PDA

View Full Version : Bagua Seminar in Los Angeles!



count
06-20-2001, 03:50 PM
http://kabooom.com/drpainter/banner.jpg
Click Link For Details (http://kabooom.com/drpainter/DrinLosAngeles.html)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

E

Waidan
06-20-2001, 07:39 PM
Any idea on the seminar cost? That info wasn't listed. (yeah, I should email the guy...but this is easier ;))

Mojo
06-20-2001, 08:08 PM
Mike Sigman has written that Painter told him that he had made up alot of that system himself.

count
06-20-2001, 08:26 PM
I'm working on that info for you.

Mojo, I doubt it. Not that I doubt another teacher would say something like that but I doubt any one person could make up a system like that. I also doubt, if he had made something up he would tell someone about it. He credits his teacher Li. It is not my system of bagua but I have seen his system and the core principles of bagua that Dr. Painter demonstrates are clear and powerful. His seminars seem to make it easy for even beginners to grasp. I think it would be worth anyones while to attend even if it is not your style.

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

E

count
06-20-2001, 11:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The seminar cost is $175 for both days, $90 for individual days, $200 for both days at the door.
seminar fees must be postmarked by July 8th to get the $175 rate.
[/quote]

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

E

Waidan
06-20-2001, 11:15 PM
I appreciate it, Count. Dr. Painter taught a seminar at our school some years ago, and from what I've heard he shares some great material. Are you planning on attending? Any other SoCal KFO guys going?

count
06-20-2001, 11:22 PM
I will be going to the next one he has planned and possibly getting some hands on with him sooner. Unfortunately or fortunately for me the weekend of july 21-22 is also the weekend Master Tsou is doing the "64 palms of yin style" workshop in San Diego. See our site Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com/) in the calendar section if you are interested in that one.
Ä

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

E

Guandi
06-21-2001, 08:53 AM
I get an http 404 error when clicking on the enter button on entry page from "Chi Kung International". The following page can not be found

http://chikungintl.com/chikunginternational.com/index.html

Guandi

Guandi
06-21-2001, 08:56 AM
>The seminar cost is $175 for both days, $90 for
>individual days, $200 for both days at the door.
>seminar fees must be postmarked by July 8th to
>get the $175 rate.

are these typical prices in the US?

Guandi

count
06-21-2001, 12:44 PM
Sorry,
that page should send you right in anyway. I fixed the link. The cost is somewhat average for that kind of intensives here. Ususally they are 2 full days and lunch each day. You work up a pretty good appatite at them. Jasons is the same, but you can check out the site if you haven't already.


Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

Guandi
06-22-2001, 12:24 AM
thanks for the information, count.

Guandi

wujidude
06-22-2001, 02:11 AM
Mojo:

You gotta remember Mike Sigman made up most of his stuff himself, too :). He's been corrected in his statements by Chen Xiaowang, among others. The thing I will say about Painter is that he's willing to demonstrate his stuff. Sigman will too, but under much more "controlled" circumstances--his control.

Personally, I don't think Painter's historical claims about his art are valid, but he does seem to be able to execute his techniques. A lot of people jump on Painter because of his past background as a stage magician and entertainer, automatically equating that with a penchant for fraud. I also think his habit of making himself a "Captain" in his self-created American Rangers organization, or dressing up in an Israeli-army style uniform simply because one of his students has taught over there, doesn't do much to add to his credibility. Then again, there's an awful lot of us who dress up in silk pyjamas, something that no traditional Chinese martial artist of yore ever wore.

I've never heard a bad word about the quality of Painter's seminars. I'd go myself if I were in Cali then.

TheBigToad
06-25-2001, 12:05 AM
Well, its not like I have to speak for Dr. Painter cause he can easily and happily demonstrate his ability to anyone....all you have to do his have the balls to ask...and that there disqualifies a lot of people.

Dr. Painter was indeed taught by Mr. Li, LongDao(Frank) I have seen the letter given to Shifu Painter written by Mr. Li saying he has indeed learned this system, some of the Chinese characters where very old and all but extremely well versed Chinese scholars could accurately translate them.

