Do you believe "Chi" exist? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

The Willow Sword

08-04-2006, 09:46 AM

Of course i Believe in "Chi". But that is what the chinese call it. The japanese call it "Ki" the yogis call it something different( i forgot what they call it:o ). It all basically explains the electro chemical energy process in the body which regulates our temperature and that can also stimulate t-cell growth and that can also be manipulated by the mind to stimulate within us a sense of well being and positivity.
Plainly stated "CHI" is the Energy of the living being. It is also the energy of the universe(kinda new agey way to describe it but essentially this is a FACT)

Now for me the debate comes in to play as to whether or not this energy in the body can be manipulated so much as to make one BE stronger than what he/she is truly capable of being. Or does this energy when manipulated in the body have the means to reverse our aging and make us immortal? Does this energy in the body have the means when manipulated to stave off infection and eliminate sickness?

One thing is for sure and this is what I have experienced first hand, is that by being able to manipulate the energy processes in the body with your mind one can "feel" and "be" relaxed and can also "feel" a sense of wellness. of course i speak of meditation. it is as far as i have been able to go with the chi process in my body. I only look younger than i really am because i eat right and drink green tea like it is going out of style;)

Its a complex thing "chi". :D

TWS

Fu-Pow

08-04-2006, 10:27 AM

If you can define Chi I will tell you if I believe in it.

If you want to define it as a "vital energy" outside the scope of accepted scientifically accepted forces, then I say no. There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of a mysterious "vital energy" in life forms.

Is the body "electric", yes. Is this the same as "Chi"....that's highly debatable.

Golden Arms

08-04-2006, 10:52 AM

There you go Fu-Pow, read that and tell me what you think?

http://www.hkhunggar.com/040904%20energy.pdf

The Xia

08-04-2006, 11:22 AM

the yogis call it something different( i forgot what they call it:o ).
Yogis call it Prana. :)

mantis108

08-04-2006, 11:34 AM

Voted yes!

Well, there is a scientific model of Qi (Chi) that is based on Chinese worldview where time is a component of an event along the same line as theory of relativity as oppose to classical physics where time is used as a ruler. So the "scientific model" of Qi, which btw is applied in Chinese medicine as well as in Kung Fu, is IMHO explicable with Quantum physics, which is relatively new (pun intended). It would be much more difficult to explain Qi with the mindset of classical physics.

The language of Qi might be ancient and indecipherable for most but it doesn't mean that it is some hocus pocus (well, the die hard religious people might want you to think so).

Mantis108

Fu-Pow

08-04-2006, 12:10 PM

There you go Fu-Pow, read that and tell me what you think?

http://www.hkhunggar.com/040904%20energy.pdf

It doesn't open for me.

Voted yes!

Well, there is a scientific model of Qi (Chi) that is based on Chinese worldview where time is a component of an event along the same line as theory of relativity as oppose to classical physics where time is used as a ruler. So the "scientific model" of Qi, which btw is applied in Chinese medicine as well as in Kung Fu, is IMHO explicable with Quantum physics, which is relatively new (pun intended). It would be much more difficult to explain Qi with the mindset of classical physics.

There are very few people in the world that understand Quantum physics well enough to be able to invoke it in defense of pseudo-mystical concepts like Chi.

The language of Qi might be ancient and indecipherable for most but it doesn't mean that it is some hocus pocus (well, the die hard religious people might want you to think so).

Mantis108

Like I said, its all how you define it.

If you want to define it as a "vital energy" then it should be rejected, "vitalism" is a dead concept. Science has been unable to detect this mysterious "vital energy." Maybe chi is out of the realm of science but if so then it becomes as debatable as religion, politics, etc. We have no way to take personal biases out of the perception and analysis and therefore, we can go on and on.

If you want to define Chi as something like the wholistic functioning of the body or as a concert of physiological activities (ie blood flow, electric fields, etc.) now we're in the realm of science and these types of things can be quantified, measured and possibly reproduced.

Remember that when the concept of chi was formulated the Chinese had not derived a clear concept of science as we know it in the west. Therfore, you find that while there is some empirical evidence to back up some of these concepts there was not a clear scientific method to accept or reject them. Therefore, what you find in Chinese theories about the human body is some wisdom and some subjective bull$hit.Its the job of us moderns to weed out the true from the false.

There are good things about Chinese medicine in that they treat patients in a more "wholistic" manner, not seeing a clear separation between mind and body, subject and object. However, we need to remain as objective as possible in examining the evidence for some of these theories.

The Willow Sword

08-04-2006, 02:24 PM

Thanks "The Xia" for reminding me. You know i WAS going to say "MANA" but then i would have revealed myself as a War Craft III Nerd:o .................................................. ........................fuk i just did:eek:

:p TWS

mantis108

08-04-2006, 03:08 PM

There are very few people in the world that understand Quantum physics well enough to be able to invoke it in defense of pseudo-mystical concepts like Chi.

That perhaps is a good thing. The spreading of Quantum physics or high energy physics may further the uncertainty of balance of political powers these days. So if people feel that it's hocus pocus, well by all means (at least the politicians would like you to think that way). :cool:

Like I said, its all how you define it.

If you want to define it as a "vital energy" then it should be rejected, "vitalism" is a dead concept. Science has been unable to detect this mysterious "vital energy." Maybe chi is out of the realm of science but if so then it becomes as debatable as religion, politics, etc. We have no way to take personal biases out of the perception and analysis and therefore, we can go on and on.

Well, vital energy is a tricky term. In some ways, it's like telling people that there is such thing as a "soul". Wether you believe in soul or vital energy, well that's a personal journey. It's no point for anyone to tell you whether it exists or not. Personally, a body is like any matter that is energy that is runing out of energy. It's all a matter of time.

If you want to define Chi as something like the wholistic functioning of the body or as a concert of physiological activities (ie blood flow, electric fields, etc.) now we're in the realm of science and these types of things can be quantified, measured and possibly reproduced.

We weren't able to see gravity and didn't "realize" its existence. We didn't "know" there are particles smaller than the atom. We weren't able to measure or harness the energy exist within the atom. Now we can. It's all a matter of time. Religiously holding on to "scientific dogma" is just as bad as those who have blind faith in Qi without having practical emperical understanding and knowledge of it.

Remember that when the concept of chi was formulated the Chinese had not derived a clear concept of science as we know it in the west.

Actually, similar to the west, political climate through out the ages had prevented pragmatic knowledge of the science of Qi to surface in China. The clear concept and scientific model does exist but is muffled by confucian scholars who have more interest in philosophy and reasoning then science. So... and of course today, the education standard in Chinese is quite low. Most people can't read and write good modern Chinese article anymore let alone understanding ancient writings.

Therfore, you find that while there is some empirical evidence to back up some of these concepts there was not a clear scientific method to accept or reject them. Therefore, what you find in Chinese theories about the human body is some wisdom and some subjective bull$hit.Its the job of us moderns to weed out the true from the false.

So you are saying that the volumes of Chinese medical books (written about 2000 years ago) and case studies are just BS (Are Chinese just that longwinded)? Healing among the Chinese as a people with an impressive 1.3 billion population is just a fluke? There is no science, it's all plain luck that we didn't get "wipe out" by evolution? Don't forget Chinese are the first to found out the use of magnetic field and applied it in warfare (now arguable warfare is an art). That's luck too?

There are good things about Chinese medicine in that they treat patients in a more "wholistic" manner, not seeing a clear separation between mind and body, subject and object. However, we need to remain as objective as possible in examining the evidence for some of these theories.

Being objective is the key, my friend. There are more to it than hardline "scientific" stance which as we speak is getting out dated. Just beware that pride can blindside anyone just as faith can. All I am saying is keep an open mind. There are more to it than we are lead to believe as common folks.

Regards

Mantis108

Fu-Pow

08-04-2006, 03:41 PM

That perhaps is a good thing. The spreading of Quantum physics or high energy physics may further the uncertainty of balance of political powers these days. So if people feel that it's hocus pocus, well by all means (at least the politicians would like you to think that way). :cool:

You're saying that quantum mechanics is influencing politics....how?

Well, vital energy is a tricky term. In some ways, it's like telling people that there is such thing as a "soul". Wether you believe in soul or vital energy, well that's a personal journey. It's no point for anyone to tell you whether it exists or not. Personally, a body is like any matter that is energy that is runing out of energy. It's all a matter of time.

My point is that if you want to talk about chi as a measurable quantity then we can talk about it in a scientific sense using modern scientific language. If you want to talk about as a "soul" or mystical force outside of the recognized body of science then it is debatable....just like religion, or politics.

We weren't able to see gravity and didn't "realize" its existence. We didn't "know" there are particles smaller than the atom. We weren't able to measure or harness the energy exist within the atom. Now we can. It's all a matter of time. Religiously holding on to "scientific dogma" is just as bad as those who have blind faith in Qi without having practical emperical understanding and knowledge of it.

