The detriment of kung fu form vs. partner work....

[Fu-Pow]

It's come to my attention lately that the detriment of kung fu is the lack of partner work to the exclusion of forms practice. Why do you think this is? What can be done about it?

We are producing generations of performers, not fighters.

Just about every kung fu technique can be practiced in some kind of partner drill from striking to joint locking. Not all can be practiced at significant speed but even slow practice is useful.

Taiji has pushhands practice which depending on the teacher can be very good.

But I think that this is the reason that "sport" fighters have an advantage. They have clearly established methods for practicing techniques with a living breathing partner in front of them. It is NOT that the techniques themselves are any better.

When you get into weapons the difficulty of practicing with a partner with any semblance of realism becomes greater.

How can we practice these things...ideas?

FP

[BigPandaBear]

Check out Daidojuku, that style has introduced a high level of competition and fighting prowess while maintaining a very traditional flavor. Heck, MMA types look at Daidojuku and are only impressed by it. Some even consider it "the real karate".

I definitely think that TCMAs can learn a lot from modern JMAs like Daidojuku, Judo, and Kyokushin. The key would be to reintroduce some level of full-contact competition to TCMAs. For this, you could completely copy Daidojuku's methods which allow a lot of "dirty" fighting techniques in a sportive atmosphere, yet maintains a high level of fighting prowess, tradition, and skill.

Secondly TCMAs can take the Kano approach; Dissect the techniques of the various TCMA schools and determine which techniques are useful, and what techniques aren't useful. Use modern science as your basis, and train those techniques to the point where they are efficient and can be constantly trained in a controlled environment.

Lastly restructure the forms to include only the techniques that are too dangerous/obsolete to be trained in the kwoon on a regular basis. That can include classical weapon forms, etc. You can look at Judo to see how dangerous/illegal techniques can be preserved even in a modern MAs.

[neilhytholt]

And when I say the same thing, Fu Pow puts me on his ignore list.

You guys are extremely hypocritical.

[MasterKiller]

Welcome to 1996.

[Royal Dragon]

It's not "What" he said, it's "How" he says it.

Seriously Neil, you are well on your way to inadvertantly pi$$ing off more people than me....in a shorter time...

[Fu-Pow]

Welcome to 1996.

Let's just say you're not the only one who left a teacher who only wanted to do forms. ;)

[Wood Dragon]

I definitely think that TCMAs can learn a lot from modern JMAs like Daidojuku, Judo, and Kyokushin. The key would be to reintroduce some level of full-contact competition to TCMAs. For this, you could completely copy Daidojuku's methods which allow a lot of "dirty" fighting techniques in a sportive atmosphere, yet maintains a high level of fighting prowess, tradition, and skill.

Secondly TCMAs can take the Kano approach; Dissect the techniques of the various TCMA schools and determine which techniques are useful, and what techniques aren't useful. Use modern science as your basis, and train those techniques to the point where they are efficient and can be constantly trained in a controlled environment.

Lastly restructure the forms to include only the techniques that are too dangerous/obsolete to be trained in the kwoon on a regular basis. That can include classical weapon forms, etc. You can look at Judo to see how dangerous/illegal techniques can be preserved even in a modern MAs.

Agreed.

50% Kihon (technique and drills)
40% Sparring (full contact, with/without gear)
10% Kata

That's about how training breaks down in Daido Juku and Kyokushin.

Also: No fatties. Hit the track and Stairmaster.

[Ben Gash]

Nice to see an inclusive approach to martial arts there ;)
The framework for success has always been there, it's just for some reason it's fallen by the wayside in the last 20 years or so. My Sifu always emphasises sticky hands and sparring (and our sticky hands isn't far off sparring anyway, and develops naturally into it), and it's heavy contact, bareknuckle, knees elbows and throws allowed. Consequently my classmates are all seriously tough fighters, and many of them are successful competitors. HOWEVER, everyone would also be guaranteed a top 3 finish in any Chinese forms division (and indeed many of them are national champions).
I think it's just a case of finding the right balance. I place equal importance on basics, forms and partner work in my classes, and I feel I get good results.
(of course it doesn't hurt that my top guys all do my San Shou class as well)

[Ben Gash]

OK, I just checked out dome daidojuku fights, and they look like my Kung Fu sparring sessions :cool:

[HearWa]

OK, I just checked out dome daidojuku fights, and they look like my Kung Fu sparring sessions :cool:
Well do kung fu a favor and put a few videos up on youtube of you guys sparring/competing!

