Do-it-Yourself Wooden Dummy

[Ernie]

he my dummy has been sitting on the floor in my apt for 5 years never bothered to put it up [ didn't want to drive my neighbors crazy and the stands are just to big ,
wondering if anyone has come up with some small space saver stands that still keep it a [LIVE] dummy , I have seen some fixed metal ones but the dummy would have no play and that just sucks :D

thanks in advance guys
Ernie

[Phil Redmond]

he my dummy has been sitting on the floor in my apt for 5 years never bothered to put it up [ didn't want to drive my neighbors crazy and the stands are just to big ,
wondering if anyone has come up with some small space saver stands that still keep it a [LIVE] dummy , I have seen some fixed metal ones but the dummy would have no play and that just sucks :D

thanks in advance guys
Ernie
Forum member Curtis (C.A.G.) make dummies/arms, and portable stands. He made one for me that I can put in my car. It is very alive as well. I'll email you a jpeg of the stand.
Phil

[Ernie]

Forum member Curtis (C.A.G.) make dummies/arms, and portable stands. He made one for me that I can put in my car. It is very alive as well. I'll email you a jpeg of the stand.
Phil

cool hook me up phil and a link for curtis :D

[Tom Kagan]

I've also found it rather peculiar regarding the incredible complexity of some dummy stands.

I don't have personal experience with it, but this stand seems both interesting and rather elegant in its engineering.
http://little-raven.com/RS/MA/Jong.html#anchor767140

On a related note, while I agree a dummy with a certain liveliness is a much, much better "partner", a dummy with a completely dead trunk also has its own unique qualities which could be beneficial to training purposes. It's usually the dummies in between those two points that suck.

[Ernie]

Thanks guys ,
I have been in contact with a few people , even found a guy that will custom build you a hand carved hardwood dummy with you school logo for $400

i'm on the hunt for the Koo Sang specs !!!

keep up the suggestions

[Phil Redmond]

Here's the dummy stand.
Phil

[stonecrusher69]

Phil..I like that stand do you have that one? Is it stable? do you know what he's charging?

[Phil Redmond]

Phil..I like that stand do you have that one? Is it stable? do you know what he's charging?
Yes it's very stable. I can disassemble it and put in in the back seat of my car. I take it to the park as you see in the picture. What I like about it is that it moves when you strike it but it doesn't fall over. He attached the stand to a PVC dummy that I already had. The dummies Curtis makes has springs in the back. Mine doesn't. I just checked the member's list and he uses Curtis here. You should PM him to get more details. He can also make arms, legs, wooden BJD, etc. I have Koo Sang dummy and I had him make extra arms so my students won't damage the original arms. ;)
Phil

[dfl]

On a related note, while I agree a dummy with a certain liveliness is a much, much better "partner", a dummy with a completely dead trunk also has its own unique qualities which could be beneficial to training purposes. It's usually the dummies in between those two points that suck.

Could you elucidate on what beneficial qualities a dead dummy may provide? Not being a connoisseur of dummies, I am at a loss to find any usefulness to a totally dead dummy. By dead, do you mean totally rigid in all aspects, or is there still play at the limbs?

[curtis]

Hello everyone.

And thank you Phil, for the kind words. ;-)

I've been talking to Ernie, about how to make his own dummy stand.I have made many different stands over the years. (but that's not why Im replying. I don't want to toot my own horn.) the reason why I am replying is to first say thanks, and secondly is to perhaps help on the last question.

"totally dead dummy. By dead, do you mean totally rigid in all aspects, or is there still play at the limbs?"
dfl

The dummies origins are somewhat shaky, but most draw a line back to the sholin temples. I really don't know what they had or didn't have there.
the dead dummy was a solid tree truck that was sunk in the ground, the body didn't move, so It was known as a dead body. (I'm not sure for sure but...) I do believe the arms and leg had a little play in them. But the body did not .
later, Some one (KooSand/ William Cheung, Williams brother.) had the dummy re-made and put on a stand so it could be moved. this stand gave the dummy more play, or aliveness, than the berried tree did, So Yip Man called an Alive dummy.
at least that's how I understand it. (there are two other people who also clamed responsibly for making the dummy, but at this time I cant think of there names.But know there may be others not stated.)
The mook jong is a great training tool. Today's dummies are being made by more highly skilled craftsman than ever before, The more people who get involved the more things change.
Ive made my own changes to the ones I make, Some like it some don't. its very much like WingChun its self. There is no one, exact way to see what is and why it is being done, each master sees things slightly differently, Each adds there own view of the Art. IS this Bad? I think it is good, But it makes things somewhat complicated.Depending on your view,or teachers view.of WHAT IS Wing Chung.