His system of Baguazhang is DEEPLY rooted in the core and essential concepts of the YiJing and Daoist cosmology.

He can use just about any weapon and use it as if he was using unarmed techniques. He would regularly and with little effort defeat champion Chinese swordsmen from tournaments all over.

Shifu Painter with Adam Hsu put together almost all the Chinese sparring and forms competition rules and developed a Chinese "soft/safe" sword of fencing, not to mention fencing George Xu with real "slice your ass up and bleed you dry" sharp swords.

Shifu Painter was also a real life bodyguard to many celebrities and the rich social lites.

He does not only have one student in Israel, but does indeed teach members of the Israel army.

Was a professional stunt man and magician which is pretty cool I think.

Shifu Painter set up an institution to teach law enforcement people how to defend themselves cause if you think most cops aren't nothing more then donut stuffed cubs who's training included effective method of detaining and arresting people you need your head examined.

Shifu Painter is a fully licensed Natorpathic/Wholistic Doctor.

Shifu Painter doesn't not demonstrate with "here you do this, I'll do this" nonsense, he say come at me with whatever you want and he'll use the very same technique whether you kick him, grab him, punch him, whatever and put you on your butt as hard or as soft as he wants.

Shifu Painter has said he has looked hard into other methods of Baguazhang and can easily make whatever they do work right in his system of Baguazhang no problem ... hell I do that myself. Baguazhang is a living and adapting system if you don't so that your missing out.

Shifu Painter is about one of the most physical flexible and strong teachers/stylists in this country.

So I've said my piece about Shifu Painter and why I'm a dedicated student of his and a promoter of his methods, don't believe me? Go see him your **** self....what could be more simple? :)

-Kevin

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

Mojo
06-25-2001, 12:26 AM
Kevin
That was an excellent defence of your instructor. Good work.
I was quite suprised when I read what Sigman wrote. Didn't know what to believe.
Thanks to all for the information.

RAF
06-25-2001, 02:08 AM
Dear Count:

The 64 palms of Yin Style, I am assuming is sometime called (this is the toughest part of bagua, the dam(n) translations) call the nei shou zhang or 64 internal palm. That, along with xiao kai men, is so critical as the foundational training in our style.

Not taking away from Dr. Painter's seminar, but the seminar given by Master Tsou would be a real gem for those wishing to get into the basic foundational training. This is the stuff that long term training is made of. Without this, advanced forms mean very little.

The 64 palms, I believe, also contain a number of the 8 mother palms and anyone wishing to see what GM Liu taught as part of his Yin style bagua should not miss this seminar. I am certain it will be a great one!

count
06-25-2001, 03:43 AM
I agree, I have been looking forward to this for months. Jason will explian exactly how the 64 palms works. I worked on this form already and now I think I will be able to really make it work. But beginners would get a great deal form this too. Jason says if you only have one or two and know how to make it work it would be enough.

Still on the road RAF?

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


RAF
06-25-2001, 04:38 AM
Hello Count:

I've been home for about the last 3 weeks or so. Currently teaching summer school from about 5:00 pm to 11:00 pm. This gives me a lot of time to workout in the mornings. A lot of my training schedule involves the weighted exercises of bagua and the nei shou zhang (I'll call 64 moving)on one day and xiao baji/ da qiang on another. Been trying to play around with the bagua sword but the foot and hand movements are pretty rough. I finished the baji sword which we practice on Sundays and taijiquan. Wednesdays, Saturday I go to formal classes. When the semester changes, I'll go a bit differently. We are also getting ready to go to a Baltimore Tournament, July 25, 26 or so.

In between I sneak up to Cleveland for Dian Xin (Dim Sum not Dim Mak, making a bad joke. Dim Sum is actually a lot more fun. We have a thriving Chinese community in Cleveland and I am only 25 miles away). I hope you can make here and we can meet sometime and compare notes. I have a small clip of GM Liu playing the deerhorn knives. We use it on our xiao kai men tape and I think you would like to see it. Its a helluva tease and I cannot get Yang Laoshi to show me the entire footage.

