ATTN: Wing Chuners & Taiji-ers

[Three Harmonies]

I have a request for some well written information on the physiological and mechanical reasons that tucking the pelvis/hips is so important in many styles of Wing Chung, Taiji, and other CMA systems.
Basically I am doing some research into the reasoning behind this physical structure that everyone claims is found in the "classics." So any help in regards to source material would also be appreciated.
Feel free to email me privately too.
THanks
Jake :)
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

[air]

One of the most basic reasons why you would tuck your butt is (tailbone) to relieve the tension in your knees and direct it to your thighs, there are other reasons but I'd just thought I would mention one

[air]

Oh ya and it helps align your spine correctly , If you were just trying to have good posture in general you should tuck.

[Blacktiger]

Yep - builds a stronger structure

[cjurakpt]

One of the most basic reasons why you would tuck your butt is (tailbone) to relieve the tension in your knees and direct it to your thighs, there are other reasons but I'd just thought I would mention one

could you explain the biomechanics of this please?

[cjurakpt]

Oh ya and it helps align your spine correctly , If you were just trying to have good posture in general you should tuck.

why do you think that this "aligns" the spine? also, please define "good posture"...

[cjurakpt]

Yep - builds a stronger structure

same question: please define "stronger structure" in functional terms...

[cjurakpt]

to pre-empt a bit: I think what needs to be done is to delineate exactly what is going on biomechanically when you "tuck the pelvis/hips"

first, this is a very imprecise description - it really doesn't tell you anything specfically about the biomechanics of the joints in question; also, the pelvs and hips though joined move very differently; when you do a "tuck", you are essentially performing a posterior pelvic tilt (PPT), accompanied by decreasing the lordosis of the lumbar spine; this effects the hip joints by actually placing them into a relatively, albeit slightly, increased degree of hip extension (because we are talking about the relative angles of the femurs to the innnominates); additionally, if we break down the pelvic girdle some more, you are posteriorly rotating the two iliacs, and placing the sacrum into relative extension or counter-nutation depending on the nomenclature you use: essentially, this means that the sacral base (the top part that attaches to L5) is moving posteriorly (and slightly superiorly or inferiorly, depending on if it originated anterior or posterior to the angle of rotation, which is a transverse axis), while the sacaral apex (the low part, S4) and coccyx are moving relatively anteriorly

now, if you want to get "optimal" spinal alignment (which really is not a particularly well defined concept in terms of functional, dynamic biomechanics), tucking the pelvis is actually not considered desireable, according to the people who spend a lot of time on this topic (Rolfers, Alexander Technique, osteopaths, PT's), because you've taken out the lumbar curve and caused changes all the way up the chain as a result

personally, in my experience, I think the PPT "position" is incorrect - to wit, we don't use it in the style of TCC I practice: we use a much different concept in terms of how to aling the spine, actually starting from the feet and building up; doing a PPT actually "locks out" the pelvic region and creates strain, as well as impedence of ground reaction force from moving up to the head; I mean, if it's such a great biomechanical position, try walking with a PPT and see how efficient you are; TBH, I don't know where it came from and why it got to be such an important component of various styles - from a biomechanical perspective, it really limis movement of the entire spine, interfering with correct shoulder girdle function and putting the occipital cranial base under significantly increased tension, because of how th skull has to reorient

I am sure that many people will disagree, that's fine - I am sure many people are very comfortable in this position as well, so hey, whatever works for them - but from a biomechanical perspective, it just don't add up...

then of course, there's the physiological perspective in terms of the muscles, nerves, and viscera...

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion only....

Tucking of the butt and tilting of the pelvis is a method of "locking in" of the upper and lower body for the purpose of generating "united" power. You will find that without the locking if you need to push hard the lumber/hip region becomes the weakest link, and you can only be as strong as your weakest link; where as once locked the body moves in a more united mannor. That's why you would see styles like WC, Bakmei and certain internal styles employing this energy method.

However, as you pointed out, over doing this limits your ability to flow and move, so for high level this becomes a weakness. So in my opinion, the intention of "unifying" is more important than the actually physically locking.