C.A.G.

[dfl]

Hello everyone.


the dead dummy was a solid tree truck that was sunk in the ground, the body didn't move, so It was known as a dead body. (I'm not sure for sure but...) I do believe the arms and leg had a little play in them. But the body did not .

C.A.G.

Curtis,

Thank you for your comments. I am aware of the old style dummies being buried in the ground. I have seen PN's dummy (on tape) and am somewhat familiar with the YKS dummy setup. But even in those cases, they make sure the hole in the ground is big enough so there's enough play on the trunk so the dummy rocks back and forth when hit. So I am still wondering what "dead" means to Tom and what kind of usefulness one can derive from it.

[Ernie]

Dead is just that dead [ no recoil ] some dummys are sluggish [ slow timing ] those suck to , some to tight , this might as well be dead

it also comes down to how you use it and your understanding [creativity and imagination ]

some use it as heavy bag and get there rocks off banging it [ to much power over commitment habits ]
some use it as a speed bag whoopee I can do my dummy form in 60sec , well your a dumb @ss since you missed the whole point on developing functional alignment
this takes giving the neurological system and body mechanics time to sink in

yet others more traditional types keep a smooth steady flow with measured power release for this the need some recoil to send there power into the dummy and not keep it in there hands
this is the best "basic'' approach

for this you need a live dummy

a step above the basic approach is understanding timing and half beats , being able to send power into the dummy and move into your next position before the recoil catches you

you learn to not just send but receive add to or stall the dummys motion just like a person [ with some focused imagination ]

for this you really need a live dummy with the right type of recoil

so I guess it really depends on you

are you a person with a hard on for pounding power
a speed freak
a traditionalist
or a creative thinker with imagination and feel

another way to look at is the difference between a dead fixed drill or a live flowing drill ;)

[YongChun]

Wang Kiu in Holland used the term "Live Dummy" to refer to the two people version of the dummy that he said Yip Man taught him in a restaurant. In this version, one side throws punches and the other side goes through the dummy movements.

A good live dummy by the other definition feels like playing a good instrument. The recoil is just right and the sound is just right. The dummy is not too loose and not too firm. Hitting a tree with arms sticking out of it, just doesn't give the same good feeling. If you do a double palm hit to someone's stomach which causes him to bend forward to expose the head, the the timing and feeling of that and doing that on a good dummy is similar.

With a good dummy it's a joy to train on it but with a bad one you wll tend not to use it too much.

Ray

[curtis]

dfl

both Ernie's and Rays comments are nice and to the point.
I found an article stating almost the same things as these two arts stated.

"The Wang Kiu lineage also trains a partner version of the Dummy which they refer to as the "Live Dummy." Other lineages call the suspended dummy the "Live Dummy" as compared to the one planted in the ground. I don't know if the "Live Dummy" is Wang Kiu's training procedure or if it comes from Yip Man? However it is logical and can be thought up my any smart person. There can be many variations too."
From http://www.springtimesong.com

As Ray stated ( and this article did .) there are many different ways to use the wooden man dummy.
I was taught that the dummy was suppose to be a personal training parker, Everything you know, can be and should be used on the dummy. Flow,and proper powerlines are my primary goal. as well as depth control (for striking),and having the ability to maintain a proper powerline (or base) while moving. I have many different drills to work on the dummy, from closing from a distance , to working on proper line work of all my techniques,(from lop soa, fook soa, bil jee, pak soa...) can and should be applied on the dummy.
For me the ability to adapt and train those neuro-responses are the utmost importance.
The 108 and 116 move forums are great, and I'm not tiring to belittle them, I just believe that a free form stile can offer a lot to those who train on the mook jong.
A free flowing exercise is what I stress. (for my own private training.)
but thats just me.
have a good night.

[El Tejon]

Ernie, years ago when I had an apartment, I mounted my mook in a corner of the living room in a half-version of the stand that you see from Ip Man schools (wall to wall, not just on one wall). Lubed it with some spary on polymer/silicon lube that I used on my pistols.

It worked out really well (had to watch it on 2nd set kick or my head would hit wall, but that was good training to stand up). When I moved out, I fixed the holes and sanded down the dry wall. Landlord never said anything.

Sifu Redmon, wow, that's brilliant! Thanks for posting that photo (I'm stealing this idea, just so you know). :D

[curtis]

El Tejon
Phil Redmonds dummy stand is one of mine.
Im glad you like it.
if you want to see some others,or a closer look at that stand e-mail me. curtgeorge@wowway.com
I have others as well!
that stand is called the poratable stand.