Also, on Master Su's tapes, there is great footage of GM Liu playing, I believe, baji Lei Huan.

Good luck on your seminar, it really sounds fantastic

count
06-25-2001, 04:48 AM
What I would give to see that. I've been working hard on fixing up Ying Shao and I just picked up some deerhorns. Jason says I don't look mean enough. He used a great expression in Chinese I can't remember at the moment but I think it changed in English to "look meaner" He heh heh, I think I know what he meant. Anyway, He is trying to encourage us to come to the tournament in the fall and visit you guys. If I can swing it I definatly will.
;)

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


Guandi
06-25-2001, 12:16 PM
>not to mention fencing George Xu with >real "slice your ass up and bleed you dry" sharp
>swords.

..and what was the outcome?

Guandi

TheBigToad
06-25-2001, 06:49 PM
The 64 palms form to me is just nuts..thats a lot of palm work wouldn't mind learning it but I'd have to put aside some serious time to do so. Funny that between 2 system of Bagua, one I learned and the other I'm learning, the 64 palm form in non existent in each.

My first system concentrated on singular postures to represent the 8 major Gua in animal shapes which had what is called the 8 mother changes which are methods of changing that where common to all the 8 mother shapes and then there was 8 changes solely belonging to the 8 mother shapes individually, no long forms, just changes do over and over and over again.

Much the same with the Jiulong system (Shifu John Painter) which Have Palm(body) shapes which are directly influenced by the 8 major Gua (Heaven, Fire, Lake, etc.) but not animal shapes. Each Palm/Body shape of the Jiulong system has a Yang, Yin and Taiji(equal represented) shape which is expressed through out the entire body. Jiulong system is a system very rooted in the Wuji idea, where the sub-concious picks the energy you will move with and how you will move with it, there are no set forms, and flow in a very natural way from one energy (maybe Thunder) into another energy (maybe Water) which could be considered the palm change.

Now their is something called the double palm change which in the Jiuong system is represented by showing say, Mountain through one arm and Wind in another, combining these both would create a whole new energy, and by combing and moving with all the shapes in different variations you express elements of the YiJing as a total physical practice, also each palm of the Jiulong system has its own personality and feelings they invoke and holding and changing into and between different postures can cause a profund neurological effect, for those of you that have wondered why EVERY shamanic culture has used a method of circle walking to induce altered states of conciousness..I know now why.

So in that why the Jiulong system could indeed have a form of the 64 palm changes, but also remember you could hold thunder's yang shape but fire's YIN shape which would create something totally different from holding thunder's yang and fire yang...

So in essence its like the 8x8=64 with the Yang postures alone and 8x8=64 with the yin postures alone and 64x64 with using and experiencing all of Jiulong possible energy combinations.... which would be 4096 palm energies... yikes.. I might just want to learn the yin 64 palm form..sounds easier....

-Kevin

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

TheBigToad
06-25-2001, 06:50 PM
>not to mention fencing George Xu with >real "slice your ass up and bleed you dry" sharp
>swords.


They both palyed for a while then had tea together.

-Kevin

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

count
06-25-2001, 08:04 PM
Interesting post. What other system of bagua are you talking about which doesn't have the 64 palms? We also play 8 mother palms in Yin style before learning 64 palms. It is the combinations that create 64 palms and theoretically I can understand 4096 different energies from this. Maybe after this workshop with Master Tsou I will. Than think about combining your palms with your opponents palms. YIKES!!! is right. But I have always thought of a double palm change is when the palms are together and change of direction on the circle (as in ape offers the fruit) and a single change is only one palm seperately. So in our hawk for example, which is fire and water combined, when you change direction would you consider that a double palm change because fire changes to water and water changes to fire? Or would you consider it a single change because the high palm switches with the low palm?

BTW, I admire your respect for your teacher and the way you defended him, but I didn't think it was even necessary to reply. People that have felt Dr. Painter energy would never say anything and those who speak with out first hand knowledge are ignorant and to be ignored. That said, how is Dr. Painter teaching you? Does he travel to idaho? Do you think you might get to LA for one of his workshops at Johns school? How about Texas, Do you ever go there?

