Serious Question: Student Medical Background

[Oso]

I have this new person in class. They seem to have some sort of processing issue.
On top of that, I really have to work to keep them from trying to throw everything full speed and, to judge by the facial expression, with a fair amount of...something...anger maybe. Not sure. They have also zoned out on me a couple of times to the point where I'm having to almost yell to bring their attention back to me.

Anyone have any experience requesting background medical info on students?

This person is also a minor.

Obviously, I've got safety issues in mind.

FTR, I do have someone researching my legal rights to request background info in this state.

One cool sorta anecdote with this person: I was having them do the first movements in our Ba Shi (ma bu with a twist of the waist returning to the front with a gua and straight punch) and they were not punching even remotely right in front of them. So, I stepped into ma bu in front of them to give them a target and said 'punch right AT my chest'.... next thing I know I'm standing there with this persons fist caught in my palm...full on chop socky style :D talk about luck o' the irish. was amusing to me at the time at any rate and seemed to make them take a little more notice of what was going on at the time.

[BruceSteveRoy]

if its a minor the easiest way around it is to get the parents to give you whatever information you need. just present it to them and say its at their discrestion to reveal anything that might be applicable and tell them it will help you in steering him in a direction that he can better learn to control his impulses. or something. its very unlikely that you will be able to get medical info because of HIPAA. which is a federal law protecting the confidentiality of patients. however, as a minor it can only be given via his legal gaudrian. if this student is a ward of the state you are not likely to get any info. good luck.
if you want to read more about HIPAA (though i cant imagine why you would)

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/

[Ben Gash]

All of my students have to fill in a medical questionnaire when they sign up.

[BruceSteveRoy]

you can ask for the information but you can't get an actual medical record unless you are treating the student as a health care provider (unless the guardian consents). the medical questionaire you have them fill out in know way represent a medical record. if so you would have to make sure that all of the medical questionaires they fill out are locked in a secure file and that you can guraentee the confidentiality of that information as per federal law.

[Ben Gash]

A) I'm not in the US, so federal law doesn't really effect me :rolleyes:
B) I am however in the UK, where all information I collect on my students is subject to the Data Protection Act anyway.
C) If a student has lied to you on their medical questionnaire it removes liability from you.
A martial arts teacher shouldn't have access to your official medical history, but you should disclose the relevant information.
There is no way on earth that Oso is going to get his hands on this kid's medical record, I got the impression that he was asking what the best way to initiate a discussion to ask for their history. Ask everyone at the start, and it's very easy.

[David Jamieson]

Hey, for all the ones you get taht are not a problem, you'll get one of these guys on your doorstep eventually.

Barring the kid isn't mentally impeded, this is your chance to learn to teach a difficult student.

Make a project of it and it will improve his life and your teaching skills.

Many people dread getting this student. Many just abandon them, I've seen that before and I can understand it, it's frustrating and time consuming to deal with such a person.

I would suggest that if you are not going to commit to a plan on how to help this guy through his training with you, then you should let him go now so as to not waste anyones time any further.

[neilhytholt]

Oso,

Seriously, it's kindof surprising you only have one. My best friend's kid was diagnosed with mild autism / ADD and exhibits a lot of the behavior you are talking about, not listening, zoning out, running away sometimes to a corner when given criticism, lashing out in violent episodes for no apparent reason.

They put him into karate last year, and it's actually helped a lot with his concentration and he doesn't lash out randomly anymore.

I'm probably not the best person to give advice on how to handle it, but there's a lot of kids with this type of behavior now.

[cjurakpt]

hey Oso,

funny, what neilhytholy just said was exactly what I was gonna tell you - I do PT with an ever growing number of kids with ADD/ADHD / autism spectrum disorder / Asperger's syndrom / sensory processing disorders etc. - there is a very good chance that this guy falls somewhere under one of those headings, either diagnostically or even sub-clinically - there's also a good chance he's at your school because someone, a family friend, teacher, even a therapist recommended MA, because that's something that anecdotally and research-wise has been shown to have very positive outcomes on behavioral issues

I would talk to the parents, and expresss your concerns purely as you have them: overall, you are concerned about safety - his, yours, other students: if you explain evenly that his behavior seems to be putting him / others at risk for some sort of injury, and that it is your desire to help him so that won't happen, I can't imagine the parents wouldn't be accommodating if there were some sort of clinical issues present (FYI - when I make a referral for a student to a MA class, I always tell the parents that the instructor can speak to me at any time, so if the kid is getting some sort of treatment, that can be very heloful)

good luck

[neilhytholt]

Ausperger is I think what they said he has.