[Ben Gash]

My students are all pretty junior. When they're a bit more experienced and have a bit more flavour then I'll put some stuff out there.

[MasterKiller]

Let's just say you're not the only one who left a teacher who only wanted to do forms. ;)

I say this a lot, but once I started working out with MMA, my Kung Fu got better. I saw more applications in my forms, and I am pretty decent at applying a lot of them now. I started full-time MMA about 18 months ago, and it has completely changed my outlook on how to train kung fu to make it work.

Kung Fu has lots of good things you won't see in an MMA class. I have used Pheonix Eye Fists, for example, against my opponents inner thighs to open up his half-guard.

But while you can find just about every technique known to man in a kung fu form somewhere, if you aren't training it properly, you aren't going to be able to use it properly.

I 've been training a friend for about two years, 2 hours every Saturday. I use the training methods I learned in MMA with him, and with 2 years of training, 1 day a week, he has beat some of my kung fu brothers who practiced 4 to 5 days a week for years. He hasn't beaten all of them, mind you, but if he trained 3 days a week and watched his diet more closely I think he would have a decent shot at it. My point is, he became much better, much faster, than most CMA stylist would like to believe. I know for sure he is better than I was when I was at the 2-year mark.

[David Jamieson]

Um, what kungfu style doesn't include free form sparring to integrate the stylistic hallmarks into the fighting performance?

I wouldn't blanket all chinese martial arts under the mma perspective banner which lumps all cma into forms factories apparently.

Ultimately, I don't think it's really important because the perspective on it is incorrect.

CMA practice has always for me, whereever I study included the following

Basics - Strength and endurance development, calesthenics external devices
Form -What ever the forms are for the style
Force feedback - using the extrapolated techniques in bag work, mitts, pads, kick-shield.
Drills -either single extrapolations or attacks and defenses with a partner
Sanda - free sparring adjusting intensity according to attributes and skills of players

aside from this are more esoteric practices which will vary from teacher to teacher but usually include qigongs, meditation sometimes yoga, sometimes alternate inclusions like pilates and so on.

I think a lot of this perspective simply comes from those who would degrade tcma and show their preference for mma strictly, which frankly is based on probably not recievinbg training instruction in tcma or instead getting shoddy training in it from someone who likely shouldn't be training others in it.

typically, fight training is fight training and methods may vary, but results will be results.

anyway, i'll stick to the way I do it and pick up what I can from anywhere really. I have no qualms with borrowing stuff from anywhere as long as it produces results.

[MasterKiller]

But to answer your question, how do make it better?

My MMA class is something like this:

15 minutes warm-ups and stretching.

30 minutes of instruction and "walking through" the techniques being discussed with a partner

30 minutes of sparring.


Sometimes it's "situational" where I start in Position A and have to move to Submission C while my opponent has a similar gameplan to defend and/or change postition.

Sometimes it's free form where we start standing, but don't kick or punch. Go for the throw/takedown, work for submission, repeat for 5 minutes....

Sometimes it's San Shou rules (yeah, in MMA) boxing rounds with 14oz gloves, shin pads, etc...

Sometimes it's medium contact with the 4oz gloves and no protection.

15 minutes of combat conditioning -- sprints, etc..

[David Jamieson]

mk- that sounds like a kungfu class the 30 minute walkthrough would be drills or forms practice i guess with corrections, but the rest is same same more or less to many cma curriculums.

[MasterKiller]

mk- that sounds like a kungfu class the 30 minute walkthrough would be drills or forms practice i guess with corrections, but the rest is same same more or less to many cma curriculums.

The difference is the drills are always with a partner.

The reason my Saturday class is longer is I add 30 minutes of kung fu forms training, but try to follow the rest of the guidelines I listed above.

