Tension

[gabe]

How do you folks define it? How do you folks view it in terms of your tai chi? I've heard so many different definitions and usages. Some say they don't use any muscular tension at all. Some say they use it only when they need it. Some say it restricts chi. etc. etc.

[yangyang]

Here's a great article written by my teacher that addresses this question quite nicely I believe........

Part 1.

Relaxation and Tension in Tai Chi Chuan
by Vincent Chu

There are many people today who practice tai chi chuan. There are,
however, very few people capable of applying tai chi chuan for self-
defense. Actually, many of those who practice tai chi chuan do so
solely as a health-maintenance exercise; very few practice it as a
martial art. The fact is it is easier to practice tai chi chuan as a
health-maintenance exercise than as a martial art. To practice it as a
martial art, one must have a correct understanding of what tai chi
chuan is. “Understanding” refers to comprehending the concepts and
principles involved in tai chi chuan practices. It is not solely the
understanding and remembering of individual physical
movements. “Comprehending” refers to utilizing the concepts and
principles in practice, not simply in theory. This is not sufficient to
tai chi chuan or any physical activity. Therefore, learning from a
knowledgeable instructor, one with a correct understanding of the
concepts and principles, is the vital key to one's success. Otherwise,
the study of tai chi chuan as a martial art is but a waste of time,
energy, and money.

“Tension” is a taboo word for many tai chi chuan practitioners, due to
its association with stiffness when the body is in motion—and motion is
the soul of martial arts. Therefore, people often use alternative
words like “square and round,” “expansion and contraction,” “expansive
and compact” to describe the various conditions of tension and
relaxation in tai chi chuan solo-form practice. Starting with the
first lessons, some teachers tell their students to point their elbows
downward and drop their shoulders, emphasizing repeatedly that all
movements should be done in a relaxed and slow manner, without any
tension. A closer examination, however, of yin/yang theory, which has
greatly influenced tai chi chuan practices, reveals that yin without
yang or yang without yin cannot survive. The best situation is when
yin and yang mutually interact with one another at all times.
Therefore, the emphasis solely on relaxation and softness in tai chi
chuan without any tension, is insufficient and misleading. Why do some
instructors do that? After all, the great master of tai chi chuan,
Yang Cheng Fu, said in his book and in his teaching that one should
first try for an expansive posture and later seek a compact posture.
When one practices with an expansive posture, the body is relaxed and
it is easy for the chi to circulate. When one practices with a compact
posture, one is alert and ready to strike.

What is relaxation and what is tension? They are present in all
physical activity as well as in tai chi chuan. If one understands
their role in tai chi chuan and properly manages them, all tai chi
chuan activity will be performed in an excellent manner. When one is
relaxing, the muscles are in a state of extension, which is good for
chi circulation make it easy for the body to be in motion. When one
has tension, the muscles are in state of contraction, which is not good
for chi circulation and can make it more difficult for the body to be
in motion, depending on the condition of the tension. Another reason
for the practitioner to be relaxed during tai chi chuan practice is to
have the muscle groups work better together to produce integrated
power. In general, when the body is relaxed, the weight sink downward;
the upper body becomes lighter than the lower body; and the whole body
becomes better coordinated and balanced. When there is tension, the
muscles are in a state of excitation; it is difficult for downward
sinking to occur or for better coordination and balance. People have
often said that the essence of martial arts lies in the motion of movement;
postures are but the shell. When the body is relaxed, the body is able to move.

Relaxation and tension support each other. This situation is
equivalent to that of a coin having two sides. For greater relaxation,
one needs more tension, and for greater tension, one needs more
relaxation. We can say that relaxation serves to open the meridians for
greater chi circulation, and tension closes them or squeezes them to
deliver power. In order for the body’s organs to function better
physiologically, chi circulation must first function better in carrying
nutrients throughout the body. What is the proper definition of
relaxation? In 1992 one of my tai chi chuan teachers, Ip Tai Tak, who
was a disciple of Yeung Sau Chung, the oldest son of Yang Cheng Fu,
told me that yoga practitioners have a good physical understanding
concerning relaxation. Yoga practitioners, he said, understand that
relaxation involves re-applying tension to other parts of the body.
After tension is re-applied, the body becomes properly aligned: there
will be tension where it supposed to be and relaxation where it is
supposed to be. To a martial-arts practitioner, however, this is not
sufficient. In addition to re-applying tension to different parts of
the body, one should also have enough power to support the body's
structure as well as to tap into, easily, additional power if needed.
Otherwise, how can one survive the physical pounding involved in
martial-arts?

In general, I think one’s understanding of the definition of relaxation
in tai chi chuan practices will change progressively according to one's
practical experience. At the beginning, one defines it in terms of
one's lack of bodily coordination. The more the practitioner is not
able to apply power, the more stiff the body will become. One will
come to understand relaxation as the ability to perform any physical
activity with ease. The second definition is based on the activity of
easily and slowly stretching the arms and legs and having all the
joints loosely connected together. One at this point understands
relaxation as an absence of power. The third definition is connected
to nimbleness and flexibility. One understands relaxation as
softness. The more relaxed the body, the greater the circulation of
chi, and the faster the hands and body are able to move. The body's
weight will sink downward; there will be better balance and
coordination. This situation results from the improvement and
enhancement of the ligaments, muscles, and bones. When one makes a
small rotation of the waist, it will produce a lot of power in the
hands, from either a centrifugal or centripetal force. The strike will
be truly powerful. Thus one can see that in order to have more power in
the hands and feet, the proper thing for a practitioner to do is not
perform more exercises for the hands and feet, but rather exercise the
whole body in order to strengthen it and to increase blood and chi
circulation; one should also loosen the waist. Today, when people talk
about his or her bodily skill, they are referring to the skill
resulting from changes within the body—which happen because of changed
additional chi inside the body. Unfortunately, there are many people
who highly train the four limbs for localized power and forgot the most
important part: the waist, which produces integrated power.

[yangyang]

Part II.


In any martial-arts strikes, technique, power, and speed are very
important elements. Without speed, one will be easily defeated by the
opponent. Without power, even profound techniques are useless.
Without technique, one does not know what to do with power. All
Chinese martial-art systems involve students in power training as their
core training, and tai chi chuan is no exception to this rule. It
involves students in the solo-drill exercise of the tai chi chuan form
to familiarize them with tai chi chaun’s profound techniques and
power. It is through this solo-drill training that the student comes
to understand each movement’s applications and variations as well as
power delivery (fa jing). We all know that good fa jing technique
involves extreme quickness and tightening all the body's muscles to
squeeze the power outward. Immediately before the muscles are tightly
contracted, the body is fully alert and energized, due to chi
circulation. This state of alertness and being energized is another
characteristic of relaxation in the martial-arts. To have greater chi
circulation, one has to have relaxation. To have fa jing, one has to
have tension.

From the last paragraph, one can infer that tension is the key for
having fa jing. Two steps are involved. When the body is relaxed, it
is better for power reaching the four limbs. When the power reaches
the four limbs, it is the end of relaxation's function. We often hear
people criticize tension for causing muscle stiffness and for stiffness
inhibiting mobility. What is tension and what is stiffness? When the
body's muscles are contracted for a long period, this is called
stiffness; this is not a good condition. When the body's muscles are
contracted for only for a moment, this is called tightening; this is
good tension. One can see that it is not that all tension is bad and
one should always avoid it. In order to produce integrated power
correctly, the whole body must get involved, not only the four limbs
but all the muscles and joints as well. This condition of tightening
is called open inside and closed outside. This is equivalent to
someone squeezing a tube of toothpaste. In order to increase the
pressure inside and have the chi circulates quickly, one has to
contract tightly all the muscles. What is the relationship between chi
and power (jing)? We often read and hear that where the intent (i) is,
the chi is. Where the chi is, the power is. It is also said that chi
is associated with movement, and power is associated with delivery.
Therefore, tension in martial arts has three characteristics. It is
spiritually explosive; it causes the chi to flow rapidly; and,
externally, it can contract very tightly.

In May 2005, I was invited by the Xian Yongning Tai Chi Chuan
Association to attend its 20th anniversary and the 2005 Wah Ah Cup Yang
Style Tai Chi Chuan Invitational Tournament and The Renowned Yang Style
Tai Chi Chuan Masters Conference in Xian, China. It was founded by
Grandmaster Zhou Bing (1906-1999).

Zhou was the elder brother of the wife of Fu Zhong Wen. I participated
in some sessions of the Renowned Masters' Conference and heard many tai
chi chuan masters from China speak, but what interested me the most was
when I heard the speech of a 81-year-old practitioner, Professor Fang
Ning. Professor Fang was a student of Cui Yi Shi, who was a senior
student of Yang Cheng Fu in Beijing. Professor Fang talked about what
he considers tai chi chuan skill as a martial art. He said that a tai
chi chuan practitioner without fa jing skill has not entered the door
of tai chi chuan training. He continued to say that if one can execute
only hui jing (yielding), it is not enough. He further said that
throughout history, all famous tai chi chuan practitioners possessed
the skills of both hui jing and fa jing. When one has fa jing skill,
one has the skill of understanding jing. It is a standardized tai chi
chuan martial-arts skill as mentioned in the “Tai Chi Chuan Classics.”

In order to increase the intensity of fa jing in a martial-arts strike,
one has to have more tension. This is equivalent, in making dynamite,
to creating more powerful dynamite by rolling it tighter. Relaxation
is one of the techniques used for attaining tension. Therefore, in
order to produce more power, one has to practice regularly and rehearse
the mechanism of contracting the body's muscles very tightly and then
becoming very relaxed, in order to achieve better coordination, to
improve the quality of muscles and the central nervous system, and to
do less harm to the body. How to get these muscles to work together?
The best method is for body to begin with slow and relaxed movements.

After one understands the role of relaxation and tension in tai chi
chuan, one's tai chi chuan training must be composed of these two
aspects in order to be considered complete. To practice the relaxation
aspect of tai chi chuan, one should begin to exercise the waist, the
command center of all physical activity. The “Tai Chi Chuan Classics”
indirectly points out its significence by saying to suspend the head
from above and sink the chi down to the dantien. To suspend the head
from above means to supply the energy to lift the head upward. It is
not a physical action but an application of intent. All the body parts
are properly aligned in a natural way. In order to execute correctly
the principle of suspending the head from above, I often tell my
students to have their eyes looking straight forward. When one has
this eyes-looking-forward posture, the upper body will be properly
aligned. The throat is hidden; the chest is in a natural posture; the
back is properly set; the buttocks are tucked under; the chi sinks down
to the dantien; the feet are rooted; and the kneecaps are aligned with
the big toes. Now, as one can see, when the body assumes this posture,
it is relaxed and comfortable. In this case, relaxation is the final
product of hard work and practice. It is not a natural state—as many
people assume, not understanding correctly. To practice the tension
aspect of tai chi chuan is not to ask the practitioner to perform the
solo form with stiffness but with temporary tightness: this is simply a
continuation of relaxation but with more physical involvement,
accomplished by turning and twisting the body and limbs. This practice
is also known as changing the tendons and ligaments—a necessary
training step in all Chinese martial arts.

When one is practicing tai chi chuan as a complete system, the practice
should be composed of both relaxation and tension aspects; then it is a
martial art as well as a health-maintenance exercise. However, if one
solely emphasizes the relaxation aspect of the tai chi chuan training
without any tension aspect, this kind of tai chi chuan cannot be
applied for martial-arts usage. It is but a health exercise and
Professor Fang said that it should be called tai chi calisthenics, not
tai chi chuan. An imitation cannot be compared to the real thing.
Authentic tai chi chuan practice must emphasize tension as well as
relaxation in training.

[Wong Ying Home]

Torque , Thrust and compression with springyness in tendons. It is the stored sprung energy that is probably a better description than tension, or squeezed compression is another possible use of words.

Certainly not meant to raise any objection to the authors words, who is far more qualified than I, just a different interpretation on use of words

[jack]

It's like swimming, need to use strength but not in a tension way.

[imperialtaichi]

I am totally against tension. I am also totally against yielding.

The problem is, people asscociate relaxation with yielding. But true relaxation is non-yielding.

When one relaxes "Sung" properly, the power comes out. That's when one can relax WITHOUT yielding. The more relaxed you are, the more the power comes out. This is the true Fajing, the true Yin and Yang operation. It operates according to the law that extreme yin will naturally turn into true yang; but if one tries to attain the Yang deliberately the Yang will not be pure.

If one relaxes then tenses up to fajing, one is actually decreasing the power of the fajing as the tension (and the impure yang) interferes with the true power coming out. This relax and then tense up thing is not true Yin and Yang. It shows a lack of understanding on Yin/Yang and internal dynamics.

Very hard to explain by words. But if you cross hands with someone who can do this properly you will understand.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

A common mistake is to limit the body's dynamic characteristics to muscle powered movements.. there are far better mechanisms within the body.. i have posted quite a bit about the connective tissue system and its use of "Tensegrity" relative to movement and power.. either check out those posts or google the two concepts..

The hip/Kua region is ccrucial in linking the upper and lower parts of the body, the more tension present in this region the less unified we become.. this is one of the greatest hurdles to overcome, and one of the crucial keys to realizing the depth of Taiji.. unification of the upper and lower body is achieved by relaxing the Kua and permiting the smooth flow of energy through it..

The ancients lacked the science we have today, they used cryptic and secretive descriptions to explain what they discovered through trial and error.. and, it seems they figured out how to activate the connective tissue system (CTS), and build on the principle of tensegrity.. to the degree our muscles are conflicting with each other to produce contrived "power", they dampen the vibrational tensegrity that activates the connective tissue system.. when relaxed but substantial, the muscles add supporting substance to the natural power of the CTS..

But, do the research.. the reward is a link to the legends of Taiji..

Be well...

[gabe]

YY,
Thanks for taking the time to post that article, it was quite informative.

It seems that there are contrasting views. Mind if I try to sum them up?

The article states that tension is necessary, and underlies power.

Imperial and many many others state that tension holds back true power and advocates complete relaxation.

Then there is the discussion of how twists create tension or stored energy that is issued upon release.

And finally, the use of the waist to create torque, that seems to me to be describing a whipping type power.

Have I missed something? These are all different views. I think we can all agree that sustained tension reduces mobility and sensitivity. Those that advocate tension argue that it is momentary tension on the point of impact, and the tension is not to be misplaced in areas such as the waist which needs to be relaxed to create torque.
So those that are against tension, can you describe how you hit? Is there no tension on the point of impact? Is it akin to whipping? The target must feel an impact, how is that accomplished without a resistant force?

Oh, and Taichibob, are you distinguishing between tension created by muscle and tension created by tendons? Is this tensigrity akin to the coiled spring ideas? Is there no tension in your concept?

[yangyang]

You're welcome gabe.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Gabe: LOL, of course there is tension, no tension and we fall down.. it is the efficient management of it that is the issue..

Aside from that, i am referring to another system unique to, but integrated with the neuro-muscular system.. the Connective Tissue System (CTS) and its use of the principle of Tensegrity.. the best results when googled come from the phrase, "connective tissue tensegrity".. the tensegrity of an activated connective tissue system is identical to the concept of "Peng".. but, it's so much more.. rather than repeat myself from previous posts, google the phrase or look up my previous (recent) posts.. The CTS has properties that can explain much of the legends of Taiji, and.. "Tensegrity" was developed by Buckminster Fuller, resulting in the Geodesic Dome principle.. CTS communicates throughout every cell and organ in the body at about 20 times the speed of the nervous system.. it does this through vibrational frequencies, hence.. the more muscular tension the more dampened effect on the CTS vibrations of communication..

It is like how a tent constructed with flexible poles distributes pressure throughout the structure yet maintains its structural integrity... but, so much more..

Be well...

[gabe]

TCB,
I'll look into your concepts.

Maybe I can focus this question about tension a bit more. How does it relate to actual hitting? Not at all? How is the "impact" created without tension?

g

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Tensegrity expressed through the Connective Tissue System (CTS), is incredibly powerful, IF you can balance the appropriate muscular support.. In a previous example, i used the analogy of knocking over a glass or a vase, etc.. sometimes, we instantly, without conscious thought, move at blinding speed, incredible accuracy, and intercept the potential mistake before it manifests.. or, we recognize the problem the mind looks for potential solutions and we either freeze or blunder.. in the first possibility, the blinding speed and accuracy is a result of our "natural" abilities expressed through the CTS.. in the second, the brain/mind starts sending panic signals through the neuro-muscular system which fires-up in a chaos of responses that are 20 times slower than the CTS..

The power comes from the unified body connection, in typical punching we have orchestrated a set of muscle memory skills.. where we expect groupings of muscles to respond in conflicting contractions to express a power developed through contrived postures intended to maximize muscular strength.. but, the same tension and contraction constricts and pressures the CTS, like putting a pillow on guitar strings.. it inhibits the CTS from doing its job effectively.. Muscles contract and relax, the CTS contracts, expands and relaxes.. The muscles are dependent on interconnected systems to work in a very coordinated manner to produce a result.. the CTS IS a single system that exists at every level of the body from cells to organs to muscles and bones, it acts as a single unified unit (if we let it).. The CTS is our very natural way to do things, like reaching for a glass in the cupboard.. we don't take special postures, or scream, or duplicate parts of a form.. we just do it.. like driving.. Our bodies already know the most efficient and powerful way to do things.. our training should help us apply this inherent "knowing" to our chosen Art, not change it.. WCC Chen says that a punch is most powerful when we "Give" it to someone, like offering them coffee or tea.. (he offered me "tea" and nearly broke my shoulder)..

The power is expressed through the entire body such that it feels like you have fallen and the planet just hit you, rather than you hitting the planet..

The muscles add support to the Tensegrity of the CTS, it's a fine balance.. but, when you find the balance the movement is effortless and the result is remarkable.. yes, there is tension, but.. it is minimal.. it is maximum power with minimum effort..

