Tricks to Stance training

[Wil-Hung]

Are there any philosophies or methods by which one can better tolerate a Horse stance or Twisted horse (unicorn) stance. My foundation is not as strong as it should be, and when I settle in a wave of pain overwhelms me, followed by calm serenity, and just when I feel I'm there, anaother wave of pain rushes in. It's like a pain hurricane!! Some styles have a higher sitting horse stance. At my school with my sifu, you WILL learn to sit low. I just want to be more tolerant or find a way to ignore it, for progressions sake. Thanks.

[street_fighter]

I've got a way. Suck it up! Really, the only way you will be able to sit in ma bu longer is by sitting in ma bu... Its not that painful. Once you start doing it regularly, it gets easier and easier, and you get used to hard work. Only a begginer should be having trouble with this training. Go and train!

[BlueTravesty]

street fighter has taken the correct, and seen its potential as a student; but being leary, requires that the correct go through intense and painful discipline to prove itself worthy of his time.

I know how you feel, W-H. If the pain you feel is mostly in your quadriceps, one way you can mitigate it is to add more squats into your regimen. THis is something that I found helped me to get lower. There was still pain, but not the OHNOMYLEGSAREMELTING! pain. It was a more even sort of pain spread about the legs, since the quads were finally able to do their fair share of the work. Unfortunately, due to a rash of double-shifts and coming in on my days off, I've neglected this part of training, and BOY did I feel the difference... ouch. We've just gotta be tough and stick it out though!

Another thing you can do for the mental side (since it's at least 50% mental) is to find a song that's a little longer than the amount of time your horse stance is. Make sure you know the song backward and forward- lyrics, drum/instrument solos, etc. to where you can pretty much conjure it up in your head at will. When you get settled into your nice, low horse stance, focus on the song, try to HEAR it as if it were really playing. This works better for some people than others. One of the senior students where I take class has said that the song thing doesn't work for him, but meditating does. To each their own, I suppose.

[Oso]

Are there any philosophies or methods by which one can better tolerate a Horse stance or Twisted horse (unicorn) stance. My foundation is not as strong as it should be, and when I settle in a wave of pain overwhelms me, followed by calm serenity,


lol, that's endorphines...


and just when I feel I'm there, anaother wave of pain rushes in. It's like a pain hurricane!! Some styles have a higher sitting horse stance. At my school with my sifu, you WILL learn to sit low. I just want to be more tolerant or find a way to ignore it, for progressions sake. Thanks.


seriously though...figure out a schedule and rate of progression that makes sense to you.

or, just keep sitting till you fall down and then do it again.

[yu shan]

One of my Shifu`s, Art D`Agostino was into these long ma bu sessions. He would sit and read to us, or go into his kitchen and stir fry. If he read, I focused on this interpretation. He always read quality material. And if he was cooking, ahhh, the wonderful aroma from my Shifu`s wok. He also expounded on the following: "to be mind strong" and to also "see thru the pain". I carry this memory of him and will never forget it. I almost forgot, we basically trained outdoors in Florida, mosquito`s were abundant and all over your body, just adding to the fun! And you dare not swat...

A kung fu brother of mine sits in ma bu for 2 hours everyday. He says the first hour is for your kung fu, the second hour is for you, or something to that effect.

Blue, I see you are from my hometown of Brandon. I`ll send you a pm, I come home often maybe we could workout sometime.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i think the best way for me when i was first starting was to do something else while holding the horse stance. i remember when i first held my stance for more than 5 minutes i was doing the dishes. you can also do it while folding clothes, or some other simple chore that doesnt require you to move much. (plus my wife always appreciated my helpfulness) anyway, your attention is somewhere else so you dont notice how much it hurts. the point of horse stance training i think is to learn to do this without actually doing something else. to sublimate the pain. but before you get to that point its nice to a) have practice and b) have the confidence to say to yourself 'hey i held this for 5 minutes or 10 minutes or whatever the other day so this is no big deal.' commercials are good for this too. watch a movie on tv. every 10 minutes or so they show 3 minutes of commercials. 3 minute horse stance isnt hard and really helps build endurance in the beginning. then a 10 minute rest and 3 minutes of stances until the program is over. eventually you can switch it and while you are watching the program hold the stance for 10 minutes and rest for the commercials.
also when you are not doing horse stances and you are just sitting around doing nothing you can do wall sits. they help a lot and are less painful.