C.A.G.

[Ernie]

Ernie, years ago when I had an apartment, I mounted my mook in a corner of the living room in a half-version of the stand that you see from Ip Man schools (wall to wall, not just on one wall). Lubed it with some spary on polymer/silicon lube that I used on my pistols.

It worked out really well (had to watch it on 2nd set kick or my head would hit wall, but that was good training to stand up). When I moved out, I fixed the holes and sanded down the dry wall. Landlord never said anything.

Sifu Redmon, wow, that's brilliant! Thanks for posting that photo (I'm stealing this idea, just so you know). :D

Tejon ,
I'm trying to talk my girl in letting me set up in the second room but i still need a portable when i teach since i do privates most week nights and the pounding of the dummy might bug the old crabby people down stairs :D

[Kevin Bell]

Screw the old crabby people downstairs bro, if you get this considerate your one step away from neighbourhood watch meetings and listening with interest when they moan on about the corns on their feet... Dont go turning middleaged on me

[cobra]

My Sifu has a dummy that is mounted to the wall with springs and I think there is one on the bottom too, but I can't remember. I'd look but I'm in Iraq right now and is hard to see from here. My eyes aren't that good anymore. I'm not sure if Leung Ting is selling them like that or not. The springs were about 4-5 inches long and about 1" - 1 1/4" in diameter and they were attached to the normal attaching point on the dummy, but it had a steel bracket there. The spring on the bottom was a lot larger at the bottom and spiraled in tighter at the top where it connects to the bottom of the dummy. The spring on the bottom was probably about 0 or 00 gauge steel and the others were approximately 6 or 8 gauge steel. I'd like to be more specific, but I'm recalling this from a little while ago. Good luck! This method of mounting literally takes up no more room than the body of the dummy itself and it is just as good or better than the traditional mounts. Of course, you'll have to make that decision.

[MightyB]

Hi,

I was wondering if any of you could point me to a couple of plans online for building my own PVC "wooden" Dummy. I tried searching your forum and couldn't find any posts on the subject.

Thanks,

The B

[Fa Kuen]

http://home.iprimus.com.au/peterlyleward/tut.dummy.html

Here you go and good luck!

[viper]

Im building a wooden dummy at the moment ive seen some sites about making a pvc dummy. I think it was at the ving tsun archive. The only real diff is the materials and some minor adjustment by memory.,

[IronFist]

See the link in my sig :)

[Stevo]

Just choose any online plan that suits you (there are quite a few free plans around that you'll find through a Google search) and adapt it to PVC. You only need simple tools, basic skills and a small amount of patience.

Steve

[Airdrawndagger]

Hello
I was curious about the proper positioning of the wooden dummy arms, but more specifically the top two arms.
Do both arms have to be the same height, or equal height? Or can one arm be slightly higher than the other?
On mine, the left arm is slightly higher than the right(If I was facing it).
Is this OK???
Thanks,

Ricky

[Chief Fox]

I've seen them both ways. It probably just depends on personal preference. I built my dummy so the arms would be even.

http://www.mccarriedesign.com/wooden_dummy/

[Jedi-X]

All of the dummies that I have touched over the years have had one arm higher than the other. I have only seen pictures of dummies where both arms are on the same level. As a matter of fact my dummy has one arm higher then the other.

[YongChun]

According to Wang Kiu a student of Yip Man (via his student Dr. Khoe) the two arms were meant to be level. The standard Hong Kong dummy arms are constructed in such a way that you can mount the two arms to try to get to the level effect. Thus one arm hangs down and the other goes upwards because the square part of the arm is not centered like it would be if you just lathed the arm. The arms are level because you symmetrically do the same thing on the right and the left. If you substitute a person punching you so that you can practice the Bong sau and turn for example, then the punch hits your arm at the same place whether you turn to the left or turn to the right.

According to Patrick Chow, a student of Yip Man, some people had two dummies with one having the left arm higher and one having the left arm lower. Perhaps those were early dummies where the arms weren't made as in the above description. It's not very practical to have two dummies however.

If you look at the forms, everything is pretty symmetrical left and right. The dummy does have a function to serve as sort of a device to keep your positions accurate. So in this light having a perfectly symmetrical dummy makes sense.

However there are all kinds of dummies that can be used by a Wing Chun practitioner. For example you can play dummy with a tree that has all kinds of branches sticking out of it at different angles, hights and different degrees of suppleness. This Hong Kong magazine called Real Kung Fu (early 1980's?) had an article about a Yip Man student who designed all kinds of innovative dummies including the electric kind.