Be well..

[Ronin22]

TCB
Cool post. I know you mentioned the CTS responds around 20 times faster than the NMS have you come across anything in your research that says this response time in CTS can be improved? The tai chi legends must have improved it to get the results they have written about in times past.

[Scott R. Brown]

The word “Tensegrity” is the combination of the terms “tension” and “integrity” which indicates a balanced state (“integrity” under “tension”) and is commonly described as the balance between the two complimentary (as defined by Fuller) forces of Push and Pull. This definition is merely a modern complication of a very simple and ancient concept known as Yin-Yang!

Fuller and Snelson did not invent, discover or devise any new concept or principle here. They merely over complicated and restated in new terms well known “ancient” principles.

Fuller asserts that integrity (a balanced condition) results from the cooperation between the complimentary forces of “Push” and “Pull”! Big deal!! Any student of Tao knows that!!!

Yin and Yang, Push and Pull are not just complimentary principles or forces, they are ALSO opposites. They are complimentary when they are utilized to create an harmonious condition, a “state of integrity”, or what we used to call a “BALANCED” state/condition.

This balanced state is dependent upon OPPOSITE forces of EQUAL intensity to negate any one force’s dominance. If one force is out of proportion to the other we lose integrity; we lose balance!

Balance/integrity occurs as a consequence of the rhythmic oscillation between two complimentary, yet opposing, forces. I have described this in the past through the examples of standing on one foot and riding a bicycle. With either one balance is maintained by a subtle movement from side to side. Balance is not a still point of non-movement, but a balanced alternation (oscillation) between two opposing forces. The COMPLIMENTARY forces are balanced because they are “EQUALLY” OPPOSING! They ARE opposing. If they weren’t opposing there would be NO balance! These forces are only complimentary when they are in balance. When one force holds dominance within any specific condition there is NO complimentary (balanced) condition taking place! As I have stated on previous threads, without a periodic imbalance, change (growth) would not and could not occur!

The principle of tensegrity is clearly demonstrated in the figure of Yin-Yang by the indication of a rhythmic cycling of the principles where each in turn finds itself in an alternating condition of dominance and submissiveness. If the forces of Yin and Yang did not alternate in a rhythmic and balanced process, balance would not be possible.

Life is a flowing, dynamic process of these alternating principles. One may call it tensegrity if they choose and pretend that Fuller and Snelson identified some surprisingly new principle, but they did not!

The reason I mention this is because it seems to me that simple principles discussed in a complex manner does not assist one in obtaining a clear understanding of the principles. Simple is simple for a reason. Once again, as I have mentioned on a previous thread, calling a “Library” a “Learning Resource Center”, does not change the fact it is still a library! Why change the terminology? What is the purpose when “Library” is just as functional and everyone already knows the term and its meaning? There is no reason to complicate the basic principles illustrated by Yin-Yang on a discussion of Tai Chi by introducing terms that are unfamiliar and un-necessary.

On the question of tension:

Tension is a condition of mind that is expressed in and by the body. When we have learned to release the tension in our mind our body will respond accordingly. Tai Chi may be a useful expedient to aid one in learning to release their physical tension, however the area of activity is the mind. The body cannot relax if the mind is tense.

Movement, whether self defense oriented, walking, running, or reaching for a cup is a learned process. The more one internalizes a specific movement the more relaxed they become when performing that movement. Over time the body will learn to respond naturally without any wasted effort/tension. Time and practice are the keys.

When we were children we learned to walk and to feed ourselves. These activities took effort and concentration to learn, and a lot of spilling food and falling down. Effort and concentration occur as a consequence of “trying” to learn a new skill. With much practice we no longer “try”; we perform actions spontaneously. This spontaneous action is unsurprising to us when we are putting a spoon or fork in our mouths and yet never hit our teeth or spear our tongues, but we think it is something mysterious when we observe a master perform a more complicated appearing action with ease. The process of performing the two actions, feeding and Tai Chi application with spontaneous ease occurs through the same means, time and practice. There is nothing mysterious about it!

When performing an action in a masterful way the tension used by the muscular system is just enough to get the action done, no more and no less. This balance between tension and relaxation may be indicated, pointed too, by an instructor, but it must be felt internally by the student for themselves. This will only occur with, YOU GUESSED IT, time and practice!

[gabe]

I am totally against tension. I am also totally against yielding.

The problem is, people asscociate relaxation with yielding. But true relaxation is non-yielding.

When one relaxes "Sung" properly, the power comes out. That's when one can relax WITHOUT yielding. The more relaxed you are, the more the power comes out. This is the true Fajing, the true Yin and Yang operation. It operates according to the law that extreme yin will naturally turn into true yang; but if one tries to attain the Yang deliberately the Yang will not be pure.

If one relaxes then tenses up to fajing, one is actually decreasing the power of the fajing as the tension (and the impure yang) interferes with the true power coming out. This relax and then tense up thing is not true Yin and Yang. It shows a lack of understanding on Yin/Yang and internal dynamics.

Very hard to explain by words. But if you cross hands with someone who can do this properly you will understand.

Cheers,
John


How do the many responses reconsile with this above?

Balance to me implies full relaxation and full tension at the appropriate times- push and pull when needed. How is that not true yin and yang? And the article mentions that tension is necessary for fajing and true power while not negating the importance of relaxation.

I don't know, is this a question of semantics? Tension does not equate to me as sustained tightness. Nor does it relate only to muscular tightness. And it certainly doesn't imply using just one body part, like the bicep, to throw a punch.

Again, let me further ask, what is going on at the moment of impact? (Yes, I understand the full relaxation necessary prior to impact, along with the proper whole body mechanics)

Thanks for the responses so far.
g

[gabe]

The word “Tensegrity” is the combination of the terms “tension” and “integrity” which indicates a balanced state (“integrity” under “tension”) and is commonly described as the balance between the two complimentary (as defined by Fuller) forces of Push and Pull. This definition is merely a modern complication of a very simple and ancient concept known as Yin-Yang!

Fuller and Snelson did not invent, discover or devise any new concept or principle here. They merely over complicated and restated in new terms well known “ancient” principles.

Fuller asserts that integrity (a balanced condition) results from the cooperation between the complimentary forces of “Push” and “Pull”! Big deal!! Any student of Tao knows that!!!

Yin and Yang, Push and Pull are not just complimentary principles or forces, they are ALSO opposites. They are complimentary when they are utilized to create an harmonious condition, a “state of integrity”, or what we used to call a “BALANCED” state/condition.

This balanced state is dependent upon OPPOSITE forces of EQUAL intensity to negate any one force’s dominance. If one force is out of proportion to the other we lose integrity; we lose balance!

Balance/integrity occurs as a consequence of the rhythmic oscillation between two complimentary, yet opposing, forces. I have described this in the past through the examples of standing on one foot and riding a bicycle. With either one balance is maintained by a subtle movement from side to side. Balance is not a still point of non-movement, but a balanced alternation (oscillation) between two opposing forces. The COMPLIMENTARY forces are balanced because they are “EQUALLY” OPPOSING! They ARE opposing. If they weren’t opposing there would be NO balance! These forces are only complimentary when they are in balance. When one force holds dominance within any specific condition there is NO complimentary (balanced) condition taking place! As I have stated on previous threads, without a periodic imbalance, change (growth) would not and could not occur!

The principle of tensegrity is clearly demonstrated in the figure of Yin-Yang by the indication of a rhythmic cycling of the principles where each in turn finds itself in an alternating condition of dominance and submissiveness. If the forces of Yin and Yang did not alternate in a rhythmic and balanced process, balance would not be possible.

Life is a flowing, dynamic process of these alternating principles. One may call it tensegrity if they choose and pretend that Fuller and Snelson identified some surprisingly new principle, but they did not!

The reason I mention this is because it seems to me that simple principles discussed in a complex manner does not assist one in obtaining a clear understanding of the principles. Simple is simple for a reason. Once again, as I have mentioned on a previous thread, calling a “Library” a “Learning Resource Center”, does not change the fact it is still a library! Why change the terminology? What is the purpose when “Library” is just as functional and everyone already knows the term and its meaning? There is no reason to complicate the basic principles illustrated by Yin-Yang on a discussion of Tai Chi by introducing terms that are unfamiliar and un-necessary.

On the question of tension:

Tension is a condition of mind that is expressed in and by the body. When we have learned to release the tension in our mind our body will respond accordingly. Tai Chi may be a useful expedient to aid one in learning to release their physical tension, however the area of activity is the mind. The body cannot relax if the mind is tense.

Movement, whether self defense oriented, walking, running, or reaching for a cup is a learned process. The more one internalizes a specific movement the more relaxed they become when performing that movement. Over time the body will learn to respond naturally without any wasted effort/tension. Time and practice are the keys.

When we were children we learned to walk and to feed ourselves. These activities took effort and concentration to learn, and a lot of spilling food and falling down. Effort and concentration occur as a consequence of “trying” to learn a new skill. With much practice we no longer “try”; we perform actions spontaneously. This spontaneous action is unsurprising to us when we are putting a spoon or fork in our mouths and yet never hit our teeth or spear our tongues, but we think it is something mysterious when we observe a master perform a more complicated appearing action with ease. The process of performing the two actions, feeding and Tai Chi application with spontaneous ease occurs through the same means, time and practice. There is nothing mysterious about it!

When performing an action in a masterful way the tension used by the muscular system is just enough to get the action done, no more and no less. This balance between tension and relaxation may be indicated, pointed too, by an instructor, but it must be felt internally by the student for themselves. This will only occur with, YOU GUESSED IT, time and practice!

Nice. Simply put.

[yangyang]

Scott Brown, I concur whole heartily. Excellent post! :)

[Ronin22]

cjurakpt
Thanks for the post it was a good read



To me these two statements say it all:





Yin and Yang, Push and Pull are not just complimentary principles or forces, they are ALSO opposites. They are complimentary when they are utilized to create an harmonious condition, a “state of integrity”, or what we used to call a “BALANCED” state/condition.

This balanced state is dependent upon OPPOSITE forces of EQUAL intensity to negate any one force’s dominance. If one force is out of proportion to the other we lose integrity; we lose balance!

!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott: LOL.. It seems even your explanation of “simplicity” gets a little complex.. Certainly, I agree that “Tensegrity” is similar to Yin/Yang principles.. but, that is not the intended reference.. We are exploring the principle of Tensegrity as applied to the Connective Tissue System (CTS).. where there are more issues than the “simplicity” of Yin/Yang.. although, most principles are reducible to Yin/Yang, occasionally the reduction loses the intended communication.. Your references are suited to the interplay of the neuro-muscular system, but lacks appropriate application in the CTS environment’s more interactive involvement in motion, support, and further links to vibrational inter-connectivity..

Fuller and Snelson did not invent or discover the principles of Tensegrity, they simply congealed the concepts into an Architectural icon, the Geodesic Dome.. Now, surely, you can find fault and reference with the minutia of “who, what, where, when, and how".. but, as you point out, the intended reference is to relate to principles of Taiji.. not as an exercise in precision semantics.. While your admonishment to practice” is valid, I think we are trying illustrate that there are options not widely used that could enhance that practice.. why, insist on holding to a fixed description? The more perspectives we can examine, the more likely we are to improve our own.

Now, regarding the “library” analogy.. it may be that our culture has grown tired of the reference to libraries, the youth may see it as only a place for finding reading material.. and, as you say, change is born of conflict.. so, conflicting the label of “library” with “learning resource center” may change the perspective toward a more favorable outlook of “libraries”…

Tensegrity, as a principle, incorporates more than just Yin/Yang.. it explains the dynamics of pressure when applied to the system.. while the simple push-pull principle is integral to Tensegrity, the more dynamic explanations and analogies inherent to the Tensegrity of the CTS is a set of concepts not often practiced or even understood.. The CTS as an integrated system including muscular support (which fills-in behind the more rapid CTS) is much more closely analogous to the legends of Taiji than the neuro-muscular system alone.. it is an oversimplification to suggest that the legendary prowess of Taiji is the result of acquired skills related solely to the neuro-muscular system.. there are many practitioners with many years of faithful practice that miss the mark miserably.. there is something else at play, a mystery that is just becoming apparent to the dedicated seeker.. The mystery is no secret, it’s the “forest we can’t see for the trees” or the "ghost in the machine".. and, it is through the generosity of present day Masters, students of anatomy and physiology, and physicists that we are able to see the mechanics of what was thought to be the great mystery..

Of all people, Scott, i was sure you would do the research on this issue.. i think, if you do you will find that the promise of Taiji is much more of a reality than can be attained through the usual processes.. our horizons can be greatly expanded with so minimal an effort as to be shocked when we realize it.. Personally, my Taiji has so greatly improved, and the proof of it in the exchange of energies is so undeniable as to render me certain beyond any reasonable doubt of the validity of this experience.. I am not here to convert anyone to my perspectives, only to share, with delighted exhuberance, these amazing observations.. and, as always, i invite your insightful commentary.. however much i favor my perspectives, i am also open to better or more insightful evidence..

Be well..

[yangyang]

Hi Bob,

Do you have a link for CTS that you speak of?? I would like to read more about it, so I can have a more informed opinion. I did a search but all I come up with is Carpal Tunnel System. Thanks.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi yangyang: these are a few links that do a pretty good job, but Rick Barrett's book "Through The Western Gate" is a well done reference as it relates to Taiji..


http://www.i-sis.org.uk/lcm.php

[http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...12/ai_n9153887

http://www.uvm.edu/~annb/faculty/PDFs/C747.pdf

http://www.sportsmedicinenaturally.com/

http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/m...cb6dcb58d6f671

http://www.backfixbodywork.com/Athle...ement_Pt_2.htm

http://www.healing101.org/somaticrecall1.html

http://www.idealspine.com/pages/AJCC...y%207%2001.pdf

I hope this helps.. Be well..

PS: oops.. these are aged, it seems.. the first link has much good info.. or, just google "Connective Tissue Tensegrity" for your own search...

[yangyang]

thank you sir, i will read up on it.

[yangyang]

Looks like an interesting read. I just bought the book.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob,

If you read my post carefully you will notice that it is not as complex as it might first appear. I merely stated simple principles repeatedly in differing ways to provide various examples of the same concept. This is done frequently by me in my posts as you may have noted. The reason I do this is for a few reasons. One, repetition helps when attempting to retain information, or in my case when communicating information. Another reason is that not everyone thinks in the same manner. Some people are more literal and require a reasoned explanation while others do better with a metaphor whereby they may visualize the principle being discussed through the illustration of a story. Others must DO to understand, this I cannot help with much via the internet other than suggesting actions.

By stating the same principle a number of different ways it is more likely to be communicated effectively to a wider audience. When restating the same principle a number of ways it can appear to be complicated, but a closer examination will reveal it is merely the same principle repeated differently.

Some information “appears” complicated when a reader does not have the proper foundation of knowledge to understand what is being discussed. How can one understand multiplication and division when they do not have a complete grasp of addition and subtraction? Addition and subtraction is the basis of multiplication and division. One must develop a rudimentary knowledge base to understand “seemingly” more complex principles. Once the basics are grasped comprehensively the “seemingly” complex principles are found to be simple after all.

Some concepts are seemingly complex because the reader has no foundation for the information being presented. That is my argument pertaining to Tensegrity primarily and CTS secondarily. These are new terms that communicate information that is not new, but the new terms DO complicate these principles by making it appear like the information is new and revolutionary. What I am saying is, “state these principles using the terms people understand instead of using unfamiliar terms to describe known principles”.

I return to my Library/Learning Resource Center reference. It is not necessary to use new terms for well known and understood principles. This only confuses the issue being discussed because others are not familiar with the new terms. At some point the renaming of well known principles becomes pretentious. I am NOT stating I believe your use of these terms is pretension on your part! I understand this topic is fascinating to you and providing you with new insights. The concepts may have provided you with newer insights, but they are not new concepts. They are just new to you! They are merely known principles redefined and packaged anew, that is all! Truth is truth; facts are facts no matter how they are packaged, so why not use terminology that is common to all. The principles of Tensegrity are as simple as I have previously posted and are nothing more than the principles of Yin-Yang dressed in new clothes.

I would contend that while the connection between CTS and Tensegrity are an interesting study they are none-the-less immaterial to the successful application of Tai Chi or other physical movements. It is still only a modernized and more complicated way of explaining known principles.

I do not need to know how my eye functions in order to see. Why complicate the act of seeing with unnecessary information while in the process of seeing. Understanding how the eye sees does not assist me in seeing any better! Practicing seeing does! What is of primary importance is whether I can see clearly or not, in Tai Chi practice, whether a particular exercise WORKS, not how or it why works. How and why is the prevue of medicine and is important when treating injuries or illness. It is the practice of Tai Chi principles that will activate whatever it is that creates the results we experience. If it is the CTS that produces the results that is fine, and as I stated an interesting study, but it is not necessary to the practice of Tai Chi or any other activity to understand the CTS process of information and energy transmission. What is important is DOING it! It is advantageous to avoid getting so caught up in the minutia that we forget it is results that matter. My proof of this is, if knowledge of tensegrity and CTS were necessary then the Tai Chi Masters of old would not have achieved the levels of performance they did without this NEW and PRECIOUS knowledge, which is neither new nor precious. My point here is that they DID understand the overall principles, just not the details of how it works in a technical sense and it is this overall understanding and the knowledge of how to develop it that is what is important here.

I am not trying to be insulting or devalue anyone’s preference to study anything they believe will improve their understanding and performance. Hey! If it works, it works! I am merely stating that high levels of performance are a result of practice which provides practical information and feedback. Knowledge and understanding of Tensegrity as it is associated with the CTS is interesting, but unnecessary. A race car driver does not NEED to understand how his car’s engine, wheels and other mechanical systems function, he only need understand the abilities and limits of the his car and how to work within those limits. Experience and insight gained through practice is what is important, not knowledge of minutia.