That's fine, if chi is something that exists outside of the accepted scientific literature of known energies then perhaps more research will uncover it. However, my problem is when people invoke scientific theories to support something that exists outside scientific knowledge. The problem is thus...if you want your theory to have scientific credibility then you have to play by the rules of the scientific method.

So you are saying that the volumes of Chinese medical books (written about 2000 years ago) and case studies are just BS (Are Chinese just that longwinded)? Healing among the Chinese as a people with an impressive 1.3 billion population is just a fluke?

No, I didn't say that. I said that there is plenty of empirical evidence (ie case studies) out there to back up some of the chinese medical theories. However, the Chinese did not have a fully developed theoretical-empirical scientific method .

Therefore, they didn't have a very strong way to figure out causation. A lot of it came down to personal opinion or speculation or semi-mystical explanation. Sometimes the opinion fit the data, sometimes it didn't but there was not a systematic way to go back and figure out if the theory fit the data. So what you have is a bunch of Chinese doctors doing the same thing but for different reasons.

There is no science, it's all plain luck that we didn't get "wipe out" by evolution? Don't forget Chinese are the first to found out the use of magnetic field and applied it in warfare (now arguable warfare is an art). That's luck too?

At one time the Asian and Middle Eastern civilizations were way more devloped in their thinking than Europe. For some reason, which is a whole other topic, the West pulled ahead technologically. A big part of this was the scientific method that developed in the West with it root in antiquity and which resurfaced again in Renaissance Europe.

Now the rest of the world is either getting into the game or being left behind. Asian countries are pouring huge amounts of money into scientific exploits because the method works.

Being objective is the key, my friend. There are more to it than hardline "scientific" stance which as we speak is getting out dated. Just beware that pride can blindside anyone just as faith can. All I am saying is keep an open mind. There are more to it than we are lead to believe as common folks.

Regards

Mantis108

I agree. There is lots that science can't explain. However, don't invoke things like quantum mechanics to prop up your own subjective interpretations of things. If you want to believe in chi more power to you. If it is your own subjective interpretation of events in your own body then who am I to tell you you are wrong? Just don't expect that people are going to take these things seriously in an objective way if we can't taste it, touch it, smell it, hear it or feel it (or by some extension of the senses.)

PangQuan

08-04-2006, 04:05 PM

everyone direct thier deadly qi blasts at flying monkey

PangQuan

08-04-2006, 04:06 PM

there are over 90 different representations of "Qi" from all different cultures, even ancient westerners had mana....

monkeyfoot

08-04-2006, 04:31 PM

this takes me back to debating religion with so-called 'scientists'.....

its such a frustrating experience that already I have lost the will to carry on my post as intended.

craig

The Xia

08-04-2006, 04:48 PM

Mana isn't "ancient Western", it is Oceanic. Mana is defined as an innate quality that demands reverance for people or things that have it. For example, a community elder may be said to have Mana. In Melanesian cultures Mana refers to luck. Somehow, Mana made it's way into fantasy writing and games. However, the fantasy concept of Mana doesn't have any resemblance to the original.

neilhytholt

08-04-2006, 04:58 PM

this takes me back to debating religion with so-called 'scientists'.....

its such a frustrating experience that already I have lost the will to carry on my post as intended.

craig

My smart grandparents used to have a rule. They used to tell us, "Never discuss politics or religion."

After some consideration, there are a few things which need to be added to that rule, which is, "Never discuss anything that someone else feels strongly about."

I add to that list martial arts, stock market, housing, sports, science, raising kids, women, men ...

SPJ

08-04-2006, 07:53 PM

Do you believe in "Chi"? If yes, what is it? And why do you believe in it?
Qi is used to express the essence or essential of everything.

It can be energy, air, oxygen, ATP, thermo, electric, kinetics etc etc.

We breathe. with movement or withou movement, we breathe.

IF we stop breathing, death is ensuing.

Qi flows among things in the universe.

Qi flows in our bodies.

IF Qi stops flowing, or stagnant, illness, pain, etc induced.

--

In short, let the Qi flow. Breathe in and out.

--

:D

monkeyfoot

08-05-2006, 05:52 AM

My smart grandparents used to have a rule. They used to tell us, "Never discuss politics or religion."

After some consideration, there are a few things which need to be added to that rule, which is, "Never discuss anything that someone else feels strongly about."

I add to that list martial arts, stock market, housing, sports, science, raising kids, women, men ...

yea its true, no matter what, if someone has a firm point of view then theres no point discussing other possibilities. Its human nature to ruthlessly defend our POV.

craig

Flying-Monkey

08-05-2006, 06:28 AM

everyone direct thier deadly qi blasts at flying monkey

What did I do?
:D

greendragon

08-05-2006, 09:14 AM

Same old argument again ? So far the chi proponents are winning. You can have chi even if you don't "believe" in it. When I think of science I get a vision of rednecks with test tubes trying to make meth. Cutting edge science was once letting blood to drain off evil spirits. We are just further down the time line now with much yet to be discovered.

David Jamieson

08-05-2006, 09:20 AM

IT'S TRUE!!

The more you try to catch an idea in a jar, the harder it will be to do and the further away you'll get. (~G please take f.a.r.t off the censored list, it's a harmless word and it prevents one from saying a word that is used in KF discourse all too often. :p )

It's simple and self evident to me.

I live, therefor Chi exists.

Please explain "life", does it exist? what is the source of it? It appears everywhere and it's obviouis that it's there, but what is it??? This thing "life" "aliveness" and so on?

Fu-Pow

08-05-2006, 09:37 AM

I live, therefor Chi exists.

Please explain "life", does it exist? what is the source of it? It appears everywhere and it's obviouis that it's there, but what is it??? This thing "life" "aliveness" and so on?

Why (in the big sense) are things "alive"? Why are we here? Why does the universe exist? Does god exist?

These are questions for religion not science.

Biology is a discipline that examines HOW life forms functions. To date, "vital energy" (which what chi, prana, ki, etc. is describing) has never been found as a satisfactory answer to describe ANY biological phenomena.

We know this: the universe in general is moving toward greater entropy or disorganization. Life forms appear "miraculous" because we stand in opposition to this seeming trend for things to fall apart.

But the truth is that life forms are entropy loops. We take the energy from other entitities entropy and loop it back into ourselves. The sun is slowly burning itself out. It gives off energy. The plants on our planet take the energy from the sun burning out and loop it. Then we as humans take that energy and use it to sustain our own organization.

In other words (as anyone knows from cleaning their bedroom) it takes energy to maintain organization. That's why we are constantly having to eat other life forms to maintain our own organizational integrity.

There's nothing magical here. Its all thermodynamics.

How did life forms as entropy loops first form? That's what I'd like to know but conditions on earth 4 billion years ago may have been such that conditions allowed for a spontaneous jump start. Meaning that the ambient energy of the earth system may have allowed chemical processes to take place that normally wouldn't have been possible in earth's current atmosphere. Again, were back to thermodynamics.

neilhytholt

08-05-2006, 09:42 AM

There's an old axiom of science that lack of proof is not proof of lack.

In other words, just because there's no evidence for a thing, does not mean you have disproved its existence.

I'm still looking for the Yeti, by the way. There must be some smart fleecy snow man somewhere out there, otherwise there is no intelligent life on this planet.

mantis108

08-05-2006, 11:52 AM

I hear you and I understand your point. All I am saying is that the Qi as a phenomenon can be explained theoretically with Quantum physic, which uses probability mathematics (I am aware of the notion that God/any label of the Divine does not play dice), if one is "scientifically" inclined. It's not mystical and doesn't have to be but it does require an open mind (pun intended) and hard examination of self.

BTW, IMHO there's nothing wrong being a mystic as defined in the Tao of Phyiscs as well as by definition given in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, which states that a mystic is a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity or identity with or absorption into the Deity or the ultimate reality, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond understanding. So to contemplate Quanta (through the dicipline of Quantum physics); thus gain spiritual apprehension (a faculty that is pretty unique of the human "entropy loop") is that wrong? Can't we be both the scientist and the mystic at the sametime?

Just some thoughts

Regards

Mantis108

SanHeChuan

08-05-2006, 01:04 PM

I thought MANA was what the jews ate while wandering around in the desert.
It started out as meaning food from the land, and somehow got interpreted as energy of the land, or some such.

Fu-Pow

08-05-2006, 04:28 PM

Can't we be both the scientist and the mystic at the sametime?

You can, at least a mystic and a scholar. However, what I'm saying is that we should not confuse science and mysticism.

Mysticism is an investigation of the "I" from a first person perspective, science is an investigation of "It" from a 3rd person perspective. There are other perspectives but in my mind these are very different and because you are adept in one doesn't mean you are adept in the other discipline.

Sometimes it sounds like science and mysticism are saying the same thing (ala Tao of Physics) but really these are semantic similarity. The way they were derived was through totally different perspectives and methodologies.

