aikido has to be the worst style

[Dragon Warrior]

is it true that there is no striking in aikido?
if that is true then aikido has to be the worst style to train in. How can you defend yourself if you dont even know how to throw a proper punch.

I do think that it would be valuble to learn aikido to add to your art, but aikido by itself doesnt make much sense.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Chang Style Novice]

Punching someone isn't a self-defense technique. Stopping someone from punching you is a self defense technique. I've messed around with some aikidoka, and they can definitely defend themselves.

If you're just spouting off second hand knowledge without any experience, you probably ought to bite your tongue and think about what you're doing.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Dragon Warrior]

i dont know
i met some kid the other day, and from what he was showing me, aikido does not seem to have the tools to make a good fighter. Of course he never claimed it did, but he was confident in his abilities to defend himself. I was so tempted to just throw some REAL punches at him, just to show him that the theories he believes in are harder to pull off than he thinks.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[yenhoi]

There are several strikes in aikido...

'atemi' is a very important part of applying many aikido techniques.

There is at least 1 basic atemi and If I recall correctly, several intermediate and advanced type of atemi.

Although most aikido persons would rather throw and lock you, and then talk trash in your ear while your on the ground.

etc

strike!

[shaolinboxer]

You should find out for yourself.

Find a good aikidoka (there are many) and "throw punches". I did, and now I study aikido.

It is not true that aikido does not have any strikes, in the same way that it is not true that aikido has no neck breaks, arm bars, or other more jiujitsu like techniques. They have been converted into safer meathods of application in practice, but they are still present.

Glad you think aikido doesn't work. Many of the best aikidoka thought the same.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Godzilla]

At first it’s very choreographed. The higher ranking students were much more skilled than the beginners like me. It was very hands on. Lots of rolling around and slapping the matt. Lots of wristlocks and arm bars. Very little striking and typically after your opponent was already down and ready to submit.

There were some great benefits though. Moving with the attack and accepting it gracefully was difficult but when done properly, looked and felt great! You can feel how helpless your opponent is when you do the techniques correctly.

Just wasn’t my cup of tea. I prefer Chin Na with my TKD.

Godzilla

[Dragon Warrior]

it seems like you are talking about aikijujitsu. I know that sysem has strikes and practical technique. But from what i've heard aikido has no strikes, breaks or anything like that. It's theory is to redirect your opponents energy to defend yourself without doing harm to your opponent. I guess what i have heard is wrong?

Godzilla
i agree that it would be a good art to crosstrain in.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[JWTAYLOR]

Well, like many martial arts, Aikido has some good and a hell of allot of bad instructors and practitioners.

My only "beef" with Aikido is it's ridiculous learning curve. I have often found a 5 year Aikidoka as a worse fighter than someone with no training. But the 10 year Aikidoka (assuming he's in a good school and does some real Randori) are usually very competent in self defense.

As far as striking, the idea that Aikido has no striking seems very counter to the whole idea of Aikido to me. There are definately times that an Aikidoka will strike a nerve on the arm, shoulder, or strike a chest or forehead to complete a throw.

I've met a couple of good, practical Aikidoka. But the vast majority of the ones I've found seem to be sadly confused. Especially the ones that depend on "pain compliance" to make their techniques work. But beware of the ones who have watermellons for wrists.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Yuen]

Well aren't all martial arts choreographed? Exept muay thai or something like that which is all fighting. Karate has in the very beginning the sambon gumites while kung fu has too, for example sam saos. Self-defense needs choreography to be able to intercept the fist the correct way. By practicing choreographed movements, one knows the movements in a real situation and knows how to use them properly.

[shaolinboxer]

Aikido may be used in a meathod similar to aikijujitsu.

Aikido itself reflects a desire in the practitioner to disable an attacker without causing any serious damage (hence the "lack of strikes"). The pratictioner does not want to use force to apply technique, but rather the force or intent of this opponent draws the technique from him/her. So, instead of seeking the fastest most effective way of learning to apply techniques, the aikidoka must keep these principals in mind and work towards that goal...and the ridiculously long learning curve is derived, as least partially, from the burden of the general philosophy.

Aikido is an art born from philosophy as much as it is from self defense. If you are looking for straight combat, you may not find it satifying. As the soke of Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu once said, the difference bewteen aikijujitsu (and other combat oriented arts) and aikido is that aikijujitsu is a system of effective combative techniques that leads to philosophical understanding of self and personal development, whle aikido is an art of philosophical understanding and personal development that leads to effective combat techniques.

"She ain't got no muscles in her teeth."
- Cat

[Dragon Warrior]

nicely put

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Sharky]

japanese jujitsu the way it was taught to me said that they did not teach any strikes. they did teach throws and locks (breaks)

i thought it was a bit dumb. but then what do i know.

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yoshinkan Aikido utilizes strikes in its entries, and for 'atemi'. But it is not inherently a striking art.

I tend to agree with JWT's assesment.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[MonkeySlap Too]

"What is the main tenet of Aikido?"

"We are superior to everybody else."

To get it, you need to be watching an Aikido guy try to fumble his way through a BaGua or Xing Yi class, and listen to the justifications about his understanding of 'internal'.