[Fu-Pow]

For disbelievers here's the kind of **** I'm talking about:

Making a Form-Centric School Work

Part One
by Pablo Zamora

I have been running traditional Kung-Fu schools since 1984. I teach a very traditional Chinese Kung-Fu system known as Wah Lum Tam-Tui Northern Praying Mantis System. It has a rich history going back to Northern China. My Sifu is very well known and has created a name for the system all over the world. He is a 6th generation lineage of this system and that makes me 7th. I don't say this to impress you, but to impress upon you that traditional schools that teach in the traditional way can be successful.

I hear many Kung-Fu school owners complain that they can't become very successful because they teach a traditional style. That saddens me because I know it can work. The style that you teach has very little to do with your schools success, it's how you teach it and how you run your school that makes the difference.

My schools focus is on forms training. The curriculum, like many traditional Chinese styles, revolves around forms. Teaching forms is challenging and it is not the easiest way to run a martial arts school.

The way I see it is, If I am going to teach the art that I love, I will do it the way it was meant to be taught and I will make it work. There are some changes that you want to make. You might have to soften up the curriculum at the start. Forms can be broken down into smaller forms. We have five short forms that are called the Five Basic Exercises. These range from 15-25 moves. They are easy to learn and exciting to practice.

We have three different levels–Basic, Intermediate and Advanced. Basic class is a class to teach structure. We teach a student how to be a Kung Fu student. We focus more on preparing them to become a good Kung-Fu student. It's more a probationary class and sometimes we will refer to it as that.

Once you are recommended to become part of the Black Sash or Masters Club program, then you are out of probation and into the inner core of the student body. No forms are taught in basic. We teach them the basic stances, blocks, punches and kicks. Focus is placed on the respect and discipline that we expect from a Kung-Fu student.

Our Intermediate and advanced classes are reserved to Black Sash Club and Master Club members. These classes do revolve around forms training. The Wah Lum forms are challenging and require a high level of flexibility, stamina, strength and overall fitness. This puts great importance into the warm up segment of the class. We do use many traditional ways of preparing the body. The exercises are the traditional exercises of our system. We do modify them for safety and the conditioning level of the student.

I have used the rotating curriculum in the past. However, it didn’t work well for our school. Why? If you rotate the forms, it's tough to drill all the forms of that level in every class.

Let me break it down; Lets talk about Intermediate class. There will be three sash levels in this class (blue, purple and green). They will all be training together. After a 20-minute warm up, we begin forms. There are three short sets that cover eight stances, eight punches and eight kicks. Then, five short sets of 15-20 moves. Then we have three longer forms. This pretty much covers the forms in that class.

As a student gets to a form or section of class that he has not been taught yet, he steps off the floor into a designated area and practices his last form until and an assistant instructor checks his last form and, if ok, will teach three-five more moves. The goal of the students is to complete the entire forms class without having to step off the main floor.

The same forms are covered every single class so it’s important to be able to keep the excitement level high. Once a student has reached the last form and has shown proficiency in it (usually six months). They are invited to the Advanced class.

The advanced class is run the same way as the Intermediate, but we add four more forms to the training and intensity goes up. Weapon forms are also introduced in this level. Weapons in Wah Lum are challenging and must be taught on a one on one. For this reason we have created 10-18 move weapons forms which are taught in seminars. If a student wants to learn the traditional weapon forms of our system, we do sell private lesson packages for each weapon. The same goes for the more advanced empty hand forms.

The focus of the class and the schools is not necessarily which color of sash one is wearing, but which form a student is in or working on. The goal of each student is to stay in the training floor for the entire segment. This shows great accomplishment.

We do have 10 minutes at the end of every class called the High Energy segment. Here we use kick shields, focus pads and other striking equipment to sharpen the picks and punches and to get the students lo leave the class on a high note.

We do not focus on self-defense on the regular class. We have a special class called FIST that teaches the students effective, easy to learn self-defense and street survival skills. We realize that traditional Kung-fu is not the best road to learning self-defense. It requires time and patience, along with hard training. But, we also realize that it is our duty to prepare students for violence if it ever occurs.