Tensegrity as it applies to the CTS are subject to the principles of Yin-Yang. If one seeks to understand and apply these principles in every area of their life then results will occur of themselves, naturally and have nothing to do with an understanding of Tensegrity and CTS! It is that simple!

There is a point where the search for wider perspectives becomes distracting and counter productive to actual improvement. I understand for you this has not been the case with this information, but I reassert it is not new information, it is just new for you and presented to you in a manner that resonated with you.

To me it is the difference between knowing how or why something occurs and actually being able to do it! True knowledge and understanding is not found in the measuring of experience, as you are well aware, but in the actual living of the experience. It is like reading about meditation as opposed to practicing meditation. One can gain useful information from reading, but the information is useless if one does not actually meditate. It is the information gained from the actual experience that is of true value.

The information you have gained from your reading appears to have either confirmed for you information you already intuited or experienced or pointed your awareness towards an area of study you had not previously considered. This explains your enthusiasm for sharing your new personal discoveries and I would not seek to diminish the value of your new experiences. As always I merely seek to broaden the perspective by offering an opposing or contrasting view of the same information.

Please consider what you may have surmised or intuited about me from our many past conversations: if your position on this topic of discussion was the one I am presently espousing, I would most likely present a contrasting view to that perspective as well. This is not merely a means to exercise an argumentative nature, it is to provide a conflicting view. For out of conflict comes growth!!;)

As always, a pleasure contrasting principles with you my friend!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Always on your toes!! and, of course, i appreciate the feedback..

Now, a different analogy.. the old farmer is tooling along in his wooden cart, with its wooden axle, and its wooden wheels.. along comes this guy in a cart with nice rubber tires, looking to help the farmer out.. but, try as he may to help, the farmer assures him that he is quite comfortable with his wooden wheels.. now, if that's not enough, the wooden wheels are actually made from a rubber tree.. (see the connection).. the principle is there in the wooden wheel, but familiarity and the comfort zone deny the farmer the benefit of enhanced performance.. even with the principles already inherent to his own wheel..

I would contend that while the connection between CTS and Tensegrity are an interesting study they are none-the-less immaterial to the successful application of Tai Chi or other physical movements. It is still only a modernized and more complicated way of explaining known principles. And, i contend to the contrary.. or, better yet, i contend that the "known principles" are so poorly explained and so distant from western thought processes that they are virtually nonexistent in Taiji circles.. as an observer, i see little, if any, evidence of understanding at this level.. and, that is not a casual remark, it is as a judge in many tournaments.. it is clear to me after presenting this concept and very tangible examples to quite a few students and teachers, the "known principles" are not so well known..

What we are dealing with is a system (The CTS) that has just recently (last 30 or so years) been studied in depth by Biophysicists, and many other healthcare and research professionals.. the contribution of this system to our health and, specifically, to our Taiji, is profound, even at its infancy as a fully understood aspect of the physical existence.. There are very simple and effective techniques that teach us to activate the CTS and establish "energetic coherence" throughout the body (and beyond).. Energetic coherence and the techniques used to maximize its effects are not intuitive from Taiji practice alone.. while they can surely be felt by chance through disciplined training.. it more about cultivating a direct relationship between the Yin/Yang as presented in the classics, and, the CTS as recently understood.. in time, the CTS will be common knowledge, and its techniques will be mainstream healthcare and mainstream Taiji.. only because it is so simple and so remarkable.. originally, the airplane was rejected as having no military value.. hmmmm....

The old farmer will get where he is going.. he may change wheels several times, but he is comfortable with that, he carries several spares (baggage with weight) and feels a certain accomplishment in the resourcefulness and perseverence he needs to make the journey.. but, the guy with the rubber tires is capitalizing from his utilization of old principles in new ways..

So, in a final analogy...:

A race car driver does not NEED to understand how his car’s engine, wheels and other mechanical systems function, he only need understand the abilities and limits of the his car and how to work within those limits. Experience and insight gained through practice is what is important, not knowledge of minutia.Or, as he races against his peers he notices that a driver with the same car and similar skills is winning consistently and by a wide margin.. that driver was privy to information of a little switch under the dash that activated the turbocharger.. now, having no NEED to know of the cars intracacies, the slower driver is faced with a dilemma.. keep losing, or learn...

We have a turbocharger, the rest is, of course, up to the individual...

Be well...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob & cjurakpt,

cjurakpt:

LOL! Yes! It would be wise to not attempt to arbitrate between Bob and me. Just sit back and watch the interplay or participate in the manner you have chosen. Your comments are insightful and beneficial to the discussion!

I noted you used the word “contradictory” in your comments when referring to the interplay between Bob and me, whereas in my post to Bob I referred to our perspectives as “contrasting”. They are as complimentary as they are contrasting, but they are not really, in fact, contradictory perspectives. As expressed in your example of the Ch’an master, they are merely two different ways of looking at the same phenomenon. We each approach the subject according to our unique purpose. We each begin with a sort of basic viewpoint which colors our interpretation of information and phenomena. By considering each others comments over time we will not only expand our own perspectives, but we may discern the underlying purpose or basic proposition of the other.

Bob and I approach identical principles and activities from similar yet different perspectives. I hope Bob will correct me if I am wrong here:

I perceive one of Bob’s interests as investigating the claimed feats of ancient Tai Chi practitioners and attempting to test and validate them. He seems interested in understanding how the feats were accomplished from a non-mysterious viewpoint. There are reasonable explanations for these feats and to discover the means by which they were accomplished and to be able to pass on the information effectively would benefit the overall Tai Chi community and improve Tai Chi’s standing in the martial arts community overall. One of the reasons he seems to have this interest is because of this love of Tai Chi and the ridicule it has received from some martial artists over the years as an inconsequential and ineffective self-defense form. So it appears to me two of his motivations are the improvement of his Tai Chi through a thorough investigation of the principles and applications of Tai Chi from a modern scientific perspective and the improvement of Tai Chi’s public image from a merely New Age exercise to a fully respected self-defense form.

These comments should not be considered in an absolute sense. I perceive Bob’s overall perspective as being an Holistic approach and not limited to this present description, but for the purposes of this thread let us accept them as a basic premise until Bob elucidates, corrects or refines this description.

While I appreciate and respect these qualities of Bob, to me they are inconsequential. This is in no way to be construed as implying they should be inconsequential to Bob or anyone one else. I emphasize they are inconsequential to ME! I don’t care what others think of Tai Chi. I am not concerned about its reputation. While I am interested in the reported fantastic skills of the masters I am not overly concerned with understanding them. I prefer to focus on the application of the principles of Tao through its various manifestations, one of which is Tai Chi. I hope to explain my reasoning for this view below.

One of my interests is to investigate and understand how the principles of Tao infuse and are manifested in all things, but in this discussion in particular, the learning and practice of Tai Chi. To me, identifying and understanding foundational principles are of primary importance in ALL things. Foundational principles are the source of all things that manifest from them. They are merely a reflection of Tao and are its manifestation. If we investigate and understand the foundational principles of Tai Chi or any other activity we will easily comprehend all that manifests from those principles. If we become overly occupied with the manifestations (the details) we will hamper our understanding of the underlying source from which all power and understanding truly springs.

We may compare this view to a tree. The root is the underlying principles of Tai Chi; the leaves are its manifestations, the forms and their application. Keep in mind that the underlying source/principle of all world system manifestations/phenomena no matter what they are is Tao! All things are merely manifestations of Tao! We may focus on the leaves or focus on the root. To pay attention to the leaves is important, but if we wish to understand the deeper meaning/power/manifestations of the tree (life, Tai Chi, etc.) we must understand the root. The leaves are multitudinous and to attempt to understand them all would be a Herculean and futile task. To completely understand one or two leaves may be possible, but it provides only a cursory understanding of the peripheral aspects of the root, it is nothing more than focusing on transient detail.

To understand the root is to understand all the leaves that spring from that root. When we have a comprehensive understanding of the principles of Tao and are able to apply them effectively we acquire, as a naturally occurring consequence, an inherent understanding of all things from a holistic perspective.

The pursuit of Tai Chi is a comprehensive study and application of the principles of Tao through actions that are both an exercise and a form of self-defense. However, to master Tai Chi one need not master its external manifestations, its forms, but must master the principles that are the root of its study, that is the principles of Tao! When one masters the root, the principles of Tao, their body will spontaneously perform accordingly. This is why, to me, the study of CTS is fascinating, but unnecessary. It reflects a focus on the manifestations, the details, and not a focus on the root, the source.

You see, a Master follows no fixed form. He has transcended form because he is able to apply the principles of Tao effectively in his daily life. While "form" is the tool used to accomplish this transcendence, attachment to form binds us to the manifestation which is merely an illusion created by the mind. Transcendence of form occurs as a consequence of the unobstructed functioning of the mind, NOT through the practice of form. This does not mean the practice of form is useless; it is the manner in which we learn and apply the principles of Tao. Forms are the leaves, the finger that points us to the source. If we become preoccupied with the details of the leaves there is a tendency to get lost in greater and greater detail. This leads away from a comprehensive understanding of the source. We must remember that the underlying purpose of the leaves is to guides us to the source. It is the source that matters most. Even if our wish is to comprehensively know the leaves as well we must understand that the best way to accomplish this task is to understand the ultimate source, which is Tao! To know the root is to know each one of the leaves, but to know a few leaves is not necessarily to know the root. To comprehensively know the leaves of interest to us we MUST know the root. This is why it is said, “To master oneself is to master all things!”

From experience, through numerous lively interactions I know Bob realizes all of this. However, not everyone that reads his posts will understand. Therefore, I post contrasting principles and ideas in an effort to widen the perspective for the benefit of keeping the ultimate goal in perspective. At least it is MY ultimate goal, LOL and I think it is the underlying if not recognized goal of many others.

But I could be wrong!;)

[Scott R. Brown]

P. S. Hi TaiChiBob,

I don’t have time to respond to your latest post in a comprehensive manner right now. My previous post here was meant to try to address my overall intent rather than address your post point by point. It is not my intention to ignore or devalue your response, I only have limited time in which to post as I am sure is the case with many of us here. Your points are well made! Please do not confuse my statement of “not necessary to know” with “not beneficial to know”! Information may be “beneficial” without being “necessary”!

[imperialtaichi]

Balance to me implies full relaxation and full tension at the appropriate times- push and pull when needed. How is that not true yin and yang?...



Hello Gabe,

The thing is, Tai Chi must not be interpreted in terms of Shaolin type of dynamics. Surely, all those proper body alignments and so on are important in the beginning, but ultimately Tai Chi operates with a different set of rules, and cannot be adequately analysed with Shaolin type of mind set.

In terms of the Yin and Yang, it is all done with Yi Qi, and NOT the function of relaxed and tensed muscles. That's why the old masters always say "Pan Quen Chuen Shi Yi" which means the whole form is done with Yi. If you read up on the Tai Chi Classics (esp. Wang Zhong Yue, Wu and Li) and apply their methods in terms of Yi Qi instead of bodily methods, you will see the classics in a whole new light.

Of course, as Scott pointed out, without muscular tension we will fall down like a sack of potatoes. And when someone's attacking us, it is so hard not to turn to muscular effort. But everytime we activate muscular effort, we are restricting the amount of power coming through. In terms of Qi, we would be restricting Qi flow; in terms of TCBob's CT theory (which I like very much) muscular tension will interfere with the natural power coming from the CT system; and in terms of bow and arrow (TC Classic "Fa Jing yu Fang Jian") it is like you are trying to fire and arrow and trying to push/throw the arrow at the same time. Just let the bowstring do the work! don't interfere with it.

Of course, to be able to fully utilize Yi Qi, one must fully understand and be able to master their operations. Shen Yi Qi operates according to very specific rules. Especially if one wants to activate the "True Yang (Zhen Yang)" which comes from extreme Yin. Have faith in your Yi Qi. Let go. Explore. The power that you will develop from letting go of wanting to use the muscles is tremendousely rewarding.

Cheers,
John

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: As always, we exchange insights with gusto and respect.. but, always with the best interest of Taiji in mind.. i do not contend with your perception of my motivation, nor do i limit that motivation to your perception ;) ..

In the "tree" analogy, it is interesting how there seems to be a divided perception, separating roots, leaves and such.. i see it as a complete system, each perceived part interdependent, a symbiotic whole.. My good friend and fellow Taiji player remarked how during his military service he was responsible for ordinance.. he said, understanding the principles of explosives is one thing, but.. you better understand the mechanics of using them, if you hope for longevity..

I suppose some level of clarity is useful, here.. as i'm sure Scott is aware, i advocate a full and complete experience of the principles.. it is empty to pursue Taiji without the primary experience of how Yin/Yang interplay.. they are not separate concepts, no more than breathing is either inhaling or exhaling.. it is both, in cycles and degrees..

I do see Taiji holistically, and the Tao as well.. i see no difference. Tao is not the roots, it is not the leaves.. it is what allows roots to be roots and leaves to be leaves.. and it is what creates the perception that they are different and yet the same.. there is no difference between the principle and its manifestation as nuance.. by way of analogy: Tao would be the sunlight, present in the result of roots, trunks, branches, leaves and TREE..... in my experience, i cannot separate the result from its motivation.. i can only regard the process as worthy of my full attention.. that process, of which even my consideration is included, is the a unified expression of BEING.. and we express being by DOING.. so, when i DO the work of exploring fundamental principles, and.. when i DO the work of exploring nuance and mechanics.. i am expressing Tao as BEING...

The CTS is no less fundamental than Yin/Yang.. which is no less fundamental than cooking.. it is only by separating and assigning priorities that we degrade the subtle beauty of this experience.. Now, this sounds well and good, but.. it isn't.. It is an over-simplification of the process of realization..

To understand the root is to understand all the leaves that spring from that root. When we have a comprehensive understanding of the principles of Tao and are able to apply them effectively we acquire, as a naturally occurring consequence, an inherent understanding of all things from a holistic perspective. I do not understand the Tao.. but i deeply respect its processes.. i can experience its wisdom through every aspect of this physical existence (and beyond).. Tao's principles are known only by application in the nuanced art of living, not as a sterile pursuit of principles as means to an end.. Certainly, focus on basic concepts support broader applications, but.. they will not manifest until we apply.. The CTS is just another adventure into the principles.. like cooking, fishing, and washing the car.. or, even the world of combat arts..

The pursuit of Tai Chi is a comprehensive study and application of the principles of Tao through actions that are both an exercise and a form of self-defense. However, to master Tai Chi one need not master its external manifestations, its forms, but must master the principles that are the root of its study, that is the principles of Tao! When one masters the root, the principles of Tao, their body will spontaneously perform accordingly. This is why, to me, the study of CTS is fascinating, but unnecessary. It reflects a focus on the manifestations, the details, and not a focus on the root, the source. And, i may master the physics and chemistry of understanding water's many miracles.. yet, i still drown if i don't study the nuance and minutia of swimming.. The principles of Yin/Yang and Tao will not "spontaneously" arise without familiarity with the environment of the experience.. i may practice my fundamentals for many years and feel the experience of Tao, Yin and Yang quite fully, but.. without experience applying it in the world of full-contact Martial Arts, it would be unadvisable to challenge a seasoned fighter.. Now, there will be those that assure me that if my understanding is complete, the result should comply with my intention.. back to the cars: i can hone my driving skills to a razor's edge, but lose to someone who knows their local roads, roads i have never seen.. however nice the ideal may seem, there's work to be done...

It is advantageous to avoid getting so caught up in the minutia that we forget it is results that matter. My proof of this is, if knowledge of tensegrity and CTS were necessary then the Tai Chi Masters of old would not have achieved the levels of performance they did without this NEW and PRECIOUS knowledge, which is neither new nor precious. My point here is that they DID understand the overall principles, just not the details of how it works in a technical sense and it is this overall understanding and the knowledge of how to develop it that is what is important here. I see no difference in the "minutia" and the "result".. what i see is evidence that the ancestors had some deep insights into CTS, but no formal way of comprehending.. We are blessed to live in an age that can shed real light on this subject, how much more can we add to the art through this understanding.. that is, if improving and evolving the art is desirable by anyone's standards.. (it is by mine).. Confining the Art to the experience of the ancestors, is a slow and suffocating demise.. Breathe fresh life and broader understandings into the Arts, seek the deeper mysteries so that they too might someday become known...

Be well..

[gabe]

Imperial:
"Of course, as Scott pointed out, without muscular tension we will fall down like a sack of potatoes. And when someone's attacking us, it is so hard not to turn to muscular effort. But everytime we activate muscular effort, we are restricting the amount of power coming through. In terms of Qi, we would be restricting Qi flow; in terms of TCBob's CT theory (which I like very much) muscular tension will interfere with the natural power coming from the CT system; and in terms of bow and arrow (TC Classic "Fa Jing yu Fang Jian") it is like you are trying to fire and arrow and trying to push/throw the arrow at the same time. Just let the bowstring do the work! don't interfere with it."


Your bow and arrow analogy is beautiful. Can we discuss this further? There is tension in the bow- the degree of tension and flexibility determine how far the arrow travels. There is tension in the string- along with the bow, the two create the stored energy that power the arrow upon release. The arrow itself has tension in its shaft and hardness to its point- to allow for penetration. They don't shatter on impact. Your intent guides the arrow, but the bow, string and arrow are the tools of delivery. And this tool is a balance of tension and flexibility. And our tools are made of muscles and connective tissue. Yes, the act of drawing the arrow, mounting it and releasing it is a thing of smooth, effortless and natural beauty- but we are still talking about tension and relaxation and flexibility. And that perfect economy of motion in the master archer comes from contrived, repetitive practise, not some kind of "natural" reaction. Though we talk about being formless, or "structureless" you need perfect structure to shoot that arrow, and structure that maintains uninterrupted chi flow.