Ray

[anerlich]

I think Ray is correct. WC is meant to be a symmetrical system, I can't see any skill development related reason for having one arm higher, other than making construction of the dummy easier. There may be arcane cultural reasons, but I can't see how those would help anyone become a more proficient practitioner.

[Fajing]

Hello
I was curious about the proper positioning of the wooden dummy arms, but more specifically the top two arms.
Do both arms have to be the same height, or equal height? Or can one arm be slightly higher than the other?
On mine, the left arm is slightly higher than the right(If I was facing it).
Is this OK???
Thanks,

Ricky


Dude, mine is slightly higher as well. Not enough to be a big deal. It's basically the way they constructed it. I think it's fine as long as it's minor.

[Airdrawndagger]

Thanks for the replys

Yeah i mean the left arm is about 2 1/2 inches higher. Ive seem more with the left higher than both even.
At the end of the day I suppose it really shouldnt make much difference. I dont think i will learn "wrong" because of that, especially if you also chi sao.

[Liddel]

I too have noticed the difference.
I agree with the symetrical idea put foward but my personal preference is this.

When i first began the dummy actions i found my left Bong Sao was harder to apply on the dummy i used which had the left side higher than the right.
The space to put Bong Sao out is smaller, and the left arm makes its path more narrow.

After some thinking about it, i do prefer it this way, because for me i am right handed and my left Bong Sao is not as acurate in the way i put it out.

The Left side being higher helps my left Bong Sao to be more accurate as it must drill in a downwards motion missing the left arm on the dummy.

We have several different Bong Sao's, up to down, drilling out etc. The difference in using it face to face or with a turn....
So for me it serves a purpose of refining the side on which i am least competent at.
We train to feel competent and comfortable making the actions our own, so what feels better for you ?
Thats my opinion.

[anerlich]

because for me i am right handed and my left Bong Sao is not as acurate

A-HA! The whole world, and now especially WC itself, is designed to keep us lefties as the underclass! :mad:

Just kidding, I've been told one of the reasons why everything in WC starts on the left is that that is most people's weaker side and thus you're made to work it more. Doesn't make a lot of sense really, since you mostly end up working both sides pretty much equal anyway , but that's what I heard.

[Phil Redmond]

Here's Yip Man's personal dummy in Fatshan. It has level arms.
Phil

[russellsherry]

hi phill i have seen some really bad dummy poor craftmanship made here but the yip man dummy looks like the dummy my first sifu had i have seen the same sort, at sifu cheungs chinatown school peace russellsherry ps anerlick i red somewhere one of your guys is making dummes, how about a photo russell

[Liddel]

Just to play devils advocate here -
Phil did you take that photo ?

It looks to me that the left arm is about one inch higher, if you look at where the arm meets the trunk they are offset.
This is what i see, is it an illusion from the angle in the pic ? did you see it in person ?
Curious.

Plus - anerlich said
"I've been told one of the reasons why everything in WC starts on the left is that that is most people's weaker side and thus you're made to work it more."

We believe the same thing at my school (im the assistant not the Sifu) so when i teach a lefty, i start him with the right hand. :)

Its more a physco sematic kinda thing - i agree "Doesn't make a lot of sense really, since you mostly end up working both sides pretty much equal anyway"
:rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

Just to play devils advocate here -
Phil did you take that photo ?

It looks to me that the left arm is about one inch higher, if you look at where the arm meets the trunk they are offset.
This is what i see, is it an illusion from the angle in the pic ? did you see it in person ?
Curious.

Plus - anerlich said
"I've been told one of the reasons why everything in WC starts on the left is that that is most people's weaker side and thus you're made to work it more."

We believe the same thing at my school (im the assistant not the Sifu) so when i teach a lefty, i start him with the right hand. :)

Its more a physco sematic kinda thing - i agree "Doesn't make a lot of sense really, since you mostly end up working both sides pretty much equal anyway"
:rolleyes:
Hi, I didn't take the pic. It's part of a tour of Fatshan. But I know people who have gone there and they say the arms are level. And even if the arms were uneven in the picture. The plans that Yip Man gave to Cheung King Kong had level arms. What has probaly happened was the tangs on the upperdummy arms are offset. If you place them into the trunk one way they'll be offset and another way they'll be even.
Phil

[schwarzdragon]

I have used several wooden dummies in my wc training. The first looked like the one in Sifu Redmond's picture where both arms were the same height. I trained at Master Jiang's Wing Chun school in Indonesia last summer. He had 3 wooden dummies that were made from Teak wood, but the arms appeared to be parallel to each other. I build one in my basement that is similar to the specifications that I got off of someone's website a few years ago. It was always my opinion that you must work both limbs equally to promote independent movement of the limbs.
Happy Thanksgiving!