You could say our schools mix tradition and modern training, but in a separate class. Israeli Self-Defense worked well for us. They are easy to learn and to apply, and prepare the student for the fight and flight response that occurs in all violent situations. It's not the techniques that are taught in these programs, it's the kind of training to prepare the student for the real situation.

I hope this article has opened up your mind and has gotten you to have more faith in your traditional forms.
Hey! Traditional forms has survived the ravages of time in creating warriors and masters. Why shouldn't it work now? Faith and a bit of common sense, along with some fundamental business like MATA offers will make all the difference in the world.

[Ben Gash]

That saddens me more than you can know :(

[Chief Fox]

Training partners aren't always available so what do you do?

You build a dummy.

build a wooden dummy: http://www.mccarriedesign.com/wooden_dummy/

Build a grappling dummy: http://www.geocities.com/fightraining/grappled2

Practice your forms, take those techniques and drill them on the dummy, drill them with a heavy bag. Drill them with a live opponent.

[BigPandaBear]

Until full-contact competition is brought into TMAs like Kung Fu, they're going to continue to decline. That's really all there is to it.

[Reggie1]

Until full-contact competition is brought into TMAs like Kung Fu, they're going to continue to decline. That's really all there is to it.There's all kinds of full-contact competition for TMA's like kung fu--San Shou, San Da, etc. It's just not emphasized in schools.

I think it's the training methods more than anything. I hate to sound like a cliche, but until 'aliveness' is restored to the TMA's like kung fu, then they will continue to decline. It's not like aliveness has been missing from most TMA's that long. I'm just speaking about America, but most people you run across that trained in the period from the 50s - 80s have all kinds of 'war stories' about how hellacious the training used to be. Lots of hard-contact free sparring, etc. In today's society most people aren't willing to put in the sacrifice required to learn all of the intricacies of many of the CMA's and take the banging required to become a proficient fighter.

[neilhytholt]

It's just the influence of the Communists. CMA used to have sparring in the U.S. until the Communists started coming over, and few of them did sparring because it was banned in China for many years. They're the ones that tell you sparring and applications don't matter.

[Fu-Pow]

What really gets my goat is how many people leave a tournament once the sparring starts. Wouldn't you think that would draw the biggest crowd?

[Fu-Pow]

until 'aliveness' is restored to the TMA's like kung fu, then they will continue to decline.

Aliveness=training with a LIVE partner.

[neilhytholt]

So do it, Fu Pow, put the $$$ where your mouth is.

You have a school, allow people from other styles to come and work with your students.

Oh, I forgot, I'm on IGNORE even though I was the one who originally posted this topic.

[Wood Dragon]

What really gets my goat is how many people leave a tournament once the sparring starts. Wouldn't you think that would draw the biggest crowd?


Depends.

You can have sparring, even full-contact, that is worthless and proves nothing re:application of skill. Way too much kickboxing-style performances, where the participants stay at long range as much as possible.

Bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz5O0wy8Lx8

Good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbiyEQw-mnc&mode=related&search=

Optimal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W32CbEU5NOk

Say what you like about us, Daido Juku and Kyokushin guys tend to meet in the center of the mat, go toe to toe, and stay there until someone goes down. Much like in a real encounter.

Note: Go with the open-fist gloves, like Daido Juku does. It helps. A lot.

[BigPandaBear]

San da and San Shou is like wushu kickboxing. I'm talking about full-contact stuff utilizing the unique styles of kung fu.

I think part of the problem here is that the only modernization that has taken place with TCMAs has been from the communist government and Bruce Lee, whereas TJMAs have been modernized throughout the last 100 years by a lot of different people.

[The Xia]

I wouldn't say that TCMA needs modernization. The old training methods worked. Forms were done (and forms aren't useless). However, forms were not what was exclusively done. They did lots of sparring, conditioning, and drilling. Many TCMA teachers don't do this as much, in order to appeal to a larger market. Some still do these things the old way though.

[Wood Dragon]

San da and San Shou is like wushu kickboxing. I'm talking about full-contact stuff utilizing the unique styles of kung fu.



San Da is progress.