Cheers,
John

p.s. ah, this reminds me of my Bakmei friend who told me he could hold a coin between his butt cheeks and do the whole form without dropping the coin. So make sure you don't ask him for any spare change. ;)

[JohnnyMnemonic]

I have a request for some well written information on the physiological and mechanical reasons that tucking the pelvis/hips is so important in many styles of Wing Chung, Taiji, and other CMA systems.
Basically I am doing some research into the reasoning behind this physical structure that everyone claims is found in the "classics." So any help in regards to source material would also be appreciated.
Feel free to email me privately too.
THanks
Jake :)
three_harmonies@hotmail.com

What's in it for me? I am writing my own books on the subject. Why would I give that away? ;)

You have to know how the body really works before you can answer the question or understand the answer.

[Three Harmonies]

RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT! :rolleyes:

[JohnnyMnemonic]

RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT! :rolleyes:

I can make two guesses about that reply.

1) You are being sarcastic

2) You are purposefully not saying anything in the hopes I will talk more in order to prove what I say.


Why not just come out and talk to me? People still do that you know. Look someone in the face and talk about subjects of interest. No games, no psychological misdirection, just two regular people talking about something they both enjoy.

I have found that adults seem so caught up in power games, status plays and submission/dominance games that they never get anything done. That is my theory why adults go "stupid". You know how they say that after 30, no scientist ever invents anything new? They say it is because the energy of youth is gone.

I think it is because by the time they reach 30, they have been exposed to enough adults that they fall into the game of submission and dominance and forget all about science or whatever else they are interested in. I went to a science forums a few times to try to straighten people out. All I got was psychological games and power trips. Not a one of the scientists could focus on real science discussion. Their only concern was how did they appear to the other scientists.


I was going to give you a hint for free. It wouldn't do you any good I don't think. Most people don't have what it takes to figure this stuff out. An open mind, intellgence, free time, patience.....whatever it is. I could put the answer right in front of you and you wouldn't know it.

I think I will wait and see if there is another one word cryptic remark or not. That doesn't seem fun to me. I like to have fun.

[charyuop]

Personally I don't "tuck". I tried tucking when I started first and I could barely keep my balance, not to mention that to move a foot I had to kinda hop. If I align myself in the commencement without tucking and keeping that alignment during the whole form I have no problem of balance whatsoever.
As the master who showed me Tai Chi (he says to tuck) says, you should be able to kick with one of the feet in any stance....well, if I tuck I can't even lift the foot.
Right or wrong, it works for me.

[Three Harmonies]

I do not have time for silly little games. I posted a question and your reply was coy and assnine. If you have something to add, then feel free (again if you are confused about my question see post #1). If you are going to bait people and essentially say "I know the answer, but I am not going to tell." then bugger off.

Jake :cool:

[Michael Dasargo]

Hey Jake,

Hope Seatlle is treating you well bro. Here's a quick insight I have on the posterior pelvic tilt.

Anything biomechanical, whether Taiji, Tang Lang, Karate, Golf, Footbal, etc, relies on static and dynamic structural stabilization for maximum force production.

Mass x Acceleration = Force Production (aka Fa Jing). The posterior pelvic tilt (ppt) creates a triangle with the thoracic spine as the apex, and an "invisible" base from the front of the shoulders towards the front of the hips. This triangle is the link between the triangle in the legs (where the knee is the apex, and the base line running from the butt to the heel), and the triangle in the arm (where the elbow is the apex, and the base between the shoulder and wrist). The base of all three triangles align to create "an immovable mountain"; where oncoming force receives "normal force" from the ground.

For every action, there is an equal or greater reaction. In this case, the oncoming force is directed to the ground, thus the effortless "normal force" used to sustain the posture vs. oncoming resistance.

If the hips are rolled forward (a.p.t. anterior pelvic tilt), then the triangles are no longer stabilized and oncoming force that meets the arms leaks out of the scapula, thus creating imbalance (aka becoming uprooted).

Defensively, the ppt creates a hollow space where the vulnerable areas of the torso are commonly exposed with a.p.t.

But then again, I could be just pulling this out of my tuck.