And lastly, was it Kenneth Fish or Rober Smith that talked about Shaolin masters having higher internal than most of the tai chi people he's met. Many that I've spoken to do not agree with the classifications of "internal" and external" martial art.

Very interested in the responses so far.
g

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Many that I've spoken to do not agree with the classifications of "internal" and external" martial art.I agree that many proficient "external" Martial Artists arrive at internal by virtue of realization.. they reach the limits of "external" efficiency, and begin to realize their further potential through internal principles.. as the theory of Yin/Yang suggests, when Yang reaches its maximum, it begins its journey into Yin.. similarly, as internalists approach maximum Yin, they begin to seek the Yang compliment.. The difference being the focus of training.. the optimum being a balance..

Be well...

[cjurakpt]

LOL! Yes! It would be wise to not attempt to arbitrate between Bob and me.
I just wanted to add that caveat in case anyone erroneously thought I was comparing you two to the two monks and casting myself to the Master in the story, telling you that you are both right; perish the thought! who has time for that?!? ("No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be; am an attendant lord, one that will do to swell a progress, start a scene or two...")


Just sit back and watch the interplay or participate in the manner you have chosen. Your comments are insightful and beneficial to the discussion!

at the risk of repeating our last exchange of self-deprecation, thank you...


I noted you used the word “contradictory” in your comments when referring to the interplay between Bob and me, whereas in my post to Bob I referred to our perspectives as “contrasting”.

actually, I stated that they are "not contradictory", which would certainly "not" contradict their description as contrasting - and I certainly agree with that...so c'mon Scott, what's YOUR problem? I guess pressing all those wild flowers gets you a little incoherent, hmmm? ;) ;) ;) :p :p :p :D :D :D

actually, to "defend" Bob a bit (like he needs that!), I'll give you my own reason for, at times, "preferring" the western / relatively analytical (complex) model over the eastern / relatively metaphorical (simple); if you will indulge me, for it may seem somewhat circuitous:

what I have found is that, in the health care field at least, many folks who consider themselves hollistic-type healers follow an unfortunately typical tack: first, they decry the insensitive, fragmented, ego-driven etc. failings of allopathic medicine to address the "whole person"; then, they tout their particular alternative remedy du jour as just what the public needs; then, they try to explain why what they do works in one of the following two ways: a) western pseudo-science: using an interchange of typically quantum physics, electro-magnetism, complexity theoy, whatever, they seek to "legitimize" their approach by giving it scientic validity (this is the same science that they just reviled, but never mind that); b) eastern pseudo-metaphor: they pick whatever they like from TCM, Tibetian medicine, etc. and apply it, usually in the gaps that they leave in their use of western science; what's even better, they use this as a justification why what they do can't really be studied appropriately by a double blind randomized clinical trial, essentially meaning that it canot be disproved

so, they use the best of both worlds to argue their case, and the outcome is typically a poorly blended amalgam of two systems that in and of themselves are both more then adequate of describing a variety of different phenomena, but when fragmented in this manner (so much for holism!) become essentially useless

another are where i see this is in the world internal arts /qigong / tai chi - a lot of teachers do the same flip-flopping between the two systems, using one when they can't say something in the other, using the science when they want to appear "analytical" and the metaphor when they want to appear inscrutable (very often, they do so to slip out of a corner when someone points out their incorrect assumptions about western science - they pull the whole yin/yang card, and basically trump the other person, because of that person's lack of familiarity with the eastern system); so, I decided that instead of defaulting to "eastern mode", of which I have very limited knowledge, when faced with supposedly inexplicable tai chi phenomenna, I wanted to be able to describe them in a western manner; doing so by using the conventions of tensegrity, complexity theory, CTS behavior in context of gravity / ground reaction force etc. has therefore been an area of study for me for nearly 10 years; my delight when Bob started posting about this, because he seems to be doing similar "research" in a way that no one else I've interracted with has done - so it's nice to see that approach confirmed independently by a knowledgeable / reliable source

so, I guess my point is that I am trying to combat sloppiness: it's so easy to shift from one paradigmm to the other without realizing it, based on the desire to be authoritative; another reason to use the western approach - we live in the west - many people here relate better to that sort of thinking, and actually reject any attempt to describe things in an eastern mode - to me, being able to satisfy their left brains with a detailed explanation of why what's happening is happening in their own "language" conceiveably removes an obstacle to their more fully investing themselves in the practice of tai chi / qi gong - just an attempt at using skillful means to trick someone into trying the practice (hey, don't look at me - Chogyam Trungpa very directly says that you have to fool beginners into trying meditation because if they knew what it was really like they'd never do it!)

well, I guess I failed miserably in terms of not getting in the middle of things...;)

[gabe]

Greetings..

I agree that many proficient "external" Martial Artists arrive at internal by virtue of realization.. they reach the limits of "external" efficiency, and begin to realize their further potential through internal principles.. as the theory of Yin/Yang suggests, when Yang reaches its maximum, it begins its journey into Yin.. similarly, as internalists approach maximum Yin, they begin to seek the Yang compliment.. The difference being the focus of training.. the optimum being a balance..

Be well...


Come on, TCB. More of your thoughts please.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob,

A most marvelous response! As always!


In the "tree" analogy, it is interesting how there seems to be a divided perception, separating roots, leaves and such.. i see it as a complete system, each perceived part interdependent, a symbiotic whole..

I agree with you there is no separation between root and leaf. Inherently there is nothing that is not Tao; however Tao may be perceived/experienced as a unity or as separate entities, Yin-Yang or Yin and Yang. While each separate entity inherently contains qualities of the whole (IS the whole), this is not generally perceived by the general population. In point of fact, Tao is experienced as Separate Entities by the vast majority of people NOT as a unified whole. When individuals do perceive Unity the experience is transitory and not a permanent condition, likewise those who understand inherent unity primarily experience Tao as separate entities. Those who achieve unobstructed perception as a consistent state of being perceive Tao as unity and as separate entities at the same time or alternately as they choose! (Remember my illustration of this point using the Old Woman/Young Woman optical illusion!) Because Tao is primarily experienced as separate entities we communicate its unity through the context of separate entities. In order to direct perception towards a realization that the parts ARE the whole we use metaphorical allusions that illustrate the point. We use separate entities (words) with inherent limitation to allude to the holistic condition or unity which is Tao!

Because we must use separate entities (words) to communicate Unity (Tao) there will always be flaws in the method used to indicate it. Limitation is inherent within the system of separate entities. Therefore, there will always “seem to be a divided perception, separating roots, leaves and such..” What is important is to understand the metaphor according to the context with which it was intended. If we change the context of the metaphor it does not communicate the intended principle. A metaphor is not a logical syllogism. It is not intended to arrive at a logically true conclusion. It is a general allusion to a state or condition of being that cannot be precisely indicated. It points to phenomena that must be directly apprehended in order to understand; as such a metaphor cannot be fairly parsed as we would a logical argument!

Figures of speech or metaphorical allusions are not to be taken literally; they indicate phenomenon or principles that occur within a specific context. When we change the context we change the meaning of the metaphor. Metaphors are fingers pointing to a principle, they are not THE principle. If we change the direction of the pointing finger by changing the context of the metaphor we miss that which was being pointed at and the metaphor loses its designed purpose. The metaphor of root and leaf indicates a specific way of perceiving the interconnectedness of Tao to its manifestations and the manifestations to Tao.

Since we must use separate entities to communicate Unity it is beneficial to speak to others according to a context of metaphors that are understandable according to the most common way of perceiving reality. Thus when we say the leaf leads us to the root which is the source we are alluding to the connection between the leaf and the root. The fact they are inherently One (the tree) is implied within the metaphor whether it is directly stated or not!


My good friend and fellow Taiji player remarked how during his military service he was responsible for ordinance.. he said, understanding the principles of explosives is one thing, but.. you better understand the mechanics of using them, if you hope for longevity..

i may master the physics and chemistry of understanding water's many miracles.. yet, i still drown if i don't study the nuance and minutia of swimming.. The principles of Yin/Yang and Tao will not "spontaneously" arise without familiarity with the environment of the experience.. i may practice my fundamentals for many years and feel the experience of Tao, Yin and Yang quite fully, but.. without experience applying it in the world of full-contact Martial Arts, it would be unadvisable to challenge a seasoned fighter..

This position is not supported by historically reported events experienced by Masters and traditional Taoist literary metaphor. In truth it is not necessary to even know any martial arts at all or how to swim.

The first is a true story, an example of a Master knowing NO martial arts yet overcoming numerous martial arts masters:

Shoju (1642-1721) was a Zen master, a dharma teacher to Hakuin, father of modern Rinzai Zen. Shoju was not a martial artist. He was a Zen Master; one could say he was a “Master of Himself” which is synonymous with being in tune with, or at One with Tao! He is well known for an episode called “The Thrashing of the Master Swordsmen!” On a particular occasion Shoju was invited to observe a demonstration by a group of Master Swordsmen. Following the demonstration the Swordsmen discussed with Shoju the principles of Zen. The Swordsmen doubted that it would be possible for a skilled Swordsman, without the element of surprise, to be defeated by another who relied on spirit alone. Hearing this Shoju invited the Swordsmen to attack him all at once. During the attack not one struck Shoju, while Shoju rapped each one on the head with his fan. When asked by the Swordsmen how, without any training, he could perform such a feat, Shoju replied, “If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack.”

A similar event has been reported to have occurred to Hakuin as well. I have not been able to locate in English any reference to this possible event. However, what we have here is a man, a Zen Master, one in tune with Tao, with no martial arts experience anticipating through intuitive insight impending attacks. He effectively avoided the attacks, preserved his safety and demonstrated to his faux assailants his ability to return harm for harm if it had been his intention.

My second example is 2 stories from the 19th chapter of Chuang Tzu:

”A drunken man who falls out of a cart, though he may suffer, does not die. His bones are the same as other people's; but he meets his accident in a different way. His spirit is in a condition of security. He is not conscious of riding in the cart; neither is he conscious of falling out of it. Ideas of life, death, fear, etc., cannot penetrate his breast; and so he does not suffer from contact with objective existences. And if such security is to be got from wine, how much more is it to be got from Tao. It is in Tao that the Sage seeks his refuge, and so he is free from harm.
_____

Confucius was looking at the cataract at Lüliang. It fell from a height of thirty jen, and its foam reached forty li away. No scaly, finny creature could enter therein. Yet Confucius saw an old man go in, and thinking that he was suffering from some trouble and desirous of ending his life, bade a disciple run along the side to try and save him. The old man emerged about a hundred paces off, and with flowing hair went carolling along the bank. Confucius followed him and said, 'I had thought, Sir, you were a spirit, but now I see you are a man. Kindly tell me, is there any way to deal thus with water?'

'No', replied the old man; 'I have no way. There was my original condition to begin with; then habit growing into nature; and lastly acquiescence in destiny. Plunging in with the whirl, I come out with the swirl. I accommodate myself to the water, not the water to me. And so I am able to deal with it after this fashion.'

These three examples illustrate the basis of my assertion that understanding and accommodating ourselves to Tao, the foundational principle of all creation, provides a quality of experience and preservation of life, beyond what may be provided by the practice of forms!

That is enough for my friend I must be off to bed now! As always I am learning and growing through our interaction!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

cjurakpt: Humble thanks for your support <bows>.. but, we are all "absolutely correct" :D

I do favor linking science with the perceived mysticism of the east.. i have always considered the "middle way" favorable.. As Scott appropriately asserts, a deep understanding of the Yin/Yang process is essential.. but, it is not so difficult as to be a hindrance to moving into experiencing it in the generallities of "Living".. and, one of those "generallities" is exploring the application of the various tools available to the Taiji seeker, i.e.: CTS..

I am respectful of your years of study in the relationships of the CTS to Taiji, and would be honored to meet you and your teacher if the opportunity presents itself.. equally, i would also be honored to meet Scott, he is respectful, knowledgable, and given to good-spirited dialogue.. it is through such dialogue that we either cultivate a deeper sense of our own beliefs, or.. are rewarded with a more desirable perspective.. either way, it's a win/win.. the loss comes when we reject better researched data in favor of prejudiced preferences, or.. when we assume we "know" the right answer and fail to adequately consider alternative perspectives..

I do not assume i am "right", in fact.. i generally put my opinions out for commentary, to see if they stand up to scrutiny.. i would rather adjust flawed perceptions than cling to ego needs for acceptedness.. The more we put this concept out there, the more people will consider it.. the more it is considered the more feedback we can expect, and.. hopefully, we can further refine its worthiness.. Much of the research on CTS is health oriented, some of it is specifically tailored to sports enhancement, and precious little is directly linked to Taiji.. it is my hope to inspire others.. (actually, i'm lazy.. i'm hoping others will do the work and share it :D )..

Once you learn to activate the system (and it's ridiculously easy) it's almost a no-brainer to equate the sensation to the most valid feeling of "Peng" you have ever experienced.. trusting the CTS to work under bizarre circumstances (testing its limits), we stand with our feet together, activate the system, and.. stand in amazement as people apply tremendous pressure pushing our center to no avail, and with little to no active resistance.. the "Tensegrity" absorbs the energy and distributes it throughout the whole system, ultimately driving it into the ground and further stabilizing the apparent weak stance.. such a unique feeling..

Thanks, and.. Be well...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi cjurakpt,

Thank you for another meaningful post. I agree with most of it. I do have some comments. I dont have time to write them now however. As I just mentioned I am off to bed. If Bob does not preoccupy me too much I will try to respond later or tomorrow.

I guess I misunderstood you concerning the contradictory comment!:eek:

I don't get the joke about pressing wild flowers!:confused: If it is an allusion to New Age thinking that is NOT pertinent to me! I agree with your perspective concerning the embarassing amalgam of eastern thinking and western thinking amongst some who dabble, but have no real understanding. I also agree with attempting to take eastern thought and principles and communicating it according to a western mindset. There are some inherent limitations however so we cannot completely discard some eastern methodologies. I will try to comment more on this later.

I have little in common with the New Age thinking. My study is 30+ years of Ch'an and Tao with no interactions with New Age thinkers.

Thank you for your comments!:)

[cjurakpt]

Thank you for another meaningful post. I agree with most of it. I do have some comments. I dont have time to write them now however. As I just mentioned I am off to bed. If Bob does not preoccupy me too much I will try to respond later or tomorrow.

I anticipate your response with bated breath...


I guess I misunderstood you concerning the contradictory comment!:eek:

no muss, no fuss - just wanted to make it clear that we are all on the same page


I don't get the joke about pressing wild flowers!:confused:

It's your by-line bro: sing the whole Lumberjack song and you'll get to it by the middle of verse 2...right after the "skipping and jumping"


If it is an allusion to New Age thinking that is NOT pertinent to me! I have little in common with the New Age thinking. My study is 30+ years of Ch'an and Tao with no interactions with New Age thinkers.

good God, no! it is with full certainty that in no way shape or form do I equate you AT ALL with New Age claptrap :eek: - in fact, both you and Bob strike me as being varient (deviant? :p ) manifestations of an ideal that I strive for in myself - we could maybe call it mythological realism...

Ch'an is the way to go - my limited study first began with two years of biweekly lectures / meditations given by my teacher, with dinner (read: Ch'an style group interview) out afterwards with a few of us who helped him set-up/clean-up (the "dharma crew") to "get rid" of whatever voluntary donations were made by attendees...good times...


I agree with your perspective concerning the embarassing amalgam of eastern thinking and western thinking amongst some who dabble, but have no real understanding. I also agree with attempting to take eastern thought and principles and communicating it according to a western mindset. There are some inherent limitations however so we cannot completely discard some eastern methodologies. I will try to comment more on this later.

again, looking forward to it - in regards to the limitations, I don't necesarilly disagree that there are - so then, in what way does one responsibly cross-over from one system to another, whilst maintaining the integrity of both? that, to me, is an interesting question...


Thank you for your comments!:)

likewise

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Taiji Bob and crew,

Great information ive been sitting here reading the whole thread, now i have a question about CTS if you can bounce people when playing puhs hands using the CTS can you push a car in the same way? I know there is different weights and energy but is it possible to push a car without the muscle as in the way you push using CTS?

Regards
Garry

[fiercest tiger]

Hi Dr John,

Not all shaolin kung fu is external, didnt Taiji come from shaolin at one stage and was called Pao Chuan?

Actually, how much of Taiji has still shaolin rootss in the movements?


Garry

[cjurakpt]

cjurakpt: Humble thanks for your support <bows>.. but, we are all "absolutely correct" :D

indeed! and likewise re: the kneeling and scraping


I do favor linking science with the perceived mysticism of the east.. i have always considered the "middle way" favorable.. As Scott appropriately asserts, a deep understanding of the Yin/Yang process is essential.. but, it is not so difficult as to be a hindrance to moving into experiencing it in the generallities of "Living".. and, one of those "generallities" is exploring the application of the various tools available to the Taiji seeker, i.e.: CTS..

agreed


I am respectful of your years of study in the relationships of the CTS to Taiji, and would be honored to meet you and your teacher if the opportunity presents itself.. equally, i would also be honored to meet Scott, he is respectful, knowledgable, and given to good-spirited dialogue.. it is through such dialogue that we either cultivate a deeper sense of our own beliefs, or.. are rewarded with a more desirable perspective.. either way, it's a win/win.. the loss comes when we reject better researched data in favor of prejudiced preferences, or.. when we assume we "know" the right answer and fail to adequately consider alternative perspectives..

it is always a pleasure to read both of your posts, and to be able to discuss the concepts without having to self-censure - either to dumb-it down or to qualify my own experiences; it's nice to be able to communicate with like-minded peers; certainly, your experience in many areas is much moreso than mine, and I greatly appreciate the willingness of you and Scott to share your "hard won" experiences so openly; it would be great to perhaps meet up some day and have a "conversation" (if you know what I mean, you ol' tai chi dog, you :D ) about out theories etc.; as to the nature of the dialogue, it is indeed refreshing to have so productive an exchange on an on-going basis - at least on this part of the forum there are no daily transcontinental challenges/retractions going on (have you been over to the general forum lately? it's a real scene over there!)