[Phil Redmond]

The tangs on the upperdummy upper arms are offset. If you place them into the trunk one way they'll be uneven and another way they'll be even. So for those that advocate uneven arms simply insert them in the trunk so they'll be uneven. Problem solved. ;)
Phil

[Liddel]

Phil said -
"What has probaly happened was the tangs on the upperdummy arms are offset. If you place them into the trunk one(edit) way they'll be offset and another way they'll be even"

This i understand, but if this is true then one way would have the arms moving side to side with 'x' amount of room, then turning them the other way would mean they have less/none or more/some room to move. Just a thought.

Either way its irrelevant because it is a preference, i just like to discuss for my own understanding, Thanks Phil :)

I'd like to explore the "working both sides equally" idea just out of interest.

As already stated i believe in the Left side higher dummy, and i understand the same height crowd mentallity which at face value makes sence to me, but ive been thinking this....

If the "same height" crowd believes in "working both sides equally" then i ask what would be 'unequal' about having one side higher in terms of your applied actions ?

The only effect i see it having, is making your left Bong Sao harder to apply as i previously mentioned, 'the higher left arm makes Bong Sao's path more narrow'.
but in my mind i see no other effect (yet :) ).

So in short - both level and Lop sided dummies (if you will) have only one difference in terms of applied VT actions and that is the "Bong Sao effect (TM) :D"

Thoughts....

Liddel

[Phil Redmond]

. . .This i understand, but if this is true then one way would have the arms moving side to side with 'x' amount of room, then turning them the other way would mean they have less/none or more/some room to move. Just a thought.
That wouldn't make a difference. I have a Koo Sang dummy and the tangs and the square "holes" are the same size so movement would be the same regardless of how you inserted the tangs. The plans given to CKK have the arms level as well.

If the "same height" crowd believes in "working both sides equally" then i ask what would be 'unequal' about having one side higher in terms of your applied actions ?
We are taught to cover 'gates'. I want my tan sau to cover the uppergate so I'd require the arms to be the same on both sides. I'd use the lower arm to cover the middle gate
Phil

[Liddel]

I see what your saying Phil but for the sake of this discussion..... If the the tangs are square then how do you have them 'Level' when inserted one way and 'one side higher' if you inserted them the other way. Square means equal on all sides does it not.... ?

"The tangs on the upperdummy upper arms are offset. If you place them into the trunk one way they'll be uneven and another way they'll be even."

I think i may be missing something here, its difficult to describe and not to see...
:rolleyes:

Just to clarify im not debating your call "The plans given to GKK have the arms level as well."
Im just discussing the mindset of preference over the two different dummies thats all :D

I mean by my stated rationale about why to use the uneven dummy - it fits the equation because Gm Ip would hardly need to refine his Bong Sao with an uneven dummy....
Its kinda like the church accepting the Big Bang theory because it still leaves room for God.
:) :D

"We are taught to cover 'gates'. I want my tan sau to cover the uppergate so I'd require the arms to be the same on both sides. I'd use the lower arm to cover the middle gate"

This would make sence to me if your forearm was an inch long Phil :D.
I use the 'left arm higher' dummy the same way as you describe. But we are only talking an inch higher (approx) than the right. But often things have a simple answer so it could be that minor ???

I just think a comming punch from a human can vary even greater and still warrent the use of Tan Sao so what i was looking for was something more than just a difference of height, especially such a small difference. Food for thought.

Interesting, thanks for enduldging me. Anyone else got different ideas ? or has Phil hit it on the head ?
:)

[Phil Redmond]

These pics are the same Koo Sang dummy. Notice that the cavitiy in the trunk is square and the tang is square.

Unlevel arms (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/unlevel_arms.JPG)
Level arms (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/level_arms.JPG)
Trunk square (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/square1.JPG)
Tang square (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/square2.JPG)
Tang offset (http://www.sifupr.com/pics/offset-tang.JPG)

Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Hel Liddel, my forearm is a little longer than an inch. LOL.
Please go to the bottom of this page http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp
Our Tan Sau is ONLY used to cover the face (upper gate). If a strike goes any lower than the face another position is used.
Go here: http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp and scroll down to here: Wooden Dummy Sections 1-4 and Application.
Click on the first icon. Notice how the tan sau covers the face? That's why "we" need the arms level in order to cover a strike coming towards the face on either side. What others do is not my concern as long as it works for them.
Phil

[Airdrawndagger]

Does it really make a difference?