Be easy,
M.Dasargo
NASM PES

PS
I'd like to request an autographed poster for when you become rich and famous :p

[JohnnyMnemonic]

I do not have time for silly little games.

That's a shame. Life is to be enjoyed. You must feel your life is on a stopwatch and every minute must be efficiently used. After a disaster happens in your life, you will realize that the only thing worth having in this life is fun. Memories of fun will trump memories of any other kind when you are sitting in your rocker.

You probably have been taught or perhaps you feel yourself that kung fu is a serious thing to be drilled at like being in the army. Kung Fu can be that way if that is what you want. You can be just as skilled, perhaps much more skilled, if you relax, take it easy, and enjoy your training.


I posted a question and your reply was coy and assnine.

Coy? Absolutely. I told you I like to have fun. Asinine? "marked by inexcusable failure to exercise intelligence or sound judgment"

Ouch! That is a harsh statement to make to a person offering to answer your question. Why the hate? You don't really want an answer? You want to search for it yourself? You are resentful that I already know the answer?




If you have something to add, then feel free (again if you are confused about my question see post #1).

Why would I help someone who just publicly called me asinine? Seriously? Where I live? If you want someone to help you out, you say nice things to them. Not insult them in front of the crowd.



If you are going to bait people and essentially say "I know the answer, but I am not going to tell." then bugger off.

Jake :cool:

Ok. I will "bugger off". Good luck searching out the answer on your own. It took me years and a little help from the good spirits to figure it out. Since you probably don't even believe in good spirits, I predict your search will be fruitless.

You really ought to lighten up. ;)

[YiLiQuan1]

Jake -

Don't sweat ol' JonnyMnemonic here... He's on several other threads trying to convince me and others that hard training is bad, martial arts aren't for fighting (they're for not-fighting), and that his psychic ability to see zombies and energy vampires is real.

He doesn't seem to know much beyond what he's read in books or seen in movies. Detailed discussions of technical specifics don't seem his cup of tea...

[Three Harmonies]

I dont sweat nothing on these boards. But thanks.
Jake :cool:

[lunghushan]

Why can't we all just get along?

[cjurakpt]

besides, he gets on Jake's case after doing the ol' "I know something you don't" dance, and then doubles back with the "oh well, I was GONNA tell you, but I didn't like how you answered me, so nyahhh..." he's suffering from delusions of grandeur that he's onto something "super secret" in regards to body posture or some such, but if he really "had it", he'd be maknng constructive posts, sharing his experience openly to other folks - he should go look at the "Tension" thread over on the tai chi board to get an idea of what it's like when people who have real understanding

anyway. I should re-clarify re: the PPT: it's a matter of degree - if you really tuck and fix, you lock out; if you do more of what I call a "potential" PPT, while you move towards that part of the pelvic range, you aren't over-comitted to it, which is important, because you really want to be fluid, which means that sometimes ou will PPT and other times be more towards the anterior tilt - it just depends; but I think one of the reasons a lot of TCC gets stuck on the tuck is because of the rooting effect it has - it certainly increases your root, that's true; hoever, what you loose is the oppsite skill, which is the "hin gung" or lightness skill - this is the jumping / spinning aspect of TCC that is much less frequently taught and practiced - it's why you have jumping / spinning (alone and with kicks) in the older versions of the form - hin gung is very important in TCC - for covering ground quickly (remember all those Yang Lu Chan stories of him covering like 5 football fields in the blink of an eye?), for expressing energy, etc. - but most practicioners seem to over emphasize rooting, because it's the easier of the two skills to work; but if all you do is root, you start to adversely effect the system in general, because you are contantly "dropping down", which in excess is not a great idea, because when you do this you detonify pelvic floor by putting it on passive slack, and over time this can degrade it's ability to act as a dynamic base for the pelvis, and discoordinates the movement of pelvic floor with the respiratory diaphragm; - the hin gung brightens things up, so to speak, "pulling" up on the pelvic floor, increasing lymphatic flow out of the pelvic basin, and expresses the opposite energy - and you cannot do that with a PPT - that's the APT, which engenders "going up", because, as one person correctly pointed out, if you try that while rooting, you loose the root - but that is exactly what you want to do when you do hin gung...