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


TheBigToad
06-25-2001, 10:06 PM
Wuji.

I its because in the Jiulong system a "palm" is more thought of as an energy or physical representation of an emotion or idea, in this case behind the Gus in the YiJing, so expressing Heaven gua would include how the entire body and how it would move as if it was the Heaven gua it's self.

As I have heard Shifu Painter say and seen Shifu Painter do, he can manifest Heaven energy out his shoulder, or elbows or knees, the actual physical posture is more to help the body visualize and create, as opposed to the posture being the Heaven energy. I have always felt the at first the posture creates the emotion and energy, now I'm feeling the emotion and energy create the posture.

Single and Double palm I don't really know if they actually exist in the Jiulong system, I was more suggesting that it could be called a double palm change because the body is then representing 2 different energies (palm shapes) at the same time, using both hands, but since in the Jiulong system Palm really means "shape of the body" maybe double palm change would be incorrect, since it more then just moving two hands as one.
I have heard that the Jiulong system might have been call "Ba gua Yi Zhang" because there is quite a bit of YiQuan/I-Chuan ideas and practices.

The Bagua I learned before was from my teacher Douglas Wong, I learned Xingyiquan from him too.
It was very informal and mostly I think it was to humor the round eye (me) and be on friendly terms with the neighbors.

I learned mostly by watching and doing but in time I did come to receive somewhat in-depth instruction, parts of it could have easily been left out either because I wasn't taught, or because he was more of a Xingyiquan man and did Bagua very secondary.

Its a relatively simple system, most of the work in spent on holding singular postures and creating intent with them, the changes are simple but have various applications, very direct, a lot like Xingyiquan which could be a reason the Bagua was so stripped down, to fit Shifu Wong's usage's. But it still is Bagua and because of this I havn't yet had it fail me, and it nice because I can look at the Jiulong system and find my style in their as well so nothing feels completely foregin.

As for how Painter teaches me, I haven't yet been able to get him to Idaho.. not that I'm going to be staying long here anyway, I'm here mostly for college and then I'm gone. Mostly I get to as many work shops in the Southern California area as I can, which is where I'm from as it is.

I have not yet been out to Texas, but as my major is in International Business I might in the next year transfer to the University Texas Arlington and then be in regular attendance at his classes and workshops down there.

As for defending him.. I'm more saying that maybe he might be someone worth seeing, he does teach a unique form of Baguazhang and Xingyiquan that has proved to be more then useful and his group of students feel a lot like a family, and since I didn't have much of a family myself it feels nice and I just like to inform others they are welcome to come join or visit too.

The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.

Stranger
06-26-2001, 04:50 AM
That was a very eloquent speach in support of your sifu. Although I have never seen John Painter's kung fu, I have noticed that the people who question it are the ones that have not met him. He has a lot of undeniably legit supporters among traditional sifus, and that speaks more than speculation on the internet.

"Luminous beings are we."

count
06-26-2001, 05:22 AM
As I said before, I have to miss this one but I will definately be at the next. I think in October. Let me know if you are going.Ï

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)


Guandi
06-26-2001, 07:27 PM
>Although I have never seen John Painter's kung
>fu, I have noticed that the people who question
>it are the ones that have not met him.

this seems especially true to members of the shenwu discussion board, who are using every oppotunity to call him a fraud, just because of a picture of his web site or even less.

Guandi

wujidude
06-26-2001, 09:05 PM
That's right, Guandi. They do the same thing to Park Bok Nam. In a civil society, that is called libel and slander--libel because being on a discussion board, it's publication of the slander. Yet if one were to do the same to their teacher, Tim Cartmell, they would first demonstrate their inability to communicate through anything other than profanity and threats, then decry the unfairness of criticizing Mr. Cartmell if one hasn't trained with him. Cartmell himself remains mostly silent, apparently condoning his students' conduct. Recently the shenwu board, for the first time, put up a set of rules to govern use of the discussion board, which included complete abdication of responsibility for what Cartmell's students may say there.

