ATTN: Wing Chuners & Taiji-ers

[Three Harmonies]

I have a request for some well written information on the physiological and mechanical reasons that tucking the pelvis/hips is so important in many styles of Wing Chung, Taiji, and other CMA systems.
Basically I am doing some research into the reasoning behind this physical structure that everyone claims is found in the "classics." So any help in regards to source material would also be appreciated.
Feel free to email me privately too.
THanks
Jake :)
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

[Meklorien]

I have a request for some well written information on the physiological and mechanical reasons that tucking the pelvis/hips is so important in many styles of Wing Chung, Taiji, and other CMA systems.
Basically I am doing some research into the reasoning behind this physical structure that everyone claims is found in the "classics." So any help in regards to source material would also be appreciated.
Feel free to email me privately too.
THanks
Jake :)
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

It helps align the hip girdle forward giving you better stability and limits the "spill" of your energy forward and downward. Lowers your stance and helps align the hips with the elbows.

If you've ever ridden a horse, it helps to understand the "horse" stance. It adds something to your leg work to have the pelvis tucked under.

I recall a DVD I ran across some years back by Chu Shong Tin. In it, he is giving some very sound demonstrations to a class on the subtle basics of proper alignment of the hips and elbows and such. Not a flashy DVD, but very sound instruction in it.

[Three Harmonies]

Thanks, but I am looking more for source material I can reference. Any help in that area?
Thanks
Jake :)

[drleungjohn]

Sorry to say you probably won't find it directly-theya re not written for martial arts in general,and what you seek in particular-
You would need to look for books on athletic performance,kinematics and kinesology-then try and relate that to Martial arts and "the classics-

First-let me say I am a Doctor,with a background in exercise physiology and sports medicine-and over 30 plus years in Chinese Martial Arts,WCK for most of them in particular-

The Pelvic tuck is an incredibly important link in the core muscles and spinal segements aligning into a stacked vertical column-this activates the pelvic muscles for balance,as well as all the waist muscles a s a girdle

The mistake I have seen in all my years,is that most tuck too far forward and lock the pelvis,opening the low back AND Locking the sacrum and hips-not good for movement in any direction-not good for the ligaments of the low back and knees,not good for neurologic firing

The Pelvic tuck too far forward makes the shoulders go too far backward,creating a slight imbalance-this imbalance cannot take forward pressure and many lose their position to frontal force,attacks,etc

The tuck is done to create a gyroscope of balance,not a dead post.

[Michael Dasargo]

Hey Jake,

Hope Seatlle is treating you well bro. As far as references go, NASM or ACSM may be a good investment. Specifically, the Performance Enhancement aspects of movment science and physiology. NASM definately helped me to articulate CMA in terms of western science.

Here's a quick insight I have on the posterior pelvic tilt.

Anything biomechanical, whether Taiji, Tang Lang, Karate, Golf, Footbal, etc, relies on static and dynamic structural stabilization for maximum force production.

Mass x Acceleration = Force Production (aka Fa Jing). The posterior pelvic tilt (ppt) creates a triangle with the thoracic spine as the apex, and an "invisible" base from the front of the shoulders towards the front of the hips. This triangle is the link between the triangle in the legs (where the knee is the apex, and the base line running from the butt to the heel), and the triangle in the arm (where the elbow is the apex, and the base between the shoulder and wrist). The base of all three triangles align to create "an immovable mountain"; where oncoming force receives "normal force" from the ground.

For every action, there is an equal or greater reaction. In this case, the oncoming force is directed to the ground, thus the effortless "normal force" used to sustain the posture vs. oncoming resistance.

If the hips are rolled forward (a.p.t. anterior pelvic tilt), then the triangles are no longer stabilized and oncoming force that meets the arms leaks out of the scapula, thus creating imbalance (aka becoming uprooted).

Defensively, the ppt creates a hollow space where the vulnerable areas of the torso are commonly exposed with a.p.t.

But then again, I could be just pulling this out of my tuck.

Be easy,
M.Dasargo
NASM PES

PS
I'd like to request an autographed poster for when you become rich and famous :p

[tjwingchun]

The Pelvic tuck is an incredibly important link in the core muscles and spinal segements aligning into a stacked vertical column-this activates the pelvic muscles for balance,as well as all the waist muscles as a girdle


Most succinct and definitive, nothing to argue with and an excellent lesson to anyone wishing to understand their stance.