They need to push the envelope more, but it's a lot better than the WTF and JKA rules.

They can throw on as much gear as they want (and head/face protection is a must, IMO), just not on the hands and feet. For hands, cloth protectors (fingerless) are all you need.

Like so:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/df/W2006_03.jpg

[BigPandaBear]

I wouldn't say that TCMA needs modernization. The old training methods worked. Forms were done (and forms aren't useless). However, forms were not what was exclusively done. They did lots of sparring, conditioning, and drilling. Many TCMA teachers don't do this as much, in order to appeal to a larger market. Some still do these things the old way though.

"Worked" is the key word. The traditional way isn't always the right way.

And last I checked, the harder forms of karate are pretty popular. No reason why TCMA schools can't be just as tough as Kyokushin and its derivatives.

[Reggie1]

"Worked" is the key word. The traditional way isn't always the right way.

And last I checked, the harder forms of karate are pretty popular. No reason why TCMA schools can't be just as tough as Kyokushin and its derivatives.I couldn't agree more. It's not that hard. Take your standard 1.5 hour class and break it up like this:

First 30 minutes: warm up with forms then stretch
Second 30 minutes: Drills involving progressive resistance. Teach a technique from the form you were working on. Then drill it. Start with no resistance, then light, then medium, etc. If it's a strike, use pads so you can feel the resistance. If it's a takedown / lock / then work it with a partner.
Last 30 minutes: Sparring.

You could even split the last 30 minutes and do 15 minutes of sparring and 15 minutes of forms as a cool down.

I think many places get more off on step 2 than step 3. punching and kicking air in a line for 30 minutes is worse than getting 15 minutes punching and kicking on some pads or a bag. It's so easy to partner people up and have them work pads with each other rather than have them just punch in air, and it really doesn't change anything in your curriculum.

[BigPandaBear]

I couldn't agree more. It's not that hard. Take your standard 1.5 hour class and break it up like this:

First 30 minutes: warm up with forms then stretch
Second 30 minutes: Drills involving progressive resistance. Teach a technique from the form you were working on. Then drill it. Start with no resistance, then light, then medium, etc. If it's a strike, use pads so you can feel the resistance. If it's a takedown / lock / then work it with a partner.
Last 30 minutes: Sparring.

You could even split the last 30 minutes and do 15 minutes of sparring and 15 minutes of forms as a cool down.

I think many places get more off on step 2 than step 3. punching and kicking air in a line for 30 minutes is worse than getting 15 minutes punching and kicking on some pads or a bag. It's so easy to partner people up and have them work pads with each other rather than have them just punch in air, and it really doesn't change anything in your curriculum.

Exactly. I also think cross-school full contact competitions would benefit TCMAs as well. They have it for forms and point sparring, why not for all out full contact competiton? It would definitely raise the overall level of fighting ability, and more easily weed out the fakes and the frauds. Not that they would make much money anyway, since people would tend to flow into the schools that have the better fighters by default.

[LeeCasebolt]

Depends.

You can have sparring, even full-contact, that is worthless and proves nothing re:application of skill. Way too much kickboxing-style performances, where the participants stay at long range as much as possible.

Bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz5O0wy8Lx8

Good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbiyEQw-mnc&mode=related&search=

Optimal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W32CbEU5NOk



This'd be a more valid comparison if the first weren't fairly light gym sparring while the next two obviously high level competition.

Of course, you could always come play MMA.

[Wood Dragon]

Of course, you could always come play MMA.

Daido Juku more than covers it, for me.

Best of all worlds, as we get to fight MT and BJJ guys on a regular basis. They both do pretty well, and provide the variety a well-rounded fighter needs.

Re: 1st video. Was meant as a rule-of-thumb example. Sparring like that is next to useless, unless you are training for NASKA-style kickboxing competitions. Throwing a couple of techniques from long range, then breaking contact and moving away, is not how it goes down in real life.

Illustrated rule: if it looks like that 1st video, it's bad.

[auntie]

[ In today's society most people aren't willing to put in the sacrifice required to learn all of the intricacies of many of the CMA's and take the banging required to become a proficient fighter.]