Regardless of whatever type of hand position, tan, fook, bong-They all have ranges. When you apply any of these postions on a live opponent you are going to adjust the height, force vectors applied.
The dummy teaches proper elignment and shouldnt be taken as absolute.
Plus, you dont have to always fook, tan, bong the left/right arm(facing the dummy) with your left/right arm. You can fook, tan, bong the opposite arm with your opposite side so you can feel the differences from both as demoed with in the form.
I have seen GM Ip Man practice on both variations so which one is right? Doesnt matter. By the time you get to that level you should already understand that what you practice on the dummy, forms, even chi sao shouldnt be taken as the absolute and variations of the movements may/will often occur.

I went full circle with this thread after researching this subject extensivly. I guess it is a matter of personal preference.
And now my theory...
When the wooden dummies were first created, the type of wood used on the trunks where not as durrable and dummy making tech. was basic. Failed attempts of trying cut the trunk squares even resulted in spliting. As a result, someone, very posibbly Ip Man himself suggested that the left arm be slightly elevated higher than the right. Reason- Most, perhaps 97% of the chinese in the 20's and 30's where right handed and so performing the trademark WC hand gestures where alot more difficult with the left side as oppose to the right. So to aid in strengthing the weaker side of there bodies and techs. (particularly bong sau) the decision was made to raise the left arm higher.

[Phil Redmond]

Hello, I like to keep it simple. I use a tan (or other position) for the upper gate only. I use another position for the middle gate. I use my legs for the lower gate. I've trained it so that it's natural.

You wrote: >>As a result, someone, very posibbly Ip Man himself suggested that the left arm be slightly elevated higher than the right. . . <<

Have you read the post where I say that the plans Yip Man gave William Cheung's older brother (Cheung King Kong) had level arms?
Phil

[Airdrawndagger]

No. I missed that post, but it doesnt suprise me that Ip Man made that recommendation. The wooden dummy has had its own evolution in its development and where in that evolution Ip Man made such a recommendation to William Cheung's brother maybe a better question.

Both dummies variations seem to be both normal and perfectly acceptable amongst the WC community so like I said, it all comes down to personal preference.

I will say however, there is another-more elusive dummy that has struck my ever so growing curiosity. Im at work so I dont have the exact name on me, perhaps you know of it.

The dummy consist of several trunks burried into the ground about the same diameter of a live dummy(perhaps a little smaller) about 4-5 feet high each spaced out about 4 feet from each other. There are about 4-5 rows with about 10 post per row(Going from memory here).
The main purpose is to train footwork and the various WC kicks by stepping/shifting/pivoting through them making contact with each of them with each step that you take. I dont have the backyard for that kind of space plus the homeowners association along with my neighbors, would have a coronary if they saw that....

Anyway ever heard of this dummy?

[Phil Redmond]

If I'm correct you're refering to the geuk (gerk) jong. (I don't use the letter r in my Cantonese Romanization).
Phil

[KPM]

If I'm correct you're refering to the geuk (gerk) jong. (I don't use the letter r in my Cantonese Romanization).
Phil

Hey Phil!

I think you are right, with a minor adjustment. :) I have seen the 3 post version referred to as the "geuk jong", but the mulitple post version that ADD seems to be referring to I have seen called the "plum blossum piles." While both versions can be used for kicking practice, the "plum blossum piles" can also be used for practicing footwork by standing on top and stepping from post to post.

Keith

[AndrewS]

Leung Ting's 'Roots and Branches of Wing Chun' shows a fairly elaborate kicking dummy setup and pattern of application, which involves moving through the posts, combining footwork and kicking, much like Ba Gua's Nine Palace(?) training.

Gary Lam has a small setup at his school, made basically to practice chain kicking in one place. Dunno if he has footwork to drill with this or anything fancy, but from messing around with it a bit, it seems a very useful tool.

I've been itching for one of these setups for years, but space and landscaping constraints have prevented it.

Andrew

[Airdrawndagger]

The Geuk Jong- Footwork Dummy

Usually in groups of five spaced out evenly according to your stepping distance. The height is about the height of your knee perhaps higher depending on what kind of kicks you would like to work. For me I would place them about chest height so 5'(personal preference). You can create as many rows as you like.
I dont think you stand on top of them but rather move through them.