[Crushing Fist]

Very good responses...


the pain is like being cold

the more you resist being cold the worse it gets

once you accept the cold, relax into it, you find that it isn't that bad after all.


in this case the 'cold' is a burning pain in your legs

remember to breathe

one thing I do is to count slowly in my head, giving me a point of focus


a way that we trick new students into staying down longer is to have them do punching drills while sitting in the stance

gives them something else to focus on


for extra fun rise up onto the balls of your feet as high as you can while staying low in the stance :)


after that the normal stance won't seem so bad ;)

[yu shan]

Good point Crushing Fist, concentrating on the breath is very important.

[Wil-Hung]

Guys,

I am very grateful for the replies, The counting technique, the cold technique, and the technique of seeking and embracing it may work for me. That embracing technique intrigues me due to the counterintuitive nature of attacking it directly. It equates to me, the theory of closing the distance when engaged in conflict, vs distancing yourself to avoid. That was initially hard to grasp, until I tried it. It is most economical. I waste so much time/energy trying to ignore it or conquer it. Now, can hopefully salvage my sanity during "stance training" night.
I must be a little "twisted", but in some sick, demented way, and as much pain as it causes me, I actually enjoy "sai ping dai ma"!! Yeah, I said it. Wow, That was kind of cathartic.

[dainos]

thats ok to be a little twisted. i enjoy getting beat up. seiping ma is my favorite stance.

do it regularly and you will fine

[monkeyfoot]

heres what helped me

1) Regular training of course

2) do something with your hands eg hook grapple pluck or hold them in a 'chi' position in front of you. It will take your mind away from the pain.

3) ALTER THE WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION ON YOUR FEET. Believe me, by putting more weight on the heels or on the ball of the foot you can relieve the pain.

4) focus on something (eg the lower dantian)

5) abdominal breathing is a must, a regular breathing pattern will give oxygen to the blood.

6) if you believe in chi, then keep the tip of your tongue touching the roof of the mouth, this will allow it to circulate around your body.

7) This is a biggy, DO NOT PULL OUT for a second and then sit back down into the stance.......it just makes it far worse

happy horse training

craig

[BruceSteveRoy]

i never knew why that was why my old sifu had us put our tongues on the roof of our mouth. it just goes to show in spite of all the petty nonsense that this site has on it (like the bickering and challenging) you can still learn very interesting and useful info.

and yeah i didnt even think abou the not rising up and tryin gto go back down thing. it just reminds you of how bad that inital pain was except worse because your legs are tired. whereas they get kinda used to the pain if you just tough it out.

[BlueTravesty]

One of my Shifu`s, Art D`Agostino was into these long ma bu sessions. He would sit and read to us, or go into his kitchen and stir fry. If he read, I focused on this interpretation. He always read quality material. And if he was cooking, ahhh, the wonderful aroma from my Shifu`s wok. He also expounded on the following: "to be mind strong" and to also "see thru the pain". I carry this memory of him and will never forget it. I almost forgot, we basically trained outdoors in Florida, mosquito`s were abundant and all over your body, just adding to the fun! And you dare not swat...

A kung fu brother of mine sits in ma bu for 2 hours everyday. He says the first hour is for your kung fu, the second hour is for you, or something to that effect.

Blue, I see you are from my hometown of Brandon. I`ll send you a pm, I come home often maybe we could workout sometime.

I knew Mr. D'Agostino! I used to work night shifts at the Kash n' Karry on Bloomingdale Ave. He and his wife used to do grocery shopping on my shifts. Talk about a very nice guy. I never trained with him, but my conversations with him were one of the two major catalysts that led me to start CMA. I don't work there anymore, and I haven't seen him, but every once in awhile I see his wife at GNC when I need more B-complex.