I do not assume i am "right", in fact.. i generally put my opinions out for commentary, to see if they stand up to scrutiny.. i would rather adjust flawed perceptions than cling to ego needs for acceptedness.. The more we put this concept out there, the more people will consider it.. the more it is considered the more feedback we can expect, and.. hopefully, we can further refine its worthiness..

hear hear


Much of the research on CTS is health oriented, some of it is specifically tailored to sports enhancement, and precious little is directly linked to Taiji.. it is my hope to inspire others.. (actually, i'm lazy.. i'm hoping others will do the work and share it :D )..

well, one of my long-term projects is to more formally describe the nature of CTS in relation to Tai Ji practice - the vehicle I will use is probably going to be the 10 principles of our style, and explore them interms of how they are essentially a formula for CTS activation in concert with appropriate NMS useage; I would be very happy to collaorate in whatever capacity is possible; on the flip side, my wife has done an entire doctoral level thesis for her French psteopathic degree on the nature of the CTS in regards to complexity theory / osteopathy - much of it is certainly applicable to our discussion; at some point when her life is less hectic, we wanted to go take a long look at it, update it and see where we go with it (I would happily provide you a copy, but it's living somewhere on a disc; and it's mostly in French...)


Once you learn to activate the system (and it's ridiculously easy) it's almost a no-brainer to equate the sensation to the most valid feeling of "Peng" you have ever experienced.. trusting the CTS to work under bizarre circumstances (testing its limits), we stand with our feet together, activate the system, and.. stand in amazement as people apply tremendous pressure pushing our center to no avail, and with little to no active resistance.. the "Tensegrity" absorbs the energy and distributes it throughout the whole system, ultimately driving it into the ground and further stabilizing the apparent weak stance.. such a unique feeling..

yeah, when you hit it, you're like, "how did I miss this all these years?"; it's like a multi dimensional expansiveness that just goes on and on: sort of a field effect; as for the force feeding the stance - yes, it seems about right, though I haven't tried it quite like that - I'll have to give it a go; for me, the ability to be responsive doing push-hands has been exponential - I no longer worry about whether I am doing the right thing - and I am able to adjust for "mistakes" a lot more readily


Thanks, and.. Be well...

ditto

[cjurakpt]

Hi Taiji Bob and crew,

Great information ive been sitting here reading the whole thread, now i have a question about CTS if you can bounce people when playing puhs hands using the CTS can you push a car in the same way? I know there is different weights and energy but is it possible to push a car without the muscle as in the way you push using CTS?

Regards
Garry

my teacher's teacher used to say something to the effect that it's no biggie to throw someone across the room in push hands, but can you do it to a sack of rice?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Nether a car or sack of rice has a mind, or sprit, they can not be pushed or bounced in the same way as what is being posted here.

[fiercest tiger]

Thats what im saying if i have no core and dont give any structure can they still up root?

[imperialtaichi]

Hello Gabe and Garry,

Shaolin has a lot of internal power as well. But the internal method being used is different from Tai Chi.

The biggest difference is this (over generalizing of course):
Shaolin tends to be "Yi Shen Chui Jing" which means lining up the body to express the internal power. Tai Chi tends to be "Yi Jing Chui Shen" which means the body is moved by internal power. I'm not saying which is more powerful, just different.

In terms of the bows and arrows, the Shaolin way would be exactly how Gabe had very nicely described, utilising bones, tendons etc. But in Tai Chi, if you understand the Yin/Yang principles, the bow would be the Yang component of the Yi Qi, the string would be Yin component of the Yi Qi, and the "Yin Zhong Yin" or "True Yang (Zhen Yang)" would be the arrow.

The problem of utilizing the internal power correctly is that, one should express it either the Shaolin way OR the Tai Chi way, but not both simutaneousely. The Shaolin way is easier to practice, easier to understand, easier to apply. The Tai Chi way is harder to practice/understand/apply, but crispier and less dependent on the physical body which is more suitable for someone like me who is smaller built and has more previous injuries.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Thats what im saying if i have no core and dont give any structure can they still up root?



Can still be done, but it is a lot harder to throw someone cleany if we cannot control their core and structure. That's why we utilize "Ting Wen Na Fang" listen, ask, lock, release.

Cheers,
John

[fiercest tiger]

Hi John

The biggest difference is this (over generalizing of course):
Shaolin tends to be "Yi Shen Chui Jing" which means lining up the body to express the internal power. Tai Chi tends to be "Yi Jing Chui Shen" which means the body is moved by internal power. I'm not saying which is more powerful, just different.

So Taiji dont align the body and have structure? The Internal shaolin i do is as soft and slow like Taiji, it uses Luk Hup 6 harmonies, yin yang theory but looks different but similar. Ill show it to you when we meet up!

Thanks for the reply makes sense.....as it does use the ailignment of stance and body, yi chi, together.

Garry

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi cjurakpt,

LOL!! That was a good joke about the “pressing wild flower”! I completely missed it! Duh!! LOL!!

Concerning the dichotomy of the western / relatively analytical (complex) model over the eastern / relatively metaphorical (simple):

In European/Western cultures we grow up learning the analytical system. This system is inherently linear. We live amongst it all of our lives and it colors how we perceive the world system. This method of the categorization of phenomena seeks to basically divide, measure and control the world. (There are reasons for this other than the general betterment of mankind!) Western science cuts the world into pieces in an attempt to see how the pieces worked together when they were part of the whole. LOL!! It sounds a bit strange then to kill something, that is change its inherent qualities, by cutting it into pieces in order to understand how it functioned before it was in pieces!! This form of scientific study has resulted in many benefits, but along with the benefits has come some detrimental consequences. All benefits are attended by costs; it is the Yin and Yang of life.

Quality may be measured in many ways. While the western scientific method has provided the qualities of longer, healthier and a generally more comfortable life for a greater number of people, it has also reduced the value of many other qualities that add value to human life.

I was just talking to my sons yesterday about the quality of the experience of watching an illusionist perform his act. I explained to them that one of the reasons illusionists don’t like to give away their secrets to the audience is because it robs the audience of their sense of wonder, which is the point of the illusion. Illusions create awe and wonder in the audience and this is an enjoyable experience. Once the audience understands how an illusion is performed, they often experience a disappointment in proportion to the level of wonder they possessed prior to understanding the secret. In a similar way, when science identifies the “tricks” of nature we lose qualities of life we may never get back: “wonder”, “awe”, and “reverence”!

Without these feelings life loses a level of quality. It becomes easier to kill and destroy because we no longer perceive phenomena as an interconnected whole containing the transcendent quality of reverence. We tend to perceive phenomena only as inanimate pieces to be divided, assembled, divided and reassembled like an erector set in anyway we wish. Having said this, of course awe has been used by the power elite throughout history to manipulate and control populations. Everything has a benefit/cost ratio! What we lose in one area we gain in another. This again is nothing more than the interaction of Yin and Yang

When we perceive the world as bits and pieces we lose sight of the whole. Indeed this is a major complaint of those who have pursued Holistic views in the last few decades. When we attempt to divide and measure certain qualities of experience that originated from the Asian perspective towards life we are attempting to kill the wonder and awe these experiences have instilled in us. For example, take the CTS as discussed by Bob. An attempt is made to identify the bio-mechanical process that occurs to create some of the effects demonstrated by Tai Chi Masters. The intent is to demonstrate for the approval of linear thinking minds the truth/validity of specific phenomena. The idea is to gain approval from a system of thinking that only represents one portion of human experience. Out culture tends to not accept what it cannot divide, measure and control. As a consequence if something cannot be divided, measured and controlled it is relegated to a lower position of value and respect. In order to gain a desired level of respect and value the phenomena is subjected to a rigorous methodology that reduces its value/quality in another area of human experience.

I have more to say on this subject. I have run out of time at the moment and I wanted to post this in order to give readers some thoughts to consider.

More to come.....;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Nether a car or sack of rice has a mind, or sprit, they can not be pushed or bounced in the same way as what is being posted here.With some reluctance, i tend to disagree.. i thought exactly the same for many years and am only recently of different consideration.. as i came to know more of the underlying energies, and approach the source without too much of the limiting prejudice i once embraced.. the lines between "me and them" (them being anything) blurred.. now, it seems that i find mind and spirit in everything (yes, the '60s were way too good to me, so judge carefully :D ).. we play a game with a Pilates Ball, a 48" inflated but flexible rubber ball, where we push-hands through the ball.. the lessons learned from that experience translate into moving inanimate objects in very much the same way we deal with people.. there is a base energy present in all things, and i don't know how to say this other than the way my reacher said it.. "find the 'flat spot' in anything, the neutral place, and it will respond to your intention".. work with different "objects", you will find "flat spots", it's quite unique.. even pushing a car, there will be a place where it just feels maleable, responsive.. push into it with the CTS and an intention for the car to "be somewhere else", not the "i'm" going push it" type.. but, the "we (you and the car) will go somewhere else.. Separation in the mind sets up separation and conflict in the deed.. in the "flat spot" it seems that we are able to merge with that base energy, then we are simply moving an expanded version of ourselves..

We tend to create the situation we don't want, conflict.. we often struggle with or against an opponent, when in fact, we can align the frequencies of the CTS's vibrational communication to that of the opponent's and.. they end up pushing or unbalancing themselves.. this requires listening, sticking and adhereing at advanced levels, but.. what great fun!! With continued practice and dedication (and good partners), this skill is operational in dynamic combat.. it's almost a religious experience when it works, but.. the ego is a formidable foe, it is the real opponent, it fears the liberation you will realize as you move into the depths of Taiji.. it wants you to embrace struggle and conflict, separation, that is its environment..

I hope that wasn't too "off the wall".. once experienced, it makes perfect sense..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Scott: Your previous post is absolutely spot-on!! Please don't consider my exhuberance regarding the CTS as division into devalued parts.. it is discovery into greater mysteries.. the liquid-crystal characteristics of the CTS and the unique multi-modal communication system is only the tip of an immense iceberg.. it's like my Taiji experience has been in the lobby of a grand cathedral, this recently discovered aspect of "being/doing" Taiji opened up the labyrinth of it..

I am really enjoying the experience of relating substantial and insubstantial in the context of the CTS and is many nuances.. it seems that there is an especially beneficial relationship here..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi TaiChiBob,

Thank you for your comment. I do not intend to imply that you are cutting and dividing. Of course I have no way to know whether you are or not. I must say from my experiences interacting with you I would be inclined to believe you do not do so. When I speak a caution about a topic you have introduced, that caution should be taken in general terms to a general audience and not as an assumption on my part that it is information that would specifically benefit you in particular. In fact, I have developed an interest in the topic myself simply based upon my respect for your enthusiastic opinion.

Hi cjurakpt,

Back to the topic:

First, let me be clear, I am speaking in gross generalization here. Clearly there are those in the history of Western culture that have experienced life holistically and Eastern culture has been rife with their own versions of the analytical parsing of phenomena. So please be aware I am not speaking in absolutes here. In fact we could simply break this down into two ways of interpreting phenomena and not necessarily connect these to the cultures where they appear to predominate.
______

So, linear analytical thinking places greater importance upon the measurement and control of phenomena. Once a phenomenon is measured and controlled to an appropriate level it is used for what is hoped to be an over all benefit. I call this the “Outside In” method of gaining knowledge. Eastern methodology, I refer to as, the “Inside Out” method.

Eastern methodology emphasizes direct knowledge. It is counter to the analytical method because the information gained CANNOT be communicated or acquired in a linear fashion. “Inside Out” information is felt, intuited, directly experienced, it is not intellectually apprehended first and then applied second! The Eastern method is to apply first and understand latter! It begins as a seed that is planted and cultivated by the teacher and the student. The result grows “of itself” in its own time, from the inside out. This makes the information of less value and quality to the Western methodology. Because direct knowledge is grown from the inside out, to parse it, is to kill.

What cannot be parsed cannot be communicated in a linear or analytically fashion. What cannot be parsed cannot be measured, what cannot be measured cannot be controlled, what cannot be controlled is to be feared. Western methodology seeks to control phenomena and therefore fears what it cannot control. One coping mechanisms used to deal with a fear is to devalue its importance. Hence the Western tendency to devalue and belittle what it CANNOT understand and it cannot understand what it cannot parse.

Direct knowledge must be validated independently by each individual through their own experience. Since the information gained from the Eastern method can only be verified by experience it cannot be communicated in a meaningful linear fashion. For example: a man who has been blind since birth has no knowledge of the quality of color. How can the quality of color be communicated in a meaningful way to someone who has no concept of what it means? We can try to explain it to him, but the linear description does him no good because he has no context of direct experience. Color has no meaning to a blind man. Without meaning it has no value. Just because the blind man has no experience of color and just because it cannot be measured by him does not mean color does not exist, neither does it destroy color’s inherent value and quality, but color MUST be directly experienced in order to provide quality and value to an individual.

Amongst many Eastern marital arts the traditional method of teaching has been by the “Inside Out, method. The teacher models the actions and the student copies. Insight into proper execution is partly gained through comments from the teacher, but primarily the insight comes from within the student. The modeled movement is a seed planted into the students mind; the teacher applies periodic watering and nutrients by giving measured supporting information and periodically demonstrating the correct form. The form or technique may be applied to the student in order to provide further insights. But it is through continued practice and application that the student gains insight into the proper function and execution of technique. The student figures it out for himself through constant repetition. Over time, the correct form and application GROWS out of the student “of itself”! The optimal performance of the form is realized by FEEL, not by the technical parsing of the movements! This FEEL for the form provides insight and information of a different quality than from a form learned according to a linear method. The linear method may provide technical expertise, but the spirit of the person is not infused into the form through this manner of learning. This not only reduces the form’s quality, it impedes the development of the student’s inner quality as well.


Form need not be parsed and explained in a linear fashion in order to learn it efficiently and effectively. If the linear fashion of learning were necessary then it would have been utilized, and it was, even in the east. The linear fashion allows for quicker learning of proper actions, this is beneficial when time is a factor, but there is an indefinable quality missing when the action is performed. This missing quality can be discerned by an experienced eye, but may not even be noticed by an inexperienced person. This indefinable quality is a condition of spirit that becomes manifested through the movements and attitude of the practitioner! This “Spirit”, that radiates from the practitioner, delineates a Master from a mere expert!
_____

Amongst many in the medical field and amongst many New Agers the deeper qualities of Eastern philosophical thought are just not understood. One cannot just pick up a book or attend a seminar and think they will understand the eastern method of apprehending knowledge. This is why many of these individuals appear to be quacks. Many in the western culture who seek to apply eastern methods do not understand them in depth because they bring to the subject their western linear analytical mindset. This is not entirely their fault. We are conditioned by birth according to our culture and it takes much time and effort to re-condition our method of thinking. So when westerners attempt to integrate eastern concepts into their methodologies they do not realize they only have a cursory understanding. They think that because linear analytical thinking works when acquiring and implementing western knowledge and methodologies it works the same way with eastern knowledge and methodologies. Because of this they only obtain a superficial understanding of the concepts which provides for inadequate results and many times makes them look foolish.

I hope that is enough to give something to think about and comment on! I am off to bed again!

[cjurakpt]

Scott: there is essentially nothing that I disagree with (how dull!) - and I certainly understand the necessity of painting with a borad brush in terms of the generalized context of your comments; same with Bob, and also John as well, for although on this particular thread our posts have not been directly addressed to each other, we seem to be sympatico by extension

now my friends, i want to try something different, to try to move the discussion to something somewhat new, that maybe I intuit as the subterranean spring beneath the groun dof this whole thread: since we seem to have, overall, agreed as to the fundamental nature of eastern versus western, about direct experience inside-out versus fragmented, outside-in etc.; so, my question / challenge is: what's the point of all this? of studying deeply, of experiencing fully, of analying objectively, etc. etc.? what is the point of all this studying? furthermore, and perhaps more interestingly, where do we go from here? in other words, how do we actively participate in the evolution of Taoist practice? of Ch'an? I personally refuse to believe that we have any less capacity for understanding than the old masters - my teacher trains us in the hopes that we will surpass him; so, how do we maintain a freshness in our practice? a spontaneous creativity? where is the freedom within the tension?

[cjurakpt]

With some reluctance, i tend to disagree.. i thought exactly the same for many years and am only recently of different consideration.. as i came to know more of the underlying energies, and approach the source without too much of the limiting prejudice i once embraced.. the lines between "me and them" (them being anything) blurred.. now, it seems that i find mind and spirit in everything (yes, the '60s were way too good to me, so judge carefully :D ).. we play a game with a Pilates Ball, a 48" inflated but flexible rubber ball, where we push-hands through the ball.. the lessons learned from that experience translate into moving inanimate objects in very much the same way we deal with people.. there is a base energy present in all things, and i don't know how to say this other than the way my reacher said it.. "find the 'flat spot' in anything, the neutral place, and it will respond to your intention".. work with different "objects", you will find "flat spots", it's quite unique.. even pushing a car, there will be a place where it just feels maleable, responsive.. push into it with the CTS and an intention for the car to "be somewhere else", not the "i'm" going push it" type.. but, the "we (you and the car) will go somewhere else.. Separation in the mind sets up separation and conflict in the deed.. in the "flat spot" it seems that we are able to merge with that base energy, then we are simply moving an expanded version of ourselves..

We tend to create the situation we don't want, conflict.. we often struggle with or against an opponent, when in fact, we can align the frequencies of the CTS's vibrational communication to that of the opponent's and.. they end up pushing or unbalancing themselves.. this requires listening, sticking and adhereing at advanced levels, but.. what great fun!! With continued practice and dedication (and good partners), this skill is operational in dynamic combat.. it's almost a religious experience when it works, but.. the ego is a formidable foe, it is the real opponent, it fears the liberation you will realize as you move into the depths of Taiji.. it wants you to embrace struggle and conflict, separation, that is its environment..

