Bruce lee foundation

[jkdninja]

Who should be certified under this and why?

Kent

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I just think it's a shame that, in the Foundation's Bruce Lee bio, they still maintain that his fight with Wong Jack Man was over the right to teach Quilo. They do this even though in last months issue of KF magazine, David Chin said that he felt the fight went both ways and that it wasn't about racism at all!! You'd think that Linda Lee and friends would stop making themselves look bad by modifying their account of the whole thing.

Since this new, revamped, "Foundation" is in it's infancy I'm hoping that they change their views on this significant conflict (it was especially significant for Bruce Lee since he completely changed his whole fighting style after fighting Wong).

[jkdninja]

This was not the question posed.

To address your statement- Were you there for the fight? You trust one version and discredit the other version. Each camp has eyewitnesses that were there and back that sides version up. The reason Lee changed was to be more economical in fighting. You waste alot of energy fighting the way he fought. JKD has no wasted motion or wierd stances such as the horse stance that I have seen. The truth is it doesn't matter how close or quick the fight was or why it even happened; Bruce Lee won.

Question when did you start training with Wong? His views may have changed since then.

Kent

[yenhoi]

Linda Lee and her ilk are out to make $$ - what is so hard to understand about that. They are selling Bruce Lee the Name, Image, and Legend. They are not interested in honestly educating anyone, and they dont care if you like it or not.

What does who fought who and won or didnt win for whatever reason have to do with your training? For some weird reason, does the Bruce Lee myth somehow factor in to your training matrix?

wtf?

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[jkdninja]

yenhoi- fighter and i were not talking about training. He did not answer the question just as you have not. He stated his belief and I countered with mine. The so called Lee myth, as you put it, has no bearing on my training nor does the BLEF. So that is wtf.

Siu Lim Fighter- Bruce never was down on wing chun. He improved upon what he knew. The JKD base is wing chun with elements of western boxing and fencing. I even train with the Sil Lim Tao form. Taky never sought the lime light and unless your are deep into this art most people will not no who he is. Ted Wong I do not know that much about.

As far as the incident goes this happened how many years ago? Why is it still being brought up, out into the public, today after the death of Bruce Lee? If your Sifu or anyone else for that matter wanted to address this on a national scale it should have been done prior to "73". Again youe beleif is yours ; mine is mine.

Kent

[yenhoi]

This is the nonsensimicalness I was responding to mostly:

His views haven't changed on whether or not he lost. Sifu Wong is an honest man with integrity. I believe his version of the fight, hands down. He got Bruce Lee's head locked up three times. It would've have been just like him to have let him go every time, rather than give him a finishing blow to the head (and believe me, he could have easily killed Bruce with one such strike). It's my belief that Wong Sifu was just a nicer guy. He originally just wanted to spar with Bruce, but Bruce had ego problems and went a little crazy (as if he was trying to kill Wong). From Wong Jack Man and William Chen's accounts it would seem as though Wong Sifu could've kept fighting. It was Bruce who, by his own account, was "unusually winded".

Perhaps Bruce, who always tried to make himself look good (not just good but "invincible"), realized that it would've seemed like he had the upper hand at the point when HE decided to stop fighting. So they both discussed not mentioning the incident with anyone. Really, why would Bruce be so down on himself and renounce Wing Chun altogether right after this particular fight. And why would he not respond at all to Wong's public challenge after Bruce started propping himself up as the winner. It is widely accepted that Wong held back the whole time. Perhaps it wouldn't have been that way in the rematch. But, since Bruce made no response, we'll never know. It's worth noting that, after Wong's challenge Bruce never publicly mentioned the whole matter again while he was alive.


I would be seriously shocked and amazed if this poster has ever had any contact whatsoever with Bruce Lee. This sounds like the kind of brainwashing-cult-speak-nonsense a Wong Jack Man camper would spew because someone told it to him.