The workout thing sounds like a capital idea to me. If you're ever so inclined, drop me a PM.

[Reggie1]

i never knew why that was why my old sifu had us put our tongues on the roof of our mouth. it just goes to show in spite of all the petty nonsense that this site has on it (like the bickering and challenging) you can still learn very interesting and useful info.That's not the only reason. It also keeps you from biting your tongue during fighting.

[BlueTravesty]

While we were doing horse stance tonight, a thought occurred to me. Perhaps another benefit of Horse Stance (besides structure, leg training, endurance) is mental training. Now we all know about the discipline aspect of it, right? Well, something kinda struck me, and though it struck me before I was never able to put it into a viable framework.

Perhaps Horse Stance can be used to train the mind to help perceive time differently. We have a saying at class, I believe one of the blue belts came up with it... "There's no minute longer than a minute in horse stance." Of course, there are drills that are every bit as grueling (to me anyway) or more so; focus punching, squat sidekicks and wall splits come to mind. But in those, you can become occupied with movement. In Horse stance you are stationary. You cannot move, you cannot fall. You can only endure. On and on the seconds go, each one seemingly frozen, going by at a glacial pace.

Now imagine you are in a combat situation. Your pulse races, your body is preparing to fight or flee. Wouldn't it be great to tap into that same state of mind when fighting? Each second, and therefore each action by your opponent going by ever so slowly. With time seemingly slowing, you could recognize your opponents moves and intentions more quickly, and in theory your reactions and exploitation of their openings will be that much sharper.

I'm just a newb, so I might be TOTALLY off. But it's an interesting layer to Ma Bu, I think, and one I'm gonna try to build on when I practice. Thoughts, anyone?

[IronFist]

In his book (Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master), Glenn Morris says you can mess yourself up pretty bad if you do qigong without putting your tongue on the roof of your mouth. He said something bad happened to him, altho I don't remember what.

[The Xia]

Who is Glenn Morris?
I do have to admit, I'm already forming opinions since he calls himself an "American Ninja Master". :rolleyes:

[Blacktiger]

He has wrtten some cool books and has great experience -he died a few months ago.

Horse stance and stances in general:

Apart from just breaking through and pushing yourself out of the comfort zone and into the fire -which you must do - try this....

Meditation will help alot I run an excersie that I got from Dr Morris funnily enough its called the mind scrub.

When doing meditaion practice counting numbers on each breath -one number on the inhale and one number on the exhale breath and so on.

As soon as a thought enters your mind other than that number start again, most people get to 4 or 5 and have to start over.

What you are doing is cleaning you mind of clutter and training it to be clear and focused on one thing only ignoring all thoughts apart from that number.

Once you get some practice in you can transfer this over to situations like stance training.

So when you are holding the stance for your Sifu begin the count as described above - this way you are controlling the thoughts or messages that your body is sending to your brain - like ouch this kills and my legs are on fire, you can turn the volume down on these thoughts with this practice.

If you keep your mind focused on only that number and control the breath (breath nice and deep) in this way a minute or two will fly -dont forget to tip the tongue on the top of the pallet either.

If its a tough stance class sometimes I stay on 1 and 2 just trying to stay on top of the signals my poor legs are trying to send me...Then before you know it you have strong foundation as well as a mind like a steel trap :)

[Wil-Hung]

Meditation will help alot I run an excersie that I got from Dr Morris funnily enough its called the mind scrub.

When doing meditaion practice counting numbers on each breath -one number on the inhale and one number on the exhale breath and so on.

As soon as a thought enters your mind other than that number start again, most people get to 4 or 5 and have to start over.

What you are doing is cleaning you mind of clutter and training it to be clear and focused on one thing only ignoring all thoughts apart from that number.

Once you get some practice in you can transfer this over to situations like stance training.

So when you are holding the stance for your Sifu begin the count as described above - this way you are controlling the thoughts or messages that your body is sending to your brain - like ouch this kills and my legs are on fire, you can turn the volume down on these thoughts with this practice.

If you keep your mind focused on only that number and control the breath (breath nice and deep) in this way a minute or two will fly -dont forget to tip the tongue on the top of the pallet either.