I hope that wasn't too "off the wall".. once experienced, it makes perfect sense..

Be well..

it's funny: I have recently proposed to my teacher renaming push-hands to balancing-hands or nurturing-hands, since, in our school, the point of this practice is not to unbalance the other person, but to actually rebalance them: in other words, we try to actively find each others' imbalances, sort of like looking in a mirror, and suport each other while giving an opportunity to correct it - this, not surprisingly, essentially eliminates the ego aspect, since when you "win" so does the other person! this correctly involves harmonizing your CTS with theirs: you can actually syncronize with it - I recall some years ago, a very nice fellow who was a well-skilled aikido practitioner briefly joined our school; not surprisingly, when doing push-hands, a lot of people were rather frustrated, since he was able to neutralize their best efforts at pushing him; so my teacher asked me to try - so we joined hands, and he dug in;now, I figured that, if I went all out, so to speak, it would turn into a very entertaining match - and either he would loose or I would, spectacularly - well, I couldn't embarass my teacher/school and "loose" to our guest, and similarly I didn't think it would be very hospitable to blow him away either (not that I was sure I could, just that I didn't think I had enough skill to take him out gracefully)! so, instead, I tried something different: I listened to him the way that I would a patient, feeling for the CTS "rhythm" - as his CTS went into exhalation phase, I followed it a little further, and as I did, "pulled" him with me - it must have been imperceptable to him, because he didn't resist, or even respond - so, when the system started to reverse itself, I went with it, and amplified it: lo and behold, off his root he went, looking very surprised; in retrospect, my lucky "discovery" was one of the first steps towards understanding how to access the CTS, although it was years before I could do so with any predictable reproducibility...BTW, this story is not an attempt at self-aggrandizement re: my phenominal push hands skill - I of course leave out the multitude of examples of me being bounced around rather unceremoniously before and since that one episode...

as to the challenge re: the bag of rice - precisely what you say - in other words, lacking a sense of self, the bag of rice remains true to its own characteristics, and therefore does not give you any extra hooks to grab onto and displace it with; the physics of it are equally unforgiving, therefore you have to really understand the bag of rice for what it is, and respond appropriately - I like Bob's notion of me/bag=same thing - it works on lots of levels - gving up your own ego, the anticipation of what you think should happen, your fear of "failure", your desire to "show off", even the notion of "push the bag" - it's like cutting up an ox (where have I heard that? whatever, can't say) - let the ego go and somehow it all falls to a heap at your feet without you even realizing it...

I like the Pilates ball idea - I'd like to try that; in regads to innanimate objects, we actually work pushing on a wall, trying to feel where it "moves"...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Chris: As to your suggestion to shift the topic, we can continue here (since there is a delightful civility and a great exchange of insights), or at your discretion, start a new thread and chance the wrath of those not familiar with this aspect of Taiji.. In any case, you ask the appropriate question.. even though i don't recognize a destination, only new points of departure.. Choose your pleasure, sir..

Be well...

[qiphlow]

hi all--
this is one hell of a topic! i have a question for imperialtaichi:
when you talk about letting go of using the muscles, do you recommend any drills or exercises i could train to practice this?
sometimes when i am pushing hands, i will play with being overly loose and floppy (a sort of "drunken" style of push hands, if you will). when playing this way, i have, at times, really thrown my partners across the room. i'm guessing that this is on the road to letting go of the need to use muscular force. any thoughts?

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I hope that wasn't too "off the wall".. once experienced, it makes perfect sense..)

For you it makes perfect sense, for me I still stand by what I said. A car, bag of rice or any other object has no mind I understand what your saying but disagree with it.

There is a story about YLC, I believe about being asked what type of people would his taiji work on. He said it will not work on men made of wood, metal or stone all others are no problem.

[cjurakpt]

Greetings..

Chris: As to your suggestion to shift the topic, we can continue here (since there is a delightful civility and a great exchange of insights), or at your discretion, start a new thread and chance the wrath of those not familiar with this aspect of Taiji.. In any case, you ask the appropriate question.. even though i don't recognize a destination, only new points of departure.. Choose your pleasure, sir..

Be well...

I'm inclined to go with the flow and stick with this thread if everyone else is amenable to it - keep it hidden from prying eyes, lest others impose, as you point out...

I also concurr re: points of departure vs. destination - of course, there is no where to go, we have all just arrived...and again...and yet again...

so, where are we AT, man? why do we stick with this? what's the next point of departure? how do we stay fresh? for my teacher, he's making movies - his next one he's calling "1,000 Breaths" - he's filming a thousand different people breathing - from in utero ultrasound of fetal breathing (my son, actually), to school kids, to "famous" tai chi guys from WTC Day in NYC this past spring, to, hopefully, Thic Nat Hahn in France later this month at a retreat he's attending; so that's his gig - so, how does one discover one's own unique path? and then what to do, what to do? how easy it is to fall into the trap of mimicry of the great masters - well, they;re dead and gone, so what good are they to us really? are we going to live off their dregs, aimlessly reciting the classics until our tongues fall out? would they really even want us to do that? I;m not trying to be disrespectful or dismissive of the achievements of those who came before us - I just don't know if they're really all that much help to me beyond a certain general level; what really counts? well, direct experience, for sure - diving down deep into the pith of it (CTS?:D ) - I start from "when I stand on my own two feet, that's what I'm doing" and go from there...phenomena/noumena - all wrapped up together...

anyway, don't take the above too seriously - just some random thoughts, all of which can certainly be discussed in light of tension...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi cjurakpt,

You have asked too many questions at once for me to be able to answer without writing a book! :eek: LOL, not that I don’t do that anyway!:o

Please pick one or two of the questions that are the most interesting to you and I will make an attempt to write a something that is not a tome!;)

[imperialtaichi]

this is one hell of a topic! i have a question for imperialtaichi:
when you talk about letting go of using the muscles, do you recommend any drills or exercises i could train to practice this?
sometimes when i am pushing hands, i will play with being overly loose and floppy (a sort of "drunken" style of push hands, if you will). when playing this way, i have, at times, really thrown my partners across the room. i'm guessing that this is on the road to letting go of the need to use muscular force. any thoughts?



Hello Qiphlow,

Good stuff. The "Drunken" push hands is always fun ;) . When the Yi Qi takes over, the body does react similar to being drunk in the sense that the body moves and sways without the physical control; except that while drunk you are not in control, but when you are moving using Yi Qi you are in perfect control.

The problem with being overly floppy is that when the contact points move, you are actually losing your lock on the opponent and not capitalising on the power he/she is giving you. When you move, the power the opponent issuing you will be broken and lost. But if you can stay overly loose WITHOUT being floppy you will feel you can manipulate the power flowing between you and the opponent very nicely.

One way of practising this is this: get the opponent to push onto you steadily and lightly first, then try to sustain his/her push without moving, without backing off or physically yielding, and check for any tension in your body and dissipitate the tension WITHOUT moving. When all done well, the opponent would feel being floated while you are just standing there as if you are not doing anything. As you get better, get the opponent to push you harder and not as steady.

It's very difficult at first, as it seems almost impossible to do this "Bu Diao Bu Ding" "No opposing, No yielding". But play with it, and experiment with it. You will find it very rewarding. Let me know how it goes!

Cheers,
John

[omarthefish]

I kind of like your exercise but considering the HIGHLY cooperative nature it seems odd to call your partner your "opponent". :)


Also, for what it's worth, that's not what "bu diu bu ding" means. "bu ding" certainly can be translated as "no opposing" but "diu" has nothing to do with yielding. "bu diu" means literally "don't lose [somthing/contact]". In context, means not to lose your connection. You have to keep sticking. You ABSOLUTELY DO yield. The phrase "bu diu du ding" is to reming you that while you MUST yield (bu ding) you ALSO must not lose connection. You have to stay right there and not "run away".

[qiphlow]

thanks to imperial and omar for the replies!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Rather than "letting go of the muscles", i think it is an understanding of the relationship of the muscles with the many processes of the body.. a deeper exploration into other, less known, processes.. as we have discussed, there are other processes that exceed purely muscular processes, yet depend on muscles for support.. the trouble begins when we rely on only a few of many systems in the body.. unification rather than isolation will maximize the experience..

Be well...

[gabe]

imperialtaichi:
"Shaolin tends to be "Yi Shen Chui Jing" which means lining up the body to express the internal power. Tai Chi tends to be "Yi Jing Chui Shen" which means the body is moved by internal power. I'm not saying which is more powerful, just different."



This is a very interesting comment. I've heard many non-tai chi people discuss the higher levels, when they practise no form, but the "chi" moves them.

Still, it raises questions. In the best tai chi I have seen in person or on video, the practitioners are all about alignment. The "push and pull" is beautifully coordinated. Perfect spinal posture, elbow positioning and weight transfer. In action, the push hands is all about leverage and alignment- and definite rooting. Chen Xiaowang expressed his power with fantastic body mechanics, I was just a few feet away watching this.
I have heard others discuss their ability to release internal power with no alignment or root (whether single or double weighted). Am I reading your posts wrong when it seems to me that you distinguish between shaolin and tai chi in this manner? However, I have not seen any tai chi, even among the greats that I have watched, not use alignment or root in power delivery or in push hands.

And if the chi truly moves you, what is the need for form? There should be no set form, just freestyle movement or meditations practice. If alignment is not necessary, I shouldn't be seeing any root or particular body postures during power delivery or in push hands.
Can you clarify?
thanks

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


And if the chi truly moves you, what is the need for form? Even-though i have the most refined fuel available, if i run it in a poorly maintained engine it is much less efficient.. utilizing Qi in well-designed forms is just high-level maintenance.. maximizing Qi's usefulness.. but, yes, Qi is available without detailed form/alignment, just less applicable.. in dynamic situations the form or alignment may not be available, we should also be able to express Qi in awkward conditions, too..

Be well...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi gabe,

Also try to keep in mind that "no form" really means "not bound by form"!! It means that you are able to stay flexible and apply technique as the situation dictates, not limiting yourself to following strict positioning, rooting and alignment.

The situation dicates your response. You don't allow your mental attachment to form to restrict your response to unproductive actions. We want to avoid artifically conforming to a set standard of technique. This attitude keeps you fluid and responsive rather than dead, as in stuck in a fixed mode, of thinking that confines you mentally and physically which reduces your effectiveness!

[gabe]

I think there may still be a disconnect here.

I understand fully the need to react in real fighting without any formal restrictions relating to forms and sequences. However, whatever response you make, requires all that alignment you spent so much time developing in forms training. TCB states:

"but, yes, Qi is available without detailed form/alignment, just less applicable.. "

while you've stated that there is no need to have "strict positioning, rooting and alignment."

Which is it? I have yet to see high level push hands where leverage, positioning, rooting and alignment were not evident. In terms of internal power and fa jing, watching Chen Xiaowang deliver his strikes up close was a fantastic demonstration of those things. William CC Chen as well, spent more than a few minutes describing his hydraulics to me. This is no different than shaolin schools of thought as John seems to assert.

Further, if "yi chi" is "consciousness" directing the "energy," how does that translate to energy directing the movement? It seems to me that the whole point of this incredibly fast and powerful cts system is meant to bypass the consciousness.

Can any of you issue internal power without rooting or alignment? Chi is always available, but what can you do with it witout alignment, etc?

[fiercest tiger]

I think you can have no form (set0 connect with the chi and move this is a higher level then doing the sets you know and is free thinking just allowing the body to move by the chi. My systems dragon body training is at the 4th stage to just let go of ego, intent, and just move accordingly letting go of tension and allowing the swaying, circles, spirials to move within.

That being said one needs to know form and intent in order to let go.

Garry

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi gabe,

You may have misunderstood my comment. Your quote was not quite accurate. Your citation was:

…there is no need to have "strict positioning, rooting and alignment."

My comment was:

… not limiting yourself to following strict positioning, rooting and alignment.

“Not limiting” is not the same thing as “there is no need to have”. The principles of “up rooting” do not require one to be in a “specifically defined posture” in order to up root. There are certain conditions that must be present however in order to up root another person. Which action one applies depends upon the circumstance. In some circumstances one may take advantage of the opponent’s imbalance and merely apply an additional push or leading action, while in another situation you may be required to lower your center beneath the opponent’s center and direct their movement from below. These are only two examples; neither of them requires strict adherence to form.

Remember that push hands is an exercise. It was designed as a tool to help the student learn and apply certain principles of Tai Chi. It is the principles that are important not the method in which they are learned. The external form is designed to teach internal (mentally perceived and physically applied) principles. When practicing push hands the goal is to use formalized body positioning to up root the opponent. When practicing push hands one would adhere as close as possible to proper alignment, rooting etc. as prescribed by the exercise. This teaches the student the “optimal” form/body positioning in order to up root. What is important is the “feeling”! One learns to spontaneously sense (feel) the opponent’s body alignment/balance, which is a “unified dynamic” between you and the opponent, and then apply the correct amount of force to the correct area in order to unbalance the opponent. You “feel” your body positioning in relationship to that of the opponent and then “feel” the optimal area to apply force. The result is an uprooting of the opponent. Successful execution occurs when you sense (feel) your opponent’s mistakes and take advantage of them which allows you to successfully up root him. You do not overpower your opponent with strength, but with applied physics.

The action of up rooting is based upon specific body alignments within the exercise, but those alignments apply to the specific positioning of the opponent within the context of the exercise. In a real world encounter the opponent is not adhering to the specific alignment or body positioning of the exercise, therefore the strict form of the exercise does not directly apply. You cannot adhere specifically to the form of push hands or any other “exercise” if you wish to up root or defeat your opponent under these circumstances. The principles of body alignment still apply but they are applied differently because of the dynamics of the situation. Therefore, what you adhere to is not the specific actions or body alignments of push hands, but the general rules of up rooting that you learned through the practice of push hands!

I will defer comment on your other questions to others for the time being!

[imperialtaichi]

...as it seems almost impossible to do this "Bu Diao Bu Ding" "No opposing, No yielding"...



My apologies, typing error.

Bu Diao Bu Ding should be No Yielding No Opposing...

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

..."bu ding" certainly can be translated as "no opposing" but "diu" has nothing to do with yielding. "bu diu" means literally "don't lose [somthing/contact]". In context, means not to lose your connection. You have to keep sticking. You ABSOLUTELY DO yield.



Hello Omar,

Yes, your translation of "bu diu" is definietly better than mine. Because I learnt the concepts in Chinese, sometimes it is hard to translate the meaning across fully. Thanks for pointing that out.

As for yielding, I DO NOT avocate yielding physically. One can let the power through, redirect it, absorb it, dissipitate it etc but as soon as you physically yield, 1. you will lose the "King (Cantonese pronounciation) Jing".
2. if your energy's flowing properly you just don't need to physically yield anyway.

Plus, if you're faced with a real fight, yielding could be dangerous.

However, Omar, although I strongly disagree with yielding, I respect that averyone's method is slightly different, and that most Tai Chi practitioners uses yielding. Reading most of you posts, they always make a lot of sense. I guess the only way to compare the different methods is when one crosses hands with another.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

In the best tai chi I have seen in person or on video, the practitioners are all about alignment... In action, the push hands is all about leverage and alignment- and definite rooting... However, I have not seen any tai chi, even among the greats that I have watched, not use alignment or root in power delivery or in push hands.

And if the chi truly moves you, what is the need for form?



Hello Gabe,

Of course, there will always be some sort of alignment, but the best practitioners' alignment are next to invisible and very hard to detect. The ones where the alignments are geometrically obvious, famous as may be, have not reach the level of truely using the internal dynamics. If you dig deeper and see more, you will find people who has such abilities. And if you've been on the receiving end of the power, you'll know what I mean.

As for needing the form: it is indeed very very difficult to let the Qi moves you in the beginning. That's why one must practice the form. You are actually practicing the Qi flow and letting the body move by it and NOT practicing to remember a set routine of physical movements. Each moves/postures has specific Qi flow pattern which moves the body a certain way. The form in some way is like an Algebra Book; thru the book you learn the principles and methods of how the mathematics works. But some people copys the form just like copying the Algebra book WITHOUT understanding and no matter how many years they practice they will never know Tai Chi nor would they be good at maths.

Cheers,
John

[omarthefish]

However, Omar, although I strongly disagree with yielding, I respect that averyone's method is slightly different, and that most Tai Chi practitioners uses yielding. Reading most of you posts, they always make a lot of sense. I guess the only way to compare the different methods is when one crosses hands with another.

I only hope that by the time that happens, my practical realization of this stuff will have caught up with my theoretical understanding as I hate to point to other people for examples. Sadly, at present, I am mostly speaking with my perception of what my teacher is doing in mind. ;)




Hello Omar,
...

As for yielding, I DO NOT avocate yielding physically. One can let the power through, redirect it, absorb it, dissipitate it etc but as soon as you physically yield, 1. you will lose the "King (Cantonese pronounciation) Jing".
2. if your energy's flowing properly you just don't need to physically yield anyway.

Cheers,
John

See this part doesn't make sense to me at all...well some of it does but not all of it. It sounds to me like in direct violation of some of the principles Taijiquan is based on. Yielding is part and parcel of certain jings. It sounds to me like you are violating one of the "3 prohibitions" of Taijiquan that were presented to me, 3 things you are forbidden to fear:

1. bitter
2. fearsome opponents
3. loss

It's number 3 that seems to ring true for what I am readin in you post here. From your handle, I'd guess that you are a Yang dude? Sound like you are really big on structure.


Plus, if you're faced with a real fight, yielding could be dangerous.