How could anyone except for the very few people directly involved know and say for certain exactly what happened, blow for blow, in any fight that happened some 30+ years ago? AND on top of that, exactly, word for word, what was said before/during/after the fight??

In the real-world outside of martial arts cult-land this is known as "silly-talk."

:eek:

[Siu Lum Fighter]

O.K., let's not get excited. I was merely pointing out what I did not like about what's in BL's bio on the new website for this, "Foundation." Which, as you said, yenhoi, seems to be a way for Linda Lee and friends to make lots of cash. They've always exploited the conflict with Wong Sifu for years and it really ticks me off, that's all.

Once again, I'm wondering why Dan Inosanto isn't involved. I read somewhere that he may have had a falling out with Linda at some point. Whatever the reason, he seems to be keeping his distance from the whole thing. Why?

[Repulsive Monkey]

I'm sorry but the quote i read earlier on saying "it didn't matter how long/quick the fight took, Bruce Lee won" is just arrogant, as most people know by now heavily incorrect.
It is well known now that it was a draw, no one outright won, and that Linda Lee made some ashamedly poor embellishments on the whole incident.
Neither one had an advantage over the other conclusively as William Chen who was a witness there validified.

LInda Lee is an ebmarassement as her blinded (by bucks I dare say!) comments evolved in as many times as she wanted to resale the fight details.

The boigraphic film Little Dragon was always a fun film to watch but 90% fictional.

[yenhoi]

Bruce Lee became a movie star and created a huge meandering political martial arts empire, and he "said" it all originated at that fight. Id say he won the fight also, although Im sure Mr Wong didnt do so badly from it all either.

Why does it matter what happened with Dan and Linda?

"Bruce Lee" is such a small part of the whole "jkd world" nowadays.

If you meet jesus, kill him.

;)

[The Xia]

Wong Jack Man vs. Bruce Lee has been discussed here many times. If you look at William Chen's story, it can match with Wong Jack Man's account but not with Bruce Lee's. Ming Lum also says that the only evidence of combat that Wong Jack Man had the day after the fight was a scratch above the eye. Wong Jack Man says this was the result of Bruce thrusting his fingers at Wong's eyes during a friendly pre-fight gesture. Also, read David Chin's account of the fight. http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=661

Based on the information I've seen, it seems to me that the fight had nothing to do with teaching non-Chinese. Bruce Lee himself was 25% Caucasian. If some of the claims I've come across were true, Yip Man wouldn't have taught him Wing Chun.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I just thought it should be further noted that Wong Jack Man held Bruce Lee in high regard and doesn't blame him for anything. I also have to admit that I wasn't there and everything I say on the matter is either hearsay or influenced by articles and comments people have left on previous posts.

I really don't want to put Bruce down. I actually respect his nack for innovation and his film presence still stands the test of time. It's just regrettable that Linda Lee has to paint Wong Jack Man out to be such a villain, that's all. I maintain that the fight was a draw. Also, I can't deny that Bruce had some skills. He must have if he was able to take on a Grandmaster at his point of developemant . It's too bad they weren't able to have their rematch (since Bruce died 9 years after). It remains a fascinating part of the Bruce Lee legend.

[The Xia]

Yeah, "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" depicts Wong as a real villain. Unfortunately, lots of people believe this depiction. Other then from Linda Lee and that camp, I've heard nothing but good things about Wong Jack Man.
Bruce Lee did have some skills and was a landmark martial arts star, but I'm not a fan of the way he downed traditional martial arts, calling them a "classical mess" and what not.

[yenhoi]

He also fought an imaginary deamon with neon orange nunchaku, wtf??

:eek:

[The Xia]

He also fought an imaginary deamon with neon orange nunchaku, wtf??

:eek:
LOL. I always wondered where the hell they got that idea from. You'd be suprised how many people actually believe that though...