BTW, you might check out american philosopher Ken Wilber. While I don't agree with everything that he has said he has some great ideas on a "reconciling" of science, religion and even chi, prana, etc.

greendragon

08-06-2006, 03:44 PM

I thought only hippies had chi.

dainos

08-06-2006, 04:26 PM

this topic is done..... it is over done. just leave it alone and try something else.
i know its there for me, cause it can make my hands sweat and get really hot.

if someone else wants to argue someone if the person who doesnt belive it. try to make others not belive it. i think is bad, the other side is equally as bad. ill put out there. buts its the readers choice if he wants to learn it or not.

soo this topic has got nothing. laters

JohnnyMnemonic

08-06-2006, 05:38 PM

Do you believe in "Chi"? If yes, what is it? And why do you believe in it?

Do you believe that the Sun is hot and water is wet? Yes I believe in Chi.

Chi is energy. All living things have energy. This energy behaves like heat energy or electromagnetic energy. It is invisible, it can travel through the air, it can be used to accomplish a goal.

As a human being, you have it whether you want it or not. You might have a little or a lot. Your mental belief in Chi will determine how you percieve it. If you refuse to believe in Chi, then you never see it. If you believe it is possible, then you will find out about it.

Why do I believe in it? Why do I believe the Sun is hot? I can feel it. I have experienced it in my life. I experience from the moment I get up in the morning until I go to bed at night. I cannot ignore it. I have no wish to ignore it.

In reading over the many responses, it bothers me that people make this so hard. Chi is not hard. It is baby stuff. You guys just think about it the wrong way. You make it difficult.

I said Chi was invisible right? That means you cannot see it. How do scientists determine the existence of heat or radiation?

They looked for the effects of heat or radiation in the real physical things they could see. We cannot see electromagnetic energy, but we know it exists because when we turn on the TV those electromagnetic waves come into the antenna and make the TV work.

It is trivial to do the same thing with Chi. Look for it's effects on the things around you that you can see. I could post a bunch of videos demonstrating Chi. We would argue about what the real cause was. Accident, coincidence or chi. In the end, after I showed you 50 videos or pictures, I would think the sheer weight of numbers would begin to make you doubt all those accidents and coincidences. I would hope all the examples would force you to admit that something you do not understand is going on. Something that you could call Chi, or Zip diidlyicious if that is what you wanted to call it.

Stop making this so difficult. It is as easy as walking down the sidewalk.

Asia

08-06-2006, 06:10 PM

Do you believe in "Chi"? If yes, what is it? And why do you believe in it?
I voted NO.

I view CHI/KI/QI as a concept to explain body functions that they didn't have an explination for then.

One of the reasons for this is because pple can't come to an agreement for what it acutaly is. Many say "energy" but why have seperate word for energy when there already is one?

Dragon Warrior

08-06-2006, 08:10 PM

One of the reasons for this is because pple can't come to an agreement for what it acutaly is. Many say "energy" but why have seperate word for energy when there already is one?

Interesting!

The Xia

08-06-2006, 08:31 PM

I thought MANA was what the jews ate while wandering around in the desert.
It started out as meaning food from the land, and somehow got interpreted as energy of the land, or some such.
Manna is in the bible as the food that the Jews ate while wandering the desert. I never heard about it as anything but food.

The Xia

08-06-2006, 08:34 PM

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42638
I posted a video link. How do you explain THAT with body mechanics?

TaiChiBob

08-07-2006, 05:10 AM

Greetings..

Many say "energy" but why have seperate word for energy when there already is one?Why use any foreign word when there are english equivalents? Qi is an expression used by the ancestors to explain the physical phenomena not explainable in terms of routine physical activity.. Current use of the word satisfies the human desire for a bit of mysticism, yet.. science, biophysicists, can offer much in the way of explanations of what was once unexplainable.. Qi is not just another word for energy, it also relates to specific uses of that energy and may better be thought of as a particular process or processes that produce an effect greater than can be reasonably expected from routine neuro-musculo-skeletal processes..

Qi is a cultural perspective, energy is another cultural perspective.. the more perspectives we consider, the more well-rounded our own perspectives become.. Cutting-edge particle physics is leaning more toward the mystical concepts, mind/consciousness as creator, than the traditional Newtonian mechanical physics.. we advance our knowledge based on exploration of the unknown, not on denial..

Be well..

TaiChiBob

08-07-2006, 05:14 AM

Greetings..

I posted a video link. How do you explain THAT with body mechanics?Conditioning and training, no biggie...

Be well..

JohnnyMnemonic

08-07-2006, 08:49 AM

You ever notice how it is human nature to NOT want to know the reason for things?

People say they want to know about something. But if you offer to explain it to them, they ignore you or drive you away.

I think people are really just looking for a reason to talk. No one really cares what chi is or isn't. They want to talk about it everyday for entertainment.

I am beginning to understand those old masters that never explain things. There is no point. You meet 100 people clamoring for an explanation of chi. You give those 100 people energy by trying to explain to them. Then 99 of them turn around and leave because of whatever reason. Leaving you with 1 person who really cares about Chi.

Think about it. That old master wasted energy on 99 people. That is a lot of energy wasting. Why not do what the masters are known for doing? Save all your energy and don't explain anything to anyone. Wait for that 1 real person to rise to the top and then shower all that energy you saved from those 99 useless talkers on the one deserving student who truly desires to become an elevated, superior human being?

SPJ

08-07-2006, 09:07 AM

there are things that may be put into "words".

there are also things that may be felt and sensed and not easily 'placed" into words or just beyond words.

--

:)

David Jamieson

08-07-2006, 09:17 AM

These are questions for religion not science.

I have to disagree with this. Science is about measuring things, making them quantative and qualifiable as facts.

religion is not exactly the vehicle for this kind of knowledge.

the biggest problem is that people want to terminologically define something and put it in a box all by itself seperate from oethr things which it may very well be a contributing factor of.

so, when one says is chi this or that, the question is where the error is.

You live, you breath, you sustain, you transform food to energy, you transform air to the parts that it is and use the molecule of oxygen for this, nitrogen for that, and useles molecules are absorbed or dicarded by the body, or any organic living thing.

So, those processes identify both CHi in it's raw form and in it's transformed state and so on. If one calles it elan vidal, life essence, or other variations on a theme, they are not, in my opinion, incorrect in doing so and I firmly believe that science will indeed discover a unified life force that courses through all living things, the sum of it's parts and how it functions will all be found too.

In the meantime, I refer to it as Chi. You are free to call that whatever you like I suppose, but by all recorded musings on the subject, it is essentially the life force, it is the energy that defines that something is living or not. It's not just "breath" it's not just "electricity" and it is not just one single process and the energy derived from it. It is permeating all living things at all levels.

I can't think of something that would be as difficult to define with the state of technology or knowledge as it is right now. We are still not there yet to be able to be definitive of it. BUt that doesn't mean we can't grasp the fundamental concept of it.

Many things are apparent and yet intrinsically unknown for now. Chi is one of these.

JohnnyMnemonic

08-07-2006, 05:06 PM

I read this great sci fi book once. It reminds me alot of you guys.

There was this society that was going to build a rocket to go into space. A young guy growing up wanted to fly on the rocket. He had a problem though. He didn't believe the rocket was going to go into space.

The society was run by old people. Like over 50 or 60. When people get that old they become very conservative. They never want to take a risk.

These old people had been building the rocket for 50 years. It was finished in 5 years, but the conservative old people didn't want to launch it. They were afraid of change. So they invented things that could go wrong with the rocket. They took it apart and rebuilt for the next 45 years until the young man entered the story.

You guys remind me of those old guys. Afraid to change so you just give up. "What is chi?". "Oh it is some mysterious stuff we can never know about. End. Finish. Stop. Quit. Give up". Or as someone else said "Many things are apparent and yet intrinsically unknown for now. Chi is one of these."

Honestly. I can only think of 3 things to say.

Are you over 50 and afraid to change? Afraid to learn anything new? Are you like the people in the story?

Are you quitters? Have you been trained to give up when the going gets rough? I know the schools are getting worse and worse for the kids these days.

Is this purposeful? Are ya'll playing the mystical "let's not talk about it" kung fu teacher role for some reason or the other? I see teachers hush up talk all the time for some reason or the other. Usually they don't want the conversation to go somewhere that they have to say "I don't know".

Saying "I don't know" can be very hard on the student/teacher relationship. Most students do not understand that no one knows everything. They hear a teacher say "I don't know" and they want to leave or they lose respect for them.

JohnnyMnemonic

08-07-2006, 07:50 PM

Any alive or curious people here? What do you make of this picture?

http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/4198/1930696693128532609_rs.jpg

Just a picture? Or something that has a bearing on this topic?

If it is just a picture in your opinion, why is he doing what he is doing?

If the picture has a bearing on this topic, what do you think it is?

TaiChiBob

08-08-2006, 06:25 AM

Greetings..