I would suggest the exact opposite. It is the reliance on some sort of internal "structure" that is dangerous. To make this point about the importance of yielding, my teacher once, in response to a question about the supposed everpresence of peng jin, pointed to the tree that we were practicing under and asked, "If this tree were to fall on you, do you think you could "peng" it out of the way? Don't be ridiculous. You can't oppose that kind of force." Although he didn't say it, I don't think it would matter if you were yielding "internally". If you didn't get the hell out of the way of the falling tree, you'd get smushed.

I think the problem you are alluding to when you say that it could be dangerous to physically yield in a fight is not really one of yielding but one of "double lightness", the mirror opposite of double weighted. Yielding without real change. Since you say you learned these ideas in Chinese, 双轻 as opposed to 双重 .

To put another spin on the idea, how can you lead into emptiness without yielding?

My teacher will give a "solid" response sometimes just for contrast, as a teaching point. He can be so solid it's like the proverbial immovable object. But he only does it to show the difference in methods. He will then ask, what if it was an iron bar being swung at you? Would you want "structure" to resist it? How about a knife?

Sorry for kind of rambling a bit.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Which is it? I have yet to see high level push hands where leverage, positioning, rooting and alignment were not evident. In terms of internal power and fa jing, watching Chen Xiaowang deliver his strikes up close was a fantastic demonstration of those things. William CC Chen as well, spent more than a few minutes describing his hydraulics to me. This is no different than shaolin schools of thought as John seems to assert. Well.. Which is it? If you get into a dynamic situation and seek to establish your concept of good structure, alignment, leverage, and rooting.. you may find you have lost in the seeking while the opponent flows continuously.. You say said elements are "evident", and, at some level i tend to agree, but few people can see the variances of these elements in a fast-paced exchange.. some of the best Taiji pushing i have seen has looked very strange compared to the forms work.. it is the nuanced elements manifested in the most awkward of situations that characterizes Taiji..

The CTS is that system which allows one to establish "Energetic Coherence" in any situation.. if you are not familiar with its appearance and structure you will likely suppose that the player utilizing it is compromised beyond recovery, yet.. the rebound seems almost uncharacteristic of current interpretations of "classic Taiji".. WCC Chen will allow me to place my forearm on his throat as he is bent backward, place my other hand on his torso, and position my lead foot in the "middle door", deep into his stance.. then, as i apply destructive pressure he activates the CTS and "springs" to life, bouncing me a fair distance away.. by all appearances he has lost all structure and is in serious danger of collapse.. by establishing "energetic coherence" in the CTS then supporting it with musculo-skeletal alignment, i end-up pushing a spring which stores and returns my energy from even compromised positions.. Josh Waitzken and Dan Caufield are adept at this game of luring people into a seeming advantage, then reversing it..

It is from the most seemingly precarious situations that you entice your opponent's over-committment.. having a working knowledge of expanded systems, CTS, you can capitalize on the situation.. but, broken structure alone will not often survive skilled attack.. do not confine your perspectives to "classic" appearances of alignment and such.. good Taiji is evident in any situation, even those appearing to contradict "standards"..

Be well..

[gabe]

Greetings..

Well.. Which is it? If you get into a dynamic situation and seek to establish your concept of good structure, alignment, leverage, and rooting.. you may find you have lost in the seeking while the opponent flows continuously.. You say said elements are "evident", and, at some level i tend to agree, but few people can see the variances of these elements in a fast-paced exchange.. some of the best Taiji pushing i have seen has looked very strange compared to the forms work.. it is the nuanced elements manifested in the most awkward of situations that characterizes Taiji..

The CTS is that system which allows one to establish "Energetic Coherence" in any situation.. if you are not familiar with its appearance and structure you will likely suppose that the player utilizing it is compromised beyond recovery, yet.. the rebound seems almost uncharacteristic of current interpretations of "classic Taiji".. WCC Chen will allow me to place my forearm on his throat as he is bent backward, place my other hand on his torso, and position my lead foot in the "middle door", deep into his stance.. then, as i apply destructive pressure he activates the CTS and "springs" to life, bouncing me a fair distance away.. by all appearances he has lost all structure and is in serious danger of collapse.. by establishing "energetic coherence" in the CTS then supporting it with musculo-skeletal alignment, i end-up pushing a spring which stores and returns my energy from even compromised positions.. Josh Waitzken and Dan Caufield are adept at this game of luring people into a seeming advantage, then reversing it..

It is from the most seemingly precarious situations that you entice your opponent's over-committment.. having a working knowledge of expanded systems, CTS, you can capitalize on the situation.. but, broken structure alone will not often survive skilled attack.. do not confine your perspectives to "classic" appearances of alignment and such.. good Taiji is evident in any situation, even those appearing to contradict "standards"..

Be well..


I do have to say that when I mention root or alignment, I am not implying standing there like a tree. I do refer to the freeflowing movement I have seen in great Tai chi, and in that movement, I see alignment.

What you describe with William CC Chen sounds very cool. Would love to experience it. But I have to ask that when he springs to life out of a precarious position, is he entering a body position that enables him to throw you? What is the movement for, is it necessary to enter that movement or alignment to release the power?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Gabe: Mr. Chen seems to simply "spring" outward in an animated "Peng", the first compromise is that my foundation is immediately disconnected, then he rolls in a deflection type of movement to his inside, establishing advantage as i am now moving away from his center.. the outward expansion is a signature of the CTS activation, like an instant "Peng".. in the foundationless state, Mr. Chen can just fling me about, or.. he can execute throws or QiNa.. i have no foundation from which to establish my own CTS/Energetic Coherence response.. Now, as i improve my understanding of these issues, i can see where skilled listening could sense his response and deflect his spring.. but, i have much work to do..:)

His power simply swells up and overwhelms my intention of pushing him, he manifests it directly without repositioning.. he sets the scenario, allowing me to find a position where i feel completely at the advantage, then says, when you are ready, finish it.. even if i try to be sneaky it backfires, he listens very well.. but, i see the potential, i feel the dynamics.. i just need more time with partners willing to let go of the ego in search of the treasures..

Be well..

[Ronin22]

Wow, what a facinating and deep (like, black hole deep) discussion. Keep up the good work gentlemen!



SCOTT:
The following was quoted from your post
How would the form be parsed in a western sense? Aren't you saying basically practice more and you get better?






Amongst many Eastern marital arts the traditional method of teaching has been by the “Inside Out, method. The teacher models the actions and the student copies. Insight into proper execution is partly gained through comments from the teacher, but primarily the insight comes from within the student. The modeled movement is a seed planted into the students mind; the teacher applies periodic watering and nutrients by giving measured supporting information and periodically demonstrating the correct form. The form or technique may be applied to the student in order to provide further insights. But it is through continued practice and application that the student gains insight into the proper function and execution of technique. The student figures it out for himself through constant repetition. Over time, the correct form and application GROWS out of the student “of itself”! The optimal performance of the form is realized by FEEL, not by the technical parsing of the movements! This FEEL for the form provides insight and information of a different quality than from a form learned according to a linear method. The linear method may provide technical expertise, but the spirit of the person is not infused into the form through this manner of learning. This not only reduces the form’s quality, it impedes the development of the student’s inner quality as well.


!

[omarthefish]

If you don't mind my asking, what is "CTS" an abbreviation for?

[Ronin22]

TCB

When you say it's ridiulously easy to activate the system how do you go about it?

I'm guessing it has to be a physical and mental pursuit and maybe hard to explain but could you shed some light on this?

Thanks







Once you learn to activate the system (and it's ridiculously easy) it's almost a no-brainer to equate the sensation to the most valid feeling of "Peng" you have ever experienced.. trusting the CTS to work under bizarre circumstances (testing its limits), we stand with our feet together, activate the system, and.. stand in amazement as people apply tremendous pressure pushing our center to no avail, and with little to no active resistance.. the "Tensegrity" absorbs the energy and distributes it throughout the whole system, ultimately driving it into the ground and further stabilizing the apparent weak stance.. such a unique feeling..

Thanks, and.. Be well...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Omar: CTS.. Connective Tissue System.. review the whole thread and you will get an idea of its role in our discussion.. Thanks for asking, though..

Be well..

[Ronin22]

If you don't mind my asking, what is "CTS" an abbreviation for?

i think it's "connective tissue system"?

[omarthefish]

n the best tai chi I have seen in person or on video, the practitioners are all about alignment... In action, the push hands is all about leverage and alignment- and definite rooting... However, I have not seen any tai chi, even among the greats that I have watched, not use alignment or root in power delivery or in push hands.

Can you explain this in relation to this clip from about 1:20 on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEB9dmmJU6A

[omarthefish]

Greetings..

Hi Omar: CTS.. Connective Tissue System.. review the whole thread and you will get an idea of its role in our discussion.. Thanks for asking, though..

Be well..

You mean like that Mike Sigman stuff?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Ronin22: Well, this is just an example, but.. have someone stand in front of you and place their right hand on your left shoulder.. then, hold out your right arm at about 45° from srtaight ahead, parallel to the ground.. then, have them use 2 fingers and apply downward pressure at your wrist as you resist.. note how much pressure is needed to push your arm down... Next, repeat that exercise, except this time point, with your index finger, at a fixed distant object.. don't concentrate on the finger, just point at the object with a mediocre intensity, feeling the "tingle" on the palm side of the index finger.. note the difference in pressure required to push your arm downward.. which requires more pressure?

After you try this example, we can talk more about this unique effect.. and how it relates to the CTS..

Be well....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Omar:

Can you explain this in relation to this clip from about 1:20 on?Watch the older gentleman carefully, notice how often he "points" with his index finger.. each time he does that he re-establishes "energetic coherence".. note how he doesn't attempt to force or take contrived stances, he relies on natural movements, the ones his body has done for a lifetime.. he holds the elbows then "lifts the punch-bowl into the cabinet", a perfectly natural movement, free of "conflict"...

I pushed with Mike about 15 years ago, but can't really say.. i am not familiar with his current stuff.. he was very good back then, though..

Be well...

[Ronin22]

Thanks TCB

I'll give it a shot later and let you know what happens

[Nexus]

The goal of high level masters is not to have "no tension" in their muscles. The goal is to be empty in their form, which Scott essentially said earlier in his array of posts. I have a friend who in a fight tore out the nerves of his brachial plexes on his right side, meaning C4-C8 on his spinal cord no longer have the nerves connected to him. He has truly NO TENSION at all in his right arm.

:eek: He cannot flex, lift or even move his right arm whatsoever without the assistance of his left arm. He is completely paralyzed and thus has no tension and no ability to create tension. This is an extreme case but I'm using it to illustrate that having no tension at all is not the goal.

[Ronin22]

Check out this video, to me it looks like he is not rooted at all?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_xR32OJk0c

[Ronin22]

Here's another .......looks like some of those guys are applying some real resistance


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGHnusy2n38

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Videos, some good, some well.. different.. but, i have experienced some of this unique internal stuff.. usually on the receiving end.. it's quite real! The Tao, Universe, etc.. will give you what you believe it will, so.. keep the faith!

Be well..

[Nexus]

That first video is hard to determine anything since the student is so jumpy and rooted terribly. He's a scared wus of the guy and you learn very little.

The second video is a lot more interesting but the crux of it is that they are all his students, so there is little way to determine for certain without feeling his energy or being there in person whether or not his techniques are actually admissable. However, he does display good postures and structure in his poses and when he has the group laying against him and clears upwards, demonstrates about the only way you could effectively clear all those people off in a single movement, so he has some skills.

[gabe]

Here's another .......looks like some of those guys are applying some real resistance


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGHnusy2n38


On this one, I see him drop and drive. Impressive though.

The second one, I can't even comprehend if it's even real.

The first one from Omar, I don't see the internal power release. I don't see what he's doing to the younger guy. Call me stupid but I don't see it. I do see him drop his elbows and lean into the other guy, but he just seems to be explaining stuff and the other guys doesn't appear to be resisting or trying anything at all. Maybe you can point out a specific segment.

[gabe]

On this one, I see him drop and drive. Impressive though.

The second one, I can't even comprehend if it's even real.

The first one from Omar, I don't see the internal power release. I don't see what he's doing to the younger guy. Call me stupid but I don't see it. I do see him drop his elbows and lean into the other guy, but he just seems to be explaining stuff and the other guys doesn't appear to be resisting or trying anything at all. Maybe you can point out a specific segment.


TCB,
None of those videos demonstrate what you are talking about? John? Scott?

[imperialtaichi]

Hi Omar:
Watch the older gentleman carefully, notice how often he "points" with his index finger.. each time he does that he re-establishes "energetic coherence".. note how he doesn't attempt to force or take contrived stances, he relies on natural movements, the ones his body has done for a lifetime.. he holds the elbows then "lifts the punch-bowl into the cabinet", a perfectly natural movement, free of "conflict"...



Hello Tai Chi Bob,

Very observant! That's my teacher in Beijing.

One of his many tricks is the "Pointing Finger".... most of the time he conceals it so the opponent/observer wouldn't even know what he's doing, but when he is having fun and playing he makes it more obvious.

And another point that you may not be able to experience just by watching is that when you push onto him, he just stands there. No need to yield, no need to get into a stance, no need to do anything physical. It is not like you are pushing onto a strong brick wall where you can apply a lot of force, but like pushing into air and you cannot exert any force. He absolutely does NOT yield physically. He does not have to. And when he pushes you back, again the contact points stays very very soft yet you would feel like a ton of water hitting you all around. In the video, he was just doing it very gently on the guy in black. But when he does it to me, he often let it out more freely and I literally fly across the room.

How he does that in CTS terms? I'm extrapolating here... he not only "polarizes" his own CTS system, but polarizes the opponent's CTS as well.... at least that's what I think. And the experience I have is that after you've been thrown around by him, for a while you actually become better at issueing the energy yourself.

Cheers,
John

[omarthefish]

Greetings..

Hi Omar:
Watch the older gentleman carefully, notice how often he "points" with his index finger.. each time he does that he re-establishes "energetic coherence".. note how he doesn't attempt to force or take contrived stances, he relies on natural movements, the ones his body has done for a lifetime.. he holds the elbows then "lifts the punch-bowl into the cabinet", a perfectly natural movement, free of "conflict"...

I was actually directing that question to Gabe in repsonse to his statement that "... In action, the push hands is all about leverage and alignment- and definite rooting... ". I was curious to see how that clip would be explained without resorting to talking about intention or some abstract thing like "energetic connection" or whatnot.

I wanted to point especially to about 1:20 becaues that's where the student gets into a "rooted" stance while Wei Shuren remains just standing casually. The chatting from 1:00 - 1:20 is mostly Wei Shuren asking the other dude to get in a nice gong bu stance and checking to make sure he is planted well and ready.

Based on the chat, I don't see what the pointing has to do with making conneciton though. He points to explain what he's doing. At 2:00 he says, it's not a push here . It has nothing to do with this. (points with his finger) it's going like this...(traces and arc with his fingers and points to indicate the direction of the intent) Then he counts "1,2,3..." and on "3", pushes the guy back.

The next push around 2:15 where he puts the students hands on his chest, "...and when you push me...see, put your hands here....you can't move me. I move the energy around like this..." indicates pointing the path that he has returned the push on by pointing.

At 2:30 he points to the left behind the student to indicate the direction that he is about to dissolve the push. He yields to the left and sends out on the right. As he points he says, "Look. I'm over here, see?

At 2:45 he says, "To peng you out is really diffictult. Actually what I have to do is sink down. See? Up you go."

At 3:23 he points and motions explaining, "To use 'an' it's like this..." and traces the path that 'an' follows.

Again, at 4:15 when he is demoing "grasp sparrows tail" he points to explain that the important point is not where he is making contact. It's "over there (points behind the guy) that's important...."

Now he may still be using his fingers to make some sort of energetic connection but AFAIK, mostly he's just pointing out where the intention it. I would explain this clip in terms of yi, in terms of intent and in terms of borrowing force.



I pushed with Mike about 15 years ago, but can't really say.. i am not familiar with his current stuff.. he was very good back then, though..

Be well...

I asked about him because he seems to want to explain internal power largely in terms of the CTS. I remember large portions of his posts reffering to the facia and tendons and so on. So you are probably only the second time I have seen someone using that kind of language to try and describe certain ideas.

[omarthefish]

Imperial,

You posted while I was writing. lol. So you're with Wei Shuren. Cool. This is the first time I have met any of his students online.

I disagree that he is not yielding or doing anything physical. I can see where he is yielding on most pushes and where he is sending out. Like I said, most of it looks like a combination of borrowing and leading intention. You can't borrow without yielding. Borrowing is yielding....and then returing what you received plus interest. You can see it most clearly (or I can anyways) at 2:30 and again at 4:20 but really he does it on all of them to a degree.

[imperialtaichi]

I disagree that he is not yielding or doing anything physical. I can see where he is yielding on most pushes and where he is sending out.



Hello Omar,

I think our disagreement on "Yielding" is purely linguistic; In my mind yielding means falling back, giving way etc, the "Floppy Noodle" thing... but if what WSR did on the clip is considered Yielding, then yes, I totally agree with you that one must yield!

Cheers,
John

[qiphlow]

man, this is the best thread i've read on this forum! so are the techniques essentially the same for moving vs. stationary push hands? i've found that the sticking is the same, the listening is basically the same (except i have to pay more attention when i'm doing the moving push hands), but when i try to push, i still have to stop and "set" myself in order to get a good push. any thoughts?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ronin22,

I “parsed” ;) down my comment; here is the pertinent section.


The optimal performance of the form is realized by FEEL, not by the technical parsing of the movements! This FEEL for the form provides insight and information of a different quality than from a form learned according to a linear method. The linear method may provide technical expertise, but the spirit of the person is not infused into the form through this manner of learning. This not only reduces the form’s quality, it impedes the development of the student’s inner quality as well.

Parsing in the context of my statements means to break a movement down into basic parts. Once this is done the instructor would teach by the numbers, first put your foot here, then put your hand here, exhale at this point, and turn your head to the right....etc.