[jkdninja]

Yeah I agree that the movie has a lot of fiction in it; ALOT of fiction. But again everyone (including myself) is taking the side that their teachers/sifu's take. Yes Linda and Shannon are making money from the whole deal. The only concrete thing that we all agree on is that there was a fight. This whole thread is not about the fight but the foundation. To answer a previous post about Dan Insonato; he teaches other arts beyond JKD and this does not sit well with some in the JKD world. Was he asked to be apart of the "new" foundation? I don't know. Maybe he turned them down as did a couple of other OBLS have done.

Fighter- I agree with you that it would have been good to have another fight between the two of them.

Xia- you cannot look at someone and tell if they are 100% this or 25% of that etc... I am 1/4 Native American (Creek and Alabamu nations) yet you can't tell it. As far as the classical mess goes; how many types of karate/TKD are there? Each form says that you have to do it this way and no other way. You bend to the style. Jeet Kune Do bends to you. It is as simple as you can get.

Kent

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Perhaps too simple.

I've always felt that Bruce concentrated a little too much on his techniques being "simple." I think he concentrated a little too much on straightforward, simplistic, boxing. I'm not saying that he didn't have a great knowledge of many arts. I'm merely suggesting that he could've been an even better fighter if he had really mastered just one traditional art all the way through (like Wing Chun for instance). Of course, he would've had to changed his views on TMA in general.

I actually disagree with alot of his technical views on TMA. But that's just me. It would've been interesting to see how these views might have changed throughout the years.

As far as Inosanto's arts, I think Kali or Eskrima offers a great curriculum. I'm actually trying to learn Kali all the way through right now. I feel this was one the more effective arts that Bruce drew from.

[jkdninja]

Have you studied any Jeet Kune Do? I have studied TKD and BJJ in the past but I find that JKD is more effective. It is not simplistic boxing as we do kick, trap and some "grappling". Yes we choose to be straight forward in our fighting, by this I mean the forwardness of an all out attack, we hold nothing back. We hit, kick, whatever to hurt you and therefore not be hurt. If you are talking about a straight line attack we do angle only if we have to. The quickest way to get to you is straight at you.

The foundation is Wing Chun. Lee liked boxing cause of the combinations, hands always in an on guard position as well as getting the whole body into the hit; twisting of the hips. Lee liked fencing as it took a direct approach to the target and your main weapon hand, lead hand, leads the attack. Simple and very effective with no wasted energy or motion.

I too wonder if Lee had been able to continue his studies in Wing Chun would we have JKD today. As far as escrima and kali he did like the styles for the movies. That is straight from an interview with Dan Inosanto himself.

Kent

[Immortal_Dragon]

Well, I dont think its fair that anyone criticizes Linda Lee, Wong Jack Man or anyone that was involved in that fight. Only the people who were there knew what happened and they all have their right to tell what they each witnessed. Naturally, if you have five people watch the same event you are going to have five different versions....that's human nature.

I believe in any fight it's all gonna come down to the fighter himself and who is the stronger one.....not what style they train in. Of course with winning the fight brings the "bragging rights" for that particular style. So in theory every martial arts style that exists today all have their own ideas and who is to say this works or this doesn't.....fact is no one really knows.

The Bruce Lee Foundation

Featured in the September 2006 Black Belt mag it sounds righteous. I do not believe Linda Lee or her daughter are trying to cash in. It's only fair that Linda Lee and her family carry on a legacy that was started by Bruce Lee. I wish some of you would understand this.

[ngokfei]

My simple comment is that BL brought Kung Fu (martial arts) to the public eye through his TV, Written and Movie appearances (such a shame that prejudice kept him out of the true role in "Kung Fu", shame).

Also his effect on the evolution of training in the martial arts. The ideas of trying out new things and styles. Then bringing them back home to improve yourself and your "style/ideas"

He died young, wonder where he would be sitting today and what his views would be as well.