Is this purposeful? Are ya'll playing the mystical "let's not talk about it" kung fu teacher role for some reason or the other? I see teachers hush up talk all the time for some reason or the other. Usually they don't want the conversation to go somewhere that they have to say "I don't know".It seems that we are talking quite a bit about Qi/Chi.. although sometimes people refuse to hear anything that doesn't conform to their perspectives.. and, as i have stated numerous times on this forum, i really don't "know" the answers.. but, i do know what works for me.. and, i visit these forums to share insights and look for information that either supports my beliefs or gives me new info and reason to adjust my beliefs to a more beneficial perspective.. what i do not do is to come here and be disrespectful to people i don't even know, unless, of course, they initiate rude and pointless commentary..

People say they want to know about something. But if you offer to explain it to them, they ignore you or drive you away. It's not the offer to explain.. it's usually that the explanation is deficient or presented in such a manner as to devalue its credibility.. respect, civil discourse, and a willingness to show the same consideration for the opinions of others that you wish them to show for yours will usually yield an open and beneficial dialogue..

Be well..

SPJ

08-08-2006, 07:50 AM

not to complicate things, but

there are many types of Chi in TCM theory.

MA, injury and TCM are related fields in the old time.

If you practice CMA, you are also familiar with some aspects of TCM.

wind or evil Chi would make you sick or catch cold.

guarding Chi or wei chi will protect you from sickness.

there are also yin and yang chi etc etc.

--

:D

TaiChiBob

08-08-2006, 08:09 AM

Greetings..

SPJ; Well, i guess i tend to simplify things.. i see it as one Chi/Qi.. applied in various uses.. One energy, uniting all things, used according to necessity/preference.. Tao, the source..

Be well...

CoRWiN

08-08-2006, 09:25 AM

Chi is the electrical energy that courses through our bodies, so yes I believe in it. If the mind controls the body, it only makes sense that one would be able to master the currents of electricty of our neuro system as well.

Quantum Physics does a good deal to support the concept of remote chi control. One of the basic concepts in Quantum Physics is that something over here can directly affect something over there with absolutely no observable connection. How this is done is anybodies guess, but like it was said earlier, just because we can not prove something, does not mean it is disproved.

The Xia

08-08-2006, 09:57 AM

Conditioning and training, no biggie...
Care to elaborate? :p

JohnnyMnemonic

08-08-2006, 11:39 AM

It's not the offer to explain.. it's usually that the explanation is deficient or presented in such a manner as to devalue its credibility.. respect, civil discourse, and a willingness to show the same consideration for the opinions of others that you wish them to show for yours will usually yield an open and beneficial dialogue..

Be well..

I disagree. What you see as respect, blah, blah, I see as the dithering of a beauracracy.

Like Lebanon.

The Isrealis are mudering hundreds of people right in front of the TV. Instead of stopping it, people are "talking respectfully, civilly, and showing consideration". Of course they are. They are not being murdered. They can take all the time in the world they want.

Me? I sweep all that time wasting away with a wave of my hand and get right to the subject. What is it that you need? Those people in Lebanon need the Isrealis to stop murdering them. I think kung fu students need concrete answers instead of time wasting civility and gladhandling.

JohnnyMnemonic

08-08-2006, 11:40 AM

PangQuan

08-08-2006, 12:19 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mana

PangQuan

08-08-2006, 12:43 PM

Mana should not be confused with the Biblical manna (also spelled mana or mannah) which, according to the Bible (Exodus, chapter 16), provided sustenance for the Israelites. However, some believe its mystical definition can also serve as an alternative interpretation for the substance described in Exodus

TaiChiBob

08-09-2006, 04:21 AM

Greetings..

Johnny: Tsk, tsk.. your delusions of self-grandeur are blinding us.. should we bow down to your vast superiority? or, as is appropriate, ignore your blathering? So far, you have criticized much and offered little.. show us some real wisdom, if you can. Talk is cheap, put something out there with substance..

The Xia: Start with light weights and slowly increase weights developing tolerance and tensile integreity.. I've seen Shaolin Monks dragging 50 lb. rocks tied to their "dangles".. the resistance of dragging put quite a strain on things.. "conditioning and training"...

Be well..

auntie

08-09-2006, 05:14 AM

I've never tried to put this into words before but here goes;
I tend to view Chi more like centrifugal force; not something that exists as a separate energy/force but rather something that gives that appearance but is actually a combination of other things working together.

These would be things like whether your muscles are working together or opposing each other, your state of mind, the amount of complex carbs in your diet and other things.

I don't believe in a mystic energy that hums around my body and can be concentrated and then inhaled, but that's not to say that such exercises don't have an affect on your chi because they do have an affect on the things that compose it.

Centrifugal force does not exist but the forces that together give that appearance can be harnessed, focussed and used. the same is true of chi.

Does this make sense to anyone?

jacksawild

08-09-2006, 05:28 AM

TaiChiBob

08-09-2006, 06:15 AM

Greetings..

jacksawild: Pretty good post, nicely stated..

Be well..

mantis108

08-09-2006, 12:52 PM

We have some very useful terms thanks to the giant minds that have preceeded us. Terms like: Inertia, Gravity, Momentum, Pressure, Mechanics, Leverage, Electricity, Energy, Power and we have some inspired mathematics which we use to break these "effects" down in order to understand their respective aspects academically. The ancient Chinese didn't have these luxuries which we today take for granted; the only way for them to understand how physics worked was by watching, recording, theorising and learning (that should sound familiar to any science bods out there). What this resulted in was an all-encompassing term - Chi or Qi - when we think about force in scientific terms we realise that there is just one energy in the universe, this energy vibrates at different frequencies producing different manifestations i.e light, sound, heat and even in concentrated form all matter is this simple energy. This is proved by the matter energy equivalency calculation came up with by Einstein (E = MC2 or Energy = Matter mulitplied by the speed of light squared), so every particle of matter is infact a huge amount of vibrating energy, infact it is mostly empty space (This should sound familiar to traditional martial artists).

You do know that when the astronauts gazed down from space upon the earth they saw the Great Wall of China - the only man made structure visible from space? You do realize that for any architectural structure to maintain long term integrity it MUST have mathematically sound and solid plans, right? Isn't this the way how the Greeks, Egyptians Romans, etc built their momeuments? Do you know how many ancient buildings (palaces, castles, houses, temples, bridge, tombs, etc) are there in China throughout the ages? Are you suggesting these were all built by heuristic method? Chinese civilization and it's extention is but a miracle? I hate to break the news to you, my friend. Chinese has mathematics and science thousands of years ago. Where do you think compass, gun powder, rockets, etc came from? They all came from a people who speaks of Qi.

Qi is not lumping everything mysterious that we don't understand and label it as such. That's ignorant people who has no idea what Qi is that do that. They do that so that they don't have to be questioned about it by those who seek the truth. Qi can be theoretically demonstrated as an intelligent design. Ancient scholars have used the Yijing (classic of change), which is now also inspirational to Quantum Physicists and information technologists, to demonstrate this clearly. It involves the understanding of Shu (mathematics), Xiang (phenomena), and Li (reasoning) - that I called the Holy Trinity of Yi. This intelligent design is not theoretical only. It exists in at least 2 forms - human body (as the grand representive of all sentient beings/animals) and the solar system (as the grand representive of all celestral systems and all levels of ecologies). Whether this intelligent design is divine or not, that's upto you.

So if you think you are the ONLY enlightened "scientist" who have figured everything out, please think again. The fact that Chinese have very little interest in building crazy machines and tools to "experience" the world is because it is our cultural bias (if you will) to adhere to nature and to be holistic (ie Daoism).

OK.. I'll admit, I despise mixing the mystical with the physical. It is ok, however, to know that there are things that we don't understand; this in a way, is mystical in and of itself.

You are certainly entitiled to your opinion. Personally, no offense, I find that it lacks a certain maturity in the thought process. There is a leap of faith into science and justifying the means by the end in your arguement.

When we learn combat Kung Fu we are infact learning how motion and energy work together without the complex equations. We are directly experiencing the universe and our brain is automatically making sense of it, which is exactly what it is best at doing. If something about our fighting system doesn't work, we disregard it; we invent new techniques and test them, if successful they are added to our canon. When we read of the old masters talking about chi or energy and it sounds mystical to us, that is because it seemed mystical to them. This is the way the universe works people, those who endeavour to learn the secrets will have an advantage over those who do not.

First and foremost, not one needs to learn to fight. As you said you/we are "naturally" wired to do so. So why bother with a "fighting system"? Just make a fist and start kicking and punching. Now if you insist on a "fighting system" that would means a "design" is involved right? In that case, could you enlighten us with your "fighting system" in its entirity in the simplest manner possible?

Qi simply is a unified theory that unites the mind-body continuum with the space-time continuum. It simply is a plan or map (just like any architectural plan) of an intelligent design. How mystical is that? BTW, in some ways Quantum Physics have very similar perspective and dynamics IMHO. It can be used to explain a Kung Fu system; hence, the term Quan Fa (pugilistic system-method).

What do you fight with the mind, the body or both? Is the mind present or adscent when you are fighting? Do you become the slave of emotions or you use emotions to your advantage? Do we know these factors apply to our opponent just the same it applies to us for sure? If so how to "prove" it?