This is the linear method of learning. There is nothing wrong with this method, it is efficient and makes complex movements easier to understand and accomplish. This is a desirable method of teaching if one wishes to teach a group or an individual the correct movements quickly. It is an economic use of time. However, there is something that is not gained by the student when he learns this way. The student uses his brain differently when learning in a linear fashion, his perception of the movements becomes sectioned off and the “feeling” of unity of is absent. In a sense the “life” of the movement is lost, the indefinable coherence that occurs when one perceives and experiences the actions as a “whole” and not as separate increments! This occurs with all forms of parsed or linear learning and is not limited to the martial arts.

What is “not gained” cannot really be communicated, but is seen and understood by those that have some experience with it. It is also the quality that separates the work of a master calligrapher, master of the tea ceremony, master potter, or master wheelwright, etc. from a novice.

It is possible to acquire this coherence/unity feeling after one has learned in the linear fashion. I am merely commenting that amongst Asian cultures one method of learning has been to teach according in this fashion from the beginning, whereas in western cultures we tend to cut things up into their constituent parts and then teach in a linear fashion. The linear fashion results in a tendency towards a less than optimal worldview that perceives life as a collection of dead parts that fit together in a mechanical fashion rather than as a living whole. The whole is MORE than the sum of its parts; understanding of the parts does not necessarily bring with it an understanding or appreciation for the whole.

Either method of learning requires practice to perfect, the holistic method requires more practice however because one is learning by “feel” and we are not used to using our minds in this fashion. One is not just conditioning their body they are also conditioning their mind, or teaching themselves to think in a new fashion. As with all things, once we learn how to learn according to this new fashion it is easier to learn according to this method in the future.

[omarthefish]

Hello Omar,

I think our disagreement on "Yielding" is purely linguistic; In my mind yielding means falling back, giving way etc, the "Floppy Noodle" thing... but if what WSR did on the clip is considered Yielding, then yes, I totally agree with you that one must yield!

Cheers,
John

I was reading you post about the floppy thing earlier but didn't respond because my posts were getting too long already.

That is not really intellegent yielding. That get's right back to the phrase that brought me into this thread "bu diu bu ding". When a person is doing that, they have completely "diu" or "lost connection". There is no intent in that. It's random. Wei Shuren's changes are just too quick for most people to follow.

Anyways, there's two "tricks" that illustrate where the yielding is and how quick the changes are. One I can do reasonably well and will describe here. The other one maybe in a later post but since I can't do well myself, Ill leave it off. I only mention it because I see Wei Shuren doing it.

The one I can do with even some people with a fair but of Taiji training, not always but enough to know I grasp the concept - I put a hand on my partners torso and he puts his hand on the same place on mine. When we both push, he pushes himself out. It feels completely effortless to me. I borrow his force.

Assume we each have our right hands on each others torsos. When he pushes me, I have to yield to the push ever so slightly but I yield by rotating to the left. The circle the two of us make with our arms on the circumfance and the middle point in the space between us turns counter clockwise. For it to work I have to wait and listen for his push. When he pushes, I yield and the circle turns...so that my hand ends up pushing on him 180 degrees around on the other side of the circle but with his force.

The feedback loop is extremely short so most people don't see the yielding but if you don't yield on the one side then it becomes a contest of who has better root and you are not able to borrow his force.

You can see this principle at work most clearly at 2:34 in the clip.

His movements are just very very small.

[omarthefish]

p.s.

AFAIK, "yield" in Chinese is "rang" 让, the floppy arms thing, my teacher will immediately criticise people for. He says that is "random flopping around, not yielding. " he says, "Ni bie huluan niu!!!" (你别胡乱扭！！)

p.s.

Just was introduced to another clip that illustrates my point about yielding more clearly:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2758745705804600629&q=taiji+push+hands

The part where the time stamp says 10:06:30 shows it much more clearly than on the Wei Shuren clip. I was haveing a hard time pointing out where the yielding was happening. You can see how he is teaching the kid to yield at the point of contact and then borrowing force. The shift in angle lets the downward press fall into nothing and then the upward push takes advantage of the presser's desire to stand up again after kind of falling over forward. It's just that the yielding and the expressing jing all happen at the same time. They are not stages.

In the exercise I described in the previous post it happens horozontally. In this clip it happens vertically with the top of the circle rotating towards you, then down your body (along with the push) then curving around and up at the other guy.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Based on the chat, I don't see what the pointing has to do with making conneciton though. He points to explain what he's doing.omarthefish: Watch more closely, when he makes contact and begins controlling, his index finger begins to point.. this indicates clarity of intention and activation of the CTS.. he doesn't contrive rooting or set-up observable power postures, he relies on a much deeper "natural" energy..

And another point that you may not be able to experience just by watching is that when you push onto him, he just stands there. No need to yield, no need to get into a stance, no need to do anything physical. It is not like you are pushing onto a strong brick wall where you can apply a lot of force, but like pushing into air and you cannot exert any force. He absolutely does NOT yield physically. He does not have to.imperialtaichi: That is one of the most amazing internal feelings i have experienced.. when the CTS is active there is an observable buzz inside you, pressure applied is distributed throughout the whole system ("Tensegrity").. as the system adapts to applied pressure the buzz increases, and it is not difficult to direct the excess downward into the ground (Song/Sung).. similarly, the pressure can be redirected at will, as you imply.. repulsing the person applying the pressure.. the clip is one of the best observable examples i have seen of this..

Another important issue is keeping the body mass forward of center.. setting the weight on the arch and ball of the feet, keeping the heel grounded but not weight-bearing.. the heel is "round", weight born on the heel is a recipe for disaster.. it's like standing on a ball, no support from the back..also, the weight situated in the ball/arch is another CTS activation key.. it sends the internal message that we are "active", weight on the heels says we are stationary/at rest.. try jumping from the heels only, without using the rest of the foot.. there is a huge connection to the foot forward of the heel, it solidifies control and the CTS power connection to the ground.. the heels are used as a brace, but the weight must be forward of the heels.. This is where a slight flexing of the "jumping" pattern used by the front portion of the feet sends a burst of energy through the CTS.. people go flying away, seemingly without much observable effort.. It is noteworthy that when the spine is straightened and perpendicular to the ground, the body mass is forward of the spine.. this appropriately sets the weight forward of the heel.. most people perceive this as "leaning" forward, it is not.. study the mechanics, it is fascinating.. bend the knees about 10°, roll the pelvis forward, and set the spine perpendicular to the ground by adjusting the spine from the hips.. if the pelvis is centered over the arches of the feet you should feel the weight shift to the balls/arches of the feet.. pull in the chin and lift the BaHui.. and, if things are aligned properly, you should feel the tingle of the CTS springing into action..

From the description above, you can stand with your feet side by side and absorb a remarkable amount of force applied directly to your center.. just like the clip of Wei Shuren.. the same technique applied to a Bow stance is remarkable in its ability to maintain position under enormous pressure.. By comparison, drop your weight into the heels.. you can physically feel the body sag and loose energetic coherence, you can feel the loss of structural integrity and the instability of standing on the round heels..

Be well...

[omarthefish]

Greetings..

omarthefish: Watch more closely, when he makes contact and begins controlling, his index finger begins to point.. this indicates clarity of intention and activation of the CTS.. he doesn't contrive rooting or set-up observable power postures, he relies on a much deeper "natural" energy..

Dude, while I agree with you on some of this stuff and respect your observations, for a Chinese speaker, all this stuff about the pointing is just silly. He's talking to the student and when he points he says, "over there" and points where me means or says "like this" and illustrates by pointing.

Wasn't it you who was saying you learned these concepts in Chiense? Or was that imperial? Or maybe it was just Cantonese or something because every single time Wei Shuren points in that clip...every single time it accompanies his speech in a very NON-mysterious or obtuse way. He points in the same way all teachers point. "Your right foot is in the wrong place" (points at your right foot) or "I am going to push you over there.." (points over there to indicate) etc.

I've been avoiding saying this because it doesn't really mean he's not necessarily doing any of that other stuff with the CTS or whatever but listening to him speak makes it really hard to see his pointing as anything more than just pointing in the same way any old college professor points at a map or at the overhead display to indicate what he is referring to. :rolleyes:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Omar: Please review the clip more closely, i am NOT referring to his gestures.. it is during the actual play that you can observe the pointing (ie: rigid or less relaxed index finger).. occasionally, as he uses one hand, the other has the index finger extended.. Please note that even his own student, imperialtaichi (John), acknowledges the same issue..
Very observant! That's my teacher in Beijing. It takes a practiced eye to observe these nuances, but.. they are clear and great examples of the important things we routinely miss.. until i was educated on these matters i would have missed it, too.. I certainly wouldn't waste my time and yours if i didn't believe, based on personal experience, that there was superior merit in this matter.. if i am incorrect in my perceptions i apologize to anyone that may be affected, but.. i can find no inconsistencies in my personal experience with these issues.. and the clip is a pretty darn good example of the matters of which i have been been focused lately..

Be well..

[gabe]

Seems that I'm the only one not on this wavelength.

That video Omar posted, I don't see the younger gentleman trying to maintain his root or offerting any resistance to the teacher. It all appears to be compliant for discussion purposes.

I don't doubt what John says about him, just haven't seen it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

gabe: I know what you mean, it has that appearance.. but, until you feel the difference between "powering" someone and "naturally" moving someone, the observation of it will seem compliant.. the person being moved simply can't comprehend what is happening, a lot of the compliant appearance is the confusion that manifests as your most powerful stance is delicately destroyed.. initially, it is quite disturbing to the victim.. my first response was "WTF", how can this be!!! but, the more you understand, the more you can observe and appreciate.. the look on the victim's face is priceless.. and i use "victim" because that is how you feel, like this is some kind of practical joke.. but, after a bit you realize that the person using these techniques is very aware of things you only dream of..

Be well..

[imperialtaichi]

By comparison, drop your weight into the heels.. you can physically feel the body sag and loose energetic coherence, you can feel the loss of structural integrity and the instability of standing on the round heels..



Hello TCBob,

Another interesting point you've made....

WSR mentioned that when someone's exerting a force onto you and your feet have to push hard against the ground, you are using force and not really utilizing the internal properly. This is quite similar to your experience.

Cheers,
John

[gabe]

Some people are victorious because they take advantage of their opponent's lack of root or position. Sensitivity allows them to find the weakness in their opponent's root, they flow until they find it and root isn't necessary to throw a guy that has no root, just simple mechanics or leverage.

In other situations, one may use a root or position that is simply superior to their opponent's strong root when they are opposing each other head on.

In that first video, as you folks say, the master uses a casual relaxed stance. If I or some musclehead were to assume a root, like a bow and arrow stance, and push on him with all our strength, are you guys saying that I will be unable to move him even an inch while he stands casually and upright, feet beneath the shoulders? I won't be able to force him to take a step back? Is this the power of the CTS you folks are describing?

[Ronin22]

Here is a bow and arrow stance. Might not be the same thing since the pushee is using the same stance


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKOeT0e4dqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1u-_1-me4&mode=related&search=

[Ronin22]

Hi Ronin22,

I “parsed” ;) down my comment; here is the pertinent section.



Parsing in the context of my statements means to break a movement down into basic parts. Once this is done the instructor would teach by the numbers, first put your foot here, then put your hand here, exhale at this point, and turn your head to the right....etc.

This is the linear method of learning. There is nothing wrong with this method, it is efficient and makes complex movements easier to understand and accomplish. This is a desirable method of teaching if one wishes to teach a group or an individual the correct movements quickly. It is an economic use of time. However, there is something that is not gained by the student when he learns this way. The student uses his brain differently when learning in a linear fashion, his perception of the movements becomes sectioned off and the “feeling” of unity of is absent. In a sense the “life” of the movement is lost, the indefinable coherence that occurs when one perceives and experiences the actions as a “whole” and not as separate increments! This occurs with all forms of parsed or linear learning and is not limited to the martial arts.

What is “not gained” cannot really be communicated, but is seen and understood by those that have some experience with it. It is also the quality that separates the work of a master calligrapher, master of the tea ceremony, master potter, or master wheelwright, etc. from a novice.

It is possible to acquire this coherence/unity feeling after one has learned in the linear fashion. I am merely commenting that amongst Asian cultures one method of learning has been to teach according in this fashion from the beginning, whereas in western cultures we tend to cut things up into their constituent parts and then teach in a linear fashion. The linear fashion results in a tendency towards a less than optimal worldview that perceives life as a collection of dead parts that fit together in a mechanical fashion rather than as a living whole. The whole is MORE than the sum of its parts; understanding of the parts does not necessarily bring with it an understanding or appreciation for the whole.

Either method of learning requires practice to perfect, the holistic method requires more practice however because one is learning by “feel” and we are not used to using our minds in this fashion. One is not just conditioning their body they are also conditioning their mind, or teaching themselves to think in a new fashion. As with all things, once we learn how to learn according to this new fashion it is easier to learn according to this method in the future.



Thanks Scott I understand now

Is this a daoist view or buddhist? Or, just an general eastern view?

Thanks

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Gabe: Well, yes and no.. for someone with well developed CTS skills, it would be quite difficult to over-power them with muscle power, but.. they are few and far between.. but even the moderately skilled at CTS use will absorb much more force than can be dealt with by purely muscular responses.. certainly, physics will play a role in this perspective too, but it is beyond reason when you have the direct experience.. No one is invincible!

The CTS will permit the absorbing of huge forces.. mix that with the CTS's ability to issue "natural" force with equal intensity, and.. it becomes quite the task to simply over-power a CTS knowledgable player with muscle and alignment only..

Rather than look for faults in the CTS, why not try to explore it and sense its worth by direct experience? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.. so far, no one that i have directly exposed this system to has rejected it, they each are diligently pursuing it and reporting great successes.. i cannot argue with the evidence.. once someone feels it, they invariably say, "this changes everything"

Be well..

[Ronin22]

Sorry for all the links.
Here is another with some pointing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXFWgeV0EbI&mode=related&search=

[gabe]

Here is a bow and arrow stance. Might not be the same thing since the pushee is using the same stance


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKOeT0e4dqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1u-_1-me4&mode=related&search=


There is root and alignment in both.

[gabe]

Greetings..

Hi Gabe: Well, yes and no.. for someone with well developed CTS skills, it would be quite difficult to over-power them with muscle power, but.. they are few and far between.. but even the moderately skilled at CTS use will absorb much more force than can be dealt with by purely muscular responses.. certainly, physics will play a role in this perspective too, but it is beyond reason when you have the direct experience.. No one is invincible!

The CTS will permit the absorbing of huge forces.. mix that with the CTS's ability to issue "natural" force with equal intensity, and.. it becomes quite the task to simply over-power a CTS knowledgable player with muscle and alignment only..

Rather than look for faults in the CTS, why not try to explore it and sense its worth by direct experience? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.. so far, no one that i have directly exposed this system to has rejected it, they each are diligently pursuing it and reporting great successes.. i cannot argue with the evidence.. once someone feels it, they invariably say, "this changes everything"

Be well..

I'm not looking for faults, I'm trying to understand. So I appreciate your responses and hope that you continue.

[gabe]

Sorry for all the links.
Here is another with some pointing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXFWgeV0EbI&mode=related&search=


Is this an example of CTS use?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Hi Gabe: the video referenced is difficult to discern.. it may be, but.. the biggest clue, for me.. is the relaxed humor displayed by the seated gentleman.. he is completely at ease with the situation, seeming not to have anything but a natural delight in the immediate situation, so.. it seems that his demeanor and the limited performance in low quality video "suggest" he may understand CTS at some level..

And, i apologize if it seemed i was insinuating that you were looking for faults, it was a general comment.. your inquiries seem sincere and are actually well received, they cause me to examine my own beliefs.. if i can't answer or find the answer then, i will have questions, too.. if there's a problem with the system, i want to know it too..

Be well..

[gabe]

Again, thanks for you response, TCB.

That video, as well as the second one posted, there was actually pushing without barely any contact. That is even a stretch from your example with W. Chen, which seems more plausible to me.

John, what are your thoughts on it?
Scott?

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Ronin22,


Thanks Scott I understand now

Is this a daoist view or buddhist? Or, just an general eastern view?

Thanks

From what I understand about it, it is more of a Chinese and Japanese cultural characteristic. I do not know whether it extends to Korea or other Asian cultures because I have much less experience with them. Both Ch’an and Taoist thought teach direct perception (perception without linear mental comment) which results in this holistic method of instruction. However, we must understand that this method is not entirely without analytical thought. Analytical thought is just not allowed to interfere with the FEELING during the learning process, or perhaps the interference is minimized. We cannot entirely escape analytical/linear thinking; this method is just not AS analytical/linear as western methods TEND to be.



Hi gabe,

I have not had the opportunity to see the clips yet. I don’t have broadband at home so you can imagine how long it takes for me to download just one clip. My broadband is at work and I spent all my spare time last night setting up my new laptop. If the conversation does not pass me by before I have the opportunity to see them I will try to comment.

[imperialtaichi]

John, what are your thoughts on it?



Hello Gabe,

The person in the yellow T-Shirt shows nothing unusual. If he'd been able to do the one leg thing without leaning, or if he could throw the eight people back it would have been more interesting. Anyone can tell he was struggling as well.

The person sitting down, however is quite a different story. He showed very good abilities, and is similar to what I have experenced. Although I cannot hear clearly what he was saying, it is clear that he directed the energy down to the "opponent's" root to "sweep" him off his feet as he pointed the finger downwards.

Cheers,
John

[Anderzander]

One thing about tension is that you need a LOT less to stand up than anyone seems to think! :)

It seems that as long as relaxation is viewed as something akin to an endless journey, then the development of 'sung' will go on unabaited.

At the point where someone decides they know the limits of sung, presuming they haven't regained the suppleness of an infant, they stop learning.