As for the fight. Where was the camer when you needed it. Hey nobody died so there was no winner:rolleyes:

And for me if Mr. Innosanto isn't part of this New Organization, that leaves a big hole. Like the problems found in many organizations, Family Inheritance vs Top Exponents.

the Neon Nunchaku thing probably makes reference to the experminentaton of drugs that many believe BL was doing. (just a rumor but it was an interesting time in the 70's)

on a side note: Hey when are they going to release the restored "Game of Death", including the missing scenes?

eric

[The Xia]

I won't continue on the Lee vs. Wong thing because thats not what this thread is about. :)

Onto the topic at hand....I say that its a big mistake to not include Inosanto. He is one of the staples of the Jeet Kune Do community. Its silly to exclude him because he teaches other arts.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Was Inosanto excluded or did he choose to stay out of it? I remember reading somewhere that in about 1972 or so, Bruce told Inosanto that he didn't want "Jeet Kune Do" being taught anymore, since, Bruce believed that his personal style, or the way that he fought shouldn't be crystalized and formalized in such a way. I think this was probably because Bruce Lee was still learning about certain aspects of the martial arts and he may have even been questioning his own theories. Maybe he had a revelation while he was on one of those hash brownies he was so fond of. No harm in that. :D

The reason I feel it's right to critisize Linda Lee, is because she decided to paint Wong Jack Man out as a villain when her biography came out in the early eighties. Bruce Lee never really mentioned Wong when he was alive and the comments that he made about beating up certain martial artists could've been about any of the many challenge matches he fought on the West Coast. All of this business about Wong being a racist started with her and it was done to paint a rosey picture of Bruce being "the man who brought kung fu to the west." Sure, he did this through his movies, but he was not the first to actually teach it to westerners. As far back as the twenties, even the mighty Kuo Yu Chang had white students.

Sifu Wong actually had a court battle with Linda over this point. In the end they said she could say whatever she wanted since Wong was a "public figure" (this verdict was influenced by a case involving Carol Bernett at the time). This is why Wong Sifu is definitely not very fond of her. As far as his relationship with Bruce, from what I hear it was not so strained. Apparently, Bruce respected Wong's skills enough to request a rematch in ten years. Yet another indication that there was no decisive victory for either opponent. And out of all the witnesses who were there, the only story we get on Bruces side is from Linda, and I really don't think she even knows much of anything concerning the reasons for their fight (or martial arts in general which is why it seems strange that she's looking over the certification of the Foundation's instructors:confused: ) . At least two of the witnesses on Wong's side have spoken up and they, unlike Linda, are both masters of their arts. Their stories also coincide more with Wong's.

[jkdninja]

If the BLEF is being formed to preserve the memory of Bruce Lee then this is great. Unfortunately, I fell, they are going to try and regulate JKD and who can actually say that hey are teaching official JKD. Even with the original students of Bruce Lee you have different opinions as to what is JKD. Ted Wong does not do/teach Sil Lim Tao and Jerry Poteet is into concepts and to be certified by him you can only teach what he wants you to teach or train with. My sifu has sought out and trained with as many OBLS as possible from each of the three schools/periods. We are training in all three periods from JunFan Gung Fu to JunFan JKD. So yes in a way I see it as an attempt to make money by some.

Kent

[Nebuchadnezzar]

...I really don't want to put Bruce down. I actually respect his nack for innovation and his film presence still stands the test of time. It's just regrettable that Linda Lee has to paint Wong Jack Man out to be such a villain, that's all. I maintain that the fight was a draw. Also, I can't deny that Bruce had some skills. He must have if he was able to take on a Grandmaster at his point of developemant ...

At twenty four years old, I don't think that Wong Jack Man was anyone's Sigung. Si Hing or Sifu yes, but not Sigung. Don't give Bruce Lee that much credit.

As it is, he showed no respect for Wong in the subsequent TV interviews after the fight. He didn't mention a name but those who knew it took place knew what he was talking about.