If its a tough stance class sometimes I stay on 1 and 2 just trying to stay on top of the signals my poor legs are trying to send me...Then before you know it you have strong foundation as well as a mind like a steel trap :)


Is this then a form of "Mushin"?

I am reading "Be like Water", currently and they discuss the "Mindless" state of Mushin. I am trying to put that destination on my itenerary.

[Fu-Pow]

What is the point of sitting in ma bu for so long? I'd say if you can hold a solid horse for 5 minutes then you are looking pretty good.

[SevenStar]

What is the point of sitting in ma bu for so long? I'd say if you can hold a solid horse for 5 minutes then you are looking pretty good.

agreed....

[Fu-Pow]

agreed....

Well that's scares me.....;)

[BlueTravesty]

yeah, the requirement for black belt at our school is 5 minutes in a perfect, thighs-paralell, arms-up stance. Some of the higher ranks/degrees have longer stance times. If I can get some more training time in, I might just break 3 minutes...

Sifu once said that Master Lee (Johnny Lee, aka Lee Kwong Ming) requires students interested in representing the Dallas school in Sanshou events to do a 12-minute horse stance, some number of handstand push-ups, one-legged squats and squat sidekicks (i think he said 5 minutes, but I'm not sure... that just seems nuts!)... And then they start working out :eek:

I personally find the squats a lot scarier... horse stance is painful, but squats (and leg-presses) move your muscle through the full range... two different types of resistance, I guess.

[Wil-Hung]

yeah, the requirement for black belt at our school is 5 minutes in a perfect, thighs-paralell, arms-up stance. Some of the degrees have higher ranks have longer stance times. If I can get some more training time in, I might just break 3 minutes...



Wow, lucky you. I had to sit that way (except our arms were in chamber) for five min. and this was the 1st test!! And as an added bonus, some of our si-hings and si-baks, lined up on either side at about the 2 minute and 4 minute marks and tested the structure of our horse stances. A good time was had by all. Trust me, I'm not complaining, I need focus like I need air!!! I just wish I new about this site b4 the test. Thanks to all of you, I'll be ready for the next one.

[Royal Dragon]

Count out loud. The more you feel, the louder you count. Yes, you will be screaming numbers at the top of you lungs, but it really helps!!

Eventually yo will not need to do this as you will find a relaxation to the practice, but if you haven't found that yet, Yell!!!

[BlueTravesty]

My sifu is hardly a chump :cool: Yes, I know I need to train harder, and I have to admit, when I was up to a good, solid 3.5 min, practicing it in the morning made an 8-10 hour day at work seem much less intimidating.

As far as now, yes, I CAN go 3 minutes. Heck I could probably go five, just not with my thighs perfectly parallel, hips pushed back, back arched and arms up. If I cheat my way through it though (which I would be) I'm only cheating myself, and I'm simply not willing to do that. I don't doubt your stance prowess, but I'm getting there myself. Shoot, I'm trying to GET parallel (hip joint issues.) But I go as low as I can.

[Wil-Hung]

my thighs perfectly parallel, hips pushed back, back arched and arms up.

I don't know your style of choice, but in my Hung Ga class, the phrase that reverberates through my head is my sifu yelling "BACK STRAIGHT, BUTT IN!!" When you try this, you feel as though you will fall backward, but trying this continuously will structure you better, and your balance WILL adjust. Probably not on your first several attempts.

Disclaimer: I am a newb, so all of what I just said may be MT air, but it is helping me.

[BlueTravesty]

I don't know your style of choice, but in my Hung Ga class, the phrase that reverberates through my head is my sifu yelling "BACK STRAIGHT, BUTT IN!!" When you try this, you feel as though you will fall backward, but trying this continuously will structure you better, and your balance WILL adjust. Probably not on your first several attempts.

Disclaimer: I am a newb, so all of what I just said may be MT air, but it is helping me.