I consider myself more of a mystic but I don't talk about anything being "secret". The plans (pun intended) are there in plain sight. Do you have the eye for it that's up to you. As my teachers and mentors said "Kung Fu is in the details there is no secret."

Everything can be explained by science but science can't explain everything (:D I just made that up).

Agreed.

If you discount chi because you are "scientific", you are failing on both levels as a scientist and as a martial artist. Not until you directly experience that which you lampoon should you make any assumptions and if you try the techniques in a half-arsed way never expecting results, guess what? You wont get any. Do you really think thousands before us would have wasted their time for nothing?

I am sorry. You kind of lost me there.

Oh.. and please, the next person who speaks about Quantum Physics and kung fu, please understand it first... in other words... shhhhhhhhhhh

Well, you are entitled to your opinion for sure. I would suggest that you watch the movie "What the bleep do we know!?"

Mantis108

jacksawild

08-09-2006, 01:46 PM

Are you suggesting these were all built by heuristic method? Chinese civilization and it's extention is but a miracle? I hate to break the news to you, my friend. Chinese has mathematics and science thousands of years ago.

Hello mantis108. I think you perhaps misunderstood me so I'll explain a little about me. My backround is in mathematics and I have a deep interest in physics so what I was saying was that the old masters didn't have access to the mathematics we have today to explain concepts like gravity and complex equations. The advent of calculus and logarithms didn't come until Isaac Newton and John Napier in the 17th century. Even if the mathematics of the processes involved, where chi is the claimed contributory factor, were understood it wouldn't be much use to a martial artist and so I wasn't deriding their method, rather I was praising it's effectiveness.

Qi is not lumping everything mysterious that we don't understand and label it as such. That's ignorant people who has no idea what Qi is that do that.

Again, you seem to have perceived my opinion as the opposite of my intent. Chi is the energy on which all things are built, the list of forces I gave to quantify chi was not meant to be exhaustive but an example of how our western science splits a simple truth into many factors to explain seperate processes. Those who understand energy (in a science way) and those who understand chi know that all processes work in exactly the same way even a push is identical to a pull depending on your relative position and there is no such thing as motion. My point was that chi can be explained (in a western way) it's just that no one has yet explained it.

So if you think you are the ONLY enlightened "scientist" who have figured everything out, please think again. The fact that Chinese have very little interest in building crazy machines and tools to "experience" the world is because it is our cultural bias (if you will) to adhere to nature and to be holistic (ie Daoism).

hmm... Your words, not mine.

You are certainly entitiled to your opinion. Personally, no offense, I find that it lacks a certain maturity in the thought process. There is a leap of faith into science and justifying the means by the end in your arguement.

I try to make no assumptions about anything, I have a methodical way of thinking which I have trained myself to acheive. Please explain how I lack maturity, I am more than willing to be proved wrong but I will require proof.

First and foremost, not one needs to learn to fight. As you said you/we are "naturally" wired to do so. So why bother with a "fighting system"? Just make a fist and start kicking and punching. Now if you insist on a "fighting system" that would means a "design" is involved right? In that case, could you enlighten us with your "fighting system" in its entirity in the simplest manner possible?

Fighting system, to me, means being well practiced in techniques. It will not teach you to fight, that comes with bad luck and experience.

Qi simply is a unified theory that unites the mind-body continuum with the space-time continuum. It simply is a plan or map (just like any architectural plan) of an intelligent design. How mystical is that? BTW, in some ways Quantum Physics have very similar perspective and dynamics IMHO. It can be used to explain a Kung Fu system; hence, the term Quan Fa (pugilistic system-method).

That's quite mystical. Define intelligent design and how on earth is it being mapped. Are you talking anatomy? Also, Quantum Physics talks about sub-atomic particles. Without exception all of it's theories break down in the macro world, the one on which we operate. People talk about the uncertainty principle, wave-particle duality and the principle of opposites and link it to mystical thinking but it's nothing new these principles exist throughout nature and are there for all to see. If you throw a rock into the sea the reason you can't predict where it lands has nothing to do with Quantum physics' uncertainty principle. We now that the oceans waves are made of millions of single drops of water but that has nothing to do with wave-particle duality. Magnets attract or repel depending on presented opposites..... well that does have to do with quantum physics in a way but it has nothing to do with the priciple of opposites. Just because the principles are similar does not link them in any meaningful way.

What do you fight with the mind, the body or both? Is the mind present or adscent when you are fighting? Do you become the slave of emotions or you use emotions to your advantage? Do we know these factors apply to our opponent just the same it applies to us for sure? If so how to "prove" it?

I consider myself more of a mystic but I don't talk about anything being "secret". The plans (pun intended) are there in plain sight. Do you have the eye for it that's up to you. As my teachers and mentors said "Kung Fu is in the details there is no secret."

Mantis108

"First learn Kung Fu, then learn to fight" - My master.

jacksawild

08-09-2006, 01:54 PM

If you discount chi because you are "scientific", you are failing on both levels as a scientist and as a martial artist. Not until you directly experience that which you lampoon should you make any assumptions and if you try the techniques in a half-arsed way never expecting results, guess what? You wont get any. Do you really think thousands before us would have wasted their time for nothing?

I am sorry. You kind of lost me there.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion for sure. I would suggest that you watch the movie "What the bleep do we know!?"

Mantis108

What I was saying was that people who claim to be scientists and discount chi as mystical and therefore worthless are infact betraying science because they have not tested it. Assumption is bad in science. My second point was that Kung Fu is science by a different name. The science of combat and movement.

I will watch that film, thank you. It seems you have some interest in quantum physics, which I encourage wholeheartedly, so here is a link to a site where you can watch a series of programs by Dr Brian Greene, it explains what we know and what we don't know about the universe. It'll probably only reinforce your opinion but hey, that's cool, I could be wrong :)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html)

David Jamieson

08-09-2006, 02:13 PM

Scientists, that actually are scientists as opposed to armchair article reading variety that will more often than not publish critiques as opposed to studies..do not for teh most part discount the idea of chi or life force.

There is a measure of it. It's called " a lifetime". lol

But as a terminological thing narrowed to a single source...well taht's not going to happen because chi manifests as many different aspects and flows through all living things.

so nailing it down as electrivity or breath, or air, or fa.rts, or whatever is incorrect from the get go. It isn't any of those things and at the same time, it is all of those things.

mantis108

08-09-2006, 03:29 PM

Hello mantis108. I think you perhaps misunderstood me so I'll explain a little about me. My backround is in mathematics and I have a deep interest in physics so what I was saying was that the old masters didn't have access to the mathematics we have today to explain concepts like gravity and complex equations. The advent of calculus and logarithms didn't come until Isaac Newton and John Napier in the 17th century. Even if the mathematics of the processes involved, where chi is the claimed contributory factor, were understood it wouldn't be much use to a martial artist and so I wasn't deriding their method, rather I was praising it's effectiveness.

Thanks for the clarification. If I have misunderstood you therefore misinterpreted your post, then I am sorry. My apologies.

While it is true that many old masters didn't have access to the mathematics, or education for that matter, we have today, they do have mathematics at their disposal. We could argue which type of math, how much or how many of them would have used it but to say those who develop the theories on Qi as well as Kung Fu systems didn't employ mathematic isn't an accurate statement. I am a little sensitive about people tend to think that Kung Fu simply is trial and error, which is contrary to the evidences that are available, if we care to do a little investigation and research. I merely wanted to point to the fact that there is more to it than meet the eyes and people should do a little more research into it before jumping to conculsion.

Again, you seem to have perceived my opinion as the opposite of my intent. Chi is the energy on which all things are built, the list of forces I gave to quantify chi was not meant to be exhaustive but an example of how our western science splits a simple truth into many factors to explain seperate processes. Those who understand energy (in a science way) and those who understand chi know that all processes work in exactly the same way even a push is identical to a pull depending on your relative position and there is no such thing as motion. My point was that chi can be explained (in a western way) it's just that no one has yet explained it.

Well, I think the wording of your first paragraph gave me the impression that you seems to suggest the ancient masters have little to no clue of what they were doing and they just happen to get things "happening". While I agreed that Qi can be explained in a western way, we can also let people learn about its explanations in the language and culture that it came from. This is the reason why I proposed looking into Quantum Physics in the first place. I do understand that there are those who feels Quantum Physics is too mystical in nature ( I also outlined my position on that already). I guess it's to each their own.

I try to make no assumptions about anything, I have a methodical way of thinking which I have trained myself to acheive. Please explain how I lack maturity, I am more than willing to be proved wrong but I will require proof.

Well, I am sorry about my initial comments in picturing you as taking the side of "science fundamentalists". Now your clarification makes it clear that it isn't so. "Lack of maturity" was perhaps a bit harsh and rash on my part. But the way your first 2 paragraphs that were worded, does seem jumping to conclusion fairly quickly and decidedly. Certainly a seasoned scientist or learned scholar would not form an opinion without puting in place qualifers and examples. Again, I don't mean to offend and I am glad that you clarified your post.

Fighting system, to me, means being well practiced in techniques. It will not teach you to fight, that comes with bad luck and experience.