Honestly, I don't think the kid has ADD/Autism. The lashing out appears to be because when he was younger his dad was gone a lot, he would stay away in a different city during the week and come home on the weekends, and whenever his dad would come back, his dad would wrestle and play fight with him.

Basically he had no idea how to be a dad. Plus the strain on the relationship of him being gone a lot seemed to rub off on the child.

Then, the kid would run away when he got embarassed. He would put his hands in this particular way around his face.

So I was watching this going, "Where have I seen this before?" TELETUBBIES. There's this Teletubby character that behaves exactly like that. He used to watch Teletubbies all the time. I think he picked this up from watching Teletubbies.

So really I think this is just a poor kid in a bad situation, and now they are drugging him up. In fact, they have him on so many drugs he can't sleep so they have to give him another drug that puts him out all night. It's really a shame.

[Oso]

we lost power on campus today so haven't been able to get online till now.




from the top down:

I know I can't get medical records...don't want 'em. I just want a heads up on what issues there might be. So, yea, I was wondering how other people approached this.

My standard release states that it's a very physical activity and they should 'consult a physician' before beginning. I'll think about a medical questionaire but would probably need a lawyer to cover my ass on that.

DJ: I haven't turned a student away in over 9 years of teaching. I'm concerned about 2 things:

1-safety for all involved

2- it's a 'class'. All students have to be able to function in a class environment where they will have to a)work on their own at times b) work one on one with other students and instructors and c) work in groups with others.

While I certainly enjoy teaching people who 'get it' easily, I've always been a 'champion' if you will for the people that have a harder time getting physical stuff because it is more rewarding for them and you when they succeed.

I do have other people who display traits of ADD. Adults and children both. I've also worked with stroke victims, very ADD kids, and assorted other folks who weren't naturally talented.

CJ: one of my assistant instructors has made a career of homeschooling Autistic kids, both full on and Aspurgers. She says he's definitely displaying 5 out of 10 or something like that. lol, he almost cold ****ed her too.

I think his dad will be ok with me bringing it up. He's been very sincere about wanting to get his kid involved and I'm working with them financially.

Thanks.

[neilhytholt]

Most kids with Autism that I've known have a problem, which is adults don't know how to deal with them.

If you listen to them, rather than dictate to them and judge them, you might find that they open up to you. A lot of them are just wary of adults and don't like adults talking at them all the time.

You probably won't be able to do much of that as a teacher or figure of authority, though, especially in a public environment.

[cjurakpt]

Most kids with Autism that I've known have a problem, which is adults don't know how to deal with them.

If you listen to them, rather than dictate to them and judge them, you might find that they open up to you. A lot of them are just wary of adults and don't like adults talking at them all the time.

You probably won't be able to do much of that as a teacher or figure of authority, though, especially in a public environment.

that may be true for a certain range of the spectrum, especially the "higher" functioning ones, those with Asperger's and the like; however, there is an entire end of the spectrum where your dealing with kids who not only have all the social relationship issues, but also significant behavioral issues, speech/language delays and a whole host of sensory inegration deficits that make them almost unmanageable, largely because their internal abiity to self modulate is pretty much non-existent; you can "listen" to them all day long, and it ain't gonna do much of anything

Oso - one of my old training brothers has had a lot of succes with a similar sounding kid using a variety of qigong meditations/visualizations, along with some neurolinguistic prgraming (cognitive behav. stuff, basically); also, a lot of autistic spectrum kids have a whole panel of sensory processing disorders, which typically result from hypo/hyperarousal of the verstibular, proprioceptive, tactile, auditory and visual systems - a lot of the stuff intrinsic to MA training goes a long way towards helping these guys inprove body awareness, resolve gravitational insecurity, etc., which overall impacts on the other autistic stuff (or ADD, OCD, etc.), so it's great that you have a chance to work with some of them, 'cause it can be a great help

[Oso]

CJ: tonight was a test again...I'm more than willing to work with challenged students in a classroom setting or one one one. But, this person is off the charts I think.