This makes sense, since Hung Ga and other southern styles require a totally different body structure than the northern styles. Our back is "straight" too, but it's arched backward, so that the shoulders are in line with the hips (if we pushed the hips back and kept the back truly straight, we'd be leaning forward.) Whenever I do horse stance I find my hips rolling in, trying to keep me stable. I always have to fight to keep 'em pushed back. It looks kinda like the horse stance used in Wushu forms, in my opinion (our Empty stance is also similar to the Wushu version, with the knee turned and the inside edge of the foot just barely touching the ground.)

Note: not ALL northern styles do this. According to "The Sword Polisher's Record" by Adam Hsu, most styles don't push the knees out either (this is hard to do with both feet pointing straight ahead... I usually have to let mine angle out a bit in order to stay low) but rather, go at a "natural" angle.

And no, I DO NOT DO WUSHU. (remembers the famous Seinfeld quote "Not that there's anything wrong with that!")

[street_fighter]

Bluetravesty, sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was insulting you... I always forget that northern styles put less emphasis on horse (I do hung ga for the most part) as well. and I didn't mean to call your sifu a chump ^_^. Keep working hard.

[Blacktiger]

Is this then a form of "Mushin"?

I am reading "Be like Water", currently and they discuss the "Mindless" state of Mushin. I am trying to put that destination on my itenerary.


Yeah I guess so...

I dont do loads of meditation by any stretch but as this practice bulids over time and you keep doing it you will be suprised how quiclky you can use it.

People forget that you have to train the mind as well as the body otherwise your body will control you in situations such as stance training :)

There is no secret to this stuff just practice!

[BlueTravesty]

Bluetravesty, sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was insulting you... I always forget that northern styles put less emphasis on horse (I do hung ga for the most part) as well. and I didn't mean to call your sifu a chump ^_^. Keep working hard.

No hard feelings, bro! I knew you didn't mean it like that. We just don't do ma bu a whole lot. We'll drop into it several times during class for training drills, forms, etc. but as for "holding" it, that's a different matter.

[IronWeasel]

Only five minutes for black belt? Thats chump stuff mate. In my old school only the beginers aimed at 5 minutes. I got to 5 minutes (if I remember correctly) about 3 or 4 weeks after I started training. most of the time, people get 2 minutes the first time they try. You should train harder if you haven't even broken 3!

I think you missed the part about 'thighs parallel'. It takes a little while to work up to 3 or 5 minutes in it. Anyone can hold a ma bu for 3 minutes on the first day of training, but only 20 or 30 seconds in thighs parallel if they're lucky.

I haven't heard anyone mention holding the temple sequence for time. That's 14 stances for 30 seconds each(working up to a minute each)...every day. After a few months of that, holding a ma bu for an hour is easy since it is such a relatively high stance (70% body height).


Iron Weasel

[Wil-Hung]

OK guys, I'm back!!! Our school moved from a church to a real kwoon, personal conflicts, work, kidz schedules, wife schedule, fixing up the new school, all kept me from regularly attending class. I went to forms on Monday and stance / drills tonight.

Qigong
2 x 25 tiger pushups- 50 bicycles sit-ups
kim yeung Ma (crane), with Ping choi, gua choi
sai ping dai ma (horse) (2 min), then with ping choi, gua choi
shifting gi ng ma (bow) in a line
du ma (cat), kick down to horse (back and forth)
duk gerk ma (cat w/raised leg) kick down to horse
brief horse, then (back and forth) "twisted horse" (heel flat, knee one inch from floor)
horse (3 min)
slow tiger push-ups at sifu's pace (aauugghhh!!!)
Applications


That's a typical stance night, actually, maybe light, but where I used to die halfway through and rise for a second if I thought sifu wasn't looking, tonight I held ground, did not ever rise, and I counted, emptied my mind, tongue stuck to the roof the whole time.

THANKS to all of you for your suggestions. I know next week will me another Mt Everest, and I may not do as well, but tonight, Damit, I nailed it!!!

[street_fighter]

I think you missed the part about 'thighs parallel'. It takes a little while to work up to 3 or 5 minutes in it. Anyone can hold a ma bu for 3 minutes on the first day of training, but only 20 or 30 seconds in thighs parallel if they're lucky.