Just a behavorial observation.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Braden]

There are strikes in aikido, and there are lots and LOTS of breaks.

The idea that aikido has evolved to deal with attackers without hurting them is a philosophy of a limited number of schools of aikido - not of aikido itself.

Aikido was originally designed to be extremely brutal. Some organizations (notably the Yoshinkan) have kept this training alive.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think Akido was meant to disable the practitioners without hurting them seriously. Akido's ok, from what my friend who took it says it is heavy into the budo aspect of JMA and that it's main focus is to build the proper character through the training. Similar to old Shaolin training becoming a good fighter is an extra. The lack of strikes in JMA grappling arts could be due to the fact that swords were heavily used and the unarmed techniques were a backup in case you possibly lost your weapon so you could recover. Okinawa arts are heavy with striking because the lack of weapons they had but this is just my guess based on my limited knowledge of JMA.

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[MaFuYee]

come on! - what's wrong with all of you!
aikido is not about self defense/fighting.
(i don't care what steven segal says/thinks.)
it's about 'harmonizing', and making all lovey dovey like; dontchaknow.

why do people have such a hard time understanding that?

... and come on... bagua is not a martial art either. - it's just a cultic ritual meditation / trance practice that involves walking around in a circle. - like the whirling dervishes, or the moonies or the faulun dafa groups with their standing practices.

get a grip, people...

sheesh! - i should go around giving seminars on the martial applications of the macarena!

Why would you say that I am insane? I wouldn't say that I've lost my mind simply because I've heard the voices and seen the godless things moving in the woods. If anything, I think more clearly now than ever before. - Ash

[Kevin73]

Aikido has strikes in it. Go and get a copy of Ueshiba's book "Budo" and look through the pictures, you will see him striking many pressure points with a middle knuckle fist before doing the throw or lock.

Aikido used to be very effective, but there was a top instructor under Ueshiba who thought that it should JUST be a vehicle for harmony and made all the techniques all lovely dovey with no atemi. I studied (for a very short time) under an instructor who taught pressure points and atemi in his aikido, but some of his other blackbelts would tell you that it wasn't aikido-like. So even in the same schools opinions differ on this matter. This same instructor got one of his students because the guy was a street fighter and went in all the area dojos and challenged the instructors, he wanted to learn from someone who couldn't beat him, and after beating a bunch of the other instructors he lost to the aikido master.

But, I agree with what JWT said. It takes a REALLY long time to become good enough to use it right for the street.

"God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

[Grappling-Insanity]

I've only seen one good Aikido fighter ever. He was VERY good IMO, he was also the instructor at the school I visited. Most of his students on the other hand were pretty clueless when it came to fighting. Any time I threw a REAL punch they had no idea what to do.

[Dragon Warrior]

was the only style he studied aikido?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[shaolinboxer]

It is rapidly becoming obvious what techniques I will want to learn in the future.

[brucelee2]

Lyle,

What do you mean by last post?( It is rapidly becoming clear....) I didn't understand

Go forward, my son, and
be like unto a torch
upon the darkness. Thou
are stripped now, of all
that was before. Look
not to thy fellow men
for guidance or
countenance- they canst
advise you no longer.
Thou shalt be as dust
now, and dust shall be
upon the tongues of thy
enemy. Verily, thou
shalt herald the coming
of the new age upon
man."

[Chris McKinley]

MaFuYee, I would like to cordially invite you to attend one of my classes in Baguazhang the next time you're in the Oklahoma City/Norman area of Oklahoma (you'll probably have to lose a bet or something to have reason to come here, I realize).

This is not in any way meant to be an insinuation of threat or challenge; I don't do challenge matches. If you are sincere in your belief regarding Bagua, and not just flaming, I would be happy to demonstrate some of the applications of my art to you. It is my opinion that you are at least incorrect in your assessment and probably ignorant of what Baguazhang is. I would appreciate the opportunity to either provide you with education and/or change your mind, whichever is applicable.

BTW, your profile mentions your art of choice as Lo Chi Chuan. As I am unfamiliar with that particular name, would you mind providing a description of your art and especially, its origins, both philosophically and in terms of combative techniques? Your time is appreciated. :)

[Stumblefist]

"I think Akido was meant to disable the practitioners without hurting them seriously."

I practise Yoshinkan. My 6th dan instructor once confidentally told me "Aikido is murder"! We are known as the "hard-hitting style" Mostly it's a simultaneous block and strike for an attack, or a sidestep entering and atemi strike to the vitals, like clotheslining the throat and dumping the attacker on his head going backward.

Another instructor said: "They don't block, that's it, game over", no need to throw, no fancy stuff. If it's just a stun you can break wrist, arm, collarbone, back, finger, just one or underline multiple choices : in one move.

Sure in practice, Nage (technique person) tries not to hurt Uke (attacker) and Uke spends his energy protecting himself.
Aikido IS about control. But that control is designed to hurt people very viciously. It's wonderful just to slip grabs in social situations or lock up an out of control person, but in serious street defence it's not likely.