Am I to understand that this means your definition of fighting system does not include the use of strategies derived from style specific philosophy? A fight system is but a skill set?

That's quite mystical. Define intelligent design and how on earth is it being mapped. Are you talking anatomy? Also, Quantum Physics talks about sub-atomic particles. Without exception all of it's theories break down in the macro world, the one on which we operate. People talk about the uncertainty principle, wave-particle duality and the principle of opposites and link it to mystical thinking but it's nothing new these principles exist throughout nature and are there for all to see. If you throw a rock into the sea the reason you can't predict where it lands has nothing to do with Quantum physics' uncertainty principle. We now that the oceans waves are made of millions of single drops of water but that has nothing to do with wave-particle duality. Magnets attract or repel depending on presented opposites..... well that does have to do with quantum physics in a way but it has nothing to do with the priciple of opposites. Just because the principles are similar does not link them in any meaningful way.

I believe there is thread and a very long discussion of intelligent design on this forum. I will see if I can find the thread.

We are now able to map out the human genom (all creatures for that matter) because the discovery of DNA. BTW, DNA (formed by 4 protien molecules) is kind of reminiscent of Si Xiang (4 phenomena) from the Yijing. There are theories out there that the gravity pull between the moon and the earth might be the reason why DNA structure has the double helix feature. Scientist also recently observed in an event that is believed to be a supernova that a large double helix formation of "star dust" (possibly gravitational pull at work) is found near by. So is there a relationship between the behavier of molecules that of the human body, gravity and the celestrial bodys in the universe? You can be the judge of that. BTW, human body is 80-90 % water. If the moon has effects on ocean tides, would it not have effects on human's fluids (ie blood)? Interestingly, there is a book about Qigong from Han dynasty nearly 2000 years old by a famous Daoist that noted the moon phase and used it to theorized on Qigong practice. So the fact that many people talked about or appeared to have learned Qigong yet they have not studied classical theories of it. How can we expect them to teach their student properly? It's no wonder that Qi being viewed as some hocus pocus mumbo jumbo.

"First learn Kung Fu, then learn to fight" - My master.

Thank you for sharing that. :)

Regards

Mantis108

JohnnyMnemonic

08-10-2006, 10:06 PM

cjurakpt

08-12-2006, 08:17 PM

What do you want bob? I like to give people what they want.

yeah Bob, he'd like to give it to you, if that's what you want...

JohnnyMnemonic

08-13-2006, 07:23 AM

Heya stalker. I noticed you have hit every thread I am participating in to drop your waste.

You enjoy character assasination, don't you?

cjurakpt

08-13-2006, 07:28 AM

I post on two threads he's on, out of however many he's posted to, and I'm granted stalker status? wow, that was easy!

Green Cloud

08-13-2006, 08:06 AM

Hey take it easy JM that was funny you got to admit you left the door wide open.:D

cjurakpt

08-13-2006, 08:11 AM

Hey take it easy JM that was funny you got to admit you left the door wide open.:D

actually, I'd think that Bob would be the one who'd have to be leaving his door "wide open" since JM is proposing to be the guy on the delivery end...really, I'm surprised - given your cultural heritage, I'd expect more precision from you in matters of this nature...:D ;)

SPJ

08-13-2006, 08:59 AM

I like to give people what they want.

that is a catchy phrase for business.

we give or sell what client/customer whats.

so the Q is what do we want or what do you want.

--

:D

SPJ

08-13-2006, 09:06 AM

On topic;

Qi or chi is really widely used in Chinese culture and lingo.

the weather is called heavenly Chi or Tian Chi.

if you are angered, you have Chi arosen from the spleen or Pi Chi.

if you are just or centered, it is said you have the just Chi or Zhen Chi or Yi Chi.

Chi is used to represent the essense or characteristic of things or state.

since things are forms or shapes or objects that are "lifeless", The Chi give them the essence.

etc etc.

:D

David Jamieson

08-13-2006, 10:12 AM

most people cannot grasp the multiple levels.
Most people want it honed down to a single answer and put into a box that they can easily understand.

most people are idiots. :p

TaiChiBob

08-13-2006, 11:27 AM

Greetings..

What do you want bob? I like to give people what they want.I would like to know your background.. you speak much but say little.. you ask, but seldom answer.. you accuse others and excuse yourself.. You address people as if you have some superior knowledge, i.e.: the Taiji Symbol thread.. Share your history.. i have no evidence that suggests you are any more credible than those you admonish.. LOL, "don't be shy"..

Be well..

JohnnyMnemonic

08-13-2006, 01:35 PM

Greetings..

I would like to know your background.. you speak much but say little.. you ask, but seldom answer.. you accuse others and excuse yourself.. You address people as if you have some superior knowledge, i.e.: the Taiji Symbol thread.. Share your history.. i have no evidence that suggests you are any more credible than those you admonish.. LOL, "don't be shy"..

Be well..

No. I have had a taste of YiLiQuan1's hate. No matter what I post, it will be derided and ridiculed. Besides, you just want to compare e *****'s.

Nothing matters but the facts. Facts are facts whether a homeless man says them or grandmaster wong says them. You are still stuck in that stage where you won't listen to a person unless you are personally impressed by them.

You ought to give up that arrogance. I have learned more than a few lessons from homeless people or total strangers.

YiLiQuan1

08-13-2006, 02:05 PM

No. I have had a taste of YiLiQuan1's hate.

This guy loves to paste my name all over this forum, all the while evading my questions and refusing to support his claims. Gotta love him... ;)

No matter what I post, it will be derided and ridiculed.

Not true. If you'd actually said something worth listening to, it's value would stand alone. So far, though, you haven't.

Besides, you just want to compare e *****'s.

That's essentially what you are doing by setting yourself up as better than everyone else. You want us to believe your knowledge is "bigger," and ours isn't, but when pressed you refuse to back up your claims.

Nothing matters but the facts. Facts are facts whether a homeless man says them or grandmaster wong says them. You are still stuck in that stage where you won't listen to a person unless you are personally impressed by them.

Let's start with the facts about you... Who have you studied under? What style, how long, where, under whom, who were your classmates, what is notable about your training as compared to everyone else's, etc. Those are just facts, nothing more.

You ought to give up that arrogance. I have learned more than a few lessons from homeless people or total strangers.

Again with the "I'm better than everyone else" schtick. If you were as humble as you claim, you'd have answered some questions by now.

cjurakpt

08-13-2006, 03:29 PM

No. I have had a taste of YiLiQuan1's hate. No matter what I post, it will be derided and ridiculed. Besides, you just want to compare e *****'s.

Nothing matters but the facts. Facts are facts whether a homeless man says them or grandmaster wong says them. You are still stuck in that stage where you won't listen to a person unless you are personally impressed by them.

You ought to give up that arrogance. I have learned more than a few lessons from homeless people or total strangers.

ya know, if you took the time to read a lot of what Bob posts, you'd actually have more to go on than your psychic friends network info - he's actually one of the most humble folks around, given his background, obvious knowledge base, etc. - and he is always very forthcoming in his posts, shares his experiences and insights in a manner that invites even the least experienced reader to participate, instead of in the rather exclusionary tone that you project; now, you can say that's just my opinion, but it seems to echo what most everyone else here is saying;

see, what you seem to get confused is this: no one really cares, ultimately, about what you may or may not know - you can say anything you want, we really can't verify; what is actually important here is the notion of community, or inter-relationships - if people get on your case, it's not because of what you say, it's how you say it - you may be the most advanced practitioner on earth, yet if you can't relate productively to others, what's the point? now, I'm sure you can rationalize why everyone here is in the wrong and you are in the right - and that's cool - but let me ask you a question: if no one on here appreciates you, if no one can handle your neo-socratic method of "teaching", if all we do is focus hatred onto you and defecate all over your posts (an image that you seem to be fond of repeating...what's up with that?), if this whole experience is so negative for you, then why, sir, do you keep coming back? wouldn't everyone just be happier (yourself inluded), if you stopped posting? on the other hand, if you really feel the need to communicate in this forum, desn't it stand to reason that you might consider that perhaps you may wish to amend the tenor of your posts? after 4 or 5 people point out the same thing about you, maybe there's a reason? all of us here at one point or another have been rightly corrected about our behavior by another - the difference bewteen us and you is that we swallow the medicine, apologize if necessary, and then try to do the most difficult thing one can do: change our patterened habitual responses and be less self-oriented in our world view and posts;

you can take the above as an attack or as a constructive suggestion - your choice, do as you like...

Green Cloud

08-13-2006, 04:21 PM

I'm offended by what you said so Chris I chalenge you and Bob to a Saki match and don't come if you'r not ready.

cjurakpt

08-13-2006, 04:55 PM

done; but I suspect Bob can be a bit of a fish, so to speak, so he may out do us both...