No, I didn't. When I hear ma bu I instantly assume its thighs parallel or else, it is specified as a high ma bu. I always work with them parallel. I stand by my post for a southern stylist in particular, since northern guys tend to put less emphasis on it...

Hey, what do you mean by the temple sequence?

[BlueTravesty]

I was wondering about that as well. As in the Shaolin temple? And as for the 14 stances... are those 14 different stances? Or more like holding ma bu for 30 seconds, go up, hold ma bu for 30 seconds, go up, etc?

[IronWeasel]

[QUOTE=street_fighter;700620Hey, what do you mean by the temple sequence?[/QUOTE]

The Temple Sequence is from Choy Li Fut:


1. First stance=horse stance (70 % height)
2. Second stance=Horse with waist turn to left (70%)
3. Third stance= Horse, upper body to the right, l. foot pivot 90 degrees right
( 70%)
4. Left Slide step at thigh's parallel
5. Right Slide step at thigh's parallel
6. Horse stance (70 % height)
7. Left twist stance at thighs parallel
8. Right twist stance at thighs parallel
9. Horse stance (70 % height)
10. Left Cat stance (70%)
11. Right Cat stance (70%)
12. Left Bow and Arrow stance at thighs parallel
13. Right Bow and Arrow stance at thighs parallel
14. Horse stance (70 % height) (optional)

Hold each stance for 15 seconds every day (beginner) and add one second each day until you're up to one minute per stance (intermediate).

[street_fighter]

hmmm. Never heard of that... Is it widely practiced? It reminds me alittle bit of a set I used to practice under one sifu who called it 'Lohan'. But definetly different. Do you just hold the stances? What about the upperbody?

You would think one second a day is a bit slow for progress... I think you might be able to bump it up to like 5-10 seconds every practice until a minute. Just a thought.

[SevenStar]

hmmm. Never heard of that... Is it widely practiced? It reminds me alittle bit of a set I used to practice under one sifu who called it 'Lohan'. But definetly different. Do you just hold the stances? What about the upperbody?

You would think one second a day is a bit slow for progress... I think you might be able to bump it up to like 5-10 seconds every practice until a minute. Just a thought.

considering the nature of most cma training (it takes longer by design) then one second is probably correct, whether you can speed it up or not.

[IronWeasel]

hmmm. Never heard of that... Is it widely practiced? It reminds me alittle bit of a set I used to practice under one sifu who called it 'Lohan'. But definetly different. Do you just hold the stances? What about the upperbody?

You would think one second a day is a bit slow for progress... I think you might be able to bump it up to like 5-10 seconds every practice until a minute. Just a thought.


Holding stances is just for the legs. Fourteen stances at 15 sec each is ONLY 3.5 minutes...but a grueling workout for a beginner. Adding one second to each stance every day is progressing you at a brisk pace. Five seconds per week might be more of an even increase. At longer times (45 seconds) you won't be ready to jump the time up as often, so you'll approach the one minute mark a bit slower.

There is NO rest period in between stances...you hold it for the time, then SNAP into the next stance, and hold IT for time....and so on. EVERY day.

If 15 or 20 seconds burns your legs...that should tell you something.

Once you're comfortable at one minute per stance, you can switch to doing Kao stances (14? stances, ALL at thighs parallel). These were taught by Master Kao dao-shang (http://www.kwanyingdo.com/gaodaosheng.htm).

Just try it...(I double-dog-dare you)...it's ONLY 3.5 minutes!!



IronWeasel

[IronWeasel]

What about the upperbody?

Off topic? I would recommend, Arm Grabs and No Lick Kuen/Iron Thread(tension exercises). And some free weights. HUGE gains in the first six months to a year for beginners. These will work the whole body and are a good supplement to stance training, but not a replacement.


IronWeasel

[Wil-Hung]

Off topic? I would recommend, Arm Grabs and No Lick Kuen/Iron Thread(tension exercises). IronWeasel

Please tell me more about these excercizes, and where I can look them up.

[IronWeasel]

Please tell me more about these excercizes, and where I can look them up.