Think about it. It takes years and levels of graded skill increments for uke (the attacker in practice) to learn how not to be hurt when he is thrown. An inexperienced person has no hope. He will be wrecked. Every Uke to the Great Sensei Shioda, thought they were taking their life in their hands when they played uke to him. Some got wrecked even at that level.

Also about how "gentle" Aikido practice is? Well we consider the 3 browns before black as the color of the body bruising. Brown and above is physical purgatory. The senseis expect you to really toughen up starting this period and they don't take it easy on you.

[straight blast]

I've got a friend who studies Aikido. He's on the brown belt before black. I know that sounds silly, but they have a couple of them I think. Anyway, he's teaching his kids Aikido. Not because it's a super MA or anything, not because it teaches the way (which I believe it does teach part of the way), but simply because if they get in a fight in school and win it, they can't have been the ones to throw the 1st punch!!!

Plus he figures that if they don't know how to attack, they probably won't.
Good idea?

"Through strength, learn gentleness. Through gentleness, strength will prevail"

[Stumblefist]

I heard an 8th dan Sensei tell his kenshu class: "If i think i will be attacked i will hit".
(not wait).
Aikido has many techniques in which Nage ( the technique doer) strikes first, then when uke blocks, Nage unbalances him, joint locks him, throws him and leaves a crumbled mess. :)
(Anyway don't tell that kids' father ;) )

Well, i know many teachers told me they like Aikido, they can hurt, punish, silence and control the kids without LEAVING ANY MARKS!!!! They say Aikido is a gift from Heaven!! :D :D

[Merryprankster]

Another instructor said: "They don't block, that's it, game over", no need to throw, no fancy stuff. If it's just a stun you can break wrist, arm, collarbone, back, finger, just one or underline multiple choices : in one move.

It's statements like that that give Martial Artists and Martial Arts a bad name. How about if you miss? What if it DOESN'T WORK?

I'm not denying effectiveness, I'm denying this thought of the one strike kill. Preposterous. Can it happen? YES. Should you rely on it? Not if you value your life.

[Stumblefist]

Hey Merryprankster, i think you misunderstand the technique.
What if you miss? Listen he grabs your wrist (for instance). so you simultaneously shift, extend your grabbed hand, shift your body and backfist to his nose. Now if you can't find his nose, maybe you are blind, ok?
However if you do happen to find it and he doesn't block, he will probably be dropped or at least stunned and let go. If he blocks (the expected response) the situation converts into unbalancing, grappling, joint-locking and throwing.
There are many more. If it was a sidestrike, you might be blocking with one hand and backfisting to the nose bridge, or upper-cuttig with the other.
It's not a one strike kill. It can be a stun or a knockdown or a set-up.
Best you look at some videos, i can't do so many words.

[jameswebsteruk]

Good book to read is "Angry White Pyjamas", (cant remember the author) about an english language schoolteacher who decides, for some stupid reason, to undergo the Japanese Riot Police Aikido training course.

It is brutal. The descriptions of the bruises, and the conditioning are fascinating. Strikes are certainly a part of that curriculum, but they seemed to be forearm smashes, if I remember correctly.

The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[lowsweep]

It's not helping my ego any, I just got my arse handed to me by an aikido guy today....He surprised the hell outta me, never seen somebody who was so good at not being hit.

Take the pebble
from my hand

"You ain't the only one
who knows some sh*t"

[shinwa]

haha lowsweep. What happened?

[Grappling-Insanity]

Dragon,
I cant really remember the name. But it did start with a Y. Hope that makes a little bit of sense.

[omegapoint]

I ordered that Seagal video "Aikido: A Path Beyond..." or whatever it's called on Stevie's web site and never received a **** thing! After 5 months I've given up. I wanted to see his training in Japan under that elf dude O-Sensei Ueshi...Ueshiba, or whatever, and was anticipating some old school MAs stuff.

I guess they saw my password was "MatsumuraHakutsuru" and got scared! They have a dojo on Okinawa where they can steal Tuite techs from the dudes left around to teach it, then pass it off as Aikido! I dunno, maybe I'm bitter at the money-grubbing fat boy, but for a man of his stature to not know what is going in his benevolent corporation is just unfathomable to me!

Aikido now sucks forever to me, and IMHO if you want to learn REAL grappling learn Judo or BJJ. Forget all that mind control scheister****t! Seagal is robbin' from the poor and giving to the rich! Another wolf in sheeps clothing... Where's the wolfhounds???

[DragonzRage]

The way I see it, the mere fact that Steven Seagal practices aikido is more than reason enough to hate the entire friggin' style :D

[Kristoffer]

lol :D ... :rolleyes:

on Aikido:
I think that if you want to be a good fighter very quickly, its wrong for you. I think it is an beautiful MA!! I have never trained it but I think that it would be cool to add some of it to my Kung Fu.Shuai Shiao is a great part of my Kung Fu, u could say that we spend 60 /40 (Kung Fu / SS). But Aikido is much different from Shuai Shiao I think. It is always good to have something different up your sleeves when fighting. it gives an element of surprise too.

Aikido cross-trained with Judo would be cool I think...Hmmm what's your oppinion on this mix

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"