in the ribs? If a man takes me to the ground I'm going to jam my thumb into his eye, bite his face or do whatever I have to do to get back on my feet. Sure grappling has its place, I'm a firm believer in that. Presently, all you hear about is grappling like it's something new or something. Grappling has been around every bit as long as the striking arts have. It just happens to be the "flavor of the month." Not that it's a great example of this, but look at who's winning a majority of the MMA matches and how they're winning. Chuck Liddell, hmmm, striker. Matt Hughes, sure he's great grappler, as a matter of fact he's probably one of the best wrestlers in the country in his weight class. But let me ask you, how did he beat Royce Gracie, one of the most reknown grapplers in the world? The answer is ground and pound. I'm not trying to talk **** or anything, but what good does it do knowing all the grappling techniques in the world if you get knocked out? If you do end up on the ground and someone does put you in an arm bar, I guarantee that they're going to let go when you bite a chunk out of their leg. If you plan on doing it competitively in jiu jitsu competition then I'm all for that, and I hope you have a fun time with it.

[Knifefighter]

What we are saying Tao Yin, is that Anti-Grappling is a myth. It's a stupid awful, bull**** myth

I disagree. I think there are valid forms of "anti-grappling" that are not merely defensive wrestling.

[Knifefighter]

But let me ask you, how did he beat Royce Gracie, one of the most reknown grapplers in the world? The answer is ground and pound.
Contrary to your statement, methinks you haven't done any BJJ.

Matt beat Royce with classic BJJ strategy... takedown; pass the guard; control and look for submisions in side mount; work to improve position to mount/back mount; finish on back with hooks in with either strikes or RNC.




If you do end up on the ground and someone does put you in an arm bar, I guarantee that they're going to let go when you bite a chunk out of their leg.
In my experience, people who bite when put into an arm bar usually get their arms broken.

[unkokusai]

What good is doing an arm bar on one guy while you have one guy stomping on your in the face and another kicking you in the ribs? If a man takes me to the ground I'm going to jam my thumb into his eye, bite his face or do whatever I have to do to get back on my feet.



............................................. :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

If you do end up on the ground and someone does put you in an arm bar, I guarantee that they're going to let go when you bite a chunk out of their leg.



Ugh.............................:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I disagree. I think there are valid forms of "anti-grappling" that are not merely defensive wrestling.


Did they give you a free T-shirt at the end of the seminar?

[bodhitree]

Fights go to the ground (whether we want them to or not, even someone with good 'take down defenses go there) so if you are training to be proficient in fighting, you need to train on the ground. One can have the goal of returning to their feet (as mentioned positional strategy is the heart of BJJ) or you can learn what to do on the ground. Jamming thumbs in eyes, biting, and whatever else are tactics that will get you hurt by a grappler. Seriously hurt.

[Knifefighter]

Did they give you a free T-shirt at the end of the seminar?
Actually, I could teach a seminar in it if I wanted. In a few hours, I could have most strikers shutting down the takedowns of the majority of grapplers.

[bodhitree]

Do you fight/compete? In your seminar would skilled wrestlers be allowed to try to take you down? I highly doubt it. We could all teach something with an opponent who isn't live (this is what you do if he punches 'leaves front hand hanging out there') If you don't have any real experience, please don't make such claims.

[unkokusai]

Actually, I could teach a seminar in it if I wanted. In a few hours, I could have most strikers shutting down the takedowns of the majority of grapplers.



If by 'the majority of grapplers' you mean some majority whose takedown skills were also gained in some three-hour seminar/scam, then you are probably right.

[franco1688]

I have trained brazillian jiu jitsu and I currently train in mma. I have fought bjj, mma, karate, kung fu/san shou, professional boxing fighters. An arm bar can be easily prevented, one just needs to know how to defend against it. No matter what fantasies martial arts theories create for people, whatever the "flavor of the month" may be, the only thing an opponent is going to care about when my thumb is in their eye socket tickling their skull, is "***** I gotta get this finger outta my eye." Me thinks knifefighter has never been in a real (non-competition) fight in his life if he thinks otherwise. Maybe if your lucky, someday I can give you a lesson on how to fight.

[unkokusai]

I have trained brazillian jiu jitsu and I currently train in mma. I have fought bjj, mma, karate, kung fu/san shou, professional boxing fighters. An arm bar can be easily prevented, one just needs to know how to defend against it. No matter what fantasies martial arts theories create for people, whatever the "flavor of the month" may be, the only thing an opponent is going to care about when my thumb is in their eye socket tickling their skull, is "***** I gotta get this finger outta my eye." Me thinks knifefighter has never been in a real (non-competition) fight in his life if he thinks otherwise. Maybe if your lucky, someday I can give you a lesson on how to fight.