[JohnnyMnemonic]

besides, he gets on Jake's case after doing the ol' "I know something you don't" dance, and then doubles back with the "oh well, I was GONNA tell you, but I didn't like how you answered me, so nyahhh..." he's suffering from delusions of grandeur that he's onto something "super secret" in regards to body posture or some such, but if he really "had it", he'd be maknng constructive posts, sharing his experience openly to other folks - he should go look at the "Tension" thread over on the tai chi board to get an idea of what it's like when people who have real understanding


U guys are going to force me to tell you something interesting aren't you? If I don't prove what I say, you will just keep repeating these falsehoods until they are accepted.

The same way Bush and Blair kept repeating "There are WMD in Iraq" until people believed it. Even though it was a total lie.

[YiLiQuan1]

U guys are going to force me to tell you something interesting aren't you? If I don't prove what I say, you will just keep repeating these falsehoods until they are accepted.

If you claim to be able to fly, be prepared for many people to require proof.

You claim to have some hidden knowledge, gleaned no doubt from endless viewings of Hong Kong cinema offerings. Those who have engaged you on this are simply saying "pony up."

[cjurakpt]

U guys are going to force me to tell you something interesting aren't you? If I don't prove what I say, you will just keep repeating these falsehoods until they are accepted.

The same way Bush and Blair kept repeating "There are WMD in Iraq" until people believed it. Even though it was a total lie.

personally, I don't care if you say anything at all: if you have the "TRUTH", then hey man, bully for you; I know what I know, whther your "truth" is different from mine neither validates or invalidates either; besides, you can't prove a thing about yourself here anyway, because whatever you say no one can actually verify it; same goes for me and everyone else; what you seem to be totally clueless about is that the point of this forum is to DISCUSS and SHARE personal experiences, not to dangle carrots infront of people like you know something they don't; that's just being a jerk - so do us all a favor - DON'T reveal anything, don't say anything, just go away and feel superior in your special knowledge

oooo - I haven't fed a troll in so long! I was doing so well - but I slipped up; but I don't care, it feels GOOOD!!!

[lunghushan]

They need more MMA fight nights so we can settle arguments like gentlemen. :)

[JohnnyMnemonic]

what you seem to be totally clueless about is that the point of this forum is to DISCUSS and SHARE personal experiences, not to dangle carrots infront of people like you know something they don't; that's just being a jerk -


That is your opinion. You are a robotic kind of person or a demanding kind of person that wants people to behave as machines. You want to put in a quarter and get what you want. People are not machines.

Your way of thinking and dealing with people is unhealthy. You make yourself and the people who you place your demands on unhealthy. My way is healthy. You don't have to beleive me. Try it yourself. Think of something funny and laugh. Think of some young relative of yours and smile. Doesn't your whole body feel good when you do that?

My way of "dangling" carrots was how teachers used to teach in class waaaay back in the good old days. It was called challenging the intellect of the student. Nowadays though I guess students are raised as thugs who bully the teacher into a good grade or the knowledge they desire.

Think about it. Stop fighting and being close minded and think about it. If you are rational, there is no way you can deny what I say about demanding being unhealthy and laughter and fun being healthy.

[cjurakpt]

That is your opinion. You are a robotic kind of person or a demanding kind of person that wants people to behave as machines. You want to put in a quarter and get what you want. People are not machines.

Your way of thinking and dealing with people is unhealthy. You make yourself and the people who you place your demands on unhealthy. My way is healthy. You don't have to beleive me. Try it yourself. Think of something funny and laugh. Think of some young relative of yours and smile. Doesn't your whole body feel good when you do that?

My way of "dangling" carrots was how teachers used to teach in class waaaay back in the good old days. It was called challenging the intellect of the student. Nowadays though I guess students are raised as thugs who bully the teacher into a good grade or the knowledge they desire.