I had one of my seniors working with him and two other newbies and I looked over and was honestly worried he was getting ready to unload and had to hurry over to make sure I was close enough to suppress him if he did. I let my senior handle it and she did but...I was way worried.

I definitely need a one on one with the parent before I totally accept this person as a student...I'm just not sure they don't need some attention from a medical professional...and they sure don't need a structured method of destruction.

[neilhytholt]

that may be true for a certain range of the spectrum, especially the "higher" functioning ones, those with Asperger's and the like; however, there is an entire end of the spectrum where your dealing with kids who not only have all the social relationship issues, but also significant behavioral issues, speech/language delays and a whole host of sensory inegration deficits that make them almost unmanageable, largely because their internal abiity to self modulate is pretty much non-existent; you can "listen" to them all day long, and it ain't gonna do much of anything


Guess the point here is that it doesn't seem like there are necessarily more kids with autism / ADD, but that there are more disfunctional kids due to their parents not knowing how to parent, and the kids having too much T.V., videogames, etc.

Like my friends kid, it's obvous he doesn't have any autism or ADD. He's got extremely clueless parents and over-zealous psychologists.

[cjurakpt]

Guess the point here is that it doesn't seem like there are necessarily more kids with autism / ADD, but that there are more disfunctional kids due to their parents not knowing how to parent, and the kids having too much T.V., videogames, etc.

Like my friends kid, it's obvous he doesn't have any autism or ADD. He's got extremely clueless parents and over-zealous psychologists.

I think that you are absolutely correct on that; especially the psychologist part - I'm sure you are aware of the degree of medicating that goes on (recent cover page article in NY Times was about the number of kids that take meds at sleep-away camp and that there is at least one company that specifically coordinates distribution of meds to camp nurses!); TV, I agree is a big issue - as is lack of physical exercise, poor diet, poor social relational ability, and a big one - overscheduling: remember when we were kids we used to actually have something called "free time"? pretty much gone...

BTW, statistically, recently released stats on autism went from like 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 150 - combination of more awareness, more inclusion in diagnostic criteria, and, yes, higher incidence in general...no one seems to know the root (2 recent large-scale studies in Japan and Canada have seemingly debunkd the vaccination / preservative theory)

[Oso]

entropy...each copy of us is becoming slightly less ordered with each iteration.

[cjurakpt]

entropy...each copy of us is becoming slightly less ordered with each iteration.

actually, I agree - case in point, with certain religious populations that like to swim in the shallow end of the gene pool, you see a lot more of this sort of thing

I also think that having been bathed in ever increasing background EM fields for about a hundred years now, we are maybe starting to see some feeback...

[neilhytholt]

actually, I agree - case in point, with certain religious populations that like to swim in the shallow end of the gene pool, you see a lot more of this sort of thing

I also think that having been bathed in ever increasing background EM fields for about a hundred years now, we are maybe starting to see some feeback...

Well there aren't really good selective pressures for evolution in humans right now. There's very little to keep non-fit individuals from replicating.

Plus, with fertility technology many people who really shouldn't be reproducing are, and a lot of women much later in life, and if they can't find a good partner they can always go to a fertility clinic and get somebody's seed.

So when you add all that in, plus environmental chemicals, plus food chemicals, plus kids being sat in front of a box for stimulus rather than having normal interactions, plus clueless parents with no idea how to parent ...

It's kindof surprising problems aren't worse than they are.

[Oso]

lol, i've been saying that for a while now too.

i think the second funniest thing in the world is that people today think that they are 'it'. that we're not continuing to evolve and that the different factors we have introduced to the world through industry and technology aren't changing our personal biology (hmm, not sure that's the right way to express what I'm thinking)

[The Xia]

You seem to put up with some of the most difficult things a martial arts teacher can encounter. Troubled students...and far worse, hippies!

[The Xia]

I know that traditional kwoons can and will turn away students without any reprucussions. However, a commercial school is a different story. I know commercial schools are often reluctant to turn away students because of money. But what is the legality of turning away students?

[Oso]

it is a difficult question: essentially, in a commercial pay school, students are customers.

however, I think you stand on the ground that things are a little different due to the nature of what you are teaching and that there are different rules based on safety that will get you expelled with no refund.

however, if I feel I need a student to leave, I'll gladly refund them a prorated amount of their tuition and show them the door.