I gotta call troll on this one.................:rolleyes:

[BlueTravesty]

I gotta agree. I thought the fellow was serious at first, but I started to turn at "If you're lucky..."

A thumb in the eye can be a valid strategy, but the reason MMA is so successful is because they train in techniques that can be practiced over and over with consistent results. Are most MMA techniques "safer" than the "too deadly" techniques? Sure! Could the "too deadly" techniques work? Some of them, and only if you could train them consistently (or have a good base to work on, which most proponents of these techniques DON'T.) Go ahead and try sparring with eye gouges, stomp kicks to the knee, elbows to the throat, biting the calf, etc. and see how fast you run out of training partners.

I personally think that as CMA evolved, the people behind its development who actually FOUGHT realized this, and that's why no CMA style "really" features these techniques prominently (unless you count Wing Chun's Biu Gee) That's why you're taught punches and kicks instead of eye gouges and throat strikes and groin kicks (oh my!!) Even forms, which when done in the air, have no potential to hurt anyone don't emphasize these techniques when compared to the basic punches and kicks.

Practicing the basics however, will give you a good base upon which to add things like groin kicks, stomps to the knee, etc. Hence why even in the street, a good grappler is to be respected. In the ring, he/she would make you tap out. In the street you could have an arm broken.

[Knifefighter]

If by 'the majority of grapplers' you mean some majority whose takedown skills were also gained in some three-hour seminar/scam, then you are probably right.

No, I’m talking good wrestlers with solid takedown skills.

[Knifefighter]

Do you fight/compete?
Yes. My current focus is on BJJ and submission grappling. I also fight twice a year in the Dog Brothers stickfighting gatherings. I have had nine MMA matches, although I haven’t competed in that venue for a couple of years now. I competed in freestyle and folkstyle wrestling many years ago, as well as boxing and Muay Thai.




In your seminar would skilled wrestlers be allowed to try to take you down? We could all teach something with an opponent who isn't live
Everything needs to be worked live. However, that wouldn’t quite be a fair test considering I have 20+ years of both grappling and striking experience. A better test would be to have those same wrestlers attempt to take down the pure strikers who would be learning the "anti-grappling" strategies.



If you don't have any real experience, please don't make such claims.
See above.

[Knifefighter]

I have trained brazillian jiu jitsu and I currently train in mma.
Where did you train BJJ? Who was your instructor? Where do you train MMA? Who is your coach? How long have you trained each?



Me thinks knifefighter has never been in a real (non-competition) fight in his life if he thinks otherwise. Maybe if your lucky, someday I can give you a lesson on how to fight. An arm bar can be easily prevented, one just needs to know how to defend against it.
Yeah, that could be educational. Maybe one of the things we can work on is me slapping an arm bar on you and you biting me. We can see if I let it go or if I can snap your arm a couple of times first.

[unkokusai]

No, I’m talking good wrestlers with solid takedown skills.

Well, then you are full of ****

[unkokusai]

However, that wouldn’t quite be a fair test considering I have 20+ years of both grappling and striking experience.



LOL

Yeah, that's it! :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Well, then you are full of ****
Really? Ya think?
Or maybe you are just afraid to admit that your "deadly" wrestling takedown skills really aren't so unstoppable afterall.

[franco1688]

I would trully be impressed if you could snap my arm. I trained bjj with a student of carlos gracie that is located in my area for six months but I quit when I realized that none of the students nor the teacher could beat me utilizing bjj. I train mma with steve whitehurst. We can definitley set up a "training session" in the near future if you'd like. I would just feel bad making you wonder why you've spent the last twenty years of your life studying theories.

[unkokusai]

Really? Ya think?

........................................

Yup.

[unkokusai]

I would trully be impressed if you could snap my arm. I trained bjj with a student of carlos gracie that is located in my area for six months but I quit when I realized that none of the students nor the teacher could beat me utilizing bjj. I train mma with steve whitehurst. We can definitley set up a "training session" in the near future if you'd like. I would just feel bad making you wonder why you've spent the last twenty years of your life studying theories.

................................................

Go away, troll.

[unkokusai]

Or maybe you are just afraid to admit that your "deadly" wrestling takedown skills really aren't so unstoppable afterall.

Well, I never said they were either deadly or unstoppable, but YOU are full of ****.


You and this franco troll are starting to sound an awful lot alike.

[Knifefighter]

Well, I never said they were either deadly or unstoppable, but YOU are full of ****.