You're right about that.
My Sifu has tried several times to introduce sparring into the main kung fu classses, the problem is that a large percentage (and not just the women either)just don't want to do it and if he persists they quit (and if too many people quit the club won't be viable). So instead there are two classes a week for sparring and the other classes are for forms practice (which includes two man forms.
A lot of people just do kung fu for the art or for health; they don't want the bruises.
I wasn't interested in sparring for years until I realised that it was the only way to really understand the forms and to improve. I still don't enjoy it (especially not the occasional visit to casualty afterwards; improvement is a long time arriving), but I do it anyway.

Another risk clubs run if they have lots of sparring is being sued after an injury.
Injuries happen in sparring, but in today's compensation culture even though we're all insured there's always the worry that someone will sue.

[Reggie1]

You're right about that.
My Sifu has tried several times to introduce sparring into the main kung fu classses, the problem is that a large percentage (and not just the women either)just don't want to do it and if he persists they quit (and if too many people quit the club won't be viable). So instead there are two classes a week for sparring and the other classes are for forms practice (which includes two man forms.
A lot of people just do kung fu for the art or for health; they don't want the bruises.That's kind of how my 7* mantis classes were. Most people wouldn't touch hard-contact sparring. It was offered, though, to people who were interested.

I'm actually OK with schools that are this way. I think it's fine, as long as the teacher is honest with his students. I still have the utmost respect for my 7* sifu because he was honest with his students. In the first few months, he made it 100% clear that we should be practicing all our techniques against a heavy bag (including weapons) so we know what it's like to hit something with the technique. He also told us that if we pull our punches it will build up bad habits.

[lianweizhi]

There's been quite a few threads about this kind of thing lately. At my CLF school, there were a few people who were pretty keen on sparring, and we did basically everything I saw in that "optimal" video, with the exception of the submission holds, albeit with 12 ounce gloves, as our sparring was more sanshou oriented.

My school was open for 6 days a week, with only 2 of those days being form days. On form days, we would warm up for 15 minutes (including going over basic forms), then work on the form we were learning for 15 minutes, then go into about 5 minutes of three star before working applications for the rest of the hour.

One of the days was a "bag day", where we would warm up for 20 minutes (with light calisthenics - 120 pushups, jogging, crunches, squat jumps, etc) and then kick bags for the next 15 (low/high round, side primarily) and then work 3-7 punch combos for another 15 and then work some two man drills.

The other two days were only sparring. You warmed up on your own, then put on the gear and did offense defense for 5 minutes each, then medium continuous sparring full gear for the rest of the class, switching partners, and sometimes breaking out the mat to do takedowns and full contact sparring. Often we would focus on close range fighting, since that was most unnatural for us. Some days we would just warm up and just go right away, skipping the offense defense and focus exercises. I was not as good as my little brother, who could easily go for 45 minutes continuously fighting sifu (not winning obviously, but not tiring either), but I could also go full speed for 20 minutes and more - the conditioning from going to sparring classes regularly was very very good. To get an idea of the intensity of the full contact sparring, many of us were also regular weightlifters - I am about 145 pounds and lift over 225 pounds in most directions, my brother is 200 pounds and lifts about the same in every direction except straight up - so we could and did dizzy people, although most often it was ourselves (no weight divisions in class). Oh and sifu was also 145 pounds and could bench over 315, so he had dynamite in his hands too.

Admittedly, the sparring days were the most sparse - there have been times when only me or my brother showed up at all! But typically there was about 6 people in those classes compared to over 20 on form days. My sifu was much more interested in sanshou and fighting, being formerly a sanshou fighter himself. I guess he also got disappointed with the lack of people dedicating themselves to learning to fight and ended up closing the school last year. But the sparring classes were very good and very intense.

My point is, I have heard that one of the other schools near my sifu's school is also similar in their class schedule - and I'm not sure the problem of kung fu schools lacking live partner training is that widespread. Maybe not every kung fu school is as intense, and part of the problem definitely is in the student interest, but I think most kung fu sifu's would like to do live partner training and sparring, as evidenced by the many instructors on this board. It really is up to the students, though, I think. If students show interest, then you guys can teach it!