TaiChiBob

08-14-2006, 04:23 AM

JohnnyMnemonic

08-14-2006, 11:51 AM

ya know, if you took the time to read a lot of what Bob posts, you'd actually have more to go on than your psychic friends network info - he's actually one of the most humble folks around, given his background, obvious knowledge base, etc. - and he is always very forthcoming in his posts, shares his experiences and insights in a manner that invites even the least experienced reader to participate,

TaiChiBob is a master of humbleness. That is why he rubs me the wrong way. I don't believe it. He is doing exercises for his humbleness class. I do not beleive he is sincere. I do not beleive someone can really talk like that day to day. I believe it is a forced persona. I could be wrong. I do not know him that well.

I would agree that his soft attitude makes beginners feel safe and welcomed so that they might be more likely to participate.

see, what you seem to get confused is this: no one really cares, ultimately, about what you may or may not know

If you are going to go the philosophical route, why are you alive? Why not just end it all because life on this earth is just a step to what we really are? Why waste time here when you can go directly to the next world?

- you can say anything you want, we really can't verify;

The only thing limiting your verification of what I say is your intelligence. If you are an accepting person who has little curiosity and little drive, you will not be able to verify what I say. I refuse to spoon feed people. I force them to go with me step by step through whatever I say so that not only do they learn the information that I have, they learn how to think.

If you are an intelligent and curious person who enjoys the work involved in solving a puzzle or a challenge, you will have no problem verifying what I say.

what is actually important here is the notion of community, or inter-relationships -

I cannot stand kung fu classes that are social clubs. I will not voluntarily be part of a social clique with all the time wasting power and status games. I want to go to a class, learn kung fu, then leave. Social games are a waste of the 70 or 80 short years I have on this planet.

if all we do is focus hatred onto you and defecate all over your posts (an image that you seem to be fond of repeating...what's up with that?), if this whole experience is so negative for you, then why, sir, do you keep coming back?-

You are YiLiQQuan1 aren't you? Now that I have refused to respond to your blatant hate, you are couching it in politeness and courtesy. But inside that sandwich of politeness is still the same kind of evil psychological attack.

You are a quitter. To you, if people reject someone, that someone should turn their back and walk away. I understand that kind of philosophy. I do not like it. It is not for me. I work with people until I am absolutely certain there is no hope. Some people would call that being a pest. Some people would call that being stubborn.

I call it having hope.

JohnnyMnemonic

08-14-2006, 12:09 PM

Greetings..

Chris: Humble thanks <bows>.. you post is well thought-out and on point.. Johnny might have some credibility, i wish he could, as you put it, join the community.. i dislike posting matters of negativity, i think we are all better than that, but.. i feel strongly that this forum has value and am confused whenever people see it as their personal playground..

Me too bob. That is why when I come here and see you wrapping cotton around the newbies, I am offended. Instead of filling their head with fluff that makes them go to sleep, a person could fill them with hard facts and information that will help them in their practice of kung fu. Or stimulate their thinking so that they come up with their own inspiration to improve their kung fu.

Johnny is correct in that "wisdom" often comes from unlikely sources, but.. "wisdom" also understands the value of presentation..

Right again. I could present myself as an airy fluffhead who wouldn't hurt a flea. Or I can present myself as a no nonsense person who hates wasting time and does not see the value in putting on a pretty dress and makeup before I start talking about kung fu. If a person wants someone dressed up pretty and talking fluff, they do not want to deal with me.

Johnny's tactics are not unusual, they are put out there with a condescending authority, in hopes that no one will challenge them assuming such forwardness to be born knowledge..

You wish. I have all but begged you to say something substantive. Say something that can help someone right this minute improve their kung fu practice or their knowledge of kung fu.

Instead, just like 98% of the people on the internet, you avoid the subject at hand and dive into a dissertation about my behavior and what you think are my psychological motivations. Admit it Bob. You like to talk kung fu. This is your living room where you blather on about nothing because people beleive the blather and listen to you.

I do not like speaking to you like this. I feel kind of bad. But if you are going to put out these psychological analysis you made up while you were walking from the living room to the refrigerator for another beer, I have no choice but to open people's eyes to how you really are.

but, there is a knowledge base in here that is sufficient to not be hoodwinked by such tactics..

Could you please point these people out to me? I need them. So far the people I see are all hoodwinked by your all knowing and understanding attitude. If you notice, it is you, cjblahblah, and YiLiQuan who are posting all the negativity. Most other people are watching, or they are posting innocous posts, or they post something pertinent to the discussion.

simply put it out there, speak with heart and an open mind.. i am nobody's master or answer, i come here to share and learn..

I think you come here for worship. You have been here solid for 2 or 3 years that I know of. Check my posts bob. I made about 80. About 50 of those have been in the last week. I come here when I have something to say. I don't come here looking for bright eyed followers.

Be well, brothers and sisters..

Be well brothers and sisters. Avoid the forces of darkness and evil. Always keep your head up and looking into the light. Do not allow your attention to wander to those that speak in a sedative type of cadence. They are hypnotizing you into immobility so that they can then have their way with you.

When you worship someone children, you give them your energy. You tread softly through this world on your way to enlightenment while your mind is always thinking of Bob. My flock, your energy follows your thoughts or intentions. If Bob dominates your thinking as you live your daily live, all of your energy follows your thoughts and goes straight to bob. This of course makes bob health and powerful. Instead of working to build his own energy, he has convinced all of you to voluntarily give him your energy that you worked hard for.

In closing my loved ones, I would advise that you beware smiling people who make your head feel like it is floating on a cloud. No good will come of it. In a few years, when you wake up, you will realize that you just wasted years giving your energy and power to a lazy man.

TaiChiBob

08-14-2006, 12:12 PM

Greetings..

What do you want bob? I like to give people what they want.No, Johnny.. you like to play power games..

TaiChiBob is a master of humbleness. That is why he rubs me the wrong way. I don't believe it. He is doing exercises for his humbleness class. I do not beleive he is sincere. I do not beleive someone can really talk like that day to day. I believe it is a forced persona. I could be wrong. I do not know him that well.Nothing forced, here, Johnny.. humility is just a foreign concept to you.. your belief or lack thereof has no bearing on the truth of the matter.. but, given the appropriate circumstances, my demeanor can abruptly change (it's that Yin/Yang thing)..

Good luck with this quest of yours Johnny, you have elevated trolling to a new height.. but, until you present something with substance, i must abstain, it's not even amusing anymore..

Be well..

TaiChiBob

08-14-2006, 12:29 PM

Greetings..

Well, contrary to my last post, dang, it.. Johnny, please take the time to browse the several threads where Connective Tissue Systems are thouroughly discussed (with links to sources).. Then, comment.. this is a direct assist to anyones quest to improve their Art.. I have seen you offer not one substantial or even useful hint of practice or self-improvement.. your entire persona is based on criticism and self-gratification.. really, show us something~anything!! you are great at telling people how useless i am, so.. show us something better, no deflection by critique, offer something that can be used to improve our practice of the Arts..

Be well..

YiLiQuan1

08-14-2006, 12:37 PM

If you are going to go the philosophical route, why are you alive? Why not just end it all because life on this earth is just a step to what we really are? Why waste time here when you can go directly to the next world?

If that's how you feel, same questions back at you...

The only thing limiting your verification of what I say is your intelligence.

The only thing limiting verification of what you say is actually coming out and saying something instead of the endless, amorphous, poorly worded drivel...

I force them to go with me step by step through whatever I say so that not only do they learn the information that I have, they learn how to think.

Obviously you're not "forcing" anyone to do anything, since it seems nobody is really listening to you "saying nothing."

If you are an intelligent and curious person who enjoys the work involved in solving a puzzle or a challenge, you will have no problem verifying what I say.

More of the "I'm so much better than the rest of you" business...

You are YiLiQQuan1 aren't you? Now that I have refused to respond to your blatant hate, you are couching it in politeness and courtesy. But inside that sandwich of politeness is still the same kind of evil psychological attack.

Nope. Ask the admin folks to verify the IP address... Not the same person at all. But you knew that, right Psychic Johnny?

There are no "psychological attacks," just questions asked that you refuse to answer...

You are a quitter. To you, if people reject someone, that someone should turn their back and walk away. I understand that kind of philosophy. I do not like it. It is not for me. I work with people until I am absolutely certain there is no hope. Some people would call that being a pest. Some people would call that being stubborn.

I call it having hope.

Your hope is that others will stop resisting your attempts to set yourself up as an authority "just 'cuz." Authority demands validity, validity is based on substantiation, substatiation requires evidence.

So you could always just "pony up" and put the whole matter to rest. :rolleyes:

JohnnyMnemonic

08-14-2006, 12:39 PM

I heard you bob. I just let my lunch get cold because I felt guilty for kicking you.

Please look at this picture

http://aycu28.webshots.com/image/3587/2004939326738031071_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004939326738031071)

I work in steps so everyone clearly sees what is happening. No possible source of confusion.

First question. Trivial.

Where is the left arm of the man on the left side of the picture?

TaiChiBob

08-14-2006, 01:19 PM

cjurakpt

08-14-2006, 02:24 PM

JohnnyMnemonic

08-15-2006, 12:47 AM

Greetings..