Along with the 'pelvic tuck' I emphasize awareness of the posture at the top of the spine also, getting students to become conscious of their total spine structure, from coccyx to skull.

One of the main mistakes I see in Wing Chun is the 'chain punch slouch', this comes from students not having a target when 'air' punching and the subconsious brains wish to extend out as far as possible, rather than remain within the constraints of good stance and posture.

Jake, for the best example of the structure of the spine I would advise you to look at power lifting, not the action of lifting, but the final moment of holding the position while being judged whether legitimate or not. Although it is a stationary postion it is the strongest structure for the spine to be in, now transfer the specific details of how the spine is being used into the equation of how the stance is used in Wing Chun.

When we are striking, or using energy through our bodies, the spine is the link between the floor and the point of contact, the power produced by the lower half of the body needs to be linked to that of the top half, therefore the spine to be efficient in the energy transfer has to be at its strongest, not the 'weakest link' syndrome.

I had a student who was a competitive power lifter and he told me once he had learned his basic stance and understood it he increased his lifting by 5%, which is a substancial amount at his level.

The 'pelvic thrust' is a vital part in creating the 'awareness' of the spine, as is the lifting of the head, chest and shoulders, to 'feel' the structures involved. Balencing the back is analogous with a stack of half full plates, not safe at the best of times!

I have always for my research into Wing Chun looked into other sports/disciplines that have similar goals, use their theories and reasoning and relate it to my Wing Chun. From sports as diverse as football and snooker, I have listened/read what the professionals who have reached the top of their field have to say and analysed what they think was the secret to their success.

So my final piece of advice for the moment would be to look for references in other areas that can give you the reinforcement that you are after, if you wish Jake we can chat via msn. tjwingchun@hotmail.com

[Mr Punch]

...
You would need to look for books on athletic performance,kinematics and kinesology...Are any of those written in English? :D


The Pelvic tuck is an incredibly important link in the core muscles and spinal segements aligning into a stacked vertical column-this activates the pelvic muscles for balance,as well as all the waist muscles a s a girdleI'm trying to understand this believe me...! How does this 'stack' of spinal segments activate the pelvic muscles (and which ones particularly?!) any more than say a C-back in boxing or the kind of S-back that Erle Montaigue and various other tai-chi people talk about? Or than just being bolt-upright and not tucking your pelvis?


The mistake I have seen in all my years,is that most tuck too far forward and lock the pelvis,opening the low back AND Locking the sacrum and hips-not good for movement in any direction-not good for the ligaments of the low back and knees,not good for neurologic firingI can see that, and it fits with my experience. Except, do you have any links or refs to any studies which refer more to this neurological firing problem you just mentioned?


The Pelvic tuck too far forward makes the shoulders go too far backward,creating a slight imbalance-this imbalance cannot take forward pressure and many lose their position to frontal force,attacks,etcPlus it puts extra pressure on the rotator cuffs and therefore restricts movement in and connectivity through the shoulder... the shoulder blade digs in on the sagittal plane.


The tuck is done to create a gyroscope of balance,not a dead post.How so the gyroscope?


Mass x Acceleration = Force Production (aka Fa Jing). The posterior pelvic tilt (ppt) creates a triangle with the thoracic spine as the apex, and an "invisible" base from the front of the shoulders towards the front of the hips. This triangle is the link between the triangle in the legs (where the knee is the apex, and the base line running from the butt to the heel), and the triangle in the arm (where the elbow is the apex, and the base between the shoulder and wrist). The base of all three triangles align to create "an immovable mountain"; where oncoming force receives "normal force" from the ground.I can understand an invisible base if it has somethin glike gravity helping to wedge forces on the triangle down... but how does a tirangle based on say, the baseline between the shoulder and wrist work? There's nothing there! If you are saying the angle of the forearm is important, that's fine and true, but there is no triangle!

Plus, you're talking about triangles, which are 2D structures to explain a very 3d (and unevenly distributed 3D forces at that) dynamic. So how do the bases align? They're not together: they're going in different directions!


But then again, I could be just pulling this out of my tuck.LOL! :D That's another possibility! :D I've heard that position's good for that!

Me, I just punch things!

Cheers,

Mat.