[Phil Redmond]

The Geuk Jong- Footwork Dummy

Usually in groups of five spaced out evenly according to your stepping distance. The height is about the height of your knee perhaps higher depending on what kind of kicks you would like to work. For me I would place them about chest height so 5'(personal preference). You can create as many rows as you like.
I dont think you stand on top of them but rather move through them.People used to fight on the Mui Fa Jong. There is a very short scene in the new Batman movie of the MFJ. If you look at the bottom of the link below you can see an example of the pattern using MFJ.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp
Phil

[sam/B]

Is it possible to make one of these if your handy with the odd plank of wood and coping saw? Basically what I fancied doing was knocking up something very simple and crude possibly using a hard wooden floor plank from the timber yard as the trunk (possibly 2-3 of them screwed/latched together), either set it into concrete if I can't work out a way of making a stand or mounting it to the wall. It's difficult to practice on one evey day (or every week sometimes) down the gym so I fancied something basic that I could use everyday so it stays fresh in your mind in preperation for training on the proper dummy down the gym.

Maybe something a little like this but with a rectangular floor plank instead of the round solid trunk:

http://i24.ebayimg.com/01/i/06/ef/65/c1_1_b.JPG

http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/06/e9/5c/a4_1_b.JPG

Has anyone attempted something like this or is their something on the market that isn't as crude and botched as what i'm suggesting? Hopefully I can make something that I can use the kappo stick on so movements and contact with the dummy are relatively light as you don't need to put in huge amounts of force when using one of those. I don't think their will be any issue with it not being strong enough, the only issue I can see is the affectiveness of a design that doesn't resemble the human body quite as well as the real dummy and getting it all in the right position/height/length etc.

[sam/B]

ahha perfect, found me some instructions:

http://www.wingchunonline.com/Wing_Chun/Wooden_Dummy.html

I've noticed quite a few eBay auctions advertising instructions on how to do this with thick pvc drainage tube? has anyone tried this? I can't visualise how you would mount the arms to a hollow drainage tube unless they fix them to it so that its solid and doesnt shake around in its socket like the wooden dummys?
I'm no sure if i'm going to be able to get hold of proper hardwood in those dimensions so I may have to opt for the pvc tubing.

pvc drainage tubing:
http://i21.ebayimg.com/04/i/05/8f/a5/2c_1.JPG

I've got my base sorted to hold it and the wooden arms I think.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Obviously the pics below are not of a traditional dummy, but it would be much easier & less expensive to build. I can't comment on what it would be like to train on (since I've never seen one except in these photos), but I thought you might like to see it as an alternative if you're planning on building from scratch.

3331

3332

[David Jamieson]

guy, delete your thread. it's just whining.

when you buy anything,common sense dictates caveat emporum.:rolleyes:

[Chief Fox]

Build your own wooden dummy! I did. Click here: http://www.mccarriedesign.com/wooden_dummy/

[CLFLPstudent]

Our school has 2 Ching Jong's from them - really good quality I must say.

If they do have a problem with their lumber then either call their cel phone and cancel or wait it out. Their 'excuse' seems plausible. They seem to be handling it correctly by offering a refund or free stuff to those who wait. I don't know what your problem is with them....


-David

[Chief Fox]

For those of you that don't know, the kung fu school that I attend is my sifu's kitchen. He teaches three other students and I a couple times a month. Twice a week, the four of us get together and review what he showed us. The rest of the time, I'm on my own.

Over the past few months I've been building a wooden dummy for him and I delivered it yesterday before our class. The look on his face was like a little kid at Christmas. He loved it.

[David Jamieson]

you got a picture of it?

[Chief Fox]

No I don't. D@mn! I took pictures of the building process but I forgot to take one of the final dummy. I've attached a pciture of the stand. You can see my dummy in the background. You can also see a very messy garage. :D

Here's a link to my web site. It goes over the whole process of how to build a dummy.
http://www.mccarriedesign.com/wooden_dummy/

[David Jamieson]

the wing chun dummy.

looks good. my friend has one pretty much exactly the same in his apartment, it's home made as well.

so why did you choose the large frame as opposed to the heavy base single post version? was it a matter of what plans you had?

[Chief Fox]

the wing chun dummy.

looks good. my friend has one pretty much exactly the same in his apartment, it's home made as well.

so why did you choose the large frame as opposed to the heavy base single post version? was it a matter of what plans you had?
Well, I sorta made my own plans from pictures I've seen. I've only seen a few with the single post. I've seen one that has a very heavy base and I've seen a few that are actually attached to the ground.

I went with the large frame for a few reasons. 1. I knew I could do it. 2. I knew that it would be stable. I'm not really sure how stable a single post frame would be.

Where have you seen the single post design? I'd like to take a look. Do you have a link or two?

[David Jamieson]

sorry man, no links.

[neilhytholt]

For the single post, you have to attach it to something. Like in my back yard I have a bunch of posts but they're embedded in concrete that was laid for that purpose.