Johnny: I will humor you for the moment with the unlikely expectation that you will provide something of interest..

The person's ("man' could be an assumption) arm (assuming the person has one/not amputated) is concealed.. it could be holding a weapon, but.. based on experience i would feel safe in assuming that the person's left arm is attached to their left shoulder, and inside the attire.. Beyond that, speculation..

It is not about riddles Bob. It is about determining what you or someone else knows. I think that any person who feels they are teaching another would need to determine what that other person knows. They do not want to patronize the person by telling them things they already know.

After I asked my question, your reply could have contained everything I want to say, plus a bunch more stuff that you know. The only way I can be sure is to set up a situation where you demonstrate your knowledge.

I am a fan of Japanese culture. You and the others say what I do is "Bait and Switch". If you watch Japanese anime, cartoons for their children and adults, you will see that "Bait and Switch" is the way the Japanese do things. I can provide all kinds of examples where a child asks a question or even an adult asks a question and the person who has the answer tells them to wait. They do it on purpose to teach the meaning of patience and other lessons.

Anyways. The man is an announcer at a fight. It is highly unlikely that he is holding a weapon. I find it.....odd that you think his arm is inside of his clothes. Everyone would think he was strange if that was true.

To me, his arm is hanging down at the side of the table. His torso is leaning up against the table with his arm hanging down at his side so it is hidden both behind the other man and underneath the table.

Why does the man's arm look like that? If you look at the man on the right, he has both of his hands in front of him on the table. Why doesn't the man on the left have both of his hands in front of him on the table?

As a kung fu or Tai chi man, what would be your opinion?

JohnnyMnemonic

08-15-2006, 12:54 AM

OK, NOW I know who this guy is, so to speak - he was on the forum about a year ago, but I can't remember what his handle was - he has some strange website that has all these crazy ideas up on it - I didn't realize it was him until he started showing pictures of celebs, etc. as examples of body structure and how it can be analyzed in some bizarre way - he did the same thing then, and actually once again under another handle; I do remember that he was BANNED, but good; I'm gonna try to figure it out; in the mean time CRAZY TROLL, why don't you post us the link to your WACKO home page so everyone can see what a FREAK you really are?

guys (Bob, Yliquan), don't waste your time on this guys any more - he's a looney tunes who can't resist going back to his old ways (showing the pics), and that's what gave him away...

That is an interesting way to prevent people from learning. Wave your hands and yell real loud as if Godzilla is coming so everyone gets scared.

I would ask a question of any person who is reading this. Why would someone want to prevent you from learning something? To me, the only people that would want to stop me from learning something would be bad people. Someone who wanted to hold me back so that they could take advantage of me.

Anytime you see someone banned or a message censored or a person going to extreme lengths to stop someone else from talking, I think a thoughtful person would have to ask themselves why? Why is it so important to that person to stop what is being said?

You are an adult. You are perfectly capable of making your own decisions. You can listen and look at what is said, then decide on your own terms what it is you do and do not believe.

Why does this other person want to stop you from being your own man? What is he trying to cover up or hide?

You must remember that kung fu is about power. All of us want power. Power to defend ourselves, power to be good members of society, power to protect our families. By it's nature, power is a competitive thing. There is only so much power to go around so people challenge each other over it.

Some people believe that it is OK to do anything in order to gain power. As a kung fu man it is your job to be on the lookout for these people. If I show up here and offer you something for free, it looks like I am giving you power. If someone shows up and tries to stop me, it looks like they are trying to stop you from gaining the power I want to give you.

Think about it.

TaiChiBob

08-15-2006, 04:22 AM

JohnnyMnemonic

08-15-2006, 12:30 PM

Greetings..

Well, i was waiting for the "punch-line", but Chris beat me rto it.. yeah, the MO is too similar.. the poster of about a year ago was hideously pathetic..

Johnny: You have failed to provide any credibility.. you have failed to respond to my question in kind.. so, i will assume Chris has made a correct assumption, as was my own inclination..grab your bag of phobias and move on..

Gotcha huh bob? You got nothing. You are nothing. No knowledge. Just a bag of hot air blowing wind across the forums

It has been bothering me from the minute I read your reply. You thought the man might have been holding a weapon? Or that his arm might be inside of his clothes?

And you are a kung fu man?

A kung fu man has the ability to read the body language of another person to a high degree. If your "tai chi skill" tells you that a man with his hand at his side in a public area is holding a weapon or has his hand inside of his shirt, then your Tai Chi skill is worthless.

You are a coward. You are so afraid that you will not even participate in this simple experiment because you know for a fact that you will be exposed for the fraud you are.

Run away little man. Run away as fast as your legs can carry you.

TaiChiBob

08-15-2006, 01:07 PM

Greetings..

Without a doubt, Johnny..you are too weird for words.. i'm just guessin', but.. if the individual's arm wasn't "in the attire", it would be exposed.. now, just for giggles, try and follow that logic.. "inside the attire" means just that, inside the coat sleeve, inside the sleeve of the shirt, etc.. whew!! you're slower than evolution (which seems to have passed you by)..

You are a coward. You are so afraid that you will not even participate in this simple experiment because you know for a fact that you will be exposed for the fraud you are.My goodness, kid.. surely you can do better than that, even with your sub-human intellect you should be able to do better.. and, calling someone a "coward" can have some really strange karma attached to it, you pathetic oaf.. no, i will no longer "participate", you've had way too much time out of your cell already..

It has been bothering me from the minute I read your reply. You thought the man might have been holding a weapon? Or that his arm might be inside of his clothes?Kid, i've sat across the table from folks in that posture that most certainly had a pistol aimed at me (and vice versa).. so don't BS me.. Rethink the shirt/arm comment and quit grasping at straws..

Look, we're done.. you fail miserably on all levels.. go drool over your disturbed interpretation of pictures.. Post away, foolishly, if you choose..

YiLiQuan1

08-15-2006, 05:39 PM

Johnny, you have yet to either:

a) say anything with any actual content, or

b) respond with answers to any of the questions asked of you (e.g. who have you trained under, where, how long, what style, etc.).

Until you do so, you really shouldn't expect anyone to take your BS posts seriously. Further, your failure to deny that you are, in fact, the same bizarre member who posted, and was banned, a year ago implies that that accusation may well be factual.

You're a troll of the highest order, deluded and self-righteous. I suspect that you are the "fluff head," gleaning all your information from books and movies (as opposed to actual training).

It's quite a bit of fun to watch how you dig deeper and deeper holes for yourself... Every word you type just makes you look worse than you already do.

cjurakpt

08-16-2006, 06:05 AM

That is an interesting way to prevent people from learning. Wave your hands and yell real loud as if Godzilla is coming so everyone gets scared.

GODZILLA, GODZILLA, GODZI...nope, it's just Godzuki...

I would ask a question of any person who is reading this. Why would someone want to prevent you from learning something? To me, the only people that would want to stop me from learning something would be bad people.

that's right, it's bad, baaaaad...

[QUOTE=JohnnyMnemonic;698799]Someone who wanted to hold me back so that they could take advantage of me.

take advantage of you? like the time in the little girl's room in grade school? remember how scarred you were? (I'm also psychic, though in a rather peculiar way...)

Anytime you see someone banned or a message censored or a person going to extreme lengths to stop someone else from talking, I think a thoughtful person would have to ask themselves why? Why is it so important to that person to stop what is being said?

because it's WACKO CRAAAZY talk! :D

You are an adult. You are perfectly capable of making your own decisions. You can listen and look at what is said, then decide on your own terms what it is you do and do not believe.

first thing we agree on - so, do me and the rest of us a favor, respect that decision, give up all hope for us, and go away

Why does this other person want to stop you from being your own man? What is he trying to cover up or hide?

wait, who's stopping who from being who's man?

You must remember that kung fu is about power. All of us want power. Power to defend ourselves, power to be good members of society, power to protect our families. By it's nature, power is a competitive thing. There is only so much power to go around so people challenge each other over it.

muwahahaaaaa! POWER, MINE!!! MUWAHAHAAAAAA!!!

Some people believe that it is OK to do anything in order to gain power. As a kung fu man it is your job to be on the lookout for these people. If I show up here and offer you something for free, it looks like I am giving you power. If someone shows up and tries to stop me, it looks like they are trying to stop you from gaining the power I want to give you.

ok, but what if I reject the offer you of power you make? what if I am afraid of the power?:eek: maybe I am worried that it will corrupt me and taint me and pull me over to the dark side like all those other people who didn't listen to you and wouldn't drink the Kool Aid?

Think about it.

thought about it...you're a lunatic; or a very creative 12 year-old on his way to being a lunatic...

P.S. - Bob, I tried finding who this guy was looking back on some old threads, as he had a link to his website with all thr crazy stuff; notice he didn't even address that, just blubbered about being unfairly banned (in theory, of course); BTW, lot's of chuckles with your replies to him, you old fraudulant wind-bag (why don't you go play with evil nasty YiLiQuan and leave us good folks alone?); amyway, I'm bored w/this guy...