Think about it. Stop fighting and being close minded and think about it. If you are rational, there is no way you can deny what I say about demanding being unhealthy and laughter and fun being healthy.

yes, thinking about it, must stop fighting, can't deny what he said...

oh, BTW - BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

actually dude, telling me to laugh - what do you think I've been doing since reading your first post - oh wait! that was your plan, wasn't it? to get me to drop my austere and oppressive ways, and lighten up, wasn't it? oh thankyothankyouthankyouthankyou;

on a "serious" note, it's funny: I basically tell the guy in the most non-judegemental way (it's true, you can't deny it) that if he's got his version of the truth, that's cool ["if you have the "TRUTH", then hey man, bully for you; I know what I know, whther your "truth" is different from mine neither validates or invalidates either"] - in fact, I didn't critique what he claims to know at all - I just was pointing out that it's kinda ba form to dangle the way he does - but then, he comes back with his "well, i'm just teaching like they did in the old days" - well, actually, in the old days, nobody taught unless they were asked (llike the Buddha - you had to wait until about 3 AM and ask him 3 times before he even opened his mother); so, it's rather presumptious to assume that anyone asked to be taught by you in the first place; we are not your students, chum (although, of course, our knowledge is DOUBTLESSLY much inferior to yours, so we really all ought to be); furthermore, he DEFINITIVELY KNOWS that my "way" is unhealthy and his is...talk about deluded;

bro, I think you are the one who needs to lighten up and laugh - don't take yourself so seriously; again, let me be clear - whatever you "got", that's awesome - if it makes your life more liveable, happier, etc., congrats, really; and if you feel like sharing, that's cool; if you don't, no loss to anyone, honestly; just to show ya my heart's in the right place, I;m gonna let you have the last word...

[JohnnyMnemonic]

yes, thinking about it, must stop fighting, can't deny what he said...

oh, BTW - BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

actually dude, telling me to laugh - what do you think I've been doing since reading your first post - oh wait! that was your plan, wasn't it? to get me to drop my austere and oppressive ways, and lighten up, wasn't it? oh thankyothankyouthankyouthankyou;

on a "serious" note, it's funny: I basically tell the guy in the most non-judegemental way (it's true, you can't deny it) that if he's got his version of the truth, that's cool ["if you have the "TRUTH", then hey man, bully for you; I know what I know, whther your "truth" is different from mine neither validates or invalidates either"] - in fact, I didn't critique what he claims to know at all - I just was pointing out that it's kinda ba form to dangle the way he does - but then, he comes back with his "well, i'm just teaching like they did in the old days" - well, actually, in the old days, nobody taught unless they were asked (llike the Buddha - you had to wait until about 3 AM and ask him 3 times before he even opened his mother); so, it's rather presumptious to assume that anyone asked to be taught by you in the first place; we are not your students, chum (although, of course, our knowledge is DOUBTLESSLY much inferior to yours, so we really all ought to be); furthermore, he DEFINITIVELY KNOWS that my "way" is unhealthy and his is...talk about deluded;

bro, I think you are the one who needs to lighten up and laugh - don't take yourself so seriously; again, let me be clear - whatever you "got", that's awesome - if it makes your life more liveable, happier, etc., congrats, really; and if you feel like sharing, that's cool; if you don't, no loss to anyone, honestly; just to show ya my heart's in the right place, I;m gonna let you have the last word...


The style of writing exhibited by you and YiLiQuan1 is remarkably similar.

[YiLiQuan1]

The style of writing exhibited by you and YiLiQuan1 is remarkably similar.

What's your point? That neither of us are going to defer to your supposed superiority without proof thereof? That neither of us are willing to acquiesce to "the Truth" you claim to possess without convincing?

You talk a lot, but say very little...

[imperialtaichi]

They need more MMA fight nights so we can settle arguments like gentlemen. :)



Man, I'm having such a laugh. Sorry Jake, your post was such a good thread starter, it is a shame it turned into this...

Anyway, on a serious note, what Lunghushan suggested is not a bad idea. Theory is one thing, being able to apply it is another. It is definitely beneficial if we could get together and test run and explore different theories and methods.

Cheers,
John

[lunghushan]

These three threads seem to have been taken over by this argument. There actually are MMA fight nights around, but they don't have good blood testing like they do for boxing or other professional fights so it's probably a little bit risky to get involved with those.