LOL @ thinking that a grappler can take down a good striker without learning significant amounts of striking, but not realizing that a striker can also learn to stop the grappler's takedowns without learning significant amounts of grappling.

[unkokusai]

LOL @ thinking that a grappler can take down a good striker without learning significant amounts of striking, but not realizing that a striker can also learn to stop the grappler's takedowns without learning significant amounts of grappling.


It's a funny world you seem to live in...........:rolleyes:


A grappler who claims he will not get hit by a skilled striker because he learned 'dodging' and 'blocking' in some three-hour seminar scam (or even by 'working on' striking a few hours a week with other grapplers!) would be a fool. A grappler hoping to deal with a striker in his range would have to go ahead and learn striking. This would mean doing it the long way and the hard way; going to a boxing gym and getting serious, going to a Muay Thai place and training hard. NOT grasping at some foolish notion that he can learn half of the equation and hope to deal with someone who has learned all of it.


And the other side of this observation would be............? C'mon, you can do it! C'mon!

[BlueTravesty]

Well, I never said they were either deadly or unstoppable, but YOU are full of ****.


You and this franco troll are starting to sound an awful lot alike.

Interesting observation... but tell me, do you need special shoes to jump to conclusions like that?

[Knifefighter]

A grappler who claims he will not get hit by a skilled striker because he learned 'dodging' and 'blocking' in some three-hour seminar scam (or even by 'working on' striking a few hours a week with other grapplers!) would be a fool. A grappler hoping to deal with a striker in his range would have to go ahead and learn striking. This would mean doing it the long way and the hard way; going to a boxing gym and getting serious, going to a Muay Thai place and training hard. NOT grasping at some foolish notion that he can learn half of the equation and hope to deal with someone who has learned all of it.

Do you think a grappler can learn to take down a striker without learning much striking?

[Merryprankster]

Knifefighter,

I disagree with the term "anti-grappling," in the sense that I don't believe it actually means anything.

I do concur that you can learn to stuff takedowns and throws without learning the gamut of grappling knowledge.

[Knifefighter]

I do concur that you can learn to stuff takedowns and throws without learning the gamut of grappling knowledge.
I believe there are a variety of techniques that would accomplish this that would, indeed, be most accurately labeled "anti-grappling". These are techniques that would be recognizable to grapplers, but are somewhat different than thse traditionally taught in grappling. These techniques would also include some very specific striking techniques.

[unkokusai]

Do you think a grappler can learn to take down a striker without learning much striking?


Of course. Just as a striker can strike a grappler without learning any grappling. Obviously. The interesting part has to do with who does what first and to what effect.

[BigZib]

Grappling is a sport and nothing more. Why can't you people get it through your heads,I can't see how you guys can go round and round for days and days over whose the toughest,whose the toughest,whos the toughest. I know one thing the toughest fighters never sit and bicker over who knows how to describe theories the best. Really what i'm seeing in here is a writing contest between a bunch of wanta bees... How gay you all are and you cant even see it. Well, I see it.

[unkokusai]

Thanks for your input newbie.


STFU

[bodhitree]

wow, so friendly. We all have a different approach to martial arts. I personally consider grappling a very valuable part of my MA experience. I am training for a sanshou fight in october (Tony Yang's tournament) and I am still grappling, although sanshou does not contain grappling. Why you may ask? Grappling allows you to try to controll, balance, position, posture, leverage, and use skills against a live opponent. In my opinion these are skills which can transfer to all areas of combat.

[unkokusai]

although sanshou does not contain grappling.

No? I think you mean to say it doesn't contain groundfighting.

[bodhitree]

Okay, I stand corrected.

[franco1688]

It seems like big zip and I are on the same page.

[mattb]

It seems like big zip and I are on the same page.You wouldn't happen to know each other or even be the same person would you? ;)

[franco1688]

No.