Locally to me:

Ho Chun
Green Dragon Studios
Kwan Ying Do systems: http://www.kwanyingdo.com/
http://www.hingsingschool.com/
http://www.yuensing.com/


Video online at:
http://www.noweightsworkout.com/

Iron Thread at :
http://www.wle.com

[street_fighter]

You don't have to explain it to me like I'm stupid:rolleyes: . It is similar to a set I used to to do. About the same number of stances (but you add in holding leg out parallel to the ground in awkward possitions, and add tough upper body poses with the stances...). Our beginner class would hold about 30 sec each pose. Then up to a minute minimum for intermediate. It was good for endurance... Upper body was not off topic you see. I was wondering what you did up there (ie. chamber, or stretching stuff like my old set).

and 3.5 minutes in any stance would not effect me, unless I am already bogging;)

[IronWeasel]

You don't have to explain it to me like I'm stupid:rolleyes: . It is similar to a set I used to to do. About the same number of stances (but you add in holding leg out parallel to the ground in awkward possitions, and add tough upper body poses with the stances...). Our beginner class would hold about 30 sec each pose. Then up to a minute minimum for intermediate. It was good for endurance... Upper body was not off topic you see. I was wondering what you did up there (ie. chamber, or stretching stuff like my old set).

and 3.5 minutes in any stance would not effect me, unless I am already bogging;)


I didn't mean to sound like that...I was just trying to be thorough for any readers in the forum who may not have had experience with that kind of stance training.

As for the upper body during stances for time, we held our hands on our hips for temple sequence, and there are punching/blocking positions for Kao stances...but nothing taxing on the arms, really.

[BlueTravesty]

The temple sequence is pretty cool. I came up with a variant that I tried today and it had the desired effect (making my legs hurt like crazy.)

Horse Stance as low as I can (about 90% parallel, I think)-17 seconds

Right Bow Stance, Thigh parallel- 17 seconds

Horse Stance (as above) - 17 seconds

Left Bow Stance, Thigh Parallel- 17 seconds

Repeated 3 times, for a total of 12 stances. Just a little under 3.5 minutes.

I measured the seconds by throwing VERY slow punches (I need to work on my punching form and I LOVE dynamic tension.) I can try adding in some of the harder upper body work that our style has, but I mainly tried this variant since I'm not sure what most of the other stances in the Temple Sequence are. I made sure to keep from coming up when twisting into or out of Horse Stance so that I was down the whole time. Any thoughts?

[IronWeasel]

I measured the seconds by throwing VERY slow punches (I need to work on my punching form and I LOVE dynamic tension.) I can try adding in some of the harder upper body work that our style has, but I mainly tried this variant since I'm not sure what most of the other stances in the Temple Sequence are. I made sure to keep from coming up when twisting into or out of Horse Stance so that I was down the whole time. Any thoughts?



Well Green Dragon is the only source that I know that has a stance only Instructional video. Other Choy li Fut vids may have material that demonstrates the various stances as they may or may not occur in the particular form.


IronWeasel

[One Finger Zen]

When I was first taken to meet my master, Wu Shifu, he first talked to me for a while, I think he must have been trying to get to know me a little before he ordered me and my good gongfu xiongdi, Gwyn, to sit into Mabu.

Well, I can safely say that that day, thats the most horse stance induced pain I've ever felt to date. Even though I'd gotten to 15 minutes horse stance before I'd met him (having previously gone to a crappy commercial 'school' ), my horse stance just managed to get me to 10 minutes that day.

Me and my brother have a little saying too "In front of shifu, Mabu just falls to pieces"- mainly because of the pressure of him watching and the incredibly low stance. He laughs quite a bit when he notices our legs start to shake, he says because hes already been through it, even tougher training, back in Guangdong when he was younger.

Thighs parallel to the floor, fists in, back straight and absolutely no moving at all, not even to wipe our brows :( :p

So after that little milestone in my life, Wu Shifu accepted me as his indoor student. The other 3 indoor students are now grownup and in the chinese armed forces.