The new shenwu discussion board rules aren't that unreasonable, really. Sounds like Cartmell may have put them up because of concern about possible liability. They read like some lawyer drafted them. Anyways, such rules probably wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if Cartmell's students hadn't been so profane and threatening in the first place. Go to the www.emptyflower.com (http://www.emptyflower.com) board for some decent and civil discussion (mostly limited to xingyi though).

Guandi
06-26-2001, 10:52 PM
Dear Wuji

>They do the same thing to Park Bok Nam.

Yeah, they do this kind of bashing to every teacher that is not Tim Cartmell. Even to some degree to Eric Lo, who is Tim's teacher. Sometimes I have the impression that it has more to do with a cult than a martial art group.

>The new shenwu discussion board rules aren't
>that unreasonable

I have not noticed that there are new rules.

>Go to the www.emptyflower.com (http://www.emptyflower.com) board for some
>decent and civil discussion

Thanks for the suggestion, I am already familiar with this board.

have fun
Guandi

Waidan
07-11-2001, 07:19 PM
*bump* as we approach the seminar date, and a couple questions for Count

I tried both of the contact #'s listed on CKI's page, but I wasn't able to reach anyone for seminar info (answering machine and a couple confused non-english speakers). Is the seminar in San Diego still scheduled? Do you know what time each day it runs? Is there still space?

There's a couple email addresses listed so I'll give those a try if you don't have the info

thx in advance :)

count
07-11-2001, 07:55 PM
You bet, it's still on. As far as I know there is still space since the Taoist Center seems to have plenty. I believe that we will be going from 8 in the morning, all day. I will e-mail specifics as soon as I can.

Count

Kabooom.com (http://kabooom.com)

Chi Kung International (http://chikungintl.com)

Kevin Wallbridge
07-12-2001, 05:00 PM
I've heard critiques of John Painter's lineage claims from reputable people with good skills and clearly reseachable lineages, however, I don't know of any one who says that John Painter is not a skilled internal practitioner and a sincere ambassador for Bagua as an art. I believe the two issues are unrelated and it does no one any good to blur the lines with emotional responses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one thing or another about John Painter or his art, just about what the actual question is. There was a post some time ago on this board where John Painter's lineage was questioned and he posted a response. A search should help any one find it quickly enough. I noticed there that, like the response in this thread, the idea of his lineage was never actually defended, even by himself, instead the issue of saying something about someone you've never met was the tone.

This begs the question, do you have to have met someone to question their sources? Isn't lineage really just a matter of historical record? Certainly the question of internal martial skill is only testable in person, but no one has actually raised doubts about John Painter's skills.

When someone says something to the effect of "he'd have to be a martial genius to make it up," I say why not? Isn't that what so many of our great teachers do? Dong Haichuan was still just a mortal man. Should we waste our time with teachers who can't go beyond the wrote memorization and parroting of the classics to be creative and inspired? If John Painter did create his Jiulong system then I'm more impressed with him, not less. At the same time I'd to see an actual defence of his lineage that didn't suggest that I need to go to Texas to "get my ass wupped."

To put this into a martial or push-hands context, if pressure is received, should we not respond to that actual pressure rather than our own emotional response to that pressure?

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

TheBigToad
07-13-2001, 01:22 AM
I can't find one person that has meet Painter and can honestly say he doesn't have skill. As for where his art came from I guess is open for a a lot debate, But where did his skill? Who taught him? Must have been someone with skill and since nobody of the more well known Bagua teachers have said they taught Shifu Painter.. then it must have been someone people don't know....

Do people need to get their asses whipped? No, Shifu Painter isn't like that, I have no doubt if you really wanted to get bloody he could make it a reality. But he is very much a gentlemen and is skilled enough to give you a hint that testing him fully is a bad idea.

However it just comes to a point that people will knock something over and over without ever really doing anything about it.

All I'm saying is if your going to bad mouth and make personal attacks then you know what, go prove your noise and if suddenly your balls are missing and you just aren't or can't prove your point or defend your bad mouthing then you gotta shut the hell up and let it go. Thats just my thinking, it could easily be flawed. :p

I am the big toad and this is my pond.