I also wanted to say that I am in no way a troll. I'm an experienced martial artist and I was a bouncer (and head of security,eventually) at a night club for eight years (currently I'm a night club manager). I didn't join this thread to talk s**t. I'm in to reality based training that provides real results when fighting in real fights. I'm not a "forms collector," nor am I a martial arts theroist. Right now I have some time on my hands (my club is closed for repairs) and I just wanted to chat with other martial artisits who share the same interests. Since I've been on this thread it seems as though I've been running into the same sort of stuff that has always drove me nuts in the martial arts community, politics. Anyone who's been involved in martial arts and/or competing knows exactly what I'm talking about (who's styles the best, what style is the best, who knows more techniques, who's the toughest). Talk, talk, talk, that's all it is. If one spends so much time thinking about martial arts and talking about martial arts how could you possibly have enough time to train and test your skills. I don't have a problem with people who train as a hobby or train merely because they enjoy the beauty of martial arts as an art, whatever inspires one to train, at least your training.I think that's great. If you are training to fight and consider yourself a fighter then you should be prepared to fight. I'm not here to talk smack, I'm just here to read other peoples input and provide my input. I can't speak on behalf of others but, me personally, I train to fight. I'm a realist, I know that I can be beat, but what really matters is that I'm willing to put myself and my skills on the line. I will provide any information that anyone wants if they wish to get together and move around. If one gets the best of me that's o.k. because I learned from it and obviously I can learn a few things from you. But either way, I can promise one thing, it won't be easy and you will remember moving around with me.

-"Hit fast, hit hard, hit often."- Richard Pitts

-"How do you beat a man who trains hard everyday? He puts himself through more pain and punishment than any man could and he loves to get hit...... "
- Richard Pitts

-It's not the man who talks the most s**t that you have to worry about, that's all he does is talk. It's the quiet guy sitting in the back of the room that you have to worry about." - my father

[BigZib]

Word!!!!!!!

[BigZib]

Bigzib And Franco Are Not The Same User

[Merryprankster]

I think what you'll find franco, is that mostly what's going on in this thread is that people are really arguing about what the definition of grappling is.

That may seem esoteric, but I don't think it is. If people don't agree on definitions, they aren't going to agree on much else.

By way of example, the root of the Israel-Palestine conflict is actually about differing definitions of what it means to purchase land, dating back to the 19th century, via the Ottoman Empire.

So definitions IMO can be quite important, since words mean things.

As far as talking and training - there are plenty of people out there that do both. I'll concur that most of the people who are serious about their training don't TALK **** and train.

As for me, I would tend to disagree that grappling is a sport and nothing more. Being dropped on your head on concrete hardly constitutes "sport," and I think we can all agree is quite real world, as might be getting blindside tackled in a club. It's a question of training outside the sportive rules and rule sets we tend to use. IE, the question "would you get points for that?" becomes immaterial.

You even (often) see it in MMA ring fights. Karo Parysian (sp) is a tremendous judoka, but his throws againt Diego Sanchez in his last fight didn't leave him in good position - he was throwing as if he were at a Judo tournament, where the object is merely to lay the opponent down across his shoulder blades, regardless of where YOU finish up.

Similarly, flopping to your butt, al a the infamous BJJer with no takedown skills, is a rather dangerous street tactic in MOST situations.

[franco1688]

I totally agree that jiu jitsu does have it's place in certain situations on the street. Having trained in jiu jitsu (and chin na), I found myself using various techniques successfully as a bouncer. I just get so tired of hearing about bjj this and bjj that. I can't argue with the fact that slamming an opponent on to concrete is going to cause some serious damage, but I will say that going to the ground is a bad idea on the street. Sure it can happen and it does pay off knowing how to handle yourself on the ground, but in most situations you don't want to spend time working a submission (or a break) because there is a good possibility you'll get attacked by your opponent's buddy.

-Life is a mad dance, cursed by horrifying moments of sanity. -Edgar Allen Poe

[franco1688]

Merryprankster, this is kind of off the subject, but I read your profile and you stated that you are in the coast guard. I tried to enlist with my local recruiter and he said he couldn't help me because I have a tattoo that wraps around my forearm. What are your thoughts on this? Couldn't I get a waiver?

[franco1688]

In all honesty, I really don't care if you're convinced or not. If I'm correct on my definition of a troll, it appears to me that you're the one that is a troll. I've read some of your other posts and it seems like all you do is talk s**t. Apparently you're nothing more than a computer warrior. I get so tired of dealing with turds, it's unbelivable.

[Knifefighter]

Apparently you're nothing more than a computer warrior.
Computer warriers think that biting will get them out of an armlock.
Those who have actually trained on the ground against knowledgeable ground fighters know that it will more than likely result in getting one's arm broken.

[sunfist]

The problem really comes from people not paying enough attention to their own styles. Like BJJ, it is in many places a sport art now, but it was originally developed for 'no rules' fighting. Same with kung fu, shaolin was a complete style, but nowadays people just focus on all the flashy parts. Theres groundfighting there if you look in the forms. People are so busy looking outward for the secret to becoming a complete fighter that they dont take the time to look inward.

[Merryprankster]

Franco,

I have no idea. I've never heard anything about that before, and I know plenty of guys with forearm tattoos.