From time to time, say every 6 months, just to check that we still practice the stance at home, he'll make sure that have another little test (eg 2nd one was 15 minutes mabu and the 3rd one was 20 minutes etc etc).

As for feeling good in mabu, its totally possible. One time, I was enduring 30 minutes mabu and it was about 25 minutes. I closed my eyes and this weird vision came into my mind, it was like a war torn battle field and this flower popped out of the ground and bloomed :confused: after that, I found myself feeling really happy even though I was covered in sweat. There's a chinese saying that would describe sitting in mabu perfectly- 'Man Tou Da Han' which just means totally covered in sweat (well its good for me anyway).

I like to hear how other people deal with horse stance. Some good stories here, very inspirational.

Peace and Love

OFZ

[Wil-Hung]

I figured out a new technique to take the pain out of training (a lil' bit) let's say your wife, or spouse for those XX chromosome individuals, ****es you off, for any reason, it's a Monday. If you happen to have access to a light, hanging punching bag, instead of "bobbin/weavin' with it on your toes, sit in horse and ping choy it. Knuckles don't like it, slip in a leopard fist (I need major work w/that one-I can't do i whole leopard push up- that's sad) and suddenly you don't even realize you are in horse (90 degree) The 10 lb weight vest also helps. Thank God for Moo Duk.

[Wil-Hung]

In the last couple of weeks, I have been experiencing pain right below my left kneecap. It is not debilitating, but annoying and constant. I have been "jowwing" it every evening. The pain is similar in feeling to shin splints. I'm not sure if my structure is causing this or what the problem is. Its funny that is is only in the left knee. Any advice would be helpful. Has anyone experienced this?

[XiaoJieFu]

Things that helped me out during painful horse stances early on was, as someone already mentioned, doing something with your hands. I'd do all sorts of palm movements, little hook grabs (when nobody was looking of course). Now, I hold a briuck in each hand in front of me, and the arm pain actually decreases the pain in my legs! Strange but true.

[XinKuzi]

Me and my brother have a little saying too "In front of shifu, Mabu just falls to pieces"- mainly because of the pressure of him watching and the incredibly low stance. He laughs quite a bit when he notices our legs start to shake, he says because hes already been through it, even tougher training, back in Guangdong when he was younger.


I recently went to my first tournament and did much preparing in class, including in front of my Sifu. He knows if I'm short-cutting a move from across the room, and he can hear if my stances and roots are done right...so when he's got all his attention on me, I have to try extra hard to find that peaceful place in my mind.

He also trained much harder and longer back in the day...more added pressure when you just want to make Sifu proud!

[stainlesschi]

i used to do the horse stance while punching,,,illhave to start it again even though it aint much part of my wing chun now

[Pork Chop]

In the last couple of weeks, I have been experiencing pain right below my left kneecap. It is not debilitating, but annoying and constant. I have been "jowwing" it every evening. The pain is similar in feeling to shin splints. I'm not sure if my structure is causing this or what the problem is. Its funny that is is only in the left knee. Any advice would be helpful. Has anyone experienced this?

Yeah, it's tendonitis.

It was the bane of my existence back when i did kung fu full time and probably the biggest reason I'll never go back to training that way full time.

Glucosamine can help- i like those joint juice cans from sams.

i can honestly say, after a couple years of experimentation, that horse stance was counter-productive for me when I was doing sanshou.

I consider stance training the most overrated practise in the martial arts.
Most times those beautiful, low stances are ridiculously offbalanced and just plain harmful for your body- knees aren't made to take that kind of stress.

Shorter people tend to be able to skate much easier on stances than people with long legs. If you've got short, stubby legs you're going to look a lot lower than the guy with long legs eventhough the angle of the bend in your knee will probably be worse. The only tall people with great stances are usually paper thin.

Balance should be stressed more than depth, but depth looks prettier. Stance transitions have more functional carry-over than static stances.

The sad thing is that I love hung gar, but I'll never be able to finish learning it because it's just too much for my knees.

EDIT: I box out of a low crouch, so go figure...

[dougadam]

Focus on your chi coming out thru the top of your head :)