I tried the post-hole concrete thing where you just make a hole, put in the concrete, and then put in the pole, but you know what? If you pound on it enough, it gets loose.

So revision 2.0 was to do the same thing, except with a layer of solid concrete between the posts like a concrete slab ... expensive and subject to some cracking, but extremely solid.

[David Jamieson]

a good base for the single post is two large tires filled with concrete.
you can pop the post out and roll the tires around to move it.

[Chief Fox]

a good base for the single post is two large tires filled with concrete.
you can pop the post out and roll the tires around to move it.
That's not a bad idea. Hmmmmm. My dummy is stuck in my garage. Having a movable post would be nice.


So revision 2.0 was to do the same thing, except with a layer of solid concrete between the posts like a concrete slab ... expensive and subject to some cracking, but extremely solid.
Also an interesting idea.

Thanks for the input guys.

[lhetsler]

Thanks guys ,
I have been in contact with a few people , even found a guy that will custom build you a hand carved hardwood dummy with you school logo for $400

i'm on the hunt for the Koo Sang specs !!!

keep up the suggestions

Hi Ernie, I'm a little new to this forum but could you fill me in on who will build a hand carved dummy for $400? I'm looking for a good dummy and can't really spend a whole lot more for it.

[Ernie]

oh man that was years ago ... i have had a few made and purchased a few from Buick Yip that i really liked .... teak is getting harder to find so good luck !

[lhetsler]

Hey guys, I see nothing has been posted for a while on this thread but I thought I'd ask anyway. I am looking for a dummy and everywhere I search online the traditionally made ones are sky high in price. I thought about a PVC dummy or one that wasn't completely wood but I'd really prefer a solid wood dummy for the sake of tradition as well as density and weight. Would anyone know anyone who could make a good dummy these days (commercial or private) that doesn't cost $1000 bucks. I'm also trying to see if I can acquire some wood and find a carpenter to make it but that is also proving to be difficult. Does anyone have suggestions or comments?

[Lucas]

if i were you i would find the blueprints of a dummy design you like, and contact a local wood worker. the econmy is so bad right now, im sure you could find someone local who can read the blueprints and produce your dummy for you. probably at a decent price. its not a ton of work to get one made really if you have the tools, space, and supplies. that person should also have a contact for purchasing materials as well.

plus you'll be helping out your local economy!

[sanjuro_ronin]

if i were you i would find the blueprints of a dummy design you like, and contact a local wood worker. the econmy is so bad right now, im sure you could find someone local who can read the blueprints and produce your dummy for you. probably at a decent price. its not a ton of work to get one made really if you have the tools, space, and supplies. that person should also have a contact for purchasing materials as well.

plus you'll be helping out your local economy!

Agreed.
Offer to pay in cash and he may do it over the weekend for you and save you even more $$$

[sanjuro_ronin]

Speaking of which, anyone got any plans I can use?
LOL !
For a "JKD" dummy with arms that are NOT offset?

[Lucas]

there should be some plans in this thread. but a lot of those links are old and dead.

i know iron fist (poster here) has one in his sig link for some ideas or a starter place, not sure if its free though:

http://www.wingchundummy.net/

ive found a few blueprints on line for free in the past but were saved on my old comp.

[sanjuro_ronin]

there should be some plans in this thread. but a lot of those links are old and dead.

i know iron fist (poster here) has one in his sig link for some ideas or a starter place, not sure if its free though:

http://www.wingchundummy.net/

ive found a few blueprints on line for free in the past but were saved on my old comp.

Never found a JKD one though...

[David Jamieson]

well lets see now, what is needed.

a trunk of a medium sized tree.

a leg on it.

holes where the arms go and arms.

-|-
|\

done!
:p

[GeneChing]

Well, that's an oversight. It's a bit redundant, but this must be remedied as the search engines might pick up this thread.

You Can Build a Wooden Dummy (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=677)by Brian McCarrie

[David Jamieson]

Well, that's an oversight. It's a bit redundant, but this must be remedied as the search engines might pick up this thread.

You Can Build a Wooden Dummy (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=677)by Brian McCarrie

oooooh and it has downloadable plans!

Leg seems a bit long, but overall, good enough!

heck, a tree and a regular sam sing partner is good enough. :D

[caesjong]

checkout my jong... made a few...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df8JvDG2Ods

[SteveLau]

This model is a very good Wooden Dummy. It is easy to install, and does not occupy much space.


http://www.kafok.com/member/25192/gallery/655141_DK086.JPG

There is also one with the trunk standing on a coil spring. It gives the dummy some resilience that resembles a real person in response to force upon it. But I wonder if is stable without wall mount support.




KC
Hong Kong